Christine Hayes Lecture at CNS: "The 'Truth' About Torah"
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Profession Christine Hayes came to Congregation Neveh Shalom to give two lectures as part of Rabbi Joshua Stampfer's Bible class.
In this lecture - The 'Truth" About Torah - Professor Hayes asks, When and why did some ancient Jews begin to think of the Torah as conveying a single unchanging divine “truth” and when and why did other ancient Jews resist this new way of thinking? What was at stake in the truth wars of early Judaism and what lessons can be drawn for our own time?
Professor Christine Hayes of Yale University is the leading biblical scholar of our time. Her most recent book, "What’s Divine about Divine Law?", received the 2015 National Jewish book Award and the 2016 Jordan Schnitzer Award from the Association of Judaic Studies.
I came here from this lady's Introduction to the Old Testament and I am totally blown away. Having been educated as a traditional Christian, I'm blown by her understanding and interpretation of the Bible. She contextualizes the OT in its historical and cultural setting and in the process demithologizes it, thus bringing out the reality and true beauty of it. I'm astounded by how much Christianity has distorted the true history and meaning of the Bible. She is also a superb speaker, clear and concise. I'm glad I found her work.
I watched those on Yale Courses and have a similar experience with Christianity. It feels really dishonest that her work is not more widely shared. But that’s the essence of faith in religion, to believe. She offers info that allows people to know the history and context.
I recommend her Introduction To The Old Testament lectures, on the YaleCourses youtube channel. Really good.
PollisDrake Just finished hearing them and came here. I never wanted the lectures to end! I really want another series on the post-exile, Hellenistic, and apocryphal writings!
Yes, I HIGHLY recommend those! I've listened to them several times. I'm not exaggerating when I say that I've listened to lectures 4-8 at least a dozen times. The stories of the patriarchs, the exodus and their near middle eastern context is fascinating.
@@nonprogrediestregredi1711 I'm rewatching them now!
I enjoyed those tremendously!
i watched it in previous week. what an introduction! unbelievable.
This lady is an outstanding scholar. A completely learned woman in all respects. On top of that, a wonderful lecturer, clear and concise in every respect.
Nobody is perfect
@@nehe332 Especially you...ha ha...razzing you.
She is very well-read, I followed her 24 lectures of Introduction to the OT, my understanding grew rapidly
Christine is one of the best Biblical Scholars in the world if not the best
I started studing the old testament to understand christianity better and ended up learning a whole lot more about how jews view the world and the Torah. I learned a lot from the professor.
Her RUclips series is worth a second run, and even more. Praying often!!!
How you praying often after knowing the “God” in OT only a definition by some tribe in mesopotamia time historic?
I have been watching her Yale lectures. They are so interesting. She's is absolutely brilliant.
I always thought the Hebrew Bible was under appreciated in the dominant Christian culture, but Dr Hayes has really helped clarify a lot of points that strengthen my conviction that it is at least as important and valuable to Christians as the New Testament. Thanks for sharing!
Without Judaism, there can be no Christianity
Without knowledge of the Covenant - the Torah - you cannot be a part of the Renewed Covanant.
The Law/Torah leads us to Yahshua!
Christians are disciples of Paul the Pharisee, they are not disciples of the prophet Yeshua.
Matthew 5:17-20
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
@@larocdokarnap3227 Let's NOT open this interfaith dialogue by being senselessly disrespectful to the Pharisees. Jesus may have spoken harshly to them but we who follow him have certain beliefs about why that's ok for Jesus. He always told the people to respect the Pharisees, their learning, and their teachings. Christians should be very cautious criticizing the historical Pharisees and doubly cautious dismissing their whole school of interpretation and pious reflection on the Law and Prophets.
@@larocdokarnap3227 Paul did not abolish the law. He was an Israelite, unlike most of the Pharisees who were Edomites! After his death, his teachings wrere altered to lead the Christians astray!
I love professor Hayes!!!!!
Awesome lecture, it's rare to see someone so thoroughly capture both the academic and narrative voice of a topic
Always enjoy Dr. Hayes' lectures. Thought-provoking and life-giving.
