Titans = Old Gods
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2024
- As World of Warcraft head into the World Soul Sage it's worth asking... what are titans exactly? And what are their equivalents in the WoW cosmos. Think less Void Lord, more Old God
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I have a pet theory that Aman’thul is the only real titan of order and the rest were beings he infused with order while they were world souls. Likely not true but would be a fun twist to “the last Titan.”
He WAS the one to wake the others.
u mean u just follow what pyromancer was saying for years, and what most people alredady believe since we got introduced be the whole "change of cosmic force alignment by infusing with enough essence"? that shit is as old as the "idea" that trump rigged the election. lol
I vibe with that, especially with how with the new stuff in the emerald dream book about Eonar, how she's positioned much more with Life rather than Order
This is not a bad take at all. If we look at the other titans and their personalities, it would make sense even! If we look at Eonar and how she likes "life" so much, maybe you are spot on.
That would explain Sargeras turn to the fel as well. If he was not a pure being of order in the first place, but only infused with it, he could probably be reinfused with fel energy later on.
As others pointed out, the same might have hapened with Eonar, which might be why she and Aman'thul do not seem to have such a close relationship. (In reference to the world tree she planted and Aman'thul destroyed out of anger).
Sounds like Pyromancer’s ideas in the early stages. He will be screaming at a wall of post it notes and yarn soon enough saying, “It’s Norganon I tell ya!”
I think norg is honestly likely to be the manipulative one.
And pyromancer was cringe as hell. Thank God he’s gone
@@FrankthegbHe's not dead lol
@@Frankthegb Pyromancer has had a redemption arc.
@@FrankthegbPyro is 20x better than this fake duo lol They are stealing Pyro’s ideas
One of my personal mantas for some time now has been, "Don't get angry, get curious." It applies to so many things, and I'm glad you brought up that important point.
I really wish the Shadowlands WAS actually the opposite of the Emerald Dream and had zones on Azeroth but mirrored. The symbolism of Torghast inverting Ice Crown would have been very cool if we saw a connection with Azeroth directly. If we went through the shattered sky and landed in Shadow-Ice Crown but it was controlled by Zovaal, being used as a soul prison. We could have seen the thin veil between where our loved ones go when they die. Like wisps being a projection of our loved ones through that veil of life and death. Still could show factions controlling different areas of Azeroth’s Shadowlands. Like Feralas could have been Ardenweald. Etc etc
dunno what u r rambling about .... exactly that IS the shadowlands ..... we know it from the cosmos map, we know it from ingame found lore snippets -- and we know it from quests like the DK starting zone, or the secret thing with Una .... during the shadowlands they say there are many doors and afterlifes "what u see is just a fraction of them all" -- while they were hiding the fact that oribos, bastion, ardenweald and the rest are just artificial installations to alter the native shadowlands to a spefic new purpose. really cant fathom why , who still hasnt played that xpac, knows *more* about its lore -- by just reading the texts of SOME quests or books lying around -- than people who actually did it all . . .
Or at least have afterlives that actually exist in Azeroth. Like the Quilboar hunting fields, the Ancestral Plane, and whatever the Centaur believe in. That's worth a whole 'continent' of tribal/elemental/primal/savage cultures.
Sounds like Zelda Majora's mask!
Based on the recent lore about the Emerald Dream, I would wager that both the dream, and the shadowlands are both layers of reality that bridge between realms. The dream is like the bridge between reality and life, and the shadowlands is a bridge between reality and death. All of the shadowlands expansion takes place on the bridge.
The titans were able to and ready to eradicate all life on Azeroth. They aren’t aligned with life on Azeroth.
but pancakes are not water
Yes they are. That was a failsafe for when they believed the spread of the old gods to be irreversible
That speaks to me as more anti-old god/void than pro-Azerothian inhabitants. The people of Azeroth are not their concern.
Trolls, Tauren and a few other "native races," of Azeroth evolved from animals at magically accelerate rates that spawned from the Un Crater gardens by Eonar. They're not Titanspawn per se, but they didn't come from the Black Empire
To enter the shadowlands we literally shattered a mirror in the sky above ice crown and saw the tip of torghast, the equivalent mirrored in the sky
I definitely buy a “life realm mirror” take
We have been to the death realm, Zereth Mortis is the core of the Death Realm. Maybe not representative of the whole of the death realm, but certainly part of it.
