YugiBoomer vs YugiZoomer - The Most Heated Debate In Reddit History
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
- this is the most reddit post of all time
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"Let's see who doesn't understand the basic game design."
*pull out duel disk*
Top 10 anime battles on reddit.
Someone has to animate this
Op would definitely pull out a stun deck then say “no I understand summoning…that it should be stopped at all costs so I don’t have to deal with it!”
@@ibra8096 you already know his ass is gonna top deck mystic mine XD
@@ibra8096 And thus, we would see that both sides are the same. Complaining about an aspect of the game, because they don't enjoy it.
The Reddit Duelist tournament
"Gemini is a dead mechanic."
How can Gemini be dead if it was never alive to begin with
Have you never played elemental hero neos alius?
@@-rolyat44I dunno, have you? No I'm serious, show me a deck where you legitimately Gemini summon neos alius.
@@-rolyat44 when was the last time you used Alius for it's effect to be normal summoned again and change it's name to "Elemental Hero Neos".
And if you bring up Gemini Spark then it's just the same situation as Driver or Loci, the card themselves aren't good, it's the incidental synergy.
Gemini comes in pairs so it has one more life to lose
Honestly every summoning mechanic can be broken because Konami can bend their rules whenever they want. Just look at fusions
Am I the only one who thinks that a duel monsters subreddit should have a rule where challenging someone is a valid method of solving an argument.
With witnesses confirming who won the best of 3 or if it was a 1 duel thing, in the end even that can become an argument.
Netdecking is like cooking
You need to know exact ingredient (and sometime steps) to know what kind of food you really want to make
But in the end you could make your own improved version after you mastery it
everything was correct except that last part. Creativity in yu-gi-oh is dead and gone.
Pretty sure you and farfa slightly missed the point here, Netdecking is when you see a winning YCS or something else deck and just straight up copy it no questions asked,
Sitting and researching on multiple decks is precisely what's not net-decking
The issue with net-decking is the people are borderline ignorant about their deck and tech options
'Like bro, why did keep card X in your deck but never used in in the past 20 games?'
'oh that card, idk how it's used, I just saw the YCS guy use it so I am using as well'
This is net decking
@@vivanmaurya No. Netdecking is just when you copy whatever the strongest decklist is from the internet. Not whatever mumbo jumbo you're trying to make it.
@@cfelton2nd some tech was straightly busted than other,so its quite understandable if few people using the same card from 20+ decklist (like ash on almost every deck)
@@vivanmaurya pretty sure what you're reffering is meta sheep mentality,not netdecking in general
In if thats guy was clearly new in the game,then its understandable
Because winning is main goal for few ppl
Imagine wasting your time arguing on Reddit.
both argument semblence a candle of truth but guy who challange the other to duel is mostly correct. i think the other guy should just say "ok, you understand the state of the game better than me then" because what else you can definitely answer which have better "understanding"
its like saying you're bad at driving then refuse to race in city because you argue that the city have random element of traffic
imagine wasting your time being on reddit
Based on one of the comments, I think the boomer played a floodgate stun deck. Which for some reason all boomers play because it doesn't require reading other cards.
Floodgate shutting down effect that related to monster was the major selling point for boomer
Hence why almost old school deck support always end in floodgate-style play (like buster blader or blue eyes synchro)
Its either you make so many complicated action, or just sit there with floodgate
@@abdurachmanromzy4778 It's just funny cause it fits the stereotype of boomers playing floodgate decks. There's a Ruggles quote that coder uses as a notif which says "And what do you do if you don't know the game? You play floodgates."
It really annoys me that instead of going to a format they like they instead stick with the Yugioh they hate and make it everyone else’s problem
@@FrostReavenot to mention hating on the lack of interactivity while at the same time feeding into it by playing uninteractive stun decks
seriously, the amount of times I played at locals and some dude in his 40's was playing either chain burn/stall exodia/floodgate stun turbo is crazy, like i get a lot of the points they make, i played yugioh back in the day too, and i also miss how it used to be, but I also spent the time learning each new mechanic and there is plenty the i like about the modern game too. but these boomers just playing floodgate stun decks and then complaining about the game dont really deserve an opinion honestly, they dont even bother to learn the new mechanics, but then somehow also think they are qualified to complain about them, like what?
Yugiboomers just have the same opinions because they netdeck these from each other.
Tell me you are a clown without telling me you are a clown,guess what you are the clown
You can say the exact same thing but even worse about the zoomers who worship pak and content creators
As a Yugi-Zillenial, I’m still wondering what’s the animosity amongst the community for preferences of formats. Is there no filter for grown ups in the community and grown ups can’t accept that people prefer different formats? I might be too optimistic.
@@raandomuser710 They respect the opinion of good players like pak which isnt the same as worshipping. There is a reason they respect their opinions that much. Its the fact that they have multiple tops and a deeper understanding about the game which makes them qualified to comment on the competitive aspect of the game. Of course these players will be more out of touch with the casual playerbase
@@yato7030 pak worshipper spotted
I think alot of older players are forgetting that new/returning players are thrown into the game after YEARS of powercreep. They weren't there to see each individual brick being laid, they have no idea that certain mechanics were made to powercreep older ones (e.g. banishing vs banishing facedown). All they see is a wall of text and you special summoning monsters for 5 minutes straight.
a lot of returning players act like we woke up one day and boom we have 5 new summoning mechanics and new rulings, there are entire shows dedicated to showcasing each summoning mechanic a lot of newer /younger players grew up with these shows as well so did older players who have stuck to playing/watching Yugioh
They come back to the game after 10+ years and expect NOT to have a lot of catching up and adapting to do
Yugioh definitely has needed a system to teach people to play the game one step at the time. The only thing I know that did that was “Legacy of the Duelist” game. That’s how I learned modern Yugioh
But also, a lot of the new/returning players didn't realize that they weren't there to see each individual brick being laid either. Is it not irrational to come back to the game after FIFTEEN YEARS and expect it to stay more or less the same? Yugiboomers bitching about hand traps while they're older than counter trap cards will never be not stupid in my eyes. They KNOW about Kuriboh, it's the OG handtrap, and yet when it comes to Ash Blossom suddenly they have a problem.
Synchro summoning. Need a Tuner, add their levels, summon the monster.
Xyz summoning. 2 monsters, same name, literally stack them on top.
Pendulum summoning. To be fair, this is complicated enough to summarize in one sentence.
Link summoning. 2 monsters, count their link ratings, summon it.
Even Fusion summoning rarely do the iconic "poly + 2 monsters specified" methods anymore. Shaddoll Fusion came out 9 years ago.
Even Ritual summoning no longer uses the old method. They HAVE TO change, otherwise Gishki and so many of its successors will never exist.
For what it's worth, I have always been open in welcoming new players and teaching them the basics. Even something as basic as "these cards share a word in their name, that's archetype. Cards within certain archetypes usually have similar effects, so you can skip some blocks of texts." But when I see people just dismiss the concept of fucking hand traps which are as ancient as the game itself, it does get exhausting. Are you even a REAL Yugiboomer if you don't understand hand traps when all they are is "Kuriboh, but better"? And this is the most basic of the basic, you teaching a Yugiboomer how Kuriboh works will just end in them accusing you of mansplaining Kuriboh. Meanwhile, I sat here thinking "bitch, if you know this then you don't get to pretend you don't know what Veiler does".
