Steep Spiral Landing - MzeroA Flight Training
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- Опубликовано: 29 июл 2015
- m0a.com The FAA is really pushing steep spirals in their new ACS (Airmen Certification Standards) not only for commercial pilot but also for private pilot branded under the term "emergency descent"
Tower is probably happier if you call it a "steep spiral," instead of an "emergency descent." They'd probably have more questions for you.
Love how the plastic cover plate over the instruments is flopping loosely like it is about to fall off just like every Cessna ever.
Can't wait to do some of these in the next few days, on the last leg of my commercial, your videos have helped me through the whole journey.
this video was so awesome. Im a student pilot in john wayne airport, California and I was even a little nervous just watching this....
Great skill demonstrated here. I do enjoy the books and video library, especially the personal stories you share. The tips have helped me a great deal. Cheers
Awesome, thank you!
I think it's worth clarifying that a steep spiral can be an emergency descent, but not all emergency descents are steep spirals. I don't recall there being a specific emergency descent procedure in the POH for a C-172 K model, but in some aircraft there is a prescribed procedure. If the examiner asks for an emergency descent in an airplane that has one described in the POH, it would be appropriate to fly that procedure.
that was a thing of beauty....smooth
Awesome video just started my commercial maneuvers thank you
Way to go Jason! You keep pulling some good stuff out of the bag. Always interested in your next video. Chuck🛫🛬
Thanks so much!
Excellent video, and a great skill for every pilot. Tracy Reed is right, we can come down a lot faster, but this is geared towards Private. The commercial standard I was taught was to get the speed down to best glide for that amount of bank- around 75 and coordinated- then bring it down about 1500-1700 fpm. But, one must have an eagle eye on attitude and airspeed, and Jason, you are doing this for private standards, right? But the main things are attitude, position at 1000 agl (abeam the field for landing, ready to turn downwind), and close enough to do the power off 180 from that spot. All of which you covered beautifully. In Texas, every field is a landing field, but you still have to set it up properly. Very clear demonstration! (Hey Jason, I am almost to my CFIA! Thanks for all the support!)
Man your awesome, i'm a beginner Pilot and I appreciate your work.
Brilliant, done with confidence, nice one.
Outstanding presentation. Just like "High key" and "Low key" in Naval Flight Training at PNS.
Thanks for watching, Ed! Fly safe!
I must say I am impressed by your videos and knowledge. I stumbled across them and have watched several of them. You are a great instructor. As an old flyer myself I wish I had guys like you around when I was learning. By the way would you use the spiral in an engine out situation? Not testing your knowledge just curious. Thanks for the great videos.
Mr. Jason!
How are you my good friend!
Love Your Detail explanation!!! Love watching these and I know Im struggling with my Commerial Maneuvers :(
Loved the video...wish there was a ground based camera as well...had to be a interesting sight from the ground.
Ditto. Would have been a nice observation
Be cool if he would've set up a time lapse for it before they went up😁
Awesome video!! Love it!
Great job. I love your video's. Very helpfull.
Great video, I really like it!
I am starting my journey and apriaciate your videos thank you.👍
Awesome video.
Thanks!
Ocala is a great airport to fly into tower is always friendly and the restaurant has some good food.
Excellent! Yet again
Thanks!
Awesome video Jason! I am wondering if you trimmed the aircraft once you cut the power or were you just fighting the yoke? Thanks.
Awesome. I’m practicing this tomorrow!
Just practiced this yesterday with my CFI . Great video
Nice work! Thanks for watching!
Fantastic video, thank you!
Glad you liked it! Thank you for watching!
Awsome lesson. However, how about the forward slip at an extended leg for final?
I just love your videos
Hey Jason, Mike from up north in Alberta, Canada. Just got my PPL this year and Im stoked to have it!
My question: Do all flight instructors know about this maneuver? I'd like to take one up and learn it! Looks like a useful trick, and it'd be fun to learn at the same time! :)
Thanks!
(I'm always learning, does that make me a good pilot? LOL :) )
could you do more commercial maneuvers?
Well you just made a three pointer landing. I was stopped from doing that by my instructor yet thats when I get the smoothest landing.
