You Don't Need Room Treatment, Open Baffle Speakers Aren't Better, and Reviewers are Worthless?
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- Опубликовано: 11 окт 2024
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I have had poles of box speakers. The Magnepan blows all box speakers away. The Martin Logan speakers are really clear, but a little thin in tone, but with a great tube amp, they are better at tone. The Magnepan's are better, are best. Big speaker cabinets dont play loud, so they need a subwoofer. So speakers play loud & dont need a subwoofer. The Magnepan's have just the right amount of midrange. Midrange is all you want & need, screw deep bass. Most subwoofers, when the bass gets really low, you lose some volume. Great subs lose less volume at low frequencies. I wished that I never had a box speaker after listening to the Magnepans. This is not an opinion, this is a damn fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The best speakers that I have ever heard had 4 inch woofer & a port. First order crossover, or no crossover speakers are the best. Magnepan blows other speakers away.
@@myronhelton4441 very passionate. I heard someone say once that when you have magnepans you have to choose the music to fit the speaker. Instead of just having a speaker be good on all music. I’ve actually heard that from a few folks about how they handle a lot of acoustic stuff well but nothing with any dynamics. I’ll get those LRS in and see what they sound like. Thanks for watching
@@cheapaudioman I havent heard the Magnepans a whole lot, I am not totally sure of them. But I will tell you that I hate bright speakers. It takes piles of money to tame bright speakers down. My friend has plastic cabinet speakers. I hated the bright things, but bassy music they were fabulous. If the music wasnt bassy, the speakers had the thinnest crummiest bass on most cds. Paper speaker drivers arent so bright. So, I didnt like the speakers. I mainly only listen to 1971 & older music on cds & vinyl. Something digital was added in 1972. Two people told me digital was added on correcting the mistakes on the recording. Many people tell me digital was added in 1980. I can tell all 1972 & after albums dont sound as good. But YES -close to the edge in 1972, Alan Parsons- I robot 1977 are great on vinyl, but terrible on cd.. 1971 Santana Abraxas is great on vinyl, good on cd, after that, not so good. Cheap stereo stuff doesnt have the clearest sound, but I love cheap stereo stuff that has great tone. So I play around & hook up cheap equipment with good tone, like the old NAD 3020 cheap amp that people were crazy over, that is all burned out now. I love a tube pre amp, hooked up to a transistor amp. I may want a digital amp that runs cooler & may last longer. I love that subwoofer that looks like a water heater, but I dont really like subs. My nephew had a Carver tube cd player, but I didnt get to listen to it enough.
@@cheapaudioman I always hated bright Sony receivers. I bought my girlfriend a cheap Sony receiver that she would not let me have it, so I got one exactly like hers on Ebay. It was the only Sony receiver that I liked. Ot made my tweeters on my speakers tremendously less bright. So, all cheap equipment must be tested to know that it is good. But I have a theory about the great tone Sony receiver, it was built with better parts. Nelson Pass will talk to you if you call him. He carries piles of extra transistors, in case they quit making one. I have another theory of 4th order transistors sound best, but with some distortion. Another theory. Dolby noise reduction on cassettes hurts the highs. You are bertter off listening with the noise. CDs could off the highs in vinyl, you are better off with the hiss on vinyl.
You can't quite be an audioman if you've never experienced OB.. to clarify, Magnepans are planar speakers, not OB. Open baffle speakers are just one or more cone speakers on a board. They don't necessarily require a large space. They aren't necessarily bad around kids (vs heavy boxes on stands). Sealed or ported speakers are by definition, a crummy compromise... they drink power and sound muddy, add a tweeter, for boom/sizzle. Common sense and physics - - because of less back pressure, OB has the ability to reproduce music in a more realistic fashion than almost any other cabinet method. Remember cabinets don't and can't add energy to your speaker. They only absorb, funnel, reflect or filter that energy in an imperfect way to allow bass to propagate (and that takes much more power). That's in in a nutshell. If you want the cleanest most realistic midrange, vocals, and guitar (and often acceptable bass depending on your music) - - give open baffle a try. There are many small drivers that your can buy for that job. You can use practically any kind of wood and a $20 jigsaw to cut a hole in a matter of minutes. It's cheap.. go for it.
thats true but for open baffle.. the box is your room. so your room "absorb, funnel, reflect or filter". i actually agree that OB is better. but i dont hink the reasoning is solid.
@@boohoo5419 I was comparing a sealed box to an open baffle, disregarding any potential room conditions.
The comparison of any sealed (or ported ) cabinet will show massive affects on T/S parameters (electro / mechanical properties) .. especially behavior upon the woofer and possibly mid-range, depending on your speaker's design. in this regard, after effects of room coloration can be considered later, or not at all.
You make a good point that the room is going to make a difference in the performance of any speaker, and this is especially going to depend on speaker placement.
@@thr0nic Your instincts are absolutely correct - - that's another appeal to open baffle. It's just easier to do.
My recommendations would be pine plywood and the best jigsaw with a sharp blade you can find. That's pretty much all you need if you aren't shooting for perfect. The notion that you can't get quality low frequencies from an open baffle is a bit of a modern myth, and has certainly been perpetuated by generations of people who think of a loudspeaker as a sealed or ported cabinet. If you want to spend $100,000 on system - - in fact, you will very likely now get either a fully open baffle or hybrid open baffle system produced by any number of boutique manufacturers all across the planet. It's taken quite a few years to circle back to, they did more commonly in the 1930s. Partly because any design intended to filter or accentuate low frequencies comes with its own new set of problems. A wealth of education can be had, if you go to one of the HiEnd audio shows (I suggest the "Audiofest's" (now 3 happening in a year) and take tour of the systems. Almost 25% of the ultra high end are now open baffle. There are the mega tower --- 1000 watt solid state systems - - but they are somewhat of a relic of the 80s and 70s and are taking more of a backseat to low power tubes and horns as people rediscover the realistic midrange they produce. .
☝🏾This!
I have a hybrid pair. Base is box, miss open… & pair it with dual 12” OB subwoofer.
Pretty awesome.
& it was a kit for just $400 …
6’ into the room. (20x30’ room) divides the room into 3rds.
I think he presentation is definitely a little odd for an "Audioman", ut it's because of the concept of better . Open baffle, Electrostatic, Planar Magnetic, Bandpass, Folded Horn, etc are all different methods than can be used to achieve a result. Most people using Magnepan's etc are either way more enthralled by the mid and highs than turned off by the bass extension or have conceded that they will need a sub. It's a ll a matter of taste, better doesn't really exist.
I’ve run my $300 Magnepan MMG’s (think early LRS) on my $130 Aiyima T-9 using $90 no-name cables - sounds great! My Living Room is 12x16, w/ the stereo set up in the short direction.
I love how, right after this, Randy goes right into a long discussion on the various tricks of placing box speakers 😄
How did you manage to spend 90 bucks on no-name cables? 😂
@@dingdong2103 They're very nice no-name cables. Granted, they're not as purist as going to Home Depot and buying a few feet of lamp cord, but we can't all be Electrical Engineers.🤣
@@donde2k Regular 4mm2 wires are usually sufficient for a home setup. I like making my own RCA cables. Just buy nice looking connectors and 75ohm cordial or other respectable brand cable and solder them up. Very sweet looking cable where you can tailor the length exactly as you need it for 10-15 eur.
I have a pair of Spatial X4's and they're absolutely incredible. Plenty of bass with dual 12'' woofers, and with open baffle speakers the bass takes on a real role of its own. No boxy one-note bass, you can clearly hear the decay and texture of every bass note.
That is the quality that one looks for in a great speaker, for sure!
Another speaker design - a *fourth* type - beyond the 3 most common / well known speaker designs of: sealed/air suspension, ported/passive radiator, and open baffle - is mass loaded transmission line speakers. They are a box design - but when done right, they sound very much like open baffle - very clean, "quick" articulate, accurate bass, and open spacious and natural midrange. And they can do this with fewer and smaller drivers.
My MLTL-6 speakers uses a 6" woofer in a mass loaded transmission line cabinet - a medium sized stand mounted 2-way - is essentially flat in room to ~32Hz. They have an open and spacious sound stage, with utterly clear bass and midrange. The moving mass (Mms) of their 6" paper coned woofer is just 13.8 grams. So, the physics of this has lots of advantages, as you might expect.
Does spatial audio make a $500 pair of speakers?
@@NeilBlanchard hi. How big is this ML-TL cabinet? I am toying with the idea of building something that looks like the KEF blade but using 4 6” SB Acoustics or SEAS woofers mounted on the sides of a cabinet providing bass reinforcement for a full range.
