75. AA: Who it Helps, Who it Hurts, and Who it Kills... with Dr. Edward Wilson
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- Опубликовано: 16 июл 2024
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The Advocates are joined by Dr. Edward Wilson of Your Empowing Solutions in Calabasas, CA! We discuss the problematic Alcoholics Anonymous and Dr. Wilson's book "AA: Who it Helps, Who it Hurts, and Who it Kills... and Why." It's dripping with REBT!
You can contact Dr. Wilson and find his book at www.non12step.com
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Toxic people in AA. The word sponsor isn't in the book. Too many big egos.
And i believe that once you have gotten the message, you don't need to keep going to meetings. I don't but those old timers who kept coming to meetings to give back, helped me the most. Now I want to go back and help those who struggle.
exactly 💯
Me too ✋️
Or you can send the best message of all by reincorporating into the world and not chain yourself to AA meetings anymore. "Spreading the message" doesn't get or keep people sober, THEY do (just like YOU did). AA's program has this massive ego about itself (or perhaps just Bill Wilson did). Much of the Big Book includes hysterical passages about the nature of alcoholics and alcoholism that has little to do with reality (To Wives, We Agnostics, etc.) and proposes a "spiritual" cure for a "spiritual" disease that's ultimately caused by "selfishness" and "ego". If you kept coming around, you've probably already noticed that most people coming to the meetings have already cycled out. Don't worry, many of them are likely doing fine without the message. 😂
AA has helped keep me sober since 9/12/88 plus 3 other family members....BUT, it's not the only show in town. If you can find another route by all means go for it.
I see on hand week after week , the alcoholic transform their ways with help of good members who are working a program , I see daughters get their mother and father back , I see mother's and father's get there sons and daughters back , through the 12 steps and AA I have got sober , clean and gamble free 6 years and from the depths of homeless at 24 , now getting married next week and ready to be there for my future children
Okay, what's the other route? There is no other route. AA is the only KNOWN treatment for alcoholism on the planet. And it's free. Steps on a lot of recovery benifacters toes. doesn't it? AA is chalk full of participants that will do anything to not have to do any work on themselves. And then blame everybody else . They don't call it a "disease of denial" for nothing. Easy pickings, for the recovery wolves. Who's killing who for money?
@@dyingfromthelying Read the Big Book.....it's all there.
@@dyingfromthelyingso you've never heard of SMART Recover, the Sinclair Method, the Freedom Model ect?
@@citrix123And that's how the program works... IF ONE WORKS IT!!!
AA served its purpose at the time it was founded, but it has since become outdated, because of its refusal to evolve. Thank God there are many other programs and treatments now, especially the science based ones.
AA served its purpose... The science-based ones? Which ones are those. I haven't heard of them. Please enlighten me. Sounds very interesting. Can you tell me a little more about what you mean?
There are many, many different programs, and I have tried them all, and they didn't work. I finally stopped screwing around and became a member of AA, and for the first time in 43 years, I have been sober 2 years. Nowadays, I go with what gets results, and AA is the only thing that has worked.
I agree AA needs to evolve, primarily updating our antique literature.
I have been in A.A. in the UK for 23 years and I must say that the A.A. being described in this video is entirely different to the A.A. that I’m familiar with.
23 years seems enough time to leave the nest. I felt the same way until my decision to leave and never return no matter what. Now I see AA as a cult with very limited effect, while producing automatons of boring people. I’ve been to meetings all around the world and they all seem the same on one spectrum or another as described in the podcast/video.
Me too!
Lucky you! I have been around longer and the BS is there.
The old "Real Scotsman" argument. "That's not REAL AA" or "that's not the AA that I ever experienced". 🙄
@@zyxwut321 I think you have misunderstood the "no true scotsman" logical fallacy, or you have misconstruedwhat I have written as being the "no true scotsman" fallacy. The fallacy is expressed as : "All X are Y" ... "But here's an X and it isn't Y" ... "Ah, but all real X are Y". Therefore the fallacy is perpetuated by the re-statement of the original assertion as a new assertion which is itself asserted to be identical to the original - but it isn't (hence the fallacy).
Videos like this are nearly bringing me to tears… I’ve been brainwashed by AA for the past 3 years into thinking I’d be doomed to failure without it and it’s helping me so much to learn that theres other hope out there
I pity you...best of luck
I wish the church hadn’t given up on alcoholism. It’s just another sin and shouldn’t be the focus and definition of everyone that struggles with it.
Ridiculous. I bet you tried other thing’s before AA! AA didn’t drag you in, the door swings both ways and if it’s not for you that’s fine. Good luck with your sobriety journey
@dr.coomer9750 Yes, AA does preach that. The "helpless" and the "hopeless", and those who have not yet realized their power (AA teaches their attendees and members that they are "powerless", lost causes) are the ones who stay and are "benefited" by the AA program.
@@cg9616the problem is the cult of AA teaches it's the only way which damages those that it's not for. The culture and government have accepted the disease model and thus AA was seen as the only way for soo long. It's lies have done damage. Check out the US of AA by Joe Miller.
AA has helped me and about a few hundred people I know right here in Butte MT 22 yrs clean and sober
I tried sharing REBT skills with AAers to help newcomers AND oldtimers handle their self-defeating emotions, which they often say IS the disease trying to get me to drink. They say I'm "in denial" , sick, and a "VERY ANGRY PERSON". Very few even talk to me at meetings anymore. So I don't go! When I do go it's for the reason Dr. Edelstein says: To remind myself where I came from...
