Toriyama's BIGGEST MISTAKE
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- Опубликовано: 2 мар 2024
- What is Akira Toriyama's BIGGEST MISTAKE with Dragon Ball? @LSMMIKE explains in this #dragonballz #anime and #manga video! #dbz
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Hits different knowing he was dead when this came out
Fr
I was thinking the same thing
When Gohan missed catching the Potara Earring, I immediately knew something was wrong!
Yeah thank God Gohan missed it. He would have known what sex with his mom's like.
In the fight Gohan vs Buu, When Gohan acted the same way as when he fought Cell, learning NOTHING from previous experiences , that's the realization that something went wrong
Can catch bullets, but can't catch a set of earrings...💀💀💀
Seriously, all Toriyama had to do to make his asspull idea work was to have Buu slap that shit away.
Nah that’s when something was right, we got vegito
@gerardoa9179 no it was completely different. In the cell fight Gohan wanted nothing to do with it after his dad gave up. He got used by goku for something he could not control. This is where we meet what I now call false beast Gohan ss2 version. Gohan notably trys to kill all of his opponents this is the first time he played with them.
Buu saga Gohan wanted nothing more then revenge. Gohan was in complete control of himself. Gohan does go for kill shots but the problem is Gohan doesn't know anything that can end the fight. So he op's to beat buu down until he can win. Because Gohan has already seen super Kamehameha, it wouldn't work. He is in ultimate Gohan form, which seems to b the base form for beast. It unfortunately seems to lack power but is equal or past ss3.
Its wild that Toriyama had already passed away when this was posted and none of us knew
😥😥😥😥
R.I.P Akira legend will live on
sometimes I wonder if people who say gohan being the strongest in the cell saga is an "asspull" "comes out of nowhere" "is unearned" ever watched the show or read the manga. It was foreshadowed FROM THE VERY BEGINNING that he would surpass goku.
Facts like that moment was deserved there. The only asspull he got is beast
I never found anyone who thought cell saga gohan was an asspull. Only beast gohan feels like an asspull
Ppl just want him to be his gt or green tracksuit counterpart or else they bitching. Fuxk those db fans bruh
He surpassed Goku in the fight against raditz
GREAT 👌 LAUGHINGSTOCK MEDIA DRAGON BALL Z SHOULD HAVE END WITH CELL
The Buu arc was a huge mess.
sure was
That shit was garbage 🗑️
Disagree
That shit is garbage
Buu arc should have never happened if it weren't for vegeta, buu didn't even hatch in future trunks timeline.
I love future Gohans gi because it's Goku's gi with the kanji Demon because piccolo was his master
Nah dude, you're thinking of Kid Gohan training with Piccolo during the Saiyan arc. He's got the Demon kanji there. Future Gohan has his own kanji, 'Han'. Supposed to mimic Goku's kanji during the Frieza fight which is 'Go'
@@michaelmcmaster6810 No I was thinking of future Gohan's go because I remember hearing or reading saying it was demon on his back
@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD no, future gohan wears a Gi with his own Kanji on his back
In the fight Gohan vs Buu, When Gohan acted the same way as when he fought Cell, learning NOTHING from previous experiences , that's the realization that something went wrong
thats anime filler lol
By that logic neither did Goku too compassionate or Vegeta too arrogant
He’s a normal flawed person. Not everyone just learns from a mistake after making it one time. He was still practically a kid (in high school) that’s normal behavior ngl.
@daydreams-xs3rz age means nothing.. Vegeta was an adult when he intentionally let Cell get his perfect form....its apart of their character. Ultimate Gohan doesn't get a pass he was alot older and experienced enough to know better
@@jasonhearn5818 vegeta is a crazed battle alien that’s part of HIS character. Gohan has a bit of that as well ofc but he wasn’t much older😂 bro is in high school
Goku is immortal because marketing. He is Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin, etc. He's more like a logo now, more so than a character who gets to progress.
Don't forget Pikachu lol
@@Nyeahvolution316 exactly why Pikachu never evolved
nah it's because he's the perfect protagonist for dragon ball and gohan taking over would destroy the core of the series. if anything planning to make him the new character was the mistake, but it worked out in the end cuz it's pretty realistic for things to not turn out how you wanted & for the next generation to not be what it was cracked up to be.
@@RaymondoPerson wtf dou you mean? Since DBZ start the story turned to Evil guy arrives Goku and friends defeat him, move to the next . Gohan suits it perfectly
no it doesn't, unless you're viewing DB purely on a simple surface level where "plot" is the most important thing. DB is all about this single-minded monkey man's attitude & philosophy clashing with the villains' impure, overomplicated mindsets. it's about a guy fighting not for justice but for fun, driven by his will to constantly push himself & improve, fighting dudes who care too much about things like status, power, dominating the enemy or achieving "perfection". Dragon Ball is peak "smart dumb guy" manga and Gohan is way too dedicated to traditional ideas of morality to be a replacement for the real heart of the series. Goku is pure martial arts ideals embodied, Gohan is just a run of the mill "relatable hero".@@alexzero3736
R.I.P LEGEND
His biggest mistake was agreeing to interviews.
#lesterwilliamsjr649 Why’s that his biggest mistake??? What happened???
@@ChristianGibbons777 Akira Toriyama is Dead😭😭😭😭😭😭😭.
@@orangeslash1667 Ooooooooh…. Did he suddenly collapsed while on air mid interview??? How’d he die exactly??
@@ChristianGibbons777 Subdural hematoma.
I recently watched everything from the King Piccolo Arc to the Cell Saga in one long DB binge. I originally intended to watch the Buu arc too, but I actually couldn't. The Cell Games was such a perfect ending that it became astronomically clear that watching any further would be spitting on my own time investment and hurting the story that actually made me tear up at the end.
And yes, there's great stuff in the Buu Arc. I like how Mr S becomes a true hero, how only his voice could power the genki dama... it shows that Gohan letting him take credit was for the best, and that anyone can be a hero if they believe they are. But as much as I love Vegitto, and I love Mr S's arc, I think the correct ending to Z would've been:
Gohan shows up to fight Super Buu. No one gets absorbed. He beats the breaks off Buu, and it ends with he, Goten and Trunks finishing Buu, maybe with a flash of Goku and Vegeta behind them as a nod to the Cell Games.