Special summoning is also a lot like ladders, either you climb them one step at a time or good luck roping yourself up the wall. They just see the opponent summoning a lot of monsters and go "this is too hard I don't want to understand". Meanwhile, how do you even know when to break the ladder steps if you don't even want to observe your opponent climbing it?
The big problem with Yugiboomers isn't that YGO has become too hard. I'm sure a lot of veterans will sympathize. The big problem is that, even with their hands being held, they just refuse to learn because "card text long, special summon bad, hand traps bad". And the ones who do actually want to learn doesn't bitch like this on the internet.
@@user-hz5zn8yd1vand Konami is recognizing they are asking for people to adapt to too much, which is why they started things like Speed Duels and Time Wizard.
I'm a yugiboomer, the state of the game is pretty much the same from beginning to end. expensive staples that go out of meta once they've been reprinted only to be replaced by new, more powerful staples, an ever revolving door of meta changes you can barely keep up with and people complaining about it all.
I quite like the game as it is now, it's a lot more interesting than it was in 2003-2006, deck variance is a lot better now and archetypes make the game feel thematic, back in my days you just put as many sacky cards as you could in your deck hoping to blow out your opponent into a simplified gamestate and hoping they don't top deck a blow out against you. It was boring, there was hardly a gameplan.
The only thing you can do if you're overwhelmed by the state of the game is to cry about it, don't compare the childhhood memories of a game you didn't understand to the game as it is today, there were frustrating aspects about the game back then too. If it takes a duel to prove a point then the proper comparison would be to put a meta deck from the time and the pile of jank you played at the time.
This is a fairly reasonable take. I don’t think they are wrong to not like the modern Yugioh they are entitled to an opinion. What I take issue with is them trying to force their needs and opinion on others and generally making a nuisance of themselves. They need to just go to goat format because they will never like modern Yugioh no matter how much it’s balanced because it’s not as laid back as they remember
@@FrostReave the problem is, they probably never played goat or yata lock format, I myself know it existed but I was barely in middle school and couldn't afford it and I would bet it was the same for the boomers complaining.
I would bet that if they played goat format they'd complain again, saying that it isn't what they remember.
@@vaxel0068 Yeah maybe. Nostalgia does have a way of blinding people
Same. While powercreep can be unpleasant, its made up by the sheer variety of cards and decks that are now playable.
For example, playing dinos was impossible for me growing up as the best we had was Dinosaur's Rage. Nowadays, almost every "type" of deck has a decent foundation to work with.
If archetypes weren't a thing, we would all be playing generic good stuff decks like Dragon Link and Cyberse piles. For all the power creep that occurred in this game, we can at least have more deck variety now.
I never believed that the actual amount of special summons ruins a certain archetype, rather than what Board you end on. I can special summon 4 Times to end on a midrange Board, or I can special summon 10+ Times to end on a very simmilar Board. Some Decks just take longer to play out, critisize time rules if u want to. Soft FTKing someone with your combo because he didnt draw enough Handtraps is stupid, no matter how many Times you summoned
Edit: A Deck that summons 4 time could never be a problematic unfun expe...oh wait, Centurion 💀
It's basically "the Flower Cardian situation". We never see yugiboomers complain about that deck despite having notoriously long combo lines because it doesn't end on anything substantial, meanwhile you can do a simple Salad line and end on like 4 interactions that takes 10 minutes MAX and they'll start crying or some shit.
If the board isn't strong then who gives a shit how long it takes to get there.
@@thepronoob4039 it's funny, my Yugiboomer friend does actually has a problem with the decks that can effectively play for minutes/endlessly but having nothing strong to end on.
He legitimately called my Fur Hire deck "boring and non-threatening to play against."
There is some truth to this. But trying to define the problems Extreme Yugi Boomers have is pointless. Its wildly different from what they remember so they dislike it. Its really that simple from what I've seen
@FrostReave it's not only different problematic to the game it's apart of, making large portions redundant and alienating old and new players alike.
Also, I have a problem with Flower Cardian just as much as I have a problem with Prank Kids, just as much as I have a problem with Dragon Link, any pendulum deck, and even something as particular as Striker. The end board is distinct from the process to getting there. On this note, at least Striker manages an interesting end board, despite the overreliance on tagging via special summoning.
The shorter the combo per turn, the closer the game returns to the way Takahashi intended it.
@@Reapehify A game does not need to be simple to be good. Besides which Yugioh is a complicated game not by design but because of 25 years of additions. That’s what happens in any game although Konami has certainly been fueling it out of greed. How Takahashi envisioned the game is irrelevant.
None of these are objective complaints. They are subjective opinions and should be spoken and treated as such. Just be honest and say you don’t like how the game is now and stop trying to force your opinions on others
And you need to accept that it’s never gonna go back because that’s a fact they can’t make any of the changes that you suggest even if they were valid. Either adapt, go to old formats, or quit and find something else you like.
"Listen here kid. I had to build my deck from scratch, and back then I had nothing! I worked my way to the top of locals from the very bottom with nothing but pocket change and a La Djinn Turbo deck, so I'll be *damned* if you get to -pay off your student loans- get a decklist for free!"
Pull Yourself Up By Your -Bootstraps- boosterpacks
Good points aside, the whole post, the attack on net-decking and the further clown show in the comments alongside the mentions here and there about an "insufferable deck" leaves me to think that this guy threw together some stun deck by throwing in as many floodgates as possible and automatically thinks that building a deck is that easy.
The guy plays crooked cook stall in like silver rank, and think he's "hot stuff" for beating the worst meta deck pilots ever. They did delete all their bad posts but you can probably Wayback Machine to find them or something.
Whenever I hear someone they are a Yugi Boomer and they are very clearly hostile it’s pretty safe to assume they are a stun abuser from what I’ve seen.
Also this might be off topic but I did once see a Stun Boomer get redeemed. He was baited into playing exo sister and ended up being a one trick with them. So let’s not be too hostile they may yet be redeemable
His "I have in the past shown how reliant you people are on special summoning" probably means he summoned fossil dyna or something and the opponent couldn't out it
100% played stun and then acted like he understood special summoning and the like while omitting the fact he refused to ever need to understand them because he just locks them out with floodgates and forces everyone to play some braindead 2003 variant of yugioh
@@ArthastasiaThis is why I play floo against people in silver floodgates 😂
I dont think people deny that calvinball playground yugioh existed, i think "the yugioh you remember never existed" refers to some imagined period when the actual meta game was perfectly balanced, fun and simple
It's also that it wasn't a problem with the games development, the yugioh from back then wasn't a result of it being a better game, it was lack of information. If yugioh was as popular now as back then there would still be little kids playing a lower power format that they think exists (source: there's a kid at my locals who still thinks this is how yugioh is)
Exactly. You can still go play a deck with 10 YGO cards and 60 from other TCGs in a playground, nobody's stopping you. The problem is these people get into MD ranked, want everyone else to play like that and start to cry and whine as soon as they see a link monster. Idk what Farfa is going on about in this video, OP is just a generic boomer that clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.
agreed, from now on, we need to settle twitter arguments in a duel, like real yugists
Even now I play what is basically schoolyard yugioh with my friends. Mostly because we’re all bad at the game. Literally just a bunch of random cards that vaguely work together and I love it.
