After more than 50 years as a Mahler devotee, I don't think I have come across anything written about him by anyone who actually knew him that would indicate anything resembling insanity. He often could be difficult, temperamental, demanding and rather superstitious, but also frequently good humored, kind and generous, not to mention a superb manager and organizer. The only thing insane about him was the level of his genius, accompanied by the strong work ethic that his modest socioeconomic background required of him to achieve what he did in his relatively short lifetime.
Ha, when you mentioned the "mini-series of three" in your closing statement, I could not but think "L'Allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato". :) Does that not fit nicely? Of course, I would be hard pressed to tell if the "insanity" approximates "l'Allegro" or rather, "il Penseroso", and vice versa. Musical insanity can be pretty jolly. ;)
Absolutely agree with your comments on Chopin, so often dismissed as a composer of pretty, decorative, drawing-room fluff. I'd go so far as to suggest that his music belongs with Beethoven and Wagner as one f the most innovative and influential composers of the 19th-century. But you have to look beyond the crowd-pleasing works to fully appreciate his genius. Try the A minor Mazurka, op. 17, no. 4 (in the hushed, "transcendental" performance by Moravec, if possible) and remind yourself that this work was written in 1833. LR
Every time I listen to the opening of the Schubert 8th, I think that this was opening the door to full on romaniticism. And I think it somewhat frightened him, and might have some bearing on not wanting to complete the symphony. I am struck by the similarity between the first few notes of the 8th and 9th, albeit in different keys. The 9th almost exhibiting a return to the classical sanity that he eschewed in the 8th, with that mysterious, burgeooning romanticism.
Although it is a coincidence that Chopin appears after Brahms on your list, this order reminded me that Brahms is the author of his own edition of Chopin's works. In the 19th century, Brahms was one of the few Germans to recognise Chopin's genius. I think there were three, actually two and Austrinak: Schumann, Brahms and Schenker. Speaking of insanity, Schenker mentioned Chopin in his list of 11 musical geniuses. He also included Domenico Scarlatti. And yet he claimed that his list contained only German composers. Can you guess why?
That is what I forgot to put down ravel is sexy and sometimes frightening but always in good taste. The end of bolero for example is also somewhat frighting. @@charlieclark983
I have the feeling that in your first two videos of this series, you emphasized the personality over the music, and I miss that here. For me, Beethoven and especially Mahler belonged to the Crazies. Granted: Mahler's Sixth Symphony is a perfect synthesis of EXTREME emotional intensity with perfect form. But I don't "get" the form of the Fifth Symphony at all. I could do without the overlong Scherzo before the Adagietto very easily. And then Beethoven's Ninth: if the Finale isn't a political manifesto, I don't know what is!
Mahler's Sixth is his most formally conventional symphony. You need to expand your notion of what form is, and give composers credit for creating original forms arising from each work's unique content. The Fifth is an excellent example--a perfectly balanced tripartite organism in which the scherzo acts as a fulcrum between the outer parts, each of which features a slow movement provides thematic material for the ensuring allegro, with the whole edifice united through shared motives and themes. And calling the scherzo "overlong" doesn't make it so.
@@DavesClassicalGuideThank you for devoting so much attention to my comment - in particular for your analysis of Mahler 5! I have been composing since 1956 and have been studying literary scholarship almost as long and still have no notion of what form is - I guess I am form deaf.
I think Sibelius was less popular outside the English-speaking world because of Theodore Adorno's essay "Glosse über Sibelius" in which he heavily discredited the finnish composer. He even said that he (Sibelius) was only capable of dirtying the music sheets (in Italian "imbrattatore di spartiti" - I don't know how to trsanslate it) without writing any relevant music. What an arrogance!
Dave, I love your channel, and I particularly enjoyed this mini-series. Your amount of knowledge is mind-boggling. Question, would you consider doing a list centered on female composers, critics, and/or conductors for women's history month?
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Yep, Mahler and Beethoven really do have to top this list. That's why we love them, right?
Yep the perfect combination & a lot of my favourites here
@@Warp75Mine too.
After more than 50 years as a Mahler devotee, I don't think I have come across anything written about him by anyone who actually knew him that would indicate anything resembling insanity. He often could be difficult, temperamental, demanding and rather superstitious, but also frequently good humored, kind and generous, not to mention a superb manager and organizer. The only thing insane about him was the level of his genius, accompanied by the strong work ethic that his modest socioeconomic background required of him to achieve what he did in his relatively short lifetime.
These are, more or less, my favourite composers, encompassing all our profundities and our joys.
Shostakovich and Prokofiev must be included in a fourth episode in this series.
