How does the absence of an operational APU (Auxiliary Power Unit) on an aircraft affect its ability to undergo de-icing procedures and ensure safe operations in wintry conditions?
The pilot should not rely on their equipment 100% because it could fail at any time, for whatever reason..they should rely on their 5 senses while the plane is on the ground before takeoff.
The plane left one engine running because the APU wasn't working, so they could not de-ice. If they try to de-ice with an engine running, the engine will suck in the de-icing fluid and create a toxic smell which the ac unit will fill the cabin with.
@@doremefasolateedaThat is a bad attitude. Equipment failure is why everything in an aircraft has redundant systems. Your senses, while valuable, are fallible, too.
Never understood why people get extremely frustrated when there’s delays due to to weather or fixing something on the plane when all the airline is doing is making sure it’s safe for passengers to fly which is a good thing and I always make sure to thank the employees after a delay since they are only looking out for us passengers
@@JimBaker-f6r yea I understand being a bit irritated that you won’t make it on time. I’ve seen grown people older than me act like children being told no when there’s a delay even saw a couple assault a flight attendant since we had to get off the plane due to a technical issue and they refused and then started fighting
Unless they make you wait six hours on the runway without going back to the terminal. Then I'm annoyed that they wouldn't let us off and instead made us sit for hours. I agree with the not taking off. Just annoyed we couldn't get off. They're not supposed to hold you more than two hours on the plane. They did six.
Their is one factor here that is missing. Air traffic kept the planes on the ground too long, for whatever reason. De-iced planes should be the priority for immediate take off.
You'd think the controllers would have some involvement - they know who's been sitting there and for how long. Like hey guys it's snowing and you've been there half an hour. Just sayin'
At Air Canada Jazz, the ramp agents are required to watch this episode as part of de-icing training. One of my flying instructors was flying for Voyageur Airways at the time and flew into Dryden the day before the crash and within a week, many small Canadian airports contracted de-icing equipment because for smaller planes like the Beech 1900 the pilots would just brush the snow off the wings with brooms. At Voyageur Airways their sales grew significantly in 1989 because many people were scared to fly on Air Ontario.
Do you think the other airlines truly didn’t know about the degree of danger icing can cause? Or was it something they thought they could save some money on? Just curious since you said they quickly contracted for de-icing after this incident.
@@I_SuperHiro_I De-icing has been done since the 1960s commericially. There are records of it being done in WW2 too, but very rudimentary methods like hot water (which is one of the worst de-icing methods). I think its been pretty well-known and documented that anything that disrupts or obstructs the flow of air over the wings is dangerous. I just dont know if they fully understood the degree till even in the 1990s. There are some records of Pilots using the airflow from airplanes infront of them in the cue during cold weather to fling off any ice build up. There have been unfortunately a few accidents resulting from Ice build up in various scenarios and thats why its heavily regulated, and heavily structured in the instances where its required. For example, dont quote me on this, but I think if a plane gets de-iced, and then for whatever reason sits in the cue to take-off for any more than 30 mins, theyre required to exit the cue and get de-iced again if the weather stayed the same. Basically to sum up your question, airlines knew it existed and did have de-icing methods in place, but they didnt fully understand the significance of it, the severity of icing if done incorrectly or under certain circumstances. They also just didnt have the proper infrastructure in place in terms of flight school placing the foundations for understanding how to fly in cold weather, airlines not having proper procedures or the option to forgo necessary de-icing in favour of other cheaper methods/cutting corners. This also could include physical infrastructure like not all airports having that equipment at all, or up-to-date equipment. Also flying governing bodies with a build up of knowledge and seriousness of the issue. What I can tell you is that there shouldnt be any accidents related to ice going forward so long as everything put in place is followed. If youve watched Green Dot Aviation or Mentour Pilot, youve heard of the swiss cheese theory. There are a lot of pieces of swiss cheese in place in modern flying to ensure no accident results from ice build up. Next time you fly in the winter in Canada or anywhere else, fly safe knowing there are a ton of things in place to make sure you get home safe due to accidents like this one. These people unfortunately lost their lives, but they made an everlasting impression on the flying industry and their deaths werent in vain.
@@I_SuperHiro_I The aviation industry at that time did not know that ice on the wings even as thick as sandpaper could significantly decrease lift during takeoff, they were only concerned with larger amounts of ice. At remote airports the planes would only be there for like 30 minutes and pilots had brushed the snow off the wings with brooms just before takeoff countless times without any issues. But at major airports there was de-icing equipment.
Traveled on a small eight person plane years ago where the pilot brought out a glass coffee urn with hot water and poured it on the wings saying, “ deicing Qualicum style”. ( Qualicum Beach BC)
I have been on a few flights in the 1980s (likely Boeing 727 or Boeing 767) where I have looked out the window to see the wings covered with half an inch to an inch of heavy snow, and the airplane was never de-iced. Well, we didn't crash on takeoff, but it was pretty eerie to see that from the cabin. I think this risky operation in snow and ice weather happened more frequently than we imagine; it's remarkable there weren't more crashes from iced wings.
