Kmax Type 1 Firefighting Helicopter Northern Ca. Fires
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2017
- A VERY capable heavy lift firefighting Helicopter
• Firefighting KMAX Heli...
Kman Company
• New K-Max helicopters ...
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www.arambedrosian.com
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A good video of this craft in action plus slow motion of the blade action-ruclips.net/video/NrRwvZCy-do/видео.html
Wow, now that's showing off!
That video you linked to was an amazing view from the KMAX in action - plus they had nice music choice
ruclips.net/video/NfRTw3-41tc/видео.html
I had a brain fart and couldn't work out the black magic of having the rotors that close. That video gives a good idea since the one you linked doesn't actually look at the rotors as it's spinning up slowly.
A video I found on RUclips
ruclips.net/video/QDEiwwzN-uM/видео.html
Thanks. Its like a giant egg-beater, with fixed gearing between the rotors and close tolerances!
Kaman has restarted the production line. The first new K-max went to China for fire fighting in July. This thing will lift 4500 lbs to 20,000 feet. Not long range, not fast, but for high and heavy there is nothing better. Technically, its a medium lift bird, but when you have a lot of density altitude, it just works. The endurance is 12 hours; this is probably because of lubrication requirements. The endurance on internal fuel tanks is 2:41. The sign on the mast warning to approach from front is no joke. That is the reason the egg beater rotor type was never popular in the civilian market. The Kaman factory uses an old HH-43 Huskie for transition training. The Huskie made more rescues in Vietnam than all other aircraft combined. These egg beater rotor systems are unexcelled when it comes to hovering. The type has a history going back to WWII.
I have worked around several K Maxx helicopters logging. Amazing little machine. It will pick almost as much as an S 61, and burns 85 gallons of fuel in an hour and fifteen minute cycle. Pilots however are whipped after at the end of the day. Never get in an arm wrestling match with a K Maxx pilot. Lol
Lived near Kaman Aerospace in CT back in the early 90s. First time I saw one I was surprised at just how quiet these things are. Cool bird! Glad to hear the production line is open once again!
The K-MAX actually has two swash plate mechanisms, but they're at the bottom end of the main vertical shafts instead of at the top as they would be on a conventional heli.
They translate cyclic and collective control inputs into simple linear movement of the servo actuator rods which run up the inside of the shafts and on out to the servo surfaces behind the blades. As with any other helicopter when a cyclic input is
made the pitch of the blades is continuously changing throughout their rotation. The blades also wobble (like a teeter totter) side to side and each blade half speeds up and slows down as it advances and retreats but these effects are managed passively.
Another quirk is that in addition to differential cyclic (one rotor tilting forward and the other back) it also uses differential lift to induce yaw rotation (much like an RC multirotor).
To yaw left (left pedal), it increases the collective on the right rotor (spinning clockwise as viewed from above) increasing its drag induced torque and decreases it on the left rotor decreasing it's drag induce torque, while net lift remains roughly the same. One strange result of this is that in auto-rotation (motor off), or in simply an aggressive descent where airflow is driving the rotors rather than the motors, the differential lift mechanism has to be reversed. If collective lever is in the 0-10% range, then a left pedal input causes the *left* rotor pitch to increase instead of the right rotor in normal flight. This reverser mechanism is seamless but unique to these closely spaced or coaxial rotor helis. Because there's a region in the collective lever throw where it's switching between forward and reversed torque operation, there is an additional mechanism called the "differential cyclic shifter" which temporarily boosts the differential cyclic effect while differential collective is minimal or zero.
At speed the large full flying elevator surface can be used to manage pitch, rather than having to rely as heavily on the cyclic. I seem to recall the K-MAX pilot I talked to told me that at highest speeds it had a tendency to want to pitch forward on its own so elevator also helps counter that.
A few years back during fire season in Montana/Idaho, a K-MAX would fly over our property twice a day (to and from the local airport). They're incredibly quiet, and the sound is simply like nothing else you've ever heard.
Do the unique forces on this help necessitate the wood spars, or is that just a quirky design idea that works? That sure is amazing that all that work is driven through wood blades.
Bit of both. They had a ton of data from the same wood core rotor blades on the well proven HH-43 Huskie flown in the 50's and 60's. I'm pretty sure the servo flaps actually twist the blades so a more rigid carbon or metal blade most likely would not work as well. Beyond that, it seems to be well understood in the engineering world that wood doesn't fatigue like metal. Wood maintains its strength over virtually indefinite bending cycles (think of a tree on a windy mountain ridge).