I'd truly prefer Z end with Cell Saga, then Buu Saga be retconned into a sort of bridge Saga that includes Buu, BoG and RoF, that allows DBZ to end with Gohan, but still allows Super (for the ppl who like Super) to happen without undoing so much progress.
I mean, the characters literally forget EVERYTHING they learned in those 7 years. Why would Gohan forget how to control his rage? Bc the plot demands it. Why would Goku decide "screw it, my existence is dangerous, but I wanna fight bad guys!" And if you wanna talk about the Buu Arc itself, why does Vegeta need his "you're the best, Kakarot" moment, when it means nothing compared to the moment he already had vs Fat Buu?
Tl,dr: I agree
And if you did read, THANKS! I will read any replies with the same respect and patience.
@@NoName-cz3wn who says that Gohan forgot? You see his arrival and short fighting against Buu as rage moment? Ahahaha. That wasnt rage , that was self-assurance. Just like when Goku went against Ginyu team.
Man this is harder to watch today.
Is my blood the only one that's running cold right now 😢😢
AND NOW HE CAN NEVER FIX IT D::::;
Yep
he could never fix it in general
Can you not act so bitter. Not now.
He passed the torch down, but i think super already focuses on goku and vegeta so i don't think that can really change
7:05 might be worth mentioning how Goku tries handing off the spirit bomb to Gohan, and though that's interrupted Gohan is the one that bounces it back to hit Vegeta, so there's a kind of "passing of the torch" direct symbolism going on there too
I think that Toriyama’s biggest mistake was not making better use of his side characters the way that Togashi, Oda and Kishimoto did
Tbf both Kishimoto and Oda arent great at utilizing their side characters post timeskip either
@@100navatOda is a lot better than Kishimoto. Because outside the main cast, he is good at showing the development of side characters. Kishimoto is just bad. Like Oda can make good male and female characters. Whereas Kishimoto. Sakura and Hinata have both been reduced to their greatest. Don't get me started on Tenten and Anko.
@@Yunothehero Oda is better then Kishimoto for sure, but he's still not great at developing side characters post timeskip. Chopper, Robin, Brook, Franky especially haven't really done much at all after the timeskip, besides maybe one moment every 400 chapters or so. Oda forgot he gave Usopp haki, he used it once ten years ago and it's literally never brought up again. Sanji hasn't mentioned his dream of finding All Blue a single time posttimeskip, even during Whole Cake. Even Zoro in Wano didn't have much of a character arc beyond wandering aimlessly and it was literally the country of his family origin.
At the point of the story where Buu absorbed Gohan, it should've been Goku. It would have created a interesting dynamic with Gohan going up against his father, brother and friends while also trying to figure out a way to save them. That way Gohan stays the MC and Goku stays in the background while the fight between Buu and Gohan becomes more difficult for him.
Also we would have Gohan and Vegeta chemistry… would have been cool!!
They would have died goku is the only one who cab think under pressure next to piccolo and buu already got him
I recently started re-watching Z and this is evident in the anime as well... I will for ever wonder what could have been.
❤
I agree that from the start you are getting that idea that Gohan is gonna be the hero going forward but my humble opinion I think Namek was when the wheels started to fall off the Gohan train. Because while Gohan is there after Dende's village Gohan takes a pretty big back seat in terms of the story and Vegeta comes to the forefront as he's the one really driving the action while everyone else has to wait for Goku. Androids it's even worse outside of helping Piccolo Gohan seemingly does nothing, until we get to his Super Sayian transformation.
Even GT gave up on Uub for the most part. Ouch! o.o
Give up? They never give him a chance.
"Let's go Buu."
"My name is Uub"
"Buub"
I mean Gohan could've still pursued his dream of being a scholar and still have the role as the MC. The perfect example of him doing that was when he was fighting crime as the Great Saiyaman while still going to school.
Maybe but I think DBZ would have had to have been completely rewritten to get the audience behind Gohan by that point if you weren't a fan of him going Super Sayian 2 then nothing was gonna do it for you.
Imagine if the bojack movie was an arc before the 7 years skip!
It's like the most cannon movie besides wrath of the dragon. But the only thing is that Goku punching Bojack is the only thing that doesn't make sense
Since Super supplants End of Z and GT while stealing ideas from both.... There's no reason they couldn't make a series that filled in the 7 year gap between Cell and Buu sagas. Sure it would supplant Buu, Super, End of Z, and GT. But I'm willing to make that sacrifice.
@@XZAVIER-DAA-GODI believe it is possible to do that thoe it comes in a punishment In the afterlife
@@bryanayalaq9259 yeah but Goku shouldn't Been able to enter the living unless it was his 1 day, like king Kai said you can't do that you're dead lol
@@XZAVIER-DAA-GODoh sure that's already been debunked if you're powerful and of abilities you can get around at dragon Ball heroes proved it when hearts and sell were pulled out of hell did they get a one-day pass know they were afraid to stay there as long as they wanted
The fact that Toriyama was dead when the video was posted, and no one new😢 😢 😢
Toriyama changed the plot because back in the 90’s the Japanese audience did not like the great saiyaman arc and Gohan taking the main role.
The feedbacks were not good and the sellings numbers were also in declined compared to the previous arc so Toriyama gave the audience what they wanted. Goku coming back and many new super saiyans and new ssj forms
When Vegeta talks about ssj bargain sale, its from Toriyama, aimed to his readers.
There were regular polls of readers at the time in the shonen jump and their opinions mattered and often influenced the story of Dragon Ball Z. Like Vegeta, who was originally supposed to die for good on Namek (not Earth)but the readers wanted him to stay in the series so Toriyama decided to keep him.
Akira Toriyama is Dead😭😭😭😭😭😭😭.
i wont believe this stupid theory about Vegeta. Removing Vegeta from the plot basically makes Kururins and Gohans chances to survive on Namek almost zero.
Goku is a character whose motivation never goes away, better fr him to be the main character
That's not a good enough reason though because Toriyama could have given Gohan a motivation like protecting his family or the earth in order for him to be the MC, Now we have Super Goku who a lot of people think is a shell of his former self and Toriyama just doesn't really care as much as he used to.
@@cheeseburgerfreddy6350"Toriyama could have given Gohan a motivation like protecting his family or the earth"
That's literally the motivation that Toriyama gave Gohan to begin with.
