My I ask when this happened? When was DnD formulated because I know Moorcock conceived of the struggle between law and chaos back in the late 60's. Maybe Anderson came up with the idea independently?
@@Brainstorm-Lore Poul Anderson's conceptualization of law and chaos was different than Moorcock's. Anderson first wrote about it (that I know of) in a novella in 1953, that in 1961 became the full length novel Three Hearts and Three Lions. Moorcock has mentioned in past interviews that Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, as well as The Broken Sword were important influences on his own fantasy stylings.
To be fair, he did also say it was inspired by Moorcock: "The initial treatment of "Law" and "Chaos" was inspired by Michael Moorcock’s treatment of good and evil in his "Elric" and other fantasy books written prior to 1970." - interview given with theonering (2000)
Gary changed his answers to the question of influences and the origins of D&D many times. Presumedly there was a pastiche of all fantasy that influenced Gary, Dave and the original war gamers-turned-roleplayers in the late 60s and early 70s. I’m betting that Dave Arneson had far more influence on what was to become D&D than is commonly attributed.
The best thing about Moorcock's multiverse is that it's simple. No convoluted backstory, no constant stream of entities that appear out of nowhere to threaten it, no 'what if this character was that', just Law, Chaos, Eternal Champion, and Cosmic Balance.
It is the basic simplicity of the concept that makes it works so well. Ultimately in every story the Champin is not striving for the totality of the extremes - good or bad, law or chaos - but a stability that takes from both sides. This basic concept, allows the stories for each character to unfold naturally, without the need for massive explanation - and thereby usually contradiction.
I read these back in the 80's. Such good stories. The team up was interesting as well. My favorite Fritz Leiber story is the one with the time soldier and telepathic demonic looking hounds.
I got into Moorcock and his books a few months back. I wanted a different take on Sword and Sorcery and he didn't disappoint. Elric was a brooding, complex character and his stories in the omnibus had me on the edge of my seat. Thanks for the vid. I hope you do more for this series.
I was hooked after reading the Corum trilogy…absolute genius.No going on quests and meeting the usual dwarves,elves,wizards,dragons..this is grown up stuff.
4:05 I would point out that Dukes of Hell is not a chaos specific title, for example Lady Miggea of Law is regarded as a Duchess of Hell in at least one book
After having read (and re-read) most of the books related to the Eternal Champion, I've speculated that the Eternal Champion is not the "champion" of the Cosmic Balance but of humanity. As the most powerful of mankind's champions, he appears only during the gravest of circumstances. Humanity cannot live under absolute law or chaos and thrives best when the balance is (somewhat) stable. Thus he and the Balance share the same ends. I started thinking about this after reading the John Daker-led books and The Sailor on the Seas of Fate. Disclaimer: I like my theory so I haven't gone out of my way to listen to interviews or read articles about Moorcock that would definitively disprove my interpretation.
Fantastic video! I've been a Moorcock fan for most of my life. I bought a copy of The Weird of the White Wolf in the late 70's. I read anything I could by him after that. I wish I could find the Michael Kane trilogy books. Those are pretty scarce!
I've only read the core Elric stories, both Corum and Hawkmoon series and the Erekose/Urlik Skarsol novels and his Michael Kane novels (an obvious nod to E R Burroughs, John Carter..). I love them all but I would have to say my favourite book is Phoenix in Obsidian and my favourite EC is Dorian Hawkmoon, closely followed by Elric , Corum, then Erekose and Michael Kane. The Hawkmoon and Corum books are superior to the Elric books only due to the fact they are written as novels (albeit very short ones), not as collections of short stories.
Read possibly every book he wrote. Catching up with Elric atm. The Alternative History of the 20th Century is bazaar, was last series read 2 or 3 decades ago.
I own a 15 volume set with pretty much all the EC stuff, I had stacks of the paperbacks before that. Some incarnations of the EC are better than others IMO, I lean towards Elric, Erekose, Corum, Hawkmoon, Kane etc...the pulpy stuff I suppose.
I cant see how the eternal champion ever fights for chaos except Gaynor the damned. Even Elric won for law in the end and then got killed. Cornelius was a bad one I didnt read about him I just hurd about him. I didnt know the eternal companion was used more then once per champion I guess I was mistaken I thought only one each.Thanks for the VERY informitive video and have a good day. I think about Gaynor they call him a brother sometimes they hate and pity him and I think in some novels its ok for him and them all at the end they join into one I am prity sure hes one. But it is vaige sometimes about the champion so he never gets oblivion like he wants but Peace with the other incarnations. There's different talk about the conjuction of the million spheres or final conjuntion and then its over for that multiverse a new one I guess starts I dont know. Sometimes the writters do not cover everything but he did alot for D&D with chaos and neutrality astral plain and many other things I thank him.😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊.