Come on, daemn42, you just guessed at all that teknicul stuff. We all know it's magic!
The old joke is that helicopters are so ugly they're just repulsed by the ground.
@@daemn42 The original Flettner rotor head(s) had bearings around which the rotor blades twisted, just like in a Bell or a Sikorsky. There was a swash plate and all the normal stuff. Charlie Kaman changed that for some reason so that the blades are fixed rigidly to the rotor head, they are hinged so that they can rock but they are fixed in pitch. The servo flaps are moved by the pilot and they in turn twist a portion of the blades to effect pitch changes desired by the pilot. I had the factory tour back at Kmax school. I had complete and utter faith in the performance and longevity of the blades but when I was looking at the blades they were finishing it looked like something someone put together in their garage. I don't know if the process has been changed but the blades were all handmade items. I can't remember the hour interval but periodically you had to send the blades back to the factory and they would strip and inspect the blades, refurbish and repaint and send them back. I can't remember if they were 10,000 hour life items or on condition. Been a while. Loaners in the meantime. It was not cheap.
Thanks Juan. The K Max is made by Kaman Corp. Same folks who built the HH 43 Huskie and the HOK hhelicopter used during the Vietnam War. Charles Kaman was quite the engineer and designer. As for wooden blades this is not the first use. Back in the old days helo pilots were made of iron and blades were made of wood and all you had to worry about was woodpeckers and blade fires. I flew hellos a long time ago...
It is so cool to have you reporting with the clearance that is granted you along with all your history around the air fields.
That is one of the most interesting helicopters I’ve ever seen, almost like the Chinook but opposite. The engineering behind this is incredible!
Great video Juan! K-max is restarting production on this helicopter for the military and civilian markets. So we will hopefully see some more of these on the firelines in the future!
thanks for the memories Juan! I used to drive for grand canyon helicopters and i think that's Ranier one of their divisions. Those blades can rub sometimes so they say that machine can have a mid air with itself. Also, the instructor goes outside on a bolt on jump seat. No BS! Finally, look up the optionally piloted version the marines use for fob resupply. Big cargo carousel slung underneath can drop ammo here, food there, etc. Amazing machine!
Thanks for taking the time to film this video. Very interesting amd educational pretty cool helicopter
Really appreciate your closeup look at this flying machine after seeing clips on the news.
Nice. Love the discussion and closeups of this design. Never heard of it before. Thanks
I'm retired now but I spent a fair amount of time logging and fighting fire in a Kmax. It's peculiar to be sure. You quickly learn to avoid moving the cyclic as much as possible. For example: Collective pitch movements have a noted effect upon pitch attitude. You come bombing in downhill to the landing with a turn of logs at a very low pitch setting. You pull back on the cyclic to raise the nose and flare to slow down and put the turn out in front of you. Nothing happens. Just pull in a little collective momentarily and the nose comes up like magic. Or another little quirk: You are facing uphill as you pull a turn of logs up through the trees. Maybe there is a downslope wind or the ground is very steep and with the tall trees you want to keep the slope in front of you so you can see it. You put in full pedal deflection to turn around and head down the hill. Nothing happens. Just a little pressure on the cyclic in the direction of the pedal deflection and you just spin around and you're on your way. Or: You are delivering the hook down through the trees to one of the chokersetters. You need to throw a whip down the line to move the hook forward because the guy is partially under a tree.....at a hover just momentarily put the collective down a ways and then right back up to hold a hover. The pitch attitude of the helicopter will go nose down momentarily and then back up. The hook responds by moving forward. Works just as well going the other way. Laterally, well, no. Much easier than using the cyclic. What most people don't realize is that the collective is actually boosted. For marketing reasons Kaman does not want to say it's got a hydraulic system so they call it a "limiter". It's supposed purpose is to limit the feedback forces from the rotor head being felt in the collective like they are in the cyclic. It's a hydraulic cylinder attached to the collective that squirts fluid in either side of a piston to create force......It's boosted. There is a thumb button on the cyclic that releases the cyclic trim mag brakes. You can trim the cyclic forces out. What I took to doing was gluing a small flat piece of plastic onto the top of the thumb switch. It was difficult to depress the switch, especially if you used it often. It was not comfortable to use, your thumb pad would become incredibly tender and sore after a while. The bit of plastic I put on top made it much more comfortable to use the trim release. I used the trim release all the time to move the cyclic around and it was a whole lot easier. Just press the button and put the cyclic where you needed it. I essentially flew the trim switch, not so much of a wrestling match that way. Oh. Don't do cross controlled descents at a hover. You know, lots of pedal one way and cyclic the other. You can get rotor head bumping. It never happened to me but it did happen to folks I know and they said they thought the end had come. One day you might be headed down the hill with a turn of logs or a bucket of water. The collective is near the bottom, there is a cross wind. Suddenly you get this sick feeling that you are going to swap ends at 80 knots.....you start to yaw and deflect pedal and nothing happens. Just a slight bit of cyclic pressure toward the deflected pedal and you'll regain pedal authority. Upshot is it's not like any other rotor system you will ever fly. If you can fly one of these things you can probably fly anything. Haha....if you want some insight into the twisted mind of engineers......look at the mixing levers under the seat. Good luck!