32:47 Damn! This incident is perfectly summed up in the following 30-45 seconds, with the 3 statements: the Narrator, the Flight Attendent revealing what Air Ontario really cared about, and the final nail in the coffin coming next at: 33:08 "I came to the conclusion [...] that there were a lot of other hands on those throttles, pushing those throttles forward." Of course, the Pilot ultimately still wears part of the blame, as he was in control of stopping this Flight, but only the tiniest part possible... Under those horrendous circumstances, that Pilot has still done so much more to protest, defend the people under his care, do the right thing, than the average person would have! Whatever people love to believe, everyone but a few rare exceptions (and everyone is Biased into believing that they ARE the exception) wouldn't have complained one bit & gone through with the Flight when put under this kind of pressure and especially when taking orders, which makes people feel like they are not responsible for their actions & don't have any choice but to obey, effectively having their own Critical Thinking & Judgement and their Will severely impaired/reduced, as was so beautifully shown by the Milgram Experiment (well... beautifully may be the right word here...) on Obedience to Authority Figures. In the end, even though Rationally, the Pilot shoulders a very small part of the blame, Humanly & Pragmatically, with everything pushing so hard against him and being put in the almost impossible situation of either going through with the Flight, praying nothing goes wrong, including not having forgotten about any other aggravating factor, on a Jet that was still very new and unfamiliar to him, or of staying his ground to a point that would have probably seemed unreasonable to most, and cancelled the Flight until the proper Equipment (to start the Engine) was flown in to allow for a de-icing, because the weather wouldn't have improved faster than it takes for the Equipment to arrive, with the consequences of having all the Passengers miss their connecting Flight, ruin their plans, forcing the company to lodge and feed them until the next Flight, all at a great cost (& it would have been rightfully so), knowing that he would lose his Job for sure in the process... That Pilot can't reasonably be faulted for taking the decision he went with... The blame lay squarely on the shoulders of Air Ontario and their thirst for Profit over Safety. In most other situations, I'm sure that this Pilot would have cancelled the Flight & forced the Company to listen to Reason, but in this particular case, the deck was too heavily stacked against him, especially with the fact that he was forced into a Hot Refuel, prohibiting de-icing, being so isolated and with an incoming Snow & Freezing Rain Storm that had started and was rapidly becoming worse, adding immense time pressure. Of note, he also was unaware of the real weather forecast, so he didn't know anything about the severity of the situation, being Freezing Rain, other than what he could visually observe... He might have asked or checked, but it was still too late in the sequence of events to allow him to make a better decision. Oh, and a final, but damning Element, is how even if the plane had been de-iced when the Pilot wanted, it wouldn't even have made a difference since the De-Icing Fluid Type I was inadequate and would have stopped being effective while waiting for the Sesna to Land... This Investigation had a truly amazingly positive impact with its findings, recommendations, bringing lots of changes that greatly improved Security in Cold Weather conditions!
Exactly. I never worry if there are delays due to weather. Chill down people. As a matter of fact, I never worry if there are delays. Does anyone understand how plane delays occur. Mechanical issues. Weather-related delays. Flight crew delays (they can only legally fly within a certain timeline). We are experiencing a shortage of flight crews in Canada. I'd rather be delayed that wind up in an accident.
I love to fly. But nowadays I fly so rarely that the last time I flew, about a year ago, my flight was cancelled at 3 am (in Atlanta which was a horrible airport) , after we had already boarded. Due to no crew. I wasn’t angry. I just needed a smoke. I but yeah it’s ridiculous for anyone to be angry about flight delays due to weather or mechanical issues. People that get angry about that kind of thing reek of pure entitlement
Really I wouldn't want to be on a plane that has issues or in bad weather conditions i rather be late than be dead because the plane smashed into the ground because of maintenance or weather issues.
@@carlseiz1266 Yes! 100%!!! But like, even crew issues like what happened to me. Maybe they finally get a crew together. At 3 am!!! 🙄😴. Flown in from wherever. How reliable is that crew? They aren’t paid til plane is in motion. At least that’s my latest understanding. Unless things have changed rect., Specifically I recall the story of a young woman copilot, she was under the weather. They were fatigued. Plane Stalled. Reacted opposite. Nose up. I think over Brooklyn ? Somewhere New York. Air carrier was a contract carrier for continental I think. I remember she had flown like a thousand miles from west coast ish just to take the flight and her salary was only like 15k . They were fatigued. Aircraft stalled. Pulled up and up when they should’ve nosed down to gain speed. Broke sterile cockpit upon landing because of fatigue and poor improper training. Tragic. But my point is yeah people should just stfu and not be angry for flight delays regardless of the issue.
@@ajp4860Colgan Air 3407 is the one you’re thinking of 😎 Bombardier Q400 stalled out over Buffalo, both pilot and copilot were fatigued and the lady copilot had the beginnings of a head cold.
I live in Canada I would avoid traveling in winter if I can I seen snow reach my waste I can only imagine the stress those planes have from -35c what do you think ?
And look how they overdramatize that scene!! Lol Got him sitting there looking like a serial killer in those handcuffs and he probably committed a white collar crime lol
A problem seems to exist for jets that have engines to the rear of the plane and Type II deicer: if the ice is supposed to blow off the wings using Type II deicer...where are you blowing all that ice? To the back engines? I think that the Type of deicer used depends on the type of plane.
Type 1 fluid is used to remove the snow/ice from the airplane on the ground using heat and pressure. The purpose of type 2, which has been largely replaced by type 4 fluid, is to be applied to the airplane after the type 1 fluid has been used to prevent the buildup of ice/snow for a limited time. The snow/ice is gone, so the only thing blowing off the wings on takeoff is the fluid itself, which is not a concern. You are correct that the type of fluid used depends on the aircraft, but only due to its rotation speed on takeoff, not location of its engines. Type 2/4 is only to be used on aircraft that rotate above 100 knots.
There is one crash that happened in 1991 where the ice broke off the wings damaging and shutting down both engines midair on an md-81. Here is a piece of Wikipedia article about this crash. Scandinavian Airlines System Flight 751 was a regularly scheduled Scandinavian Airlines passenger flight from Stockholm, Sweden, to Warsaw, Poland, via Copenhagen, Denmark. On 27 December 1991, a McDonnell Douglas MD-81 operating the flight, registration OY-KHO, piloted by Danish Captain Stefan G. Rasmussen (44) and Swedish first officer Ulf Cedermark (34), both experienced pilots with 8,000 and 3,000 flight hours, respectively, was forced to make an emergency landing in a field near Gottröra, Sweden. Ice had collected on the wings' inner roots (close to the fuselage) before takeoff, broke off, and was ingested into the engines as the aircraft became airborne on takeoff, ultimately resulting in the failure of both engines. All 129 passengers and crew aboard survived.
10:58 "when we started hitting the trees i knew something was wrong." Wow, a genius!! 😅😂🤣😂😅 To be fair the poor guy was probably in shock, but it sounded funny.
