This makes a lot more sense. I recall holding out with assass until icc and always been top 3 in my guild and was wondering if i was just a gaming god back then.
Just some minor things regarding T7: MM Hunters are not really a thing until mid / late Ulduar and until then SV is definitely superior. Also, enhancement shamans when played as spellhancement (slightly adjusted talents, spellpower weapons + double flametongue) are actually capable of competing for top DPS on many fights making them an A tier for sure, which is also true for the Ulduar patch btw :)
This is all incorrect. There's actually another tier above S and it's called G for God Tier. For some reason only Affliction warlocks are on it. I don't know why, I didn't make the rules and I'm not biased in any way. 😅
not rly on naxx season, they have very good scaling but without gear they arent as powerful as demo but on uld season they became better ...And UDK should be on god list in toc season, like thats the best dps thanks to his spec bonus
Very good video Toyhouze. One thing if you dont mind. It would be cool when talking about certain ability classes to have a nice picture of it with the icon and what it does. Anyways , amazing video
I don't know how much Wrath you play but Survival and Enhance are in the wrong spots. Survival should be S-tier (at least up until like ToGC or ICC) and Enh should be either S or A. Spellhance is literally a top 3 spec DPSers without a doubt. Balance on the other hand is lower than those, so don't know why you put them higher.
I used to play WOTLK privates too, and on both of them, survival was god tier in both pvp and PVE. Nice on-demand sustained damage for a medium manacost, survivability at its best and versatility for open world farming. Judge me, but i love me some survival.
I played lock in wotlk can confirm I was consistently top dps most tiers it was a high skill cap high reward plausible with snapshotting dots and the sheer amount of important dots you had to keep up
I have the same experience with playing rogue in a top EU guild. Consistently topped metters but it was high skill cap high reward, due mostly to the pace of gameplay and positioning.
@@arkeez1181 as a dk in the era I can confirm that any poorly played locks or rogues could not compete with me in any tier of raiding. Well played ones I could not keep up with until I got my 4pc t9
Would you consider doing a video as this for healers? I was a pve holy priest in wrath, never played since and now years later I'm shocked how holy priest considered the worst healer everywhere in nearly every expansion, I remember I was always at the top of the meters and never felt a struggle, mind you it was more than 10 years ago...
But isn't this all in flux depending on which development stage they choose for starting point (that is, which changes thru the expansion are implemented when, and whether they make some new changes that we are not aware of)? There is nothing to stop them from implementing a latter stage of the expansion for class rules rather than exactly what was there from the beginning, and they DO have a history of doing this.
Would be interesting to see the percentage of warriors, rets, and DK’s who actually acquired shadowmourne. But then again average players aren’t going to get it but they’re also competing against average players. I remember doing really well as ret with just the ICC 4set in pugs and with the poverty tier guild I was in back then. So basically it’s all relative.
@@newworld8546 Glaives and thunderfury are quite different since you get them before the end of the game, especially thunderfury which you (can) get super early.
@@biermuschi8183 Elemental goes from nothing but Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning, to Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Flame Shock, Lava Burst, and Fire Nova... Going from 2 spells on a 2 spell set rotation of 4LB-CL (or 3LB-CL depending on gear) to a proc-based priority system with 5 spells is a hell of a big change.
Hmmm I don’t think so …we are about to step into BT and that’ll be for like 3-4 months so come spring we have sunwell that will be 3-4 months …which means come late summer or fall we should have wotlk …so this year
In ICC Frost does higher single target DPS than Unholy. This also doesn't apply for WotLK Classic, because it will be 3.3.5, which made specs like Unholy far weaker because Scourge Strike got nerfed into the ground.
What is this data based on? Private server? Retail launches? I ask because we're more than likely to get a wrath classic that uses the final wrath balancing/patch as we have had for TBC/Vanilla, which will greatly change how class/spec power fluctuates tier by tier
Worth noting, the gap between tiers is much lower than say TBC and most rotations a bit more effort. So a B tier DPS in WotLK can still top meters if better geared and more skilled.
this is super important to emphasize. The only person who would only consistently beat me would be one specific DK, or rogue, or mage in my guild. I was ret and largely very well geared, and I consistently performed through the entire expansion. The gap between classes was shrunk so well that you’re gonna find so many raids where the top don’t always show up as the S tier in any video you’ll find on RUclips. Sadly the bottom tiers are accurate
Really informative video with a lot of detail. The only question I have is if you accounted that we will probably get the last patch in wotk which means buffs for spriests and others, and nerfs to dks and others
Guys, chose your main by trying out every class yourself, no need to check a tierlist made by someone else. Your main = your preference. This is a really great tierlist for alts tho. Nice video :)
I for one appreciate those vids because i dont remember which class performed how in which tier and i intend to play a few, it helps to make a decision. If you want to raid and carry your weight, that is :)
Survival below Marks in T7? Bold. Especially because you open the video with explaining the spec disparity as a result of armor pen availability on gear. And both mage specs being B tier in Ulduar...? The T8 4p for Fire Mages is insane
As a blood dps DK back in the day im surprised by these rankings. I firmly remember being on top of DPS by a landslide even after the bug fixes and nerfs to heart strike and pestilence.
Same I was very rarely ever not top dps in our raids back then and if i wasnt it was usually cuz I goofed the timing of a cd or something or it was a patchwerk fight and our feral druid was just untouchable at that point
Blood DK was a dps spec back in the days until ICC (when they redesigned blood to be a tank spec). He's most likely rating them considering the fact we are going to get 3.3.5 patch for talent/balancing, just like we got last patch talent/balancing for classic wow and tbc.
This was what i remember as well. My guild was top 3 on server and our blood DK was always topping or near topping dps once armor pen gear was more available.
@@lankeysob Exactly! Stacked armor pen with DBW was insane. Multi target was great, and you had dot crits with right sigil. I firmly remember DRW with 2 dots hitting multiple targets for insane numbers. I know I ran unholy for a min. here and there, but blood was just insanely good.
Cuz the last video was based only on ICC rankings. Which are not actually relevant when we talk about the general performance of classes during the whole expansion.
