We muslims are listening but unfortunately there does not seem to be such a high intrest in the muslim community when it comes to this intellectual stuff. Some of us are following everything closely but right now the the oppression and genocide that is done to the muslims around the world is what is garnering most attention and the importance of local community building.
The "oppression and genocide" on Muslims? More like the reverse. In fact, most of the " oppression and genocide" are done by Muslim regime on their own people. Piece of advice, Stop blaming others for your community predicament when they are the result of attempts to impose Islamic dominance through oppression and violence against non-believers, as dictated by Quranic commands and Hadith practices. Stop playing the victim when others push back in response to your community's actions against them.
LIES, LIES, LIES First there's NO "genocide of muslims" it's the muslims who are doing ALL the KILLING and SOLELY responsible for ALL the DEATHS, which are presently NOT of genocidal levels that muslims themselves committed in their FAKE "war success" stories (badr, Banu Qurayza, etc) and in actual history starting with the abbasids. It's also a LIE muslim are NOT listening to these discussions and views in a non-ordinary perspective, they are. The only problem is they are listening in to figure out what NEW LIES to CONCOCT in conjunction with relentless "victim card" machinations and trying to SUPPRESS TRUTH via politicking, migration and RODENT-LEVEL breeding and INHUMANE inbreeding. Without LIES, islam DIES, as explained by @adamseeker
Islam enforces TAQLID. The mullahs don't want non-scholar Muslims to study the sources. 'Taqlid' is defined as "to take the statement of someone without knowing the evidence." Q-L-D , means to imitate. The term is believed to have originated from the idea of allowing oneself to be led "by the collar". Taqlid is often called 'blind following'. The one making taqlid - the muqallid - resigns his affair to the scholar under whom he is blindly performing taqlid. Thus he is, so to speak, like someone being ‘led by the collar’. Ordinary Muslims are told they will lose their faith if they look into the origins of Islam. This is happening as ordinary Muslims study Islam's obscure origins and discover much inconsistency. Yassir Qadhi called this 'Holes in the Narrative.' He said, 'These are not matters you share with the public ... it's not WISE ... it's not HIKMAH!'
The absence of archaeological findings (ancient remains) such as tools, pottery, jewelry, or stone walls in present day Mecca has unquestionably undermined the belief that Mecca existed before the 10th century A.D. The non-existence of any historical artifacts (items, relics) in Mecca is too much for Muslims to overcome.
You cant make millions of people to make anual peligrinage to another city just by slaping your fingers . imposdible if anybody tried not all people would just say oooly lets go there . History would have mentioned that There were people who resisted and refused and fought
@@mhamedkhattabi5863do you know Las Vegas ? In the middle of nowhere. Never existed 200. Years. Ago. Millions of people go there. Monaco N York same South Africa build in 100 years. Chinese cities. Hongkong. Batavia name it.
@ben0298 Quranist muslim here. We are paying attention and we are also studying modern critical research on the Bible. However our problem is that the averahe sunny muslim is not intrested in these intellectual aspects. Their focus is more on community building.
It was interesting in the YQ interview with Mo Hijab, that what YQ was saying was absolute news to him. So a devout Muslim who reads and memorises the Quran everyday and who’s career centralises around his religion and defending its claims, had absolutely no idea there were multiple Qurans and that it is impossible to reproduce one word for word. And then being told not to ask in public because it’s too controversial for the average Muslim to know about it. So a grown man and Muslim who actually studies theology academically, was completely ignorant of it. So I suppose the point is that Muslims don’t appear to want to apply any critical or logical thinking about anything they’ve been made to believe. Islam’s historical integrity hangs by so fine a thread that Muslims daren’t research for fear that everything they’ve been taught to believe might come down like a deck of cards. Blindly defending the indefensible, being more palatable than knowing that their religion is the work of charlatans.
Good observation. How could M. Hijab not know about the multiple Korans? Doesn't he have a PhD? How did he even do that? He's such a big oaf and a fool.
Mecca could not have existed as a large commercial caravan city in the 7th century. Main reasons for this fact are: 1) Mecca is not an oasis, so there is no surface water (only a well, known as zamzam which is clearly unsufficient and inappropriate for watering many caravan camels) 2) Mecca is not shown on any map or any document at that time or even previously 3) Mecca is located down of Hidjaz plateau and could therefore not be located on the caravan route which is located more than 1000 m above on the plateau (eg the city of Taeef is located at an altitude of ca 2000 m while Mecca is at 300 m) 4) there were no archeological remains or artefacts (coins, potteries, ruins, bones etc) discovered in Mecca dating from before circa year 700 It is impossible that a large city would leave no trace at all of its past 5) no agriculture whatsoever is possible in this wild rocky desert location, how could a large city survive in such hostile environment ?
Sorry that Jay didn’t say much! Ummayad and Abbasid Islam are two separate things undoubtedly. More definitive research is required in the first 70 years of Islam
This is the full panel discussion. To see other presentations from this conferences, look at the NAPC playlist on this channel. I will eventually upload the remaining presentations.
The hypothesis that Mecca initially became important as an Ismail/Hagar pilgrimage site before eventually becoming a recreation of Jerusalem, either accidentally or even accidentally-on-purpose, is very interesting.