I've never seen these - Amazing what people think up. Thanks for sharing.
I didn't know Kaman were still around. Their intermeshing rotor idea still has merit today.
Very interesting work horse. Thanks Juan.
Can’t figure out how the heck that thing works.
Great video. Hats off to the brave pilots!
We have the rented the other big copter, N70958, the Erickson Crane copter to bring our Sea Container and drop it into the Rubicon Trail. It was supposed to be tomorrow, but CalFire held the asset. Now it's Nov 1-4 time frame.
I've seen these used for logging, those have a bubble side window so they can look down while the logging crew hooks up the timber to be flown out of the forest. These are used when there is no road access.
So interesting. Thanks for posting.
Thanks Juan, what a marvellous machine :)
Great video clip of the Kmax in action
Thank you, Juan. I've always wondered how those rotary wings could rotate without striking the opposing shaft. Your video, and the linked one, make it clear that the shafts are slightly off vertical allowing for what must be only inches of clearance.
Neat! Thanks, Juan!
What an amazing heli ... and very different rotor blades! Would love to see it airborne... must check out the link you added. Thanks Juan.
Great video.
Rare & Awesome looking Helicopter! 👍🏼
Great video, thanks
A beautiful helicopter! And to think Anton Flettner designed the intermeshing blades way back during WWII.
This rotor system reminds me of the Kaman helicopters flown by the USAF in the 1960's. The ones I remember were used by aircraft crash crews and carried a sphere of foam suppressant. I saw them in action at Da Nang AB in 1965. That is a long time ago now.
Juan, good to know you/family are Okay and hopefully neighbors and friends also. Bob
Thanks for sharing this I used to work on Jet Rangers and Twin Hueys never seen a chopper like this! ingenious design all about reducing weight as much as possible to increase load,brilliant!,going to check out the vid now, Glad you and your family are safe,Checked out The Union last night looks like progress is being made on these horrendous Cali fires I agree with one of the contributing writers about getting into the forests to remove as much dead fuel as possible.... gargantuan task!
I saw two different ones fighting the Taylor Creek Fire in Oregon a couple weeks ago. One was pulling water right out of the Rogue River in front of us as we were rafting down. That one was purple. The other was parked at the heli camp near my house. It was black with a red splatter on the front.
This is an awesome machine by Kaman Helicopters. Lift capacity is 6,000 lbs and can operate at 10,000ft too. Pure heavy lift machine. The counter rotating rotors also make it far more flyable in crosswinds too. The Navy tested this for ship to ship replenishment. Almost 1/4 th the hourly cost to fly vs a CH-47 they still use (🙄) and operates faster too in terms of load delivery cycles. The Marines have used an autonomous version in Afganistan for replen supply trips. Faster/cheaper / safer delivery.
Another unique part is the load hook attachment. It is on a roller system that lets it move side to side so the load is always under the rotor axis.
Kaman is actually a big supplier and repair house for rotor blades to the industry.
An amazing piece of engineering!
im a log truck driver, and i love to haul out from under a K-max. have on two occations. and yes they pull hard and all day long
Marcellus Jacobs, engineered and built wind driven electric plants used Stika spruce, he also developed the three bladed propeller and sold that idea to Curtis Aviation... IF I remember that correctly
Never saw one of those before, interesting technology!
I've seen one of those do a VERTREP with the Navy, it was on the MSC ship were were taking on stores from.
A very unusual machine, very nice!
Wow, TY that was awesome!
here in So. Oregon we see a lot of heavy lift Sky Cranes and other firefighting helicopters and jump planes, but never one of those!
large cajones must be necessary to pilot that Angry Bird, lol.