And it is FAR more relatable and compelling than "I just wanna fight strong guys hurp-derp" which we got from (the parody of) Goku in Super.
@@EndoScorpion Exactly and he should have stuck with it the story could have been much better than what it's become today. Toriyama had no where to go with Goku's character that's why he pulled out the last card he had and retconned Goku's origin story yet again in the Granolah arc, he made his story even more unoriginal and arguably ruined what made bardock interesting.
Im ok with goku or even vegeta taking the lead if goku is abscent..i just want gohan used more. Fuck that i got a meeting shit its lame cant stand that professor bs lmao piccolo cant either. Future trunks cringed as well barely able to be sensed so soft...So im not wrong. so w that they been doing good. I kinda feel like they timeskipped too much. In my opinion. A young ultimate gohan would have been c.r.a.z.y
Im not even studdin goten or trunks they play too damn much
@@EndoScorpionI understand you point. But in my opinion, goku staying as the MC just makes more sense. He’s just overall more iconic than gohan, and we wouldn’t have gotten to see vegetas character development with his relationship with goku. and even if you were to “sideline” goku, what’s the point of making gohan following goku’s ideals when you can just have goku as the MC?
Yeah it was like Hogan beating Yokozuna at WM 9. Like wtf, Gohan/Bret was the guy and shouldve stayed the guy
Fair what do think if Gohan took over for Goku. Wouldn't mind if he did.
Or The Rock Stealing Cody Rhodes' Spotlight for the Main Event.
@@conradojavier7547 At least Gohan had his moment against Cell, Cody didn't. If anything that's more like when Goku ran in and killed Frieza in ROF instead of Vegeta. BULLS*** #VegetaCrybabies let's get that ending changed.
I was listening to this video yesterday and randomly was thinking wondering how old Toriyama was and what would happen if he passed.
We really don’t know the day nor the hour…..
GT unironically had a better, more fitting series ending than the original manga.
Rest in peace to the man who literally made my childhood. Seeing this right upon catching word of his passing definitely makes me feel something strange. He'd done so without even trying for the most part. The man was a mad genius and one of, if not the greatest mangaka of all time most importantly he will be missed by us all rest in peace Akira toriyama👼
Some people are trying to rewrite history. The idea that it was a good decision because Goku became an icon that everyone knows even decades later while Gohan is not well known worldwide. Uhhhhh, Gohan was the most popular anime/manga character in the world after the Cell saga. This is fact, there were many polls and merchandise sales figures for this time period. Its the fact that Gohan got bitched on in the Buu saga, GT, and the final movies. If Gohan remained a giga chad and was the main character of the Buu saga, the final movies, and GT then he would be just as iconic if not more so than Goku.
False. Gohan was doomed the moment he declared he was a pacifist who didn’t like to fight. In a FIGHTING manga. He got folded by a guy and barely could go super saiyan 2 anymore. He was a shit main character in buu because he reverted back to the namek days of being incompetent.
That doesn't work with Gohan's character. Toriyama realized that Gohan's character just isn't suited to be the protagonist of a series like this.
I think you guys are always so silly with comments like these, pretty sure all heroes are against hurting people, including Goku. DBZ's most epic moments are the parts where the main characters get powerful through emotional triggers of caring for their loved ones, which has always been Gohan's strongest motivator. I firmly believe that's why he was written that way, is that Akira intended for him to overcome his fear of fighting because of the possibility of hurting people, and instead become interested or dedicated to fighting to prevent people from getting hurt. I think this human side is specifically why Gohan was supposed to become the strongest by fighting solely in the resolve to prevent people from getting hurt, taking it much more seriously than other characters who just treat it like a sport. Furthermore, he could've been written to apply his nerdy knowledge and intelligence to fights, along with his motivation to protect his loved ones. There's many brilliant ways I think this could've been done.
I plan to watch this later, thanks for your brilliant content laughingstock
@@theking8347 Agreed
Rest in peace Akira Toriyam you wont be forgotten
I wouldn't mind Gohan being the mian character if his character wasn't constantly changed and flip flopping. But i will always prefer Goku being the main character. But i wouldn't mind Gohan being the main character, And Goku being like a master or mentor to younger characters
I remember Goku always making sure to collect Grandpa's Ball (4 star dragon ball), being such a major thing, even to having it put on kid Gohan's hat. To where it was unimportant until GT brought it back up in the Shadow Dragon Arc.
tbh i cant see gohan as the main protag and thats toriyamas biggest mistake is that hinting that gohan could be it. goku will always be the face of dragon ball a-z just like superman cant be replaced with anyone
Like spider man being the face of marvel, not even miles morales can replace Peter Parker even in his universe
It's Toriyama's fault that he wrote himself into a corner with Gohan's character arc. I always thought the time skip into the Buu saga was poorly handled and was a big mistake, because the time skip was too long and we didn't see Gohan's growth into the studious character that Chi Chi wanted, and he never really got to shine as a main protagonist except at the very end of the Cell Saga. Toriyama didn't have to have him give up fighting to fulfill his calling as an academic either, but that's what we got. The Gohan we saw after the Cell Saga is not the same Gohan that people actually liked. That's why people say that "gohan can't be the main character"--because Toriyama ruined him. That's the point. The recent material in Super Hero is almost a return to form for Gohan, but it's way too little too late.
I think it could have worked if he committed to it, unfortunately he kept Goku as the MC and now we have the DBS Goku who's regressed and relearning things he's already known since the original DB especially the anime version.
Gohan was basically like Goku though. Almost the same character with different hair style. Toriyama could have definitely done it if he wanted to
@@wisdumcube Super Hero is more of a Piccolo story in the movie. I haven't read the manga, so I can't comment if it's any different.
I agree, he clearly was setting up Gohan being the main character and surpassing Goku. It was clear how he ended the Freeza arc and Cell arc (which btw, that antagonist makes no sense if it’s just supposed to be Goku beating him, Cell represents every villain Goku faced and Gohan defeating Cell represents him surpassing his father). I actually liked the teen Gohan arc but yeah, the Bu arc kinda fell apart and is probably my least favorite.