Good Show!!
I remember that from my commercial check ride and training.
Thanks Jason - I was taught to do a steep spiral/emergency decent with full flaps and holding the airspeed just below Vfe..... that way you're already configured for landing and I think the descent rates are comparable. Thanks.
davet11 I think it's best to perform the 172 steep spiral to a landing without flaps. You may get fast so it's good to keep the flaps retracted to avoid exceed Vfe. The maneuver is intended to lead to an approach and landing. It's good to do things the same way every time. If the spiral leads to a pattern and landing, you can add the flaps in the same place you would normally, if not a little later on a tighter pattern than usual.
Huh? If the flaps are retracted why should you care about exceeding Vfe? The idea is to get down fast which I believe happens with full flaps and an airspeed close to Vfe. Only time I'd do a steep spiral without flaps would be if I'd an electrical problem (and couldn't extend flaps) or on fire and hoping that additional airspeed would be of help. Last thing I'd want to be doing at the end of a steep spiral is messing around with flaps/airspeed - I'll be in the landing configuration as soon as possible thank you very much.
Clarification: If the flaps are retracted you don't have to worry about exceeding Vfe because that restriction isn't present. I like the idea of adding flaps once you're in the pattern to keep procedures consistent.
Brilliant flying, fantastic landing, great skills, couldn't wish to see more.Great idea to pull some Carby heat once or twice in the descent and a warm-up blast or two to clear the plugs. Anyone who has read: " Fate is the hunter" by Ernest K Gann, will remember that he too, had to do an identical Emergency Spiral approach, (and them some) due to a hydraulic malfunction in a C54/DC4 ,no less. He did not mention "pulling on some Carby heat" but it sure makes sense to do so.However, he did mention that the 4 mighty radials were "crackling and tinkling and cooling:' far below their prescribed limits, or cooling far too quickly.However, they opened up ok as he straightened her out and he did a text book landing, as did you..Well done
Thanks for sharing, Mark! Fly safe!
Enjoyed your video and subbed your channel, thanks!
Good job.
Good video, Jason, but I disagree that a steep spiral is the same as an emergency descent for a number of reasons:
1) The Commercial Pilot - Airplane PTS lists a Steep Spiral and an Emergency Descent as two different maneuvers, with different standards.
2) The Private Pilot - Airplane PTS Emergency Descent description is essentially the same as the Commercial PTS emergency descent description (except to less stringent standards), and is quite different from the Commercial Steep Spiral standards.
3) The Airplane Flying Handbook describes each maneuver in detail (p.8-25 for steep spiral; p.16-6 for emergency descent), and the descriptions do not match.
Though in a "real world" emergency situation you will need to use elements from both of these maneuvers, for the purpose of the checkride they are separate maneuvers, entirely independent of one another.
Conor Dancy And what then is a "tactical descent"?
What the C-17 can do is a "tactical descent". Spoilers extended, flaps extended, reverse thrust set and a rate of descent *easily* into the 10,000-20,000fpm range. Tactical descents are entirely different than steep spirals and emergency descents.
ACS says
CA. V.B.S3 "not to exceed 60 degree angle of bank"
CA. V.B.S4 "bank not to exceed 60 degrees at steepest point in turn"
@@ThatWasLoud So they are basically the same but with different overarching terms?
Got the first view again hah! On a roll here!
Was great to meet you at #OSH15 buddy!
Excellent!
Many thanks!
Cool video guys thanks.
Great video thanks
Excellent
I enjoyed the video, an especially the relaxed mood you presented. I was disappointed however that you made no mention of airspeeds throughout the maneuver. Important to me, as I have been given conflicting information on speeds to use.
Killed it!!!
Nice trick Jason. Do you have more of that to share?
Years ago, Rick Geiger in Montana taught me to descend like this in my Maule at full flaps. IIRC, it dropped at close to 2,000 FPM. Does that sound about right?
I will test this in my Aerotrek A220 (Kitfox clone) with and without Flaperons and report back.
The student looks like Tim Conway. This clip has the quality of a nice comedy skit. But it is a good training material. Thanks!!
Thanks for watching!