Never happened. It's 1,400 km beer Sheba to Mecca Say 30km day 46 days Hagar had only a bottle of water, walked for 46 days? Really More likely Umayid Unitarian Christian Abd al Malik tried to destroy the pagan Kaaba in Petra Zubair took the stone and fled south More likely
Mecca is a Farsi word " محل کاروان - mahale-kaarevan " which means the "Caravan Location". Kaaba is " جعبه - jabbeh " which means "Qube / Box". Saffa is " زنها - zanha " means "women". Marva is " مردها - mardha " means "men". Baqarah is " اثر و قباله - ghabaleh " means "traces and property deed", Kaaba and Al-Aqsa were they were keeping the property deeds and were witnessing and registering the marriages as well which led them to become woman/sex trafficking for women and slavery for men. Quran is " کارگران - karegaran " means workers [mainly well diggers and construction workers] and the Turban was the first Safety Helmet to protect them from falling dirt and rocks as well as keeping their head and hair clean and cover their mouth and nose for dust. Turban became the symbol of a man who has a skill, job and income.
@inesantunes9594 islam is completely equivalent to fashism. Fashist Italy was unsuccessful because Europe graduated beyond a Renaissance, an enlightenment era, two industrial revolutions, and modernization. Otherwise, Italian fashism would've become just like islam. Europe was too advanced for fashism to take power. Arabs, on the other hand, are stuck thousands of years in the past. Arabs haven't even achieved a Magna Carta! They're culturally stuck- thousands of years behind the rest of the world. This is why they welcome and LOVE fashism and islam.
Mecca is a Farsi word " محل کاروان - mahale-kaarevan " which means the "Caravan Location". Kaaba is " جعبه - jabbeh " which means "Qube / Box". Saffa is " زنها - zanha " means "women". Marva is " مردها - mardha " means "men". Baqarah is " اثر و قباله - ghabaleh " means "traces and property deed", Kaaba and Al-Aqsa were they were keeping the property deeds and were witnessing and registering the marriages as well which led them to become woman/sex trafficking for women and slavery for men. Quran is " کارگران - karegaran " means workers [mainly well diggers and construction workers] and the Turban was the first Safety Helmet to protect them from falling dirt and rocks as well as keeping their head and hair clean and cover their mouth and nose for dust. Turban became the symbol of a man who has a skill, job and income.
Paul, there is absolutely no mention of Jerusalem in the Quran. Or Baytul Muqaddis (Bayt Ha Mikdash in Hebrew). Baytullah (house of Allah) is not Jerusalem. Jay and Robert - the verse eaten by the goat is not about wife beating or adult suckling. The silly hadith about the goat eating a Quran verse refers to stoning adulterers to death. All you great scholars MUST provide clear references to the Quran when you speak about the Quran. Otherwise it is hearsay. There is no muhammad mentioned in the Quran. There are four mentions of muhammadun and muhammadin which are adjectives (praiseworthy). At best it is a simple noun (praiseworthy person). There is no proper noun al-muhammad anywhere in the Quran. The name of Sura 47 was changed from Sura al Qital to Sura al-Muhammad. It was a much later innovation. Please refer the so called Mecca words in the Quran. For example "bi batni makkata" does not mean "in the middle of Mecca". It means "in the bowels of intrigue". Likewise 'mukaan wa tasdiyyan' means 'intrigue and interference with their hands'. Makata / mukaan refers intrigue. In Sura 3:96 the word Bakka is not Mecca. Period. Bakka means with deep conviction, sorrow, effort, sweat and toil. You find it in the Book of Psalms "the valley of Bacca". Odon LaFontaine, the Quran is a Nestorian Christian document. The entire Quran is about Christo-tokos versus Theo-tokos. Archbishop Nestorius was present at the Council of Ephesus in 431AD where he was condemned for his insistence on "Christotokos". It was during the reign of Roman Emperor Theodosius II. Ephesus is also home to the story of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus who were discovered during the time of same Theodosius II. Archbishop Nestorius was also present. In Sura 18, the Quran mentions the sleepers of the cave. These were the same Sleepers of Ephesus. Refer Sura 18:22 - the "muhammad character" was present at the time they discovered the sleepers inside the cave. Sura 18:22 " Some would say, "They were three; their dog being the fourth," while others would say, "Five; the sixth being their dog," as they guessed. Others said, "Seven," and the eighth was their dog. Say, "My Lord is the best knower of their number." Only a few knew the correct number. THEREFORE DO NOT ARGUE WITH THEM, JUST GO ALONG WITH THEM. You need not consult anyone about this." Do not argue with who? Who is them? Them refers to the people who were arguing about how many boys there were inside the cave. This does not refer to 7th century Mecca. (It did not exist anyway. There was also no Muhammad). This refers to the people in Ephesus. They argued about the sleepers in the cave. The "muhammad-character" was present at Ephesus. Archbishop Nestorius was present at Ephesus. Christotokos versus Theotokos. CAN SOMEONE PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO ODON, PAUL, ROBERT, JAY, MEL etc. Thank you.