Need a version of this assuming 3.3.5 for all tiers. E.g., who was strong in Naxx when gear wasn’t as good as it was in ICC? Which classes are gear dependent (fury) and which are not?
talking about 3.3.5 for all tiers, is quite the same affl lock still rocks it same as assa in early tiers, survival is one of the spects that also get bennefits with low stats, but the board dont change too much
ENH shamans does more then balance for sure :) we have 3 balance druids arnd 2 enh shamans in the raid grp. Both shamans deal over 7k+ meanwhile balance 6-6,5. Its still kinda early and each person have max 2-3bis items but still i would bet my money that enh is stronger.
@@arrrrrghimapirate all the videos I have been watching have enh at top 5 or higher dps in early phases then dropping off because of scaling. ele will not beat anyone let alone get in a raid cause all the buffs are covered by higher dps and better buffs.
@@shockzgaminghd686 whatever you say bro. I was a great raider at that time and very few people were ahead of me as ele from TOC through ICC. Even when i ran with the actual top guild on my server i only lost to the shadowmourne carriers and ferals. Usually finished top 3 and pretty much always top 5
I could be wrong but I think Enhance shaman by the time they get ICC gear is very competitive (maybe could be top 5 on damage meters if played correctly) Ele sham is mediocre the entire expansion.
I wouldn't be so sure about. I've checked several such tier lists so far and Toyz favors hunters immensely. All the others I've seen consider Marksman to be a weaker fury, i.e. completely useless early on and then slowly becoming a very good spec, but never reaching the heights of fury. So a tier ranking of D,C,B,A is what the other tier lists put marks. Surv also is a lot higher, the other lists put it at B, B, C, C. What's most puzzling to me is BM as C-Tier. Every other list puts it at D-Tier throughout, being one of the worst dps specs the entire expansion. So either toyz source is very hunter biased or several other lists underestimate hunter.
Can you please explain why I've seen/heard you say mage arcane empowerment making BM ferocious inspiration obsolete? They are both 3%. Again, you've said this multiple times and I'm not sure why.
BM does incredibly low damage but it brings a 3% damage buff, and in TBC it's the only one that brings it, in Wrath it's brought by Arcade Mages and Ret Pallies, so it isn't even worth bringing for that
Rogue best consistent dps class overall of Wrath if you look at all the tiers. You asked the question "what CLASS is best throughout the entire expansion?", and then you didn't merge the specs for each class. This is an error. When you compare one SPEC to each other, that doesn't answer the question you initially asked. For example, a dedicated rogue will typically start the expansion as Assa and then respec during Ulduar to Combat. I made the simple maths based on your spec rankings (i've taken the best result of each class for each tiers) and the true expansion class rankings are the following: 1 - Rogue 1 1 2 1 = 1.25 2 - Warlock 1 1 3 1 = 1.5 2 - DK 1 2 1 2 = 1.5 2 - Druid 2 1 2 1 = 1.5 3 - Mage 1 3 2 1 = 1.75 4 - Hunter 2 2 2 2 = 2 5 - Warrior 3 3 2 1 = 2.25 6 - Paladin 3 3 3 1 = 2.5 6 - Priest 2 3 3 2 = 2.5 7 - Shaman 3 3 3 4 = 3.25
well yea, Assa rogue is like top tier , probably the best single target dps but thats all , he doesnt give any buffs to raid so many raids dont want him but combat instead
@@Syleion When assa is top tiers, warriors are playing arms instead of fury because it's better dps. And arms spec provides the +4% phys dmg that Combat rogue provides. So no, you are wrong, raids will not want combat instead of assa. Don't forget that in Wotlk, buffs are brought by multiple classes so as long as you have all the buffs, you can take whatever best dps you can get. And assa is top tiers
@@Syleion Wow, do you even know the game? Are you aware that there are multiple tiers during Wotlk, not only ICC? Watch the video once more. Don't spread out misinformation.
Lately there is many videos on this topic (from retail players, or from private servers), but I don't see one close as it should be. Very inaccurate information especially for end game WotLK.
I think if one creates such a list (you are not to blame) I may would have in mind like... how easy is my access to gear? What's the matter if DK is the best POTENTIAL DPS Spec if I have to wait for my bis gear for serveral weeks if my Elemental Shaman gets gear for good...
Is this based on PServers? I was raiding in a top tier guild back in original wotlk and Blood DK was the absolute go to in Ulduar with Armor penetration, with entry level gear you could play frost or maybe UH, but Blood dominated that tier.
DKs have been nerfed throughout the entire expansion, same as warrior. Wotlk Classic will be on 3.3.5 patch, with all those nerfs already applied. You will definitely not have the same experience as original Wotlk.
Question: From my understanding Frost DKs need DW with 2 slow 1h weapons. I'm having quite a lot of trouble finding those in T7. Can you guys help me out?
Enh shaman in C tier is a joke. He should be A at least. He deal alot of single and decent aoe dmg and gives 10% ap buff for raid(only blood tank and mm hunt gives it but no mm hunt since toc and not everybody has a blood tank). Hunter should be S tier whole time. Very useful and good dps.
Feral will never be S tier, Feral is the hardest spec to play and the difference between a good feral and bad feral is literally top of meters to bottom of meters. Balance is completely crit dependent on doing damage for procs. If they aren't critting, they aren't proccing, they aren't doing big damage. Frost and Unholy are Equal through each raid tier and gear differently. Both bring huge raid buffs/debuffs and one of each is necessary. Enhance is second hardest spec to play behind feral cat and is the same, can either be top or bottom depending on the player. Destro is only good in naxx until you get enough haste to switch to Affli. You bring only ONE demo lock for the SP buff they provide to the raid and they're damage is mid-high tier. Naxx and Ulduar, affli is going to be your top damage spec. Fire mage does not start well at all and requires 40% crit and 12% haste to even start doing damage, making them the lowest damage in naxx, mid in ulduar, and top after TOC into ICC. Fury WILL NOT DO ANY GOOD DAMAGE until full Ulduar BiS or toc due to arpen dependency. MM is also Arpen dependant and low damage till late ulduar/early toc, survival starts off much higher. Retribution will always be mid tier and only necessary in ICC due to AOE stun on trash packs. Arcane does Top damage both Naxx and Ulduar, stacking haste in naxx and switching to crit and 4p T8 to go fire in ulduar. I suggest playing the xpac before making tier lists.