Yeah I can't imagine how scary that'd have been. Imagine, being really low and thinking, hmm...we're kind of low, but probably normal. Then all of a sudden you start clipping trees. That's when it'll set in.
It amazes me how greedy airlines are when the entire source of their income resides in customers arriving safely. I'd think a reputation for good aircraft safety records would be better than some delays.
We should pay for our tickets after disembarking. Maybe airlines would be more safety conscious. In Boeing's case, a plane's purchase price should be paid only after ten years of safe flying. Boeing would be bankrupt tomorrow as they deserve.
How come this didn’t mention if the investigation involved speaking to whoever the captain was speaking to on the phone at Air Ontario? Shouldn’t they have shed light on that conversation?
1:04 They can't say "the right people never got the warning." In January, 1982, Air Florida flight 90 crashed moments after take off into the Potomac River. A contributing factor in that crash was that the plane hadn't been de-iced for awhile before receiving its takeoff clearance from the ATC. In December 1985, Arrow Air flight 1285 had a nearly identical crash to this one in that it had ice buildup on its wings before takeoff and couldn't get airborne. There was PLENTY of warning in the form of past crashes!
Would make plane very heavy. But they should put cameras on out side of plane so pilots and see engines, landing gear and wings inside cockpits. Cameras are small enough now
We have people on the ground who check those things out for us. If we're doing an engine start, a marshaller is keeping an eye on the engines to make sure everything goes smoothly. If there's risk of icing, someone in a de-icing truck goes up, and closely inspects the wings to make sure there's no ice
What’s amazing is both these pilots knew what they were up against, and they went against better judgment anyway and took off. They should have had the plane de-iced again before taking off, or cancelled the flight. It would be better off to have angry passengers instead of dead ones. Of course as the video said on another note that even if they were they still could have had the same problem if there was a hold up on the runway. The easy way to solve that is if that’s the case than ground all flights until it’s safe for flights to takeoff. It’s better to have angry passengers over this, instead of dead ones. In conclusion both the airport and the pilots were at fault.
💯 someone commented that we need electromagnetic highways so we can reach insane speeds instead of flying. Why can’t north america figure out that rail is the answer?
Yep that’s the episode I am remembering. They’re not supposed to sit more than 20 minutes after deicing for the obvious reasons. More ice will accumulate lol so what’s the point of deicing if you’re going to sit around for an hour afterwards in heavy precipitation. 🙄
Some additional conclusions: It seems this aircraft type is less then ideal in cold regions since it takes very little ice to degrade it's lift characteristics. It seems that the choice to de-ice is subjective, and therfore sensors and / or cameras should aid in this area, identifying a no-go warnings, even as the plane is approaching V1 = Takeoff Decision Speed, so pilots are not the only one's responsible for grounding the plane. What also could be done is provide covered taxi-ways and waiting areas for planes in bad weather, or, somehow covering the wings until it's ready to take off. Also, if the wings could be somehow shaken or flexed before takeoff, as part of a pre-flight checklist, it would ensure no ice.
A person that's inside the plane should not have to be requesting deicing! That should be the job of those outside the plane and that should just be automatic after a plane has been sitting there more than even just 20 minutes in a freaking snow storm!
Whenever one of these air disaster docs opens with a scene depicting an aircraft on a snowey runway, it's a safe bet the final answer is ice. The entire video as they are asking 'was it too heavy'? Was it a faulty APU? Was it a hot refuel? The entire time I'm responding (to no one) nope, it's ice. nope, it's ice.
I don't know how they unload the fuel on the when they're on the ground but that's a waste when they're in the are I would think that they would have something on the ground to be able to save that fuel if not what a damn waste
Amazing . Only after a crash and hundreds of people die. This changes are made. The aircraft that crashed in Canada was so bad it burned out the black box. The long wait time in Canada caused more ice to build up on the wings. The cold ice and perhaps maybe even the jet fuel was freezing so bad it could not flow good into the engine. No excuse why the APU was not fixed. Canada would not de-ice the wings of the plane with the aircraft eniges running . That obviously would have put the De-Icing technicians lives in danger. So finally Air Ontario went out of business. This cheap company only cared about saving money. Rather buy parts for the aircraft. Like a brand new APU. If the wings were de-iced it might have prevented this accident . Then it happened again. Now they use : Type 4 De-icing that prevent ice build up for up to one hour. Now pilots know how long they will be required to wait. Before being required to take off. If they only have to wait thirty minutes this would be ok. Since the new Type #4 De-Icing can last for one hour. Then up on take off the Type #4 De-Icing comes off the wings. The Pilots of Canada Air Ontaio could have cared about the passengers and the crew. This airline only cared about saving money. So as a result , Air Ontario went out of business. They probably were sued for negligence.
I suffer from 2 mental health illnesse so,it prevents me from flying. Watching this videos doesn't help either. So sad, I will never be able to travel to others countries, besides Mexico since i only live 5 miles from the border of Mexico.
I don't blame the pilot in the 1st crash at all!! Management is solely to blame for the lost lives on that fight. A pilot should *never* have to attempt to do their job while balancing the lives of everyone aboard under such restrictions & conditions. Greed & mismanagement is to blame. Not the captain!! Then, to have it happen again, adding insult to injury (& death). What a shame! The way the company undercut safety in the use of the Fokka airplane sure is just that, a fokka!
I've only watched halfway through... And as I watching I'm saying again and again.. There's no lift. There's Ice on the wings! (Let's see if I'm right.)
I always love in these video re-creations how the cabin crew yells "grab your ankles" and the seats are far enough apart you could actually _do_ that; theres even _space_ shown between their head and the seat in front of them lol. In an ACTUAL AIRLINER (well, maybe not in first class, I wouldnt know) your face will be smooshed into the top 1/3 of the seat in front of you long before you get bent over, your neck will be bent back at a 30 degree angle right needing only a gentle touch to snap altogether and the only way you could grab your ankles is if you amputate your legs before you try the maneuver and have them already in hand.
