I was a missionary in Dr. Spackman's ward for a short time. He hosted me for dinner once and it was one of the most enlightening doctrinal conversations I've ever had.
Well, it’s only a heresy if you believe in scripture alone. That idea was invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century. The idea that God reveals truth to prophets is the uniting theme throughout every book of the Bible, and is the reason we have the Bible. If people like you were around in ancient times, you would have been upset that Paul and Peter were “adding” to Jesus’ words
David Snell! This is BOMB. My dad is protestant. My mom is LDS. And this conversation is awesome. I LOVE Richard Mouw, he like Pastor Jeff is a powerful sweetheart, who has done more good for the evangelical LDS dialogue than just about anybody. I will definitely be reading his book that was mentioned. Thanks for covering this topic. I've been studying the reformation for the past year and a half and you guys made some REALLY great points about it in explaining why we struggle to hear each other. In some ways on the LDS side, it's just because we need to better understand protestant history. High five!
This is interesting. I think I remember Elder Maxwell saying once that when you make scripture the ultimate authority, you are unwittingly placing human reason as your ultimate authority.
I just wanna say, I really love the extended conversation! Especially on topics like this, it deserves an hour minimum! Thank you for your hard work in making these videos. Great balance of quick intro videos and more long form serious discussions.
Same. If you want more of this plus a little bit of suffering, Missionary Discussions with Travis Anderson is a maddeningly fun channel to check out as well.
18:15 "We are not based on the the bible. We are not even based on scripture. We are based on what scripture itself is based on: living prophets." Love that!👏
The one change I would make is that the scriptures are based on Christ, but given from his living mouthpieces, the prophets. Kinda like the scripture John 5:39: “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” (the scriptures aren’t the source of salvation, Christ is). And Amos 3:7 “For the Lord God does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets” Ephesians 4:11-13 “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:” Lastly james 1:5-8 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.” God is always the sources, his prophets declare it, and we can confirm it by being part of the congregation of Christ and as well as asking him directly in prayer.
Although the perogative is true, Scripture itself isn't based upon the Prophets. There are many prophets' writings who aren't included in the Canon, because they were deemed false by the authoritative Church which Christ gave to the apostles. The difference between historical Christianity and the CLDS is the trust in Christ when he said "You are Peter (which means rock) and upon this rock I will build my Church, and THE GATES OF HADES SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT" (emphasis mine)
@@elf-lordsfriarofthemeadowl2039 in the original text, the words Christs uses for “rock” are different. Peter, meanwhile something more like, small rock, the other means large stone. Showing that it’s not upon the small rock of Peter the church will be built, but upon a large stone. Christ is that stone. With all due respect as well, our church name isn’t the CLDS or the church of the Latter Day Saints. It is the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It’s His church. As far as what the scriptures are based on, I agree, they aren’t based on the prophets. But they are based on the words of God, mostly given through revelation to prophets through their imperfect understanding. In some cases the words of God are given through direct communication too. This is why we call scripture, “the word of God”, because is it the word of God. The only difference is it come to us through imperfect but good people and then written down. *edit to touch on points I missed* If a prophet is deemed false, I agree, their words shouldn’t be included in scripture since by virtue of them being a fake prophet, their words aren’t from God. But that’s not the only reason why possible scripture could have been left out of the OT and NT. The writings could have been lost or stolen, the people compiling the writings into the collection we all know now could have made a mistake or not known about it at the time, etc. as well, God has never said he would stop giving us prophets and apostles, nor did he say he would stop giving us his word.
Since church teachings and practices are not based on scripture, but rather upon living prophets, all the more reason to investigate if what the living prophets are teaching is moral, truthful, and matches up with all of the available facts.
I was in the Mormon Church until God revealed to me that it was a man breathed. I pray for all the mislead daily for True Salvation and Truth of only One with Authority. God is the Same as Today as He was Yesterday and I say AMEN to that otherwise we will be tossed too and thro from mans thinking and devious plans.
AND I'LL DO IT AGAIN!! Also, we've done a few others in the past - feel free to check 'em out on this here playlist: ruclips.net/p/PLOHNF5lP0i7dMSj11D5yVaAhb6jfzAnzq&si=eGIyVhihUIjbCnRs
@keystonelds oh no, please don't make any more long form content 🙏 that would just ruin my whole day cause then I'd have to listen to all of it and learn from it and maybe get spiritual enlightenment from it. Just the worse! Appreciate you my man! Keep it up
Your guest is right on, in my view. As a convert to the church (9/8/1971), I was, at the time, largely unimpressed by the Book of Mormon. I was far more impressed with the Doctrine & Covenants. Why, I wondered, did God stop speaking to man those many eons ago? Hugh B. Brown's address on the need for revelation and prophets resonated with me and, with the testimony of Joseph Smith's divine calling, the Book of Mormon followed suit as a given. Yes, it was, and is, a remarkable evidence that Smith was who he said he was, but it took me years to fully appreciate what a remarkable work it is, and I wish your guest had addressed the casual protestant response to it. I, and many other Latter-day Saints, have tossed the Book of Mormon out to our critics to either explain or replicate the feat, only to be callously ignored or altogether spurned. But why? LDS explorers in the Arabian Peninsula have made some breathtaking discoveries that give them what they've always clamored for - archaeological evidence! They've found the valley, Nahom (NHM), temples outside of Jerusalem and Bountiful, all of which is received in studied silence. Ham sandwiches, anyone?
Hi, Reformed Protestant here! I am thankful for y’all speaking clearly on this topic because I have close friends very dear to me that are Mormon and we love to have mutually edifying conversations on our faith. It’s very helpful to have this clearly explained. One thing that is difficult being a Protestant is we don’t all believe the same things 100%. I actually agree with y’all on some points especially about the importance of works.
Love your warm comment. I’m LDS and wanted to share that we do not believe works save us. Only Jesus saves us through his incomprehensible grace. He is truly our Save-ior. Our works show what we’ve learned to become like Jesus. They manifest our understanding of his works and our love for him. Our works show how we follow in his footsteps. We say the things he said. We do the things he did. In other words, we love, serve, and give. We follow in his footsteps…or at least we are trying to each day. The closer we come to him through living like him, the closer we can be to him in eternity. I know Mormons who aren’t very faithful, and I know Protestants and Catholics that are incredibly like Christ. Whatever anyone believes, or believes not, I love all of them. We are truly God’s children and are brothers and sisters. Jesus is coming soon…isn’t that the most wonderful joy of all? See you then.
@@ggrace1133 See, it’s people like you that make me doubt the Protestant and Catholic doctrines that you must believe in the Trinity to be saved. I of course believe in the Trinity, but what you said is the same Gospel I believe in. How could you not also be saved? I believe all people that believe the true Gospel that saves and live it out in their deeds as James 2:18 says, are saved. Blessings upon you, and may our Lord be with you.
@@maxplaysgamesmore8552 thank you for your warm heart, and may he bless you and your loved ones as well. Let’s meet when he comes again. I’m sure he will teach us a great deal for our growth and enlightenment.
David, thanks for having Ben on! I've been watching all your content since 2020 and can't be more grateful for what you do. Please keep it up!! Discussion like this with scholars such as Ben are so interesting and insightful
This is an amazing interview, and it's full of awesome information. Both of you are obviously knowledgeable, and this is a great discussion to learn from.
Travis Anderson helped me understand to not play by the Bible sola Scriptura playbook Protestants use, he has focused many of his discussions by shifting the burden of proof onto Protestants to prove sola scriptura, and you find out quickly that it doesn’t pass muster as a basis for argument.