James, If you have not already, look into smartrecovery.org. Michael,
www.TheREBT.Life
Definitely got to watch out for the oldtimers! 😂
@@winrosoh definitely, they've stayed sober a long time by luck aye
@@evansnick81Or for some of them, by bitterness and spite. LOL
You give up old people, places, and things that were a part of your using lifestyle. You are absolutely encouraged to reconnect to family and friends through making sincere amends that free you from oppressive guilt. And encouraged to lovingly accept it if someone will not receive your gesture. Absolutely encouraged to get whatever outside help you may need. Especially when it comes to spirituality, members are encouraged connect with others that might help them grow spiritually, and this often means attending church but also includes anything that works. Yoga, Buddhism, volunteering, being of service to your wider community. Of course there are lousy groups and lousy sponsors and it's unfortunate when a member experiences only one group or one sponsor and writes off the entire program based upon these experiences.
Yeah, but that Big Book and the confusing, contradictory nature and tone of the "literature" and the emphasis on "spiritualism" to deal with what's essentially a medical and psychological problem in addiction in the 21st Century are all legitimate and fundamental questions. It's not just the "bad apple" groups and individuals that make people wary of 12 Step, it's the program itself. It's just like how there might be plenty of nice people who are helpful, calm, kind, curious and pleasant who attend a fundamentalist church, it doesn't mean what they believe in and attribute their positive qualities to is true and correct. Twelve step movements often rely heavily on anecdotal testimonies ("AA saved my life and so many others. I/We couldn't have done it without it") instead of empirical studies on its efficacy.
I am happy to have found this AA only made my active alcoholism to substantially get worse. I am a very creative intelligent person and I am also an empathetic human being that absorbs other peoples problems and responsibilities. Going to find this book and read it thanks for the information.
try sos, it's not 12 step, not religious (they only ask that you keep religion and politics OUT of their meetings but they have no motivation whatsoever to bring those up in any way is all, the leaders admit they DO have many religious people in the program but they don't want to put that into the treatment) There are other secular, non-religious, non-12 step programs out there....sos even offers zoom meetings. usually they are in large cities....the nearest ones to me are 2hrs away so the zoom thing is really good
so u are great now ur not a acaholic any more great for u
you have my sympathy..AA only works if you really WANT to stop
Let us know how you get on 😂
Are you still alive, and found another way that millions of chronic alcoholics who are sober did not find
I had to quit AA to get sober. When I finally took my power back from that cult any desire for alcohol vanished.
It might be of particular interest to everyone involved in making this to know that while in AA Bill w was tripping pretty heavy on some mushrooms on a fairly consistent basis while he was coming up with the whole idea hey hey, founding it, and leading / participating in it himself. You can fact check that you'll see I'm right. I enjoyed your show. Just thought maybe one of you might be interested.
I’m a highly idiosyncratic, creative, relentless thinker and I was just deciding to stop AA because I had figured this out on my own. What a f ing nightmare. Thanks for doing this interview and confirming my interpretation of the program.
You don't wait to feel better then practice the steps, you practice spiritual principles to feel and think better. It's all about developing a relationship with Our Creator
If you are indeed seeking the one and only *actual* God and creator, fair. But you're not going to find Him by creating a god of your own understanding. That's what the program gets wrong. Flat out.
Some of us just want to get sober. Pushing people to believe on something isn’t fair. I however have enjoyed the fellowship. That’s it!
So it is religion after all
@@cierrarachael9949God’s a figment of your imagination, so you ought to be able to make her out to be anything you want.
Introduce me to your imaginary friend.
I Attended AA for a while but " hit a brick wall" and felt I was getting dragged down with other members problems, I actually started looking for similar problems I did not have to "fit in". It just made me miserable at the end up. My brain chemistry has improved and I no longer crave alcohol and last month I had a drink and did not get any benefits from it, I didn't end up drunk. My plan is to remain abstinent cuz booze doesn't serve me now. I am a person that cannot conform, I get agitated. I am an aspergers soul maybe this is why I cannot give myself to the program. I microdose with magic mushrooms now and they have helped me very much. According to AA literature I'm going to go insane. I'm healthier and happier now I have left.
@@johnkenny694 kratom also helped me get off methadone 😁there is loads of stuff that can help us without the need for doctors.
similar experience and I also micro dose
it’s all self medication FROM TRAUMA
@@carrieangel275Kratom is addictive asf and extremely expensive. I spent thousands of dollars on that crap before I quit. Call it what it is....legal opium tea.
@@prismwellness933 good luck...u need it....
How's it going now then😂
I was forced to attend AA meetings after a DUI charge back in 1999 by a judge. It seemed pointless, because the first step is admitting to YOURSELF that you have a problem, not some judge telling you that you have a problem. I of course quickly realized that I could sign/initial my attendance cards as it’s an “anonymous” meeting and initials are easy to forge. I quit drinking on my own years later without any outside assistance or “praying” to any perceived or personal spiritual whatever!🙄 The only thing I got out of AA meetings was how to chain smoke and drink black coffee. I no longer smoke, but still drink black coffee occasionally.😐
Judges and the courts have no business ordering people to AA.
@@michaelmick6167which is ironic that the courts are involved in a supposedly 'anonymous' problem.
If you weren't stupid and irresponsible, you wouldn't have had to go to AA.
You're point about it being pointless to go to AA... It looks like things haven't changed... you're still not very bright.
You were sentenced to attend AA because it was punishment.
@@michaelmick6167no they don't, your spot on
Well, if you're still got a big book, read "more about alcoholism"(page 30) and that'll explain why you could quit without going to AA big fella! Congrats!
It took me five trys over five years for AA to begin working for me. At one point I had a stack of 24hr and 30day chips. Finally, I made the decision that alcohol had ruined me and I was "sick and tired of being sick and tired". At FIVE YEARS IN, I made the decision to work the program word for word. That was 17yrs ago now and I have not had one sip of alcohol. That's it. Period. No more. I just did what Bill W and Dr. Bob wrote. Nothing more, nothing less. A woman early in my sobriety gave me a framed, knitted sign that simply stated "YAGOTTAWANNA". I STILL have it. For me, AA saved my life, in spite of me. That's it. That's all I did.