9:47 he is telling the truth, I was the prisoner and I never did leave him but what he fails to mention is what he told mr after he took the cuffs off me, I’ll never forget it, he said : “Come with me if you wanna live.”
6:14 I am only six minutes into this video, so I hope this is explained later, but in heavy precipitation, isn’t the plane NOT supposed to sit more than 20 minutes after deicing? for obvious reasons. Maybe at this time that rule wasn’t in effect. 🤷♀️
Well, not everyone has their life under control. They don’t have Job they like, good family and friends. They are not happy. It shows on their behavior. Having not being raised by good parents is also a factor for their actions.
I feel like having a de-icing machine on the runway instead of the gate would be common knowledge but the more of these videos I watch the more it seems like a lot of the people involved (airline/plane builders/etc) are missing that.
Judges get far more respect than they deserve. When a law judge was put on charge, I knew that the investigation and report would be substandard. They have these huge egos, but are among the LAZIEST people you will come across. Why not just appoint a chef? Or a real estate agent? Law court listening has NOTHING to do with aviation.
PLEASE raise the volume on these, when posting. We can always LOWER it. But we cannot RAISE it beyond the max settings, and I can't hear it from my kitchen or bed, across the room. Thank you.
Agreed. I observe that is a common pronunciation outside the US. When I hear it, I always reply, "did you learn that in shool"? (i.e. school) It usually gets a laugh.
Here's an ideea: what if the manufacturers come up with a method to de-ice the wings via the aircraft interiors of the wings? Like built something inside the wings that generates heat when needed to de-ice the wings?
OMG ME TOO!!! Lol, AND the narrator sounded like HE was saying the same word when describing the plane… I was like….what is going on here in this episode? When did they start cussing?! lol I’m so glad I’m not the only one. I swear I rewinded 6 times before I realized she was saying “fluffy” lol
This happened in 1989, you are bound to see the same episode more than once. Get over it. Do you complain when watching an episode of COPS or Seinfeld or MASH? LOL
I work with Canada. I have no choice, i handle that territory. No need to get into specifics. I have been trying to get rid of that territory for years. Picture dealing with this type of thought process every day. I dread when a customer calls from Canada. Im never prepared for their idiocy.
How does the absence of an operational APU (Auxiliary Power Unit) on an aircraft affect its ability to undergo de-icing procedures and ensure safe operations in wintry conditions?
The pilot should not rely on their equipment 100% because it could fail at any time, for whatever reason..they should rely on their 5 senses while the plane is on the ground before takeoff.
The plane left one engine running because the APU wasn't working, so they could not de-ice. If they try to de-ice with an engine running, the engine will suck in the de-icing fluid and create a toxic smell which the ac unit will fill the cabin with.
@@lennyjobin4751 Wow..! Ok..I understand..this is good information..
@@doremefasolateedaThat is a bad attitude. Equipment failure is why everything in an aircraft has redundant systems. Your senses, while valuable, are fallible, too.
@@lennyjobin4751The OP knows this, since they’re the ones who uploaded it. ;)
Never understood why people get extremely frustrated when there’s delays due to to weather or fixing something on the plane when all the airline is doing is making sure it’s safe for passengers to fly which is a good thing and I always make sure to thank the employees after a delay since they are only looking out for us passengers
Good point
Love that idea
@@JimBaker-f6r yea I understand being a bit irritated that you won’t make it on time. I’ve seen grown people older than me act like children being told no when there’s a delay even saw a couple assault a flight attendant since we had to get off the plane due to a technical issue and they refused and then started fighting
Because that's how vile the human race is. People want what they want, when they want it, cheapest possible, high-quality, all impossible!
@Killshot15 are you freaking kidding me??! Grown ass people acting like that?? They should be banned from ever flying any airline again!
Delay due to mechanic or weather will never make me mad at any airline, I'd rather been late of 1 day than late forever...
No kidding!
Better to lose a flight on a bad day then lose your life!
Unless they make you wait six hours on the runway without going back to the terminal. Then I'm annoyed that they wouldn't let us off and instead made us sit for hours. I agree with the not taking off. Just annoyed we couldn't get off. They're not supposed to hold you more than two hours on the plane. They did six.
Better to be late, then to be “the late…”. Yes.
My ex boyfriend was a Captain for United. He often made the remark that “ You are only as good as your last landing “… very true.
I believe that is a general sentiment amongst all aviators. But yeah.
Their is one factor here that is missing. Air traffic kept the planes on the ground too long, for whatever reason. De-iced planes should be the priority for immediate take off.
You'd think the controllers would have some involvement - they know who's been sitting there and for how long. Like hey guys it's snowing and you've been there half an hour. Just sayin'
If possible, why not place the de-icing equipment nearer the runway so the gap in time isn't as large
@@peac2916I heard from another air crash investigation report that they are doing that now in most of the bigger airports.
Get the planes off the ground soon after de-iceing. What's wrong with air traffic controllers?????
@@lizhjelmeseth5485 They are morons. I don't trust ATC, because they are neither engineers or pilots.
At Air Canada Jazz, the ramp agents are required to watch this episode as part of de-icing training.
One of my flying instructors was flying for Voyageur Airways at the time and flew into Dryden the day before the crash and within a week, many small Canadian airports contracted de-icing equipment because for smaller planes like the Beech 1900 the pilots would just brush the snow off the wings with brooms. At Voyageur Airways their sales grew significantly in 1989 because many people were scared to fly on Air Ontario.
Do you think the other airlines truly didn’t know about the degree of danger icing can cause? Or was it something they thought they could save some money on? Just curious since you said they quickly contracted for de-icing after this incident.
@@I_SuperHiro_I De-icing has been done since the 1960s commericially. There are records of it being done in WW2 too, but very rudimentary methods like hot water (which is one of the worst de-icing methods). I think its been pretty well-known and documented that anything that disrupts or obstructs the flow of air over the wings is dangerous. I just dont know if they fully understood the degree till even in the 1990s. There are some records of Pilots using the airflow from airplanes infront of them in the cue during cold weather to fling off any ice build up. There have been unfortunately a few accidents resulting from Ice build up in various scenarios and thats why its heavily regulated, and heavily structured in the instances where its required.