That's what really different for "old yugioh and new yugioh" for me.
Back then you play with your friends or local casually. No netdeck, no meta, just kids playing cool monsters from anime.
As an online game, everything is taken more competitively and it kinda ruins that feeling for many people.
In the end, it's just a game and having fun is all that matters.
@@ave4622 Exactly. At the end of the day, playing for fun actually has you ending up having more fun. Who would’ve guessed?
It probably helps that my particular groups of friends is fairly close but a Discord call and a simulator and we’re off making the same jank we always have but with more cards, some of which are actually not terrible. The closest thing we have to a “meta” is keeping up to date with the banlist and even then we quite often ignore it because it’s funnier that way.
You are a older player that understands "playground" yugioh never died because it was made up by a group of friends at school etc. If you want to play "old school yugioh" you still can
Yea exactly. IMO, there are really different variants of ygo out there outside of GOAT, Edison, Trinity, HAT, etc. There will always be playground ygo, dorm room ygo, regular ygo, and true ygo. Playground and dorm room are practically the same thing but dorm room at least sort of understands mechanics a little better. Same with regular ygo and true ygo but regular ygo at least puts some leeway for rogue decks and true ygo is what you’d see in the big leagues like YCS’s and WCQ’s.
one of our tiny "locals" was out of current packs for prizing so we just got a 25th anniversary box of LOBE and did like a draft with it, playground stuff lol
This is why people in the anime settle things with card games, arguing for eternity would get real old
I mean, the bit where he lost me was when he trotted out the 'Maxx C keeps combo decks in line' thing. Because, no, that's not the actual effect Maxx C has on the game, and saying that reveals that your understanding is a bit surface level. And then of course it turned out that he had no idea how arguing on the internet works.
Well, both didnt insult each other so both didnt know... And then they kissed
Except that's not what he said. He said special summoning should come at cost, and where a card game no longer had cost the next best check is giving more advantage to your opponent. He's not wrong.
Nowhere did he say Maxx C was good, just that it's necessary for a game that is designed to vomit your deck onto the field in combo because that process requires a x too many summons without cost (there is no drawback for you to do so) and therefore the next best thing to cost is more advantage for your opponent (card advantage is the replacement for cost of special summoning, because you shouldn't be allowed to do so without a cost and there is no punishment against you so the obvious next best solution is a benefit to your opponent). This is just self-evidently true.
The game has eroded in power creep so that the limited conditions (special summoning, graveyard, banished zone) are now normal and even central areas for resources to trigger and loop. Calling your graveyard "The second hand" means the game has collapsed in on itself and needs to evaluate where it's at mechanically.
At this point, I think Yugioh would benefit extremely from standard set rotations and official historical formats that receive support. This would allow Yugioh to pivot in the future and move away from the weight of their own game saturation. Maxx C is both a symptom and a solution to a game that is constantly trying to correct the mistakes it's made but can't undo. Mystic Mine is another example. These cards are not too dissimilar in what they attempt to achieve and why the community is polarized on them. Rather than band-aid the power creep, Konami should reconsider the rules and start over. Vanillas suddenly matter if your legal pool of card is 3-500 and you can't do all the combos you currently can.
@@Reapehify Yeah, see what I mean? Self-evidently, a rant from somebody who's never played in a modern format without Maxx C, and thus think it's necessary because it 'gives summons a cost'. And then goes as far as to claim that that absurd statement is self-evidently true.
@@Gilphonhonestly, anybody who says Maxx c is good for the game inherently brain dead and you should discard all opinions of immediately.
No card should say if you play this card you win the game. That’s what Maxx c is. It’s a cancer that warps formats around itself and necessitate equal as cancer solutions like called by the grave. The mere existence of this card invalidates any deck that has to special summon more than 3 times. People who say special summoning should have a cost in the form of Maxx c are stupid. It doesn’t give a cost to special summoning, it just says if you play the game I win.
@@Csthh So, I agree with you more than the other guy, but I think you're also lacking a bit of nuance. It is format warping? Certainly. But whether that's a good thing or a bad thing depends on the format. It meant the OCG didn't have to worry about Infernoble hand looping, for example. But on the other hand, not having it meant that we didn't have to worry about Spright being tier 0
The only Maxx C take I'd say is definitely wrong is the 'it's necessary' one. Because it directly, provable isn't, and many of us have been playing in the format that proves that for years.
It doesn't sound like a game problem to me, it sounds like a no friends problem. People already found other formats and friend groups to play with that isn't the official format. If the person can't find people who want to play the same way, then it's not the game's problem. Yugioh is just cardboard paper/digital pixels. People determine the rules.
Holy i was about to defend the boomer cause i feel the pain of not having a handtrap or playing against a " handtrap doesnt matter " board that completely destroys you, but that s an insanely good point i forgot about.
I feel like there should be a massive notice in master duel and like.... Everywhere that there are alternatives and if u dont like big ass combo playstyle/meta/yugioh right now - go play old slower formats.
holy shit you really hit em with the "L + Friendless"
A bit harsh but completely correct they should go to a format they like instead of causing problems everywhere else. Everyone has different wants and needs but its unfair to try and force unreasonable demands on a community just because you dont like it
this was by far the funniest thing to sit in on during stream
The biggest thing about netdecker arguments is that it's the most non-issue thing I can think of. Some people will clarify and say "it's not an issue to find something online and use it to learn more, it's the guy who just picks up a deck he doesn't understand and runs with it just because it's good" but I think this distinction is not important!
If that was actually an issue, why is there not the same amount of scrutiny over the guy who just slots in random garbage without really considering why it's there? We can say "but he's just having fun and exploring on his own terms, the netdecker is just a weird sweat" but the fact is both players are terrible, but the netdecker at least has more coherent tools with which to understand a potential gameplan compared to the guy running some wacky pile deck that contains a bunch of funny jank that may or may not pop off. Not saying that you can't or shouldn't make slop piles(they're funny and i like them) but I'm kinda tired of people acting like it's some ignoble deed to copy a deck verbatim and be permabad at it as if people don't make their own slop decks month after month and also learn nothing about good play
It actually does matter somewhat. Specifically Meta Sheep who are so obsessive about winning a video game without putting in any effort they try to become a knockoff copy of better players. Which creates very boring and static gameplay
But the issue with the netdecking argument is it doesnt differentiate between copy cats and players using it as a base or to learn. Making it basically meaningless
@@FrostReave you're acting like slopdeckers can't be obsessed with winning too. just like you stereotype netdeckers as uncreative sheep, i can stereotype the guy who makes a pile deck that slots in random untested nonsense and floodgates as an equally uncreative sheep who just looks up random blowout cards he heard about hoping to get wins.
i can stereotype all of them as gravekeepers users who think they're sticking it to the meta slaves- what do i accomplish? i'm just assuming the intentions of someone who i think is playing the game the wrong way.
in my eyes, if three people play the same meta deck, their skill with it and individual choices in what they add to it ends up being what makes each duel different. but if three guys all come in with incoherent decks that lose after i use dd crow once, they all feel the same to me because at a baseline they all rely on being lucky more than being good at yugioh. see how easy it is? i can say anything i want about you and you can say anything you want about me and neither of us get any closer to really bridging the gap
@@armorparade Unnecessarily long post I can see multiple ways to compress. Anyway I was just criticizing neck deckers because they a slight nuisance to the community.