The challenge I have is that the ML-TL for even for 2 6” woofers becomes quite large.
I'd love to audition the X4's. I'm happy with my Spatial M3 Sapphires, but I think the X4's might be a better fit for my 12 X 16 room. But 7.5K for the X4's is currently out of my league.
@@histubeness he needs competition at the lower price brackets
The room has a massive effect on the sound of a system. My living room system it sounds good, but when moved up into my golden ratio listening room it sounds absolutely incredible. I wasn't convinced how much the room mattered until I heard it for myself.
Yep. Must win lottery and build house around stereo. There's just nothing else for it.
@@NightFlight1973 good to see you have your priorities in order lol.
Absolutely agree, I spent all of Covid building sound studios in Los Angeles and learned a ton about how sound waves work, there is a reason the Beatles didn't record in some basement in England. I did the same thing as you JC. I was all set up in a room with one window all insulated walls in the back room of my house, it sounded flawless, Fucking Flawless. I moved speakers to and from to achieve what we refer to as the "golden ratio" and as humbly as I can say.... It was the best sound I have ever heard. A few years went by and my wife decided we needed to move closer to the front of the house, this room has 9 windows, yes 9. Try as I might, I cannot for the life of me achieve anything close to the perfection I had in that back room. Room treatment and speaker placement are crucial for a good sound. I have state of the art gear, I collect it, its literally all I do. However, it's all worthless if not "treated" right. I love Randy and watch him often but cannot figure out for the life of me why he does not recognize this. I actually asked him in a live feed what has he done for room treatment and he responded with "nothing'' and kinda downplayed it like it was snake oil or something. Any audio engineer can wax poetic about the effects of room treatment, I have seen it time and time again.
@@KillerKlipschAgreed. Literally nobody who has treated their room has ever said it doesn't make a huge difference, probably more than the speakers.
@@LiquidEyes100 Amen!
One thing about open baffles/dipoles is that they are generally quite easy to move. So yes, they need to be well out from the wall but when not in use, just tuck them in closer to the wall, just as you recommended for box speakers.
Great video! Not only you're "the cheapaudioman" but you have buckets of common sense and that is very welcome these days. Being gear obsessed can be a very stressing mental disorder like chasing a ghost instead on enjoying music, "love the one you have" and be happy with it!
He does have common sense and a witty sense of humor 🤣. He's more ruggedly handsome (emphasis on ruggedly). Sometimes he must comb his hair with a fire cracker, but Einstein did it too.
Just kidding Randy 😜
Keep em coming.
Thank you
The "Common Sense Audioman"
My LRS speakers are light and supper easy to move around. But Randy is absolutely right that practical matters often determine what's best. Every decision involves some trade offs.......
I love my open baffle speakers. I owned a pair of LRS for about a year and have recently upgraded to a pair of 1.7i (both used). I’ve also recently bought some tympanis that need work done.
They do have some placement issues but I find experimenting with them fun! Also most of the quirks you read about them on forums are exaggerated. They definitely don’t need as much power as everyone says they do.
The LRS lack bass due to their size and need a sub for augmentation (however sub integration isn’t as difficult as everyone says). The 1.7is on the other hand for most music wouldn’t need a sub augmenting them.
10:06 "We are gearheads." I think that is the open secret that almost all audiophiles resist admitting. Anyone who says it's "all about the music" doesn't really understand what motivates me and the overwhelming majority of people who read, watch, and contemplate HiFi beyond their initial purchase. You know who it's "all about the music" for? People who buy Bose and Sonos and never look back. That's just not me or any of my nerd buddies. Do I like music? Of course! But I like*equipment* a lot too. That's why I keep watching videos like this decades after I obtained a wonderful sounding audio system. It's also why i occasionally buy vinyl records that I can more easily listen to on a streaming streaming service. I can admit it. I like the *stuff*! I like playing with the stuff as much as I like just listening to music. That is the difference between an "audiophile" and a "music lover."
Well said and guilty as charged
Spot-on, and why I prefer to make as much as I can, rather than purchase pre-manufactured speakers/gear - large part of the satisfaction. For me, nearly equally about the music, and why I also created a small music studio, instruments/mics/mixer/PC/software/etc. It's fun to learn about, dive into, and get hands-on with things that interest us. I guess its 'gearheadedness'.
An audiophile uses the music for listening his gear.
A music lover uses his gear for listening his music.
This is the main difference.
I also think a person can go into "audiophile" mode and back out. Some people are both audiophiles AND music lovers. Sometimes you put audiophilia on hold for months or years and come back to it later. Sometimes you use recordings to analyze gear more than you do to enjoy music. It's not an all or nothing question. As for myself, I absolutely span the whole gamut. I listen to terrible recordings on badly conceived systems and love the music. At other times I listen to really well recorded and reproduced tracks that do nothing for me on the musical level. Luckily for me, most of my listening is somewhere in between those two extremes.
@@AndyBHome totally agree 👍. I have two systems. One is an "audiophile" set of gear. The other one is a vintage gear set. I love vintage audio material.
1968 JVC Nivico 5010l amplifier and 1976 Realistic STA-90 amplifier with 1968 Victor Nivico HE Series speakers. It does not sound "audiophile" at all but I really do enjoy listening music on it . The vintage vibe for listening music and the audiophile gear for analytical listening. I love both .
I have used box speakers most of my life. I currently have ported box bookshelf speakers, sealed floor standing box speakers and DIY open baffle speakers.
To my ear, open baffle sounds the best. They are just more open. In my case they pair very well with tube amps to provide an open holographic sound without a closed box sound.
They do require a lot of space. As a result, they are rarely used and therefore a poor choice for commercial speakers. They need to be out into the room at least 4 feet from the front wall.
They also are challenging for low bass. In my case I would definitely benefit with a pair of good subs to fill in below 50Hz.
They are great for DIY. It is easy as a novice to get great sound out of OB. It is much tougher to build an equally good sounding box speaker. Most will fail unless they simply assemble a kit.
People often forget about the extra cost of buying a platform when you get open baffle speakers. It’s a requirement. How else are you going to properly look down on all the box speaker people if you don’t have a good platform to stand on?
If you have OB speakers and box speakers, then the box speakers can be used as a platform if they are big enough. This cost applies only to owners of OB speakers only or a combo of OB and bookshelf ones.
😅
I try not to condescend to the little people who don’t have open baffle speakers. 🤪 The woofers on my Martin Logans are closed.
You could also use a high horse, if you have one.
Ha! Yep.
Thanks for the video Randy! I took placement seriously within the confines of my available space. Speakers are the same distance from the back and side facing walls. Also, they're pulled out from the back walls roughly 3 feet. They're adjusted to where the tweet is roughly on the level of my ears, and slightly toed in. I'm not sure how much impact this has had honestly, but I can say it sounds incredible. Center image is locked in, soundstage sounds wider than speaker placement...sometimes, and there is a subtle 3d component to it, meaning that some instruments sound closer than others. It has been a ton of fun, and has brought an entirely different dimension to my favorite songs.
You could have a great pair of open baffle speakers for $500 to play 100Hz up. Get some full range drivers from Audio Nirvana and stick them in a minamalist baffle placed on stands 4-5 feet from the front wall. Fill in below 100Hz with REL subs. You are done. You need good subs to fill in your $500 box speakers. The difference is your OB+good sub will compete well with $20k speakers. Your $500 box speakers will compete with 500 speakers.
Agree they are superior have built many, will add that alnico are most nuanced, also a neodymium ambient tweeters completes the sonic bliss 🎉
@@angelheart1129 I use Alnico drivers and love the sound. Mine are 60 yr old Coral drivers from Japan, so likely not as detailed as modern. Plenty for my ear. I use 18" pro drivers for sub woofers in separate U baffles. So simple but love the sound.
I think the reason why open baffle is not main stream is it requires a very large listening area and needs to be at least 3-4 feet from the wall. Also depending on the open baffle speakers, they can be very difficult to run on cheap electronics. With the enough space, acoustic room treatment, and quality electronics, open baffle speakers can create a spatial sound stage that conventional box speakers would have a very hard time to replicate.
RE: cheap electronics: this is also verified. Amps with a poor damping factor can easily lose control of a big woofer with no support from a box behind it. Bucking the back-EMF is one of the keys to tight low-end performance. Similarly, use of cheap, high-resistance speaker wire can ruin the damping of even the best quality power amps, and can make them sad, too. Don't made a sad amp, champ! Hardware-store #10-gauge will beat ultra-luxury, designer (99% marketing-driven) #16 gauge or even #12 gauge top-dollar speaker leads any day of the week.