Since so much of D&D cosmology pays tribute to D&D ('what do we name our dwarf god?' 'Well in D&D it's Moradin so let's change one letter'), I would envision the realm of order to be similar to mechanus, an enormous perfectly ordered machine with a single unified consciousness. The titans, despite their holier-than-thou attitude, have distinct personalities, disagreements, preferences and emotions, which may well mean they're already far too chaotic to exist in the realm of order. They might even want Azeroth so badly since her power would grant them immunity to being 'recalled' by their creator.
I think it's okay to have a lore guide to Warcraft that is like The Silmarillion to Lord of the Rings. The Silmarillion is for the HARDEST of hardcore nerds that want to build on. Not for people just playing the game.
so my head canon about shadowlands and the death realm is that shadowlands is a part of the death realm that was pulled into our reality and ordered by the titans (or beings more powerful than titans from the arcane realm) and serves to funnel and organize souls of our reality to be used as power for the realm of order while also denying them from going to the actual realm of death proper thus denying the death realm power. this is why azeroth's greatest champions (player characters) can repeatedly die and return.. we're used to fight other powers and aid the titans as kind of enforcers. if we died and went to the true realm of death we'd become an army for death to exploit and arcane doesnt want that so they took over and manipulate our afterlife so they can keep us.
this would explain why silvanus and the jailor (and the primus) wanted to break thus cycle of death.. the primus is probably working for the true death realm trying to free the shadowlands and allow our souls to go to our true afterlife to be dominated and turned into the army of death.. (kinda a larger scale of what arthus was going to do)
I like the idea that Titans are equivalent to Void Lords, but the method they use to corrupt planets is different. Titans use installations, Void Lords use fleshy Old Gods.
I like thinking of the cosmic powers as energy generators/sources
Fel = combustion
Life = hydro/wind
Light = solar
Death = nuclear fission
Order = electromagnetic
Void = nuclear fusion
In the time rift timeline Blizz showed us what happens when the black empire wins. It's a world devoured and void of life. I think that's pretty clearly not a good outcome for life.
A bit surprised you didn't mention the 3D cosmo chart vid
ruclips.net/video/BhsDlrL0a3c/видео.html
Talie, brilliant terminology. Entropy is the irreversible transformation of energy into a lower form. So one could argue that is "destructive". Very nice.
the charts aren’t actually that much different... basicaly the same things. I don’t understand why people view them differently, they all have the same divisions and competing “realms”
When Tali ends up speculating himself right into my hot take about azerothian cosmology. Furthermore, the Emerald Dream has been referred to as the walled garden of the titans, and I imagine the Shadowlands are the walled graveyard of the titans.
I think "The First Ones" are Arcanes (Order) version of the Void lords. Think about it, the first ones created all the shadowlands, a place to put all the souls to there rightful afterlife's.
What is that if not ordering death?
9:30 ...erm ERM ... @Taliesin we KNOW we were not IN the realm of death but in a mirror if the emerald dream .... where were lines in all the ingame texts ingame that sorted that out O.o ..... whoever still thinks the shadowlands are PART of the realm of death really did understand nothing. cuz even oribos, and the 4 zones, were clearly framed as artificial installations, with the maw being the only primordial place -- while being wrecked and withered due to the artificial depriving of anima
When you think of Thousand Years of War, and the Lokus Walker and its analogy and Allerias' vision of crystal prisons full of Beings of Voids, I automatically think of Hallowfall Crystal.
Applying the logic that titans = old gods, does anyone else notice a pattern of all vs 1? Titans vs sargeras, death pantheon vs jailer, old gods vs the one they ate? Maybe I’m misremembering but seems like a pattern, considering how the death pantheon seemed more on par with the old gods in power
The Pantheon of Death are magnitudes more powerful than Old Gods. They are equivalent in power to the Pantheon of Order (Titans), and just one Titan killed the most powerful Old God on Azeroth with one hand.
The Titans must be equivalent to Void Lords by this measure. Unless there's a yet-to-be-revealed middle point in the power hierarchy.
Also, killing one Titan resulted in the breakdown of the machinery of death. The Shadowlands stopped functioning properly when Argus died, and they are shared with all reality. That to me implies that Titans are much more fundamental to reality as a whole than most people seem to think.
@@MyUsualComment I don't know, Anduin managed to stab the Arbiter like it's nothing. And he's like... a dude.
@@Altrantis Who was empowered by the Jailer.
Edit: As an example of how much power the Jailer can give an individual, consider Sylvanas. While empowered by the Jailer, she defeated The Lich King and destroyed an artifact that literally ripped a hole in reality.
Also, Blizz literally said the Pantheon of Death is equivalent in power to the Titans (who, again, are the Pantheon of Order).