'There is absolutely no mention of Jerusalem in the Qur'an...' Not true! Even on the traditional Islamic interpretation, the Qur'an mentions the Holy Land, Jerusalem and the temple on numerous occasions. The episodes set in the palaces of David and of Solomon must be assumed to have taken place in their Jerusalem palaces (mentioned in the Bible), the annunciation of a son to Zechariah, the upbringing of Mary, the selection of a spouse for Mary, and the breathing of life into her womb are all clearly set in the temple. The masjid of the Banu Israel in 17.7 is generally (correctly) assumed to be the temple, and also their houses in Q 17.5. And the Qur'an's night journey of Q 17.1 is conventionally believed to be a journey to Jerusalem's Temple Mount (incorrectly; it is actually Muhammad's journey *away from* Jerusalem). These are just the instances that the Islamic tradition recognises. There are many more. Even your calling Jerusalem the Bayt al-Miqdash, the Holy House, is a sign that proto-Islam recognised the temple as the Sacred/Ancient/House, Allah's House, mentioned in the Qur'an dozens of times. Why else would you call it by that name? So why do you say that Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Qur'an? Have you even read it?
@@PaulDdAEllis there is no mention og the name jerusalem > jerusalem is over 3,0000 years old there is no mention of jerusalem by name in the quran > you can lie and desieve people > but islam is a copy paste>
After Muhammad's death, the Meccans changed the name Isaac in Suras 2:125 and 127 for the name Ishmael and invented the story about Abraham taking Ishmael to their black rock in Mecca, so that pilgrims would continue to visit Mecca. THAT IS THE MAIN REASON
The word Qibla, could be something related with Kopura or Kovil in Indian context meaning the temples or temple towers which normally built by a king. So I am seeing everything political, the Arab fighting against the Romans, Jewish domination and Sasanian kings, dominated them and wrote a book for them to further their expansions.
If you are a beginner of history and would like to get started, are there any good books you’d recommend? Please not to heavy reading to keep the interest up. Thank you!
I heard ZamZam is not a well but a rain watercollector for about 50 people. The water now is artificcial. They digged deep water structures. And: Abraham has 2 fathers : Azar and Tera.
The meaning of 'The Believers' Movement' from before there was a Quran is that Arabs were called to replace the Romans and Persians and rule the world. The motive for doing so is that the Romans and Persians were 'unclean' ... religiously 'polluted'. The method to wrest overlordship from the Roman and Persian empires was JIHAD ... the 'STRUGGLE' to impose the eternal Laws of Allah. The Quran was written by Abd al Malik to justify his dynasty and his Umayyad Empire. These three (meaning, motive and method) are the essential elements of Islam as an imperial system of governance (Arabic: 'DEEN').
Heraclius along with Salman Farsi played a major role which is mentioned in Islamic sources but largely ignored in western scholarships. You have to take into account the power ballance between The Sassanid Persian Empire and Byzantine Roman Empire. Then you have to see the cause of success of an empire. For the Assyrian empire it was divide and conquer, for the Roman empire it was create a banana state with a puppet dictator, for the Persian empire, it was the pony Express. Heraclius was able to tip the balance of power the Roman way. Now you know the rest of the history.
i'm guessing jeddah came about to control east/west trade that went via egypt and sudan through the red sea to the indian ocean, taking over from venetians that used this route
Clearly with all these great minds all together in one place it would be so easy for them to produce a chapter like one of the Quran’s chapter and shut Muslims up once and for all
Mecca is a Farsi word " محل کاروان - mahale-kaarevan " which means the "Caravan Location". Kaaba is " جعبه - jabbeh " which means "Qube / Box". Saffa is " زنها - zanha " means "women". Marva is " مردها - mardha " means "men". Baqarah is " اثر و قباله - ghabaleh " means "traces and property deed", Kaaba and Al-Aqsa were they were keeping the property deeds and were witnessing and registering the marriages as well which led them to become woman/sex trafficking for women and slavery for men. Quran is " کارگران - karegaran " means workers [mainly well diggers and construction workers] and the Turban was the first Safety Helmet to protect them from falling dirt and rocks as well as keeping their head and hair clean and cover their mouth and nose for dust. Turban became the symbol of a man who has a skill, job and income.
Mohammed is not a person as the pre old Torah which had the word mohad Mohamed and other spellings were old Coptic Aramaic for saying saviour massaiya so Mohamed is arabic word from old languages for the coming of mohad mohmet mem-ha-med-da the name saying to he coming of the saviour masaiya who is jesus
As arrogant as European am in Africa in a town so ancient yet no map has ever recorded it bit the proof of our being here for years is the language we constructed with time its distnct and diff from everywhereelse on the planet the arabs speak arabic in arabia let them tell there story
People kill in the name of this story. All the most active terrorist organisations in the world are Islamic. It’s a political ideology that indoctrinates children. A system of social conditioning that mandates supremacy over all mankind.
Mecca is a Farsi word " محل کاروان - mahale-kaarevan " which means the "Caravan Location". Kaaba is " جعبه - jabbeh " which means "Qube / Box". Saffa is " زنها - zanha " means "women". Marva is " مردها - mardha " means "men". Baqarah is " اثر و قباله - ghabaleh " means "traces and property deed", Kaaba and Al-Aqsa were they were keeping the property deeds and were witnessing and registering the marriages as well which led them to become woman/sex trafficking for women and slavery for men. Quran is " کارگران - karegaran " means workers [mainly well diggers and construction workers] and the Turban was the first Safety Helmet to protect them from falling dirt and rocks as well as keeping their head and hair clean and cover their mouth and nose for dust. Turban became the symbol of a man who has a skill, job and income.
A people who look like you came to Africa with the same argument and to the natives and aboriginals that they discovered Africa and all its rivers and mountains naming tham after their kings
First , explain clearly talking donkeys, boats carrying loads of animals and pregnant virgins.........up to................undead people walking the streets of Jerusalem.