couldn’t be bothered reading the rest of your essay after the first sentence, but if ur trying to base a spec’s placement based on player skill in a tier list.. lol
If woltk Classic is coming out, i will okay Hunter! The old SV Hunter was sooo nice, and later i can swap MM. And it is cool to Troll ppl with aggro xD
Naxx Survival and MM are... ahead of Feral early on... what ? Bit confused unless im VERY much mistaken, in what world that early on is Feral dps so low that its fighting Ele, Arms, Fire (That cant rly be played due to lack of gear) and even Combat that's not very good early on due to lack of gear. Felt that Feral should be A at the worst at that point, but in truth probably easy S along w/ Aff and Arcane that early. Im not bashing you, its a nice clip for sure, well made, you are very easy to understand, but... cant rly agree. Again, could be very wrong since the last time I played Wotlk was when it was retail, but..iv seen multiple "Guides" and iv not seen Feral this low at any point in Wotlk. Again, not bashing and sorry if its coming off that way, but if you have the time I would like to hear why you think (For my personally knowledge) Feral is that bad early on ? And I fully understand this should not be taken as FACT but your opinion ofc.
That was 3.3.5 and if blizzard follows their path from classic vanilla and tbc classic they will. They basically are using the patches the p servers use. That being said unholy/blood may be better for naxx, but from then out unholy/frost will be king
Feels wierd that ur reason for ret pally being S tier in ICC is "they have access to shadowmourne" but you fail to mention what really brings them online is the 2 piece set bonus of T10.
Agreed, out of all the classes that can use Shadowmourne I'd say Ret gets the least out of it due to not having a huge reliance on ArmPen, the 2 set bonus tho, incredibly powerful.
bm hunter in naxx and ulduar is acctaully good and can do better then mm and survival idk why you put it in c tier tbh makes no sence but ovverall good list
Very nice video! What I don't understand though is why Enhance Shaman is so low in tier 10? If Armor pen stacking is so good at this tier, why is shaman so low compared to the other melee? :(
Pretty sure they want to stack Agi in T10 due to spell power scaling. A talent gives them spell power for a % of AP but could be wrong. AP scales off Agi in the later release of wotlk and not strength. Because they use more spells, flametongue, lava lash, there is less need for armpen. Although once testing goes ahead, who knows 🤷🏻♂️
Dont give a thing on these lists. If you really into your specc you will be above other speccs that should technically do more dps according to this list. So even when enhance is set here on C or B Tier it can become A and above others when played correctly and with dedication.
@@ttr9668 you can't compare specc a (played correctly) and specc b (not played correctly). that's not how it works. if both played at the same lvl specc a (enhance) will be worse than specc b (i.e. mm hunter). you always assume that both speccs are played correctly.
IDK about putting Blood DK's in the bottom tier for Naxx. Obliterate was hitting like a truck. Our top DPS was a blood DK back then. We were not raid logging until after she quit, but some of the guys she was out DPSing were putting up top 100 in the world parses. If played right, a blood DK can do some serious work.
Prot pally best by a mile Blood 2nd for single target threat gen Feral close 3rd to blood. Lacks strong cds Warrior 4th and not close to feral after t7 they do not have the utility to come to the other 3 starting in ulduar getting progressively worse compared to the others. Dont base any of your choices on tanking from heroics or t7 they are both complete jokes.
@@sebastianmonzon6285 Poorly opinionated rankings Here's the real one 1. Prot Pally and 2H Frost, both competing for best tank because they're both pretty much equal, Frost having access to very powerful mitigation abilities, talents and well, lots of fucking threat generation. 2. Blood, its sustain, mitigation, and threat gen is good but 2h frost beats it by a landslide. 3. Prot Warrior, Only sits at this spot because the above are in a league of their own, A good spec nonetheless, having many decent CDs, good threat gen, some decent AoE, and some decent mitigation. 4. Not unplayable, nor bad, Just the worst tank out of all of them, Feral Bear, You get no block, no parry, only dodges, not all bosses can be dodged, and if a bear gets hit they will get hit pretty hard even if it isnt a crit, But if ya can gear it right, Feral will do just fine. But if you want to be able to survive anything other than a horde of adds or some bosses, then start considering picking prot warrior, blood, 2h frost, or prot pally. Especially the two latter ones. 5. Frost DW, Don't even bother because you're wasting talent points into abilities that are better spent elsewhere. It works just that i think you should switch to 2h frost.
@@Egghead012 not even close and this was a summation. I could easily go into detail. But you are 100%wrong about frost dk. They lack so many important aspects that allow blood to shine. Doesn't really matter, my point was warrior and druid at bottom. Running icy veins with buffs to IT is needed so if you were confusing that to me saying blood was better without taking the buffs that's what I meant. Still considered blood going down to will of Necro and vampiric blood and abom might. If you don't know that you haven't played 3.3.5 in a very long time.
@@zigzagofdoom Most of the time yeah, but some fights do have threat issues, hardmode general when the saronite spawns people will pull 15-20k dps in ulduar its kinda hard to hold aggro there. Overall tanking is easy just communication becomes more of a factor when cycling out cd's on hard hitting bosses between the tanks
Maybe my memory is deceiving me, but I remember Blood being hella viable DPS in 3.3.5a, especially with high armor pen. Maybe not to the same level as Unholy or Frost, but even with Blood's DPS nerfs through the expansion, I still remember Blood DKs being middle of the pack. They were definitely above sub rogues, frost mages, and arms Warriors. I think I even remember some theory crafting putting Shadowmourne armor pen blood above Shadowmourne frost or unholy. It seems like everyone's Wrath guides have completely forgotten that all 3 DK specs can be tank and DPS in Wrath (to varying levels of success).
Weird. I watched two tier lists back to back, and the other guy had Enhance as an A tier during Naxx. In fact you're rating Enhance far lower than pretty much every tier list. I've never seen them below B tier, and they are usually in A tier. They're NEVER below Elemental either. I'm guessing you've only played with bad Enhancers.