For example, dont quote me on this, but I think if a plane gets de-iced, and then for whatever reason sits in the cue to take-off for any more than 30 mins, theyre required to exit the cue and get de-iced again if the weather stayed the same.
Basically to sum up your question, airlines knew it existed and did have de-icing methods in place, but they didnt fully understand the significance of it, the severity of icing if done incorrectly or under certain circumstances. They also just didnt have the proper infrastructure in place in terms of flight school placing the foundations for understanding how to fly in cold weather, airlines not having proper procedures or the option to forgo necessary de-icing in favour of other cheaper methods/cutting corners. This also could include physical infrastructure like not all airports having that equipment at all, or up-to-date equipment. Also flying governing bodies with a build up of knowledge and seriousness of the issue. What I can tell you is that there shouldnt be any accidents related to ice going forward so long as everything put in place is followed. If youve watched Green Dot Aviation or Mentour Pilot, youve heard of the swiss cheese theory. There are a lot of pieces of swiss cheese in place in modern flying to ensure no accident results from ice build up. Next time you fly in the winter in Canada or anywhere else, fly safe knowing there are a ton of things in place to make sure you get home safe due to accidents like this one. These people unfortunately lost their lives, but they made an everlasting impression on the flying industry and their deaths werent in vain.
@@I_SuperHiro_I The aviation industry at that time did not know that ice on the wings even as thick as sandpaper could significantly decrease lift during takeoff, they were only concerned with larger amounts of ice. At remote airports the planes would only be there for like 30 minutes and pilots had brushed the snow off the wings with brooms just before takeoff countless times without any issues. But at major airports there was de-icing equipment.
Traveled on a small eight person plane years ago where the pilot brought out a glass coffee urn with hot water and poured it on the wings saying, “ deicing Qualicum style”. ( Qualicum Beach BC)
2:33 As my dad would say, " Shedule?! Where did you learn that? _In shool?_ "
🇨🇦
Whoever put people in a plane without a functioning APU is responsible for this.
How you have mystery smoke with each takeoff and just keep flying the plane lol
wow that flight attendant is still really pretty all those years later, she must have been a stunner in her prime
I noticed that too!❤
I have been on a few flights in the 1980s (likely Boeing 727 or Boeing 767) where I have looked out the window to see the wings covered with half an inch to an inch of heavy snow, and the airplane was never de-iced. Well, we didn't crash on takeoff, but it was pretty eerie to see that from the cabin. I think this risky operation in snow and ice weather happened more frequently than we imagine; it's remarkable there weren't more crashes from iced wings.
46:36 "we've learned all the lessons" is a dangerous attitude. NEVER stop learning
32:47 Damn! This incident is perfectly summed up in the following 30-45 seconds, with the 3 statements: the Narrator, the Flight Attendent revealing what Air Ontario really cared about, and the final nail in the coffin coming next at:
33:08 "I came to the conclusion [...] that there were a lot of other hands on those throttles, pushing those throttles forward."
Of course, the Pilot ultimately still wears part of the blame, as he was in control of stopping this Flight, but only the tiniest part possible...
Under those horrendous circumstances, that Pilot has still done so much more to protest, defend the people under his care, do the right thing, than the average person would have!
Whatever people love to believe, everyone but a few rare exceptions (and everyone is Biased into believing that they ARE the exception) wouldn't have complained one bit & gone through with the Flight when put under this kind of pressure and especially when taking orders, which makes people feel like they are not responsible for their actions & don't have any choice but to obey, effectively having their own Critical Thinking & Judgement and their Will severely impaired/reduced, as was so beautifully shown by the Milgram Experiment (well... beautifully may be the right word here...) on Obedience to Authority Figures.
In the end, even though Rationally, the Pilot shoulders a very small part of the blame, Humanly & Pragmatically, with everything pushing so hard against him and being put in the almost impossible situation of either going through with the Flight, praying nothing goes wrong, including not having forgotten about any other aggravating factor, on a Jet that was still very new and unfamiliar to him, or of staying his ground to a point that would have probably seemed unreasonable to most, and cancelled the Flight until the proper Equipment (to start the Engine) was flown in to allow for a de-icing, because the weather wouldn't have improved faster than it takes for the Equipment to arrive, with the consequences of having all the Passengers miss their connecting Flight, ruin their plans, forcing the company to lodge and feed them until the next Flight, all at a great cost (& it would have been rightfully so), knowing that he would lose his Job for sure in the process...
That Pilot can't reasonably be faulted for taking the decision he went with...
The blame lay squarely on the shoulders of Air Ontario and their thirst for Profit over Safety.
In most other situations, I'm sure that this Pilot would have cancelled the Flight & forced the Company to listen to Reason, but in this particular case, the deck was too heavily stacked against him, especially with the fact that he was forced into a Hot Refuel, prohibiting de-icing, being so isolated and with an incoming Snow & Freezing Rain Storm that had started and was rapidly becoming worse, adding immense time pressure.
Of note, he also was unaware of the real weather forecast, so he didn't know anything about the severity of the situation, being Freezing Rain, other than what he could visually observe...
He might have asked or checked, but it was still too late in the sequence of events to allow him to make a better decision.
Oh, and a final, but damning Element, is how even if the plane had been de-iced when the Pilot wanted, it wouldn't even have made a difference since the De-Icing Fluid Type I was inadequate and would have stopped being effective while waiting for the Sesna to Land...
This Investigation had a truly amazingly positive impact with its findings, recommendations, bringing lots of changes that greatly improved Security in Cold Weather conditions!
Exactly. I never worry if there are delays due to weather. Chill down people.
As a matter of fact, I never worry if there are delays. Does anyone understand how plane delays occur.
Mechanical issues.
Weather-related delays.
Flight crew delays (they can only legally fly within a certain timeline).