I have two systems in my home, one open baffle in a dedicated listening space in my basement with home made acoustic treatment (Magnepan LRS, REL t7X, Denefrips Ares II, Schiit Freya+, Blusound Node, Fantasia PC1 modified Hafler 220H amp), The other, a box speaker in my living room (Hegel H95, CSS DIY 1TD, Audiolab CDT6000, Denon DP72L turntable, IFI Zen phono preamp). I love both! Where the basement setup shines is transparency and a unbelievable soundstage, the living room setup excels at dynamics and precise imaging. I did this after watching an episode of The Audiophiliac where if you have more than one system he recommended having two very different means of sound reproduction so you can appreciate what each brings to the listening experience. I want to give a shout out to all those that returned equipment as a lot of my purchases were open box which helped my bottom line immensely. Also thanks to the cheapaudioman for your insights about CSS speakers and helping me choose the right components for my son at college (Aiyima a07, Sony SS-cs5 speakers, Wiim Mini Airplay 2 Music Streamer) I got away with the whole package for less than $300.
As they were the first premium speakers I ever heard, the Magnapans were mindblowing. Later, I heard other high end speakers and they no longer were as elevated as they inititially were in my mind. But they're still really good.
I have to agree/ first time hearing Magnepan scan be revelatory
Its all a matter of taste.. like anything in hifi if well executed it sounds great. I love open baffles. I now prefer them over boxed. BUT, im fortunate, i have a dedicated room and can experiment to find the sweet spots, the right matching, and when all is in tune its magic. Great video sir!
I feel exactly the same. I used Ron's LOTS tutorial to place my open baffle speakers and man did that process work like a charm. My open baffles are pretty similar to yours actually. I'm using 2 Lii audio F15's and 2 W15's. Still waiting on my decware though.
@@JC-lk3oy nice!! Decware sounds great with the lii audio in open baffle. I enjoyed it very much.
I think I sent you pictures of my teakwood open Baffle before. I have the F15’S. also. I actually just sold the Zen triode, and replaced it with a Linear Tube Audio MZ2 preamp and a new pair of Quicksilver horn Monos ( 25 watts ). They really opened up the dynamics and sound stage. Also the F15’S are producing tremendous bass with the extra power. I’m a happy listener.
@@ronniecramer1252 sounds like a hell of a setup. I will say if you ever want bit more bass the W15's will absolutely give you a lot more extension. I don't think the F15's are missing too much down low on their own if you feed them some watts though. I expect to need those W15's a lot more when I move to the Decware.
@@JC-lk3oy I was using a Rel T/7x for the bass before. I’m still using it, but I now have the low pass turned all the way down to 35 hz. and the gain turned way down. I’m not sure if I really need it now. The difference in the bass from the F15’S was really amazing.
As far as open baffles, as well as panel speakers, I really think it depends what kind of music you enjoy listening to. Open baffle speakers are usually demoed with acoustic instrumental music or "girl with a guitar" style audiophile music. Unless they are monstronsities as far as size, in my experience they aren't going to stand up to the type of music I like to listen to, which tends to be rock and music with tons of layers. This is true of panel speakers as well. They are amazing for natural acoustic genres, but have to be very large to do complex dynamic layered music in my opinion.
I actually consider myself a "former gear head". I haven't changed my system in many years. I spent decades buying gear and figuring out what I like, but at this point I love how my system sounds and don't have an urge to change it. I just find videos about audio entertaining.
Harley-as a quad electro stats Owne r and overall,panel lover, this is very fair and sober comment.. I would also add that orchestral music lends itself to great box speakers.I can’t imagine using panel speakers for home theatre for example as well. And look, you can buy some great box speakers for acoustic jazz, non rock vocal, but nothing touches open panels for those genres-it’s just qualitatively an entirely different and realistic experience that few people experience so they don’t grasp. Maybe it’s better that way because as u suggest you really do need a separate listening room to max their poetical. On the other hand you cna get a superlatively experience at a near field desktop situation with superb monitors Pmc, Adam, focal, kali, and get out of here, genelac…..and a modest sized sub. But then again if you can tolerate earphones, you can easily put together a great listening experience for far less. And if you are really into rock, horns are hard to beat, JBS, klipschetc. For most tho, boxes will be best most versatile best and arguably the bets place to start.
Reason why panel speakers lack dynamics and sound thin is because the filaments have a tiny xmax. There are open baffle speakers with dynamics drivers and woofers that blow away some box speakers IMO. Also depends ALOT on the room of course
Open Baffles can sound amazing with rock or anything else. Especially live performances. I understand the skepticism because I used to feel the same way. High volume isn't a problem, think about it, you have sound coming out of both sides of each speaker. Chest pounding bass is not a problem either. Yes, they typically are wider across the front than other designs, but they're also not as deep or as heavy. They are demo'd with midrange heavy and vocal performances because that's where they shine above other designs. They give that "singer is in the room" vibe. Love em!
I call on the power of the 80/20 rule... Box speakers are fine for most people most of the time. For the 20% that listen critically and have occasion to hear dipole or bipole (maybe omni) speakers, the natural holographic 'magic' presentation is undeniable. So if a person chooses to persue great sound - dipole/bipole/omni (or crazy-expensive boxes that don't sound like boxes) will likely be the destination of their journey. They are not necessarily expensive (LXmini kit is around $600 from Madisound), but like any great speaker they can be. They don't necessarily need un-livable space requirements (ex. LXmini). There can be compromises - flat panels (e-stats and the like) have narrow dispersion patterns (small sweat-spot'), so better for dedicated single-seat rooms (same as most box speakers, hence cross-fire toe-in). Open-baffle bass does require moving more air than box subs, but they produce so much more texture, and with less fixture resonances, port noise/compression, back-pressure, distortion, etc. Once you elevate to open-baffle speakers, box subs sound broken (slow/compressed/muddy/dead). Randy, I'm as cheap as the next guy, but that doesn't change the truth of open-baffle magic. Each can ask themself if they're ok in the 80% without the magic, or will they pursue greatness - it's not for everyone.
Do open baffle speakers sound better? Well, with the right combination, yes. Two anecdotes:
When I was in high school I visited a high end audio store. They had a listening room with ribbon speakers that looked like room partitions. They were connected to massive monoblocks that could also work as MIG welders. They were demonstrating the system and turned up a vinyl LP from the "Fresh Air" series. The sound from those speakers was mesmerizing. I mean, it was like an out of body experience. Since then I've heard many a high end system with traditional, box speakers and none of them sounded like those ribbon speakers.
Last fall I visited a friend who is an engineer. He designed and built his own audio system. It has massive amplifiers resembling old school Mark Levinson gear, bass towers and two huge Infinity ribbon speakers (the only components he didn't build himself). I don't know how much those things were when they were new, but he said he paid $10,000 used and that was a steal for those ribbon speakers. He played me a tune with Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald and, if I closed my eyes, I cold swear they were right there in the room singing directly in front of me.
So, yeah. There really is something about ribbon speakers anyway. I hope to pick up a pair of Magnepan LRS pretty soon. That's what my friend the engineer recommended.
I was listening to the Hifi Podcast with Darren Myers of PS Audio and they mention that OB can go close to the sidewall because the thin panel creates a cardioid wave pattern. Bringing them close to the sidewall can help give you some extra room gain to offset the losses, as OB sidewall interaction is low, and sidewall gain is usually in the neighbourhood of 4dB with conventional box speakers.
I absolutely LOVE my open baffle speakers ! I run FOUR 15" speakers and three compression driver horns on each channel ! These are the first speakers that I could not hear (BOX EFFECT) of the speaker ! I have Zero regrets going to open baffles.
Boxes should be for shipping only IMHO. I tried everything over a 53 year period and my open baffles are the majic that I was looking for. Have a great day and enjoy the music!
I was researching room treatments and got a little overwhelmed. So I started with something that I knew I could do, and was free - I decluttered my listening space. Get everything you can out of the room, and if you can't get it out of the room, get as much to the sides as you can. In my case it definitely helped with imaging. And it's more relaxing listening to music with all that crap out of there.
Look for the Audioholics interview on the subject (RUclips). Best I have seen so far.
@@Projacked1 I checked out their video on understanding different types of room treatments - you're right - excellent thanks
my cheap used MMG magnepans are dope....I bought them for 500 bucks (CDN) just for the experience and they have been playing now for about 8 months in a 12x20 room. It is a wonderful experience and now I am getting ready to go down the road of different open baffle speakers, not just planar. plenty of bass, I did incorporate a sub but its not even necessary on most of the stuff I listen to. Lii audio f15 speakers next!