Christine Hayes has really changed the way I view and understand religion, Judaism and especially my Christian faith.
I feel I don't have to read the Bible anymore as this collection of saints writings. I sort of was on this track of rejecting fundamentalism before, because I knew something about Higher Criticism from my Protestant background. Even known it was highly persecuted from the Christian Eastern-Orthodox part of my heritage.
Thank you, Christine Hayes!
How do you now approach Christianity, once you let go of the fundamentalism? In fact, how do you now view God, scripture and religions? Genuinely asking
@@karendonoghue5105 I find there are so many lovely people that are neither fundamentalist nor on the opposite side.
Where I find myself.
The fact that historically, people like St. Augustine or Origen, also had an allegorical interpretation of Genesis and maybe of the Old Testament, generally speaking, helped me a lot.
It provided reasons to think that faith is not just "backing down" or scientific discovery, "adapting", but that rather, we went wrong with fundamentalism in the first place.
I do have a conviction to believe in the NT Gospels, including the virgin birth and the resurrection, where I take that "leap of faith", as Kierkegaard put it.
But I realised the book's genre matter!
Is Genesis meant to be read literally? Maybe not! And maybe Augustine and Origen saw that, in the first centuries of Christianity.
@@karendonoghue5105 I'd love to talk about whatever specific subject you want.
What I really wanted was to hear her story on how she found the tree of life and managed to pass through those cherubims. She looks at least 15 years younger than what she really is.
My guess is through studying the Zohar
The best and most knowledgeable old testament scholar ever
I'm glad in this version of this lecture she mentions Paul in connection to this idea
She is wonderful and so knowledgeable. What a delight it is to listen and learn from her.
Once again Brilliant a woman's touch, such intelligence matched by the beauty of thought, they have the gift of bringing a real understanding to the bias of male religious intercourse. "In context all religion is a relationship with a Deity from a community of Men", when a woman asserts the intellectual freedom to describe anything Divine, it is wonderful, enlightenment.
Absolutely brilliant.
I have never seen someone who is better at clearly explaining the development of Israelite (and later Jewish and Christian) faith, as well as the process of how the books of the Old testament were written, compiled, edited, and canonized, all the while doing it in a manner which avoids patronizing or denigrating the faiths built upon them.
Including Islam
@@Sky-hz1cc Islam and Mormonism are like late out-branches of Christianity.
What an excellent lecture!
The truth is that justice should be tempered with mercy.
You mean justice is implemented appropriately when balanced between severity and mercy. Revisit minute 29:09.
A fantastic lecture and worth it for the very final (and most profound/interesting) point made alone.
I remember Rabbi Stampfer from avery long time ago and I think he also came to Jerusalem and I also had a chance to see him here. Portland is my home town and I am so happy to find a youtube video showing an event in Beaverton.
This is a great lecture. Listen to it carefully. It can teach you a lot.
Thank you for sharing it.
Absolutely wonderful!
Awesome!
A jewel. Great find.
When you listen to her you realize how much you don’t know.
Great lecture. I’m curious as to how some would feel about the idea that “god’s” word was so easily amended over time.
there are no gods hence no word. if I was a believer I would be overwhelmed
I think it's important to start reading again. The most powerful understanding and explanation of why we believe what we believe. Many truths revealed in the book The Land of Meat and Honey by Dr. Shmuel Asher. Many of his books are found on Amazon. Soul Revolution, The Greater Exodus, The Asher Codex. Recently published The Essene Law with translation and commentaries. Must reads!!
Oddly enough, the rabbi's conception of divine law is closer to actual nature: change, variability, adaptation, and collaboration.
You’ve just described evolution 😉
@@diedonner299 they've also just described what it's like to follow God😉
@Demetrius Middleton I follow God, and I agree with you. 😉
Righteousness is a divine quality, the law is mundane and subordinate to the divinity of righteousness.
Righteousness without the law is still righteousness, but the law without righteousness is murder of the soul.