I suspect Goku was fallen back onto because of pressure from his success. Vegeta being popular is why he got characterization and got revived (I, like many I presume, like the rivalry, which became the main focus in Super)
I will add another mistake, which isn't really an inconsistency but I think a dumb explanation that flies against the ace of the message of the manga, is the S cells. It's literally like midichlorians in Star Wars. He had a much better explanation before that, SSJ is a response to an intense emotion, a desire for strength and with the previously defined zenkai boost of the Saiyans (recovering from near death makes them stronger, which makes sense as an evolutionary adaptation for a warrior race) it fits in nicely. But then he gave us S cells. Not the same level of mistake on a writing standpoint but I thought it was a terrible world building mistake. (btw, the zenkai boost also, imo, explain why they weren't able to fight off Freeza's army; they targeted weaker species, they relied on their Oozaru transformations, they rarely exploited their genetic advantage, hence they weren't as strong as they could've been)
Though it was a mistake, I still appreciate everything Toriyama gave us, RIP legend
Don't have the chance to watch yet but just wanted to say thanks for the great content. Always love listening to these while I game.
I thought Toriyama Made it clear he intended to transition to Gohan. He expressed it was challenging to write for this character type, so he changed direction, per my humble memory.
“The Final Bout” 😂
Final boat
I dont dispute for a second the end of the cell saga was perfectly done and much stronger. With that said, the ending to the buu saga i think is extremely appropriate to the spirit of dragon ball itself. Once again evil had its heart changed and turned into good. Which was a core theme of the series since literally chapter 1(bulma wanted to trick and steal the 4 star dragon ball from goku.) The ending of the series was very true to life. Maybe it wasnt the best ending for the fans BUT it was the happiest ending for the characters. Gohans heart wasnt into fighting and world saving despite his ability. Goku just fit that slot way better. Gohan became the scholar that he wanted to be. Son's dont always follow in their father's footsteps despite their ability. It was a very spur of the moment ending but i think it represented toriyama's approach very well and gets the job done appropriately despite not being as TERMINAL as the cell saga ending which was so definitive.
Love your content Mike! 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
RIP TORIYAMA
Toriyama should have ramped up Gohan's development into the protagonist during the Android/Cell Saga. Plague of Gripes has a great video on that.
Plague of Gripes emphasizes how Gohan doesn't work as a protagonist the way Toriyama wrote him. And he's right.
@@kevintanza6968 Akira Toriyama is Dead😭😭😭😭😭😭😭.
@@kevintanza6968 ofc it would not work. If you wrote smart and brave character who fights himself to unlock true power, and in the next arc he is fcking clown wearing power ranger suit. Toriyama instead of developing/following Gohans character made a mix of Gohan and Goku.
Worth noting that Toriyama had not killed Gohan until the Boo arc. He had evaded death until he was no longer considered special, though you could argue Future Gohan was one death, but it was a seperate timeline.
It was also implied Gohan would have finished the fight with Super Boo if Goku hadn't interveined. He had been fully healed and despite being at a disadvantage, had time on his side with the fusion about to run out.
I personally think that Toriyama did fail to make Gohan a compelling main character in the Boo arc, though the right pieces were there for it to work. He should have forced Videl into danger in order to create that urgency for Gohan and the reader, and also strengthen their relationship. He was basically setting up a coming of age story for Gohan to become a man but botched the execution and left him with a conselation girlfriend and power up that barely felt earned.
Well Gohan would of died against fat Buu is not for shin & his helper
Gohan got broken Neck on Namek, also Nappa almost killed him.
I really wanted gohan to be the main character,sure I love goku,but gohan's been my favorite character since the day I started watching dragon ball z,I didn't know dragon ball existed,toonami was showing DBZ long before I ever seen dragon ball,so I instantly fell in love with gohan
Rip AKIRA TORIYAMA
I think Toriyama just couldnt write dragon ball without Goku , I mean he didnt even expect except a few manga chapters in the beginning of dragon ball.
From what I've read, the reason why both Goku and Vegeta were brought back into the story at the end of the Buu Saga was due to popular demand by the fans in Japan, as they were both ranked above Gohan in the fan polls at the time. Clearly they preferred the story of Goku and Vegeta's rivalry over Gohan's development, even though both stories had been pretty well intertwined for most of DBZ.
What's more, apparently the fans in Japan disliked the Cell Saga for being too dark and too Western-like, even though that's why most of us overseas fans praise it so (though I still prefer the Saiyan Saga and Frieza Saga combined). Geekdom 101 pointed out in a video that one of the biggest differences between Goku and Gohan's characters is that Goku represents Eastern philosophy while Gohan represents Western philosophy, so I can understand why the Japanese fans preferred Goku as the main character.
I know Toriyama is quoted as saying he simply decided Gohan was unsuited as the main character, but that doesn't mean he came to that decision all on his own. Could've been his editors or, again, could've been the fan polls. Or even both.
I think it was a matter of shonen and the editors pushing for Dragon ball to continue rather than Toriyama making a mistake. Maybe it was a mistake to listen to those editors but then again we wouldn’t have gotten Cell, and #19 and #20 would’ve been the final villains for the android saga if it weren’t for editorial suggestions. But Who knows maybe Toriyamas original plan would’ve been better than Cell arc?
His original plan was just #19 and #20. Editors are often treated as villains but they can help keep a story going in the right direction. And someone like Toriyama definitely needs strong editorial to get the best out of him.
It's no coincidence that Team Four Star also felt burnout upon completing the Cell Saga as well.
Obviously to each their own but the biggest issues for me with ending after Cell is Goku's decision to stay dead was wrong and Gohan didn’t want to be "the hero" like his father (which is also why Ultimate Gohan's powerup doesn't really fit, at least the way it happened). Thats why I like the Buu ending better, they got to live life how they wanted to, and the seeds for humans to become stronger was planted. While Uub is the reincarnation of Kid Buu, it was highlighted that he is 100% human, not an alien or hybrid, and while Goku did leave his family and friends, he was still on Earth passing on what he had learned to someone who did seemingly actually want to learn to get stronger for others.
My hot-take: Toriyama only gave up on Gohan and brought back Goku because he wanted to kill the series and stop writing for good, and he knew that since Gohan was still a relatively fresh character with a lot of depth and not linear like Goku, he would have to keep writing had he chose to stick with that direction.
I truly feel him trying to say "Gohan wasn't fit to be the main lead" was a copout, because not only does Gohan's character feel synonymous to the typical shounen protagonist personality, but the entire damn Z story was pretty much all about Gohan's journey, and Z is regarded as the best dragonball series of all time
Gohan isn't a typical shonen protagonist at all. Goku set the standard for shonen protagonists and Gohan couldn't be more different.