This is a weird list. All of it is very accurate based on 3.3.5 blizzlike private servers, but Enhc Shaman is S tier in Naxx, not C lol. That spec is completely broken with little gear, but has poor scaling, so it falls off the further into the game you go. S tier, in Naxx, A in Ulduar etc.etc. And that's just regular Enhc (with physical weapons), Spellhance (using spell weapons/trinkets/jewelry instead of agi) is the spec with THE HIGHEST potential in Naxx, assuming you get to take caster gear over actual casters, ignoring fringe situations like a single Lock getting fed every Tricks and PI available. I don't understand how you got everything else spot on, but managed to missplace Enhancement to such a degree. Oh, Frost DK is S tier in Ulduar aswell. That's when they are the strongest, because Frost DKs are stuck with 213 weapons as BiS in Naxx (when most specs can get 226 weps), while they can access 232s in Ulduar.
I main Hunter in TBC currently, but I'm having a ton of fun leveling my Rogue on Warmane so we'll see how things shape up as we approach WotLK and I get some experience raiding with the Rogue. I originally started playing WoW in late Cata maining Feral DPS, so that's a comfortable option for me as well.
No mention of the mechanical reason why melee physical DPS suddenly shot up at end game. My memory still works well. The reason multilate and feral held up high early was that bleed builds were fine and muti was poison. But once Arpen hit which was a stackable (Blizz got stung with stacking) then haste/arpen ruled. And it made the game turn into a degenerate mess. Ferals ditched bleeds, Combat stepped over muti, Fury went literally from zero to hero, frost DK died and the saddest of all, Ret pallies and their degenerate player base who thought they had become skillful, showed to be fantastic at autoattacks with their fancy legendary. Best and worst times of wow, depending on what class you were.
great way to make a tier list for wrath. definitely very volatile between specs each raid tier so it's useless to do a tier list without breaking down like you did. I'll just say that on some private servers unholy was very far ahead of frost, mostly due to gargoyle dmg being crazy. we'll have to wait and see if it was a pserver mistake or ppl just didn't knew how to abuse gargoyle back then
![[DOKKAN BATTLE] Worldwide Campaign Announcement Video](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zxfEiMksZQs/mqdefault.jpg)
much better guide than your last tier list! makes alot more sense now :D people can realise how long each class is good for! nice video
Hell ya can’t wait, I’m gonna main elemental for WoTLK
This makes a lot more sense. I recall holding out with assass until icc and always been top 3 in my guild and was wondering if i was just a gaming god back then.
Just some minor things regarding T7: MM Hunters are not really a thing until mid / late Ulduar and until then SV is definitely superior. Also, enhancement shamans when played as spellhancement (slightly adjusted talents, spellpower weapons + double flametongue) are actually capable of competing for top DPS on many fights making them an A tier for sure, which is also true for the Ulduar patch btw :)
Yup
This is all incorrect. There's actually another tier above S and it's called G for God Tier. For some reason only Affliction warlocks are on it.
I don't know why, I didn't make the rules and I'm not biased in any way. 😅
well tell your truth
not rly on naxx season, they have very good scaling but without gear they arent as powerful as demo but on uld season they became better ...And UDK should be on god list in toc season, like thats the best dps thanks to his spec bonus
I’d love to see a pvp tier list per season !
Remember when Affliction Warlocks were so strong you could bring as many of them as possible as dps for 0 light yogg?
You improved quite a bit with these lists of yours. Gratz man !
Thank you!
Thanks for making this! I’m priest healer main forever, but I’m always looking to see what my alt should be!
spriest sound good to broo
Very good video Toyhouze. One thing if you dont mind. It would be cool when talking about certain ability classes to have a nice picture of it with the icon and what it does. Anyways , amazing video
Agree! :)
I don't know how much Wrath you play but Survival and Enhance are in the wrong spots. Survival should be S-tier (at least up until like ToGC or ICC) and Enh should be either S or A. Spellhance is literally a top 3 spec DPSers without a doubt. Balance on the other hand is lower than those, so don't know why you put them higher.
I used to play WOTLK privates too, and on both of them, survival was god tier in both pvp and PVE. Nice on-demand sustained damage for a medium manacost, survivability at its best and versatility for open world farming.
Judge me, but i love me some survival.
Yeah as hardmode private server player it baffles me how all these tier lists overlook spellhance shaman, its so good in phase 1
@@joshkenck5427 You were better than the players in your guild. No boomkin is topping meters now.
any ideas of videos to watch to see dps rank? like tier list but that is more acurate
Ret 2 Piece Tier 10 will forever be the most broken 2 set bonus, change my mind.
This is the best parady wow channel I've ever seen. 10/10 tier list
Loved that. Started play affli weeks ago and after you become a dps with over 4k gs, it totally rocks anything
Can we get a link to that weighted averages thing? I would like to have that bookmarked somewhere if possible.
Yep, I remember being Survival on my hunter until transitioning to Marksmanship later. Sounds about right.
I played lock in wotlk can confirm I was consistently top dps most tiers it was a high skill cap high reward plausible with snapshotting dots and the sheer amount of important dots you had to keep up
I have the same experience with playing rogue in a top EU guild. Consistently topped metters but it was high skill cap high reward, due mostly to the pace of gameplay and positioning.
@@arkeez1181 as a dk in the era I can confirm that any poorly played locks or rogues could not compete with me in any tier of raiding. Well played ones I could not keep up with until I got my 4pc t9
Would you consider doing a video as this for healers? I was a pve holy priest in wrath, never played since and now years later I'm shocked how holy priest considered the worst healer everywhere in nearly every expansion, I remember I was always at the top of the meters and never felt a struggle, mind you it was more than 10 years ago...
You do not want to play hpriest (esp naxx tier) in wotlk. A raid MAY have enough room for 1 if AoE heals are lacking. Disco is the way to go.
Assa is better then a B in ICC. Haste scaling at that point is off the chain
@@parkerfrode5101 Yeah I agree, combat S, assas A I think is more fair though. Thanks for the reply! Cheers
What do you mean by "off the chain" ?
But isn't this all in flux depending on which development stage they choose for starting point (that is, which changes thru the expansion are implemented when, and whether they make some new changes that we are not aware of)? There is nothing to stop them from implementing a latter stage of the expansion for class rules rather than exactly what was there from the beginning, and they DO have a history of doing this.