I'd love an exhaustive explanation of what we believe laid out by Travis one day. There's a lot of....granularity to how he can explain things that is helpful
i just recently stumbled across Travis’s videos. they’re really helpful and have given me a new perspective on how to deal with protestants who mis read and misinterpret the biblical texts
@davidpoole409 revelation through a prophet of God... recorded for all the world to read. That's how we have the Bible, the Book of Mormon, etc. The holy ghost bears record that these recorded revelations are true, when we humble seek the lord in prayer.
@@Goodlookingjedi so you rely entirely on the Holy Spirit and your own intuition to know your prophets are correct? Does this not invalidate the argument made in this video? Because both religions can actually just say “well the Holy Spirit told me it’s true” Listen the Catholic Church and it’s children built the modern world. The monastic tradition built the universities and modernity. The same biblical narrative destroyed the Roman Empire and inspired modern physics. Your prophets speak very poorly of the Catholic Church not in its modern form but in its entire creation and origins. How do you as an LDS justify against this world view?
One quibble with what Dr. Spackman (!) said: Ned Flanders didn't make that complaint in church, he made it from the rubble of his home destroyed in the hurricane.
Excellent clarification on an important topic that is discussed whenever Latter-Day Saints and Protestants talk about scripture. I really enjoyed this and your other content. Thank you so much.
If this is the same Ben Spackman (who taught at BYU) that I think it is, I was in his ward 10 years ago. He and his wife are equally intelligent, dedicated, and stalwart. I respect them both very much. This, and the other interview with him were enlightening. I also enjoyed his FAIR presentations from past years. He is another thoughtful voice in our spiritually and mentally invigorating faith!
When you talk about the Bible, I am reminded of a statement by Hugh Nibley who said, (paraphrasing) that if you mixed their writings up and put them in a bind, you could review them page by page and not realize when you turned the pages because they were basically nothing more than Bible commentaries. Joseph Smith stood out from them as he introduced many new and distinct doctrines completely outside of the Biblical community.
I think that as an LDS we need to defend our teachings based from the words of our modern prophets and not only from the prophets of the bible. The Protestants can accept it or reject it, but that is what our Church is all about ... modern day revelations! We have our scriptures to show them and they can either accept it or reject. Period, end of discussion! 😊
The "we are based on what the Bible is based on" comes from a talk given at BYU-Idaho. Look for the BYU-Idaho Speeches talk titled "Authorized Messengers and the Gift of the Holy Ghost" by Ross Baron given January 2018. The talk is really good, I strongly recommend listening to the whole talk.
Jesus to Peter: "Whom do you say that I am?" Peter: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus didn't say, "Blessed art thou Simon Bar Jonah. You rightly divided scripture in the closed canon and came up with that after years of study with seminarians and getting a degree ensuring that you believe and teach the same as them." Our Father revealed it, without regarding what others at the time thought the scriptures should mean.❤
he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? (so I don't think the disciples answered the question incorrectly), but then Jesus followed up asking "But whom say ye that I am?" To which Simon answered, " Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." I think many of the apostles had the same answer. Simon verbalized it first, is my guess, and Jesus simply was saying he was blessed for listening to revelation rather than reasoning of men. (The previous answers were to a different question than the question Simon Peter answered. so there may be some fallacy to say Peter was uniquely inspired in his answer as compared to the other disciples answers because their answers were to a different question.)
@paulblack1799 Know that at this event Christ and His disciples were in a city which was ripe with many Greco-Roman pagan beliefs, statues temples, etc. I think the question was very deliberate when Christ asked, literally in a pagan epicentre- with them literally surrounded by all the fall gods and such. It was the stark contrast! Christ revealing His divinity while surrounded by all the false gods. Truly, a light in a dark place. It would have deeply impressed their minds and Spirit. 🤗
Thanks for this video it helps clarify the weirdness of social media posts saying we aren't Christian by Protestant believers. It helps clarify where we stand in the Christian world so that will not get caught in a word salad to respond to their dopamine induced gotcha moments.
There is an small but interesting book called The Book of Mormon, Key to Conversion (pub. in the 1960s i think). It taught (as I remember, it has been years since my mission), to use the Book of Mormon to answer a question. Or show a Bible verse and a Book of Mormon verse. This would bring attention to the fact that the underlying issues is not one of biblical interpretation, but a lack of faith and understanding of the latter-day restoration of the priesthood. Then you can have a conversation about the foundational restoration doctrine.
Could you do a longer video with him that dives into the 4 types of interpretation (also just pretty much anything else, this is a fascinating watch) please?
Because the bible is a 'complete' document today, the majority of people think it's always been thus. They don't grasp that further revelation was being given and further revelation and further revelation
This is true. I'd even go further as to say that the Bible isn't even a document so much as it is a collection of documents copied from copies over the course of centuries.
It depends on what you mean by that, but yes, we reject the whole idea of the Bible being the source of our beliefs, as we believe the source to be God.
That is not what they said. Much of our beliefs are Biblical. but, even if it is not in the Bible, we have other scriptures from Prophets of God (which is Biblical) that confirm our beliefs.
This one is clarifying I always knew the church was more based on Profets than Bible or scriptures … this is good to listen and helpful to reinforce our understanding and help us prepare for when someone confronts us… 👍👍👍
How do LDS square the idea of the Bible being compiled by the Catholic Church with their theology? I'm genuinely curious because I can't seem to find an answer since the great apostasy was happening while the books of the Bible were being compiled
The Great Apostasy was simply God's true church being removed from the Earth. That doesn't mean there weren't inspired people, because there certainly were. The Catholic Church should be recognized for how well they preserved the Bible. Martin Luther should be recognized for his part in the reformation. And behind both of these, there were people that truly wanted to be closer to God. While I can't give a proper answer as to why Joseph Smith was the one to receive revelation and reveal more scripture, it definitely wasn't because he was the only one searching.
@@oshawott4544 How does the LDS church know these two conflicting authoritative states were correct, and not the others proclaimed by Martin Luther or the early Catholic Church? With what authority does it use to sift through sources?
@@elf-lordsfriarofthemeadowl2039 prayer. Fervently asking God to witness of His truth is our primary method. By turning to Him in moments of doubt, we can receive a witness that it is indeed true, even if we don't know why yet. I encourage you to pray for discernment and a witness that the Bible is true the next time you study it. Invite the spirit when you study the Bible, and you'll find more than you ever thought you could.
Best interview and dialogue you have had on social media, I wonder if he recommends a book to Latter-day Saints on understanding the history of Christianity as an introduction?
I think what Ben said about sola scriptura was eloquent in showing how insidious of a lie it is. He is correct that the definition of sola scriptura is saying ultimately the reader is the authority on what is God’s word. This illustrates sola scriptura as being idolatrous.
Scriptural canonization may be a product of Protestant thought and that’s why we don’t really worry about canonizing revelations into our quads anymore. We don’t have to because we just need to follow the prophets.
Ross Baron, is a BYUI professor who I know brings up the "we aren't based on the Bible...Nor the Book of Mormon" is that who you were referencing at about the 17:40 mark?
43:00 Ben makes a great point, that the letters are only commentary on what's going wrong, not just what's right. How many things were they getting right (that protestants don't know about) that didn't need to be commented on?
The members of the other churches attend church services and hear sermons from preachers who went to theology school and learned the wrong way. Therefore they think because the LDS interpretation doesn't align with their views they assume that the LDS are wrong. Actually the LDS are right, the members of the other churches are off on their interpretation.
Evangs, as much as I love them, depend on learning from what another person learned from another person about the Bible, or from what they feel is true (as long as it harmonizes with what they understand about what they're taught about the Bible). Latter-Day Saints rely on prophets.