I never defended other groups so I have no idea pile builders were even brought up with such salt. But you seem to be implying anyone who doesn’t net decks is bad or a bad builder which is simply a dumb notion.
@@armorparade Slopdeckers are obviously obssessed with winning or they wouldn't complain incessantly about others using proven net-decklists.
It's 100 percent them complaining that people play competent decks and their homemade decklists are actually horrible. So they end up blaming the other person with a well-constructed deck instead of their own building skills.
This is why I like the rush duel format. It has the best of both sides.
No special summon nor 300 different summon mechanics but you still summon bunch of monsters
No quickplay or chainlink
Vanilla cards are still viable
Traps and tribute summon actually mean something
The only con is it being glued to fuxking duelinks
Glad you found your safe haven. It really does suck Konami is pulling a classic Komoney and repeating their mistakes. I wish more Boomers would go where they can be happy
@@FrostReave I don't play rush duel because it's tied to duel links. Even if you only want to play rush duel you still need to play on other 8 or so worlds and horrible speed duel format for events and gems.
I'd rather play against kashtira and purrly than to play duel links.
@@quackduckquack Yeah same, RIP. I like modern Yugioh overall but I had a real interest in Rush Duel too just not enough to give Konami my soul in exchange
i will be honest, if you have problems with the tcg for special summoning but not rush duels for normal summoning more than floo you need to reconsider lmao literally just changing the name of the mechanic
@@joplin4434 There is a big difference in unlimited tribute summon and special summon and that is you actually need to draw the tribute summonable monster where special summon boss monster from extra deck is always available.
Also each floo cards searches each other and has floodgates on legs and plays on opponents turn. Rush duel has little to nothing on opponents turn except trap cards.
You should try playing the game a bit first before telling people to reconsider. I can see you have no idea what you are talking about
Idk, the thing about “the yugioh you played(as a child) never existed” I think is a very valid counterpoint to people who hate the modern day game. The current day equivalent imo wouldn’t be playing a crap deck like war rock or something into the current meta, it would be like bringing whatever cards I have on hand(even if they were banned cards) and expecting to be able to play the game with others. Unless those others are also people bringing whatever cards they have it’s going to either be A: they don’t want to play because you’re not using legal decks with legal cards or B: they don’t want to waste time against someone who barely understands the game on a basic level, let alone a micro or macro level
When someone says “the yugioh you played never existed”, they are basically saying “playing smash bros with hazards and items on is NOT the same as playing competitively”. I use smash bros as an example because imagine if someone played smash bros as a child(melee or OG), usually played on like hyrrule with items on, stopped playing for a decade or so, then came back to the game and tried to get back into it and was frustrated that everyone only plays competitively(legal stages, no rules, etc). You can still play with items on temple, just don’t expect many people to want to play with you, and don’t expect any game experience you get there to translate over to a remotely competitive environment.
The yugioh you played as a child didn’t exist because it didn’t give you the incorrect impression of what the game is actually about. That 2004 era of yugioh wasn’t about normal summoning kuriboh and pass cause your hand is 4 high tribute monsters, it was about playing as sacky as possible with some of the most powerful cards to ever be in this game. IMO that “we” is doing a lot of heavy lifting because I ask, who came back to the game after a long hiatus and truly expected to be able to continue to play the game even slightly competitively with the deck you used a decade ago?
I understand the point you are making with this, but I think I also overall disagree. While what you are saying is entirely true from a competitive standpoint, a lot of the Yugiboomers didn't play competitive, they played lunch table. They had rubber band decks with filler cards that they could buy with change they scrounged up until they could make their own money, or until they decided to full invest into the game. I don't even think OP was discussing the game in a full competitive sense, since he was insisting on both the newcomers as well as the oldies wanting to get back into things. Yes, the competitive scene does matter, but a lot of people played this game because they liked certain monster types of card arts. I knew a guy whose entire deck revolved around his single copy of "Frostosaurus," and a middle schooler who ran venom swamp while owning zero "Venom" monsters. This random pack filler nonsense was a very big part of the YGO culture, and I do not think that a person should be shamed for thinking that the game has become so precise and hyper-optimized that is makes that style of play seemingly obsolete, even in the novice brackets.
Even with the Smash Bro's analogy you made, you gave an example of a casual player coming back to a competitive culture that has basically ruled out casual play. It should not be the fault of the newcomer/returner that both the game and community left them behind after years of change. All this means is that the scene has changed, but it does not deny that plenty of people played this party mode and look back fondly on it.
Frankly, I think this still comes back to YGO having the least effective onboarding experience you could come up with for a game, if you can call it onboarding at all. You could probably convince boomers and newbies to get into things if you could ease them into it, but there just isn't a rational way to do that without it taking literal hours of hyperspecific plays and explanations.
@@GambeTama I don’t deny some of this, but from my viewpoint this game cannot be played “casually”. While yes my smash bros analogy did have some issues, this was because in smash bros you can choose to play casual. Go ahead, play with items and stages on. Just don’t expect to understand the game in any real sense nor handle it when you play against someone with a hint of skill. Yugioh doesn’t have a “casual” mode. Even potential solutions like rotation or going back to the days of T-set pass will not alleviate it. You will still be a part of a community and game that is about the W and how to achieve it. What’s the most optimal way to play and best way to build are still aspects of the game even in a bad deck. Hell even playing rubber band decks, people will still look at their bulk and say “maybe this 2 tribute vanilla is better to play over this ritual spell I don’t have the monster for.”
And frankly I don’t know what would need to be changed to make onboarding easier and more accessible. Those that want to go back to the way the game “used to be played” want to go back to a fantasy. To a game they didn’t understand at the time nor had the exposure to truly experience. It’s somewhat revealing how those that complain the game “isn’t how it used to be” are people who didn’t play it seriously in the first place. Farfa even mentions how he used to play a masked beast ritual deck and talks about “tearing up the playground” while his friends were on rouge doll. The game seems more fun when the way you play it is to loosely copy what you saw off the anime/manga while not understanding anything deeper than the surface level “I summon masked beast and attack with DEMONIC FLAME!!”. What people were doing back then seems no different than playing pretend. How many of those that played back in the day would have continued to play if they were exposed to high level play? When they have to play against people on every broken card legal at the time?
@@Freebird1994
"Those that want to go back to the way the game “used to be played” want to go back to a fantasy. To a game they didn’t understand at the time nor had the exposure to truly experience. It’s somewhat revealing how those that complain the game “isn’t how it used to be” are people who didn’t play it seriously in the first place."