Examples of Titan feats of strength: Sargeras and Aggramar were said to be able to cleave planets in half with their swords, Aman'Thul killed Y'Shaarj, the most powerful Old God on Azeroth, with one hand, etc. They are insanely powerful. Essentially gods.
@@MyUsualComment I think Blizz has done a pretty good job of showing parity between the manifestations of the cosmic forces in reality. Sure, the Titans may be individually way more powerful than a single old god, but there are far more old gods scattered throughout reality. Individual demons are weaker still, but they are basically infinite in number. So total power seems very balanced even if individuals of a certain force are more powerful.
You're right that the community lost that curiosity. Got into an argument with some Knob who was trying to say the new cosmic void was the "pussification" of the void.
I also get using not using quite the right word for things. Definitely can photosynthesize with that.
Could you take the 3d model you made orientating the realms like planets and find which position places Decay next to Life? I am curious how the rest of the chart would look from that perspective.
Yes fel is entropy which is why I love it so much
That second chart is definitely pulling some inspiration from the sephiroth. Kinda ties in to the whole "Light was first". Perhaps all the other forces are just emanations of the Light that are further and further removed from it, and thus less pure. I guess that would make Life the Sophia and Void the Demiurge in this analogy.
What if the First Ones are the Arcane Gods?
if you give each of the "powers" an energy source, what will they do with it? (assuming random stone with energy in it for my examples)
Light: Bring it to life. (make it a naaru)
Life: let it nurture the surrounding life.
Order: Use it to power their creations.
Shadow: consume/vanish it.
Death: Let the power seep out into whatever's nearby until it runs out.
Disorder: EXPLOSION!!!
My fruit related parental scolding was by dad.
"You pumpkin head."
I love this xD
tali talking about the cosmology chart is always the best content^^ love talking to you being precise about text^^
a little detail of the original chronicle force map: Only life connected to the border of the entire map...i mean, life big tree do it, i mean, its artistic freedom but its strange that´s only happened to life.
Oh so the great cycle on the left chart is how the shafowlands and the emerald dream interact with our reality. In a cycle of life and death. We actally just saw something in death come back to life this expans in with emerdrasil literally being in shadow lands as the seed then glowing in the emerald dream then phasing into azeroth.
The theory I currently like most is that the Shadowlands is similar to the Emerald Dream in that the Titans took a piece of the Life/Death Realms and curated an artificial Ordered Realm so they could use the power of those realms for their own purposes. In the 10.2 Emerald Dream Zone and Amirdrassil Raid it is made explicitly clear that the Emerald Dream is a Titan-Ordered pocket dimension created out of a piece of the life realm. They even say that Nymue is the entity that weaves the Dream together; ordering the unordered energy of life.
The 'machine of death' is not too different from the titan themed machinery and we've seen titans use different designs and styles for their facilities in places like Uldum, Uldir, Ulduar, Uldaman all being distinctly different thematically. Even the Emerald Dream and the Wellspring Temple has its own unique design. It feels perfectly reasonable that the Shadowlands could be another section of the multiple planes of existence that the Titans have colonized for the purpose of order.
I still believe that Galakrond is secretly an anti-hero. He took on an evil power to push out the Titans but failed due to the betrayal of the Aspects. I also believe Galakrond can't die as he took on the undeath aspect. With this, he has been separated and spread across Azeroth to prevent him from being reborn. These piece and mounds of flesh are the Old Gods.
If Galakrond predated the Black Empire this would make sense, but he was after. I do like the idea of him being a primal representation of undeath, the first primalist as it were
@@TenzinBeifongIII Isn't all lore from back then provided by the Titans? As far as I recall, we haven't really been able to verify those stories with any other beings that existed during these times.
@@Untrentideful read Dawn of the Aspects. You're welcome
@@TenzinBeifongIII Could you please provide the information that suggests that it's known outside of the Aspects and the Titans? I'm not going to buy and read a book, when it's not my interest, just to answer one question.
@@UntrentidefulI don't have the answer, but from my recollection of the book, it's told from Kalecgos' POV while an ancient artifact recalls the events of Galakrond's demise.
Life, Disorder and Shadow, my theory is that World Trees without order create/become Old Gods. Life is the seed of chaos which creates Shadow and Void.
Death, Order and Light alligned with the creation of Calia Menithil and the creation of the Crown of Wills. Primus and Amanthul have passed knowledge to one another.
The map from Chronicle could be how the forces used to be alligned and the new shadowlands version could be the updated alignment, notice how the shadowlands version puts the Death realm above all. In Chronicle the Light is above all others a.k.a on top.