Just wanted to address box vs. dipole speaker. First of all, a well designed dipole WILL out perform a poorly designed box speaker. The converse, of course is true as well. You are correct that there are few (if any) examples of really cheap dipoles. But at higher price ranges, they can be quite competitive in terms of cost because cabinet design for sound can be quite costly.
Do dipoles sound better? Based on my experience, they can sound as good or better than any box speaker. The reasons why dipoles are not more common have to do with placement and design. Dipoles generally need to be around 3 feet from the back wall so buying a dipole limits where you can put that kind of speaker in your room. Dipole designs can also be less aesthetically pleasing than a box design. In general, a box speaker is much more like to fit into a modern living room where one does not have a dedicated listening room. I suspect we see fewer dipoles today because the market leans heavily towards the more versatile design and placement of box speakers and is not based on sound. No point in discussing sound quality if the WAF is low and the product is never coming into the house.
As for bass, a box will generate more bass from a smaller driver (or fewer drivers). Dipole fans will say that the tradeoff here is between quality and quantity.
Having material experience with speaker design and ownership of various designs I can say confidently:
1- I like both cabinet and open baffle design approaches and each have their engineering compromises
2- Woofer displacement (Bore/ stroke) and QTS are critical for open baffle speakers and this causes the speaker to be much larger
3- All speakers perform better pulled out from the front wall unless the crossover baffle step is specially designed to hug walls. That said Open Baffle speakers are more critical of less than 3ft between the baffle and front wall just due to math and lack of a cabinet (not getting into details here)
4- In a few of my rooms optimal placement of a box speaker and open baffle speaker tend to be within inches of each other so I would not say that Open Baffle speakers have to be further out into a room if optimal placement is the objective of either design approach.
5- Open baffle (not planer) can be faster and more articulate with less boom or cabinet resonance as there is no cabinet. That said I have owned a pair of open baffles within a rear brace and baffle resonance was very audible.
6- Well designed box speakers are my preference for aesthetic reasons as well as sound.
I play music on QUAD ESL 57 with 2 15 inch DIY open baffle subwoofers. One stereo amp drives all 4 speakers. The room is 12 x 18 feet. The speakers are very directional so stand next to the sidewalls. They are 3 feet from the front wall. They play music clean, lifelike with great bass. ❤❤❤
I have a pair of large DIY open baffle speakers so I can probably chime in:
Even very well designed boxed speakers actually sound 'boxy' or colored when compared to a well designed open baffle speaker.
Open baffle speakers should have plenty of speakers behind them and I'm lucky enough to have that.
Midbass/mid and highs can be just as impactful as a boxed speaker with the same number of drivers but bass will be less which is why open baffle speakers generally have larger / more bass drivers. Bass from an open baffle will also be tighter and cleaner in general.
Open baffle speakers are not as popular because they are a niche product. They tend to be larger and harder to place in a room so less of them available commercially.
Since going open baffle, I cant listen to any of my boxed speakers. My Kef LS50 are now being used as computer speakers. One of my friends equated the general sound of my open baffles to his B&W 802 diamonds but with more clear bass (though a little less of it) and a greater sense of space and scale which makes sense because my OB's are larger.
If your hi-fi sounds good to you, that should be all that matters. Well done,Randy!
This is a really subjective subject. We need to remember that room size also kind of will dictate speaker size on top of speaker placement. Some big speakers can work in a 12x12 room, while some smaller speakers can sound like ass. A square room is not ideal, but if you have a giant bed in front of it. May be perfectly fine. I think we worry about the speaker we want, and sometimes get disappointed by what we got. Not because the speakers suck, but because the room sucks.
Love you’re channel, I’ve been listening to magnepans since the 80’s you do need to have a large room, 15’ by 20’ long for a 6’ tall magnepan, definitely need back wall treatment, an amp with a lot of current. But when set up correctly with the speakers 6’ from the back wall, the soundstage is wide extremely deep, with sounds in front & all around the speakers with live recordings it’s an experience that I never got from monitors. Bass from a panel can’t be reproduced by a woofer, especially double bass when listening to jazz.
Any one who listened to the first Martin Logan Cls in the 80’s was shocked by the realism & transparency of the speakers. I am retired now & moved to a new house with a much a smaller listening room. I’ve been enjoying your reviews of great inexpensive speakers & streamers.
I've been a Definitive Technology fan for many years, and I was finally able to get a pair of BP-8060ST super towers about six years ago. They are fabulous! Room size and orientation are definitely huge factors with these guys. The room in our last house that we moved from about a year ago was a combination living and dining room that was about 20' long and 12' wide. The setup was centered on one of the long walls, with wide open spaces to the sides of the speakers. I played around with the distance from the wall and found that about 15" worked well for the dipoles. I really like dipoles, you really don't have to mess around with toe-in. Having a sub in both towers eliminates the boomy bass problems I always faced with a single sub. No seemingly endless hours of moving the sub around the room.
About a year ago we moved to a different house, and I'm blessed to have essentially a dedicated room. Wow, way different from the old room. Being enclosed, the bass is cleaner and tighter. This is great for music, but movies are really better (home theater, but we do a bit of two-channel listening as well), you can really feel explosions and dinosaur steps. I've played with the speaker placement a bunch and find that about 13" is good for the dipoles in this room.
As far as room treatments go, our current room is tile, and is very "lively," bordering on"harsh" at times. I had a rug in there, but my wife stole it for the dining room. Looking forward to getting a new rug down soon.
My LRS Maggies blow my mind at times, but so do my box speakers. So I keep both and switch them in and out.
Well said …..I have four pairs of speakers, three amps and two headphones.
The argument for OB speakers is the same as open back headphones. They sound different, not necessarily always better but that’s the thing - different people value different things. That’s the beauty of all this gear; we have choices.
I/3 of the problems are gone using open baffle speakers
No side wall & no floor too ceiling interaction
Box speakers are Omni directional a bubble of sound you don’t want that in a domestic home environment
Love my Magnepan’s ! But they are not for everyone, need power, not for hard rock, need space. But the imaging and sound stage are simply amazing.
I’m not sure if Maggies are really considered open baffle speakers. If they are, then, there are two distinct types of open baffle speakers. Maggies are magnetic-planar drivers, an entirely different means of creating sound than cone-type drivers. To me, open baffle refers to a cone-type drivers mounted not in a box, but on a 2 dimension baffle (no cabinet). This can produce stunning results, though, like Randy indicated, they can be sometimes lacking in low end as compared to bass-reflex cabinet designs (as most box speakers are). One advantage of open baffle speakers is they only project sound fore and aft, not sideways. This eliminates many sidewall cancelation problems exhibited by box speakers.
Very true!🤔😉
They are open baffle speakers. Dipoles radiate front and back. Some are planar, some use conventional drivers.
@@guacamole7493 Ok… I’ll go with that. To be clear, though, it wouldn’t be fair to judge one type and generalize to the other just because they are both open baffle. There are other huge distinctions between planar and conventional drivers.
From what I've read open baffle are more forgiving of side wall distance than box speakers. They do indeed need the space behind though.
Yes, exactly. sound waves cancel out wach other on the sides.
So I have a pair of the higher end Magnepans, 20.1s. A lot of your concerns are valid. The big ones are costly and they take a lot of power to sound good. But they do sound very good, and have pretty good base. The best I can offer is that you need to go to a showroom and hear them, or if you live near me (Dallas) come on over, have a cup of coffee and listen.
Your assessment regarding OB speakers matches my experience. However I have 6 Maggies in my HT system and 2 OB sub woofers. This is because my children are grown and my living room (HT) is not in the travel path through my home. The bottom line is I like the sound of the OB speakers over other box speakers.
I heard Martin Logan open baffle electrostatic speakers a few years ago and they made me want to become an audiophile. I had never heard of “sound imaging” but I immediately was introduced to the concept by those speakers over the top of the head. But… I live in Alaska and my opportunities to hear high end hifi speakers is limited. My wife just got me the elac reference speakers off my Amazon wishlist for my birthday which just forced me to make a decision and order an emotiva ta1. It’s coming Monday. I’m giddy.
Almost the same happened to me but my first planar speaker was the Magnepan SMGb. I never heard sound imaging like that before and after that my and a few of my friends got into DIY ESL building and it still continues 35 years later! Except now we have DSP and near-pro level measuring gear available.