"The game seems more fun when the way you play it is to loosely copy what you saw off the anime/manga while not understanding anything deeper than the surface level 'I summon masked beast and attack with DEMONIC FLAME!!'. What people were doing back then seems no different than playing pretend. How many of those that played back in the day would have continued to play if they were exposed to high level play? When they have to play against people on every broken card legal at the time?"
I mean no offense, but I do find this mode of thought a bit condescending, or at least a bit dishonest, in that it continuously portrays people as being wrong for "not experiencing the game 'correctly'." There were rules when these people played. Many of them were simply playing with jank and had to work around it. Farfa had a ritual spell, a ritual monster, and a sonic bird to tie it together as best he could. Someone else had E-Hero beatdown with The A. Forces, and another had CoH Jinzo turbo. The point to all of this is that at the end of the day the games all catered to a certain experience that the current state of play cannot properly reproduce.
Moving more to the main point, the thing that always gets brought up when someone is introduced to "modern YGO," be they newbie or returner, is that the games do not feel like actual games. People who remember the old days remember N.Summon, set 2 and pass, then having to hope that their back row buys them the time they need to get a better board state going soon. Even in the synchro era, that kind of interactivity was possible with a number of Rogue decks. The problem is that, to an outsider trying to get in, that basic and simple flow of play just doesn't really exist on any level outside of custom formats. Whenever time this conversation comes up, it tends to sound the same:
- 8 minute turns of watching the op combo off practically their entire deck
- Non turn player has an Ash, Imperm, or scoops
- Decks have these 16 step formulae on how they are played to get the exact perfect unbreakable board, if the opponent doesn't surrender mid combo
- Decks you think look cool are actually unplayable because they were released a couple of sets ago, meaning generations of answers came out, as well as answers to the answers
- Bonus points to the Link era, for crippling virtually every other summon mechanic for close to three years, just to sell their hip new pointer cards.
- The whole extra series of conversations that occur if the game is being compared directly to a competitor (MTG, Hearthstone, LoR, VG, Pokemon, ect.)
The big issue here is that Konami, and to a lesser extent the YGO community, want to have their cake and eat it too. They want (if not need) more players to get into the game, but have little interest in the issue that the game hard filters people who aren't willing or able to full commit to playing on the rather high level it demands. YGO might very well be the only game I know of where the skill floor is higher than the ceiling, and little is provided to deal with that. The short answer is that the game needs a massive rules change that fundamentally alters how the it is played. YGO has never cared for mechanical balance, seemingly mutating over time rather than evolving, and it is in dire need of some form of consistency - as well as an adjustment of its card design philosophy. But I do not think Konami will ever do this, so the game will saunter along as is, for good or for ill.
We can all collectively discuss this until we are blue in the face, but at the end of the day, Farfa put it well in this video:
"If several people are all making the same complaints, then you have to at least recognize that there is a problem."
To be honest, this whole thing is just kind of making me sad now. I can see my decks on the shelf right next to me. Each one made during a different era, and updated to the best of my abilities - well over a decade of playing cards throughout my life, and I find myself slowly losing the passion to use them anymore. I could just "go play another format" but it has this hollow feeling to it, this demeaning admission of defeat that I just don't have it in me to play with my friends at the current level anymore, and I know they won't ever want to slow it down, leaving me as just a spectator. But in the end, I guess I should try to close things out on a good note. Even if I wind up bowing out and leaving, I do hope that you find much more satisfaction than I did, and I wish you the best of duels in the future.
@@GambeTama The issue is that this isn't something that master duel is fundamentally capable of providing by nature of existing as a digital card game. Every single digital card game has meta slaves and you can't force everyone who ever played the game to play at a casual level. This problem exists across every online card game that exists: Hearthstone, Magic Arena, Marvel Snap, Legends of Runeterra, all have meta chasers. This isn't remotely unique to Yugioh. There will always be people playing to win, and if you aren't there isn't any way to force them to play at your level.
The only way to ensure that you play at a casual level is to play against people who aren't playing to win, and a lower power level won't make getting blown out better. I really doubt most of the people complaining about modern yugioh would prefer to get blown out by BLS, Cyber Dragon, or Gorz. Balancing the game around a casual experience is a fool's errand, because they will always find something to be mad at.
The closest a game has gotten is maybe Magic's Commander format, which is probably only kept in check by being mostly played in individual playgroups, who can gentleman's agreement out of playing broken decks. Even with this, power level and play experience complaints are commonplace. Imagine how it would work in a digital card game, where there will always be at least some players looking to play the most broken decks possible.
Part of the thing with "the yugioh you played didn't exist" is that people are comparing how they casually played in like 2004 to how the game is played competitively a whole 20 years later and then saying the game is bad when those two are not even remotely comparable, especially when old ygo had its fair share of homogenous and or toxic cards that made for low interactive games like now just in another manner, you can still play yugioh casually like in 04 by making random decks with just the dumb stuff you find fun also, i do the same with a friend where we play the digimon tcg all the time and its just we using dumb decks we made.
If you went back and saw how competitive ygo was you'd see the same thing with absurd no cost cards that could break entire boards like raigeki or harpies, cards like imperial order which negated 2/3rds of the game or even OTKs thanks to BLS envoy of the beginning or absurd powercreep from cards like cyber dragon which made tons of monsters completely irrelevant, or cards like cyber stein/metamorphisis which cheated out the fusion monsters because fusion summoning them is a stupid task in those older metagames.
I disagree, kinda, with the first point. Gamers have always attempted to optimize their game. But, if you'll allow me, optimizing your game has become optimized. When I played filler it was because that was all I had, but I tried to make it work as much as possible. 4 monter reborns was optimal. Now tho our access to information is optimized. So optimizing our game has become optimized. But the desire to optimize has always been there.
This is completely incoherent. Needs to be rewritten if you want to avoid giving people seizures
@@FrostReave if you can't understand what's been said, then that's on you.
@@jackferdinger4180 Sure pal because you are such an expert. Its very clear you are a waste of time so enjoy zero likes
i am yugiboomer and even i hate maxx c with passion. my "schoolground" meta (of about 6 person) reach chaos in which leads to everyone just play light dark pile with jinzo, power trap (mirror force, torrential, bottomless), the all banned spell (pot of greed, reborn, change of heart, snatch steal). but i know how busted and unfair maxx c is, you want good "special summon to much need punish"-card? see nib
Absolutely true. Theres so many fair handtraps we dont need the roach because Maxx C doesnt balance the game it just makes it more random and frustrating
@@FrostReave worst maxx c apologist say it needed to balance the game.. like wtf, maxx c is the least skilled card in game.. 0 skill expression, just shotgun in standby and 99% you got the value out of it while you also cant play around it unless you have immediate answer to it. i could also argue that similar "lingering" handtrap is bad design (maxx c, droll, shifter) but maxx c is biggest offender since it literally doesnt restrict you whatsoever while also usually always result at least card neutral / pluses
@@justsightseeing1 Honestly Droll and Shifter are a problem because they arent just handtraps they are floodgate handtraps. And floodgates are just inherently a problem I would argue. Anyway I dont disagree with anyof this
You can argue Maxx C is unfun, and I might agree to some extent.