Would be interesting to see the percentage of warriors, rets, and DK’s who actually acquired shadowmourne. But then again average players aren’t going to get it but they’re also competing against average players. I remember doing really well as ret with just the ICC 4set in pugs and with the poverty tier guild I was in back then. So basically it’s all relative.
yea just like how no one was going to level warrior to 60… no one was going to get thunderfury… no one was going to get glaives. lmfao
@@newworld8546 Glaives and thunderfury are quite different since you get them before the end of the game, especially thunderfury which you (can) get super early.
Rogue + shaman for me. Loved the changes to both enhancement and elemental in wotlk and rogue used to be a beast
Elemental doesn't change at all...
All you have is one more spell in your rotation...
@@biermuschi8183 Elemental goes from nothing but Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning, to Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Flame Shock, Lava Burst, and Fire Nova... Going from 2 spells on a 2 spell set rotation of 4LB-CL (or 3LB-CL depending on gear) to a proc-based priority system with 5 spells is a hell of a big change.
look for spellenhanc build you wont regret it!
With WotLK Classic mostly likely using the 3.3.5 patch for talents/balancing - will this list still hold true?
good point
Saddest part of watching all your vids is being probably close to a year before we can actually play Wotlk D:
Hmmm I don’t think so …we are about to step into BT and that’ll be for like 3-4 months so come spring we have sunwell that will be 3-4 months …which means come late summer or fall we should have wotlk …so this year
Probably have to throw ZA in there somewhere. That may stall Sunwell a little.
@@BiGGyCLD plus the "on farm" peroid after everything is out. Im thinking Nov release. But who knows with wacky ol' blizz.
Ferocious Inspiration by BM hunters is still 3% in wrath.
In ICC Frost does higher single target DPS than Unholy. This also doesn't apply for WotLK Classic, because it will be 3.3.5, which made specs like Unholy far weaker because Scourge Strike got nerfed into the ground.
What is this data based on? Private server? Retail launches?
I ask because we're more than likely to get a wrath classic that uses the final wrath balancing/patch as we have had for TBC/Vanilla, which will greatly change how class/spec power fluctuates tier by tier
Private server damage logs. Hope that helps! And good point, live servers could be different based on the patch used from the start.
@@Toyhouze bingo, exactly the comment I made before reading this. Which version patch can change the results considerably.
What data is this list based from? Is it general numbers? or top percentile? Is this just an opinion?
Worth noting, the gap between tiers is much lower than say TBC and most rotations a bit more effort. So a B tier DPS in WotLK can still top meters if better geared and more skilled.
this is super important to emphasize. The only person who would only consistently beat me would be one specific DK, or rogue, or mage in my guild. I was ret and largely very well geared, and I consistently performed through the entire expansion.
The gap between classes was shrunk so well that you’re gonna find so many raids where the top don’t always show up as the S tier in any video you’ll find on RUclips. Sadly the bottom tiers are accurate
Really informative video with a lot of detail. The only question I have is if you accounted that we will probably get the last patch in wotk which means buffs for spriests and others, and nerfs to dks and others
Thank you, I did not account for that.
Using patch 3.3.5 for this
Yeah spriests are gods naxx tier. just behind affli locks.
Guys, chose your main by trying out every class yourself, no need to check a tierlist made by someone else. Your main = your preference. This is a really great tierlist for alts tho.
Nice video :)
I for one appreciate those vids because i dont remember which class performed how in which tier and i intend to play a few, it helps to make a decision. If you want to raid and carry your weight, that is :)
Survival below Marks in T7? Bold.
Especially because you open the video with explaining the spec disparity as a result of armor pen availability on gear.
And both mage specs being B tier in Ulduar...? The T8 4p for Fire Mages is insane
Just remember to come back here in a year when WotLK classic is out
What would the best racial be for pure dps, for say a frost dk?
Id go with orc for axe specialization and blood fury. Draenei for heroic presence hit chance.
For naxx i think ret should be a little higher since it can exo/wrath in nax but cant in uld
Arms warr above destruction in naxx. Topkek.
As a blood dps DK back in the day im surprised by these rankings. I firmly remember being on top of DPS by a landslide even after the bug fixes and nerfs to heart strike and pestilence.
Bis BDK with SM can top dmg meter. 17k+ dps easy...
Same I was very rarely ever not top dps in our raids back then and if i wasnt it was usually cuz I goofed the timing of a cd or something or it was a patchwerk fight and our feral druid was just untouchable at that point
Blood DK was a dps spec back in the days until ICC (when they redesigned blood to be a tank spec). He's most likely rating them considering the fact we are going to get 3.3.5 patch for talent/balancing, just like we got last patch talent/balancing for classic wow and tbc.
This was what i remember as well. My guild was top 3 on server and our blood DK was always topping or near topping dps once armor pen gear was more available.
@@lankeysob Exactly! Stacked armor pen with DBW was insane. Multi target was great, and you had dot crits with right sigil. I firmly remember DRW with 2 dots hitting multiple targets for insane numbers. I know I ran unholy for a min. here and there, but blood was just insanely good.
why did the final tier list change so much from your last video?
Cuz the last video was based only on ICC rankings. Which are not actually relevant when we talk about the general performance of classes during the whole expansion.
Good list but My opinion demo warlock is A in icc
like this guide (thumbs up)
Thank you :)
Need a version of this assuming 3.3.5 for all tiers. E.g., who was strong in Naxx when gear wasn’t as good as it was in ICC? Which classes are gear dependent (fury) and which are not?
talking about 3.3.5 for all tiers, is quite the same affl lock still rocks it same as assa in early tiers, survival is one of the spects that also get bennefits with low stats, but the board dont change too much
ENH shamans does more then balance for sure :) we have 3 balance druids arnd 2 enh shamans in the raid grp. Both shamans deal over 7k+ meanwhile balance 6-6,5. Its still kinda early and each person have max 2-3bis items but still i would bet my money that enh is stronger.
wdym enhacement is C tier on naxx lol
ele is not above enhance in naxx or any other phase
Flatly false. I was ele in ICC and we also had a great enh shammy but she never beat me unless it was a patchwerk fight
@@arrrrrghimapirate all the videos I have been watching have enh at top 5 or higher dps in early phases then dropping off because of scaling. ele will not beat anyone let alone get in a raid cause all the buffs are covered by higher dps and better buffs.