In practical life and environment, instead of 1/3, try 1/5 + 3/5 + 1/5, there will be room for everything, and good sound too. Cheers!
yes as a working musician for years. open back cabinets fill a room exponentially better than closed back (box speakers) box speakers are directional. if you're not in the sweet spot, you lose a large amount of frequencies. open baffle speakers use "the room" as the box. this is the theory of bose 901 rear radiating speakers. they also "use the room".....yes open baffles need room for placement..however box speakers are also affected by the room they are placed in..and there is way more profit producing the "
next brilliant thing" a new box speaker offers...more sales stc;etc; if you need more bass, maybe add a sub to open baffle speaker system.
Another great talking point video! John Heisz - Speakers and Audio Projects has some great talking points on this subject, he also builds his own enclosures. In fact, he's also a woodworker, and builds his own tools, Band Saw, and Table Saw.
I made a set of DMLs to hang from my kitchen and it's tough for me to go back to box speakers. DMLs in particular have amazing soundstage. Not bad for a set of styrofoam panels (soon to be replaced with acrylic panels for more bass). Currently building a pair of OB speakers with conventional drivers. The easy DIY nature is prob the best part of OB stuff.
I've tried various materials for my dml panels, stiff cardboard is my favourite with a ribbon tweeter filling in the top end, I've posted videos on here 😉.
“Don’t take yourself too seriously”. That is exactly your charm. You are a wise man.
I forgot why I stopped watching your videos ... ah yes, I followed your advices and now I own an amazing sound system that I can’t get enough of, no more time for YT ;) hehe keep up your amazing work Randy. I’ve learned a lot.
I’ve been designing/building open baffle speakers for 30 years and conventional box speakers for 50+ years. Today I only utilize box systems for specialty applications where open baffle is not appropriate and would never consider a box system for critical music listening. There are technical reasons why open baffle speakers should sound better, and there are also complexities involved that make them more difficult to implement and thus also more difficult to market.
Open baffle speakers inherently radiate a more uniform polar response. While conventional box speakers radiate omnidirectionally at low frequency, higher frequencies become directional producing an imbalanced polar pattern. Open baffle speakers radiate a dipolar polar pattern with low and high frequencies being similar. In a nonreflective environment, this is not an advantage, in a typical room however, this makes a significant difference. If total energy in a particular frequency range is different than in another, room reflections are excited nonuniformly While conventional box speakers sound very differently (and typically much better) outdoors compared with in a typical listening room, open baffle speakers sound very similar whether outdoors (nonreflective environment), or in room (reflective environment). While a box speaker system may be designed to have an ideal frequency response on axis, the inherent non-ideal off axis response illuminates the room with total energy that is not ideal. Open baffle speakers dramatically reduce this problem.
Conventional box speaker designers go to great lengths to reduce baffle back wave interference and baffle resonance. Inside the box, the rear radiation of the cone must be absorbed to avoid radiating back through the cone chaotically. Additionally, insufficient stiffness of the cabinet walls radiate energy into the listening environment causing blurring. Open baffle speakers eliminate both problems.
The advantages of open baffle speakers do not come without undesired complexities. Consider two ideal point sources of opposite polarity separated by a distance, “d”. Where distance, “d” is equal to ½ wavelength, on axis energies add, but lower in frequency, cancel at the rate of -6 dB/octave. Typical baffles will not be ideal but rather will have multiple path distances. This results in spreading the frequency range where adding occurs and where cancellation begins. While it is possible to correct for this, “dipole effect” with passive crossovers, it is far easier and more efficient with active equalization. This biamplification requirement rules out the use of typical receivers to drive such a loudspeaker system.
For a conventional box speaker, displacement must increase as a squared function with decreasing frequency whereas an open baffle speaker, displacement must increase as a cubed function. This means a conventional box needs four times more displacement to play twice as low and an open baffle needs eight times more displacement to do the same. To play extremely low frequency with high SPL, the open baffle speaker requires either more volume displacement, or a large distance, “d” separating the front and rear radiation.
Also, for another disadvantage, you cannot place an open baffle speaker system against the back wall. Space limitations may prohibit proper placement making open baffle impractical for some. If however you do have the option to place the speakers several feet off the back wall, open baffle speakers can provide a much larger deeper and more 3-dimensional sound stage than conventional box systems.
My personal 2-ch system utilizes two 12” woofers each having an X-max of only 6 mm peak. These are mounted in H-frame baffles only about 10” deep. Using a steep high pass filter at 40 Hz, these are capable of plenty of SPL for my taste. To reach the same SPL at 20 Hz however the size, excursion capability, or number of drivers would need to be increased by a factor of eight. This can make reaching extreme low frequency impractical with open baffle. While this is certainly a disadvantage, the bass that the system can produce is extremely clean and tight, rivaling or exceeding the performance of the best high end conventional box systems.
Woofers having a high value of Qts is an advantage for open baffle systems making it possible to achieve high performance bass response with inexpensive woofers. The 12” drivers in my system were $14/ea back in 2014, that’s retail, single lot quantities. I think they are closer to $20 now, but there isn’t a commercially available system on the market, regardless of price, I would trade their bass performance for… that is within their limitations. Equalized flat to 25 Hz they still have respectable SPL capability to a point and still produce cleaner tighter bass than many extremely high-priced conventional box systems.
My home theater, with the exception of the infinite baffle subwoofers, is exclusively open baffle. The center, the mains, the sides, and the rears are all open baffle CBT (Constant Beamwidth Transducer) line arrays. The soon to be built Atmos speakers will likely be sealed box for practical reasons.
Open baffle is a completely different design approach to loudspeakers having both advantages and disadvantages. Siegfried Linkwitz described the open baffle as an, “acceleration transducer” as opposed to a, “pressure transducer” and I think this is a good description. Its advantages are indeed in sound quality and its disadvantages in practicality. Not everyone has the option to go with open baffle due to space or other limitations but for those with the option, it should certainly be considered.
I like what your are doing with your channel. I have been an audiophile for many years. I'm not a tweek where I am using $5000 speaker wire or overly esoteric equipment. As a sound engineer and an auditorium manager I do know how live music and equipment sounds. I use a combination of pro audio and home audio equipment at home. Have used Crown, Yamaha, Peavey, Carver power amps and JBl, Klipsch, ADS, B&W, Yamaha and even custom made speakers. Currently using a R-100 Yamaha receiver, Marantz CDR510 CD player, Teac V-2RX cassette player and a Pioneer PLX-500 turntable. All playing through some ADS 710 speakers. I know a lot of "audiophiles" will laugh at this stuff. Everything is connected with decent cabling and wires. I do use a Furman power conditioner. It sounds good and is in a relatively small room. I like the whole premise of inexpensive quality equipment. I know the ADS were very expensive in their day (got mine used 35 years ago), but in my opinion great speakers with decent electronics sound far better than average speakers with great electronics. Open baffle speakers are interesting and do sound good given enough space and amplification. Yes, very high end equipment can and usually does sound amazing, but balance and proper placement can do wonders! Keep up the good work!
get some Betsy Open Baffle speakers from Caintuck Audio. They are only around $550.
I made my own for less than $200, bought the exact drivers from Wild Burro Audio and made the baffles from solid oak to the exact same spec size.
In short, they sound pretty different. They make my Klipsch RO-600m's sound dark. They need subwoofers, but the problem i have is that they don't go quite low enough to fill on the upper bass and lower midrange. So I have to cross my subs over at 100hz. but my box subs don't seem be fast enough to fill that frequency seemlessly. Perhaps open baffle subwoofers would be perfect, but I don't want to go down that road.
Like any other design innovation, open baffle has its merits, but also has compromises. You're correct that open baffle bass drivers need to move a great deal more air to be effective than a traditional box design such as acoustic suspension or transmission line. That's why the Linkwitz LX521 DIY design uses two very long throw 10" bass drivers designed to do just that. There's no replacement for displacement.
Honestly the best thing I have ever heard was a magnapan 1.7 + sub. It sounded amazing. Right before that I went into some room that cost like 300k. I thought the magnapans sounded better it was amazing
1.7’s and a good sub is a great setup
This is my setup
Their is an effortlessness and naturalness to open baffle speakers that once accustomed too shows up every box speaker to have a particular and specific coloration that is difficult to ignore once identified. Not for everybody and the good ones aren't exactly cheap...? With that being said, sometimes the juice of life is in it's distortions.
When OB radiate back and forward as a 8 and when the back and front sound meet/collide at the sides they cancel out the sound. So they do not radiate as much to the sides as a box speaker especially at lower frequencies.