Ha, when you mentioned the "mini-series of three" in your closing statement, I could not but think "L'Allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato". :) Does that not fit nicely? Of course, I would be hard pressed to tell if the "insanity" approximates "l'Allegro" or rather, "il Penseroso", and vice versa. Musical insanity can be pretty jolly. ;)
Absolutely agree with your comments on Chopin, so often dismissed as a composer of pretty, decorative, drawing-room fluff. I'd go so far as to suggest that his music belongs with Beethoven and Wagner as one f the most innovative and influential composers of the 19th-century. But you have to look beyond the crowd-pleasing works to fully appreciate his genius. Try the A minor Mazurka, op. 17, no. 4 (in the hushed, "transcendental" performance by Moravec, if possible) and remind yourself that this work was written in 1833. LR
So where is his insanity?
Every time I listen to the opening of the Schubert 8th, I think that this was opening the door to full on romaniticism. And I think it somewhat frightened him, and might have some bearing on not wanting to complete the symphony. I am struck by the similarity between the first few notes of the 8th and 9th, albeit in different keys. The 9th almost exhibiting a return to the classical sanity that he eschewed in the 8th, with that mysterious, burgeooning romanticism.
That's such a fascinating observation. Thank you for sharing.
Although it is a coincidence that Chopin appears after Brahms on your list, this order reminded me that Brahms is the author of his own edition of Chopin's works. In the 19th century, Brahms was one of the few Germans to recognise Chopin's genius. I think there were three, actually two and Austrinak: Schumann, Brahms and Schenker.
Speaking of insanity, Schenker mentioned Chopin in his list of 11 musical geniuses. He also included Domenico Scarlatti. And yet he claimed that his list contained only German composers. Can you guess why?
Mahler is my favourite composer followed closely behind by Bruckner
Verdi actually didn't pass the entrance exam at Milano conservatory!
"Beethoven was a Mozart on steroids" 😂
What about Schumann with his bipolar Eusebius and Florestan alters?
He was definitely leaning more towards the crazy side...
Schumann was in a previous video.
I would say Ravel balanced sanity with insanity sexy music but never in bad taste.
Ditto. Except Gaspard de la Nuit, and parts of Miroirs, are frightening, and not sexy. Gaspard should scare the Bejeezus out of a listener.
That is what I forgot to put down ravel is sexy and sometimes frightening but always in good taste. The end of bolero for example is also somewhat frighting. @@charlieclark983
I have the feeling that in your first two videos of this series, you emphasized the personality over the music, and I miss that here. For me, Beethoven and especially Mahler belonged to the Crazies. Granted: Mahler's Sixth Symphony is a perfect synthesis of EXTREME emotional intensity with perfect form. But I don't "get" the form of the Fifth Symphony at all. I could do without the overlong Scherzo before the Adagietto very easily. And then Beethoven's Ninth: if the Finale isn't a political manifesto, I don't know what is!
Mahler's Sixth is his most formally conventional symphony. You need to expand your notion of what form is, and give composers credit for creating original forms arising from each work's unique content. The Fifth is an excellent example--a perfectly balanced tripartite organism in which the scherzo acts as a fulcrum between the outer parts, each of which features a slow movement provides thematic material for the ensuring allegro, with the whole edifice united through shared motives and themes. And calling the scherzo "overlong" doesn't make it so.
@@DavesClassicalGuideThank you for devoting so much attention to my comment - in particular for your analysis of Mahler 5! I have been composing since 1956 and have been studying literary scholarship almost as long and still have no notion of what form is - I guess I am form deaf.
Anyone who thinks Mahler's symphonies are formless masses does not know the Sixth.
Or any of the other Symphonies, for that matter.
An unsurprisingly short shortlist (I would add C.P.E. for being so healthily unpredictable)
I think Sibelius was less popular outside the English-speaking world because of Theodore Adorno's essay "Glosse über Sibelius" in which he heavily discredited the finnish composer. He even said that he (Sibelius) was only capable of dirtying the music sheets (in Italian "imbrattatore di spartiti" - I don't know how to trsanslate it) without writing any relevant music. What an arrogance!
I agree, but seriously, how many people read Adorno, in any language?
Dave, I love your channel, and I particularly enjoyed this mini-series. Your amount of knowledge is mind-boggling. Question, would you consider doing a list centered on female composers, critics, and/or conductors for women's history month?
No, I would not. I think it's best to talk about great music and new recordings irrespective of the sex of the composer.
I wonder which category would Rachmaninoff and Shostakovich belong to
Same for Scriabin
@@thenoblegnuwildebeest3625 Scriabin was in previous video.
@@laurentcompagna6166 Ah, I'd only seen this one and the "Healthy and Sane" one. Was a bit confused after reading your comment initially.
Category would have to be "started sad, ended OK"