Medieval Gauntlets and Using Longswords
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- Опубликовано: 13 янв 2022
- Medieval gauntlets affect weapon use in a number of ways. Here we look at how gripping the longsword is affected by 'Milanese' mitten gauntlets of the 15th century. Gauntlets from Art of Steel ( / aos.rv.ua ).
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Развлечения
One more thing on the wheel pommel that i found quite useful wearing heavy steel gloves and a helmet: you will always know where your edge's going. You don't need to see it (and you can't in a fully enclosed visor) but you are most of the time can be sure of hitting with the edge. That will be vital for the combat i believe. And it's strangely omitted by modern hema-fighters sometimes where there a lot of hits done unintentionally with the flat.
Yes, and intentionally flat too, I just watched a cringe video today where almost all hits from both fighters were flat...it took soooo much to not comment.
At our club, flat hits don't count at all. My -sensei- teacher mentioned however these wheel pommels weren't always properly aligned with the edge in the past, so the crossguard was considered more important regarding edge alignment. And as a ball pommel is (a bit) more easy for changing stances and other movements, these have become a more popular. The ball pommel btw. suggests it should be gripped, in contrast to the disc pommel of Indian tulwars.
@@Ezyasnos That is interesting, I would love to see which swords were, and weren't, aligned with their wheel pommels: Rolan Warzecha's research suggests pommels could be aligned off-center as right- or lefthanded, to help edge-alignment. He hasn't said anything about wheel pommels, though.
I like fishtail pommels. You can grab them like a ball, but they give you strong orientation cues.
Love me some “Knowledge de Matt Easton” during lunch.
Im just imagining a pair of knights throwing down their gauntlets before grappling like hockey players do before they fight.
It made me wonder if the "ice pick" style of holding rondel daggers was influenced by the use of these types of gauntlets making it more difficult to align a knife for a thrust with "sword grip".
Well, based on the unarmored treatises I've seen the ice-pick grip is also used heavily even without gauntlets, likely due to the optimal targets still being the face, throat and upper chest which are best attacked from above.
That certainly sounds plausible to me!
biomechanics as well
stabbing down with the icepick grip uses the same muscle groups as you would with a downward strike from a full sized weapon
very strong, much damage good
There's also the theory that when under stressful situations downward blows come far more naturally and aggressively than any others. Why not take advantage of human nature and utilise them?
I've heard someone claim that this is the reason that rondel daggers have, well, rondels. The large disks cover and protect the two parts of the hand that the mitten gauntlet doesn't.
It feels like its been a while since we saw a longsword-related video, it's a welcome sight! I like early modern weapons fine, but medieval warfare is what originally got my subscription :)
I'm a fantasy comic artist and this channel gives me so much insight that helps my clothing, armour, and weapon designs feel more lived in and functional. The little things add so much value! Apart from a handful of unarmed martial arts I've only ever trained with Naginata in the Tendo Ryu style which has fairly different forms and footwork to HEMA forms that I've seen so it would be nice to get some practical demonstrations from an experienced HEMA practitioner in future. Love what you're doing Matt!
Thumbs up for putting in the effort to make drawings feel more realistic.
That's so cool, I'm a fantasy comic artist too! Do you have any links to your work?
I remember when I started sparring with my SPES heavies and a fencing jacket. It was a colossal difference and I couldn't believe how often I'm gripping the pommel simply because it's more comfortable and allows for better control during the fight. Great points all around, cheers!
That's exactly why I prefer wheel or rounded fishtail pommels in HEMA. With bare hands in drills, a scent stopper is fine. But once you throw the gloves in you lose some dexterity and some feeling of the grip. With a wheel I can much more easily control my edge alignment and switch between standard and a sideways thumb grip for zwerchauen, schielhauen, etc.
Even in plenty of German sources you can see the people gripping the pommel (In Meyer and the Wallerstein Codex for example) and you can often see how the grip is changed to adapt for certain techniques.