Mecca is a Farsi word " محل کاروان - mahale-kaarevan " which means the "Caravan Location". Kaaba is " جعبه - jabbeh " which means "Qube / Box". Saffa is " زنها - zanha " means "women". Marva is " مردها - mardha " means "men". Baqarah is " اثر و قباله - ghabaleh " means "traces and property deed", Kaaba and Al-Aqsa were they were keeping the property deeds and were witnessing and registering the marriages as well which led them to become woman/sex trafficking for women and slavery for men. Quran is " کارگران - karegaran " means workers [mainly well diggers and construction workers] and the Turban was the first Safety Helmet to protect them from falling dirt and rocks as well as keeping their head and hair clean and cover their mouth and nose for dust. Turban became the symbol of a man who has a skill, job and income.
Why you didn't invite Mohamed Almasiah to this discussion. He is well knowledgeable in this area. Almasiah worked with Gerd Puin on the San'a manuscripts. He also wrote a book called, "The Early History of Islam." He busted the myth and he has some solid evidence to back his claims, such as who Muhammad really was and where he truly came from.
@IslamicOrigins Of course the truth is not an enemy to any sane secular human being! The truth is only an enemy to the Christians, Jews, Sunnis, Shiite & Sectarians and all man-made religions! _oeace_
@@Hadeed20 Maybe you have a different opinion but I'm being perfectly honest. The "lying" culture that exists in Islam is not what we are about. We are motivated by getting at the truth. The truth is what we seek.
@ your motivated to destroy Islam and promote Christianity. Very clear from how you approach this conversion. Your reference Christian sources with sanctity and disregard all Islamic sources. The floor was filled with people from former colonial countries who already tried this technique before. Ask the French guy how it worked in Algeria or the Brit how it worked in India and Nigeria What did Paul say in Philipians “Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in that I rejoice.” If you can lie to propagate Christianity you wouldn’t mind. But Islam presents a throne in the Christian psyche I remember that one guy claiming Muhammad never existed. We’ll keep guys name alive and you will see many Muhammad in your life. Lie all you want Islam will be here until the end of days. May god guide those who seek his guidance
I would guess this would be a joke if I didnt watch more.... 1. For christians in the panel, trying these spins, all these kinds of theories are already thrown on the bible, so the incostistensy is ridiculous 2. Dan Browns Meca theory is debunked and not accepted by western historians 3. Zem zem well is not the only well in Meca, hehehe 4. If a well is a potential cure for ilness, it doesnt mean its free of sand particles in it, just like any other water, therefore filtering, .... duuuh 5. Saying Meca didnt exist until 750 with the abasids is nuts, all sources that we have mention Meca and all that comes with it prior to 750 Ex. Muwetta of Enes ibn Malik This is like a big conspiracy stuff out of a movie
Not much evidence offered. Show me manuscripts verifiably dated to before 750 and I will believe you, if they existed, we'd know about it. But dawahists are silent about them. Says it all.
@@IslamicOrigins He gave the Muwatta as an example of historical sources which talk about Mecca, but it's a hadith collection and not even written before 750 AD! This is pure confirmation bias!
![[SFM] Risky Recital](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RzNkY1_Nk3o/mqdefault.jpg)
We muslims are listening but unfortunately there does not seem to be such a high intrest in the muslim community when it comes to this intellectual stuff. Some of us are following everything closely but right now the the oppression and genocide that is done to the muslims around the world is what is garnering most attention and the importance of local community building.
The "oppression and genocide" on Muslims? More like the reverse. In fact, most of the " oppression and genocide" are done by Muslim regime on their own people.
Piece of advice, Stop blaming others for your community predicament when they are the result of attempts to impose Islamic dominance through oppression and violence against non-believers, as dictated by Quranic commands and Hadith practices. Stop playing the victim when others push back in response to your community's actions against them.
LIES, LIES, LIES
First there's NO "genocide of muslims" it's the muslims who are doing ALL the KILLING and SOLELY responsible for ALL the DEATHS, which are presently NOT of genocidal levels that muslims themselves committed in their FAKE "war success" stories (badr, Banu Qurayza, etc) and in actual history starting with the abbasids.
It's also a LIE muslim are NOT listening to these discussions and views in a non-ordinary perspective, they are. The only problem is they are listening in to figure out what NEW LIES to CONCOCT in conjunction with relentless "victim card" machinations and trying to SUPPRESS TRUTH via politicking, migration and RODENT-LEVEL breeding and INHUMANE inbreeding.
Without LIES, islam DIES, as explained by @adamseeker
@economician, did you mean musIims trying to cause genocide to all non-muslims around the world?
Christians and other Sects are being ethnically cleansed. Empire does not care
Islam enforces TAQLID. The mullahs don't want non-scholar Muslims to study the sources. 'Taqlid' is defined as "to take the statement of someone without knowing the evidence." Q-L-D , means to imitate. The term is believed to have originated from the idea of allowing oneself to be led "by the collar". Taqlid is often called 'blind following'. The one making taqlid - the muqallid - resigns his affair to the scholar under whom he is blindly performing taqlid. Thus he is, so to speak, like someone being ‘led by the collar’. Ordinary Muslims are told they will lose their faith if they look into the origins of Islam. This is happening as ordinary Muslims study Islam's obscure origins and discover much inconsistency. Yassir Qadhi called this 'Holes in the Narrative.' He said, 'These are not matters you share with the public ... it's not WISE ... it's not HIKMAH!'