Gonna go out and try the steep spiral this weekend. just got my grades back up and I am un-grounded for the weekend and the wx looks good.. ha...
wow great information
Very nice.
Awesome video! You mentioned that a good idea would be to have the area you're circling underneath you're left main wheel. My question is, how would I determine that if im seating in the right seat as a CFI? From that angle I find it pretty hard to see anything under or near the left side.
Hi Luis! Depending on the airplane (if it is a high-wing or low-wing) you can use another reference point! Maybe a bolt on the strut or wing, for example. I hope this helps! Thanks for watching and fly safe!
I had this thrown at me during my checkride. Unfortunately, I didn't do it to the examiner's expectation. The PTS doesn't actually say how to do it. Which is what my instructor and the FAA argued when I failed that part of the ride. So, how do you handle that? And what about different aircraft. The POH for the Cherokee does not have that in it.
This manoeuvre was developed by military to safely land planes in the war zone. Also commonly used by tow planes to quickly land to safe fuel. If it is part of an official training, it means USA is preparing pilots for more than just a civilian flights...
In such small airplane you can get even faster using spin on the enge of the runway, recover straight into spiral and land (breaking 2000fpm at low speed).
Michael Ksiezopolski A spin at low altitude would be too dangerous.
Dennis Kitainik It is not as dangerous as you think it is. Try to climb up to 10000' on c152 and engage a 6 turns spin. Recover and check your altitude. To land you do not have to do 6 turns, 1 or 2 should be enough! It is just an exercise, try it, analyse it, practice it.
+Michael Ksiezopolski The only way I would consider the above in a true emergency is if my hair were on fire, but it might be fun to practice in a C150, or something else which is safe to spin. DPA
+daffidavit It is good to practice such manoeuvres and never be involved in such occurrence...
And yes it is fun to practice circuits and emergencies. I do like it personally and I do it as often as I can.
I agree. Too many pilots are comfortable just flying straight and level, after they get their certificates. Repetition and practice at the fringes of the flight envelope at safe altitudes is what makes good pilots better.
Awesome
Thank you
woundering i'm up for a review are you able to do it for me with your courses?
Hey Jason. Would you recommend this technique for a spot landing competition?
I like the slip for loosing altitude, but the spiral is cool to, done that many times. All depends on altitude.
That is so cool! Wish I`d have known and practiced that in my 10yr. 1600hr. tenure. Did 600 hrs in my RV-4. to end it (gas prices and income) I always landed from a high approach. Arnold Palmer (an experienced twin driver besides golfer) said "I never saw a short put go in". That`s what I`d tell the idiots, at the local strip, when they `d say I came in too high. (had to rant)
The ACS says you have to keep a constant radius from your point and not to exceed a 60 degree bank and have to do 3 turns and recover 1500ft AGL.
Jason... Sup buddy. Love your vids.. I fly out of KTTD.. Oregon
Hey how important is it to stay coordinated in this steep spiral and also what airspeed should I aim for ?
Chris Duvall
+Christopher Duvall I was wondering the same thing!! For such bank angle, the airspeed should be around 70+ kts, and you MUST keep it coordinate in order to avoid entering a spin! But I'd like to read Jason's thoughts on this!!
Led Santos actually stall speed is only higher in a bank if you want to hold altitude at the same time. If you descend in a steep spiral you are simply trimmed for best glide and you do not add back pressure. Therefore you still have 1 G and Stall Speed is not increased.
Florian Rhyn That’s correct. Bank angle alone doesn’t determine stall speed.
Thank you, very cool landing , thank you.
Many thanks!
I wonder if it is possible to perform this kind of maneuver when instrument flight is required given the weather condition?
Chapter 9 Performance Maneuvers recommends full throttle for a few seconds during the spiral to prevent excessive engine cooling.
Yes - typically the throttle is recycled idle to full and back to idle once every 360 when facing into the headwind. Hope that helps!
I was taught to have a steeper angle of descent which would normally result in a high airspeed but also to pull some G's causing lots of drag from induced lift to get a greater rate of descent than 1000fpm with the idea being that you are on fire and need to get down ASAP. This gets you down faster which would be useful in a fire situation but you do have to be sure to arrest the rate of descent at the appropriate time.