Large pauldrons and a helmet can also be quite limiting to the use of a longsword over your head. When I do armored longsword duels, I use smaller, lower profile (and less protective) pauldrons than the ones I use in melees to get better range of motion.
+scholagladiatoria *Several boxing leagues of the early 20th Century through today had rules for weighted soft gloves resembling mitten gauntlets, excepting the metal.* EVERLAST® has several models with this resemblance. English mitten gauntlets had better wrist flexibility for wielding infantry polearms (such as the war bill) than Milani, which were devised for cavalry as wrist protection against enemy infantry blows.
Thank you Matt, this was both entertaining as thought provoking. I feel like this kind of thought can help us see things in a new light and might explain some enigmas as well in the future.
It's amazing how the prevalence today in the interests of martial arts and gear of the past is revealing fundamental misconceptions in many common historical perspectives. You learn so much living (and fighting) like people of the past, so much more than from studying artifacts on their own, or from writing, art, etc.
Battle of Agincourt, I'm looking at you 👀
Seems to me that what you lose in mobility you make up for with the extra protection of the armour. I.e. you won't be able to do as many fancy guards when fighting in armour, but the fact that you have armour on makes you able to tank the strikes you can't parry.
Absolutely. Did SCA combat for over a decade with gauntlets. IF they are fitted correctly with practice you have 85 to 90% of your mobility. In exchange your hand will be knocked aside by a blow long before you feel it.
Great topic. Opened wider understating of Longsword in Armoured fighting.
I would love to hear about the history and evolution of hand protection in general, but mostly with polearms. Not only all types of gloves, but shields (when they were the only thing to protect hands) and crossguards on different types of weapons (but don't forget polearms, I'm kinda obsessed with them). I don't like swords much, but I'd like to know more about complex guards of later period swords, rapiers and sabers as well.
Good points, the interaction between weapons and armor is still a relevant issue to this day, or should I say, has become relevant again with the re-introduction of armor to warfare.
How you hold a rifle and what dimensions you would favor from the rifle's furniture in an unarmored situation differs quite significantly from how you would hold said rifle or which dimension you would favor from it's furniture if you are fully equipped.
A protective vest combined with load-bearing equipment will add to your own bulk and restrict your range of comfortable movement, a helmet may restrict you, a headset, if worn separately underneath the helmet may add restriction and a gas-mask will absolutely restrict you.
Many modern rifles have adjustable length stocks to account for varying anatomical dimensions of soldiers, but also to accommodate varying levels of restriction from protective equipment.
Has anyone ever done a "tacticool" sword with an adjustable-length grip?
True. It’s surprising how much a vest changes manipulation of a rifle. And of course changes placement and draw for a carry weapon.
Always an interesting presentation. Rational and well-thought out.
Great analysis!
Love your work
Excellent points Matt. Thank you for sharing this with us. Cheers
Nice one, Matt!
I've always liked the term Weapons Set for this sort of thing. Good proof of why.
Now i'm curious to see gothic fingered gauntlets used and see how those do for using a longsword. Since Germans tended to have slightly longer hilts and more flexible gauntlets it seems.
Yeah
Yeah, I would imagine that a fighter trained in a style that excluded gripping the pommel would just have a sword with a longer grip.
This was a great video. I never thought about the specificities of fighting in gauntlets. I appreciate the depth of knowledge you bring to the practical aspects of martial combat.
So interesting and well explained!
I find it interesting how gauntlets disadvantage crossing the hands. My school tends to avoid that for grappling context as it binds both your hands, but the use of armor may also have influenced that doctrine.
Interaction of armor and weapons is a very interesting topic indeed, even if with more practical HEMA context! Please keep it going :)
I know you've had it for a while, but the new audio setup sounds great! Your original run of videos (the tulwar, pata for example) had a ringing that made it physically uncomfortable to listen to on good headphones, so I only got to watch when I could wrest control over the living room TV. But your new mic sounds great everywhere!