@@shockzgaminghd686 whatever you say bro. I was a great raider at that time and very few people were ahead of me as ele from TOC through ICC. Even when i ran with the actual top guild on my server i only lost to the shadowmourne carriers and ferals. Usually finished top 3 and pretty much always top 5
@@arrrrrghimapirate seems like you have actual experience so I believe it. Do you know how warriors will do in earlier phases?
according to the comments, every class is S or A tier lol
I remember destroying ICC on a ret paladin and people in my group being very mad about that saying I didn’t deserve it.
@@joshkenck5427 Ret spanked in ICC because of the set bonus.
I didnt know this version is available. I only see burning crusade classic and reg classic
Well, good thing I play warlock I guess. Cant wait to have a more interesting rotation than shadow bolt life tap
I love playing as a Destro Warlock, will Destro really gonna be not that much damage ?
Always the fat owl is the best option for support dps!
I could be wrong but I think Enhance shaman by the time they get ICC gear is very competitive (maybe could be top 5 on damage meters if played correctly) Ele sham is mediocre the entire expansion.
Omg the day wotlk classic comes out ulduar all day
I'm going to main mm hunt. Solid, steady all through. And not everyone and their mama is gonna play it.
I wouldn't be so sure about. I've checked several such tier lists so far and Toyz favors hunters immensely. All the others I've seen consider Marksman to be a weaker fury, i.e. completely useless early on and then slowly becoming a very good spec, but never reaching the heights of fury. So a tier ranking of D,C,B,A is what the other tier lists put marks.
Surv also is a lot higher, the other lists put it at B, B, C, C.
What's most puzzling to me is BM as C-Tier. Every other list puts it at D-Tier throughout, being one of the worst dps specs the entire expansion.
So either toyz source is very hunter biased or several other lists underestimate hunter.
MM Hunter is a solid choice. Been playing on warmane since 2016.
In WOTLK, frost death knight was a tank spec. Blood was DPS, and if I played blood and it was badass lol
in wotlk , DK is the only class who can choose whatever spec he wants and he can go tank or dps
This is how tier lists should be done
Wrath is the only expansion where you can just play what you enjoy most
almost. ele sham and holy priests are banned in icc. no invites for them
If crogue have bis tbc list it's be better that asrogue in pre raid?
I'm going to main frost mage as I'm a weird little potato
Unholy tank for me. :). I shall be a strong potato.
Can you please explain why I've seen/heard you say mage arcane empowerment making BM ferocious inspiration obsolete? They are both 3%. Again, you've said this multiple times and I'm not sure why.
BM does incredibly low damage but it brings a 3% damage buff, and in TBC it's the only one that brings it, in Wrath it's brought by Arcade Mages and Ret Pallies, so it isn't even worth bringing for that
Rogue best consistent dps class overall of Wrath if you look at all the tiers.
You asked the question "what CLASS is best throughout the entire expansion?", and then you didn't merge the specs for each class. This is an error.
When you compare one SPEC to each other, that doesn't answer the question you initially asked.
For example, a dedicated rogue will typically start the expansion as Assa and then respec during Ulduar to Combat.
I made the simple maths based on your spec rankings (i've taken the best result of each class for each tiers) and the true expansion class rankings are the following:
1 - Rogue 1 1 2 1 = 1.25
2 - Warlock 1 1 3 1 = 1.5
2 - DK 1 2 1 2 = 1.5
2 - Druid 2 1 2 1 = 1.5
3 - Mage 1 3 2 1 = 1.75
4 - Hunter 2 2 2 2 = 2
5 - Warrior 3 3 2 1 = 2.25
6 - Paladin 3 3 3 1 = 2.5
6 - Priest 2 3 3 2 = 2.5
7 - Shaman 3 3 3 4 = 3.25
Makes a lot of sense. Thanks for this.
well yea, Assa rogue is like top tier , probably the best single target dps but thats all , he doesnt give any buffs to raid so many raids dont want him but combat instead
@@Syleion When assa is top tiers, warriors are playing arms instead of fury because it's better dps. And arms spec provides the +4% phys dmg that Combat rogue provides.
So no, you are wrong, raids will not want combat instead of assa.
Don't forget that in Wotlk, buffs are brought by multiple classes so as long as you have all the buffs, you can take whatever best dps you can get. And assa is top tiers
@@arkeez1181 raids will want combat, cuz arms warr sucks ,if u ever been in a hard core guilds then you´d know
@@Syleion Wow, do you even know the game? Are you aware that there are multiple tiers during Wotlk, not only ICC?
Watch the video once more. Don't spread out misinformation.
I can't wait to dust off my Classic rogue in Wrath!
Please make WoTLK PvP (Arena) Tier list!
What would be the strongest DPS class to play that has the easiest rotation? I like the 2 button classes.
With macro prob FWar! But if you like to play easy classes with not that hard rotation you can pick SP, CRogue or even maybe Unh DK.
@@vladgaming2731 Not two buttons but mages are pretty easy too
arcane mage is the easiest one
Lately there is many videos on this topic (from retail players, or from private servers), but I don't see one close as it should be. Very inaccurate information especially for end game WotLK.
I think if one creates such a list (you are not to blame) I may would have in mind like... how easy is my access to gear?
What's the matter if DK is the best POTENTIAL DPS Spec if I have to wait for my bis gear for serveral weeks if my Elemental Shaman gets gear for good...
Deathknigh text is a little hard to see maybe brighten it up a bit
Is this based on PServers? I was raiding in a top tier guild back in original wotlk and Blood DK was the absolute go to in Ulduar with Armor penetration, with entry level gear you could play frost or maybe UH, but Blood dominated that tier.
DKs have been nerfed throughout the entire expansion, same as warrior. Wotlk Classic will be on 3.3.5 patch, with all those nerfs already applied. You will definitely not have the same experience as original Wotlk.
i would say ICC arpen hardcap fury warrior is a tier on his own
Frost DK one love!!!