The absence of archaeological findings (ancient remains) such as tools, pottery, jewelry, or stone walls in present day Mecca has unquestionably undermined the belief that Mecca existed before the 10th century A.D. The non-existence of any historical artifacts (items, relics) in Mecca is too much for Muslims to overcome.
You cant make millions of people to make anual peligrinage to another city just by slaping your fingers . imposdible if anybody tried not all people would just say oooly lets go there . History would have mentioned that There were people who resisted and refused and fought
@@mhamedkhattabi5863do you know Las Vegas ?
In the middle of nowhere.
Never existed
200. Years. Ago.
Millions of people go there. Monaco N York same
South Africa build in 100 years. Chinese cities. Hongkong.
Batavia name it.
There is zero historical evidence for moehumded ever being in mecca or medinah, zero...
There is zero historical evidence for moehumded ever being in mecca or medinah, zero
Their mental gymnstics are unpresedented. "Everything that goes against the Qur'an is false"
Cognitive dissonance 100%
Thank you all of you and others💪✝️.
This is good for Muslims. This is good for us all!
I wonder if any muslims are actually paying attention 🤔 i would argue this stuff is devastating for Islam
@ben0298
Quranist muslim here. We are paying attention and we are also studying modern critical research on the Bible. However our problem is that the averahe sunny muslim is not intrested in these intellectual aspects. Their focus is more on community building.
Uh wow . Nice Team. For the Win!
Islam, as we our it today, evolved in the 8th thru 9th centuries in asia.
It was interesting in the YQ interview with Mo Hijab, that what YQ was saying was absolute news to him. So a devout Muslim who reads and memorises the Quran everyday and who’s career centralises around his religion and defending its claims, had absolutely no idea there were multiple Qurans and that it is impossible to reproduce one word for word. And then being told not to ask in public because it’s too controversial for the average Muslim to know about it.
So a grown man and Muslim who actually studies theology academically, was completely ignorant of it.
So I suppose the point is that Muslims don’t appear to want to apply any critical or logical thinking about anything they’ve been made to believe. Islam’s historical integrity hangs by so fine a thread that Muslims daren’t research for fear that everything they’ve been taught to believe might come down like a deck of cards. Blindly defending the indefensible, being more palatable than knowing that their religion is the work of charlatans.
Good observation. How could M. Hijab not know about the multiple Korans? Doesn't he have a PhD? How did he even do that? He's such a big oaf and a fool.
Points well put.
Mecca could not have existed as a large commercial caravan city in the 7th century.
Main reasons for this fact are:
1) Mecca is not an oasis, so there is no surface water (only a well, known as zamzam which is clearly unsufficient and inappropriate for watering many caravan camels)
2) Mecca is not shown on any map or any document at that time or even previously
3) Mecca is located down of Hidjaz plateau and could therefore not be located on the caravan route which is located more than 1000 m above on the plateau (eg the city of Taeef is located at an altitude of ca 2000 m while Mecca is at 300 m)
4) there were no archeological remains or artefacts (coins, potteries, ruins, bones etc) discovered in Mecca dating from before circa year 700
It is impossible that a large city would leave no trace at all of its past
5) no agriculture whatsoever is possible in this wild rocky desert location, how could a large city survive in such hostile environment ?
Where are the Muslim scholars to answer these questions? I guess the crickets will answer for them.
What a great collection of minds and ideas. Bravo, presenters!
A bunch of ignorants
Awesome - may The Lord bless them and keep them.
This is where the uncensored Quran of saint Murad helps
Sorry that Jay didn’t say much! Ummayad and Abbasid Islam are two separate things undoubtedly. More definitive research is required in the first 70 years of Islam
Yes
Agree 100%
Where can I watch the full thing
This is the full panel discussion. To see other presentations from this conferences, look at the NAPC playlist on this channel. I will eventually upload the remaining presentations.
Looking forward to further uploads
Land Mark Conference...World will be a different place after this.
Awesome
The hypothesis that Mecca initially became important as an Ismail/Hagar pilgrimage site before eventually becoming a recreation of Jerusalem, either accidentally or even accidentally-on-purpose, is very interesting.
Never happened.
It's 1,400 km beer Sheba to Mecca
Say 30km day
46 days
Hagar had only a bottle of water, walked for 46 days? Really
More likely
Umayid Unitarian Christian Abd al Malik tried to destroy the pagan Kaaba in Petra
Zubair took the stone and fled south
More likely
Mecca is a Farsi word " محل کاروان - mahale-kaarevan " which means the "Caravan Location".
Kaaba is " جعبه - jabbeh " which means "Qube / Box".
Saffa is " زنها - zanha " means "women".
Marva is " مردها - mardha " means "men".
Baqarah is " اثر و قباله - ghabaleh " means "traces and property deed", Kaaba and Al-Aqsa were they were keeping the property deeds and were witnessing and registering the marriages as well which led them to become woman/sex trafficking for women and slavery for men.
Quran is " کارگران - karegaran " means workers [mainly well diggers and construction workers] and the Turban was the first Safety Helmet to protect them from falling dirt and rocks as well as keeping their head and hair clean and cover their mouth and nose for dust. Turban became the symbol of a man who has a skill, job and income.