It randomly snipes you for playing first and you just get fucked.
However, that's the closest thing we have to balancing against going first, so in a best of one especially, it is a strictly necessary evil.
@@1stCallipostle you talk like people dont draw maxx c going first..
As somewhat of a "yugiboomer" , I just followed all the animes until the end of Vrains season 1. My main gripe with the modern game used to be handtraps and then the oUr TuRn (birds and mermaids being "unfair" to my unexperienced ass, tear-ishizu was still a mistake imo). But I got better and embraced the chaos and now Vanquish Soul is my best friend in MD (can't affort them irl ;-; thx komoney)
Honestly it’s completely rational to dislike Floo and Tears. Floo is brain dead floodgate turbo and Tears is so obnoxious
There's a wider argument to be made about netdecking being bad for the game because while there are Josh Schmidts out there making tournament winning decks, it doesn't mean he made the best deck of the format. All it means is he made the best deck that anyone had seen and played that format. There's 10,000+ cards in the game and very little of the formats in the history of the game are completely solved (and the ones that are have significantly less cards in the pool). Netdecking what wins a YCS and everyone not experimenting means the game is more stale and uninteresting when no one tests the plethora of cards available and doesn't actually deck build and just thinks "well this deck won, so it must be the best". It makes yugioh worse.
"We understand how the mechanics work"
* looks at the damage step guide *
"Well..."
Knowing Game Mechanics ≠ Knowing Game Design.
The first is from the perspective of *playing* the game, the second is about actually *making* a game. Just because you are very good at a game that doesn't mean you would be good at making/fixing/balancing said game, and the other way around is also true.
Basically, they were both right and wrong at the same time.They were both just awfull and insuferable in general too
I dont think either of their points are objective. They are subjective opinions. The mistake they made was believing they are absolutely 100% correct and fighting over it. Both arguments have some truth they both have some flaws
I think a problem with a lot of these arguments is not that they come out of a place of love but entitlement, you can see in the same post op bragging about the game being as big as it is thanks to him and the rest of the yugiboomer army and thus the game needs to change to accomodate his twisted nostalgia driven understanding of it, thus not only invalidating his own points but also muddying the waters and drowning actual valid criticism by older players that genuinely want the best for the health of the game in a sea of dumb complaints and whining.
The whole "You owe us for the game still being around" is so stupid, he doesn't sound like the kinda guy that bought product after Yugi stopped being featured in the booster packs...
It kinda kills me seeing " understanding yugioh game design" and "being good at yugioh" considered to be the same thing
Honestly, this mentality is no different from scrub mentality in other genres like fighting games. A person who remembers mashing buttons and laughing at the pretty colors on the screen as a kid has become an adult, wants that same experience, gets absolutely bodied by people who actually hit up Training mode and read articles on Dustloop, and then goes on reddit to complain about how fighting games have been ruined over the years and just aren't fun anymore. They never had a competitive mindset or desire to learn to begin with, and their claims of "I know how to play" are dubious at best if this is such a huge issue for them.
What worse is that these people just paint a bad light on whenever someone address actual problems of the game. Now you have to read through their post constantly wonder if this person is just another scrub or are they genuinely giving a constructive criticism
It is insane how often you can find a middle aged man have a mental breakdown and go on about how back in his day, throws were banned at the arcade
As someone who was a Yugi boomer and a Returnee. Instead of complaining, why not learn and adapt the changes. I came back to the meta around late 2019 in the coin toss format of strikers and decided to learn Pendulums and it frankly didn't take much time to actually learn it.
I came back to competitive pokemon after years and its so much more fun now. Imo sometimes newer changes does make a game more fun because it challenges your ability as a gamer/player to learn and adapt
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That profile pic kinda sus
"The game i played did exist" into "vanillas and rituals were good before gishilnodon ruined the game" 😂
I think the main thing that ticks me off is that yugiboomers so often put forth their complaints to the community, like obviously there isnt really other places to put them but the community cant do anything about their problems with the game so really they kinda are just telling people that the game they like is a bad because they personally dont like the game anymore or because they havent yet put in the time to learn it and went to complaining quickly
Me too, I wish they would stop hounding the community for everything they think is wrong with the game. We clearly don’t give a fuck, and don’t really have the power to do shit either.
One time some bozo magic Yugiboomer suggested that we boycott the game.
I was insanely pissed that day, like why the fuck should we care if Yugioh isn’t the game you remembered. We have no obligation to do shit about it. The bozo shut up after I referenced why the magic community didn’t boycott after the announcement of the reserve list.
I wish they would stop hounding us, and just write their complains to Konami.
Oh come on...what's the alternative then? "The game sucks ass, but I won't tell anybody, so it can never be improved on?"
This is the most clear and logical explanation on the issue that remains polite. Im using that in the future.
I will say what they should be doing instead of tying themselves to something they dislike is going to Rush Duel or GOAT format.
This logic is so braindead it hurts. "We can't do anything about it so why complain" people aren't complaining to YOU specifically and they aren't doing it so YOU specfically go and fix it. Its putting it out there and spreading it in hopes that Konami does something about it. For all the tards in this comment section saying "Yugi boomers need friends" "Yugi boomers can go play other formats 4head" part of the reason its important for said Yugiboomers to complain is so that Konami enables such play in Master Duel (As its currently the most popular way to play Yugioh afaik) "oh but it has a casual mode" where Meta decks still fill the gamemode AND you aren't rewarded for playing.
The biggest issue with Yugioh that i see, is that the majority, forget that America isn't the only country to exist. Not everyone has a gameshop or "locals" they can attend in 5 minutes from their home. For the most part Master Duel is used by a large majority of casuals, returning players and "Yugiboomers".
However Master duel doesn't support these players at all, you can have a private match sure, but you can't even have the name be the format you want to play, you can't do a private match where you have access to all cards so you can make a deck for each year and play it, you can't choose to go into a "Ranked 2004 Format" section and play like its 04 again, you can't then go from that into "Ranked 2012" you have ranked, which consists of the same 4-6 meta decks or self burn / disconnects.
The game needs to accomdate the different formats and time periods people want to play in. In doing that, most sane Yugiboomers will have nothing fully justifiable to complain about, as they CAN just go play ranked "Chaos" format or "Ranked Unlimited format" or jump into a private match with everything unlocked so they can experiment with different decks without needing to drop a million dollars on card packs in hopes they can build the deck that they may or may not even like to use. As things stand now though, you can't do that, which is why you have so many left complaining hoping that with enough of it, something will change. Things don't change if you say nothing. Things might change if you do say something, no matter how unlikely it is.
@Chaotic_H3LL I want to remind you that I made this comment on a video about a post made to the master duel subreddit which is not Konami owned and is entirely driven by people in the yugioh community, yes Konami should be more accommodating to older returning players as they still make up a large amount of the potential new player base but as you've said in your first paragraph, it's Konami that needs to do this, if they want to complain, the best places to reach the people that can actually do stuff about this is the Konami twitter or the MD surveys, however doubtful it is that they actually do anything, my point wasn't "we can't do anything so why complain" it was "we can't do anything so complaining to us doesn't do anything"
Kid farfa: "I'm playing masked beast turbo!"