Hi Juan, very interesting helicopter, I'm amazed at the control dumping into those holding tubs, and surprised that they would have a camper that close to the craft with all the downwash , I would be afraid of flipping it. I was a crew chief on a CH 54 b when I was in the Army which is a wonderful aircraft .
Not having hydraulics was a quest for simplicity and economical operation. The predecessor to this machine, the Kaman Huskie was the same, and had a very good safety record.
I had no idea such a blade design existed!
Emergency Fire suppression choppers saved a number of pilots during crash landings at airports in Vietnam during the conflict, with a chopper we called the "HOK." They seem to be the grandfather to your Kmax Type 1. Same technologies I think? The HOK pilots would arrive and disburse foam on crash landing aircraft often within 15 seconds (15-seconds!!!) as compared to 3 or more minutes for the firetrucks. They saved the life of a friend of mine. In some cases before the pilot in parachute and his ejection seat hit the ground the chopper was spraying foam. The fireball was often huge and the HOK would seem to fly into the fireball and douse the fuel source. This reduced the incident of ejected pilot drifting down with chute open and landing in the fireball. I thought the HOK pilots deserved a medal of honor from the perspective I watched. i.pinimg.com/736x/bf/ab/ed/bfabed212d0d759dcebc4e0468458cf6.jpg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaman_HH-43_Huskie
Yeah, that's the chopper! Neat.
I saw the HH-43 in service at Hahn Airbase in Germany in the 60's. They were primarily aircraft firefighting Choppers. They had the ability to fly/hover fairly nose-up to push the fireball away from the pilot or aircraft. I think I remember there was a clamshell door at the rear to offload personnel. Cool bird!
Yeah, from the angle I was looking it looked like they flew right into the fireball. I thought they were goners when two separate 2,000 pound bombs went off. It threw the chopper through the sky and it was like a prize fighter taking a hard punch. They flew right back at the fireball and attacked it again. By then all the 20-mm was cooking off with bullets flying everywhere. If I could pen medals I would have penned a lot of them on those pilots....and they saved my friend's life.
I have seen the KMAX in action. Counter rotating blades. A good bucket drop helcopter, and medium lift helcopter for logging too.
What an amazing machine
a very intresting heli. i heard that KMan was restarting production. super cool vid. thanks
Yes they delivered their first new production units this year to a Chinese customer, and then committed to build 10 more through 2019.
They could have probably sold 20+ of these. Back in the day when Charlie Kaman was running the business he would have made 10 when they had rfq’s for 8 of them, parked the 2 until a buyer came along. Once the ‘corporate’ and bean counters took over they would not build until they had at least 10 firm orders.
Very strange but lovely craft. Thanks JB. 🐶. ... An interesting theory of how the fires started.... A meteor shower. Many accounts of sightings in California just before the fires,.. 😉 🌠
Wood blades on a chopper designed to fight fires. Hmmmm. LOL. All kidding aside, this is an incredible machine.
Thanks Juan, this was super interesting. I was wondering how those blades worked together.
The K-Max is made by Kaman Aerospace in Bloomfield, CT. K[Max is the model not the manufacturer Interesting tidbit of info, they also make Ovation Guitars...
Interesting! They also use wood in their helo blades.
The company made its start making guitar strings!
Great intersect twin rotor project
One correction Juan, these helicopters do have swash plates. They are located at the base of the rotor shafts and actuate rods that pass through the hollow shafts up to crank arms on the blades. They are very lightweight and Kaman calls them "cyclic control rings", but they are swash plates by definition.
Keith MacDonald thanks for the clarification!
years ago when i was at Dover AFBase we had one that was also used for fighting aircraft fires it was not as streamlined as the one in your video
They have actually recently restarted the manufacturing line for the Kmax.
Reminds me of the 1960's era Kamen Husky! The Husky had gasoline engine though!
That's one freaky machine you got there Juan....no tail rudder and wooden rotor blades!
Takes all sorts I suppose.
ChristophersMum You would be suprised how many rotor blades are wood, props too.
I'm into the mechanics of the Kaman's all of a sudden and where do I find a closeup of the servo tabs on the internet? Juan's channel. Thanks!
Thanks, Juan. It's kind of mind boggling trying to imagine how they synchronize those counter-rotating blades, must be mechanical linkage only?
Imagine being rich enough to hire one of these to fill your swimming pool...