When OB play as much backwards as forward. And researchers has determined that if a indirekt sound is arriving ~x Ms or less (forgot that absolute number). The ear brain system will not be able to distinguish if it is a indirect/reflected sound or a direct sound. Therefore that is one reason why the speakers need come from the wall behind them.
When magnapan has the Tweeter to the left or right of the midrange. That is if you should lay down on the side a bookshelf.. and if you for example experiment with toe in then you are also changing the time alignment between the Tweeter and it's woofer.
So point them directly to the ear then they Tweeter and bass driver will arrive to the ear at the same time.
Setup optimazion for example the LRS is not that tall. When you sit down the ear height is 2/3 to 3/4 up on it long drivers.
Ideal is that ear height should be at the mid point of the driver length.
(Easy to test remove your chair and instead sit up on your knees on the sweet spot then you are roughly at the same level as when you sat in the chair. Then just lower yourself so your but meat your heals. You will immediately hear a sound quality improvement. If so make arrangements for elevating your LRS. And try to mount them vertically.)
Don't forget the pointing towards you and at least 1.2 out from the wall.
Happy listening! 🥰🎵🎶🎼
Take a look at Andrew Robinson's glowing review of the open-baffel Decware Zenmaster ZF15L ($3900-6900). You can build this (exact) speaker easily for about $400-500. All you need is a pair of Lii Audio F15 drivers and some wood to make an easy to construct Big Betsy baffle. The range of frequencies that these drivers do cover are done in an exceptional way and are absolutely worth trying out to get a feel for the magic of open-baffel. Just note that you have to have them placed correctly in the room to experience the magic, so they may not work out in all rooms. Lii Audio also has the W15 driver if you want to make open-baffel subwoofers.
There are some OB speakers below $500, the Caintuck Betsy baffles being one of them. Hawthorne audio use to sell their entry level OBs for $150 for the drivers and I can't remember what the flat pack baffles sold for less than $100 if I recall correctly. OB speakers are for people that like a few specific things regarding the sound of their systems, one is percussion instruments, but there are other things as well. I have owned many OBs, and although currently don't operate any, I still have some and throw them in a system once in a while. But in my case I have moved on to horns.
Houseplants, and lots of them: Best diffusive room treatment you can grow for free!! Get some broad-leaf and some narrow-leaf ones. I am actually not kidding. You'll also breath better with all that fresh oxygen. They go great with OB setups because they take that rearward-directed energy and diffuse it through your space, where it adds to the ambience without causing peaks or dips at any spot frequencies.
I loved my Apogee Acoustics Slant 8 hybrids (dipolar magnatic, with a 48" x 1" ribbon handling everything from 500 to 26,000 Hz) in my old place with a dense variety of growing potted things (the legal-everywhere sort, naughty boyz and girlz!) along the wall behind and to the sides, and there were no nasty slap-back or ER issues to speak of. The 48" ribbon maintains about a +/- 15 degree vertical pattern over their whole range, eliminating the floor bounce above 500 Hz. I think hybrid is the way to go if you actually crave and need bass to live. (I do.) The O.B. lack of box character is a real plus, but the partial to total cancellation of actual deep bass has always been what let me down about otherwise great full-range dipoles. With the Slant 8 ribbon hybrids, an 8" Vifa woofer in about a 38L vented triangular enclosure of 1" braced MDF gets me the rest of the way down to a tuning of 32 Hz. Box resonances? Taken care of. It's a triangle! Done! Alas, in my new house, no room has the requisite 3 to 4 feet of distance to the rear wall that you really _will need_ if you have dipoles, so those babys are set up for now at my friend's pad, where he can really let 'em sing.
Side note: "If you don't know you have a problem, then you don't really have a problem." Denial, perhaps? =D I think that's the first sign of an abiding gear* addiction is a proclivity that _has become_ a problem _before you knew you had a problem._ =D (* Or any addiction, its worth stating.)
I have been a Maggie fan since I bought my III's 50 years ago. Are box speakers more popular? No doubt! Anyone can take a box and mount any number of cheap drivers in it. It is far cheaper and easier! How many people can create a large capacitor/ electrostatic panel? Or a large plastic sheet with wires and an equally large refrig magnet with holes in it? Just by pure statistical analysis you would expect far more boxed speakers sold just based on percent of options! And with McD's the #1 restaurant, being the most sold does not always equate to best or right. The fallacy of ad numerum/ ad populum.
Paul of PS Audio said he built his new speakers based on wanting better than the IRS5 and Maggies! Steve the Audiophiliac considers Maggies one of his references. As do many of the most highly regarded reviewers. But many would also comment on adjustments to their listening when switching between panels and boxes. That have one as the primary reference makes it harder to switch around the many boxes that come in for review. At AXPONA after listening to $M systems, I wandered past the Magneriser booth and they had a pair of LRS on their stands in an open curtained booth. That Maggie sound was instantly there. That sound field they create. That I was not hearing in megabuck rooms with boxes.
You need to think of panels differently than box speakers. Boxes are enclosed and the sound is all controlled. Even with ports. They are designed to throw the sound out forward at you. While Panels are the drivers and your room is the cabinet. They move air around them and create sound pressures in that space.
I was not seriously back into Audio until a few years ago. Bought a pair of 1.7i. My oldest son, that has a reasonably significant system, said after 10 seconds of hearing them that he now knew what was wrong with every speaker system he has heard so far. But he is staying with his boxes.
But all the things you say. In their correct spot it is hard to get to the main bedroom and garage. So they get put back when not being seriously listened to. Fortunately no serious WAF, she is OK with them because she likes the sound. I will never own enough power. Using a Nelsen Pass designed ADCOM GFA555 right now. In some ways they love my 17' vaulted ceilings. But makes placement even harder and takes more current (power). As there is not some pair of small tweeters on each side to create a line across the sound field, you don't get what many call a point source. As I listen to little synth music, pretty much no instruments I listen to in rock, blues or jazz have any real information below 45hz? But when I find a source that is really well recorded, mainly direct to disc, the bass is actually very good! But no it is not the chest pounding type. Just the I can feel it through my feet on the floor type.
Different people are sensitive to different aspects. Mine seem best satisfied with Maggies. As an on going battle! :-)
Open baffle and panel type speakers usually takes more knowledge, effort, and luck (room dimensions and layout). Great sound from any type of system actually starts with the room.
Properly set up dipole speakers is the ultimate in audio...since the early 70's for me, anyway. The 3 foot placement rule rule on the short wall (if you can) is the absolute minimum.
I picked up a pair of older Spatial Audio M3 Hologram open baffle speakers. The bass is incredible down to 28-30hz in my 11x19. I do love the reduced room boom / interaction in the bass frequency of open baffle designs. So better maybe for me but I have a space where I can have them 4’ off the wall and there are two 15” woofers with a tweeter mounted in the center of the top woofer. I personally love the sound but they would not work with most people living situation.
A lot of folks don't have the room for open baffle speakers. I believe they sound better. I have Magnepans in my dedicated music room, so not really open baffle. They need to be 4'-6' from the front wall with some side clearance. I'm running big old Adcom monoblocks rated at 850 watts into 2 ohms. The room is also treated with bass traps in the front corners, absorbers at the first reflections, ceiling has 9" of fiberglass, 2D diffusion on the front wall, carpet tiles on the floor. The treatment helped but was not absolutely necessary. Room is a three-sided concrete bunker open to a huge space at the rear, closed off by "acoustic" curtains.
A room with full carpet, a heavy couch, overstuffed chairs (like my HT room) IMHO does not need treatment. There are bigger issues with room symmetry, speaker placement, seating, etc. Running JBL S590s as mains in that room.
I always go back to box speakers. Had 3 sets of Maggies including the lrs, and built 3 sets of open baffles and had some expensive emerald physics, but I went back to box speakers, I will say the top end on them can be really really good, on percussion or vocals they can be better than most box speakers at times, as some would say "open and airy and very transparent" but they didn't feel full range, the bass is not like your used to in a box speaker, so u may like it better, or u may not, depends on the person. They didn't keep me engaged and I grew bored over time with them, the low end just didn't feel alive, everything else was there though.
My Magnepan 1.7i beat my Tekton Lore with Berylium upgrades in overall performance, no matter whether I have them in a large room or a small one. I power the Maggies with a Sound Artist SA200ia which has no issue providing enough juice (thanks for the rec Jay) to get me a lot of the way to their full potential without shelling out an extra 2 or 3k. The 1.7i I picked up used for under 1k. Even my S.O. loves the sound of the magnepans over any box speaker in the house, and I have had about 7 sets through here.