My idea is that the shadowlands are the titan construct of the realm of death. Like a pocket dimension ordered by “titans” or whatever.
I think The Maw of the Shadowlands is likely the largest opening to the Void itself and the rest of the Shadowlands was set up as a line of defense against consumption of reality.
Entropy in physics is the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work. This means there is no more life. It's the lack of order or predictability which declines into disorder. Entropy always increases with time. Life > entropy > disorder > destruction > nothing > life... repeat. Yea seems good to me Tali lol
Titans and old gods have the same objective, harvest/convert/claim worlds souls Arcane and Void use different methods with Arcane having invested some of their world souls into making a few very effective agents while void seems to plant seeds of corruption,probably fragments of world souls, in worlds then then grow into their agents that are specifically created to corrupt one world.
maybe world souls have different inherent strengths or maybe the purity of their upbringing affects what they become eg if the titans reach a world soul first and manage to hold the flag for the entire match the world soul becomes an arcane lord but if it's contested then maybe it becomes something lesser maybe each of the titans was a contested world soul which is why they exhibit traits of the other greater powers.
1:48 there's also potentially way more old gods, so being weaker doesn't hurt them. Sargeras destroyed a planet infest with them, so that's more than just the old gods on azeroth. Potentially significantly more than the titans.
I think they need to save WoD for what they were hinting at before, that there were other contintents on Draenor to be explored. Maybe a "Warcraft 1" happens on Draenor, and one of the other realms of existence is invading the realm that broke our timeline, trying to 'fix' it?
So the old gods are effectively void titan embryos (or even better, more like an illithid tadpole), and the Ttians are the world souls turned to Arcane and all grown up (or a mindflayer post-transformation), makes sense that they're stronger than the old gods on Azeroth
The problem with the old god = titan equivalence is that we don't have any clue what titans do with world souls normally. We know exactly what the old gods do because we've seen multiple examples, but the only world soul we've seen the Titans interact with is Azeroth (and Argus I suppose, but hardly a normal example either), which was already heavily infested by the old gods. Saying that they run around the universe stuffing world souls full of machinery to force them to be pure order beings is like saying that doctors just hook up all their patients to as many machines as possible when your sample size is a single patient in critical condition who just had a massive tumor cut of him and then was put on chemo for 3 more.
If the Titans are the equivalent of the Old Gods, it could be that the First Ones were the equivalent of the Void Gods, and had already found success in the past ordering of the Cosmos, which Aman'thul is trying to continue on with. It would explain why the Shadowlands, allegedly a realm of Death, is so heavily Ordered.
The Shadowlands are on the same level as The Dream and The Twisting Nether. Sort of a halfway realm between our reality (or compatible with it) and the Higher planes of the cosmos. Demons of the Burning Legion were born in the Nether, the Scourge/Undead were created from the Shadowlands. Dryads are from The Dream, etc. They can all cross into our world and so can we. As for the arcane equivalent, the Nexus is perhaps a portal to it. The last part of the Uuna storyline is giving big void vibe, maybe it's related. I have no idea about the Light realm though. Food for thoughts...
Your theory of the titans being "arcane old gods" (I'll call them pre-titans) that infected a world soul makes the WoW cosmos a metaphor that I can't ignore.
Namely, the great dark beyond is a womb, world-soul containing planets are viable eggs, the titans are embryos, and the old gods/pretitans are, well, you know.
This, of course, makes the void "sending old gods into the great dark beyond" precisely a creampie.
You just lead me to another inconsistency with our understanding of the cosmology: The Titans, Wild Gods, Naaru, etc are on the same cosmological level as the Burning Legion, but the Legion was literally a creation of Sargeras, a Titan. It literally cannot occupy the space the cosmology says it claims.
True. The Chart should have "Demons" instead of Legion. Sargeras just formed the Legion from Demons.
But since the Chart was made by mortals based on Information they head they have experienced Demons mostly as Members of the Legion or summoned by Warlocks, so for all purpose Demons and Legion is the same thing for the writers.
Light is energy from nothing, it's the spark
Shadow is energy too nothing, it's the darkness
I’ve always leaned towards the Emerald Dream and the Shadowlands being “bridges” between Reality and the realms of Life and Death. Both are touched by our Reality and their respective realms.