I have a huge collection of his books, still missing a few but I am thinking about selling them. My nieces and nephew are not interested in my collection so thinking about possibly unloading them. Anyone in Dallas texas looking for books to buy?
Love the Eternal Champion stuff - read it all in high school in the 80’s and am currently re-reading the Elric stories. (My understanding is that the Law vs. Chaos in D&D came from Three Hearts and Three Lions rather than Moorcock, though I’m not sure how you’d prove it either way.)
"Yet has only started to gain recognition in the states recently", you say , speaking of Moorcock. 😂😂😂 Good video , thumbs up, but when you discover something is not when everyone else discovers it.
Gygax credits Poul Anderson with the alignment system of law and chaos, in D&D, not Moorcock
My I ask when this happened? When was DnD formulated because I know Moorcock conceived of the struggle between law and chaos back in the late 60's. Maybe Anderson came up with the idea independently?
@@Brainstorm-Lore Poul Anderson's conceptualization of law and chaos was different than Moorcock's. Anderson first wrote about it (that I know of) in a novella in 1953, that in 1961 became the full length novel Three Hearts and Three Lions. Moorcock has mentioned in past interviews that Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, as well as The Broken Sword were important influences on his own fantasy stylings.
@@paulmears5330 Ah, well thank you for the correction.
To be fair, he did also say it was inspired by Moorcock:
"The initial treatment of "Law" and "Chaos" was inspired by Michael Moorcock’s treatment of good and evil in his "Elric" and other fantasy books written prior to 1970."
- interview given with theonering (2000)
Gary changed his answers to the question of influences and the origins of D&D many times. Presumedly there was a pastiche of all fantasy that influenced Gary, Dave and the original war gamers-turned-roleplayers in the late 60s and early 70s. I’m betting that Dave Arneson had far more influence on what was to become D&D than is commonly attributed.
The best thing about Moorcock's multiverse is that it's simple. No convoluted backstory, no constant stream of entities that appear out of nowhere to threaten it, no 'what if this character was that', just Law, Chaos, Eternal Champion, and Cosmic Balance.
"what if Superman was gay?" "what if Batman was a worm?"
And honest weird one I saw was "what if flash has to continuously run?". It's... Boring
Basically, moorcock took campbell’s hero with a thousand faces and made it real.
MM hadn't read Camobell but took Frazer's GOLDEN BOUGH and Graves's WHITE GODDESS for his inspiration.
Which is what nearly all mytho-heroic stories do. Kinda the point.
Academics: "Yeah, only so Campbell's theory may be considered real..."
@@crisoliveira2644 Campell is now revealed asa faker who modifried eviidence.
It is the basic simplicity of the concept that makes it works so well. Ultimately in every story the Champin is not striving for the totality of the extremes - good or bad, law or chaos - but a stability that takes from both sides.
This basic concept, allows the stories for each character to unfold naturally, without the need for massive explanation - and thereby usually contradiction.
Blood and Souls for Arioch!
(Someone had to say it.)
Michael Moorcock’s books were huge in the 70’s and 80’s in the US. I grew up reading them.
Yeah, he was huge at that time. The current culture seems to think nothing existed until they discovered it.
Highly dependent upon geography and socioeconomics.
I've known three others, IRL, who have ever even heard of the man or his stories.
I read these back in the 80's. Such good stories. The team up was interesting as well. My favorite Fritz Leiber story is the one with the time soldier and telepathic demonic looking hounds.
I got into Moorcock and his books a few months back. I wanted a different take on Sword and Sorcery and he didn't disappoint. Elric was a brooding, complex character and his stories in the omnibus had me on the edge of my seat. Thanks for the vid. I hope you do more for this series.
Moorcock is the creator of the Genre's name Swords and Sorcery
Everything else that influences modern fantasy media feels like it comes from here
Moorcock even more than Tolkien inspired the fantasy I enjoy.
I was hooked after reading the Corum trilogy…absolute genius.No going on quests and meeting the usual dwarves,elves,wizards,dragons..this is grown up stuff.
Very good!
As a Moorcock fanboy I say, you hit the nail on the head.