The law was not made for the righteous but for the wicked, not made for the faithful of the Lord but for the sake of the unruly.
The Law is righteousness. How can one know what is righteousness without the law? Laws exist in all aspects of life. They are the foundation.
What would be an example of a positive human law derived from the Greek understanding presented here ?
They did not have to consider the broader consequences of the Torah rulings because they were temporally and only for an specific community. they did not care if that writings were to ended up in the "wrong hands",. As long as they obtained that territory.
When Philo claims that the Torah wasn’t written, he may have been referring the the Orel Law. The Orel Law explains the details of the Written Law, without it we wouldn’t know what Shotnes is. Indeed much of the Torah wouldn’t be understandable without the Orel Laws.
This is precisely the case. He was not trying to conform the nature of the Mosaic Law to a Hellenism-approved conceptual framework (although he kind of was doing this as well); Philo was a deeply Hellenized Jew pointing out that the Jews since the time of Moses had always understood that the Law was not a written law essentially...but was revelation, of which parts could be written and others could only be shown. Philo was in no manner learning for the first time that this Hellenistic concept of natural law was something he should incorporate into Judaism, just like that. Philo is a rather late (correction: very late) source to consult as regards ancient Israelite understanding of the eternality of Hashem's Law, and the fact it is 'written on our hearts' (this is effectively a statement of its universality in nature written long before Philo's time).
Does anyone have a copy of the charts she refers to in the lecture? Would like a copy of them.
how can you still believe after hearing her
Still believe what?
@@keithcollard3933 the bullshit
The inspiration for the Bible was not an event, but a process, The Holy Spirit was involved at all points. Working through the original stories, along with those who collected and edited them. And not only in the Israelite community but in all human communities preparing them for His ultimate revelation of Himself in the person of Jesus.
@@curtpowell3795 there was no inspiration, it was a small group book, their tales, their stories. Well they copied all their stories and worshipped everyone deities, everything in that book existed before that book. Was the holy spirit involved in the errors, false prophecies, made up history, copied history and stories, did the holy spirit guide those who forged, removed and added books and verses? What the holy.. Did the holy spirit guide the writers to write two creation stories, to have one gospel writer copy 50 to 70 percent from the others, did the holy spirit guide two different writers to write the exact same verse. Was the holy spirit leading them to write woman in a docile property, guide them passages on rape and slavery.. Nobody needs that book to be moral or gain any wisdom from it.. That wisdom exist in other books thousands of years older
@@curtpowell3795 according to Mathew 24 he's already revealed himself.. So what does the holy spirit say about that.
vedanta is the sanata dharma, the eternal law. then, there’s everything they say…
love,
david
✨
👑
If only all religions were so flexible.
I love the way she teaches and listening to her I am learning so much. I wanted to point out that the biblical writers did not consider God "a" deity but rather The Deity or The Most High God, The Only God. That is made clear in the law of Moses. Although from our perspective on near eastern motifs and based on our knowledge of Mesopotamian cultures we can say there were many gods in those days, but the writers of Torah were different in that at the very least they had a monolatristic perspective that they adhered to or even a monotheistic view, although that view was developed over time. She knows this, but I just noticed she used the phrase "given by a deity" to indicate the divinity of Jewish Law. Nevertheless, she is an outstanding scholar and I will just shut up and listen now. LOL!
At 60:00 now you know why she is the "ant's pants." Absolutely brilliant!
In all her lectures, Christine Hayes talk about The Canaanites and the Phoenicians as if there are too different nations.
But every respectable historien (and anyone who knows how to google) knows that Phoenician is the Greek name for the Canaanites
4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering. Genesis
4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. Genesis
was written so you can try to get others to believe
I post a question not out of disrespect, I'm still learning so be patient with me please.
I thought that the laws or instructions told by Hammurabi was about close to the same however those are earlier Closer to the time of Abraham also didn't Abraham live close to Sumer or in Sumer so that means that Hammurabi laws were given to Abraham.
We live in an EQUILIBRIUM where all living things seamlessly form the whole. For example; if we kill out, to extinction, one living organism, the equilibrium, the whole, will automatically adjust and ‘fill’ that ‘gap’ with some other organism. The more this, the less that, and so forth.