@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii the same could be said about the lds church or any other church. But the one true church is the church that Jesus Christ established on the rock of St Peter in 33 AD and has withstood the test of time for 2,000 years and has never fallen away and has given us the scriptures and deposit of faith. The one true church that Jesus Christ is sacramentally present in the Eucharist! And that church still exists today and is headed by the successor of St Peter , Christ’s vivar , his Holiness, Pope Francis! Glory to Jesus Christ!🙏☦️❤️
@Compulsive-Elk7103 And are you referring to the western half, or the eastern half as the “one true church” that has stood for 2000+ years? I believe the eastern half has just as much claim to being the “oldest” as the western half does 😉
@@Compulsive-Elk7103 I would seriously advise you to look into just how many changes in doctrine the Catholic church has been through; it is most certainly NOT the church of 2,000 years ago.
Why does the LDS Church hold to the King James Bible as Scripture and not the 7 books which were included in all Bibles before? (earliest surviving record being from the Council of Rome in 382AD). And by who's authority were these removed? Did Joseph Smith ever proclaim something about them?
Love the studyand thought Dr Spackman unravelled for us here. Especially the background of Deification of the Savior that came out of Nicea. I am hearing and looking into the Deification of Mary stemming from Council of Ephesus in 431....
I have found that many beliefs I have held as true, come from the Protestant background. When I have finally understood that as a kid I was being taught by some of my teachers at church things that came only from pluralistic sources, I have been able to let go of half truths and untruths and that were holding me back.
The importance of ongoing revelation cannot be understated, and I would add that it also applies to the issue that arises when we find that Joseph Smith, etc. Said and did stuff that we don’t presently agree with. If revelation is ongoing, we likely know much more than even Joseph Smith knew, and future generations will know more than we do now.
@@whatsup3270it’s not that early revelation had issues, it’s that Joseph smith did things that aren’t congruent with modern revelation. Even within his own life, as he grew and learned as a person the lord revealed to him how he needed to change. He smoked and drank, but it was Joseph smith who revealed the word of wisdom. There wasn’t revelation to say not to do that, so he didn’t know it was wrong.
@@cm4nxd He didn't know it was wrong? What does that say about Joseph's real thoughts on the KJV, other religions, and the 10 commandments. What does that say about Joseph's honesty. Who wanted the 14 year-olds, God or Joseph and even more important how can Cm4nxd know.
As a Bible believing Christian this is very good. Because the lines are not blurred which is good. Which means you would need to explain your living prophets Joseph and Brigham.
love this interview, I've had the same impressions this year as I've listened to pastor Jeff from hello saints. When he explained sola scriptura, a lightbulb clicked. I then understood why slavery was a thing for 400 years, and why woman could not vote. Out of all the "abominable creeds" that the Lord talked about in the sacred grove, in my opinion, sola scriptura is one of the top ones. But at the same time, if not because of it, Joseph would not be able to have the Bible to read for himself James 1:5. I have a love hate relationship with this way of approaching scripture lol. Thank God for the restoration!
Strong drink: Isaiah 5:11! Spirit children if God!; Hebrews 12:9, Acts 38:17, Psalms 82:6 "Ye are gods and ALL of you are the children of the Most High." Becoming gods: Rev. 3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit on my throne just as I overcame and am sat down with my Father on His throne."! Etc., etc., etc.! Continued...
The jump zooms are distracting to me. Presumably other people love it. I start counting the pops and see if there's any alignment with topic or regularity in frequency. It seems to be a modern fad with RUclips. That and gigantic headphones (thank you for showing your ears) Anyway, yes, absolutely. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not Catholic nor is it protesting catholicism. The word of God *is scripture* and I am thrilled to have more of it.
A couple months ago, I would openly invite people to have a discussion with me on RUclips videos about Catholics trying to understabd other faiths. I would comment, stating that I was born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ: of Latter-day Saints for the last 24 years, and I invited people to have open doscussions with me on whichever questions they had. I tokd them that when I had the answers that I would tell them, but sometimes, my answers would not come for another couoke of months, an RUclips does not track your comments anything beyond the last month, so I can't go back and answer their comments if I didn't respond to them earlier. Anyway, this one christian said that Mormons don't believe in the Holy Bible, saying that we believe that we will be Gods one day, and they said that Jesus said that He will be the last God and that there hasn't been a God before Him either. But as I started reading the Book of Mormon on the 12th of August this year, I have found that the Book of Mormon also has scriptures that state that He is the first and the last, and that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Hoky Ghost are One God. It is all interesting and I would love to be able to point out these verses to them who say we don't velieve in the same things.
I think one of the best ways of addressing the change of the gospel from a Protestant biblical Christianity to LDS Theology is much like the transition from the Old Testament Judaism to the New Testament Christian age, where most Jewish laws were condensed and made a higher law and, to a Jewish believer, were heretical in every way. Mormonism is the same. The new, and heretical to Protestants, gospel is here to make sweeping changes (but are still based on the original teachings).
genuine question. How can you trust the "Living Prophets"?? This entire argument is based on the fact that the LDS church has these prophets. How can you prove their claims to being prophetic? Jesus told us to beware of false prophets in Mathew 17. Someone who is LDS please respond and explain!
Ye shall know them by the fruits of their labor. One example might be the come follow me program which was introduced to help saints learn to study at home, which was given just before the COVID pandemic prevented most people from attending church every Sunday.
@@cm4nxdthere are plenty of issues with the LDS church and regardless our subjective view of morality makes me a really bad judge of someone’s fruits. If we would take this quoted passage litteraly we would have to assume that the modern rabbinic Jews are actually correct because they have the best outcomes statistically when it comes to marriage success, educational attainment, criminal offenses. Also you seem to be referencing a pro ported miracle or prophetic word that LDS knew to set this up before COVID but we see through biblical literature that just because someone or group is right about the future does not mean they are a prophet of god. See Mark 13:22
One of our basic doctrines is that we all have access to spiritual promptings. I know that there is a living prophet on the earth today because I have prayed to know then followed the prophet's counsel. As my faith has moved me to act on his words, I feel comforted, guided and at peace. You can pray to know for yourself 😊
Prayer. I don't mean to get in a Bible debate, but James 1:5-6 is a personal favorite in our church. "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God." But it's important to be open to God's messages. Prayer without a willingness to accept God's answer will not profit you anything.
Book of Mormon 2nd Witness of Jesus… One among many others, but it’s much more than just a witness. The point is that not scripture is witnessing but living people then and now and the. the BoM teaches revelation 101. Meaning, anyone bearing testimony of Jesus Christ through and by the Holy Ghost, is another living prophet. Is a person invoking the Holy Ghost not prophesying?
Hello 👋 I'm a Protestant. I'm just starting the video but will get back to you. I won't be able to watch it all the way through now so you may have to remind me. Peace 🕊️
Protestant here, two major rebuttals: 1.) we do not believe that one’s interpretation of scripture is above everything else. The Bible tells us to be under the authority of elders(pastors) and to submit to their authority. It also tells us to what criteria to judge the elders’ teaching by. We do believe that we are accountable to God to know what the Bible says and place ourselves under biblical teaching. 2.) The statement that Mormons believe in the same source as the Bible, God’s prophets. Does not jive for us. Mormon prophecy fails the biblical tests to determine if a prophet is truly from God. We would point to the predictions that did not come true and the fact that Mormon church hasn’t had massive archaeological finds at Cumorah hill as strong reasons to see Joseph Smith as a prophet who wasn’t from God.