Can you compare Islam with communism and nazism?
They’re all authoritarian and totalitarian.
A Caliphate requires a Caliph. So requires a dictator.
That has been done many times.
Communism and nazism are zionist so as many muslims.
@inesantunes9594 islam is completely equivalent to fashism.
Fashist Italy was unsuccessful because Europe graduated beyond a Renaissance, an enlightenment era, two industrial revolutions, and modernization.
Otherwise, Italian fashism would've become just like islam.
Europe was too advanced for fashism to take power.
Arabs, on the other hand, are stuck thousands of years in the past.
Arabs haven't even achieved a Magna Carta!
They're culturally stuck- thousands of years behind the rest of the world.
This is why they welcome and LOVE fashism and islam.
Mecca is a Farsi word " محل کاروان - mahale-kaarevan " which means the "Caravan Location".
Kaaba is " جعبه - jabbeh " which means "Qube / Box".
Saffa is " زنها - zanha " means "women".
Marva is " مردها - mardha " means "men".
Baqarah is " اثر و قباله - ghabaleh " means "traces and property deed", Kaaba and Al-Aqsa were they were keeping the property deeds and were witnessing and registering the marriages as well which led them to become woman/sex trafficking for women and slavery for men.
Quran is " کارگران - karegaran " means workers [mainly well diggers and construction workers] and the Turban was the first Safety Helmet to protect them from falling dirt and rocks as well as keeping their head and hair clean and cover their mouth and nose for dust. Turban became the symbol of a man who has a skill, job and income.
Paul, there is absolutely no mention of Jerusalem in the Quran. Or Baytul Muqaddis (Bayt Ha Mikdash in Hebrew). Baytullah (house of Allah) is not Jerusalem.
Jay and Robert - the verse eaten by the goat is not about wife beating or adult suckling. The silly hadith about the goat eating a Quran verse refers to stoning adulterers to death.
All you great scholars MUST provide clear references to the Quran when you speak about the Quran. Otherwise it is hearsay.
There is no muhammad mentioned in the Quran. There are four mentions of muhammadun and muhammadin which are adjectives (praiseworthy). At best it is a simple noun (praiseworthy person). There is no proper noun al-muhammad anywhere in the Quran. The name of Sura 47 was changed from Sura al Qital to Sura al-Muhammad. It was a much later innovation.
Please refer the so called Mecca words in the Quran. For example "bi batni makkata" does not mean "in the middle of Mecca". It means "in the bowels of intrigue". Likewise 'mukaan wa tasdiyyan' means 'intrigue and interference with their hands'. Makata / mukaan refers intrigue. In Sura 3:96 the word Bakka is not Mecca. Period. Bakka means with deep conviction, sorrow, effort, sweat and toil. You find it in the Book of Psalms "the valley of Bacca".
Odon LaFontaine, the Quran is a Nestorian Christian document. The entire Quran is about Christo-tokos versus Theo-tokos.
Archbishop Nestorius was present at the Council of Ephesus in 431AD where he was condemned for his insistence on "Christotokos". It was during the reign of Roman Emperor Theodosius II.
Ephesus is also home to the story of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus who were discovered during the time of same Theodosius II. Archbishop Nestorius was also present.
In Sura 18, the Quran mentions the sleepers of the cave. These were the same Sleepers of Ephesus. Refer Sura 18:22 - the "muhammad character" was present at the time they discovered the sleepers inside the cave.
Sura 18:22 " Some would say, "They were three; their dog being the fourth," while others would say, "Five; the sixth being their dog," as they guessed. Others said, "Seven," and the eighth was their dog. Say, "My Lord is the best knower of their number." Only a few knew the correct number. THEREFORE DO NOT ARGUE WITH THEM, JUST GO ALONG WITH THEM. You need not consult anyone about this."
Do not argue with who? Who is them? Them refers to the people who were arguing about how many boys there were inside the cave. This does not refer to 7th century Mecca. (It did not exist anyway. There was also no Muhammad). This refers to the people in Ephesus. They argued about the sleepers in the cave. The "muhammad-character" was present at Ephesus. Archbishop Nestorius was present at Ephesus. Christotokos versus Theotokos.
CAN SOMEONE PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO ODON, PAUL, ROBERT, JAY, MEL etc. Thank you.
'There is absolutely no mention of Jerusalem in the Qur'an...' Not true!
Even on the traditional Islamic interpretation, the Qur'an mentions the Holy Land, Jerusalem and the temple on numerous occasions. The episodes set in the palaces of David and of Solomon must be assumed to have taken place in their Jerusalem palaces (mentioned in the Bible), the annunciation of a son to Zechariah, the upbringing of Mary, the selection of a spouse for Mary, and the breathing of life into her womb are all clearly set in the temple. The masjid of the Banu Israel in 17.7 is generally (correctly) assumed to be the temple, and also their houses in Q 17.5. And the Qur'an's night journey of Q 17.1 is conventionally believed to be a journey to Jerusalem's Temple Mount (incorrectly; it is actually Muhammad's journey *away from* Jerusalem).
These are just the instances that the Islamic tradition recognises. There are many more.
Even your calling Jerusalem the Bayt al-Miqdash, the Holy House, is a sign that proto-Islam recognised the temple as the Sacred/Ancient/House, Allah's House, mentioned in the Qur'an dozens of times. Why else would you call it by that name?
So why do you say that Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Qur'an? Have you even read it?