I recently took possession of a pair of Caintuck “Betsy” open baffle speakers. I love them. They sound (to my ears) really good. I don’t find them to be as fussy about placement as my box speakers. I have noticed that they still sound good as I am moving about the house, for instance in the kitchen cooking. I have paired them with a 35wpc Cambridge, mono block Aegirs and a Reisong A10 tube amp. They sound excellent with all but my favorite pairing is with the Cambridge. Do they sound “better” than my vintage LaScalas? No. Just different. Caintuck’s owner Randy is a wonderful guy who will personally update you on your order and responds to any questions or comments you have. I am on the waiting list for a Decware tube amp and can’t wait to hear them paired with it.
I have the Caintucks and totally agree with you. I did add a subwoofer to the system and amplify with a couple of class d monoblocks which is heresy to most OB fans. They can rock just as well as any box speaker in the same price range. As for acoustic music and vocals they are superior in all ways to box speakers.
I have the Betsy’s and I am waiting for that peach tree GAN1 to arrive for my bedroom… might have to add a sub though
I recently got Caintuck Betsy's as well. It's early days, but I like them a lot. I added a subwoofer and I think that helps considerably. I believe that Randy said on his website that they only have usable base down to around 80hz. Also, Cheapaudioman Randy, they're only $50 more than your $500 limit. Give them a try!
One of the things that surprised me about OBs is how good it sounds even when you are in another room. Something about how the sound is propagated seems to result in a surprisingly full range immersive sound even in the next room. Nice bonus.
“If you don’t know you have a problem, then you don’t have a problem.” I want that on a T-shirt.
Commercial open baffle speakers are often called dipole, and many crossover to boxed woofers/subwoofers.
Dipoles indeed usually work better with careful placement away from room boundaries to their rears,
but many non-dipole (e.g. bipolar or ported) speakers are at least as fussy.
Among more successful dipole speakers in my experience are those approximating (vertical) line sources.
Bob Carver produced a series of "Amazing" dipole speakers with boxed woofers that are IMO very listenable,
but that may have as much to do with their driver technology as dipolar geometry.
Great question... How do you know if you have a problem?
For me, the big starting point was first hearing a sound stage. Lots of people have never heard it. Wide, deep, behind the speakers. Rock solid placement of each and every sound source. To me that is the nut of an engaging audio illusion. Then you can take out your smart phone with a spectral analyser and see how good or bad the sound spectrum is. Is it reasonably flat from 40Hz to 12k. If you have a good sound stage and its reasonably full range, you are in business.
I dipped my toes into audiophilia a couple of decades ago but stepped away because I realized I'd rather have a modest system I liked and use any additional money on music that I, up to that point, hadn't heard before. I find it much more rewarding personally to listen to music and not gear. I've never really lived in a house with living areas that were conducive to perfect speaker placement. Even if I did I wouldn't clutter a room with "treatments" or have bridge trestles for speaker wire, etc. Audiophilia is the constant pursuit of perfection in an industry that can't exist if that were ever possible.
You couldn’t have said it better. Audiophilia would have gotten you sick and broke.
I have been listening to audio for as long as I can remember, since my father has always been and is an audio repair man and enthusiast, which is what I believe is the correct name for people that love and are critical of audio and love audio equipment.
I am an audio enthusiast and nothing more, and let me tell you I laugh at some of these people that are called audiophiles, since most of them cannot hear past 10 kHz.
I always say this. Choose a decent system and make it work for you by either using a high quality EQ with very low Thd and a good room placement.
Control the music, not the other way around.
Randy is quite right here. If one kind of speaker designs killed the others quality-wise, then among audiophiles and especially among high-end dealers, they'd probably dominate that market share more than any one kind of speaker actually does. Plus, what's better? No audio system can do everything equally well, e.g, bass depth/power/presentation, soundstage, high-end nuance, dynamics, etc.- so choose your reward, choose your poison, but don't claim that one speaker design simply betters all others.
Open baffle speakers are mostly popular with diy speaker builders. They´re simpele to build, if you use a wideband driver you don´t even need a filter. Monacor sells a diy kit with two woofers and a tweeter, filter and the pre cut wood for 550€/pair.
OB are difficult and most of them are DIY projects. Done right, they sound great but you need massive space. Use a regular box SUB for low end.
Open baffle speakers are not maggies! I have had OB speakers, box speakers and magneplaners. Open baffle speakers are fantastic when done right. Many have compression drivers and horns, if your room is hard they will sound to bright. After I renovated our house I had to sell my OB speakers.
The new designs are incredible, but so is the price! I have a pair of Hyperion hps - 738 speakers now with a sub which almost every speaker would benefit from. They are fantastic speakers! A really good pair of OB speakers are hard to beat. In your house, with your gear, in your room totally agree. Upgrade your speakers last! You can make a decent speaker sound much better by starting what you have behind them, then upgrade your speakers if you want.
I've never had a pair of Magnepans but my second set of high-ish end speakers were Apogee Centaur Majors. They are a larger two-way system with a ribbon tweeter/mid and a dynamic woofer. They were much cheaper than the Stage which was the cheapest full ribbon. They were very amazing for about 20% of what I wanted to do. Not great with movies as dynamics aren't their strength. Definitely not a wide sweet spot. Very small sweet spot. They definitely wanted some power (I used a McCormack DNA 1.0 ,I think that was the name) and needed a lot of space to really start to disappear. But they were so fast and so immediate. Everything from the midrange up sounded instant. When set up just right, some vocals sounded 'there' in the room. Some acoustic guitar tracks sounded like a guitar in the room. Small scale chamber music could sound super realistic but anything more produced sort of wasn't quite outstanding. Large scale orchestral was kind of weird because the more quiet passages could sound so real but then the large, dynamic passages could sound a lot better on other systems. I think they are pretty niche.
I went from old magnepans to revel f206s, mostly because in the current house, we didn't have adequate room. In a room that works well with them, overall, I do think the magnepans sound more like live music.
Also, you need a good amp with magnepans. A typical avr isn't going to cut it. If you ever need someone to hear the difference between amps, hook up an $800 denon receiver and compare it to a better amp. It'll be plain as day on magnepans, even at low volume.
Another great video. Just as a side note…
Your little theme song u use: when I first came across your channel a couple months ago I loved that corny ‘70’s style theme. Then as I grew to appreciate your content I stopped hearing the theme, just became a background noise to prep me for awesome audio chat. Today I heard it again and love it, as if for the first time. So appropriate for a dude from the radio shack age. Keep up the audio love. Your vid’s fill my soul with happiness.
The open baffle speakers that I had exposure to were Magnaplaners which were huge (65" tall x 20" wide). They did sound fantastic in the treble all the way down to the lower midrange/upper bass frequencies but...The low bass was non existent which stands to reason because of the baffle size is too small to keep the long wavelengths of low frequencies from the back from cancelling out with those of the front. But if you have the room, and add a subwoofer, they just might be the ticket to a fabulous sounding system. One more thing, they had a sweet spot in the middle of the speaker, that if you moved your head up or down by more then a foot or two, the high frequencies would die out considerably.
I will say I find a much better sound stage and much better center image when I pull the speakers out in an equilateral triangle and I put my my speakers back when I am done. It is worth the effort every time I do it. The sound stage is a massive difference for my system in my home. My speakers love good placement!
Get a UMIK, learn REW, and do a video on your impressions. I think its really interesting just HOW MUCH you can do on the digital end.
I’ve got one of those shared space situations, albeit still (mostly) a listening room. Speakers can’t get out past 20 inches into the space. Also, the equipment rack needs to stay between them. So one thing that made a crazy good difference was to simply get the audio gear below the speaker plane. Even getting rid of the rack and just using a very low/shallow two level tv shelf sitting atop absorption blocks. Huge improvement in stage, localization, depth, etc.
Have you ever actually listened to a well designed open baffle speaker? I have very low audio budget and am open to lots of options, but my experience is that well designed OB speakers can sound fabulous. You don't need massive drivers to get bass. The right drivers (e.g. with the right Q spec among other things) can provide really good bass. More importantly, the bass that IS there is well defined, "fast" and just great. Sure, many box speakers can do this too IF well designed. Unfortunately, well designed often means expensive. But I build my own gear, and when you do that, suddenly they become VERY affordable. And yes, they can sound better than box speakers. They don't always, but they can.