There is only one engine so if you use gears to transmit the power they will never get out of time unless the transmission fails.
well thats interesting about the timber used for the blades, i grow S/P here near the coast west wales , never hear of it put to that use before,
Early Bell helicopters in the 1940s also used wood main rotor blades with stainless steel added to the leading edge for wear resistance.
Wicked kool !
Rotors look closer to 30 degrees offset, rather than the 90 degrees mentioned. The blades just need to clear the 'otherside' driveshaft/rotor connection.
Stephen Kirby the main rotor shafts are near 30 degrees, the blades are clocked 90 degrees to clear each other when rotating. There are some nice vids that show them at start up to see how they intermesh.
thinkyou
Tell the truth. You want to drive it.
They won't let you.
Stringed instruments are made of Sitka spruce. Is it music to your ears when the rotors are row, row, rotating?
Charles Kaman was also a guitar player and the man responsible for the round-backed Ovation guitar!
My dad flew 699rh for 18 years
Does this aircraft have the same ground effects sound profile as a helicopter with tail rotor?
No. A tail rotor contributes a lot of sound. The absence would make this aircraft (somewhat) quieter. I have not heard one of these in person. I am curious just what it sounds like!
I've heard a few Chinooks and the noise difference is quite noticeable from tailrotor choppers. The actual tailrotor seems to produce a noise that's pretty close to a conventional aeroplane prop, owing to them being about the same size, so you lose all of that pitch range and you're just left with the whup-whup-whup of the main rotor.
I have tilt rotor Ospreys fly over regularly, while still loud, the sound is very different.
The Wiki says only 38 were made and with only 19 still flying that seems like a high attrition rate... maybe?
hankus253 Many were used for logging. The pilots figured out you could faster cycle the heli by splitting the needles on the down slope (loaded) trip, then they would release the load and go from autorotation to basically full power lift. Played h*ll on the overrunning clutch and comtributed to crashes.
The were NOT supposed to be autorotating down with a load. Once the pilots started flying it how it was to be flown, per the manual it has performed very well. They also upgraded all the transmissions too several years ago across the fleet.
Kaman that is.
I have heard that this configuration is very stable, making hover easier.
Isn't the Army using UAV versions of these in Afghanistan for delivering supplies to remote locations?
Just before you said no swash plate I'm looking at the picture thinking, where's the swash plate? I am impressed but not surprised the blades are Spruce. Wood is a great material. It's a KAMAN, not Kamax.
K-Max Kayman?
Kaman is correct. The KMax is built by Kaman.
Spruce is the only thing strong enough ? what about carbon fiber ?
I think with carbon fiber you run into short service life limits.
interesting wurlybird
I want to try it
K-Max sounds like a Gym LOL
WOW, Easier to fly, than my Rotor way Exec.? Thanks..
I've often thought of building an exec. How do you like it?
Richard H I enjoyed the heck out of it. Just like a Lottery winner, to many instant friends. Sold it to a man inLa.. FUN, and I includes 2 of your rotary rating..as well.
Isn't the Kmax a Lockheed-Martin? Seen them in the air here in the Sierras. You should have gotten into the swinging load point.
ramosel Nope. Kaman Aerospace. Lockheed did convert several to fly autonomous though. USMC used them in Afghanistan to replenish troops.
The "impossible" helicopter. It looks like the blades would crash into each other.
What a freaky contraption. I get sea sick watching the posted video.
Here's some video of the K-max during pre-flight, engine start, and departure from Livermore taken a few years back. After it you'll see other rare or unique aircraft engine starts. What a wonderful aircraft!
ruclips.net/video/cnz7b_kSbLE/видео.html
Elan Head has a brief video on her time training in the K-max vimeo.com/117946802 She also did an amusing music video from footage of her time in the Kaman Huskie -- Shakin' ruclips.net/video/Gpbf0R3xUaY/видео.html
that's one strange fruit
It looks Russian. They build simple, reliable stuff.
Helicopters are not simple at all, that's why they cost so much more than airplanes to run and maintain.
Great heavy lift rig Juan, here is some more info on this KMAX. ruclips.net/video/5qqUdfSRFXw/видео.html
Juan, how can I get a 90's motor home to someone one who will need it for at place to stay? I am buying a shop and the Bounder is part of the deal. I do not want it. If you are on Face book friend me. Kai nielsen
Sorry, but I have to pull you up on this. but the true meaning of 'factoid' is a plausible lie, not an interesting/small fact.
Russian design?
Thanks for taking the time to film this video. Very interesting amd educational pretty cool helicopter