As mentioned below, there were a few TInPot wherries made back in the day, and mine is a Timpot too. I used Gleaners (clinker) drawings as the basis for The Newun (indeed, The Newun has overlapping strips of steel in the clinker style - what a lot of welding, but strong as a very strong thing), but changed the length and width to suit the North Walsham and Dilham Canal (at the northern end of The Broads). The dimensions are 50ft x 12'4!" (no rudder yet, as I have the propeller in a short tube), I altered the botton a bit to allow for the now reduced draught of the canal, which I use, by installing a flat bottom. Of course, that would make sailing difficult, if not impossible without leeboards. But then I am a retired canal (narrowboat) boatman in retirement in Norfolk. I fitted an electric inboard engine which works a treat. Why struggle? I have toll-paid for The Broads as a workboat, simply because I rarely use it for pleasure and often load with felled trees as cargo (up to 19t robing drinker but with 2ft freeboard from the the top of the standing uprights [coamings to you non-norfolk folk]). I also use the gaff to lift trees onto/off the boat and out of the water and have employed modern electric winches in place of the back-breaking alternative to raise the mast and gaff. Just call me lazy - or just old. I wish you so well with this project, the end result looks as though it will be absolutely fantastic. I have done as you asked a put a link from The Newun's facebook page to yours.
Thank you for the good wishes! Obviously it makes sense to make alterations to suit what you are using the boat for, and where you are using it, so it sounds like you've designed a boat that's ideal for the current conditions on the canal - I'm not surprised to hear that the depth has reduced over the years, sadly. Lady Garnet will not have an engine, so to speak, but she will have a dinghy which will have an outboard, to give her a push if/when needed. Whether I am going to go for electric or not is something I haven't decided... plenty of time to figure that out though!
Very happy to see this project coming along, albeit slowly, but steadily! Even though I've never set foot on the Broads, nor am I remotely English, I wholeheartedly wish to see Lady Garnet built and launched! I'm very fond of traditional/regional sailing boats. Being from Southern France, I'm very attached to our lovely "pointu" and I can definitely relate to your passion of trading wherries as part of your (adopted) regional heritage. I wish you the best of luck and I will be eagerly awaiting further updates!
Good news! Yeah, it's gotta be full width. Please get on with the dinghy!! It seems silly but it's a proper wooden boat, even if a tiny one, and some people really love this stuff!
Yes, will do! I've been carrying on with work on the dinghy, but have been so busy I haven't had much time to do filming/editing. But I will make it a priority to do a video update on the planking soon.
I may be completely wrong, or out of date on this, but I seem to remember that Farmers have some kind of planning carve out and are able to build BARNS. If I recall correctly, they had a right to build them as required, and did not need planning permission. If this IS the case, perhaps the planning authority, given a choice between a permanent Barn, and a temporary Marquee, might have another . . . . . think. May be worth an enquiry.
The problem is, having already done the pre-application advice, the only way I could re-open the discussion would be to actually submit the application, which is not cheap. Considering how unlikely it would be to succeed at this stage, I think it's better to just make thing work with the boatyard. In some ways the boatyard is a better option anyway, just so long as I don't have to scale down the boat size... Hopefully I will know the answer to that this week!
Well, sorry about the local council causing difficulties (though from my studies of Yes Minister I believe that IS their job 😆😬), but it sounds like the boatyard might be better anyway. Hope the crane is strong enough for your full-sized wherry, and look forward to seeing more videos as you finish your dingy!
This reminds me of when I lived in Warwick and walked along the canal towpath on my way to work in Leamington Spa and back. There is, or was at that time, a boat builder on the canal that built wide beam, steel-hulled dutch barge style boats that were far too large even to get under the nearby bridges and I wondered many time as I walked past, how on earth they moved the boats. Well, there was a hull being built at the time and I saw her put into the water for fitting out whilst a new hull was started on the land. the work progressed and then one morning, the boat was no longer at the yard. She had gone. Utterly intrigued I visited the boat yard that same day and asked how they moved the boat. They told me that a local crane company came and hoisted they completed boats out of the water, over the boat shed and onto a specially made road trailer in their front yard. Once that was completed and the boat lashed down then was driven to the appropriate docks for launching into the sea or river or where ever the customer wanted. Even so I was dubious since the roads in that area were quite narrow and the load was a wide load requiring warning vehicles in front of and behind the truck, but they assured me that this was how they had always done it and it worked well. So, take heart, option one is most certainly possible as the hull I saw exceeded the dimensions you had laid out for Lady Garnet, probably by a considerable margin. [Edit] I've just checked and the boatyard is still there, it's Delta Marine Services and their web site shows a number of the boats that they have built over the last 30 years.