Looking back on titan lore and how you need to cultivate life on a planet to awaken them i wonder if the base form of a titan is actually life-aligned
my take one the Shadowlands is that it exists within the plain of death but it's akin to the twisting nether and the emerald dream in that it's a splinter of the death realm that seeped into our reality or was purposely implanted into our reality so that mortals could have somewhere to go after death
I think your point about curiosity is a good one. But I also think the WoW community is not completely unjustified in having lost it. When you have a franchise like Warcraft with retcons and sometimes sharp changes in story and even creative direction, it becomes harder to discriminate between new, exciting mysteries and fumbles with the lore. But I think that WoW has a clearer creative direction for at least the Worldsoul Saga, which should help rebuild the trust that leads to curiosity.
Entropy - the lack of order or predictability. I’d say Tali is right about that being a good fel definition
point of order about "no demons in the shadowlands" What about the dreadlords/Nathrezim and supposedly answering to the Jailer?
So, one thing on the light sees only one future and the void sees them all - I think there is something to back that up in the Rejection of the Gift cutscene when the naaru is so intensely focused on the prophecy being fulfilled. It also kind of explains why Velen, a dude super into the light, is a prophet but also doesn't seem to actually know what will happen - perhaps he just knows what *should* happen according to the light. That said, I will freely admit it's not iron clad proof or anything.
I think Aman'Thul is a being of Order, like Dimensius is a being of Void. He's the only one actually of Order, and he corrupted World Souls to Order, creating the Pantheon, and is trying to do the same to Azeroth.
Shadowlands to me felt like an attempt from an alien creature to create something they saw.
7:35 people get this chart SO WRONG... or all comoic maps for that matter. the brokers do *not* depict the "cosmos", but _their_ cosmology i.e. just the shadowlands! (which is a POCKET DIMENSION, see our map, and *not* the realm of death itself). its about "the great cycle" which is their shtick, with depicted by death inside the shadowlands _right now_ , i.e. the arbiter as symbol for their systems in place, and likewise depicted by life inside the shadowlands, i.e. the big tree in ardenweald as symbol for the life side of systems in place, BOTH encompassed by the big snake -- those make up the cycle -- all the rest is external influences seeping inside or the glimpses of the other side of the veil of what the burning legion is doin, or the old gods corrupting planets etc.
but it is JUST focused on the shadowlands, i.e. like zooming closer on "our" map to just have the shadowlands in frame.
I am eager to learn more about the Cosmic Forces, the Realms and the beings in them. I just hope they clear this whole thing up, cuz right now, it's a mess.
what if: Both "lords" of certain cosmic forces try to enter the physical universe, reality, the void lords created curroptor for world souls, but what if world souls is a possibility to make artificially bodys for the arcane "lords"= titans, a arcane lord and a artifical powersource and body
"Correct me if i am wrong" on the Life creation and the titans. It was the Titan allied with life, Eonar, And her watcher, Freya, who brought life to Azeroth. Freya Created/accessed the Emerald dream. which i believe she used the Tear of Elune for. and used the waters of the Well that started to flow out of Three distinct areas on Azeroth, that we now know as Un'goro, Sholazar, and the Vale of the Eternal blossom. Here Freya accessed the Emerald dream and let Life populate the world. Here is where the Tauren, Pandaren, and Trolls, the three most ancient known races were born from, among all other life.
So Titans going by Order alone. do not create life. but Titans allied to Life/elune do, and have created all life on planets. which are all connected to the emerald dream.
Question who created our realm then? Was our space just a neutral area that suddenly came a focal point or was our realm made to be something more that other realms decided to influence?
Regarding how Arcane/Order is sitting right next to Void/Shadow - I have noticed for awhile that some Void looks very Arcane-like or a with Arcane mixed in, and vice-versa.
Demons did got there. We had a quest to send them back to the chaos realm
The issue with Shadowlands is the name. There are two concepts of the Shadowlands, both canon and real but they are different things. One is the actual realms of Death beyond the veil, not Reality which we live in, the other is a sort of pocket/mirror-dimension of our Reality which is sort of a vestibule to the main Shadowlands which does not require the passage through the vail to reach-one just has to.. die. This is where many spirits, ghosts can get stuck in if Kyrians don't ferry them through the veil-and that's the difference. Our Shadowlands or the main Shadowlands. The Emerald Dream for the realms of Life is pretty much a similar concept as *our* Shadowlands to the main Shadowlands, the realms of Death.