Mecca is a Farsi word " محل کاروان - mahale-kaarevan " which means the "Caravan Location".
Kaaba is " جعبه - jaabeh " which means "Qube / Box".
@@PaulDdAEllis there is no mention og the name jerusalem > jerusalem is over 3,0000 years old there is no mention of jerusalem by name in the quran > you can lie and desieve people > but islam is a copy paste>
After Muhammad's death, the Meccans changed the name Isaac in Suras 2:125 and 127 for the name Ishmael and invented the story about Abraham taking Ishmael to their black rock in Mecca, so that pilgrims would continue to visit Mecca.
THAT IS THE MAIN REASON
The word Qibla, could be something related with Kopura or Kovil in Indian context meaning the temples or temple towers which normally built by a king. So I am seeing everything political, the Arab fighting against the Romans, Jewish domination and Sasanian kings, dominated them and wrote a book for them to further their expansions.
If you are a beginner of history and would like to get started, are there any good books you’d recommend? Please not to heavy reading to keep the interest up. Thank you!
I wish we had the full names of the tangents. We are not all conversant with the panelists..
I've updated them now.
I heard ZamZam is not a well but a rain watercollector for about 50 people. The water now is artificcial. They digged deep water structures. And: Abraham has 2 fathers : Azar and Tera.
The meaning of 'The Believers' Movement' from before there was a Quran is that Arabs were called to replace the Romans and Persians and rule the world. The motive for doing so is that the Romans and Persians were 'unclean' ... religiously 'polluted'. The method to wrest overlordship from the Roman and Persian empires was JIHAD ... the 'STRUGGLE' to impose the eternal Laws of Allah. The Quran was written by Abd al Malik to justify his dynasty and his Umayyad Empire. These three (meaning, motive and method) are the essential elements of Islam as an imperial system of governance (Arabic: 'DEEN').
It's great that you pointed it out, deen doesn't actually mean religion in Arabic, it means system of governance.
@@Corn-c1c And 'me-DEEN-a' means 'the place of the government'.
@@mr.angelosonassis3069 Thx
Gangster Rappers from the 7th century
@OrwellsHousecat Caravan Raider "gangstas" who were too illiterate for rap.
Too illiterate for 3rd grade poetry too
Heraclius along with Salman Farsi played a major role which is mentioned in Islamic sources but largely ignored in western scholarships. You have to take into account the power ballance between The Sassanid Persian Empire and Byzantine Roman Empire. Then you have to see the cause of success of an empire. For the Assyrian empire it was divide and conquer, for the Roman empire it was create a banana state with a puppet dictator, for the Persian empire, it was the pony Express. Heraclius was able to tip the balance of power the Roman way. Now you know the rest of the history.
i'm guessing jeddah came about to control east/west trade that went via egypt and sudan through the red sea to the indian ocean, taking over from venetians that used this route
Lots of Mutah helped reduce total inbreeding though sibling marriage is still very prevalent
I said the same 40y ago to a moroccan. He answered: 1 out of 7 children is from the neighbour. 😊😊 Women get smarter the more they get imprisoned.
Islam began with Ishmael a witness to the voice of the Trinity
Great discussion! Thanks to all
Clearly with all these great minds all together in one place it would be so easy for them to produce a chapter like one of the Quran’s chapter and shut Muslims up once and for all
As The Christian Prince has said, this challenge was overcome by satan because according to Muhammed it was Satan that told him the Satanic verses!
Does the star and moon belong to byzantine empire flag?
When does this appear in a book.
Who is Robert?
Bob
@@ebog4841 not Bert?
@@IosifStalin2 Bobbert
Robert Kerr from Inarah school, Germany.
Robert Spencer?
Giod duscussion
was mohammeds mentor called Al-Farsi. that might be a clue
Mecca is a Farsi word " محل کاروان - mahale-kaarevan " which means the "Caravan Location".
Kaaba is " جعبه - jabbeh " which means "Qube / Box".
Saffa is " زنها - zanha " means "women".
Marva is " مردها - mardha " means "men".
Baqarah is " اثر و قباله - ghabaleh " means "traces and property deed", Kaaba and Al-Aqsa were they were keeping the property deeds and were witnessing and registering the marriages as well which led them to become woman/sex trafficking for women and slavery for men.
Quran is " کارگران - karegaran " means workers [mainly well diggers and construction workers] and the Turban was the first Safety Helmet to protect them from falling dirt and rocks as well as keeping their head and hair clean and cover their mouth and nose for dust. Turban became the symbol of a man who has a skill, job and income.
Actually Abraham ,ishmael ,hagar never ever been to the place call mecca and the place hagar got water was not zam-zam well is created ..by human
Mohammed is not a person as the pre old Torah which had the word mohad Mohamed and other spellings were old Coptic Aramaic for saying saviour massaiya so Mohamed is arabic word from old languages for the coming of mohad mohmet mem-ha-med-da the name saying to he coming of the saviour masaiya who is jesus
As arrogant as European am in Africa in a town so ancient yet no map has ever recorded it bit the proof of our being here for years is the language we constructed with time its distnct and diff from everywhereelse on the planet the arabs speak arabic in arabia let them tell there story
People kill in the name of this story. All the most active terrorist organisations in the world are Islamic. It’s a political ideology that indoctrinates children. A system of social conditioning that mandates supremacy over all mankind.