Yes - Leo got chased all over the USA because local NIMBYs didn't want a polythene tent in their field of view. A boatyard does seem the best place to build a .....boat. I look forward to the sailing footage to come.....!
This is nothing to do with Nimbys. As there was no Planning Application there would have been no Notice posted, and so the public would have been unaware of the proposal. It is entirely down to the local authority working within their own Planning Policy and the National Planning Framework. As an architect this is the sort of stuff I have to deal with all the time, and frustrating as it is, these sort of decisions are why we still have some countryside left.
@@MikeAG333 You are correct, it was entirely the decision of the LPA. Personally, I'm a keen supporter of the greenbelt, and I didn't feel that a temporary tent was a problem, because after I finished the boat, the land would have reverted back to exactly as it was before. I even gave them a specific date. Meanwhile we have planning applications being accepted for permanent buildings on greenbelt floodplains with chalk streams (and yes, that's an actual thing that happened a couple years ago in our village, and is still a sore point for many of us). So it was very frustrating to see that complete lack of consistency.
i was trying to save the cost of a crane, maybe it could be launched at an angle, putting bouyancy bags under one side of the hull only, 11 ft beam afloat, but at 44 degrees tilt, the coaming may be underwater, it would need to be checked with a scale model, probably easier to use a crane if cash is no problem
I think the fear with the council is that a tent erected for any length of time on agricultural land could legally be argued as a barn, once established as a barn it could then be converted to living accommodation . Even if they genuinely believed that the farmer in question would never pull such a stunt it would open up a precedence for less scrupulous land owners to develop green belt land. However it would seem that our charming new government is going to scrap the green belt rule so I would not be too hasty in giving up on the idea just yet. My other thought is that you might purchase a heavy duty lorry chassis place four large jacks close to the corners place it in situ , build a temporary scaffold off the chassis as a work platform and a support for your temporary roof. jack the chassis level and the chassis should provide a stable rigid level area to construct LG this might work at either location. and might circumnavigate your council rules. Thinking about it one of those very large heavy duty four wheel tow bar lorry trailers might do the trick. Of course there are certain rules covering the storage of large road transport rigs which would need to be checked but trailers are a normal part of agricultural practice. and could be labeled as a mobile sheep shearing rig/lambing shed that has been temporarily repurposed. Of course there is another option if I dare mention, move to the broads and build LG here.
Thanks for all this David. That's an interesting point you bring up, that they might have been worried about setting a precedent. I did laugh (in a pained way) at all the talk about how my little temporary tent was "harmful" to the greenbelt, knowing that it's likely that in, say, five years, that entire field will have been sold and turned into a housing development, probably regardless of which government is in power. But it's all fine, if the mobile crane company have a look at the boatyard and confirm that they can do the lift into the river from there, then I can go ahead and build Lady Garnet full size. And yes, the Broads are tempting, I love it there, but... my job is on the Thames, and also I'm not sure it would have been any easier to find a place for the build in Norfolk.
Thank you! I forgot to mention it in the video, but the exit road at the boatyard is only 12 feet wide, so there would be no way to get Lady Garnet out by road either! But I'm pretty sure the mobile crane idea will work, hopefully will set up the meeting with them next week.
I prepare to make restoration of 19 century wooden manor house for the client and have similar problem. Temporary means 180 days for tent shead. And I nead it for 2-3 years. U do not make boat shorter. Buld it nire the gate wher can be load for boat truck and splash it in diferent place.
@@buildingladygarnet I supose is same in all Europe, but I understud this. U can be honest, I can be honest, but for custom worker all nead to be equal and lot of people are no honest. Longer then half of year is dificult for clerks to veryfy. Lot of people will put trailers or other „temporary” shead or cabins to live in it pass the permit. In Poland we have problem with this in for example valuable for tourism and recreation places. Is one of reason I will have problem with thos 100m2 tent, is on popular kayak river.
Thanks, although I don't think I need any elm at the moment, and I haven't anywhere to store it, which is the main problem! Once I build the tent for Lady Garnet I will be more on the lookout for timber.
I hate how stupid "commissions" get to tell people what they can and cannot do with their own damn land. It's amazing that as a society we tolerate letting a few random people control our lives in such detail when it harms no one else.