Very interesting. Learned new things today🤗 I would love to see more on armoured gauntlets. Different types, pros/cons...etc😍
A lot more interesting than I first thought. Certainly having a lot of handy weapons is huge asset.
Excellent advice, yes it really makes things different when the armor is on.⚔👍
I really want to pay to see the movie where Matt is transported back in time and forced to live by his substantial wits.
This is the first time I have seen your channel. Very informative in regards to midevil gauntlets and there limitations in sword fighting. Now I understand why my replica swords are half blades not full blades.
I found it cool that you mentioned the two finger locking grip on the pommel, that's exactly what I do with my spes gloves and ensifer feder (which has a pear-shaped pommel). It feels so natural.
I sometimes wonder how much the effigies of lords and other high-ranking knights really represent the fighting kit of ordinary men at arms. I can easily imagine that the armor on nobles was far more optimized for defense and total coverage, while the actual fighting men had kit that more favored mobility, vision and breathing.
@@shinobi-no-bueno I agree that the weight and cumbersomeness of plate armor is overestimated in the popular mythology, but I think that a full plate harness was beyond the means of most regular men-at-arms, except in the 15th-16th century when professional soldiers became a thing.
Context!
really good point at the end👍
I use Hourglass Gauntlets with a fairly large bell over the wrist and forearm and they provide a ton of movement, but I still run into the same problem with guards that cross the wrist, the bells knock into each other. Another draw back to the hourglass shape is that you can get the tip of your opponents weapon caught inside the bell. Now, its only happened to me a couple times (probably because it isn’t a valid target in our sparring system, for safety reasons) but we do see in the treaties this being used as an offensive technique. Lovely pair of gauntlets and great video!
gorgeous vid as always. You should clunk by next autumn here. For our medeival festivities. Cause there are some points you be rambling past.
Thank you.
You had me at gauntlets. You kept me at longsword
Those gauntlets look *so good*!
Looking forward to some videos on how to use the poleaxe in the future!
I'd love to see more videos about the dynamics of pommels in full kit. I've always wondered about the differences in shape and position relative to the hand protection worn.
Makes me wonder what a modern engineered solution would look like. These kinds of topics always do. Thanks for the video, enjoyed it.
learned something new - I am only training myself with a longsword without gauntlets (don't have any) makes totally sense that they are part of an integrated weapon system
Very cool
The "context of armored fighting" from Captain Context. Yay!
Underground pollaxe fight club? Or can you not talk about it?
7:42 The Spes heavies are exactly like that. In fact I have even less mobility because the wrist/forearm plates are even longer and flare out more. e.g. 8:02 that position is completely impossible.
I was thinking this, as well. The heavies seem to approximate the limitations of this style of gauntlets quite nicely! I'll gladly trade the mobility for survivability, myself.
I watched a couple videos some time back of a guy who took a pair of SPES Heavy Sparring gloves and modified them for greater mobility, while minimizing loss of safety. I managed to find part one: ruclips.net/video/DKKLcLou05M/видео.html
@@caseydubois3645 Cool, thanks
I'm curious about the question of exactly what longswords were designed for. I think of medium-sized ones like the Albion Munich as marvelously flexible sidearms, suited for many scenarios. Based on Albrecht Dürer's *Knight, Death and the Devil*, Paulus Hector Mair's fight book, & many other sources, we know men-at-arms wore such longswords. They serve well enough in the capacity for striking one-handed from the saddle. An estoc would be better for thrusting & a sabre for cutting, but such a longsword does both fine. On foot in armor, it again performs as slightly worse estoc, used with a halfsword grip. On foot in no armor or incomplete armor, the long handle allows for a number of potent techniques. Period fencing manuals suggest longswords saw widespread unarmored use. Contemporary mix-weapon sparring tends to favor rapiers over longswords, though you can find skilled longsword fencers who at least one their own against skilled rapier fencers. Few historical sources address the matchup. George Silver rated the two-handed sword quite highly & wrote that there was no question weapons made for two hands have the odds over the single-handed sword or rapier. We don't know exactly what Silver's two-handed sword look like except that it had a blade of the same 37-40in length as his "short sword." It was probably quite similar to a standard HEMA feder, a few inches longer than the Ablion Munich. The same goes for Gérard Thibault's two-handed sword, though both his & Silver's may have been rather more substantial than a standard feder. Thibault gave instructions for how to defeat the two-handed sword with single rapier, but paid it considerable respect, placing it after the rapier & dagger & rapier & shield. In any case, medium-sized stiff longsword is at least a pretty good weapon sidearm for unarmored fencing. So this type of longswords made not be the absolute best sidearm for any given situation, but they're decent across the board. I don't know for sure, but I believe the folks who made them had versatility in mind.