AA and the 12 Steps suggested as a program of recovery have allowed me to have a better life for 40 years since 10-20-83. That said, I favor whatever works. My brother has stayed sober for nearly 45 years and found sobriety through Christianity.
These guys would have killed you if you met them and relied on their 'expertise' I've no doubt they may of helped some people, but I'd be dead if I metbthem
When they told me I wasn't sober because I was taking Suboxone, I was so new in the process that I stopped taking it and went right back to using. How did that benefit me? Their stringent "you can't use medication to help you" beliefs are so dangerous. Truth of the matter is, if I could take two Vicodin a day like I was taking 2 Suboxone a day, I wouldn't need treatment. To tell anyone they're not sober even though they are getting their life together is disgustingly irresponsible. I'm still pissed about that. I won't go back. I do enjoy Smart Recovery.
A family member of mine tried to guilt trip me into getting off subs he also believes I'm a dead man walking without AA ..luckily I had a doctor who doesn't even prescribe my subs tell me to stay on them..truth is they saved my life. I'll get off them when I feel like it. Good for you on not falling victim to it.
I take two or three Percocets today for chronic pain. An AA group ought not to even have an opinion on prescription drugs. It's not their job. ( It used to be in the rulebook) I'm sober 27 years now thanks to my higher power and AA. Three meetings in the last 20 years, I guess I should go back. I can help.
@@tylerpool5464 yeah, this one guy who robbed a pharmacy in an attempt to get pills three years after I started subs told me I wasn’t sober. Last I heard from him he was going into a two test rehab program. You only get so many years on this planet. Spending so many in rehab because you refuse to take subs is stupid, unless they’re addicts to rehab. I mean, in AA/NA all you have to do is die sober and you’re a raging success. That’s such a low standard.
@@harydogers8929 you can help people, but if you do it there you’re going to be bound to certain guidelines you might not like. I remember them having these “Big Book” studies and they would all sit around reading from it and some guys had these Big Book study guides with definitions of certain words and they are literally treating it like it’s divine Scripture. It’s not. So many of its recommendations are outdated and ineffective.
Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol by Ellis is incredible. (Also works if substituting a desire to quit alcohol for a desire to quit whatever.)
How's it working for you then😮
You still alive, how's life going
It took nearly three minutes for Wilson to speak an untruth. "The only thing that works is AA" he says. That's utterly untrue, AA does not have that attitude and does not mention that attitude throughout it's entire literature. Infact AA emphatically supports the idea for people to seek any help they see fit. There are of course members who state openly that they "have tried everything and AA was the only thing that worked". There are many of them. If they are not drinking and their lives are in order and they're happy who am I to disagree with them. It gets worse. Nowhere is it in print or verbal in AA that anyone has to give up anything, (including alcohol), for any reason or conform to anything, like believing in a God. It's even writen down in the literature that "the ONLY requirement for membership is the DESIRE to stop drinking". What nonsense, AA has never killed anyone. However it is the experience and hense the view of millions of it's members globally that the programme has saved millions of lives. I'll leave my critique of Wilson here as he goes on in much the same vein and quite frankly demeans himself intellectually, clinically and ethically in doing so.
Amen AA even states that I can go to places where alcohol is served. We just do not drink.
i went to Woodstock99 and did not have to drink. I've been to many concerts and did not drink.
12 Step occult programming can not save anyone.
AA seems to help those most who need a lot of structure. Many of those coming in come from abusive families, have mental illness, have a lifetime of chaos and dysfunction even BEFORE you factor in their addiction issues. The Big Book, 12 Steps, sponsors and literature can give folks who've never had direction a path forward. It also probably works best for those who are more religiously oriented despite what's said about it being a "spiritual, not religious" program. Though there are people who claim agnosticism and even atheism who still participate in the program, I've noticed most old-timers I saw over the course of years seemed to claim a recognizably Judeo-Christian vision of their "Higher Power".
yes, but we do have many who hate God and religion.
That is probably true. If one is seeking spiritual growth, it can often be found within religious communities. That of course is not the only place to look, but it is a logical one. At the time AA was founded, organized religion in this country consisted almost entirely of Christians and Jews, so one could expect that this was reflected in people's experiences. I know of one very prominent agnostic AA member who chose not to attend atheist and agnostic centered meetings because he found that they talked about God more than other meetings.
Folks remember: the title of a book is created by the marketing department - the title was created to create interest its entirely a figment of speech-
- the results someone achieves or does not achieve an AA is entirely based on an individual's situation - of course not based on a psychologist limited experience -
Sober for 11 years, went to AA for 20 years - the AA program is meant to be suggestive only
Good point. The author the the aa big book would never use sales tactics or flowery language and exaggerations to convince ppl his new group is the cool new thing in town. Oh wait.
AA programmes you...
To think and say as they do...I question things and they dont like that.Im so grateful im not a robot 😅😊
There exists a certain group of people including treatment professionals who simply hate AA. It seems to include these gentlemen. Most people do not know that AA also has a set of traditions that most AA members choose to follow, and one of them is that AA has no opinion on outside issues, and that includes people or groups who have a negative view of AA. So AA as a group will have nothing to say about this group or these particular people. However, as a longtime AA member who has been sober most of my life as a result, I definitely have some views, and among them is that what these people are saying is simply not true.