This was the thing that annoyed me the most. We were told that if the owner wanted to build a permanent farm building, the same size as my tent, in the exact same place, it would likely have been approved! Now, how does that work... The trouble with not asking is that if any neighbour complains and the site gets investigated, you're in major trouble. Fortunately, the boatyard is probably a better location anyway, so it's all good.
sorry but pushing a wherry against an ebbing tide is a travesty they never had the luxury of an engine back in the day why cant they be used properly my wife and i crewed on albion 25 years ago it was an issue i felt then i used to encourage the use of the quants and the visitors in general loved it all mostly having a go please do not fall into this trap if you ever complete your build i wish you all the luck we did at one point look into raising the steel wherry Uranus which lies in Bargate broad it had been attempted some years ago i felt it would make an interesting project as she would have been the oldest wherry afloat but time has passed, but the last time i saw her she still looks sound in the hull being iron they used to call them tin pots sailed terribly cold in winter roasting in summer but still part of the history of the broads.
Hello John, you are certainly not alone in this view! I am a quanting enthusiast, and there are skippers for Albion who are very keen to keep using the quants, I think in this case it was decided that as Yarmouth can be quite deep, the quants would not be very effective. I think the proper way would have been to use chains, but those are definitely not very popular! I have never gotten the chance to use chains. I certainly intend to use wind, tide and quants as much as possible on Lady Garnet as I like to be traditional. That's interesting about Uranus, perhaps someday she will be raised. I am strictly a wooden boatbuilder though so it will have to be someone else! :)
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Great news! I can’t wait to see all those trees being repurposed. Let the wood chips fly!
As mentioned below, there were a few TInPot wherries made back in the day, and mine is a Timpot too. I used Gleaners (clinker) drawings as the basis for The Newun (indeed, The Newun has overlapping strips of steel in the clinker style - what a lot of welding, but strong as a very strong thing), but changed the length and width to suit the North Walsham and Dilham Canal (at the northern end of The Broads). The dimensions are 50ft x 12'4!" (no rudder yet, as I have the propeller in a short tube), I altered the botton a bit to allow for the now reduced draught of the canal, which I use, by installing a flat bottom. Of course, that would make sailing difficult, if not impossible without leeboards. But then I am a retired canal (narrowboat) boatman in retirement in Norfolk. I fitted an electric inboard engine which works a treat. Why struggle? I have toll-paid for The Broads as a workboat, simply because I rarely use it for pleasure and often load with felled trees as cargo (up to 19t robing drinker but with 2ft freeboard from the the top of the standing uprights [coamings to you non-norfolk folk]). I also use the gaff to lift trees onto/off the boat and out of the water and have employed modern electric winches in place of the back-breaking alternative to raise the mast and gaff. Just call me lazy - or just old. I wish you so well with this project, the end result looks as though it will be absolutely fantastic. I have done as you asked a put a link from The Newun's facebook page to yours.
Thank you for the good wishes! Obviously it makes sense to make alterations to suit what you are using the boat for, and where you are using it, so it sounds like you've designed a boat that's ideal for the current conditions on the canal - I'm not surprised to hear that the depth has reduced over the years, sadly. Lady Garnet will not have an engine, so to speak, but she will have a dinghy which will have an outboard, to give her a push if/when needed. Whether I am going to go for electric or not is something I haven't decided... plenty of time to figure that out though!
Very happy to see this project coming along, albeit slowly, but steadily! Even though I've never set foot on the Broads, nor am I remotely English, I wholeheartedly wish to see Lady Garnet built and launched! I'm very fond of traditional/regional sailing boats. Being from Southern France, I'm very attached to our lovely "pointu" and I can definitely relate to your passion of trading wherries as part of your (adopted) regional heritage. I wish you the best of luck and I will be eagerly awaiting further updates!
Thank you! I'm getting impatient to actually start some proper work, but you know how it is, the bigger the project, the longer the prep work takes!
An hour of video from the Albion trip would be fine by me 😊. Looking forward to the coming years of coverage.
Thank you Maurice! :)
Good news! Yeah, it's gotta be full width.
Please get on with the dinghy!! It seems silly but it's a proper wooden boat, even if a tiny one, and some people really love this stuff!
Yes, will do! I've been carrying on with work on the dinghy, but have been so busy I haven't had much time to do filming/editing. But I will make it a priority to do a video update on the planking soon.
I may be completely wrong, or out of date on this, but I seem to remember that Farmers have some kind of planning carve out and are able to build BARNS. If I recall correctly, they had a right to build them as required, and did not need planning permission.
If this IS the case, perhaps the planning authority, given a choice between a permanent Barn, and a temporary Marquee, might have another . . . . . think.
May be worth an enquiry.