Here's the twist, which is confusing but very simple at the same time. But first, we have to come to terms with that not everything needs to be perfectly symmetrical, ordered. The main Shadowlands is infinite. New pocket-realms are being created all the time (when the Forge of Afterlives is online). The main issue here is probably Ardenweald, naturally. It is considered to be the mirror of the Emerald Dream in many ways but at the same time it cannot be that since it would be part of the main Shadowlands, not the in-between region of our Shadowlands. I'm perfectly fine with this asymmetry, however, it could also be explained with there being many different versions and variations of eternal Death forests for Nature spirits and the Ardenweald we saw happens to be Ours (or mostly ours). I still believe it is in the main Shadowlands, but that doesn't really matter WHERE it is if it's specifically connected to US.
I, for one am perfectly fine with Ardenweald not being ours (or specific to us at all), not being a true symmetrical systemic mirror to the Emerald Dream as it doesn't have to be. Our Wild Gods and nature spirits are connected to Azeroth so they inhabit the Emerald Dream (when they are not awakened and are within our actual reality), but every nature spirit goes to Ardenweald because there is only one, near (if not) infinite one. That is fine! It still acts as a mirror of our Emerald Dream within the Great Cycle, one side is segmented the other is united. If the lack of perfect mirror symmetry doesn't perfectly fit nature I don't know what does, it's not Order, after all-but it is Order that made one half, the Emerald Dream so even that asymmetry may be the effect of the Order's interference which is an interesting thought.
Shadowlands lore doesn't have to be bad, the concepts are sound but they are complex so they require a lot more examples and explanation for many people to be able to make sense and fit the whole picture. Maybe not all the devs even know-which is a scary thought and opens the door for many mistakes further causing problems which will be misrepresented by players who couldn't or more likely refused to work with Shadowlands-but it is, its foundations are very workable. We simply need more of Shadowlands-which we of course won't get, but there is a critical mass after which it would make sense and work perfectly. This is my evaluation.
Saying now that the Shadowlands we were shown isn't part of the realm of Death would not work for many reasons. Even if we take out Zereth Mortis as an exception, the scale is too big, infinite for it to be connected to us specifically. We can, however very easily say that what we did see was the Reality-facing part of the realm of Death that was made specifically to handle Anima from all beings of all of the infinite Realities, including ours. That doesn't necessarily make it part of our Reality, or part of all Realities per se, in fact it probably shouldn't be, but at this point that's just semantics. What this means is that the Realm of Death can still house many more things, similar vehicles to handle the dead of other major realms like Order or Shadow (when they truly die), or could be the place where the First Ones are. There still is a distinction between the Shadowlands beyond the veil and on our side of it, so everything said above still stands.
I'd like to think of the Shadowlands as some kind of purgatory or entry way to the Death Realm. Something where the Eternal ones and the Arbiter "save" the souls from eternal death? Shadowlands was mostly about souls being able to redeem themselves right? I mean I'm absolutely clueless about what the death realm is actually about but I would assume it's "the end"? I just have no idea how the First Ones play into this lol
If we could get an authentic realm of death separate from what the Shadowlands is, I think that would be sick AF tbh.
Tali working overtime to fix shadowlands lore, I really like your theory about who "the first ones" are
I like the idea that the shadowlands is the reoriginated version…
The Titans are the first ones, and it’s been a lie, this explanation gives Zoval a real reason why he is such a spaz.
My biggest question is this: what does the Arcane realm use to convert World Souls into the Titans we are familiar with?
If the Titan we know of are, in actuality, World souls converted to Order/Arcane and the Old Gods are all attempting to convert World Souls into Void Titans, then Old Gods are NOT equivalent to Titans. They would be the means to create a particular type of Titan. If that is the case, there should logically be something out there that turns World Souls toward Order/Arcane. Or at least, there should have been at the beginning.
It could be that the Shadowlands we'd experienced _were_ actually in our reality, and it was only when we went into Zereth Mortis that we actually stepped into a reality that isn't our universe. --- Which leans into why I think that the _Jailer_ was a stalking-horse/tool setup by _Primus_ and _The Master_ in order to break into Zereth Mortis. The point of the _Jailer_ was to be defeated so the heroes would then leave to face other enemies, letting _Primus_ step into the power vacuum.
...If Titans are arcane, then wouldn't they have a lot in common with the Abberations that were invading parts of the Shadowlands? The creatures like the Gorger and the flying icky things.. which were basically arcane versions of the Drust monsters... huh..
Not sure if anyone else mentioned this but… If shadowlands is part of our reality that would explain why kyrians are there as well. It’s still part of the same reality. (Spirit healers part)
While I applaud the extra axis, they really did kinda mess up a bit with labeling "Arcane" as order and 'Void' as chaos....Arcane isn't the only order aligned force. Light and Death are also very much aligned with order. Meanwhile Not just void, but also Life and Fel are chaos aligned.