There is a nearly infinite variety of human behaviors and experiences, so no doubt one can find examples of everything these men have to say about AA. But generally what they are saying is simply wrong. For one thing, AA does not tell people that they cannot associate with anyone outside the group. It does not tell people that they cannot have relationships with other people. It does not tell people that if they leave the group they will die. Each of these examples reflects things said or experiences people have had taken out of context.
When you first get sober, it often is necessary to avoid your friends and sometimes even family members, as these are frequently the people you previously got drunk with. Family situations differ greatly of course, but most alcoholics tend to congregate with other people who drink excessively. What one tends to find is that you had little in common with the people you used to drink with, other than the fact that you used to drink with them. These people are also ones who encourage you to drink. I can say through personal experience that the people who first notice that you have stopped drinking and want to know all the details are the people who are still drinking to excess. Someone they know getting sober is a threat to them. Obviously situations are different when talking about family members, but if family gatherings, particularly around celebrations and holidays usually consist of people getting drunk together, it is common sense that those are probably not good places to be.
Those who study religions and/or groups tend to avoid the word “cult,” as it does not mean anything. It can typically be defined as “group I do not like.” Comparing AA to the Manson family is far beyond insulting to the point of being simply ridiculous. The speakers avoid mentioning several things that the book Alcoholics Anonymous specifically and explicitly says, among them that AA does not have a monopoly on truth, that if someone can find a way to drink non-abusively that our hats are off to them, and that AA leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern. There are no rules for AA. You cannot be kicked out. Nobody can force anyone else to practice the steps or follow suggestions. Of course, someone will reply by mentioning the power of peer pressure. But what would one expect? If a group of people find something that works and has seen severely bad consequences as a result of doing otherwise, would they suggest doing that?
Abstaining from alcohol is not like going on a diet. True, one may start to lose weight and pick up a few extra pounds over Thanksgiving, and they may well be healthier than they were before they started, but most will not ditch their diet entirely and proceed to gain back all the weight they lost and more. For those who would, there is another fellowship that addresses that. But for alcoholics, drinking after a long period of sobriety typically leads to disaster. If one chooses to try to drink less rather than abstain from alcohol entirely, that is an option, but that is not what AA does. We have found that it does not work for us. And why would you want to? If there is something that you do that has led to disaster in the past, why would you want to do it just a little bit and see if that works? Would it not be better not to do it at all?
Finally, let me address the matter of 13th stepping. Yes, it happens. The term comes from the fact that of the steps, the 12th step is the one that actually suggests reaching out to others, specifically trying to assist them to get sober. So the term 13th-stepping came about to refer to abusing that practice, mostly to hit on newcomers. As noted, the only authority AA really has is the approval or disapproval of others in the group. To put it mildly, 13th-stepping is strongly frowned upon. In this video the participants suggest that AA tells people that they cannot get into relationships. That of course is not true. People inevitably do get into relationships. However, the general advice is that you do not do so for the first year. There are several reasons for that. For newcomers, it is a bad idea to get into an emotionally charged situation early in recovery. For people approaching newcomers, they are not emotionally stable people and thus not people you want to start a relationship with. But there is also the very clear idea that you should not take advantage of others and hurt their chances of recovery. Does it happen? Sure. Is it the norm? No. Is it encouraged? Absolutely not.
It seems that the only research the speakers rely on is their own. One can find another video by two researchers from Stanford University who attempted to do as thorough an investigation of AA as possible, looking at all the studies conducted for decades. What they found was that AA has a success rate of somewhere between twenty and sixty percent. One of the presenters noted that this kind of success rate with any other medical problem would be considered extraordinary. They also note that for people who do not maintain sobriety, AA still has a positive effect. They tend to drink less and have fewer negative consequences.
I do not claim to be unbiased. AA has kept me sober for most of my life and greatly improved it. I am much happier and healthier than I would be otherwise, and have grown spiritually to a great degree. To the commentator who said that AA is bad theology, I can just note that his is a minority opinion. Far more religious leaders of many religions and denominations would disagree. Contrary to what the speaker suggested, I have not found that the many AA members I have met are all stupid people who never develop emotionally. Actually, I have met many who are brilliant and talented, and know of no cases where AA has propelled anyone to suicide. It is said that your best thinking got you here, but that is because alcoholics will go to astonishing lengths to avoid having to stop drinking, and very smart people can come up with lots of creative reasons why they do not have to. Accepting the simple fact that you have to stop doing what you are doing and what you like to do can be terribly difficult.
In conclusion, I can only reiterate. If someone finds something else that works for them, good for them. If someone can find some way to drink non-abusively and chooses to do so, good for them. I have no desire to try it. If I seem defensive, I am. I am protective of that which has saved and dramatically improved my life and those of many people I know
Thank you sir , well said !AA has kept me sober for 45 years and has given me a happy and healthy life,not to mention the true friendships that I have found in this fellowship.
Amen AA has kept me sober almost 50 years.
Do you feel better after writing this treatise?
@@38NDY I hope I have been able to make a useful contribution to the subject. From the reactions to my post, it would seem that some people think that I did. That makes me feel good.
@@38NDY do you feel.... Wow! Someone's been using his thesauruses. 🤣
They call people not in AA Normies to separate from others not in program they call it a program
God , I hate that term normie. We all have issues and problems cause we are human. I don’t feel different than any other human that way
wtf
The also call those not in "earthlings" again this is non conference literature jargon used by very odd people. After 11 years I find the normies and earthlings lingo to be absolutely bizarre...makes members seem to be special which they are typically trying to stop that egoism. Again non meeting lingo " heard at a meeting ".
Just wondering if anyone has done a study on the number of marriages that are destroyed by AA? Including an analysis on the men who are married and attend AA and develop Emotional Affairs with some of the women of AA. I am not talking about the 13th step. These are married men and single women who have been in AA 7 to 10 years, and about the same age?