@@adamkaine2714 - Did you actually read what I said above? I said "I'd love to hear their rebuttals and explanations to this." What part of that says, "SO I CAN DEBUNK THOSE NERDS!"? Is that what you took from it? I said I'd love to hear their rebuttal and @sinjinseiber648 did that. They gave a rebuttal and explanation. Where did I say that I wanted to hear it so that I could shoot it down? Is that what I said? Did I say I would reply? What are you getting at, exactly?
@@harmonillustration Isn't the reason for your comment because you feel that evangelical arguments would not be strong, unless you are evangelical? You made a reference to thier rebuttal of evangelicals, did you not? So what was the purpose if you did not agree with them? If so, then you should be prepared to answer.
Since becoming aware of it, I thought that Isaiah 43:10 is clarified with verse 11. “There is no other saviour” adjusting it to be 1 sentence you could say “there is no other God through which salvation can come.”
Wow, I really appreciate your sincerity, and that confirms what I was suspecting about the LDS church. "You are not based on scriptures", "You are following a prophet", "wine in the Bible was really non-alcoholic"????, Jesus miracle in wedding in Cana of Galilee was a fake???, if you are not not based on scriptures but on what scripture itself is based on: living prophets.", what does it means?
Honest question RE WoW: I understand that the WoW as lived now was given authoritatively by Pres Cannon in the 1920s. My question is: if the change came by revelation, then shouldn’t it be canonized? If not, then is it more like a policy prescription? Like the priesthood ban?
In my middle age when biblically faith based friends, acquaintances or others, brought up the issue of us having additional scriptures and modern-day revelation I said that I believe that nobody can put A muzzle on God’s Mouth….DONE…. Hostile …NO… made my point 😊
30:26 I don't think it's really necessary to fall into that "trap" either. Any serious reader of the Bible knows that the Bible ITSELF contradicts with the Bible all the time. There is no univocality even within the Bible, so what do some Bible verses allegedly contradicting the LDS doctrine really mean anything really?
Does football have a rulebook that one needs to follow? Basketball ? If you follow your own "unique" rules within either of these games, then you are not playing the same game. Why is it any different with biblical teachings ?
Some great arguments. But I have to say that the more I dive into the scholarship of the Bible, the more I discover how right Joseph Smith was about many things.. At least we can see on how many Protestants ideas evolved over time, instead of it being original to the Bible.
Certain facets of the gospel--that it comes through Christ alone, and not by works, but works confirm our faith and our gratitude for what He's done, should reach across all denominational lines whether LDS or Protestant. THAT is the cornerstone of Salvation. Everything else can be up for debate.
Absolutely. I've seen plenty of evidence for this between Christian denominations. Their issue is crossing Ephesians with 2 Nephi 25. Their ussue is Nephi saying "we're saved by grace after all we can do" and interpret that to mean after all our works but that isn't how the book of Mormon converts actually view that phrase. The lamanite King in Alma 24 says what it actually means he said "behold... It was ALL WE COULD DO was to REPENT before God... All we could do was repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stains... Therefore let us bury our swords that they may remain bright at the last day..." So what does all we can do mean? It means to repent, not works. So rewrite it and it says "we are saved by grace after [we repent of our sins]" Is that different than other Protestants? Absolutely not. It's the same.
@@outof_obscurity It is similar, but not the same. It is not complete without a baptism of water and of the Holy Spirit, and fulfilling the commandment to endure to the end with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, retaining a remission of our sins. We believe that Faith in Jesus Christ unto repentance is essential, as well as a penitent attitude, broken heart, and contrite spirit as part of that close, lifelong covenant relationship with Jesus Christ is essential. Yes, the Atonement of Jesus Christ saves us and his sacrifice covers our sins, but a mouth confession ain't the same as what I've just described. And just for thought, which doctrine leads to a closer relationship with Jesus Christ? Why is the metaphor of the covenant relationship of bride and bridegroom used repeatedly in the old and new testament? It is a close, lifelong relationship, not a one-time, oral acknowledgement!
@@TroySchoonover agreed. Watch my full video on "works based" and I address this. It's the same between Catholics Protestants and latter day saints. Works are our actions not our covenants, and none of our three denominations believe you can act like Satan and claim to follow Jesus. So in this area we're all the same. It comes down to priesthood authority. Catholics claim they got it from Peter to today. Saints claim Peter returned resurrected with James and the translated John to ordain he and Oliver as apostles. Protestants were excommunicated and would have lost that authority. So when did they get it back? Did they get it back? And if the Catholics hold it why was there a Protestant movement? Clearly it had to be restored. Ironic how much Protestants focus on not doing works yet without priesthood they have no option but to do their own works. 🤔
I was a missionary in Dr. Spackman's ward for a short time. He hosted me for dinner once and it was one of the most enlightening doctrinal conversations I've ever had.
I think my young, missionary brain would have been oozing out of my ears after a conversation with Ben.
@@keystonelds😅😅😅
Great. Lucky you
I like the line about “we aren’t based on scripture, we are based on what scripture is based on.” That’s a catch phrase worthy of general conference.
Elder Bednar once taught something of the sort.
its also a heresy
Well, it’s only a heresy if you believe in scripture alone. That idea was invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century. The idea that God reveals truth to prophets is the uniting theme throughout every book of the Bible, and is the reason we have the Bible. If people like you were around in ancient times, you would have been upset that Paul and Peter were “adding” to Jesus’ words
@@jpalmer2767 I would agree with you , but Mormonism theology completely changes who God and Jesus is.
@@masonkarr4329no, modern Christianity’s interpretation of the Bible changed what God “is”. Which is more authoritative - the Bible, or GOD HIMSELF?
I live in Arkansas and converted in 2014 from being a Protestant. This interview is extremely helpful and every Latter Day Saint ought to watch this.
I served my mission in Arkansas! Loved learning from the faith of many good Protestants there. Thanks for sharing!
@@ProdigalSonMatt I'm out here in NWA as well! I am blown away by how great Arkansas is.
The real True Church is the Catholic Church. Mormonism is a fraud.
David Snell! This is BOMB. My dad is protestant. My mom is LDS. And this conversation is awesome. I LOVE Richard Mouw, he like Pastor Jeff is a powerful sweetheart, who has done more good for the evangelical LDS dialogue than just about anybody. I will definitely be reading his book that was mentioned. Thanks for covering this topic. I've been studying the reformation for the past year and a half and you guys made some REALLY great points about it in explaining why we struggle to hear each other. In some ways on the LDS side, it's just because we need to better understand protestant history. High five!
High five back at ya! Thanks for tuning in! Glad to hear that our comments passed the Protestant-LDS interfaith family inspection. haha
@@keystonelds Oh gosh! Haha! No experts over here, that's for sure, but this video was really great and much appreciated!
beware ... pastor jeff's purpose is to pull people from the church.
This is interesting. I think I remember Elder Maxwell saying once that when you make scripture the ultimate authority, you are unwittingly placing human reason as your ultimate authority.
Elder Maxwell does it again!
Great Point! I sure miss him. I wonder what he would say about today’s world? Nice thing, I could understand him much better now that I am older🤗
I just wanna say, I really love the extended conversation! Especially on topics like this, it deserves an hour minimum! Thank you for your hard work in making these videos. Great balance of quick intro videos and more long form serious discussions.
Thank you, I feel the same! Long-form content is meaty, but so worth it to do, in my opinion. Thanks for watching!
Same. If you want more of this plus a little bit of suffering, Missionary Discussions with Travis Anderson is a maddeningly fun channel to check out as well.
18:15 "We are not based on the the bible. We are not even based on scripture. We are based on what scripture itself is based on: living prophets."
Love that!👏
The one change I would make is that the scriptures are based on Christ, but given from his living mouthpieces, the prophets.
