Ooh, I really like that final dual origin of the Daleks from both Kaled and the Dals - great way to reconcile the varying origin stories from the 60s and 70s, and would explain the design and limitations of the Daleks in the original Hartnell serial if they were Dal-originated rather than Davros Daleks
You know, stuff like this is usually quite frustrating for long running franchise but in the case of Doctor Who, it really can all be equally canon. You just need to come up with sufficiently tiny whiny explanations as to why. I wouldn’t be surprised if something like this had been done in expanded who already, but I’ve always thought it would be interesting to have a story where a character in universe acknowledges the contradictions. Like, if a reality, whooping visitor from a different reality comes to N space and is Home affied at how malleable the timeline is. It could be a meta acknowledgement of the self-contradictory history of the show and the opportunity to explore some themes relating to the kind of existential dread that knowing your whole life could be re-written at any moment could cause. It would be neat if this entity is particularly freaked out by the doctor due to their wildly, contradictory Origen stories from book in the show and expanded who. Then again, that might be two on the nose. Merry Christmas garlic bumps.
Always thought it would have been interesting to try and connect the comic origin of the Daleks into the TV series. Like some ancient version of them influencing their resurrection through Davros. 🤔
I consider the Daleks to be a fixed point, destined to arise no matter what anyone does to prevent it, quite likely resulting in timelines merging etc. The dual origin idea works considerably well as the tweaking of stories allows for a parallel development merging into a final design. Also much less of a temporal headache.
That definitely fits with the Twelfth Doctor's comment about the Cybermen, that they are an almost inevitable consequence of the development of a species. Daleks could then be thought of as essentially Skarosian Cybermen.
I think either that Dal is the species and Kaled is the nationality or, in the case of the comics that we have two (or more) timelines that the timelords might have tried to consolidate in order to make the daleks more dependant on a single figure (Davros, which would also explain the daleks more drone like behaviour post genesis, as well as their more straightforwardly genocidal stance on other beings)
I do like the idea of there being multiple origin stories for the daleks. I mean why the hell not the doctor who universe is so huge. Imagine if one day we see a war between 2 dalek factions with one stemming from davros and another from the dals or even a different species. They could have different types of designs and even maybe the way they talk while similar could have key differences. Maybe even different motifs.
I really loved your approach to this video. Your choice of Halo music, among other soundtracks I may or may not recognize, and that well-scripted intro made this feel mysterious, which actually feeds into the myth of the Daleks in-universe. Great work!
So that's why the dead planet daleks don't appear in genesis V good theory as to why both types of "first" Dalek look so different Yarvelling nicked davros MK1 designs
What’s great about Davros’ design is that it not only shows you how he was his own inspiration for the Dalek casings (one central eye, one manipulator arm and the wheelchair), but the designers also seem to have added some aspects of the Dal design into Davros almost as a wink and a nod to the original Dalek creators.
That's a good point, I hadn't considered that, he has the bulbous head and tapered jaw structure of a Dal Though going off the new lore, it seems Davros began implementing aspects of the Daleks into himself after perfecting the design, rather than basing the Dalek design on Kaled medical technology
@@theylivewesleep.5139 I've been thinking about this a lot since that Children in Need special aired, I think both origins are still valid (one being the pre-Time War/Classic Who origin story, and the new one being the post-Time War/New Who origin story) While I do like the idea that Davros based the Daleks off himself post-accident, that seems more like something a theoretical creator of the Cybermen would do I also like the idea that Davros designed his own life-support chair and eye to mirror his Daleks, to be more akin to them than his Kaled brethren, like he made the best of a bad situation and used it as an opportunity to test and implement Dalek technology on himself
@@dalekbumps nah nah nah, a Cyberman creator wouldn’t base the Cyberman off of himself, that rather goes against everything the cybermen are about. They are removed of their individuality, to have them based off of an individual is goofy. As for Davros, I didn’t enjoy the children in need special and since I’ve basically given up on the future of Who I’m fine with cutting it out of my personal narrative.