Fantastic explanation, Mike.
The natural progression “seemed” to be Goku-> Gohan-> Trunks.
Where did Uub come from??? 🤣🤣🤣
It was lazy writing (which led to the convoluted ending of the Buu Saga); because, Toriyama only came back, to appease the fans.
Just like superstar athletes in American sports: Toriyama didn’t know when to stay retired.
To me, Gohan wouldn’t make a good main protagonist. He’s always been more timid/reluctant. He tells Cell that he doesn’t want to fight him. Piccolo knows that fighting isn’t his interest. It’s just something that he happens to be good at. I disliked the start of the Buu Saga. Wasting time on Gohan in high school…lame Great Saiyaman…
While I think other characters need more time in the spotlight, DB is, always has been, and always will be Goku’s story. Goku sought adventure, new challenges, etc. Gohan did so when he had to to.
In the end, the difference between a proactive hero (Goku) and a reactive hero (Gohan).
Love the video Mike Totally Agree with your points on why Gohan should of been the main character after Cell's defeat and Goku's farewell. I liked the arc of Gohan going to high school, becoming a superhero, getting a girlfriend and his Ultimate Upgrade though my hopes all went out the window after Gohan got absorbed by Super Buu and after Kid Buu blew up the earth and destroyed Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Piccolo along with it.
Once again, I have to say GT made the right choice by sending Goku away forever, to make it crystal clear to the audience that this is THE end.
Happy belated B-Day! Great video!
The guy didnt wish for immortality.
Great video. This is so crazy i'm rewatching the Buu saga now. You can see from the Great Sayiman saga that the buu arc was intended for Gohan to be it's main protagonist. For him to lose to BUU twice was ridiculous. First to fat buu and then to buutenks. In additition It makes it so strange that why didn't Mystic Gohan just stall Buu Tenks until he defused. There was so much potenital for the BUU saga but sadly it felll flat.
Toriyama was thinking about making Godfather scenarios for Gohan
Him making Minus
I love your videos I don’t comment much but I really do love your videos it be so much I forget about so many potholes I forgotten about no matter how much I know about db dbz dbgt and love it’s a lot of hidden things I don’t even remember and coming to your channel brings back memories and I thank you for that
I completely agree. Wish we could have gotten what if scenarios for gohan being the protag in the video games or something else at least.
Great video. I feel exactly the same about this and always hated how the Buu arc progressed after Gohan is defeated by Buutenks for that reason.
The only silver lining as a lifelong fan has been the Super Hero movie. While the movie is certainly not perfect, it gave me a glimpse of how the story -should- have progressed and I absolutely love it for that. I know that we’ll be forcefed more of Goku and Vegeta whenever the series returns, but at least we did get a little love letter in the form of Super Hero.
Toriyamas biggest mistake was not having a Buugeta or Buuku form vs Gohan killing his dad one last time or Vegeta making the final sacrifice.(battling buu from the inside mentally) I hate the purple alien goo that took over Vegeta we got in Super as a cop out what if. Gohan yelling for Dende and Hercule instead of Picollo and Gotenks when they both had barrier techniques makes no sense. He used the barrier in the Cave against Buutenks and didnt when he had the earing if it got to that point made no sense. I say this as the fusion Saga being my fave bc future animes would capitalize on combining characters for greater purposes.
Vegeta's role is to cause problems, not solve them. And he already made a useless sacrifice against Buu. Would be absolutely pointless to bring him back just to sacrifice him again.
Nope.
I never hated Gohan's scholar side but i still knew he was destined to be a warrior... especially shown in earlier z... however sadly his devolution was bound to happen. In fact, it happened it notably his greatest moment: turning super Saiyan 2. Him not being a fighter was something regurgitated by android 16 and piccolo, giving this image that Goku forced him out there leading to Goku's sacrifice looking like owning up for his mistake of believing Gohan was a fighter...
Don't get me wrong though I loved Gohan's Saiyaman arc, very spider-man down to earth hero vibes. It also still made him the main character at that point. However ever since that tournament began, plus the Dabura fight, leading to his embarrassing loss to super Buu, Gohan was officially... a "loser".
I don't hate the character though at his current point but it's just sad to see he doesn't care anymore. Even In Superhero he says, "who cares, we got Goku and Vegeta". Not verbatim, but still.
have you seen casual anime fans video on this topic a summary of it is that he says that gohan was not fit for the role of a shonen anime but instead the light hearted saiyanman arc because he doesnt like to fight. but the fans didn't want that, they wanted fighting so he introduced buu and used ultimate gohan to show that he isn't goku
Amazing work as always 😊😊😊
F in the chat for Akira Toriyama. 😢
I don't think it was a mistake. Toriyama began to realize that Gohan just doesn't really fit that role. It's not even what Gohan himself wants. He hates fighting.
I agree, because there was a reason that future trunks want to change the future because future gohan became earth protector and die for it, but it is something that he had to not something that he wants, and I can argue that a future gohan see present be he be the most happiest.
Well you did it again .. perfect video
Mike, your progress and consistensy in your workout and diet is incredible 🙌 I'm very happy for the change and progress you have made. It looks like you lost a lot of weight 💪🦾 keep it up. Amazing job 👏
I agree that it should've ended at the Cell Games with Trunk's epilogue.
While the stuff after the Cell Games have good moments, but I would argue Dragonball peaked at the Cell games.
The problem with Uub that is not just that he is just replacing better characters who are more liked, he is also thrown out there as a replacement with basically no build up or development towards it in a narrative sense. Gohan was heavily foreshadowed to be the strongest and to take Goku's place for a long time. Regardless, it's just more narratively satisfying and appropriate for Gohan (the one who had the most dramatic-style character development and who has the strongest connection to Goku) to take Goku's place.
Toriyama should have realized that if you are going to subvert an idea you have been building towards for a long time, you need something even more compelling to take its place. If you think about Dragonball since the beginning and the ending being the Frieza saga originally, the subversion of Goku being a Saiyan and then Gohan eventually surpassing Goku in the Cell saga fits the bill as a decent switch up or retcon, and the story naturally worked towards that new conclusion(s), because it has enough connection to what we expect based on prior knowledge. The Buu saga is inconsistent with what it is driving towards both tonally and narratively, and introduces new concepts that have no foreshadowing, buildup or explanation, plus it abandons multiple previous ideas recklessly, which is why the conclusion is ultimately so unsatisfying.