You are right. With proper drivers 30-40Hz usable bass is not difficult to achieve with OB. Of course smaller OBs or electrostatics may need a sub but then a lot of folks who deride the OBs for lack of bass wax eloquent about little bookshelf numbers that run out of steam below about 80Hz.
Honestly most folks use subs these days anyway. There are some who use big boxes without subs but not as many as did back in the day.
I am all about run what you like but each approach has its own challenges for me the challenges of an OB build are easier to manage than a box and the advantages, especially for classical and other acoustic music, are well worth it.
Some day I will probably play with horns and TLs but honestly OBs can be pretty efficient too.
Randy!!!!!!!!!! 500$ open baffle speakers: Lii Song F15 full range drivers. Build a set of plywood barrel baffles (22 inches high, 18 inches wide, tilt baffle back 15°.), Add a good subwoofer and you will have a 600$ set of open baffle speakers that fit in any room and will kill any speaker costing less than 5000$. Do it for yourself and your viewers, it's really a game changing value for $.
You're the man, I appreciate your open-mindedness and honesty. It's refreshing
I’m going to get popcorn for the thread battle the title should ensue 🙌
I have lots of experience with open baffle speakers. They have some interesting advantages but my current setup uses box speakers for practical reasons and I’m enjoying my setup just fine.
Open baffle…..you won’t go back to a box. Unfortunately, Spatial Audio in Salt Lake City would change your mind. They will fit in your living room. A bit more than $500, but to do it right you do need to spend more. But at a price point they will squash a box.
Room treatment is VERY important. Take your current setup, put it in an unfinished basement, just cement walls, floor, and wood floor joists above you. Its not going to sound nearly as good.
I have experience and own magnepan LRS speakers. They do sound better than similar priced box speakers, with many caveats. They need a subwoofer or two then they're cooking. They need practically an entire room dedicated to your system for placement from the wall and then finally, the positioning and aiming of them is extremely particular because they create the oddest most specific dispersion that's like a laser beam. And another thing, they need a beefy amp. So, they can be awesome, but they are wildly impractical for most people and their spaces and lifestyles.
Picking a room in the house just for HiFi is the worst decision you can make. Eventually, you're going to plan your speaker session and not use them everyday, which is the reason you actually bought them in the first place.
On the other hand, using them in our living rooms is the very reason open baffle speakers exist - they interfere less with the room an furniture. That's why they're much better deal for the money then conventional speakers. Avoiding room issues always provides the best sound reproduction.
However, you are completely right, initial investment is relatively steep, even for a DIY project.
Estimate 2way active open baffle system (DIY!) can add up to 5 000 euros or more. And yes, dual 12 inch woofers provide an equal low frequency extension as a single 7 inch driver in a ported enclosure.
Yes they sound fundamentally better /realistic and yes they struggle with base and placement . But if you have the room and can hook up a REL, no contest. Electro stats don’t need that much power.
The appeal of open baffles is the soundstage. Good boxes put on a show but open baffles envelope you. Box speakers remain the major market share because they maintain their performance (almost) regardless of environment, open’s are very picky about the room.
Had a pair of LRS. Sold them.
They sound very open and transparent. The imaging and height was really cool. Tone was very nice and natural. They kind of remind me of 3d glasses. Something you want to try out, it's pretty cool for a little bit, but then you're over it. I do think that a good pair of stand mounts that image well with a small sub and a sweet sounding amp is going to be wayyyy more satisfying to 98% of listeners.
The LRS had zero punch or sense of dynamics and the sound would change dramatically if I was slouching vs siting up straight. I ran them with a Schiit Vidar and it would go into protection even when it didn't feel very loud. They definitely need lots of good power, and that was simply not something I was interested in chasing. If you already have powerful amps they might be worth checking out. Even with enough power I have a feeling you'll never get a feeling of impact from a vibrating ribbon (at least not something as small as the LRS). Best way to think of the difference between Magnepan and regular box speakers is the Magnepan's sound is like a bowed string instrument whereas a dynamic driver is like a piano where the string is being struck. All that said, some people really don't like loud music or the feeling of drivers moving a lot of air (like my mom for example), so for that person, LRS might be perfect.
I sold mine and "downgrade" to a MG-12, with slightly better bass but I still pair them a 12" sub.
Well said, I had them as well and I liked the kef q350 better by a large margin and I let the maggies go. That's the way I'd put it also.
Bass and dynamics are usually better on a box speaker, at a lower cost. Unfortunately, the midrange and highs always sound like they are in a box. Speaker designers struggle with how to minimize cabinet resonance, with a lot of bracing, damping and/or a lot of extra cabinet weight. Open baffle (dipole/planar) speakers disappear better with minimal midrange coloration. A quality sub can fix some of the issues with bass/dynamics. It just depends on what you prefer.
I have listened to my open baffle design speakers for over five years now, love them, won't go back to a box speaker unless we're talking a sub like my SVS SB-1000 Pro,, Okay... Time for another cup of coffee.
magnepans lack dynamic range , but when set up right a sub or two added. you get something really good out of them.
I have currently the Tympani I,mgI,mgII, MgIIIa, mmgi , mg c, mmgw
in short , a lot of them... every time I put a cone system down . I swerve right back into my planars with subs again .
the advantages are that you get a linesource driver system. open baffle systems that use dynamic drivers are a bit different.
dipole , look up dipole radiation patterns..
they don't interact with the room like a cone does. Minimal side to side reflections , minimal floor and ceiling reflections.
imagine a figure "8" through the speakers (when you look from the top of the speakers. no cabinet coloration which is a huge advantage..
also pointing this out?! magnepans are not the only open baffle speakers out there. Albeit super popular, they do all share low sensetivity (85db ) or so which makes sense. There is no cabinet ,so much energy is lost into the room. You get a way more natural sound, not to mention much bigger and more detached from said speakers than most (read MOST) cone systems.
Small thing I wanted to share , they do NOT require a super high current amplifier. that's inherently false , low sensetivity,indeed likes some more power . However if we are taking current , magnepans in particular are VERY impedance friendly and not huge dipping speakers.
They are a resistive load to a amplifier (giant resistor in all reality) not claiming , that more power will make them even sing more. But a pure need ? not really.
if you set up a Maggie CORRECTLY, and power them with a system that meshes well with them. And I am a huge fan of using a pair of subs?! You get a system that most cones cannot match easily .
I've had even the infinity rs1b (look it up)
vs my Tympani with 2 subs? wasn't even a close one. Offcourse, this is super subjective, but that's with anything audio. One thing is for sure , matching a good system , room , understanding your acoustics to get a Maggie to sound top notch is not easy.
it takes lots of time, and patience .. especially if you're space constrained. Don't even try it, it won't give you what you expect from a Maggie.
Many great points here Randy 👍🤘👍
I have not listened to real highend stuff in many ears (for the following reason), but what I have listened to, always made me feel like the sound is too flatt, too dry and "correct". I simply do not like it (talking 50 000 $ about 20 years ago). I like bass, tight, punchy bass😊 nothing like it. If a speaker/ system does not have good bass, it simply does not matter if the rest is perfect (it is boring🤪).
The easiest way to get great sound in a livingroom (my experience), is to have small/ medium bookshelves and a sub (maybe 2🤪). Use roomcorrection (a livingroom will most of the time be full of problems, and roomcorrection may help.) I also find that smaler subs 10/12" is easier to get good sound from in a "bad" room (probably less of the deepest most problematic frequencies). DSP is always a good thing with subs (have that in my HT).
I have (can hardly believe it myself), gotten my wifey to by her own speakers for the livingroom🙊 (gave her my old amp to go with them). She wanted Klipsch, cause she think they look cool🙊🙈🙊
(They doo look nice). Now we have a setup in the livingroom that is 10 times better than soundbars (my personal opinion), and I also have my dedicated room, where I can go frickin bananas🙊
Small speaker and a sub also had a rather good WAF (does not make a big mark in the livingroom🙊)
Thanks for the very helpful info! My central listening chair would trip up the household if it was "room centered" with the speakers so I use the balance output to compensate. It's a working solution to my perfectly imperfect world!
With open baffel, I find they have a more open midrange and articulate bass, but less bass volume than a boxed speaker, a boxed speaker will sound more shut in. I heard some lii audio fast 15 from China in a laminated wood baffel.
Randy - love your pragmatism on the human element to the audiophile review. It's the meat in the seat as much as it is the kit.
I have an almost 40 year old pair of Bose 301 II speakers. Wall/Room treatment would be counterproductive. They are designed to reflect off the side walls. They are 18” from the side wall and 12” from the rear wall, just as Bose suggests.