You answered your own question: You want the perfect weapon for every possible scenario? Have fun dragging an armoury around. You want a single weapon that is "good enough" in any situation? Get a long sword.
Obligatory pronunciation correction for "Feder": the length of the sounds should be like (Darth) "Vader", otherwise it'd be written "Fedder".
Having said that, super-interesting video as usual, thanks! :)
Awesome info! Thanks!! I think the differences between German and Italian systems with respect to pommel grabbing and even the differences in guards (namely the crossed ones) is due to more focus on Blossfechten aspect in Liechtenauer's system. I.e if you have no gauntlets, there is no need to grab the pommel! (may be that what Dobringer meant when he said don't grab the pommel :) ,also in Fiore there are some guards geared more towards armored fighting and they don't cross hands.
Reminds me of hockey goalie blocker. useful glove inside, armor on the exterior.
It's worth mentioning that the "Doebringer" manuscript bit about not gripping the pommel was referencing Liechtenaur's blossfechten, so fighting without armor against a similarly unarmored opponent, and even then, it was advice regarding cutting mechanics, so gripping the pommel when thrusting or winding, or while wearing armored gauntlets, still doesn't go against that text. And as others have said, other German language texts don't really say anything on the matter, and images from many if those texts (including those in the Liechtenauer tradition) show pommel gripping.
Those look cool 😎
Would be interested in cutting video showing modifications of technique to accommodate the gauntlets.
Once I spotted the migration era sword hanging in the background (to the right of the frame), I couldn't concentrate on what you were saying because I have to keep looking at it and admiring it. Can you please do a video to talk about it?
1:56 "Perhaps for the Italian knight who wanted these gauntlets, most importantly..." *does italian hand gesture*
Can you make a video about lances? Can couched lances be parried? Were they dropped and/or broken during a charge and need to be replaced? How commonly were they used against infantry vs cavalry?
you should do a small follow up on hand rondels for fingered gauntlets. they are a quick and easy way to make fingered gauntlets acts as mitten/ clamshell gauntlets. i only getting into the sport and its how i got my practice kit set up
sounds like a shout out to Matt
I can't imagine determining edge alignment with those gauntlets on.
I used very similar mitten gauntlets with pole arms (SCA). They are the only way to go for that. And the farther apart the hands are the faster you can move the weapon. I find myself mostly using Katana stances with longswords and gauntlets. I also use a ball pommel on long and great swords to make gripping it more comfortable.
"The Italian humanist historian Paulus Jovius writing in the early 1500s also described the two-hand greatsword as being used by Swiss soldiers to chop the shafts of pikes at the battle of Fornovo in 1495."
Hi: Any chance you all can test this out on some pikes? Having, years ago, reenacted with some ECW-types in a pike block, my preference would be to see a bidenhänder tested against a small group/formation/school? of pikes, rather than just a single pike.
Skallagrim has a video on that topic. The basic idea seems to be too use the mass of a greatsword to prevent enemy pikemen from effectively using their weapons which then allows your own pikemen to close in and finish them off.
I wonder if there's utility in that tactic in knocking pike heads off. It seems unlikely that the wooden haft would be significantly damaged, but perhaps in a mass-produced weapon like a pike that you might end up with poor end connections.