Also, if you strip everything away, Gohan still has the most depth and most interesting traits and was crafted by Toriyama when he had completely transitioned Dragon Ball away from a gag manga to a more serious shonen manga with dramatic stakes. Goku can never be the full realization of the ultimate main character for Toriyama because he was never meant to be taken so seriously when he was brought into being unlike Gohan. For example, by design Goku can't really grow very much, because one of his main traits is carefree "innocence" and ignorance, so he relies on other more interesting characters to bounce off of and needs other vessels to be serious in order to ground the story.
Unfortunately, Toriyama gave up trying to tell the story he wanted to tell and tried to make a story that gave the fans what they thought they wanted instead of sticking to his vision. It still worked in the Cell saga because he obviously still had a lot of passion for the project and didn't throw away his central idea about the journey of Gohan, but it didn't work when he focused on serving different parts of the audience in the Buu saga.
He wasn't trying to subvert anything. He just felt that Gohan didn't work as a protagonist for a series like Dragon Ball
@@theking8347 I meant subvert as in the audience expectation based on the current trajectory of the story, rather than in terms of subverting general story tropes. And Gohan worked as a protagonist until Toriyama wrote himself into a corner with how he developed Gohan post-Cell saga time skip. Gohan was way more popular during the Cell saga, and for good reason: we saw his struggles and actual growth up until that point. He still felt like he was always in over his head and being forced to do things he didn't want to do just to survive, and then for some reason he stopped taking things seriously and became a clumsy idiot during his teen years for no reason.
To be fair Uub never really got a chance to be liked like Goten or Kid trunks
You’re absolutely wrong, what do you mean no narrative sense ? Goku literally wished for kid buu to come back as a better person it fit narratively perfectly
@@romart03 The reincarnation of Buu is fine in a certain sense I guess, but there is no reason why Uub had to be destined to take Goku's role, which is an unfair bar to clear for such a superflous character. I do have an issue with how a reincarnated character like Uub basically overwrites the original, and it brings up questions about other characters that were evil and were not "purified" for reincarnation but became good just through character development. Imagine if Vegeta or Piccolo were denied a chance to redeem themselves: it would make for a much less compelling story, and their flaws are what make them interesting and relatable. I do not want to imagine a goody Vegeta or a human-looking Nameless Namekian. This is the crux of the Uub problem.
With regards to Dragon Ball shortcomings, I think it was a missed oppurtunity where they could've had Kami be the one to teach master roshi's master the Mafuba. Its implied and stated that Kami is stronger than Demon King Piccolo so why didnt he confront him during his reign of terror?? An interesting path Toriyama could've gone was have Kami be afraid of confronting his evil half for whatever reason and building up the courage to confront piccolo jr during the 23rd tenkaichi budokai. Why would Piccolo try to regain his lost youth when his older half is older and closer to death and old age?? Of course, the meta reason is that Kami didnt exist in Toriyamas head in the beginning or halfway through the arc. Who taught Roshi's master the Mafuba, and how did Kami know that technique???
I believe the mistake is not undoing the whole "Gohan becomes the main character" thing it's actually continuing the series at all.
It was shown in the series that Gohan mindset isn't like the other. He doesn't like fighting. It's that same fact that Goku didn't realise that costed his life. Goku fights cause he likes while Gohan does it as a means to an end.
He does like fighting tho, he just doesn’t like killing. But regardless after that speech to Cell gohan got another speech from 16, had Goku die cause of his arrogance, on top of 7 years of growing up.
Cause if you ended the series after the Cell Saga it woulda been with Gohan protecting the earth similar to how it was in the Bojack and Broly movie
“Gohan can never be the main character.” 🤡. Gohan was always Him and will always be Him.
Makes you wonder why he accomplished fuck all in the buu saga and isnt even fucking relevant in super.
@@DarkEclipse23 That's changed toirairow excuse my awful spelling.
@@DarkEclipse23He's relevant right now in Super though and there's no need to wonder, we know it's Toriyama's poor writing that's why Goku in Super is reverted into a man child.
@@cheeseburgerfreddy6350 Akira Toriyama is Dead😭😭😭😭😭😭😭.
@@orangeslash1667 Yeah I heard the news, very sad.
many writers get a feel for their characters beyond what the readers do and we can see that before the martial arts tournament, Gohan is enjoying his time at school but has this sense of obligation to help people, he is awkward and often having troubles. We know from the Cell Saga that Gohan hates fighting, he doesn't just dislike hurting people, he hates combat. Which is why it makes sense he would rather enjoy peace than continue training, the real problems come in when he is constantly having this regression of training then not training, if he was left to his own devices and allowed to just enjoy being the family man I would hardly call it a disgrace to Gohan's character, he would have finished his fight and laid his anger to rest against Cell. Having Gohan the temporary focus until Goku's return would make sense, and Toriyama has shifted focus before but Gohan getting that massive Ultimate power and falling for the exact same trap he KNEW got his father killed is what really cinched the idea of Gohan's character being ruined.
Damn he's death
In my imagination, it would've been better if Gohan stayed the new main character (especially with the OG Trunks-like character design). But I wouldn't call it a mistake. The Buu saga grew on me a lot, I don't have any negative feelings about it today outside of overdoing the Gotenks shenanigans (and Gohan being nerfed does suck). But outside of those I like what we got overall, and maybe Toriyama would've felt like rushing to end it even quicker if he stayed with Gohan. Maybe Gohan would've been different in personality *shrugs*. Toriyama's biggest mistake is prolly signing off on Dragon Ball Super (outside of the movies) lol
The problem was he made all of Goku's kids just copies of goku
You also gotta take into consideration the constant trope of Goku being sidelined for most arcs while giving Gohan time to be heavily featured. In the Saiyan arc Goku is dead. In the Namek arc he is either injured or traveling behind the other characters. In the Android arc he has the heart virus. In the Buu arc he is restricted due to being dead and on a time limit. And even though it's filler, Gohan was THE main character of the Garlic Jr arc.
If any of that doesn't set Gohan up as the new main character then I don't know what does.