Really they just goofed up trying to retcon the titans original plans into an expanded cosmology...
Trolls are a native race to Azeroth and old gods had nothing to do with them at all, most likely they were created through the native Spirit that Azeroth was found to hold.
Interesting approach. I expected a fun lore talk but that's quite interesting. I just wondered where would you put Elune in this perspective? What is Elune really? (I said Void Lady once ;b)
I like this, and I agree that the Shadowlands works much better as not part of the Death Realm (but where does that put Zereth Mortis I wonder). My only "problem" with the logic in this segment is that I don't think it follows that every cosmological force should be equivalent or have equivalent processes/goals. Like, yeah, the Titans probably have a similar role to the Old Gods in the specific sense of finding and shaping World Souls, but I do not think that means that Life and Light and Death necessarily also have to have those equivalences (Tali didn't directly say this, but I got the feeling that chat was starting to lean towards this reasoning at some points).
If you start looking for parallels between every cosmological force you'll end up missing what makes them all unique and interesting.
Anyway, great video, as always!
Yeah I still revisit the BfA zones on both islands, they are sooooooo good
If you split the top and bottom of the cosmological chart. The bottom is Titans, Light and Death.
The Titans is Ordered creation and Death is ordered Destruction with the light being an omnipresent force that can have the power to order and over death.
Opposite to that, the top half is Life, Void and Fel.
Life is disordered Creation and Fel is disordered Destruction. Void being the unordered Antithesis to Light.
So it would be safe to assume Titans and Archons are actually created by the First ones which are beings of Order. Titans are classed as the faction of “Order” but are actually just the force tasked with it.
I think the Light controls The Shadowlands and The Titans. They are the first ones. The void gods being the creators masters of Life and Fel.
The forces are not perfectly in alignment and are basically act like natural opposing forces but the they are in alignment overall
Didnt finish the video yet so i dont know if Tali mentions this. But remember that Aluneth is an arcane entity trapped within the staff.. and i dont think thats a titan
Hmm. Well from what all we know Old Gods are on the same level of a Titan Keeper.
If the twisting nether is a schism of the fel plane and our reality, couldn’t the shadowlands be the same thing? Like, it’s NOT the realm of death, but it is.
I'm confused with the purpose of Eonar. The titans were about constructs and order. Wouldn't plants and lesser creatures born of flesh still be a taboo against the Titans? It's weird to me that the Pantheon have a Titan dedicated to an aspect that they themselves would deem chaotic and destructive.
Titans and old gods not being equal in literal "power" doesn't mean they're not equivalent beings. I'm saying this as a mental exercise, not an argument. Think of a civ in civilization--each civ is good at different things. One might be able to stomp everyone in military power, but one might be equally compelling with culture. A gun is powerful but so is deception, manipulation, etc.
The titans may be able to kamehameha an old god, but old gods are ridiculously hard to kill, and they return easily, and they corrupt whole nations, races, planets... In terms of the titans goals and the old gods goals, they could be equally matched just with different tools.
At 27:10, you're describing charitable listening, and it's absolutely a tool used for better communicating, and people suck at it lmao
The question I've always wondered is what is the Titan or old got equivalent for nature and fel and the others? And what would be the void Lord equivalent of those Cosmic forces as well we haven't even began to discuss those.
The Titans might be the Arcane gods still but were able to reborn themselves through world souls
Blizzard doesn't deserve that curiosity when they openly admit that they aren't held to any standards of upholding lore.
I would imagine the titans’ power is on par with the void lords, not the old gods. Remember, yshaarj, the most powerful of the old gods was simply and easily plucked out of Azeroth by aman’thal. The issue that caused on the planet was never a threat to them, only their creations and their plans for Azeroth.
The titans now are ghosts (for lack of a better word) of their original selves, and nowhere near as powerful as they were when alive. When alive, they literally have the power to cleave planets in two, as Sargeras demonstrated in the past, and almost again with Azeroth.
In fact, I believe chronicle (if anything in there is actually still canon) stated that even the void lords couldn’t stop the titans, which is the whole reason for them trying to corrupt a world soul therefore gaining an ally with titan powers and void lords powers…pretty much unstoppable.
Im always against the idea that an emerald dream expansion wouldnt make a great expansion because "it would all be green" - whilst you wouldnt have zones or areas that were artificially damaged or polluted, life strives in myriad forms but cant change things like geography and climate zones. That still doesnt stop a dessert being full of life, that doesnt stop say a race of giant bugs that decimate forests evolving because theres ass loads of trees everywhere, and until it was sorted out *in a book* and later *in a single raid* there was always the shadow in the dream, the nightmare, twisting and changing things for its benefit.