Question: From my understanding Frost DKs need DW with 2 slow 1h weapons. I'm having quite a lot of trouble finding those in T7. Can you guys help me out?
Bis weapons from naxx is Silent Crusader that drops from trash mobs
Enh shaman in C tier is a joke. He should be A at least. He deal alot of single and decent aoe dmg and gives 10% ap buff for raid(only blood tank and mm hunt gives it but no mm hunt since toc and not everybody has a blood tank).
Hunter should be S tier whole time. Very useful and good dps.
Feral will never be S tier, Feral is the hardest spec to play and the difference between a good feral and bad feral is literally top of meters to bottom of meters. Balance is completely crit dependent on doing damage for procs. If they aren't critting, they aren't proccing, they aren't doing big damage. Frost and Unholy are Equal through each raid tier and gear differently. Both bring huge raid buffs/debuffs and one of each is necessary. Enhance is second hardest spec to play behind feral cat and is the same, can either be top or bottom depending on the player. Destro is only good in naxx until you get enough haste to switch to Affli. You bring only ONE demo lock for the SP buff they provide to the raid and they're damage is mid-high tier. Naxx and Ulduar, affli is going to be your top damage spec. Fire mage does not start well at all and requires 40% crit and 12% haste to even start doing damage, making them the lowest damage in naxx, mid in ulduar, and top after TOC into ICC. Fury WILL NOT DO ANY GOOD DAMAGE until full Ulduar BiS or toc due to arpen dependency. MM is also Arpen dependant and low damage till late ulduar/early toc, survival starts off much higher. Retribution will always be mid tier and only necessary in ICC due to AOE stun on trash packs. Arcane does Top damage both Naxx and Ulduar, stacking haste in naxx and switching to crit and 4p T8 to go fire in ulduar.
I suggest playing the xpac before making tier lists.
couldn’t be bothered reading the rest of your essay after the first sentence, but if ur trying to base a spec’s placement based on player skill in a tier list.. lol
Is this considering the patch wotlk classic will run on?
Yep!
i believe blood DK with shadowmoure and full penetration actually deal crazy amount of dmg.
If woltk Classic is coming out, i will okay Hunter! The old SV Hunter was sooo nice, and later i can swap MM.
And it is cool to Troll ppl with aggro xD
I don’t know of Immersion is just the best 3.3.5 pve rogue there is but Combat sure ain’t C-tier in Naxx when he is playing it
Naxx Survival and MM are... ahead of Feral early on... what ? Bit confused unless im VERY much mistaken, in what world that early on is Feral dps so low that its fighting Ele, Arms, Fire (That cant rly be played due to lack of gear) and even Combat that's not very good early on due to lack of gear.
Felt that Feral should be A at the worst at that point, but in truth probably easy S along w/ Aff and Arcane that early.
Im not bashing you, its a nice clip for sure, well made, you are very easy to understand, but... cant rly agree. Again, could be very wrong since the last time I played Wotlk was when it was retail, but..iv seen multiple "Guides" and iv not seen Feral this low at any point in Wotlk.
Again, not bashing and sorry if its coming off that way, but if you have the time I would like to hear why you think (For my personally knowledge) Feral is that bad early on ? And I fully understand this should not be taken as FACT but your opinion ofc.
Assuming we're not getting the 3.0 talents and class setups, then the best version of DK won't be possible aka the Frost/Unholy hybrid.
That was 3.3.5 and if blizzard follows their path from classic vanilla and tbc classic they will. They basically are using the patches the p servers use. That being said unholy/blood may be better for naxx, but from then out unholy/frost will be king
Feels wierd that ur reason for ret pally being S tier in ICC is "they have access to shadowmourne" but you fail to mention what really brings them online is the 2 piece set bonus of T10.
Agreed, out of all the classes that can use Shadowmourne I'd say Ret gets the least out of it due to not having a huge reliance on ArmPen, the 2 set bonus tho, incredibly powerful.
bm hunter in naxx and ulduar is acctaully good and can do better then mm and survival idk why you put it in c tier tbh makes no sence but ovverall good list
Very nice video!
What I don't understand though is why Enhance Shaman is so low in tier 10? If Armor pen stacking is so good at this tier, why is shaman so low compared to the other melee? :(
Pretty sure they want to stack Agi in T10 due to spell power scaling. A talent gives them spell power for a % of AP but could be wrong. AP scales off Agi in the later release of wotlk and not strength.
Because they use more spells, flametongue, lava lash, there is less need for armpen.
Although once testing goes ahead, who knows 🤷🏻♂️
Dont give a thing on these lists. If you really into your specc you will be above other speccs that should technically do more dps according to this list. So even when enhance is set here on C or B Tier it can become A and above others when played correctly and with dedication.
@@ttr9668 you can't compare specc a (played correctly) and specc b (not played correctly). that's not how it works. if both played at the same lvl specc a (enhance) will be worse than specc b (i.e. mm hunter). you always assume that both speccs are played correctly.
Enhas, like Rets, don't scale off ArPen as much as Warriors or Rogues or Ferals do
IDK about putting Blood DK's in the bottom tier for Naxx. Obliterate was hitting like a truck. Our top DPS was a blood DK back then. We were not raid logging until after she quit, but some of the guys she was out DPSing were putting up top 100 in the world parses. If played right, a blood DK can do some serious work.
6:03. You are welcome :)
@@AlxSiko I fail to see what tier 9 in ToC has to do with my comment about blood DK's in Naxx.
Would love to see a "best tank by tier" list, if possible! Good format!
Prot pally best by a mile
Blood 2nd for single target threat gen
Feral close 3rd to blood. Lacks strong cds
Warrior 4th and not close to feral after t7 they do not have the utility to come to the other 3 starting in ulduar getting progressively worse compared to the others.
Dont base any of your choices on tanking from heroics or t7 they are both complete jokes.
@@sebastianmonzon6285
Poorly opinionated rankings
Here's the real one
1. Prot Pally and 2H Frost, both competing for best tank because they're both pretty much equal, Frost having access to very powerful mitigation abilities, talents and well, lots of fucking threat generation.