Kinda like the scripture John 5:39: “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” (the scriptures aren’t the source of salvation, Christ is).
And Amos 3:7 “For the Lord God does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets”
Ephesians 4:11-13 “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:”
Lastly james 1:5-8 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.”
God is always the sources, his prophets declare it, and we can confirm it by being part of the congregation of Christ and as well as asking him directly in prayer.
Although the perogative is true, Scripture itself isn't based upon the Prophets. There are many prophets' writings who aren't included in the Canon, because they were deemed false by the authoritative Church which Christ gave to the apostles. The difference between historical Christianity and the CLDS is the trust in Christ when he said "You are Peter (which means rock) and upon this rock I will build my Church, and THE GATES OF HADES SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT"
(emphasis mine)
@@elf-lordsfriarofthemeadowl2039 in the original text, the words Christs uses for “rock” are different. Peter, meanwhile something more like, small rock, the other means large stone. Showing that it’s not upon the small rock of Peter the church will be built, but upon a large stone. Christ is that stone.
With all due respect as well, our church name isn’t the CLDS or the church of the Latter Day Saints. It is the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It’s His church.
As far as what the scriptures are based on, I agree, they aren’t based on the prophets. But they are based on the words of God, mostly given through revelation to prophets through their imperfect understanding. In some cases the words of God are given through direct communication too. This is why we call scripture, “the word of God”, because is it the word of God. The only difference is it come to us through imperfect but good people and then written down.
*edit to touch on points I missed*
If a prophet is deemed false, I agree, their words shouldn’t be included in scripture since by virtue of them being a fake prophet, their words aren’t from God. But that’s not the only reason why possible scripture could have been left out of the OT and NT. The writings could have been lost or stolen, the people compiling the writings into the collection we all know now could have made a mistake or not known about it at the time, etc. as well, God has never said he would stop giving us prophets and apostles, nor did he say he would stop giving us his word.
Since church teachings and practices are not based on scripture, but rather upon living prophets, all the more reason to investigate if what the living prophets are teaching is moral, truthful, and matches up with all of the available facts.
I was in the Mormon Church until God revealed to me that it was a man breathed. I pray for all the mislead daily for True Salvation and Truth of only One with Authority. God is the Same as Today as He was Yesterday and I say AMEN to that otherwise we will be tossed too and thro from mans thinking and devious plans.
DUDE!!! YOU DID IT!!! YOU DID THE LONGFORM!!! 🎉🎉
AND I'LL DO IT AGAIN!! Also, we've done a few others in the past - feel free to check 'em out on this here playlist: ruclips.net/p/PLOHNF5lP0i7dMSj11D5yVaAhb6jfzAnzq&si=eGIyVhihUIjbCnRs
@keystonelds oh no, please don't make any more long form content 🙏 that would just ruin my whole day cause then I'd have to listen to all of it and learn from it and maybe get spiritual enlightenment from it. Just the worse!
Appreciate you my man! Keep it up
@@MichaelGMoney Its truly an inconvenience. Like, I have a job that I might have to quit if they keep it up 😂
this video answered my prayers! so amazing everyone needs to hear this ❤️ thank you so much for your work
One of the best episodes you've done. Appreciated the level of professionalism and depth discussing our own LDS theology.
Your guest is right on, in my view. As a convert to the church (9/8/1971), I was, at the time, largely unimpressed by the Book of Mormon. I was far more impressed with the Doctrine & Covenants. Why, I wondered, did God stop speaking to man those many eons ago? Hugh B. Brown's address on the need for revelation and prophets resonated with me and, with the testimony of Joseph Smith's divine calling, the Book of Mormon followed suit as a given. Yes, it was, and is, a remarkable evidence that Smith was who he said he was, but it took me years to fully appreciate what a remarkable work it is, and I wish your guest had addressed the casual protestant response to it. I, and many other Latter-day Saints, have tossed the Book of Mormon out to our critics to either explain or replicate the feat, only to be callously ignored or altogether spurned. But why? LDS explorers in the Arabian Peninsula have made some breathtaking discoveries that give them what they've always clamored for - archaeological evidence! They've found the valley, Nahom (NHM), temples outside of Jerusalem and Bountiful, all of which is received in studied silence.
Ham sandwiches, anyone?
Hi, Reformed Protestant here!
I am thankful for y’all speaking clearly on this topic because I have close friends very dear to me that are Mormon and we love to have mutually edifying conversations on our faith. It’s very helpful to have this clearly explained.
One thing that is difficult being a Protestant is we don’t all believe the same things 100%. I actually agree with y’all on some points especially about the importance of works.
Love your warm comment. I’m LDS and wanted to share that we do not believe works save us. Only Jesus saves us through his incomprehensible grace. He is truly our Save-ior. Our works show what we’ve learned to become like Jesus. They manifest our understanding of his works and our love for him. Our works show how we follow in his footsteps. We say the things he said. We do the things he did. In other words, we love, serve, and give. We follow in his footsteps…or at least we are trying to each day. The closer we come to him through living like him, the closer we can be to him in eternity. I know Mormons who aren’t very faithful, and I know Protestants and Catholics that are incredibly like Christ. Whatever anyone believes, or believes not, I love all of them. We are truly God’s children and are brothers and sisters. Jesus is coming soon…isn’t that the most wonderful joy of all? See you then.
@@ggrace1133 See, it’s people like you that make me doubt the Protestant and Catholic doctrines that you must believe in the Trinity to be saved. I of course believe in the Trinity, but what you said is the same Gospel I believe in. How could you not also be saved? I believe all people that believe the true Gospel that saves and live it out in their deeds as James 2:18 says, are saved.
Blessings upon you, and may our Lord be with you.
@@maxplaysgamesmore8552 thank you for your warm heart, and may he bless you and your loved ones as well. Let’s meet when he comes again. I’m sure he will teach us a great deal for our growth and enlightenment.
@@ggrace1133 Amen, I’ll see you there Lord Willing.
@@maxplaysgamesmore8552 All praise and glory to our mighty God forever!
David, thanks for having Ben on! I've been watching all your content since 2020 and can't be more grateful for what you do. Please keep it up!! Discussion like this with scholars such as Ben are so interesting and insightful
Thank you for this. I appreciated it especially as I can get sucked into the argument that we are not biblical.
This is an amazing interview, and it's full of awesome information. Both of you are obviously knowledgeable, and this is a great discussion to learn from.
Travis Anderson helped me understand to not play by the Bible sola Scriptura playbook Protestants use, he has focused many of his discussions by shifting the burden of proof onto Protestants to prove sola scriptura, and you find out quickly that it doesn’t pass muster as a basis for argument.
I'd love an exhaustive explanation of what we believe laid out by Travis one day. There's a lot of....granularity to how he can explain things that is helpful
i just recently stumbled across Travis’s videos. they’re really helpful and have given me a new perspective on how to deal with protestants who mis read and misinterpret the biblical texts
Yes. His videos deserve more viewing.
Yeah, the Cavalry has been a huge help for me as well.
Learned a ton! Now I just need to watch this a couple more times so I can really remember everything.
I've been telling people that we aren't based on scripture, we're based on revelation, for awhile. It's true.
@@Goodlookingjedi false revelation*
@@Compulsive-Elk7103Batchest.
Please explain how you know you can trust the revelation? Doesn't it leave room for allot of corruption?
@davidpoole409 revelation through a prophet of God... recorded for all the world to read. That's how we have the Bible, the Book of Mormon, etc.
The holy ghost bears record that these recorded revelations are true, when we humble seek the lord in prayer.