Why would they, it's not anyone's business, or did AA kill yours, and what's you view on woman in AA who do the same thing
My husband is now going to AA meetings. He prefers to go alone, which makes me feel like he is pushing me away. Marriage vows, two come as one gone down the drain. Preferring to becoming one with the people in AA.
@@monabourgoin4869Al Anon was created for this very reason, for the loved ones of alcoholics. It’s your time for you, to focus on you and not worry about him so much. hopefully you can grow stronger each and together. Blessings ❤
I would think that such a study would be very difficult to conduct. How would one define the population? How can cases where AA has "destroyed a marriage" be identified? By what standard would one determine that a marriage failed as a result of AA, rather than some other cause? In my experience and relying upon the anecdotal reports of others, it seems AA has saved a great number of marriages. I have seen fewer instances, though there are some, where marriages ended as a result of one party attending AA. However, in these instances, it seems that the marriage was disfunctional to begin with and the fact that one party got sober simply upset the status quo. There are also cases, predictably enough where couples meet through participation in AA. Considering the number of people who are involved or exposed to AA, there are no doubt instances such as you describe. However, I do not know of any offhand and I do not believe they are either common or the norm.
I never heard to stay away from normal people. Maybe in the first year when I was starting to apply the steps I stayed close to AA. But Ive had 5 home groups in 2 states and a symptom of recovery is having relationships and fitting in with non-alcoholics. It is often referred to as "fooling" normal people into believing you are not a narcissistic alcoholic....
AA doesn't isolate or brainwash anyone. AA members go out into the world and live and work everyday.
AA gives us the strength to go out and cope in this unperfect world.
It certainly ENCOURAGES brainwashing and isolation. To say otherwise is simply not paying attention to what you don't want to see and not reading the literature the very program is BASED on.
The guy who didn't even know what the 13th step is, has no idea of AA's responsibility in exploiting new members.
Spot on, he's a chode who obviously did no research. Money is their goal
Bill Wilson was the first 13th Stepper, so much a watchdog group was in place in every meeting he attended so to stop him from exploiting newcomers.
This really makes sense. I always thought there was something "wrong" with me, AA and the 12 step thing just seemed kinda silly to me. It's really like a cult.
I have never made comment on RUclips but gotta say these professionals don't have a clue. If they studied the big book, worked the steps, did service, grew spiritually, and practiced these principals for a year or two or three, they could speak from personal experience and investigation. Furthermore, AA was built on recovery for alcoholics who were on death's door or heading for death's door. Then AA included problem drinkers and hard drinkers who haven't yet become a cute and dying. Dr silkworth Dr Jung Dr tibol all concluded that true alcoholics were immune to any form of treatment that modern medicine and psychology offered. They witnessed the few who had a spiritual psychic change rise up and stay sober. These men went on to formulate a spiritual mental and social set of principals for transformation living and service to others, and that is the birth of AA the big book the step work and service to other alcoholics. In the 30's 40's 50's the recovery rate was 75%-100% for those who practiced program at full measure. Theories and concepts like the nonsense these professionals on this video preach have been infiltrating AA since the 60's and watering down the program and killing alcoholics ever since. Amen.
These guys know better than Jung, and Silkworth and the many millions who have got sober. They just don't want their cashcow die
AA is shame-based hopeless anti-Christian syncretic poison. But hey, if you're one of the 6% it works for, good for you.
A word salad of cliches. That comment takes me back to the rooms.
This video almost moved me to tears. I knew drinking was causing me problems, but I was also a musician going to open mics (which are held at bars 90% of the time). I stopped going to music events and started going to meetings. After a while I was no longer writing anything new and I couldn't ignore how my time was being spent in these meetings.
Some people outside of AA will encourage you to drink in smaller quantities but after spending months or years around people in AA who all say "fuck drinking in moderation", you carry that into your psyche when you start drinking again. It also defies conventional wisdom to say that older people drink more than people who are of college age. So the main reason "it's like he never stopped drinking in the first place" is because all he did while he was sober was call himself an alcoholic and hear the criminal war stories... Monkey hear monkey do.
I got in new trouble after attending AA for 3 years, by then I started to feel like a hardened criminal and swore myself done with the place. I became that emotionally fragile in that time and now I can thank God that I left before finding the wrong fate. I later quit drinking with no one's help except therapy.
I love this!
I went to AA consistently once a week for 5 years. That whole time I had to stand my ground and accept that other members would oppose my decision not to be treated like a prison inmate. Dr M Scott Peck's books helped me with assertiveness and logical thinking. I had to display comfort with going against the norm of group members who had clearly never been in therapy. I think another big part of why I lasted for so long is because I went to Back to Basics meetings in addition to my weekly home group within my first 2 years. I also used the Back to Basics book to take sponsees through the steps. Because I understood the history of the program through the Back to Basics lens, I was able to defend myself against the members who had no clue. I went to AA less consistently for the next 2 years. At this time, I've been sober for 12 years and one month. Escaping my yucky life in North Phoenix by driving my hideously ugly car to my weekly home group meeting in beautiful Scottsdale was life changing. I did all of the service commitments in my weekly AA meeting when I was able to and I got my confidence back.
the snobs were nice to u
Sounds like you still have to people please. Hey , nobody gives a shit about your car or where you live.
EXCELLENT!
I attempted suicide with just over 18 months "clean" in 12 step programs. After I left I have never felt better. All the folks that I thought were my friends in the "program" are nowhere to be found. Seems to show many telltale signs of a cult.
Glad you're doing better. AA helped me stop initially but I prefer the SMART meetings now to maintain my sobriety. Antabuse really helped me as well.