@@theylivewesleep.5139 The Cybermen strive for perfection, but they have reached the conclusion that perfection involves removal of emotions and a devotion to logic. That idea must have come from somewhere, and many Cyberman stories play on this idea by paralleling the Cybermen with egotistical narcissists - Tobias Vaughn, Erik Kleig, John Lumic, Mercy Hartigan - they all fit the archetype. As for personal narrative in regards to the Children in Need sketch - I don't really consider the show to have a 'canon' persay - it has lore, but by its very nature as a show about time-travel and temporal wars the in-universe story is bound to change and fluctuate. In New Who alone the timeline has been reset at least once with the Big Bang II, and the Time War is also responsible for many universal fluctuations including the destruction of several homeworlds of Classic Who monsters Big Finish have essentially confirmed that the pre-Time War universe timeline and the post-Time War universe timeline are distinct, with the war acting as a breaking point between the two, so anything New Who does to alter the timeline of Classic Who characters (The Master's drumming, replacing '80s Cybermen with Cybus ones, changing designs of Silurians, and potentially Davros' chair) don't overwrite the old lore, they simply fit alongside it as it's post-Time War equivalent, if that makes sense. I prefer to take this holistic approach because at this point Doctor Who's canon is impossible to sort out logically
It is an intertesting conjecture the slatless Daleks look like an earlyer version of the Travel machine Daviros created its possible that the delaks of the chronicals eara was a result of the docters medaling. it would also explane Daviroses absence for so long and why it took so long for the daleks to upgrade to slate equiped MK3 travel mechine. This would make 2 creaters of the Daleks Davirose the original creater and Yabelling who only used an early version of the travel machine as just that a machine he never planed for it to used by the dalek mutents when davirose did.
to me my preferable rationalisation of multiple dalek origins is the effect of the last great time war itself, it does sound like a lazy explanation, but it actually makes a lot of sense considering how many attempts there were to alter the dalek origin in both the show and the extended universe, this constant interference at various points in time could make drastic alterations to the entirety of skaro history, going as far back as altering the origins of thals and dals/kaleds. i think there is a great synopsis for a big finish story buried in there somewhere. there is already a story about the war master trying to alter genesis of the daleks, but it would be more interesting to me if the master went way back in skaro's past history trying to deal with dalek ancestor race in the most, um, "masterful" way and it backfiring most severely turning daleks from naturally evolved deeply bigoted but sophisticated society shown in 1960s stories into more plain soldiers of davros with much less free will and even higher lust for death and destruction. i also find curious the concept of a dalek from "the mutants"/"dalek invasion of earth"/"the chase"/"the dalek master plan" ending up in the davros timeline and expressing confusion and utter disgust with the notion that daleks could be conceived by a single individual, seeing any of davros creations as lesser than itself. lots of possibilities. time war was in a lot of ways done dirty by moffat and some of big finish stories, which made it way less interesting than it could have been, i still think that hearing "the nightmare child" and then finding out that its just a Very Big Dalek is disappointing. a lot of missed opportunities. or terry nation just forgot how did he call the dalek ancestors in 1963.
I really like the dual origin theory. In all honesty I don’t especially like the whole vibe of the Dalek origins in the comic, it all felt very Gerry Anderson-esque, not bad, but very safe, compared to Genesis of the Daleks which was way darker and more sinister, with loads of in-fighting and intrigue and murder. I don’t think the Dals are exactly a good fit in the role as the creators of the Daleks, given how evil the Daleks are, Davros just feels more on point.
So its kind of like the Alien franchise. Nobody "created" the Xenomorph. It's blueprints and DNA structure was just simply already there, waiting to be remade by someone or something.
Dal = fact. But they came first, not afterward. The planet took a long time to repair then the Kaleds had found hints of powerful ancient technology. The Kaleds have found only a few 'Old School' daleks: one was dumped into the Daleks' Asylum and there is an Ancient Dalek in 'Dalek Control' (magicians apprentice) that seems to have to obey the Modern Emperor (each would rather their own empires were the victor but they 'Control'(ed). Dal empire daleks required static electricty to move, but they had a force field that made them invulnerable, noting when that force field failed a human or a frankenstien monster could easily break them and throw them around. Dals did not live in Oblivion like that is Davros'es favorite dimension, their "Dardis" was full of light. Do note the severity of Dal Machine Daleks and Kaled Travel Vehicle Daleks have entirely operated nearly identical and parallel mission plans and events, but have barely encountered each other. (Cherry Red and Blue TV21 Dal-Daleks look like a copy of the future Daleks unending gung-ho for military activities and military victories and not too interested in the science operations those slow seeming Old Dr Who Daleks had seemed (perhaps they were 10,000+ years old and their slowness from old age is still coolness)
Ooh, I really like that final dual origin of the Daleks from both Kaled and the Dals - great way to reconcile the varying origin stories from the 60s and 70s, and would explain the design and limitations of the Daleks in the original Hartnell serial if they were Dal-originated rather than Davros Daleks
You know, stuff like this is usually quite frustrating for long running franchise but in the case of Doctor Who, it really can all be equally canon. You just need to come up with sufficiently tiny whiny explanations as to why. I wouldn’t be surprised if something like this had been done in expanded who already, but I’ve always thought it would be interesting to have a story where a character in universe acknowledges the contradictions. Like, if a reality, whooping visitor from a different reality comes to N space and is Home affied at how malleable the timeline is. It could be a meta acknowledgement of the self-contradictory history of the show and the opportunity to explore some themes relating to the kind of existential dread that knowing your whole life could be re-written at any moment could cause. It would be neat if this entity is particularly freaked out by the doctor due to their wildly, contradictory Origen stories from book in the show and expanded who. Then again, that might be two on the nose.