2. Blood, its sustain, mitigation, and threat gen is good but 2h frost beats it by a landslide.
3. Prot Warrior, Only sits at this spot because the above are in a league of their own, A good spec nonetheless, having many decent CDs, good threat gen, some decent AoE, and some decent mitigation.
4. Not unplayable, nor bad, Just the worst tank out of all of them, Feral Bear, You get no block, no parry, only dodges, not all bosses can be dodged, and if a bear gets hit they will get hit pretty hard even if it isnt a crit, But if ya can gear it right, Feral will do just fine. But if you want to be able to survive anything other than a horde of adds or some bosses, then start considering picking prot warrior, blood, 2h frost, or prot pally. Especially the two latter ones.
5. Frost DW, Don't even bother because you're wasting talent points into abilities that are better spent elsewhere. It works just that i think you should switch to 2h frost.
@@Egghead012 not even close and this was a summation. I could easily go into detail. But you are 100%wrong about frost dk. They lack so many important aspects that allow blood to shine. Doesn't really matter, my point was warrior and druid at bottom. Running icy veins with buffs to IT is needed so if you were confusing that to me saying blood was better without taking the buffs that's what I meant. Still considered blood going down to will of Necro and vampiric blood and abom might. If you don't know that you haven't played 3.3.5 in a very long time.
@@sebastianmonzon6285 Yeah I mean tanking in general is a joke right? Threat is a non issue in wotlk
@@zigzagofdoom Most of the time yeah, but some fights do have threat issues, hardmode general when the saronite spawns people will pull 15-20k dps in ulduar its kinda hard to hold aggro there. Overall tanking is easy just communication becomes more of a factor when cycling out cd's on hard hitting bosses between the tanks
nice video, can you make an identical one but regarding pvp? thanks!
Thank you! Yes working on a class comparison that includes PvP. Coming soon.
@@Toyhouze great looking forward to it! cheers
What are Blood DKs supposed to be for in this xpac? Low tier PvE, low tier Arena PvP...
If it's patch 3.3.5 best at tanking.
Blood DK with Full Arpen + Shadowmourne is definitely a tier C-low b by the end of the expansion
is this very accurate for live server(blizzard)? on my privat server it looks kinda different from patch 3.x.x-3.3.5a
This is based on warmane damage logs. 3.3.5
@@Toyhouze alright, thanks for the info.
@@MeowMeow6118a then u cant depend on this list, cuz warmane is only on 3.3.5 + they have boosted characters ,so the dmg will be different
I'm a frost mage
Reroll
@@notificationsareoffiwin9343 hell no
I'm going to play my demolock I love that spec so much and super excited to play then again. I will also play feral since I main cat since vanilla
Where is Shadowpriest :D
good video but you missel spell enhancment shaman on top dps of t7!!! :)
Me who plays ele sham wanting to cry...
still great in pvp!
i ll move hunter to S in ICC
Maybe my memory is deceiving me, but I remember Blood being hella viable DPS in 3.3.5a, especially with high armor pen. Maybe not to the same level as Unholy or Frost, but even with Blood's DPS nerfs through the expansion, I still remember Blood DKs being middle of the pack. They were definitely above sub rogues, frost mages, and arms Warriors.
I think I even remember some theory crafting putting Shadowmourne armor pen blood above Shadowmourne frost or unholy.
It seems like everyone's Wrath guides have completely forgotten that all 3 DK specs can be tank and DPS in Wrath (to varying levels of success).
I plan on unholy tanking. :)
Bis bdk with sm can compete with bis frost and bis unh with sm.
Weird. I watched two tier lists back to back, and the other guy had Enhance as an A tier during Naxx. In fact you're rating Enhance far lower than pretty much every tier list. I've never seen them below B tier, and they are usually in A tier. They're NEVER below Elemental either. I'm guessing you've only played with bad Enhancers.
ENH claps. Especially early game. Spellhance is actually baffling to see. So OP
This is a weird list. All of it is very accurate based on 3.3.5 blizzlike private servers, but Enhc Shaman is S tier in Naxx, not C lol. That spec is completely broken with little gear, but has poor scaling, so it falls off the further into the game you go. S tier, in Naxx, A in Ulduar etc.etc.
And that's just regular Enhc (with physical weapons), Spellhance (using spell weapons/trinkets/jewelry instead of agi) is the spec with THE HIGHEST potential in Naxx, assuming you get to take caster gear over actual casters, ignoring fringe situations like a single Lock getting fed every Tricks and PI available.
I don't understand how you got everything else spot on, but managed to missplace Enhancement to such a degree.
Oh, Frost DK is S tier in Ulduar aswell. That's when they are the strongest, because Frost DKs are stuck with 213 weapons as BiS in Naxx (when most specs can get 226 weps), while they can access 232s in Ulduar.
idk what do u mean by being poor in icc , i saw ppl who mastered Enh sham and they were in top 3 on some bosses in 25 hc
I main Hunter in TBC currently, but I'm having a ton of fun leveling my Rogue on Warmane so we'll see how things shape up as we approach WotLK and I get some experience raiding with the Rogue. I originally started playing WoW in late Cata maining Feral DPS, so that's a comfortable option for me as well.
No mention of the mechanical reason why melee physical DPS suddenly shot up at end game. My memory still works well. The reason multilate and feral held up high early was that bleed builds were fine and muti was poison. But once Arpen hit which was a stackable (Blizz got stung with stacking) then haste/arpen ruled. And it made the game turn into a degenerate mess. Ferals ditched bleeds, Combat stepped over muti, Fury went literally from zero to hero, frost DK died and the saddest of all, Ret pallies and their degenerate player base who thought they had become skillful, showed to be fantastic at autoattacks with their fancy legendary. Best and worst times of wow, depending on what class you were.
great way to make a tier list for wrath. definitely very volatile between specs each raid tier so it's useless to do a tier list without breaking down like you did.
I'll just say that on some private servers unholy was very far ahead of frost, mostly due to gargoyle dmg being crazy. we'll have to wait and see if it was a pserver mistake or ppl just didn't knew how to abuse gargoyle back then
Thank you :)
Without a shadow of a doubt, I'm maining warlock. Top tier dps, great ultility, and the look of the tier sets in this expansion is unmatched.
Literally stopped watching the moment you said frost has better aoe than unholy.