They are particularly mean to people who stop attending and don't return to drinking... Everyone I knew in my hometown in AA thought I was "dead" when in fact I'm alive and now have a kid.
Just like the bar friends !
At 15:30 I like the part about how AA hurts the "creative and idiosyncratic," which describes me nicely. I have never had any alcohol or drug problems, but when dealing with my depression I have been in therapy groups, some of whose members had experience with 12 Step programs. This was a while ago (1980s) in many circles people were advocating the 12 Steps for all psychological and emotional problems, even if you had no history of drug abuse.
My two group experiences were ineffective at best, and one of the groups was downright detrimental (this one had the most 12 Step advocates, including one of the psychiatrists allegedly moderating the group). I really am an unusual personality, it's rare that my tastes and inclinations fit any common pattern. I identified very little with what the others said, my experiences had little in common the others, and what I said about myself was rarely understood. More than once I was told that what I expressed really wasn't true at all.
I noticed that I received the most approval when I denigrated myself, and met the most criticism whenever I asserted confidence in my strengths and talents. Many of the group's interpretations of my fears and anxieties were off-target, and when I'd try to explain that their impressions were inaccurate I'd be accused of denial. "We're all seeing the same things in you, why are you so sure that you're right and we're not?" I heard repeatedly.
Fortunately my personality is very resistant to peer pressure, and I ignored most of what was said. However unpleasant, that last group had no long-term detrimental effects (though I refuse ever to be in a group again). As for my depression, medication made a great difference for many years, but eventually became ineffective. But the new TMS treatment has made a great difference.
I got help with my mental illness through 12 step programs. Doctors with their pills did not help. Neither did churches.
Spot on!!!
Could you provide Dr wilsons credentails? I believe he went to william and merry but can't find out what his thesis or field is.
He mentions his alma mater in the interview. He spent more time in school than the average AA attends AA.
Seems like he wrote a paper in high school, and spent the next 30 years trying to prove it was right!?
Most of the “big book” was written by ‘automatic writing’ during seances.
The word "Sponsorship" is found in the story " He Sold Himself Short" page 287 Third addition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous Michael. Cheers
Where can i go detox with out any of the aa na shit. I been searching for uears years
Lol!😂 I am the biggest non conformist on the planet, and I often don't tow the AA line, but the fine print says, " The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. " I hold them to that, and I have been sober for 2 years. The "conformity" is usually just common sense. Take it or leave it. You can't get kicked out. I'm 57, and I drank for 44 years.
Very interesting views on AA . I beg to differ on some of what you think AA is telling people. You are right about the symptom explanation.
Many stories about people being told to stop psych meds by AA members, and subsequently winding up dead.
There are people in AA who will advise against taking any medication, including antidepresants and the like. I have heard others at meetings and featured speakers who have spoken against this. I have been taking doctor prescribed antidepresants for years. I also know people who got sober and found that they do not need some or many prescribed meds.
Damn straight.
No formula fits all personalities.
AA meetings make me WANT to drink, which is why I no longer attend.
I'm doing ok without them, but they serve a purpose for some people.
I got kicked out because I asked a question.
It's a destructive cult, unfortunately there are dozens of them, great video 🎉
15:50. Personally, my best thinking did not get me into AA. I was sent there, and wanting to help myself and others I did the best I could. Certainly an AA failure, me, I have not let it kill me. 😊
A few reasons Ed here, would hate you going to AA
Program Rate: This is a flat
$5,500 and includes four intensive sessions, scheduled for Monday - Friday, 9:00-11:30 a.m. Eastern Time. This is followed up with four 60-90 minute sessions and then additional sessions, purchased in blocks of 4 for $1,000/block, if and for as long as you want.
Deprogramming Sessions:
Following assessment, you and I discuss what, if any, services are wanted or needed. The minimum number is four 60-90 minute sessions, the maximum is usually 12. These are purchased in blocks of 4 for $1,000/block. Purchased sessions expire after 90 days if not used.
Couples sessions are available at...
If your a Chronic Alcoholic check him out, if you got any money left, and see how quickly you pass away
AA is what I call the Big brain wash.
And thanks God , I needed one ,
I've found it to be a blessing and a God send ,
Its helped me stay sober over 35 years
Most people either Love it or leave it ,
Unfortunately not to many people I know have had a happy joyus & free life , outside of AA
They might not drink any longer but they live quiet lives of desperation, my opinion an experience only !!!
Happy and sober for 17 years in AA.
45 years for me , and happy as well. Thanks to our fellowship.
That's ultimately what it becomes for most Old-timers, a social club.
AA is a tricky "program". At 55 yrs young I healed through psychedelics and other trauma release psychological modalities. Some can stay sober but for more I feel keep people stuck. I feel AA assisted in killing my dad who had 30+ yrs of sobriety but never healed and stayed sick and had a secret sexual addiction and was assaulted and murdered through it. He could "talk the talk" and be an "old timer" while suffering from unhealed trapped trauma
If your father had 30+ years of sobriety, AA sure took a long time to kill him. AA is intended to help alcoholics get and stay sober. Often that helps people deal with other problems as well, but I do not think it is appropriate to blame AA for the fact that someone did not resolve some other issue.
Too bad you have folks on who haven't a lot of experience with Big Book step study meetings...
Had to like before even watching. :)
Cbt: cognitive behavioral therapy
AA: alcoholics anonymous
Based on the names alone. Which one seems more likely to help
Actually both together work pretty good!
CBT
Both have helped me. But, I do not think cognitive therapy alone could stop my drinking.
@@jims9168 okay.
I have attended a Christian Church for 20 years - no one has EVER said that if I stopped coming back my life would be ruined. However 12 steps often are derisive of those who stop coming back. It is implied that if you leave 12 steps you are doomed. That is why I am uncomfortable with the programme
I have seen many people stop going to meetings and then going out to drink. But, sometimes it may not be for months or years.