We are experiencing a shortage of flight crews in Canada.
I'd rather be delayed that wind up in an accident.
Stop the commercials RUclips. It's annoying. Put them at beginning of end. Not thru the video
"Positioning" totally destroys the continuity of videos!!
Yes especially if its the same ads and you cant skip them
With the Canadian flight it's AMAZING how the wrong circumstances at the wrong time cause a crash😪
I love to fly. But nowadays I fly so rarely that the last time I flew, about a year ago, my flight was cancelled at 3 am (in Atlanta which was a horrible airport) , after we had already boarded. Due to no crew. I wasn’t angry. I just needed a smoke. I but yeah it’s ridiculous for anyone to be angry about flight delays due to weather or mechanical issues. People that get angry about that kind of thing reek of pure entitlement
Really I wouldn't want to be on a plane that has issues or in bad weather conditions i rather be late than be dead because the plane smashed into the ground because of maintenance or weather issues.
@@carlseiz1266 Yes! 100%!!! But like, even crew issues like what happened to me. Maybe they finally get a crew together. At 3 am!!! 🙄😴. Flown in from wherever. How reliable is that crew? They aren’t paid til plane is in motion. At least that’s my latest understanding. Unless things have changed rect., Specifically I recall the story of a young woman copilot, she was under the weather. They were fatigued. Plane Stalled. Reacted opposite. Nose up. I think over Brooklyn ? Somewhere New York. Air carrier was a contract carrier for continental I think. I remember she had flown like a thousand miles from west coast ish just to take the flight and her salary was only like 15k . They were fatigued. Aircraft stalled. Pulled up and up when they should’ve nosed down to gain speed. Broke sterile cockpit upon landing because of fatigue and poor improper training. Tragic.
But my point is yeah people should just stfu and not be angry for flight delays regardless of the issue.
If you fly much get some nicotine gum and keep it handy for times like that.
@@ajp4860Colgan Air 3407 is the one you’re thinking of 😎 Bombardier Q400 stalled out over Buffalo, both pilot and copilot were fatigued and the lady copilot had the beginnings of a head cold.
It's mind boggling that people fly in planes during bad weather. If a peice of tape can bring down a plane, then so can ice.
I feel I can relate to the captains personality and frustrations.
Thank you, flight attendant for calling out to passengers. A heroine.
I live in Canada I would avoid traveling in winter if I can I seen snow reach my waste I can only imagine the stress those planes have from -35c what do you think ?
Yeah, because being delayed on your flight is so much worse than crashing and dying.
I remember this happening. I lived not far from there. I knew the town ((now city) well. It was horrifying. ♥️🇨🇦
The captain got caught in a bureaucratic/poor equipment catch 22.
The flight attendant is beautiful. And the actress who played her is absolutely gorgeous. Wow.
Safety regulations are written in blood.
My buddy was the “criminal” on that plane 🤣🤣
And look how they overdramatize that scene!! Lol
Got him sitting there looking like a serial killer in those handcuffs and he probably committed a white collar crime lol
Is it better to risk your life than to be late?
I would rather be late than be dead
A problem seems to exist for jets that have engines to the rear of the plane and Type II deicer: if the ice is supposed to blow off the wings using Type II deicer...where are you blowing all that ice? To the back engines? I think that the Type of deicer used depends on the type of plane.
Type 1 fluid is used to remove the snow/ice from the airplane on the ground using heat and pressure. The purpose of type 2, which has been largely replaced by type 4 fluid, is to be applied to the airplane after the type 1 fluid has been used to prevent the buildup of ice/snow for a limited time. The snow/ice is gone, so the only thing blowing off the wings on takeoff is the fluid itself, which is not a concern. You are correct that the type of fluid used depends on the aircraft, but only due to its rotation speed on takeoff, not location of its engines. Type 2/4 is only to be used on aircraft that rotate above 100 knots.
The ice is gone before the plane even starts moving.
There is one crash that happened in 1991 where the ice broke off the wings damaging and shutting down both engines midair on an md-81. Here is a piece of Wikipedia article about this crash.
Scandinavian Airlines System Flight 751 was a regularly scheduled Scandinavian Airlines passenger flight from Stockholm, Sweden, to Warsaw, Poland, via Copenhagen, Denmark. On 27 December 1991, a McDonnell Douglas MD-81 operating the flight, registration OY-KHO, piloted by Danish Captain Stefan G. Rasmussen (44) and Swedish first officer Ulf Cedermark (34), both experienced pilots with 8,000 and 3,000 flight hours, respectively, was forced to make an emergency landing in a field near Gottröra, Sweden. Ice had collected on the wings' inner roots (close to the fuselage) before takeoff, broke off, and was ingested into the engines as the aircraft became airborne on takeoff, ultimately resulting in the failure of both engines. All 129 passengers and crew aboard survived.
I,ve never seen birds of any kind flying in a snowstorm. Maybe we,ll figure this out some day. Not likely though.
Why would they take off in a blizzard so wrong
10:58 "when we started hitting the trees i knew something was wrong."
Wow, a genius!! 😅😂🤣😂😅 To be fair the poor guy was probably in shock, but it sounded funny.
Yeah I can't imagine how scary that'd have been. Imagine, being really low and thinking, hmm...we're kind of low, but probably normal. Then all of a sudden you start clipping trees. That's when it'll set in.
@@larryroyovitz7829right
It amazes me how greedy airlines are when the entire source of their income resides in customers arriving safely. I'd think a reputation for good aircraft safety records would be better than some delays.
We should pay for our tickets after disembarking. Maybe airlines would be more safety conscious. In Boeing's case, a plane's purchase price should be paid only after ten years of safe flying. Boeing would be bankrupt tomorrow as they deserve.
How come this didn’t mention if the investigation involved speaking to whoever the captain was speaking to on the phone at Air Ontario? Shouldn’t they have shed light on that conversation?
I wish they had gone deeper into that conversation as well. Maybe the company forced that individual to sign an NDA to protect the company?