It might be a long shot given the leverage and how they're held, but I also wonder about simply knocking the pike out of the man's hands. That would probably make an instant encumbrance for the unit, having a bigass pole bouncing around.
Almost all the german primary sources i've read so far place the greatsword in every second or third rank and they give the reason that is: to defend your own pikemen from being bypassed by people with shorter arms. Interestingly enough many sources do mention that pikes should have langets else the cavalry would lop off the heads. So it seems that it was possible but that this wasn't the purpose of greatswords. They were ofc used for skirmishing and other things as well but nowhere they write about them specifically lopping off pike heads. For example Hans Wilhelm Kirchof or Adam Junghans von Olnitz.
I know some reports of such events but none of them is very clear (one being second hand report) and one having far more halberds than greatswords in attacking group. With halberds we do know that this was done by putting them into the ground or beating them to the side. For example aurelio cicuta mentions this where he also says that great swords wouldnt be able to cut pikes.
From my own experience with this weapon it may be possible under the right cirucmstances tactically there would be better solutions.
Could you do a video on the gauntlet sword?
Outstanding video, just what I was looking for.
Out of curiosity (I am fully aware that it is impractical and absolutely not done). Could one shoot a bow while wearing fingered hourglass gauntlets?
I enjoyed the video! Will there be a video of that Langeid-sword on your wall, or is that a patreon-only? Asking for a friend..
It would be interesting to see you try the same mobility tests with lower arm protection on... As the gauntlets overlap the lower arm protection, I expect that in that case all crossing over guards become almost impossible...
One-Handed "Flail" Is My Favorite!!!
What a gripping topic
Hi Matt. Are you going to introduce us to that Swedish looking sword that recently appeared behind you?
I am now wondering how much range of a motion do you lose when you add in the Pauldrons with the Gauntlets?
I have a helmet from the same workshop and am quite happy with it, and those gauntlets look nice too. But they seem a bit large for you - does the inner side of the palm cut into the handle of the weapon?
Interesting that mitten gauntlets became common after fingered ones, despite having a simpler shape and presumably being easier to make. Maybe they were facing more weapons optimized against plate armor so the emphasis on protection needed to increase?
Maybe wearing them together could be a good way to use the advantages of both- At least, if the hand that needs more flexibility isn't the one that also needs more protection, with the particular way you're fighting.
Little conceptual details about these mittens, for dexterity it may have been better to choose a model with a lining to sew the glove around the palm. First your hand would be granted more freedom (larger glove palm) and it is easier to equip/remove, second it can even avoid all the leather straps (or the palm one) depending on the configuration of fingers. Because with these you will probably find handling harder than it should be to manipulate any weapon, that because of those layers superposing in your grip combined with a tight glove, and narrow wrist motion.
Ex : CH S18, Avant, ref_arm_1178, ref_arm_1152, 29.150.7k (Met), etc
To note that it also exist a configuration with a wrist assembly like that - 2 parts - but articulated, allowing for a bit more range of motion. The difference in use was big enough for me to adopt it in my production.
Hmm...it seems that your fingertips like to slip out a bit from under those plates, maybe those additional fingertip covers would be a good idea :) ?
With the sword in armour, from the perspective of Fiore, shouldnt you use the postas di spada in armour like, posta sagittaya, vera crose, crose bastarda, serpetino lo soprano instead of Fenestra, posta longa and coda longa?
I miss your Albion Ringeck!
Very cool.
We can tend to forget that not all match ups in the middle ages were of people with identical, matching equipment.