Toriyama dropped the idea though because it wasn't working. He just wasn't feeling Gohan as a protagonist
Gohan is better as a support character then a lead character.
@@theking8347 Akira Toriyama is Dead😭😭😭😭😭😭😭.
Very great video thank you ❤
The timing of this video wasn't great-
He obviously didn't expect his passing
He couldn’t have known dude. I’m sure that he will make a tribute video for toriyama sensei
He was already dead when he posted this he died 1 week ago only his family and Co workers knew
The biggest plot hole is Goku just had to teleport and grab Gohan to kill Kid Buu lol
Nothing is wrong. Goku > Gohan
Toriyama just doesn’t want any character outside of Goku to be the main character lol. Cause with a 7 year time gap after the Cell saga there were numerous ways you coulda molded gohan’s personality. But instead he resorted to making Gohan a study addict, Goten/Trunks forever childish, and dragging out Super as long as possible to avoid Uub to avoid moving on
Toriyama loved subverting expectations, for much of the series it was almost the core under lying theme. As such I suspect Toriyama felt, by the start of Z, that the series was starting to become predictable, and needed to find a way to shake that up. Goku was always the hero who defeated the big bad, and and we hadn't really ever had any question at any point in the series who was going to get the W (against the villian, what made the WTs fun was they were less predictable since there was less at stake), we always knew it was gonna be Goku. So Toriyama decided to add another character who COULD be the hero, felt like he SHOULD be the hero, instead in an effort to keep us guessing. Any other new character we'd probably have pressed X for doubt, but the son of the hero, it just made sense Goku would pass the torch to him, so I think he really succeeded in making people wonder. Of course he had no intention of any one else getting the W, but now it wasn't as obvious, now he could keep letting goku be the star WHILE subverting expectations.
It worked in the saiyan saga, and again in the namek saga, each time he did stuff to make us think Gohan was going to be the new torch bearer, and each time it was still goku it felt better as a result, because it hadn't been so obvious. Then came the cell arc, at this point Toriyama realized he'd gone to the fake out well with Gohan one too many times, no one really believed he was going to replace goku anymore, so Toriyama decided to use that to subvert expectations in another way. He removed all the references to Gohan's potential from the story (seriously, it was brought up constantly in the previous arcs and then suddenly its not mentioned at all for this entire arc) with the hope that by the end of the arc, people would no longer be thinking of Gohan as a potential heir, that like so many other strong characters who briefly seemed on Goku's level before him, the reader would believe Gohan had settled into his role as a side kick to the real hero, Goku. And then, bam, we finally get gohan as the hero.
But of course what did that mean? It meant now the expectation would be that he'd be the hero going forward, so for his final arc Toriyama decided to pull out all the stops, throwing in as many potential characters who could get the W as possible to keep the reader guessing, while constantly hinting it would still be Gohan in the end... only for it not to be, for his favorite character Goku, to get one last W because at that point he was arguably the least likely one to get it in a world with multiple fusions, ultimate gohan, and Majin Vegeta.
TLDR: I don't personally think Toriyama intended for gohan to become the main character, instead I think he was always just a useful tool for subverting our expectations, which was Toriyama's MO and part of what made his work so compelling. When we thought he would be the hero, he wasn't, when we finally gave up on him being the hero, he was, and then when we assumed he' be the new hero, he wasn't.
RIP Toriyama
I will always be mad of how they did Gohan during the later parts of the Buu arc. Why? Because Mystic Gohan is the strongest non-fused character at that point. He's stronger than SS3 Goku. So why did they need to use the Spirit Bomb when Gohan, whose leagues more powerful than Goku or Buu could have just done the job the moment he was revived.
Goku: "I know! You're going to get Gohan and Gotenks to fight with us!"
Vegeta: "Start making ready for.... GENKI-DAMA!!" ... "Let the Earhtlings save themselves for once!"
Yeah it's dumb. Goku could've teleported Gohan and the others faster than he could've made the Genki-Dama. It's just the excuse they used for plot reasons as to why Goku was the one to get the win.
In my opinion, they shouldn't have brought back Goku and Vegeta, and had Gohan finish things against Super Buu (the Gotenks fusion wore off inside Buu the moment Goku came back anyway). From the moment Goku came back to life, until the end; it all felt contrived.
They were dead people always forget that they didn’t come back till after the second or third wish goku was already holding spirit bomb an it still wasn’t big enough then they had to wish goku back to full power
@@tonyrambo4257 Vegeta doesn't mention using the Spirit Bomb until AFTER the Earth and everyone was restored. Kibito Kai could have literally teleported to Earth and grabbed Gohan before they ever initiated the Spirit Bomb.
Getting Gohan wouldn't guarantee anything. Kid Boo could have absorbed him or just blew up the planet.
@@kevinlee9929 He could have wiped Kid Buu out in an instant and given what happened last time, Gohan would have predisposed to do it. Plus, he'd have Goku and Vegeta backing him up. You can try to justify why Toriyama shelved Gohan but it doesn't change the fact that he wrote them betting everything on the Spirit Bomb, a plan that hit several snags, versus simply having Vegeta and Goku play distraction for Gohan who could simply destroyed Kid Buu, given the vast difference in their power.
Gonna piss off a lot of fans with this vid. People really grew up watching Dragonball z and failed to see he was clearly laying everything out for gohan to be the main.
A lot of people don’t understand (is 90s kids) Goku was always the main, that was never going to change. I’ve been watching dragon ball since day 1. When the cell saga came about on Toonami, I freaking loved it that gohan got an insane power up but dude….we’re talking about Goku, inspired by sun wukong. It always had and always will be Goku. He did it right ❤
This really hits hard after the news. Especially thst ending. Who could've known thay when this was posted the man was already gone. Rest in power, Toryiama-sensei
Well written and thought out where I'll state that #2 would still have to do with Gohan, and also Chichi.
The very beginning of DBZ.
Gohan never got any training.
Goku world class martial artist that continued to train for those 4 years.
Chichi also a world class martial artist, and one of the reasons that she fell for Goku in the first place.
And Gohan didn't train at all? Not even copying his dad while Goku was training?
Never made sense to me.
I think Toriyama should’ve either made Gohan the main character and stuck with it or just ended the show after the Cell Saga.