1:04 They can't say "the right people never got the warning." In January, 1982, Air Florida flight 90 crashed moments after take off into the Potomac River. A contributing factor in that crash was that the plane hadn't been de-iced for awhile before receiving its takeoff clearance from the ATC.
In December 1985, Arrow Air flight 1285 had a nearly identical crash to this one in that it had ice buildup on its wings before takeoff and couldn't get airborne.
There was PLENTY of warning in the form of past crashes!
Would make plane very heavy.
But they should put cameras on out side of plane so pilots and see engines, landing gear and wings inside cockpits. Cameras are small enough now
they do captain obvious
@@SpartacusErectuswhich planes?
@@SpartacusErectusno, they don't.
@@SpartacusErectusthey don't
We have people on the ground who check those things out for us. If we're doing an engine start, a marshaller is keeping an eye on the engines to make sure everything goes smoothly. If there's risk of icing, someone in a de-icing truck goes up, and closely inspects the wings to make sure there's no ice
Why are runways not double the length so if a plane can’t take off it can at least try to stop or you know ..
These videos are really really good. There is really good production value, and the actors they hire look a lot like the guys they're portraying.
What’s amazing is both these pilots knew what they were up against, and they went against better judgment anyway and took off. They should have had the plane de-iced again before taking off, or cancelled the flight. It would be better off to have angry passengers instead of dead ones. Of course as the video said on another note that even if they were they still could have had the same problem if there was a hold up on the runway. The easy way to solve that is if that’s the case than ground all flights until it’s safe for flights to takeoff. It’s better to have angry passengers over this, instead of dead ones. In conclusion both the airport and the pilots were at fault.
Over reliance on air travel no rapid rail. When is America going to get rapid rail? It could be the answer to bad weather.
💯 someone commented that we need electromagnetic highways so we can reach insane speeds instead of flying. Why can’t north america figure out that rail is the answer?
Trains crash too. Mayday: Air Disaster even did an episode on the deadly Via Rail crash.
Same thing happened in Colorado in 1987. Continental Flight 1713 due to ice on wings.
Yep that’s the episode I am remembering. They’re not supposed to sit more than 20 minutes after deicing for the obvious reasons. More ice will accumulate lol so what’s the point of deicing if you’re going to sit around for an hour afterwards in heavy precipitation. 🙄
Some additional conclusions: It seems this aircraft type is less then ideal in cold regions since it takes very little ice to degrade it's lift characteristics. It seems that the choice to de-ice is subjective, and therfore sensors and / or cameras should aid in this area, identifying a no-go warnings, even as the plane is approaching V1 = Takeoff Decision Speed, so pilots are not the only one's responsible for grounding the plane. What also could be done is provide covered taxi-ways and waiting areas for planes in bad weather, or, somehow covering the wings until it's ready to take off. Also, if the wings could be somehow shaken or flexed before takeoff, as part of a pre-flight checklist, it would ensure no ice.
Excellent vid.
A person that's inside the plane should not have to be requesting deicing! That should be the job of those outside the plane and that should just be automatic after a plane has been sitting there more than even just 20 minutes in a freaking snow storm!
Regardless, due to the inability to shut down the engines, they couldn't have de-iced.
@@larryroyovitz7829- De-icing is essential. It is not an option. If you need to de-ice, and you can’t, then you don’t go.
@@GH-oi2jf Umm...yeah, exactly. 🙄
Whenever one of these air disaster docs opens with a scene depicting an aircraft on a snowey runway, it's a safe bet the final answer is ice. The entire video as they are asking 'was it too heavy'? Was it a faulty APU? Was it a hot refuel? The entire time I'm responding (to no one) nope, it's ice. nope, it's ice.
But they were kind of related.
What about having special sensors in the top surface of the wings that can actually detect ice?
no by time i guess
@@pedrorodriguez230-e2u ❓
The right procedure in these conditions is to de-ice shortly before takeoff.
"Better late than never"
I don't know how they unload the fuel on the when they're on the ground but that's a waste when they're in the are I would think that they would have something on the ground to be able to save that fuel if not what a damn waste
did she say big f***ing white snow flakes lol
Its never one thing it seems.
Amazing . Only after a crash and hundreds of people die. This changes are made. The aircraft that crashed in Canada was so bad it burned out the black box. The long wait time in Canada caused more ice to build up on the wings. The cold ice and perhaps maybe even the jet fuel was freezing so bad it could not flow good into the engine. No excuse why the APU was not fixed. Canada would not de-ice the wings of the plane with the aircraft eniges running . That obviously would have put the De-Icing technicians lives in danger. So finally Air Ontario went out of business. This cheap company only cared about saving money. Rather buy parts for the aircraft. Like a brand new APU. If the wings were de-iced it might have prevented this accident . Then it happened again. Now they use : Type 4 De-icing that prevent ice build up for up to one hour. Now pilots know how long they will be required to wait. Before being required to take off. If they only have to wait thirty minutes this would be ok. Since the new Type #4 De-Icing can last for one hour. Then up on take off the Type #4 De-Icing comes off the wings. The Pilots of Canada Air Ontaio could have cared about the passengers and the crew. This airline only cared about saving money. So as a result , Air Ontario went out of business. They probably were sued for negligence.
Never knew Ontario had an airline before 😅
It became a part of Air Canada in 2000.
I suffer from 2 mental health illnesse so,it prevents me from flying. Watching this videos doesn't help either. So sad, I will never be able to travel to others countries, besides Mexico since i only live 5 miles from the border of Mexico.
What about on a nice cruise ship?
Queen Mary 2 ocean liner to Britain. Or maybe a scenic train trip across Canada.
Surely there are ways to get treatment for your issues. And in the meantime, as others have said, you can travel by land and sea.
My heart breaks for those pilots and the people who didn't make it. What an unnecessary tragedy simply because of "Company policy"!!
I don't blame the pilot in the 1st crash at all!! Management is solely to blame for the lost lives on that fight. A pilot should *never* have to attempt to do their job while balancing the lives of everyone aboard under such restrictions & conditions.