Merry Christmas garlic bumps.
Duel origin was the most interesting, as I always like it when retcons don't annihilate entire works of other authors fiction.
Always thought it would have been interesting to try and connect the comic origin of the Daleks into the TV series. Like some ancient version of them influencing their resurrection through Davros. 🤔
I consider the Daleks to be a fixed point, destined to arise no matter what anyone does to prevent it, quite likely resulting in timelines merging etc.
The dual origin idea works considerably well as the tweaking of stories allows for a parallel development merging into a final design. Also much less of a temporal headache.
That definitely fits with the Twelfth Doctor's comment about the Cybermen, that they are an almost inevitable consequence of the development of a species. Daleks could then be thought of as essentially Skarosian Cybermen.
@@TranscendentLion the Imperial Daleks for certain.
I think either that Dal is the species and Kaled is the nationality or, in the case of the comics that we have two (or more) timelines that the timelords might have tried to consolidate in order to make the daleks more dependant on a single figure (Davros, which would also explain the daleks more drone like behaviour post genesis, as well as their more straightforwardly genocidal stance on other beings)
Merry Christmas Dalek Bumps
Merry Christmas!
I do like the idea of there being multiple origin stories for the daleks. I mean why the hell not the doctor who universe is so huge. Imagine if one day we see a war between 2 dalek factions with one stemming from davros and another from the dals or even a different species. They could have different types of designs and even maybe the way they talk while similar could have key differences. Maybe even different motifs.
Fascinating analysis. I particularly love possibility of the existence of both origin stories and subscribe to that idea.
I really loved your approach to this video. Your choice of Halo music, among other soundtracks I may or may not recognize, and that well-scripted intro made this feel mysterious, which actually feeds into the myth of the Daleks in-universe. Great work!
Love when Mr Capaldi says dalek bumps
Terry Nation made them in his kitchen out of utensils ! A cheese grater, sink plunger, egg whisk etc. 🧐
Merry Christmas
I think the Dalek chronicles are part of the Peter Cushing movies because the original finale led into the second movie.
Merry Christmas, Dalek Bumps. Your channel has been educational. 😊
So that's why the dead planet daleks don't appear in genesis
V good theory as to why both types of "first" Dalek look so different
Yarvelling nicked davros MK1 designs
What’s great about Davros’ design is that it not only shows you how he was his own inspiration for the Dalek casings (one central eye, one manipulator arm and the wheelchair), but the designers also seem to have added some aspects of the Dal design into Davros almost as a wink and a nod to the original Dalek creators.
That's a good point, I hadn't considered that, he has the bulbous head and tapered jaw structure of a Dal
Though going off the new lore, it seems Davros began implementing aspects of the Daleks into himself after perfecting the design, rather than basing the Dalek design on Kaled medical technology
@@dalekbumpsI can’t say I’m a fan of it being that way round. The idea that this insane man remade his race in his own image is much cooler.
@@theylivewesleep.5139 I've been thinking about this a lot since that Children in Need special aired, I think both origins are still valid (one being the pre-Time War/Classic Who origin story, and the new one being the post-Time War/New Who origin story)
While I do like the idea that Davros based the Daleks off himself post-accident, that seems more like something a theoretical creator of the Cybermen would do
I also like the idea that Davros designed his own life-support chair and eye to mirror his Daleks, to be more akin to them than his Kaled brethren, like he made the best of a bad situation and used it as an opportunity to test and implement Dalek technology on himself
@@dalekbumps nah nah nah, a Cyberman creator wouldn’t base the Cyberman off of himself, that rather goes against everything the cybermen are about. They are removed of their individuality, to have them based off of an individual is goofy.
As for Davros, I didn’t enjoy the children in need special and since I’ve basically given up on the future of Who I’m fine with cutting it out of my personal narrative.
@@theylivewesleep.5139 The Cybermen strive for perfection, but they have reached the conclusion that perfection involves removal of emotions and a devotion to logic. That idea must have come from somewhere, and many Cyberman stories play on this idea by paralleling the Cybermen with egotistical narcissists - Tobias Vaughn, Erik Kleig, John Lumic, Mercy Hartigan - they all fit the archetype.