Kid me: " Good thing I have 5 copies of michizure."
Old yugioh is boring new yugioh can be one sided which is why the middle ground that is Edison is fun
Its a matter of opinion. Its not objective. People should just go to the format that suits them. You dont see me going to GOAT format and trashing it that would be stupid why do they do the same to modern formats
@FrostReave because time and change goes in one direction, and legacy formats are not the ones that changed from a preceding format.
You'd probably hear a lot less issue with modern if there were actual official alternatives formats the same way MTG has alternatives.
@@Reapehify Yeah there should be more official formats for old players. That’s completely separate from you forcing your problems on others. You don’t have to like what the game has become and never will do why do you continue wasting your time and making everyone else miserable out of spite.
@FrostReave you seem really bothered by my analysis to the point that you're painting me as problematic for pointing out real problems with the game. Objective problems that have implications whether you like or dislike how the game is. The only one positing negatively is you. I spoke about the game state and mechanics, because that's what the game is. I could have made a different argument that the current player base has ADHD and should spend 6-months playing chess to get an appreciation for "simple" game play and realize simple doesn't mean boring. But I didn't; you, on the other hand, seem perfectly content ignoring arguments made, invalidating people, and assuming negative intents.
Of course it's fucking obvious that people critiquing the game now don't want it to be what it is, that's like saying you have a bug-breaking glitch in a game and just being totally fine with it; or not doing anything about getting sick. And I understand that you're probably not educated on the language let alone care, but the analogy to sickness is based specifically around the idea of detrimental gameplay outcomes arising from pathological issues. That's not to say that you can't find it fun, but it has a negative effect on the game as a whole. It has stalled a new generation of players for modern, it has made a large portion of the game redundant and obsolete, and it creates homogenous and problematic play patterns.
And none of these are even my own personal issues, of which I have many gripes. The reason people like Farfa, Team Samurai, Dzeff, etc cover this, the reason returning and new players complain almost in the same way, and the subsequent exploration of Time Wizard formats all demonstrate THESE ARE REAL ISSUES.
Ignore them. Stick your in the sand. Be in denial. The issues still persist, even if you don't care, and they're gonna generate conversion and content just like this (and stagnate your player base, too).
@@Reapehify You never posted any analysis in this thread but I looked at a couple of yours but they are just your personal gripes they are not objective whatsoever. You think just because a group of people are unhappy the game they liked has change in 25 years somehow makes it objective you are sorely mistaken. Why are you acting like Yugi Boomers are somehow more valid and important then everyone else, that their opinion takes priority?
No one want to deal with you when you just spam the same posts over and over again in unnecessarily large proportions I might add, yet ignore or not understand the underlying points in responses you just brush it off.
It’s clear that you don’t care what anyone else thinks and are fine wasting your life. I however am quite sick of you and your obnoxious attitude so I’m just gonna block you
Master Duel should have a/some non-constructed format, like Draft. I'm not one to constantly bring up Magic: The Gathering, but Arena does have Draft as a format, where you pay premium currency to open packs, build from those packs, and once the event is over, those cards get added to your cardpool. This would not be difficult to implement.
All reasonable opinions about this are valid, I totally take points from all sides. I just think the game is so fun right now, regardless of lost mechanics, so I'll keep playing just because the game is so fun to me!
People hate yugiboomer because they're insufferable people who want the game change/reboot the game to their liking. Instead of curating their own banlist & cardpool aka house rules, they insist on the whole system to change.
Those people want the game revolve around them through their rose-tinted nostalgia lenses.
It's crazy that people are calling for a yugioh reboot when Speed Duel, Duel Links and Rush Duel ARE RIGHT FUCKING THERE
@@thepronoob4039 how to play competetive Rush Duel? i can't just move to Japan
@@ccc2839 play online. All major unofficial simulators have Rush Duel modes.
But yeah, if you wanna do IRL I'm afraid you're fucked. Blame Konami
I feel its very important to distinguish between calm Yugi Boomers and Extreme Yugi Boomers. I dont want to try and roll them into one negative group
@@ccc2839Duel links got rush duel
if the game isn't for you, don't change it to be for you. if the whole system of the game isn't for your Liking, then the game is simply not for you. if there were a criticism that can be (in a realm of reality) be implemented, then that criticism becomes Valid. but changing the whole design of the game isn't in the realm of reality. and more people need to know this.
Criticism is valid even if changes can't be implemented, a fact doesn't become less true if you can't do anything about it. I agree that if you don't like a game don't play it but at the end of the day yugioh isn't gaining new players and is losing old ones everyday, if Konami wants to keep thus cash cow for another 25 years they'd be wise to heed the communities cry
The game design has changed quite a lot in 25 years. The only ones who did that was Konami and they can just as well do it again. Just because you like how it is, doesn't mean everyone does and Konami is aware of feedback from players. Maybe you think it's illegitimate, but maybe it isnt.
Its more of an issue of taking their opinions like they are objective facts that should be forced upon the game. Just because you dont like something doesnt make it bad or that it needs to be changed necessarily unless its an objective problem
For me at least I just hate how f-ing conceited all of these guys are. It's always like oh it was way better back when we played, like dude no one actually wants to play normal lajin pass get over it. The argument is always ah cards from 20 years ago are no longer good no so that = game bad. Who gives a crap if rituals/vanillas/traps are bad, thats a good thing, those decks are boring AF. Honestly, I don't really think the format is bad at all. If you have played this format at all competetively you'll realize that most of these games all feel fresh and exciting and you rarely ever just watch your opponent play with themselves for multiple minutes. I understand that the game has gotten to the point where its too difficult for a lot of beginners to get in and its 100% a problem, but the solution definetly isn't yugioh bad we need to normal summoned skull. I think the real issue yugioh has had with beginners all this time is there was never an ELO system so beginners would just play people who were much better then them and get destroyed. If you let 500 rated andys play against litteral gms they would get frustrated and quit too. I think master duel was an absolutely amazing thing to get new players into the game, and would be extremely successful if the format hasn't been hot garbage for the entirety of the games existence. We basically got started on the worst format possible with full power rocks, drytron, and vdub. Basically, went straight into full power tearlaments for like half a year, and then went straight into purrely format. One of the most absolutely boring decks to play of all time, where every duel feels the same because half the deck is the exact same card with a different coat of paint, and every list is exactly the same because of the Maxx C tax. The biggest issue is that these players that are just getting into the game for the first time have never actually gotten to play an interesting format. For the love of god konami, please ban the earth insect and let us play an actual format where every deck doesnt have the exact same 12 nonengine.
There is no contempt here, but I think this tacitly accepts powercreep as a feature instead of a bug. Konami can't balance a game for shit, but they do just enough to keep you dumping your wallet onto the table. If modern was so great, people wouldn't be seeking out Time Wizard events. You can like something without dismissing all complaints about the current state of the game. Also, Maxx C is banned in the TCG and people just moved onto the next card to complain about. The ban list is a marketing tool used by the company to sell product, not to make you happy, and it's been that way for over a decade now. This game is in need of balancing through Master Rule changes, and that is a solution that can't just be purchased.