@@Goodlookingjedi so you rely entirely on the Holy Spirit and your own intuition to know your prophets are correct? Does this not invalidate the argument made in this video? Because both religions can actually just say “well the Holy Spirit told me it’s true”
Listen the Catholic Church and it’s children built the modern world. The monastic tradition built the universities and modernity. The same biblical narrative destroyed the Roman Empire and inspired modern physics.
Your prophets speak very poorly of the Catholic Church not in its modern form but in its entire creation and origins.
How do you as an LDS justify against this world view?
I never thought of things this way. Thanks for this perspective
This channel should have much more subscribers, this channel is great.
This was excellent! I learned so much.
Wow! What a great discussion! I feel like i need to listen to it 20 more times to help retain all of the pearls!
Same here, I need to listen a couple more times then take notes.
One quibble with what Dr. Spackman (!) said: Ned Flanders didn't make that complaint in church, he made it from the rubble of his home destroyed in the hurricane.
Excellent clarification on an important topic that is discussed whenever Latter-Day Saints and Protestants talk about scripture. I really enjoyed this and your other content. Thank you so much.
Really great video!!! Thank you for doing these videos David!
David & Ben, thank you for recording this interview. The insights are really great. A paradigm shift. Thank you! 🙌
If this is the same Ben Spackman (who taught at BYU) that I think it is, I was in his ward 10 years ago. He and his wife are equally intelligent, dedicated, and stalwart. I respect them both very much.
This, and the other interview with him were enlightening. I also enjoyed his FAIR presentations from past years.
He is another thoughtful voice in our spiritually and mentally invigorating faith!
When you talk about the Bible, I am reminded of a statement by Hugh Nibley who said, (paraphrasing) that if you mixed their writings up and put them in a bind, you could review them page by page and not realize when you turned the pages because they were basically nothing more than Bible commentaries. Joseph Smith stood out from them as he introduced many new and distinct doctrines completely outside of the Biblical community.
I really love the apartment building analogy, thank you so much for that!!
I’d love a whole series of conversations with this scholar!
Excellent conversation!
This conversation was outstanding!
Loved every second!
❤️☀️🙌🏻
I really liked this discussion and think his approach to answering these questions is spot on. Thanks to both of you.
This was phenomenal
Yay more Ben!
And there'll be more of him soon!
@@keystonelds very nice!
I think I have to listen to this at least 20 more times.
🙌🏻❤️
I think that as an LDS we need to defend our teachings based from the words of our modern prophets and not only from the prophets of the bible. The Protestants can accept it or reject it, but that is what our Church is all about ... modern day revelations! We have our scriptures to show them and they can either accept it or reject. Period, end of discussion! 😊
@@davidjanbaz7728hey lad. what do you have to offer? Let’s look into that 🌞
@@davidjanbaz7728hey lad. what do you have to offer? Let’s look into that 🌞
The "we are based on what the Bible is based on" comes from a talk given at BYU-Idaho. Look for the BYU-Idaho Speeches talk titled "Authorized Messengers and the Gift of the Holy Ghost" by Ross Baron given January 2018. The talk is really good, I strongly recommend listening to the whole talk.
Yes, he did it first for a 2001 FAIR talk, "Feeding the Multitudes: Being Fishers of Men"
My favorite Keystone video yet!
Jesus to Peter: "Whom do you say that I am?"
Peter: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus didn't say, "Blessed art thou Simon Bar Jonah. You rightly divided scripture in the closed canon and came up with that after years of study with seminarians and getting a degree ensuring that you believe and teach the same as them."
Our Father revealed it, without regarding what others at the time thought the scriptures should mean.❤
This is a fantastic comment. Well done.
he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? (so I don't think the disciples answered the question incorrectly), but then Jesus followed up asking "But whom say ye that I am?" To which Simon answered, " Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
I think many of the apostles had the same answer. Simon verbalized it first, is my guess, and Jesus simply was saying he was blessed for listening to revelation rather than reasoning of men.
(The previous answers were to a different question than the question Simon Peter answered. so there may be some fallacy to say Peter was uniquely inspired in his answer as compared to the other disciples answers because their answers were to a different question.)
Protestant edit of Matthew:
“By this shall men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have [a correct view of the trinity].
Doesn't Christ then say I did not reveal this but the holy spirit did.
@paulblack1799 Know that at this event Christ and His disciples were in a city which was ripe with many Greco-Roman pagan beliefs, statues temples, etc. I think the question was very deliberate when Christ asked, literally in a pagan epicentre- with them literally surrounded by all the fall gods and such.
It was the stark contrast!
Christ revealing His divinity while surrounded by all the false gods. Truly, a light in a dark place. It would have deeply impressed their minds and Spirit. 🤗
Thanks for this video it helps clarify the weirdness of social media posts saying we aren't Christian by Protestant believers. It helps clarify where we stand in the Christian world so that will not get caught in a word salad to respond to their dopamine induced gotcha moments.
Commenting for the algorithm. This is so important
My only complaint is that this video is half as long as I wish I were.
🙌🏻my thoughts EXACTELY!
❤
A great and valuable interview. All LDS should understand these things.
There is an small but interesting book called The Book of Mormon, Key to Conversion (pub. in the 1960s i think). It taught (as I remember, it has been years since my mission), to use the Book of Mormon to answer a question. Or show a Bible verse and a Book of Mormon verse. This would bring attention to the fact that the underlying issues is not one of biblical interpretation, but a lack of faith and understanding of the latter-day restoration of the priesthood.
Then you can have a conversation about the foundational restoration doctrine.
Very Interesting. Thanks
Good video.
So insightful ❤
Could you do a longer video with him that dives into the 4 types of interpretation (also just pretty much anything else, this is a fascinating watch) please?
much needed topic exploring 👍🏻
Replace LDS with Judaism, and I've had this conversation several times!
Are you jewish?
Only jews have no prophets anymore
@@TRUTHandLIGHT4809 Thank goodness.
@@eleids???
And congratulations to Dr Spackman!
Love Dr Spackman!
Because the bible is a 'complete' document today, the majority of people think it's always been thus. They don't grasp that further revelation was being given and further revelation and further revelation
This is true. I'd even go further as to say that the Bible isn't even a document so much as it is a collection of documents copied from copies over the course of centuries.
Love this stuff.
I’m glad you guys admit that what your church believes is not in the Bible. I’m glad you guys are honest about that.
It depends on what you mean by that, but yes, we reject the whole idea of the Bible being the source of our beliefs, as we believe the source to be God.
@@ProbeScoutyep.
Author > book
Our foundation is in the Artist, not the painting.
That is not what they said. Much of our beliefs are Biblical. but, even if it is not in the Bible, we have other scriptures from Prophets of God (which is Biblical) that confirm our beliefs.
@@harmonillustrationArtist is right. Con-Artist that is lol.
I would love to see a conversation with this gentleman and the Hello Saints podcast.
This one is clarifying
I always knew the church was more based on Profets than Bible or scriptures … this is good to listen and helpful to reinforce our understanding and help us prepare for when someone confronts us… 👍👍👍
Great discussion!
How do LDS square the idea of the Bible being compiled by the Catholic Church with their theology? I'm genuinely curious because I can't seem to find an answer since the great apostasy was happening while the books of the Bible were being compiled
The Great Apostasy was simply God's true church being removed from the Earth. That doesn't mean there weren't inspired people, because there certainly were.
The Catholic Church should be recognized for how well they preserved the Bible. Martin Luther should be recognized for his part in the reformation. And behind both of these, there were people that truly wanted to be closer to God.
While I can't give a proper answer as to why Joseph Smith was the one to receive revelation and reveal more scripture, it definitely wasn't because he was the only one searching.