The problem is, having already done the pre-application advice, the only way I could re-open the discussion would be to actually submit the application, which is not cheap. Considering how unlikely it would be to succeed at this stage, I think it's better to just make thing work with the boatyard. In some ways the boatyard is a better option anyway, just so long as I don't have to scale down the boat size... Hopefully I will know the answer to that this week!
Well, sorry about the local council causing difficulties (though from my studies of Yes Minister I believe that IS their job 😆😬), but it sounds like the boatyard might be better anyway. Hope the crane is strong enough for your full-sized wherry, and look forward to seeing more videos as you finish your dingy!
Haha, Yes Minister is a fabulous show, and I'm inclined to think it's very accurate! I will try to do a video update on the dinghy soon.
This reminds me of when I lived in Warwick and walked along the canal towpath on my way to work in Leamington Spa and back. There is, or was at that time, a boat builder on the canal that built wide beam, steel-hulled dutch barge style boats that were far too large even to get under the nearby bridges and I wondered many time as I walked past, how on earth they moved the boats.
Well, there was a hull being built at the time and I saw her put into the water for fitting out whilst a new hull was started on the land. the work progressed and then one morning, the boat was no longer at the yard. She had gone. Utterly intrigued I visited the boat yard that same day and asked how they moved the boat.
They told me that a local crane company came and hoisted they completed boats out of the water, over the boat shed and onto a specially made road trailer in their front yard. Once that was completed and the boat lashed down then was driven to the appropriate docks for launching into the sea or river or where ever the customer wanted.
Even so I was dubious since the roads in that area were quite narrow and the load was a wide load requiring warning vehicles in front of and behind the truck, but they assured me that this was how they had always done it and it worked well.
So, take heart, option one is most certainly possible as the hull I saw exceeded the dimensions you had laid out for Lady Garnet, probably by a considerable margin.
[Edit] I've just checked and the boatyard is still there, it's Delta Marine Services and their web site shows a number of the boats that they have built over the last 30 years.
Thank you for this, really good to hear that! I am hoping to have a meeting with the crane company next week and will hopefully have an update soon.
Yes - Leo got chased all over the USA because local NIMBYs didn't want a polythene tent in their field of view. A boatyard does seem the best place to build a .....boat. I look forward to the sailing footage to come.....!
Quite true. My biggest concern with the original location was the neighbours across the street, so yes, I think the boatyard is a better place.
This is nothing to do with Nimbys. As there was no Planning Application there would have been no Notice posted, and so the public would have been unaware of the proposal. It is entirely down to the local authority working within their own Planning Policy and the National Planning Framework. As an architect this is the sort of stuff I have to deal with all the time, and frustrating as it is, these sort of decisions are why we still have some countryside left.
@@MikeAG333 You are correct, it was entirely the decision of the LPA. Personally, I'm a keen supporter of the greenbelt, and I didn't feel that a temporary tent was a problem, because after I finished the boat, the land would have reverted back to exactly as it was before. I even gave them a specific date. Meanwhile we have planning applications being accepted for permanent buildings on greenbelt floodplains with chalk streams (and yes, that's an actual thing that happened a couple years ago in our village, and is still a sore point for many of us). So it was very frustrating to see that complete lack of consistency.
He had to move from private property to a boatyard after building for a few years.
Great update! I look forward to the build starting. I hope you are able to stick to your original dimensions for Lady Garnet.
Thanks Jake! Hopefully I will be able to confirm the dimensions next week.
Cheers!
i was trying to save the cost of a crane, maybe it could be launched at an angle, putting bouyancy bags under one side of the hull only, 11 ft beam afloat, but at 44 degrees tilt, the coaming may be underwater, it would need to be checked with a scale model, probably easier to use a crane if cash is no problem
Thanks Peter. That is one of my concerns with it, that tilting it to that extent would put the coaming underwater. I will look into it further though!
I think the fear with the council is that a tent erected for any length of time on agricultural land could legally be argued as a barn, once established as a barn it could then be converted to living accommodation . Even if they genuinely believed that the farmer in question would never pull such a stunt it would open up a precedence for less scrupulous land owners to develop green belt land. However it would seem that our charming new government is going to scrap the green belt rule so I would not be too hasty in giving up on the idea just yet. My other thought is that you might purchase a heavy duty lorry chassis place four large jacks close to the corners place it in situ , build a temporary scaffold off the chassis as a work platform and a support for your temporary roof. jack the chassis level and the chassis should provide a stable rigid level area to construct LG this might work at either location. and might circumnavigate your council rules. Thinking about it one of those very large heavy duty four wheel tow bar lorry trailers might do the trick. Of course there are certain rules covering the storage of large road transport rigs which would need to be checked but trailers are a normal part of agricultural practice. and could be labeled as a mobile sheep shearing rig/lambing shed that has been temporarily repurposed. Of course there is another option if I dare mention, move to the broads and build LG here.