I do a lot of armored longsword fighting and I use hourglass mitten gauntlets. They do have their limitations and restrictions, but I find that you can still use a Longsword very well and with a lot of finesse. The thing I find more limiting is actually the weight of the armor (mine is about 25-30 lbs heavier then it was historically so take it for what it's worth). I find that I actually have to simplify my fighting to preserve energy. When fighting for long periods of time in armor conserving energy is just as important as skill. It's difficult
So gauntlets, in my experience, don't add many limitations because you are already using simpler technique. You have to learn to be as effective as possibly with using as little energy as possible so some moves are just not practical in armor (at least the heavier armor used today in armored combat). It's actually gotten to the point where a sword feels more comfortable to me while wearing gauntlets.
Whats your thought on flexible offhand? So instead of crossing your wrists, your offhand leaves the handle/pommel and joins your swordhand position or reinforcing your swordhands wrist. So depending on the strike direction/guard position, your offhand switches flexible between pommel and swordhand position. my personal experience is, that i have stronger strikes and blocks by "abandonning" the pommel instead of crossing the wrists.
Im curious would it be the same for the Greatswords? Their handle is longer but is it long enough to give the gauntlets the same freedom as the poleaxe would? I know several illustrations of half and full mitten gauntlets worn by Landsknechte with Greatswords but would they need to restrict the usage of some techniques?
One thing that's not explicitly said here that I think is quite important. My understanding is that many of the guards in the standard unarmored longsword systems developed in a context with a high degree of emphasis on keeping your hands back (out of harm's way) because they are otherwise tempting targets that are quite easy to damage.
Once you have gauntlets (and presumably other armor) on, that completely changes the equation. So what if you're stance(es) are vulnerable to sniping at the hands and wrists. Those attacks will do absolutely nothing.
Just a thought on the crowd that do not want to grip the pommel. Could it be because of the style of pommel or the quality of its attachment in the area? If you have a pommel break off while holding it I can see it being troublesome for example.
How important is keeping those hands back guard positions when you wearing such protective gantlets?
I really like wheel pommels. They look mint and I find them not uncomfortable at all.
Those look very nice and accurate to be sure and they'll protect very well. Except where they don't. You're going to want to be very mindful of your finger and thumb tips.
While sacrificing some accuracy I've found I far prefer Grettir gauntlets to all others for (in order) protection, mobility, weight and accuracy but that's my own priority sequence.
Did I miss why they say not to grip the pommel or is it in another video?
Do we have a time frame for the new windlass releases matt?
Not exactly, but spring time I think.
how good are the gauntlets at shock absorption? (i.e. can you punch without breaking your fingers)
Listening to these without watching the screen, you sound like Terry Jones.
can you shoot a musket or crossbow in those mitten Gauntlets?
I have found that it is critical on how the thumb is cut away. If the thumb has a large cut out around the knuckle with an over lapping thumb piece then no issues with swords.
My favorite part of this video is the clattering metal sounds.
Medieval boxing gloves!
Cool!
whats the sword on the upper right corner? insteresting hilt
How about with the Zwihander?
In romance languages like french italian and spanish the words for knight derive from the word for horse, in english however this doesn't happen, and curiously enough english knights tended to fight on foot more frequently than their collegues from the mainland.
"Ritter" probably derives from the word for "rider"; did German knights mostly fight mounted too?
Knight looks very close to the german "Knecht" which means servant, and it does make sense as servants of their liege, then again germans use another word alltogether to define knights so i really dont know if the words are related or if there's a connection between the fact that, at least the XIV-XV centuries, english knights fought more on foot than on horse
Early English knights spoke french. Horses were a must for comms, recon, flanking, skirmish and routing and killing enemy on the run. Charges were to be avoided but done in later great battles as too costly.
@@digitaljanus Yes
I might have missed it, but is the sword on the far right (left to the shield) new? What sword is it?
This makes me curious how practical a different style of "half mitten" gauntlet would be.
Instead of the "half of each finger in a mitten style then fingers extending from it" what if you have your thumb and index finger separately fingered, and just the lower 3 fingers in a mitten style piece? A little more freedom of movement with that upper part of your hand which is most likely to be making use of that flexibility, but still with the added protection of a connected piece of armour covering the lower - and easier to hit - part of your hand.