@@oshawott4544 How does the LDS church know these two conflicting authoritative states were correct, and not the others proclaimed by Martin Luther or the early Catholic Church? With what authority does it use to sift through sources?
@@elf-lordsfriarofthemeadowl2039 prayer. Fervently asking God to witness of His truth is our primary method. By turning to Him in moments of doubt, we can receive a witness that it is indeed true, even if we don't know why yet.
I encourage you to pray for discernment and a witness that the Bible is true the next time you study it. Invite the spirit when you study the Bible, and you'll find more than you ever thought you could.
Best interview and dialogue you have had on social media, I wonder if he recommends a book to Latter-day Saints on understanding the history of Christianity as an introduction?
I think what Ben said about sola scriptura was eloquent in showing how insidious of a lie it is. He is correct that the definition of sola scriptura is saying ultimately the reader is the authority on what is God’s word. This illustrates sola scriptura as being idolatrous.
Scriptural canonization may be a product of Protestant thought and that’s why we don’t really worry about canonizing revelations into our quads anymore. We don’t have to because we just need to follow the prophets.
Ross Baron, is a BYUI professor who I know brings up the "we aren't based on the Bible...Nor the Book of Mormon" is that who you were referencing at about the 17:40 mark?
Yes!
43:00 Ben makes a great point, that the letters are only commentary on what's going wrong, not just what's right. How many things were they getting right (that protestants don't know about) that didn't need to be commented on?
I would love to get a transcript of this episode and send it to my son on his mission. He can’t watch RUclips.
The members of the other churches attend church services and hear sermons from preachers who went to theology school and learned the wrong way. Therefore they think because the LDS interpretation doesn't align with their views they assume that the LDS are wrong. Actually the LDS are right, the members of the other churches are off on their interpretation.
Evangs, as much as I love them, depend on learning from what another person learned from another person about the Bible, or from what they feel is true (as long as it harmonizes with what they understand about what they're taught about the Bible).
Latter-Day Saints rely on prophets.
@@RichardHolmes-ll8ii the same could be said about the lds church or any other church.
But the one true church is the church that Jesus Christ established on the rock of St Peter in 33 AD and has withstood the test of time for 2,000 years and has never fallen away and has given us the scriptures and deposit of faith.
The one true church that Jesus Christ is sacramentally present in the Eucharist! And that church still exists today and is headed by the successor of St Peter , Christ’s vivar , his Holiness, Pope Francis!
Glory to Jesus Christ!🙏☦️❤️
@@Compulsive-Elk7103 As a former Mormon I agree!
@Compulsive-Elk7103 And are you referring to the western half, or the eastern half as the “one true church” that has stood for 2000+ years? I believe the eastern half has just as much claim to being the “oldest” as the western half does 😉
@@Compulsive-Elk7103 I would seriously advise you to look into just how many changes in doctrine the Catholic church has been through; it is most certainly NOT the church of 2,000 years ago.
Why does the LDS Church hold to the King James Bible as Scripture and not the 7 books which were included in all Bibles before? (earliest surviving record being from the Council of Rome in 382AD). And by who's authority were these removed? Did Joseph Smith ever proclaim something about them?
Love the studyand thought Dr Spackman unravelled for us here. Especially the background of Deification of the Savior that came out of Nicea. I am hearing and looking into the Deification of Mary stemming from Council of Ephesus in 431....
I have found that many beliefs I have held as true, come from the Protestant background. When I have finally understood that as a kid I was being taught by some of my teachers at church things that came only from pluralistic sources, I have been able to let go of half truths and untruths and that were holding me back.
The importance of ongoing revelation cannot be understated, and I would add that it also applies to the issue that arises when we find that Joseph Smith, etc. Said and did stuff that we don’t presently agree with. If revelation is ongoing, we likely know much more than even Joseph Smith knew, and future generations will know more than we do now.
Which makes the question why did the early revelation contain error.
@@whatsup3270it’s not that early revelation had issues, it’s that Joseph smith did things that aren’t congruent with modern revelation. Even within his own life, as he grew and learned as a person the lord revealed to him how he needed to change. He smoked and drank, but it was Joseph smith who revealed the word of wisdom. There wasn’t revelation to say not to do that, so he didn’t know it was wrong.
@@cm4nxd He didn't know it was wrong? What does that say about Joseph's real thoughts on the KJV, other religions, and the 10 commandments. What does that say about Joseph's honesty. Who wanted the 14 year-olds, God or Joseph and even more important how can Cm4nxd know.
More of this!!!
Has Dr Spackman published his dissertation? I'd love to read it!
As a Bible believing Christian this is very good. Because the lines are not blurred which is good. Which means you would need to explain your living prophets Joseph and Brigham.
WOAH WAIT LONGFORM LETS GOOO
This is good stuff 😳
love this interview, I've had the same impressions this year as I've listened to pastor Jeff from hello saints. When he explained sola scriptura, a lightbulb clicked. I then understood why slavery was a thing for 400 years, and why woman could not vote. Out of all the "abominable creeds" that the Lord talked about in the sacred grove, in my opinion, sola scriptura is one of the top ones. But at the same time, if not because of it, Joseph would not be able to have the Bible to read for himself James 1:5. I have a love hate relationship with this way of approaching scripture lol. Thank God for the restoration!
Strong drink: Isaiah 5:11! Spirit children if God!; Hebrews 12:9, Acts 38:17, Psalms 82:6 "Ye are gods and ALL of you are the children of the Most High." Becoming gods: Rev. 3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit on my throne just as I overcame and am sat down with my Father on His throne."! Etc., etc., etc.! Continued...
Can Mormons back Joseph’s smiths translation of the Book of Abraham with the Book of Mormon.
The jump zooms are distracting to me. Presumably other people love it. I start counting the pops and see if there's any alignment with topic or regularity in frequency. It seems to be a modern fad with RUclips. That and gigantic headphones (thank you for showing your ears)
Anyway, yes, absolutely. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not Catholic nor is it protesting catholicism. The word of God *is scripture* and I am thrilled to have more of it.
A couple months ago, I would openly invite people to have a discussion with me on RUclips videos about Catholics trying to understabd other faiths. I would comment, stating that I was born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ: of Latter-day Saints for the last 24 years, and I invited people to have open doscussions with me on whichever questions they had.
I tokd them that when I had the answers that I would tell them, but sometimes, my answers would not come for another couoke of months, an RUclips does not track your comments anything beyond the last month, so I can't go back and answer their comments if I didn't respond to them earlier. Anyway, this one christian said that Mormons don't believe in the Holy Bible, saying that we believe that we will be Gods one day, and they said that Jesus said that He will be the last God and that there hasn't been a God before Him either. But as I started reading the Book of Mormon on the 12th of August this year, I have found that the Book of Mormon also has scriptures that state that He is the first and the last, and that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Hoky Ghost are One God. It is all interesting and I would love to be able to point out these verses to them who say we don't velieve in the same things.
Profile of a prophet by Hugh B Brown. One of the coolest talks!
Good heck guys . Let's make things a little easier...
Great content!!!
I think one of the best ways of addressing the change of the gospel from a Protestant biblical Christianity to LDS Theology is much like the transition from the Old Testament Judaism to the New Testament Christian age, where most Jewish laws were condensed and made a higher law and, to a Jewish believer, were heretical in every way. Mormonism is the same. The new, and heretical to Protestants, gospel is here to make sweeping changes (but are still based on the original teachings).
genuine question. How can you trust the "Living Prophets"?? This entire argument is based on the fact that the LDS church has these prophets. How can you prove their claims to being prophetic? Jesus told us to beware of false prophets in Mathew 17. Someone who is LDS please respond and explain!