All living things are made of matter (particle) that are ‘built’ from a non-material ’layer’ (wave). This non-material layer where everything arises from is non-computable (Shrödinger); it can’t be put to a formula. How can we then state that the objective TRUTH (and the laws) can be somehow, completely be defined by the material nature? This simply is not possible and thus what seems to be rational can’t always be the absolute truth. Only God knows the absolute truth.
The instructions of the Torah that seem not rational are things that play on that very level that is unseen and non-measurable. Only God has access to this ‘source code’ of reality and has given us detailed instructions how to keep things in harmony - how human beings are to live. We have absolutely no way of telling or calculating how, for example, eating certain things will affect the incredible complexity of a human body - or the entire biosphere. We can observe from the activity of other living things, that they DO have their very specific diets, if, they are living in their, undisturbed, natural habitat. Why wouldn’t humans have this too? The PERFECT diet that ensures no problems. Swallowing pebbles (or whatever fits in) is possible if we decide to because we CAN - but should we?
A human being, created in the image of God, has a great RESPONSIBILITY to control his/her actions. No one else moves your hand or your lips except you. The law IS THE LAW; never meant to be changed or interpreted, but simply obeyed and enforced by EVERYONE; Israelites as the nation showing example to others. This is exactly what they have been to the entire humankind; in the examples of Torah all the way to these days; what to do and what not to do. It does not matter what a rabbi says - if he, or anyone else, attempts to change the instructions given, he is in an open rebellion against God. Take a good look around you. Where has all these ‘flexible’ man-made laws brought us?
Shalom.
There is one devine law and it is written into the Thora. But do understand that you need a personal relationship to the writer of the text, YHWH-God. Miss Hayses seems to be happy when the divine is taken out of the Bible
Doesn't the evolution of "Divine" law show that "devine" law(as well as the Devine) are man-made?
Could we also say the same about the manner in which the quantum description of physics replaces the classical model--and argue that science is just a human creation? Or might we say that as human knowledge advances, we can see another layer of understanding about the universe that was always there, but previously unavailable to us.
@@nevehshalom I find it concerning that the idea of Divine law can change as if we knew what was better and God didn't. Plus how could we possibly make amends to the law or add to it seeing that man is wicked. Jeremiah 17:9, Psalm 51:5, Isaiah 64: 6, Isaiah 53:6, just to name a few. If Divine law was to evolve than we would be the ones giving God advice. God knows how to govern and any addition to the law is sin
Deuteronomy 4:2.
Also, Professor Hayes suggests that God changed his law from punishing children for the sin of their parents to only punishing individual sin. She cites the passage in ezekiel to show it somehow took God generations to enact it. Yet, the Torah clearly shows in Deuternomy 24: 16, “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.
@@nevehshalom science is descriptive, in that it describes the natural world as we find it. Whereas the Word of God should be prescriptive, in that it tell how it is and shouldn't change with time or better human understanding.
@@hunterklise9337 divine law changing does not mean that the essence of God changes - and i think the latter is FAR more important, and far more emphasized throughout scripture.
1:02:50 if it burns, it’s pure.
Yeshua fulfilled the law. The law was given to the Israelites after coming out of Egypt to separate them from the world, because they were Yah’s chosen people. Now all who are in Christ are under the law of the Spirit. We are the one new man & His Ruach leads & guides us. The “law” is written on our hearts.
If I hear Jesus fulfilled the law I'll scream. "Not one jot or tittle will disappear from the law."
After this lecture it’s possible to see how the rabbis might dispense with all the jots and tittles, if they so choose.
@@diedonner299 That's an interesting comment. My understanding is that the jots and tittles, and all the particular features of the texts remain unchanged, they never disappear from the law (even when the law is ammended by the Heavenly One as Professor Hayes described we can still see the ammendements. But the interpretation and application (or non-application) of the text of the law varies widely with very different practical outcomes. And this is a mattter of historical record not only within Judaism, but also within Christianity and Islam.