Greed & mismanagement is to blame. Not the captain!!
Then, to have it happen again, adding insult to injury (& death). What a shame!
The way the company undercut safety in the use of the Fokka airplane sure is just that, a fokka!
deep in the woods? 10:46 Didn't he say earlier that the plane crashed 950 meters from the runaway?
Highly experienced pilots!!! What happened???
19:20 *laughs in ACC*
Am I the only one thinking about how beautiful that actress is?
No, my god is she gorgeous. And the real flight attendant is hot as well in her older age.
Why fly in the snow
Because you have to be somewhere?
I've only watched halfway through... And as I watching I'm saying again and again.. There's no lift. There's Ice on the wings! (Let's see if I'm right.)
We don't talk about the way one looks like Fallon and the other like H.W. NO NO NO
Let’s see…. We’re taking off in a blizzard… and the last thing we look at in the investigation is icing on the wings…. Makes sense.
I always love in these video re-creations how the cabin crew yells "grab your ankles" and the seats are far enough apart you could actually _do_ that; theres even _space_ shown between their head and the seat in front of them lol. In an ACTUAL AIRLINER (well, maybe not in first class, I wouldnt know) your face will be smooshed into the top 1/3 of the seat in front of you long before you get bent over, your neck will be bent back at a 30 degree angle right needing only a gentle touch to snap altogether and the only way you could grab your ankles is if you amputate your legs before you try the maneuver and have them already in hand.
9:47 he is telling the truth, I was the prisoner and I never did leave him but what he fails to mention is what he told mr after he took the cuffs off me, I’ll never forget it, he said : “Come with me if you wanna live.”
Damn that flight actress is... ❤❤❤❤😂
6:14 I am only six minutes into this video, so I hope this is explained later, but in heavy precipitation, isn’t the plane NOT supposed to sit more than 20 minutes after deicing?
for obvious reasons. Maybe at this time that rule wasn’t in effect. 🤷♀️
This is on the airline. Period.
Well, not everyone has their life under control. They don’t have Job they like, good family and friends. They are not happy. It shows on their behavior. Having not being raised by good parents is also a factor for their actions.
David Bowie copilot
Ground control to major tom
I feel like having a de-icing machine on the runway instead of the gate would be common knowledge but the more of these videos I watch the more it seems like a lot of the people involved (airline/plane builders/etc) are missing that.
where is deicing?
Usually on top of a cake!!
I dunno man, maybe watch the whole episode before commenting?
Ten more passengers...on plane. Freezing rain..... worse by minutes, 1/2 hour snow/ice on wings.
That was a close one, shame they didnt raise the gear, might have made the difference. Not like they were useful anymore.
Judges get far more respect than they deserve. When a law judge was put on charge, I knew that the investigation and report would be substandard. They have these huge egos, but are among the LAZIEST people you will come across.
Why not just appoint a chef? Or a real estate agent? Law court listening has NOTHING to do with aviation.
AMEN!!!!! You have no idea how much I absolutely agree with you.
Most judges have huge egos, they’re arrogant and truly feel they are Demigods!
Delayed is not always the best. Jeopardy of vacations.
I am hearing a lot of excuses on why to put the passengers and plane at risk.
PLEASE raise the volume on these, when posting. We can always LOWER it. But we cannot RAISE it beyond the max settings, and I can't hear it from my kitchen or bed, across the room. Thank you.
Seems to me they worry to much about the schedule and not enough about the rest,,,,,,!,
What happened to type III?
For some reason, the pronunciation "shed yule" is like nails on a blackboard.
I was wondering if i was the only one that wanted to strangle that guy each time he mispronounced it.
Agreed. I observe that is a common pronunciation outside the US. When I hear it, I always reply, "did you learn that in shool"? (i.e. school) It usually gets a laugh.
Agree! I also can't stand "vee-hick-uhl."
@@JimBaker-f6rLive PD episodes that take place in the southern states, that's what I was reminded of. The officers always use this pronunciation. 🥲
@@JimBaker-f6r just curious, how do you think ‘vehicle’ should be pronounced?
I didn’t know Winona Ryder was a flight attendant too.
No one in this video looks anything like her!
That flight attendant is way better looking than Winona Ryder
Mayday mayday
Pan pan. Pan pan
What's the point in deicing aircraft on tarmac, just for a checkmark that it was done?
Here's an ideea: what if the manufacturers come up with a method to de-ice the wings via the aircraft interiors of the wings? Like built something inside the wings that generates heat when needed to de-ice the wings?
I misheard when the steward said big fluffy snowflakes 😀
OMG ME TOO!!! Lol, AND the narrator sounded like HE was saying the same word when describing the plane… I was like….what is going on here in this episode? When did they start cussing?! lol
I’m so glad I’m not the only one. I swear I rewinded 6 times before I realized she was saying “fluffy” lol
They’re spraying antifreeze all over the tarmac? That’s how they de-ice planes? 😳
This is a reupload
Is this show ALL reruns now
Been cancelled ?
@@palmereldrich it's apparently still running
This happened in 1989, you are bound to see the same episode more than once. Get over it. Do you complain when watching an episode of COPS or Seinfeld or MASH? LOL
@@ScarabChris I don't watch any of those
Relax dude , damn @@ScarabChris
Tombstone regulation. Very effective policy. Why not? It works in hospitals, and governments
24 people flying died.
Why is it okay to delay a flight after being deiced. It should be a direct path from the deice to take off
weather like this should ground all planes
Big fluffy white snow flakes didn't sound like fluffy
RIGHT!? And only a few seconds after I misheard “Fokker” at 2:04
APU not working.....
When I took off
I hate weather, it ruins picnics. Facts
I work with Canada. I have no choice, i handle that territory. No need to get into specifics. I have been trying to get rid of that territory for years. Picture dealing with this type of thought process every day. I dread when a customer calls from Canada. Im never prepared for their idiocy.
I don’t even stay in my car at the gas station.
“Chilling” consequences 😂