Ye shall know them by the fruits of their labor.
One example might be the come follow me program which was introduced to help saints learn to study at home, which was given just before the COVID pandemic prevented most people from attending church every Sunday.
@@cm4nxdthere are plenty of issues with the LDS church and regardless our subjective view of morality makes me a really bad judge of someone’s fruits. If we would take this quoted passage litteraly we would have to assume that the modern rabbinic Jews are actually correct because they have the best outcomes statistically when it comes to marriage success, educational attainment, criminal offenses.
Also you seem to be referencing a pro ported miracle or prophetic word that LDS knew to set this up before COVID but we see through biblical literature that just because someone or group is right about the future does not mean they are a prophet of god.
See Mark 13:22
One of our basic doctrines is that we all have access to spiritual promptings. I know that there is a living prophet on the earth today because I have prayed to know then followed the prophet's counsel. As my faith has moved me to act on his words, I feel comforted, guided and at peace. You can pray to know for yourself 😊
Prayer.
I don't mean to get in a Bible debate, but James 1:5-6 is a personal favorite in our church. "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God."
But it's important to be open to God's messages. Prayer without a willingness to accept God's answer will not profit you anything.
Protestants claim sola scriptura, which of course can't be found in the bible. End of discussion
Book of Mormon 2nd Witness of Jesus… One among many others, but it’s much more than just a witness. The point is that not scripture is witnessing but living people then and now and the. the BoM teaches revelation 101. Meaning, anyone bearing testimony of Jesus Christ through and by the Holy Ghost, is another living prophet. Is a person invoking the Holy Ghost not prophesying?
I'm so stoked to watch the Evangelical/Protestants come flooding in this comment section. I'd love to hear their rebuttals and explanations to this.
Hello 👋 I'm a Protestant. I'm just starting the video but will get back to you. I won't be able to watch it all the way through now so you may have to remind me. Peace 🕊️
Protestant here, two major rebuttals:
1.) we do not believe that one’s interpretation of scripture is above everything else. The Bible tells us to be under the authority of elders(pastors) and to submit to their authority. It also tells us to what criteria to judge the elders’ teaching by. We do believe that we are accountable to God to know what the Bible says and place ourselves under biblical teaching.
2.) The statement that Mormons believe in the same source as the Bible, God’s prophets. Does not jive for us. Mormon prophecy fails the biblical tests to determine if a prophet is truly from God. We would point to the predictions that did not come true and the fact that Mormon church hasn’t had massive archaeological finds at Cumorah hill as strong reasons to see Joseph Smith as a prophet who wasn’t from God.
@@sinjinseiber648 Your's is the third comment I didn't see a reply to, including mine.
@@adamkaine2714 - Did you actually read what I said above? I said "I'd love to hear their rebuttals and explanations to this."
What part of that says, "SO I CAN DEBUNK THOSE NERDS!"? Is that what you took from it? I said I'd love to hear their rebuttal and @sinjinseiber648 did that. They gave a rebuttal and explanation. Where did I say that I wanted to hear it so that I could shoot it down? Is that what I said? Did I say I would reply? What are you getting at, exactly?
@@harmonillustration Isn't the reason for your comment because you feel that evangelical arguments would not be strong, unless you are evangelical? You made a reference to thier rebuttal of evangelicals, did you not? So what was the purpose if you did not agree with them? If so, then you should be prepared to answer.
Since becoming aware of it, I thought that Isaiah 43:10 is clarified with verse 11. “There is no other saviour” adjusting it to be 1 sentence you could say “there is no other God through which salvation can come.”
@@codylane9035 Do belive in one God? And if so why do you think you haven't recieved a reply from the other side?
David Snell should start a channel like Dr. Mcclellan.
Wow, I really appreciate your sincerity, and that confirms what I was suspecting about the LDS church. "You are not based on scriptures", "You are following a prophet", "wine in the Bible was really non-alcoholic"????, Jesus miracle in wedding in Cana of Galilee was a fake???, if you are not not based on scriptures but on what scripture itself is based on: living prophets.", what does it means?
Honest question RE WoW: I understand that the WoW as lived now was given authoritatively by Pres Cannon in the 1920s. My question is: if the change came by revelation, then shouldn’t it be canonized? If not, then is it more like a policy prescription? Like the priesthood ban?
In my middle age when biblically faith based friends, acquaintances or others, brought up the issue of us having additional scriptures and modern-day revelation I said that I believe that nobody can put
A muzzle on God’s Mouth….DONE…. Hostile …NO… made my point 😊
This is a fantastic conversation about things I’ve always wanted to understand better between Christian faiths.
30:26 I don't think it's really necessary to fall into that "trap" either. Any serious reader of the Bible knows that the Bible ITSELF contradicts with the Bible all the time. There is no univocality even within the Bible, so what do some Bible verses allegedly contradicting the LDS doctrine really mean anything really?
Does football have a rulebook that one needs to follow? Basketball ? If you follow your own "unique" rules within either of these games, then you are not playing the same game. Why is it any different with biblical teachings ?
I always get the garden of Eden story we believe in, especially about Eve. I always get, “ where is that in the Bible?”
Some great arguments. But I have to say that the more I dive into the scholarship of the Bible, the more I discover how right Joseph Smith was about many things.. At least we can see on how many Protestants ideas evolved over time, instead of it being original to the Bible.
Certain facets of the gospel--that it comes through Christ alone, and not by works, but works confirm our faith and our gratitude for what He's done, should reach across all denominational lines whether LDS or Protestant. THAT is the cornerstone of Salvation. Everything else can be up for debate.
Absolutely. I've seen plenty of evidence for this between Christian denominations. Their issue is crossing Ephesians with 2 Nephi 25. Their ussue is Nephi saying "we're saved by grace after all we can do" and interpret that to mean after all our works but that isn't how the book of Mormon converts actually view that phrase. The lamanite King in Alma 24 says what it actually means he said "behold... It was ALL WE COULD DO was to REPENT before God... All we could do was repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stains... Therefore let us bury our swords that they may remain bright at the last day..." So what does all we can do mean? It means to repent, not works. So rewrite it and it says "we are saved by grace after [we repent of our sins]"
Is that different than other Protestants? Absolutely not. It's the same.
@@outof_obscurity It is similar, but not the same. It is not complete without a baptism of water and of the Holy Spirit, and fulfilling the commandment to endure to the end with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, retaining a remission of our sins. We believe that Faith in Jesus Christ unto repentance is essential, as well as a penitent attitude, broken heart, and contrite spirit as part of that close, lifelong covenant relationship with Jesus Christ is essential. Yes, the Atonement of Jesus Christ saves us and his sacrifice covers our sins, but a mouth confession ain't the same as what I've just described. And just for thought, which doctrine leads to a closer relationship with Jesus Christ? Why is the metaphor of the covenant relationship of bride and bridegroom used repeatedly in the old and new testament? It is a close, lifelong relationship, not a one-time, oral acknowledgement!
@@TroySchoonover agreed. Watch my full video on "works based" and I address this. It's the same between Catholics Protestants and latter day saints. Works are our actions not our covenants, and none of our three denominations believe you can act like Satan and claim to follow Jesus. So in this area we're all the same. It comes down to priesthood authority. Catholics claim they got it from Peter to today. Saints claim Peter returned resurrected with James and the translated John to ordain he and Oliver as apostles. Protestants were excommunicated and would have lost that authority. So when did they get it back? Did they get it back? And if the Catholics hold it why was there a Protestant movement? Clearly it had to be restored. Ironic how much Protestants focus on not doing works yet without priesthood they have no option but to do their own works. 🤔