The Muslim Arabs LIE about their story. That is the problem.
Which part of Africa are you from?
Mecca is a Farsi word " محل کاروان - mahale-kaarevan " which means the "Caravan Location".
Kaaba is " جعبه - jabbeh " which means "Qube / Box".
Saffa is " زنها - zanha " means "women".
Marva is " مردها - mardha " means "men".
Baqarah is " اثر و قباله - ghabaleh " means "traces and property deed", Kaaba and Al-Aqsa were they were keeping the property deeds and were witnessing and registering the marriages as well which led them to become woman/sex trafficking for women and slavery for men.
Quran is " کارگران - karegaran " means workers [mainly well diggers and construction workers] and the Turban was the first Safety Helmet to protect them from falling dirt and rocks as well as keeping their head and hair clean and cover their mouth and nose for dust. Turban became the symbol of a man who has a skill, job and income.
mecca didnt exist during mohamed times > if there was trade then it shoud be on a map > but it doesnt exist becouse it was all lies
A people who look like you came to Africa with the same argument and to the natives and aboriginals that they discovered Africa and all its rivers and mountains naming tham after their kings
Completely off-topic. What is your point?
@@mysotiras21Whataboutism essentially
First , explain clearly talking donkeys, boats carrying loads of animals and pregnant virgins.........up to................undead people walking the streets of Jerusalem.
None of that changes the fact that the Qur'an and early 'Islam' are derived from earlier Judaic and Christian scriptures and practises.
@gavinjames1145 then why so different and successful
OFF-TOPIC. We are discussing the origins of Islam here, NOT Biblical narratives. Stop doing the Muslim shuffle.
@@mysotiras21 Muslims would rather ignore reality than live well and grow to become good people.
Mecca is a Farsi word " محل کاروان - mahale-kaarevan " which means the "Caravan Location".
Kaaba is " جعبه - jabbeh " which means "Qube / Box".
Saffa is " زنها - zanha " means "women".
Marva is " مردها - mardha " means "men".
Baqarah is " اثر و قباله - ghabaleh " means "traces and property deed", Kaaba and Al-Aqsa were they were keeping the property deeds and were witnessing and registering the marriages as well which led them to become woman/sex trafficking for women and slavery for men.
Quran is " کارگران - karegaran " means workers [mainly well diggers and construction workers] and the Turban was the first Safety Helmet to protect them from falling dirt and rocks as well as keeping their head and hair clean and cover their mouth and nose for dust. Turban became the symbol of a man who has a skill, job and income.
Hhhhhhh!
Do they even know the Quran?
It looks like they are trying to fool the audience.
Why you didn't invite Mohamed Almasiah to this discussion. He is well knowledgeable in this area. Almasiah worked with Gerd Puin on the San'a manuscripts. He also wrote a book called, "The Early History of Islam." He busted the myth and he has some solid evidence to back his claims, such as who Muhammad really was and where he truly came from.
Divinity does not exist. Magical thinking damages the world.
Does eternity exist? Give me an explanation without any magical thinking. 😁
@@IslamicOrigins The explaining is for those that are trying to prove divinity. Does eternity exist? I don't know, we can only assume. Prove it.
😂😂😂... this is as informative as getting 7 of your worst enemies to gossip about your origins!
_peace_
Not enemies. The truth is not your enemy.
@IslamicOrigins Of course the truth is not an enemy to any sane secular human being!
The truth is only an enemy to the Christians, Jews, Sunnis, Shiite & Sectarians and all man-made religions!
_oeace_
@@IslamicOriginsmaybe if you started telling the truth
@@Hadeed20 Maybe you have a different opinion but I'm being perfectly honest. The "lying" culture that exists in Islam is not what we are about. We are motivated by getting at the truth. The truth is what we seek.
@ your motivated to destroy Islam and promote Christianity. Very clear from how you approach this conversion. Your reference Christian sources with sanctity and disregard all Islamic sources. The floor was filled with people from former colonial countries who already tried this technique before. Ask the French guy how it worked in Algeria or the Brit how it worked in India and Nigeria
What did Paul say in Philipians “Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in that I rejoice.” If you can lie to propagate Christianity you wouldn’t mind. But Islam presents a throne in the Christian psyche
I remember that one guy claiming Muhammad never existed. We’ll keep guys name alive and you will see many Muhammad in your life. Lie all you want Islam will be here until the end of days. May god guide those who seek his guidance
I would guess this would be a joke if I didnt watch more....
1. For christians in the panel, trying these spins, all these kinds of theories are already thrown on the bible, so the incostistensy is ridiculous
2. Dan Browns Meca theory is debunked and not accepted by western historians
3. Zem zem well is not the only well in Meca, hehehe
4. If a well is a potential cure for ilness, it doesnt mean its free of sand particles in it, just like any other water, therefore filtering, .... duuuh
5. Saying Meca didnt exist until 750 with the abasids is nuts,
all sources that we have mention Meca and all that comes with it prior to 750
Ex. Muwetta of Enes ibn Malik
This is like a big conspiracy stuff out of a movie
Not much evidence offered. Show me manuscripts verifiably dated to before 750 and I will believe you, if they existed, we'd know about it. But dawahists are silent about them. Says it all.
@@IslamicOrigins He gave the Muwatta as an example of historical sources which talk about Mecca, but it's a hadith collection and not even written before 750 AD! This is pure confirmation bias!