Thanks for all this David. That's an interesting point you bring up, that they might have been worried about setting a precedent. I did laugh (in a pained way) at all the talk about how my little temporary tent was "harmful" to the greenbelt, knowing that it's likely that in, say, five years, that entire field will have been sold and turned into a housing development, probably regardless of which government is in power. But it's all fine, if the mobile crane company have a look at the boatyard and confirm that they can do the lift into the river from there, then I can go ahead and build Lady Garnet full size. And yes, the Broads are tempting, I love it there, but... my job is on the Thames, and also I'm not sure it would have been any easier to find a place for the build in Norfolk.
I'm looking forward to see Lady Garnet being built. God speed! Would it be an option to put her on a trailer and get her to a bigger hoist bay?
Thank you! I forgot to mention it in the video, but the exit road at the boatyard is only 12 feet wide, so there would be no way to get Lady Garnet out by road either! But I'm pretty sure the mobile crane idea will work, hopefully will set up the meeting with them next week.
I prepare to make restoration of 19 century wooden manor house for the client and have similar problem. Temporary means 180 days for tent shead. And I nead it for 2-3 years.
U do not make boat shorter. Buld it nire the gate wher can be load for boat truck and splash it in diferent place.
Yes, it's an odd thing that anything that's up longer than 180 days is legally regarded as "permanent."
@@buildingladygarnet I supose is same in all Europe, but I understud this. U can be honest, I can be honest, but for custom worker all nead to be equal and lot of people are no honest. Longer then half of year is dificult for clerks to veryfy. Lot of people will put trailers or other „temporary” shead or cabins to live in it pass the permit. In Poland we have problem with this in for example valuable for tourism and recreation places. Is one of reason I will have problem with thos 100m2 tent, is on popular kayak river.
Very true. It's the people that try to cheat the rules that make it worse for people like us.
Are you sure you want to begin a multi-year project in England?
Yes, of course!
We are felling some standing dead elm trees soon will they be of use to you.
Thanks, although I don't think I need any elm at the moment, and I haven't anywhere to store it, which is the main problem! Once I build the tent for Lady Garnet I will be more on the lookout for timber.
@@buildingladygarnet just to let you know my woodyard is riverside at bottom of docket Eddy Lane shepperton.
@@surreyarborist Thanks! That's not far from me.
CALL LEO.....
I haven't got his phone number! :)
I hate how stupid "commissions" get to tell people what they can and cannot do with their own damn land. It's amazing that as a society we tolerate letting a few random people control our lives in such detail when it harms no one else.
Temporary farm building I’m surprised maybe you shouldn’t have asked!😂
This was the thing that annoyed me the most. We were told that if the owner wanted to build a permanent farm building, the same size as my tent, in the exact same place, it would likely have been approved! Now, how does that work... The trouble with not asking is that if any neighbour complains and the site gets investigated, you're in major trouble. Fortunately, the boatyard is probably a better location anyway, so it's all good.
sorry but pushing a wherry against an ebbing tide is a travesty they never had the luxury of an engine back in the day why cant they be used properly my wife and i crewed on albion 25 years ago it was an issue i felt then i used to encourage the use of the quants and the visitors in general loved it all mostly having a go please do not fall into this trap if you ever complete your build i wish you all the luck we did at one point look into raising the steel wherry Uranus which lies in Bargate broad it had been attempted some years ago i felt it would make an interesting project as she would have been the oldest wherry afloat but time has passed, but the last time i saw her she still looks sound in the hull being iron they used to call them tin pots sailed terribly cold in winter roasting in summer but still part of the history of the broads.
Hello John, you are certainly not alone in this view! I am a quanting enthusiast, and there are skippers for Albion who are very keen to keep using the quants, I think in this case it was decided that as Yarmouth can be quite deep, the quants would not be very effective. I think the proper way would have been to use chains, but those are definitely not very popular! I have never gotten the chance to use chains. I certainly intend to use wind, tide and quants as much as possible on Lady Garnet as I like to be traditional. That's interesting about Uranus, perhaps someday she will be raised. I am strictly a wooden boatbuilder though so it will have to be someone else! :)
Not heard of Uranus of Bargate before. Is she in the bay with the other wherries?