The truth is we need a better national plan for addiction. If it was working great we would not have the addiction problem we currently have in the U.S..
Ad blocker not working at all. All I get is adverts. RUclips is a mess.
I like the no counting day's like loosing weight concept...just my opinion AA did help me only thing I might just be in the wrong group there's no unity but people should do what works for them
AA never hurts and never kills.....many therapists also have drinkinking and drug problems....good luck to everyone!
They admit they are sick people and not professionals. Personal experience, it hurts and more.
everything this man is saying about AA is way wrong. AA is the Big Book and its NOT THE MEETINGS!! The statement your best thinking got you here is NOT FROM AA!! That is treatment center jargon that was brought from treatment centers to AA meetings. If you want to know what AA is read the long form of the traditions. AA doesn't tell you to believe in anything. This guy has not a clue of what AA is.
EXACTLY!!! EVEN IF A PERSON WANTS TO STOP DRINKING ETC... THE GODDAMN PROHIBITION DAYS ARE OVER,.. THE ENTIRE BOOK WAS WRITTEN TO COWTOW TO THE MINDSET THEN.
God saved my life from the rooms of AA. He has revealed that there are many that stay sick in there, and most come in there looking for a Mate. I'll listen to my intuition from God, to stay far away from them. In the 80's, AA was successful, cant say that these days.
"AA is the wrench that fit's every nut".
All I know is that I reached AA after I had tried everything else. AA saved my life.
As long as you don't insist that everyone who tries AA is actually an alcoholic or that it is the only way to get sober. I was subjected to that circular argument "if you think you're not an alcoholic that means you are" when I joined.
@@38NDY Yes, that can be a problem. That is why AA suggests that you do not tell someone he or she is an alcoholic, but let them decide that for themselves. But the fact that one chooses to attend AA meetings or attempts some other method of getting sober suggests that there is a problem to be dealt with and that it is probably alcoholism. I do not think many people wind up at AA meetings because they came in the wrong door. And unfortunately, one of the symptoms of addiction is that one will go to great lengths to deny it and find reasons to continue with already familiar patterns of behavior.
Theres alot aways to get sober and stay sober besides aa program .but it helps me and i enjoy going to it
A lot of people don't seem to understand that AA is for alcoholics. If you can get by without a higher power, by all means, go for it. I tried everything else first too. AA is for alcoholics. It's not a treatment center AA doesn't have treatment centers. A doesn't have counselors. Let's treatment centers. I used to love sobering up drunks. I hated what happened to the Detox And it got absorbed by the treatment center. Everything changed when insurance money got involved. I couldn't afford the place so I went to AA. For a couple of years, The only thing I really did right was to keep coming back. I've been to three meetings since 2005. (Two were online.) If I'm so cool I don't need AA anymore then why am I not back there sharing my "wisdom" with people I could maybe help? Also, since when have male sponsors been available to female sponsees in AA? Has a side note, these two guys sound like they haven't been to more than two meetings, has their really misrepresenting the program. In AA that I've been to, the 13th step is highly frowned upon, with people actively intervening. In treatment centers, not so much.
I observed the same things as Dr. Wilson's findings in the 3 years I attended AA (about 500 meetings give or take). People who viscerally need to be accepted by their peers do very well in AA and so do extremely immature people with long criminal records (the same 2 categories most likely to be regular drinkers by age 15). It was impossible to ignore how all the cool kids in YPAA were also the most frequently arrested. 13th Stepping is only frowned on in name and through scapegoat examples, they freeze a few men out of getting laid with bad gossip but the more popular guys in the group date the popular girls.
You used to sober up drunks...what a load of crap ! You are delusional .
Lies do not help people with health issues.
I attended AA on and off for years. God worked through the groups to give me wonderful tools with which to navigate any situation which may arise,sober. AA introduced me to the ultimate source of joy in sober living,Jesus.
I believe people can be delivered from alcohol by calling on Jesus,but meetings can help one walk out your faith in Christ in a practical way.
Meetings can be a life saver.
These guys are way of off on the principles of aa taking anything that is bad or questionable and taking it to out of bounds. It is sad that they take the good out of it and rub it in the faces of so many people that have recovered from the drink . If the program is do right it is as simple as the second great comment love your neighbor as your self. To say it as nothing to do with Christianity is like saying Christ never came to earth.I have found a good place that helps me to stay sober with a supportive network to help. Yes there are some people in the program that are not there to get sober but for the most part I think not. I don't have to pay for it and i can leave anytime i want with no shaming or belittling. I don't believe it has anything to do with a cult as i have studied Cults .I quess all peoples experience is different but that is my truth.
Bill Wilson, the founder, that AA was spiritual kindergarten, and one should apply what they have learned in the world.
It didn't fit me.
I suppose some people can't imagine what to do with their lives after drinking so much.
I was in AA for 23 years and I was never once told that I shouldn’t be around normal people. I was told it is a bridge to normal living, it’s about being a useful member of society! The only relationships one is steered away from is anything new in early recovery and not to make big major decisions in your first year.
Amen
Aye Tommy, counsellor extrordinaire, you go to church.. you believe in Faith I take it. People go to AA based on a belief they may get sober. Why you so keen to stop them, and can you explain how the millions around the World, got who went to one meeting, decided to stay and got Brainwashed in one meeting... That's some Power isn't it aye
Please don't make a choice based on the views of Larry, Curly and Moe here.
Ps. If one can stay sober, find a belief in something, be of service and improve their lives and relationships, why is that bad?!
What I have never seen answered is that if you manage to keep alcohol out of your life, even through AA methods, isn't that exercising power and control over alcohol?
lol where does it say in the literature to give up your creative persuits!?