+Tracy Reed I'm no instructor, but my understanding is: The steep spiral descent is for when you want to get down quickly and are over the target area you want to get down to. If you're on fire and just need to get to the ground quickly, I'd go for a standard emergency descent (basically an exaggerated slip) where you go carb heat on, throttle to idle, cram the rudder to the right, roll the plane to the left, and nose down, then nose up/down as appropriate to keep a sane airspeed. Those kind of emergency descents will net you 1500 to 2000 fpm easy, and should keep you from getting disoriented. You can even steer the plane during the descent, or add a bit of a spiral or S-turns to bleed off even more altitude.
+queuerayzy I agree with you on this to some degree. We all know there is a glide speed for each airplane, but Barry Schiff teaches that there is a slower speed, called the "minimum descent" speed which keeps you up in the air longer. He had an article on this in AOPA mag some years ago. The glide speed gives you maximum distance while "minimum descent" speed "keeps it up longer" so to speak. If there is no fire or other urgent need to get the plane down, why not try to "keep it up longer"? Just maybe, you can get the damn thing restarted. Carb ice, or contamination in the fuel lines can sometimes resolve so you don't have to put her down on a rough chunk of farm land that looked so smooth when you were much higher. JMHO DPA
Now you are glider flying Jason. I think most people, (let's say who are unfamiliar with flying) would be amazed and perhaps even shocked at how long it takes to descend when you need to get down fast. (That is, short of pointing the nose at the ground of course) Many people believe without power (just like in the movies) a plane comes screaming out of the sky like a rocket and crashes like so much scrap iron. Glider pilots have to learn how to manage energy and always hit the mark where they plan to land. Of course you could go around, maybe if you still have enough energy left but most of the time to land you have already bled off your speed and you will need to be on the mark or else be in the weeds or the dreaded off field landing which entails a lot of work to retrieve your bird. I am glad they are including emergency descents in the check ride now. Many never practice it and when the need arises they may panic which can be fatal. Thanks for another great example of things pilots should know and practice. This one could be a life saver.
Very helpful
Thnx
What airspeed should i keep through out the maneuver? Thanks
What was your airspeed? Also, did you lean the mixture to avoid spark plug fouling idling that long?
An occasional cockpit snapshot would make sense to see the instruments.
Lastly, my CFI mentioned emergency descent and steep spiral as separate maneuvers - the former is to get down as fast as possible at high airspeed but turns don't have to be that steep (30-45 deg), while the latter is more about high bank angle of 50-60 degrees, but airspeed should be more like best glide speed. Can you comment on these points please..?
Hey Jason, it was a pleasure meeting you and your team at Oshkosh!
One thing I am not totally clear on is at such a steep angle (60 degrees!), what is preventing a spin? Being coordinated with the rudder does the trick? With my CFI we did 45 degree steep turns, but not spiraling in like this...
Thanks!
hchattaway A spin can never happen if the wing (one wing specifically) is never stalled. Bank angle is irrelevant with regards to a stall. You can stall at 0 degrees bank or 90 degrees bank, conversely you can keep the wing from stalling at any bank angle. Remember, angle of attack (AoA) is the critical angle, not bank angle. Keep the AoA at less than the stall A0A and you're fine no matter what your airspeed or bank angle is.
DJ Vegh Thanks for the reply! I understand what you are saying.... would it be true that if they used inside rudder which would spin the tail around and stall the inside wing, that would then create a stall condition that would initiate a spin?
Thanks!
Wow that’s cool, I will be asking my instructor to do this with me!
Excellent! I'm sure it'll be a great experience!
On the commercial test, does the examiner usually link the steep spiral to the power off 180? seems like the way you did it makes sense.
Can we fly with you if we come to Ocala? Would love to fly and learn something new from you.
If he’s trying to do a maximum descent, why would he not extend his flaps initially?
Are you based out of the Ocala Airport?
Jason: good tip I like most of your videos. What airspeed are you using in the steep spiral or are you just using 1000 feet per min. on the VSI as your reference? Of course you don't want to exceed a safe speed though. Thanks
After learning in mastering spins you can get down a lot faster. If you practice them enough you could actually recover your spin in the downwind.