Dragon Ball will be dead if it ended its salsa that's a true fact and on top of that let it Go on was the main character in Boosie or whatever ruined it no super Saiyan 3 no Goku and Vegeta fight no fusion would have been ruined instead of Goku being there
@@leosnyder5264 Did you proofread this before you send it? 😅 I’m not sure if I’m catching what you’re throwing.
It was obvious Gohan was Z's main character, look a the fact Akira killed off literally every former Dragon Ball character, and only Gohan remained, Gohan always seemed to escape death, and Gohan without question got the most screen time, its why I cant understand why the character was swept completely under the rug and off of a bridge in the Dragon Ball universe, Gohan should be a universally known anime character, but he has been completely background, I wish people would watch DBZ and see who Gohan really was before this new age Gohan bs, this scholar Gohan of the past 30 years has been total bs. The last 18 episodes probably are what makes me not have Z as my GOAT anime, when I saw Goku return with the rings like he did, and Vegeta revived even though he did all those atrocities, yet Goku got only 1 day back after having a literal A+ as far as his good behavior in life, I knew Gohan was about to get the permanent shaft, that was the worst death in anime history, really Toriyama? Killed in his sleep?
I was reread reading the series And it really seemed like.
He was rushing through the boo arc. Just to be done with it like he want to do something else.
W content mike!
and now hes dead
Hits different
How I see it, the man (Toriyama) knew his characters well enough to know how they would fit a role. I respect his decision with Gohan. Also, the story of dragon ball has always revolved around Goku being the main character, he was never going to be shafted to a supporting role.
The mistake wasn't trying to take it away from Gohan the mistake was trying to make Gohan the main character to begin with, Toriyama didn't want to change Gohan's personality to make him like Goku because he keeps his characters consistent, as he said Gohan likes to study more than he likes to train which means he'll never be a good main character for a martial arts story.
That's BS. It makes Gohan far more compelling and relatable. It gives him depth and has him struggle with more than just the villain of the week, but also other aspects of his life.
Also, being a scholar (a person who studies and specialises in an area) would lead Gohan to become the greatest martial artist - by studying under all the other masters / Z fighters. I mean; in some canons Gohan is supposed to go on to write the book about ki. It would make sense for him to study it in-depth, learn from those who have far greater control over it (such as humans, namekians, yardratians, etc), and become the master of ki to the point of reaching godhood (like Goku does in GT).
On the flip side.... we have Goku in Super who just wants to fight stronger and stronger opponents. Boring.
@@EndoScorpion literally all you did was just give me head Canon lol
The problem with Gohan is he is too contempt and sedentary, he doesn't like to train he doesn't care about going on adventures. He's not interested in fighting which means he never gives 100% simply because it's mine will never be into it. he's perfectly fine to lock himself in his office and spend all of his time studying which means that bad guys have to be created to come looking for him rather than the other way around like Goku. And the fact that Gohan will never want to train as hard as he can because it's not what he's interested in, it means that it's more forced whenever he wins.
You would have to change Gohan to be more like Goku or you have to turn him into Superman who sits around waiting for bad things to happen which was two things that Toriyama did not want to do, he didn't want to write Dragon Ball like a DC comic and he didn't want to change his character because he's a good writer who likes to keep his characters consistent.
And no it would not make Gohan the greatest because he's a scholar because he's clearly not interested in studying martial arts Gohan is a biologist who studies insects. Please don't be one of those people who thinks that Gohan's actually smarter than Goku he's not he's just more educated.
You're literally just giving me your fanfiction of how you would have written the story and changed Gohan into somebody that he's not so you can turn Gohan and into what you want him to be rather than what Gohan actually wants to be and the story and how Toriyama would have written it lol
And it doesn't make Gohan more relatable because everybody rolls their eyes with him the only people he'd be more relatable to our people who are self-centered and selfish and just want to do their own stuff are there ridiculously naive when they know that the universe is full of people who can destroy the planet just by flicking their wrist. You're just giving me how you would have written the character or how you think he should have been written versus how he was written at the time and Toriyama had to make a decision. Toriyama made the absolute right call because he knew he'd either have to turn Gohan indigo to keep the story going or turn the story into a Superman story which were two things he didn't want to do.
It's like I've said before Gohan is a soldier Goku is a warrior, a soldier is willing to fight and give what he can to fight the good fight but in the end of the day he just wants to retire and bury the hatchets and live his life while a warrior as soon as they win the fight they go out looking for their next fight which naturally moves the story along.
I am so sick of Gohan Stan's not getting this lol
It's also the fact that Gohan is so busted as of a character that if he ever decided to get serious and trained like Goku he would leave everybody so far in the dust that everybody else on the team would become irrelevant the only people who could have kept up with him would have been Goten and Trunks and he didn't want to turn the entire story and then nothing but them, he didn't want to turn it into Gohan Flex bad guy blow up or have to make bad guys that are so busted that nobody else was even helpful anymore. Toriyama knew that he would have to Nerf Gohan to be able to keep everybody relevant but he knew he couldn't do that because that's what everybody loved about Gohan was that he was so busted
God I wish people would actually think of this before they start typing lol
That don’t even make sense lol. Vegeta is a main character that makes a change. Plus Gohan as a kid was nowhere near addicted to studying in Z
@@dominiquerobinson8888 the only thing Vegeta does is go from being a bad guy to a good guy his urge to fight and get stronger and never changes. Gohan doesn't have that and he's not going to sporadically develop the need and want to fight. Vegeta is willing to go anywhere and do anything if it means to surpass Goku Gohan isn't he is perfectly fine with just staying on Earth and doing what he actually enjoys doing. You're trying to basically Force Gohan into becoming something that he doesn't want to do while Vegeta is still doing exactly what he wants to do. Everything that happened to Goku were either people that he bumped into on his way on his adventures for his path to power or they were reactions to previous arcs Gohan you don't get that. You basically have to turn Gohan into Superman
@@ChiChiLand299 No you don’t. First off Gohan never said he ain’t enjoy fighting, he said he ain’t enjoy the killing. And why do yall always pull the Superman card as if he’s the only superhero. Spider-Man for example fits the Gohan archetype perfectly. Gohan in the cell saga had a tragic event happen to him where Goku died due to his arrogance. Even if Gohan didn’t enjoy fighting, him knowing that it was his responsibility to keep up his training to protect the earth isn’t something forced. Super literally has him currently training for that reason