As for personal narrative in regards to the Children in Need sketch - I don't really consider the show to have a 'canon' persay - it has lore, but by its very nature as a show about time-travel and temporal wars the in-universe story is bound to change and fluctuate. In New Who alone the timeline has been reset at least once with the Big Bang II, and the Time War is also responsible for many universal fluctuations including the destruction of several homeworlds of Classic Who monsters
Big Finish have essentially confirmed that the pre-Time War universe timeline and the post-Time War universe timeline are distinct, with the war acting as a breaking point between the two, so anything New Who does to alter the timeline of Classic Who characters (The Master's drumming, replacing '80s Cybermen with Cybus ones, changing designs of Silurians, and potentially Davros' chair) don't overwrite the old lore, they simply fit alongside it as it's post-Time War equivalent, if that makes sense. I prefer to take this holistic approach because at this point Doctor Who's canon is impossible to sort out logically
It is an intertesting conjecture the slatless Daleks look like an earlyer version of the Travel machine Daviros created its possible that the delaks of the chronicals eara was a result of the docters medaling. it would also explane Daviroses absence for so long and why it took so long for the daleks to upgrade to slate equiped MK3 travel mechine.
This would make 2 creaters of the Daleks Davirose the original creater and Yabelling who only used an early version of the travel machine as just that a machine he never planed for it to used by the dalek mutents when davirose did.
Happy Christmas Dalek Bumps! Today marks 10 years since the paradigm Daleks were destroyed.
(Or were they?)
Merry Christmas! ;P
to me my preferable rationalisation of multiple dalek origins is the effect of the last great time war itself, it does sound like a lazy explanation, but it actually makes a lot of sense considering how many attempts there were to alter the dalek origin in both the show and the extended universe, this constant interference at various points in time could make drastic alterations to the entirety of skaro history, going as far back as altering the origins of thals and dals/kaleds. i think there is a great synopsis for a big finish story buried in there somewhere. there is already a story about the war master trying to alter genesis of the daleks, but it would be more interesting to me if the master went way back in skaro's past history trying to deal with dalek ancestor race in the most, um, "masterful" way and it backfiring most severely turning daleks from naturally evolved deeply bigoted but sophisticated society shown in 1960s stories into more plain soldiers of davros with much less free will and even higher lust for death and destruction. i also find curious the concept of a dalek from "the mutants"/"dalek invasion of earth"/"the chase"/"the dalek master plan" ending up in the davros timeline and expressing confusion and utter disgust with the notion that daleks could be conceived by a single individual, seeing any of davros creations as lesser than itself. lots of possibilities. time war was in a lot of ways done dirty by moffat and some of big finish stories, which made it way less interesting than it could have been, i still think that hearing "the nightmare child"
and then finding out that its just a Very Big Dalek is disappointing. a lot of missed opportunities.
or terry nation just forgot how did he call the dalek ancestors in 1963.
I didn't know daleks fight the quark
I really like the dual origin theory.
In all honesty I don’t especially like the whole vibe of the Dalek origins in the comic, it all felt very Gerry Anderson-esque, not bad, but very safe, compared to Genesis of the Daleks which was way darker and more sinister, with loads of in-fighting and intrigue and murder.
I don’t think the Dals are exactly a good fit in the role as the creators of the Daleks, given how evil the Daleks are, Davros just feels more on point.
So its kind of like the Alien franchise. Nobody "created" the Xenomorph. It's blueprints and DNA structure was just simply already there, waiting to be remade by someone or something.
🐙
Dal = fact. But they came first, not afterward. The planet took a long time to repair then the Kaleds had found hints of powerful ancient technology. The Kaleds have found only a few 'Old School' daleks: one was dumped into the Daleks' Asylum and there is an Ancient Dalek in 'Dalek Control' (magicians apprentice) that seems to have to obey the Modern Emperor (each would rather their own empires were the victor but they 'Control'(ed). Dal empire daleks required static electricty to move, but they had a force field that made them invulnerable, noting when that force field failed a human or a frankenstien monster could easily break them and throw them around. Dals did not live in Oblivion like that is Davros'es favorite dimension, their "Dardis" was full of light. Do note the severity of Dal Machine Daleks and Kaled Travel Vehicle Daleks have entirely operated nearly identical and parallel mission plans and events, but have barely encountered each other. (Cherry Red and Blue TV21 Dal-Daleks look like a copy of the future Daleks unending gung-ho for military activities and military victories and not too interested in the science operations those slow seeming Old Dr Who Daleks had seemed (perhaps they were 10,000+ years old and their slowness from old age is still coolness)
In fairness, its likely that the Dal story is partially true.