Who hurt you guys 😂
Ignorance is bluss
Quake, Quake, Quake.
To many former drunks and addicts becoming therapists is horrendous, one individual had served several prison sentences and bragged about it. But I informed him he would never be employed by the Prison Service nor Private Hospitals nor work with damaged children , or treat individuals with severe psychological problems, aldo with Asperger's Syndrome or Autism. Many brag about being in recovery its unbelievable, using the word recovery is just another monkey on your back. But individuals need to RECOVER, I asked one of these useless therapists of his qualifications he refused to tell me. I said by law you have to reveal this serious question. I said what's the problem as in hospital thry give you a second opinion if you require one. Surgeon's and Doctors will not hesitate to answer the question of the Academic qualifications. But this idiot most likely was banned from bars, wet the bed, been arrested so many times been violent and so on. He was a very difficult person to deal with once questions were asked. I said your never to be trusted as your refusal to answer direct questions means your hiding something. He started to panic and became unbearable and was rude, the atmosphere changed immediately and he continually became defensive, his hesitation at direct questions was obvious. You could smell the fear off him. He was only there to exploit individuals for money and he thought he'd get away with it. He became extremely embarrassed and was obviously uncomfortable with the situation. Basically he was a liar and a cheat a fraud and he was outed. Whats needed is serious regulation and to put a stop to these disgusting people who are causing more problems rather than helping people. I took enormous satisfaction in showing the other individuals what he was and exposing him they organisation asked me to leave as they didn't think wait for it I was suitable for there treatment. He used several times that individuals would be in denial another form of manipulation. Where do these sordid disgusting individuals come from. They need exposed on TV
This is funny what they say about aa helping conformists and this guy helping creative types… Im a musical artist, painter, designer and author whos covered in tattoos with pink hair, yet have been sober 14 years in AA. Also been diagnosed with the whole slew of ptsd, trauma, bi polar, panic and anxiety- and offered tons of meds by doctors like this. Didn’t take them, and now I’m healthy and not suffering the side effects of being on med cocktails from the deadly pharma industry.
He’s right about one thing-- predators run the treatment centers and conformists work there. Luckily AA is an alternative to treatment centers. Do what works for you. AA has always been the last house on the block for when you run out of insurance and money lol these guys ain’t helping anyone for free. They opened the video talking about marketing 😂
Amen, I've been sober for almost 50 years and have received many awards from society, including just recently Who's Who in America 2024. I have long history of mental illness also.
Hmmm. Seems a bit harsh, certainly not my experience…I guess some meetings are different than others😂
Aa helps me❤❤❤
Are any of you 3 recovering or recovered addicts
For what it's worth, If I were looking for help with alcoholism, I would not seek help here. Get to an aa meeting with old, smart, sober people. This guy has an agenda: his book. AA has an agenda also: helping people recover from alcoholism if they have a desire to stop drinking. Your problem may not be as funny as this guy thinks it is. Just sayin.
(By the way, AA says none of this. It does have twelve promises, worth reading.)
Aa saved my life.
Wow the AA your talking about is not the one I am in. The expression 13 stepping is discouraged because it cutifys predatory behavior.
Aa saves my life australia 1992. Six yrs sober. Saved my life again 2001 Bali. Six yrs sober...... i left aa in 2007 because of people arguing. Peaople sober but angry. But sober. Now i have no idea since 2007. I heard the sick run groups. Aa was killed a long time ago. So many aa debates. If you sober it works. I left because of peoples ego. Drunk 15yrs. 2007 to 2923. Now sober 3.5 months. Without aa. But. God bless aa.
God bless you too. I hope you find what you need. You are always welcome back.
Some of the things this guy says like you're not supposed to associate with normal people just stay within the cult is just absolute utter bullshit
That's true. I hang around normal people so often now that I don't even go to AA anymore. It's almost like I've become one of those normal people myself. Thanks AA!
I’ve been in AA for 7 years and your ideas are distortions.
Lots of stuff I disagree with in this talk. AA saved my life--been sober almost 50 years. Many people who sobered up with me are still sober.
I've seen many lives changed with AA. Yes, after a bit of AA, many can stay away for a while--but many go back to drinking. AA can people sober for long periods of time. Can these other programs keep people sober for 10-50 years like AA? But, we may be talking about different populations of individuals. I wonder if these other programs can sober people like AA does--people with grave emotional and mental problems. I am bipolar. many of us have sever depression, long history of difficulties with law, were homeless. Do these other programs work with these types. AA got me out into the world. I was just named to Who's Who in America 2023. That listing is for people who have made major contributions to our society. I attribute all my sucess to AA. Please give me statistics about your success rate after years with these other programs.
Thos guy knows nothing about the AA I am part of.
suicide is common, for alcoholics, when they can't see living life with or without alcohol.
These people are seriously talking crap. I really don't know what to think of these so valled experts, they clearly know nothing about the mechanics of AA, i have seen it save so many lives. Support groups are an absolute must for the recovering drinker.
Most people quit on their own...get real
@@michaelmick6167 you need to get real, just because you did it doesn't mean everyone can, loads struggle. Being a smart arse helps nobody. AA is full of people who need help to quit, why do you think rehabs exist. I hate self righteous ignorance.
@@bronnismofo yes you really do have to find out what works for you, one size doesn't fit all. My gripe is that these people who don't like AA and give negative talks is that they make sweeping statements about millions of people and call them cult's which is just downright stupid. I left a proper nightmare of a cult 4 years ago and AA doesn't come close.
Aa hells me
BS
AA is not a cult. AA is a group of like minded people getting together for social interaction.
Give up being a artist??? That's not the message I got from AA.