I dont think it falls into the same bucket as a world corrupted by fel, which would indeed be very similar as its a very monochrome aesthetic.
I think I have the most simplistic view on what I Titan is. A Titan is just a being that is born from a World-Soul, and that's it. Which cosmic power that is infused within a Titan is irrelevant to them being a Titan. At this point, the idea that a Cosmic power can be artificially infused in to a Titan is a given. It's the goal of the Old Gods (according to the Dreadlords before corruption of Sargeras), has been demonstrated in-game by the Dreadlords' machinations with Argus, implied with the Fel corruption of Sargeras, and speculated as the intent behind the Titan engines that are being used to shape Azeroth. What is _not_ a given is whether-or-not a Titan is born either with, or inclined towards, a particular cosmic power.
In lore, we know that Aman'thul was the first to awaken, and I believe that both he and Norgannon are Order Titans, I still refuse to accept that Eonar and Khaz'goroth are. Those two seem to have the creation ideology of Life. Even pre-corruption Sargeras and Aggrammar also seem to miss the mark of being of Order. Both of them being more martial and defined as having a strong sense of justice and conviction, two aspects that make more sense with the Light.
I still maintain that Aman'thul has raised the other Titans of the Pantheon to believe that they are beings of Order in order to increase Order's chance for success.
I also still maintain that the World-Soul that Sargeras destroyed was always meant to be a Void Titan and the Dreadlords manipulated the "lies" Aman'thul already fed him to create discord amongst the Cosmic powers in addition to it being a ploy to take the Pantheon's strongest away from them.
wonder why the agents of "Order domain" (titans) would want to make everything ordered?
I guess I'm just wondering if there is room for the Titans to want to order the cosmos via making sure it is balanced
interesting, i saw the titans as the equivalent to the death pantheon and the void lords, but having them as the order version of old gods would be something aswell. So amanthul is the order being who trys to hatch his his titan minions, like some void lord has their old gods. WHilst there are order and void lords who aint use that mechanic at all. As we see with cosmic void magic, perhaps the counter part to that is celestial order magic as they seem to fit thematicly to them and they some how always been there to help out as exterminators in their machinerys.
Well the said the Shadowlands pantheon were Titan level ++, so that could mean that the titans aren't god level like the Death Pantheon, Void Lords, and Elder Narru.
Hmm, this is an interesting thought exercise
I fee like all cosmological forces are not equal.
Light and Void are the main forces - Essentially Raw Energy and Entropy
From there, the Light and the Void could be split into 2 manifestations of each.
Life + Fel - The Creation Energy vs the Destruction Energy.
Likewise Void is Entropy
Arcane + Death - The shaping/forming of energy by subtraction...Arcane is like sculpting vs Death the decay and erosion of physical and spirit/anima
ALTERNATIVELY
Fel was once described as the raw energy that results when Light and Void annihilate each other which could suggest, that Arcane, being the opposite of that, is when Light and Void are somehow woven together.
Fun stuff
Are we sure that Titans are the arcane equivalent to Old Gods and not Void Lords? Dimensius, a known void lord, seems to have been "born" from the planet of K'aresh in a way reminiscent to how Titans are born from worlds.
Also, Keepers seems to serve the same purpose as Old Gods, I.E. converting a world soul to their side of the cosmic powers.
Ii always considered "Mana" to be the "Void-Lords" of the arcane
Maybe the Titans want Azeroth so badly because if they birth her, she will be the Void Lord equivalent of an Arcane being. They can only manifest an Arcane Lord in reality via Azeroth’s soul/body.
So our only encountered world soul is then Argus? I wonder if any of the other realities border each other, or if our reality is the only place where they collide. I wonder if there are borders directly between nature and light, for instance... because those two together sound a lot like Elune to me. (it looks like they do border in the chart directly, but hard to be sure)
Things that must happen, cosmology-wise. Azeroth should prove to be a being affiliated with Life, not Light. She is literally the Earth-mother, and light is boring. Sargeras should not be redeemed by his brothers. Being changed on a fundamental level by the power he unleashed from Mar'dum would add into that "worldsoul alignment" thing Blizzard seems to be introducing. Amd Xallie should be made to result from the corruption of a Worldsoul
its more likely that the old gods are corrupted titans idk if it still has it but when hearthstone released its yogg saron card recently it had the type titan