@@sanmcnellis94 yes after the LAW IS FUFILLED
@L M woww lol
Can any explain to me what she's trying to prove exactly ?
She presents Hebrew culture in conjunction with the Torah, she’s not trying to prove anything.
At about 26:00 I take issue (and I am an ardent follower of Christine and think she is the ant's pants) with Christine's description of Paul as a "Pharisaic Jew." There's no evidence that he was - in fact the opposite. (You can't take his (avowed) words in his letter to the Galatians that he was...) I hope that Christine doesn't use his "self identity" to prove any other point than it is his conception of Divine law that is the issue for this lecture. I shall now unpause and continue..!!
@Steve Mendelle I had the same thought when she got to Paul. He seems to fit better among the Sadducees.
I think this lecture itself already makes it clear that Paul is just like Philo (a Hellenized Jew) who happened to hold the exact opposite view. Philo was trying to "save" the Torah by shoehorning it into Greek philosophical understanding, Paul just gave up. Also, Pharisaic Jews came in all sorts of form in the 1st century and most of the Hellenized Jews would have been recognized as Pharisaic by their contemporaries simply because they too were vehemently opposed to the temple Judaism of the Sadducees and shared the middle-of-the-road political view of the Pharisaic school. The "Pharisaic ideology" we think of today only came about centuries later during the formation of the Talmud. In the 1st century, all sorts of Pharisees were espousing all sorts of ideologies. You know, like that Jesus guy.
The Pharisees were a corrupt seed! They contaminated GOD'S laws! Paul was at least an Israelite who tried to preserve what he couod in the Roman world.
Oh you mean Philippines 3:5-6, “circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the churches; as to righteousness under the law, blameless” (Phil. 3:5-6). Seems like this Paul claimed to be a pharisee many times.
Why 12?
our Local-Rabbi says they is Childs-Stories ...
he she pointed to itself when it said be king of Israel
Or . . . who says the Torah, or anything else, is divine?
See how simple and straightforward _and logical_ that immediately makes a whole bunch of stuff?
Don't you think, there is a reason God allowed the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple including the Ark of the Covenant and the Law of Moses is clear that Jews must sacrifice animals in order to please God. Otherwise you have to accept Jesus Christ in order to be salve. You either fulfill all the Law of Moses (without breaking a single point) this is the old covenant( if you break a point you have to sacrifice animal and repent) or accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and not sacrifice animals. In modern times I only see animal sacrifices in some parts of Samaria, so, I don't see how a person been Jew or not can be salve and forgiven if not by the blood of Jesus Christ.
BeAutiful!
who is helen .... helen kellers mother?
Helenism was a Greek ideology!
Conservative Judaism
el peligro de la visión de los Rabinos del Talmud, es que en los hechos terminan diciendo, haz como yo , tu rabino te digo, y no como Dios Dice" . Bien harian los judios leer y estudiar con atención el libro del eclesiastico, Ben Sirá.
16:17 very sharp, very funny
She doesn't sound convinced of the Jewish Faith.
She’s so smart I’m attracted to her 🥰🥰
40:00
So is this what Jesus meant when he told the Pharisees and Scribes that their father was Satan....the Father of lies....the same father or source behind the serpent who told Adam and Eve that they really didn't have to do what God said because eating the fruit would be for their greater good? Could it also be that outside the 10 commandments, alllllll the other laws were really made up along the way by man, not God, and this is also what caused the rabbis to double back on the laws they are written? If there is no absolute truth, then what is there? Is God really corrected by humans?
book of acts
epistle of Barnabas
G-d or Devine law is only mutable in the way that we can add restrictions to the base law. One cannot be more lenient than the original biblical law. This professor has educated herself well though is missing a few basic principles which cause some of her conclusions to be incorrect.
God didn't write any of those laws.
Or, maybe you are the one missing a few basic principles that you skipped on truly understanding the Hebrew Bible.