4:05 I would point out that Dukes of Hell is not a chaos specific title, for example Lady Miggea of Law is regarded as a Duchess of Hell in at least one book
Moorcock is heavy rock/heavy metal 101. From Deep Purple to Hawkwind to Blue Oyster Cult to Blind Guardian.
After having read (and re-read) most of the books related to the Eternal Champion, I've speculated that the Eternal Champion is not the "champion" of the Cosmic Balance but of humanity. As the most powerful of mankind's champions, he appears only during the gravest of circumstances. Humanity cannot live under absolute law or chaos and thrives best when the balance is (somewhat) stable. Thus he and the Balance share the same ends. I started thinking about this after reading the John Daker-led books and The Sailor on the Seas of Fate. Disclaimer: I like my theory so I haven't gone out of my way to listen to interviews or read articles about Moorcock that would definitively disprove my interpretation.
I share and have shared your opinion. The champion was the champion of humanity.
I agree. This is pretty much revealed as the truth in The Quest for Tanelorn, though not explicitly stated.
Well what about the nonhuman heroes?
Fantastic video! I've been a Moorcock fan for most of my life. I bought a copy of The Weird of the White Wolf in the late 70's. I read anything I could by him after that. I wish I could find the Michael Kane trilogy books. Those are pretty scarce!
Cool vid, has made me watch more and now I really dig your channel, cheers dude
This video is so good. Wish it was available when I was younger and getting into his work.
Corum is the best Eternal Champion :))
Love Corum !
Such a cool character !
I've only read the core Elric stories, both Corum and Hawkmoon series and the Erekose/Urlik Skarsol novels and his Michael Kane novels (an obvious nod to E R Burroughs, John Carter..). I love them all but I would have to say my favourite book is Phoenix in Obsidian and my favourite EC is Dorian Hawkmoon, closely followed by Elric , Corum, then Erekose and Michael Kane. The Hawkmoon and Corum books are superior to the Elric books only due to the fact they are written as novels (albeit very short ones), not as collections of short stories.
Most Elric books are novels!
Read possibly every book he wrote. Catching up with Elric atm. The Alternative History of the 20th Century is bazaar, was last series read 2 or 3 decades ago.
I own a 15 volume set with pretty much all the EC stuff, I had stacks of the paperbacks before that.
Some incarnations of the EC are better than others IMO, I lean towards Elric, Erekose, Corum, Hawkmoon, Kane etc...the pulpy stuff I suppose.
Tanelorn sounds a lot like Sigil from D&D Planescape.
GG took his material from Tolkien, Leiber and Moorcock mostly.
I cant see how the eternal champion ever fights for chaos except Gaynor the damned. Even Elric won for law in the end and then got killed. Cornelius was a bad one I didnt read about him I just hurd about him. I didnt know the eternal companion was used more then once per champion I guess I was mistaken I thought only one each.Thanks for the VERY informitive video and have a good day. I think about Gaynor they call him a brother sometimes they hate and pity him and I think in some novels its ok for him and them all at the end they join into one I am prity sure hes one. But it is vaige sometimes about the champion so he never gets oblivion like he wants but Peace with the other incarnations. There's different talk about the conjuction of the million spheres or final conjuntion and then its over for that multiverse a new one I guess starts I dont know. Sometimes the writters do not cover everything but he did alot for D&D with chaos and neutrality astral plain and many other things I thank him.😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊.
I don't blame the chaaos gods for being mad at elric
The Dark Souls character basically
I have a huge collection of his books, still missing a few but I am thinking about selling them. My nieces and nephew are not interested in my collection so thinking about possibly unloading them. Anyone in Dallas texas looking for books to buy?
Love the Eternal Champion stuff - read it all in high school in the 80’s and am currently re-reading the Elric stories. (My understanding is that the Law vs. Chaos in D&D came from Three Hearts and Three Lions rather than Moorcock, though I’m not sure how you’d prove it either way.)
See above.Both took the terms from Milton but applied them differently.
I’m glad you addressed his porn name.
That's it , I'm downloading an an elric audiobook
Basically Elden Ring's Lore
Which graphic novel is that battle scene (11.45) taken from? Definitely want to acquire that one
Elric: The Balance Lost. Art is pretty good but it's by Boom! studio so the writing quality is not the best.
"Yet has only started to gain recognition in the states recently", you say , speaking of Moorcock. 😂😂😂 Good video , thumbs up, but when you discover something is not when everyone else discovers it.
Pro tip: never start an essay with your own ad. Cheesy AF. No respect for that. Plug your shit after you've proven your worth listening to.
That's a fair point. Thank you for the advice.