Cool. Never did this before. Spin's, spirals, side slips, engine failures, step turns. Interesting
Jason, what was your airspeed during the steep spiral (60 deg bank angle)
It's usually done between 95 and 100 Kts
do you pull the yoke as soon as you bank 60?
Thank you it’s so easy in a DA40
What airspeed did you maintain? BTW a good aerobatic pilot could easily spun it in.
That was great
This is kinda off topic, I'm just curious? What camera mount do you use on your wings?
Sorry if I missed it - what's the airspeed during these turns? Thanks!
Specific airspeed?? Just at or below Va?
What's the difference between the emergency descent/ steep spiral landing and the Sarajevo/ combat landing?
I am having an issue with keeping my point during a steep spiral. What is the best way to correct that?
Thanks good teacheing
Sick!
Thanks for watching!
Is this a spiral instability?
Jason did u land with flaps 10 only..??
Anderson Danice looks like a 30
Hey Jason! My instructor taught me full flap emergency descent... Staying below vfe ofcourse . What are your thoughts on full flap descents?
They're needed in turbulent air. Even Vno is not the best idea with MOD to SEV turbulence. You will still drop relatively quickly.
Nice video Jason. Just a question, do you think side slip would be as efficient to descent quickly? Thanks
***** Thats another way to do it aswell, what I meant was flying cross controlled, bank with aileron and opposite rudder
FoxHotel Lima The point of the spiral is that you're already above your landing spot and have committed to it. Say you lose an engine and there's a perfect area of flat land / low grass in close vicinity. A spiral will let you keep that area in sight while analyzing the best way to perform your emergency landing on it. Of course side slips are effective to descend quickly, you can easily get 1000+ fpm with a side slip. In an emergency you might even deploy a side slip after doing the spirals if you have the intended touchdown point in front of you but you're still a bit too high (in that case you must put the airplane down), so you'd slip it to make the landing.
You banked it 60 degrees to start and then made comment that you were in a 30 degree bank. When did you make the reduction and why? What changed would you make in your steep spiral if there was a cross wind during the descent?
why dont use flap when spiral
What was your speed while descending? How to avoid spinning?
Not saying this is universal or what he uses, but I know a lot of 172 pilots use around 90. Also, as long as your airspeed is good and you’re staying coordinated you shouldn’t have to worry about spinning. Now granted, under increased load factor (pulling excessive G’s) you can cause the airplane to stall at a higher airspeed (accelerated stall). But in my opinion you have to be putting some over excessive back pressure and load factor on the wings for that to happen. All a spin is, is a stall aggravated with yaw. So basically an uncoordinated stall. That’s why when practicing them, you bring the airplane to a stall, then kick in full rudder in one direction (causing incoordination). So as long as airspeed is good and you’re coordinated you should not spin👍🏻
@@seankitchens1045 Thank you, sir..
What's your recommendation on airspeed for a 172RG? I've searched for flap setting recommendations for emergency decent (w/o structural damage) and most say extend gear but leave out flaps and let the Vfe be your speed limit. Since the 172RG has a Vfe of 162, Vlo of 138, and Vno 142, I'm thinking 60 degree bank with Vlo would be wise choice if gear is extended while entering the descent.
Please advise.
Hey Stephen, there is actually some guidance in the POH for an emergency descent in the Cutlass. It's listed under "Emergency Descent through Clouds". Personally I would follow that maneuver. In general in calls for extending the gear and setting the power to maintain 500-800 ft per min descent, trimmed out at 80 knots. For me, if space was an issue I would consider extending some flap but that would depend on the situation you are in.
I most certainly would not be putting the aircraft into a steep bank at a high speed. That is a recipe for disaster. There is way to much that can get out of hand very quickly.
Hope this helps.
The main question was the use of flaps. Thanks for the time!
My training 40 years ago was full flap for emergency descent. Is that no longer taught?
Full flap at just above stall speed will put you into a stall no shacker,, quarter to a haft and don! stall..
Wow! I've been around flying for years and this is the first I've seen of that. Nicely done! :-)