People will do anything to earn money
But there aren't 10 commandments - there are 2 sets of 10, some overlap, so really there are 17. 17 isn't as catchy as 10. Some are about property - women are property in the Bible. Murder is arbitrary - God says don't do it, but God does it lots of times in the Old Testament.
i just looked at the first set of 10 and there are actually 12 imperatives in there. at least in an english translation.
the first to speak was a woman not a man, deciet a woman acting as a man disobeying the laws to teach lies
This is not the "truth" about Torah. Yah does not learn from Moses. Yah does not make mistakes. Yah is perfect. The rabbis and ancient philosophers are wrong. It is ridiculous to think that humans can change Yah's law that is already perfect to make it better.
She presents biblical examples direct from the book to support her points… you’ve learnt wrong, or too proud in your presup position to accept the actual examples.
It's even more ridiculous that people actually think some dudes back in the day wrote what "God" said. Give me a break. Just a bunch of men writing male fiction.
Rightly said that Yehweh is with out error. As He says in Isaiah 40, 'who is my counselor?' God learns nothing from men. His knowledge is infinite, complete and not lacking in anyway.
She's no Kosher
All of the examples of truth she gave are examples of truth that result from something. I perceive that Torah teaches that God is truth, therefore all that God declares is from truth and therefore makes it truth. Truth in that sense doesn't have to be logical, judicial or empirically observable. Torah may deviate from all of these KINDS of truth, but since it is the word of the truth, who is God, it is the truth. LOL!! Am I even making sense? LOL!
300 years before zero? How about 300 years before Christ.
You're obviously not Hindu.
Sure. Everyone interprets the Torah as a way to question and spar with God. Like totally.
All religions are man made and it shows
How? Is it wrong for God to give a law that isnt universal or for all time?
@@jonaha502 Men wrote every so called religious text in this world. It's funny how it's always men writing about male deities, male prophets, male characters and only write what benefits them.
@@ninam.6781 there are literally goddesses and female prophets but ok
She's so hot
even when she's in the old lady hairstyles, dresses and glasses there's something sexy about her. wonder if she's married
@@PlaAwa Yes and also has two children.
@@michaellangan4450 Thanks! I will admire from a distance!
Her metamorphosis from the church lady look of ten years ago to the current style is truly remarkable!
Not exactly a comment I expected in here but yes, she's highly attractive.
He started off with her "Ecumenism"
Jesus the Christ and the Messiah, said " none may enter unto the Father, but through me."
Judaism Islam Buddhism Hinduism ALL rejects Jesus as the only way to enter God's Kingdom.......
These are the modern antichrist, see 2 John warning
Christians to be careful not to lose their salvation.......
That antichrist in the world, and anyone who rejects the gospel of Jesus is an antichrist.....
Not to invite an antichrist into their homes NOR EVEN wish an antichrist blessings or such CHRISTIANS becomes guilty of the evil deeds of the antichrist......
Now, ecumenism is s a joining of all religions, claiming ALL of them may enter God's Kingdom, even without Jesus as their lord and savior...
Since, Jesus himself said that he is the only way to enter God's Kingdom, I personally choose Not some fake man-made religion.....
how do you know
I think Judaism today is like Christianity, no Jerusalem Temple, no Ark of the Pact, no animal sacrifices, so, in these aspects, the Law of Moses is impossible to fulfill now, so, except circuncition, keeping the feasts and not eating pork and lobsters I do not see any difference between Judaism and Christianity.
they switched places the older woman became men and their boys girls
She is Cherry picking and not reading the scriptures in context. If in a debate with a trained apologist she would be picked apart.
Naldo not really because she is reading it as a scholar. Don’t be naive, she knows far more than you think.
@@baruchevenezra7279 not a question of intelligence, but of factual information and interpretation. Im not questioning her intellect, but she Is ignorant of the scriptures. There is far more information on the scriptures, and it is widely accessible.
She knows and understands the Hebrew bible better than any apologist you can refer me to.
@@anderskjeldsen6769 Dr.james white reads and teaches biblical Hebrew and Greek.
@@YoxxSHIxx Sure, he knows a lot, but he certainly doesn't understand the any of the bibles.