This suffers from the same thing you criticized, That being Bias. Just because you like something OR dislike something doesnt make the game objectively good or bad necessarily.
This is a matter of opinion the issue arises when you treat these subjective opinions as facts and try to force it on the game. Now if we were talking about Konami's greedy practices this would be a different story but old vs new yugioh is subjective
@@FrostReave Yeah I mean it was clearly biased. The whole point of my post was that I think the current yugioh tcg format is extremely fun and enjoyable, and I wish there was a way for the casual fanbase to experience that, but sadly the only good konami online simulator, is master duel, which is a different format and one where its not even possible to play slower alt formats like edison
@@liammcphelin4775 There are fan made simulators with those formats and places IRL that have such formats
I mean if you know who misprintprince is you wouldnt be surpised. He loved to argue. I actually think its wild you covered this as it was brought up in the drama center fb group.
The what group?
@@FrostReave the yugioh drama center group. It's basically what the name says, a place for posting people being dramatic.
@@shinigamikira9469 Must be a pretty big group Yugioh players are extremely divisive
I feel like Phoenix Wright music should've been playing while Farfa read all that.
Understanding the mechanic might not be the reason you win in a game where half of the battle depends on luck, but it helps a lot
Most of the reason I can reach master 5 with witchcrafter is because these players don't understand their deck mechanic
Like a d-link player who have a perfect hand but somehow end with savage, chaos ruler pass
Purrely end with plump and a couple handtrap, swoswo can't do anything other than 'if my girl and mo ye' combo line, etc etc
Yeah you can pretty easily read most tiered decks since they are basically played solely by copycats who’s only game plan is follow what a guide told them to do. The only issue is Maxx C being an extremely annoying variable
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Just throwing around words he doesn't understand, and over analyzing the other guy's mental state as if he was a psychologist. Classic reddit
Not gonna lie, I wouldn't have dueled him either. He sounds like the type of guy to have 30 decks made and all of them are Stun.
People dislike net decking because of the belief that it takes away from creative and original deck building. It’s a nuanced argument but thing is is that even if someone is net decking, they’re likely to still make adjustments and replacements to suit their meta and playstyle
I don’t mind modern yugioh or anything, but to be honest the most fun I ever had was when we used to duel and we could interact back and forth and duel used to last at least 10 turns, just the fact I could sit and talk to other person and interact in a fun duel was epic in my eyes, now days you cant do that. but still enjoy and like to see game modern it self and thrive thru the years
I hate old ygo i hate it. I hate if there arent 100 gazillion cards that you can theorize about
in the context of the game franchise yu-gi-oh, where every single conflict can be solved in a childrens card game they should settle this in a duel.
To be fair pendullum is a dead mechanoc by design.
Komani noticed pendullum was a mistake and nerfed it into the ground.
But they gave it some insane support in BTP and Elect
MisPrint Prince didn't make a good argument at all. Firstly the entire discussion begun with the state of modern Yu-Gi-Oh and how insanely hostile it is towards new and returning players. The counter argument to that was basically 'you're just bad at the game', so to prove the point that he's not 'just bad at the game' he challenged the critic to a duel. A perfectly reasonable challenge. The counter argument was TCGs have built in randomness in them and Bo1 aren't good indicators. The first argument is awfully flawed as modern Yu-Gi-Oh plays nothing like a traditional TCG, the randomness he's referring to is greatly negated in Yu-Gi-Oh compared to other TCGs. Moreover the randomness that still remains(going first, bricking your deck) are easily visible in any given game so if you lost the duel due to said randomness it would be painfully obvious to everyone viewing it. The second argument has some merit on paper, except we're not asking who the best player is but rather whether the returning player is bad at the game or not. If he wins this duel without the other player suffering from bad randomness as mentioned above than he's clearly not bad at the game. It's really that simple.
A lot of Yu Gi Oh's new player problem comes from only one format and no rotation.
People are going into a duel with cards/decks that are clearly 5 or 10 years behind in power level, it's not going to be fun or interactive.
If rotation/format is a thing, people will at least play with cards from sets around the same time.
Look... we come from a time when the anime had to explain pot of greed... basically every episode.
People like playing games differently. Thats fine and there should be ways for them to enjoy that without overlap. Both sides are valid and the ways to enjoy it should be easy to acess(e.g rush being jp and duel links exclusive and different formats mostly not having official events).
The main problem with people arguing is their basically saying the other side shouldnt be playing the way they want to play.
Well I agree up to the last sentence. Because most Yugi boomers instead going to the format they liked they stick with modern format just to abuse stun. Which is objectively problematic
@@FrostReave i don't disagree, but people who aren't yugi boomers also play those decks(I had a former friend who constantly played decks like this and he was not a yugi boomer).
I don't think the problem is the people and rather the fact the cards that allow this are legal, banning cards that allow floodgate stun decks should happen in the main banlist.
And then if those people want to play those decks they can have their own format with floodgates legal.
Yugioh I think needs a Commander style casual format that is accepted by the general populous. Basically to have casuals feel like they have a home.
People have been asking for this for a long time the issue is they always half ass it. Casual was added but it doesnt give any rewards and alot of people go in with overperforming decks defeating the point.
I think a good start is an actual solo mode like in Legacy of the Duelist with scaling difficulty
Like, I agree with Misprint's points but he is so annoying I am not gonna side with him, the other guy is funnier
The only issue I have with netdecking is people who don't even uderstand what the purpose of the deck is and they just mindlessly copy it. Also, another thing about netdecking is not because of netdecking itself but more just because of the raw amount of it. 2 things: you see exact copies of the same list running around with 0 variation AND there is little to no experimenting seen when playing against randos, which is not the case in other card games as you'll see people "brewing" all the time. I rarely see people "brewing" in YGO (maybe just a feeling, cuz Farfa has featured like ppl running 5 archetypes in one replays but like "brewing" is table 500 basically). Good players tend to modify netdecks anyway to arrive to results that fit their playstyle/locals/are simply even more improved lists but I can understand a part of the issue around netdecking.
You said you played bad decks with friends on the playground before, and you still can today. If you brought that rubber band deck to a competitive environment back then, then you would have lost, and the same is true now. You literally play rubber band style decks for a living through draft vids and jank builds. And you could chose to play worse.
And to be clear theres nothing wrong with that. I just dont like it when they act surprised to this and act like it was the games problem instead of their own
I cannot understand this fights at all.
I played yu gi oh when it came out, stopped playing, and came back 10 years later.
The game is completly different, but stills feels like yu gi oh.
And honestly, it's fun to play.
I think people love the old yu gi oh because of the nostalgia, not because it was an amazing perfectly balanced card game.
But the solution is easy.
Powercreep is necessary at some point of a card game life, so create an eternal format and older formats/formats with different restrictions.
For example. Infinite special summons vs 5 special summons max.
Or just straight copy old formats entirely. Cards until 2012 are legal, and the rules are the same we had that year.
Problem solved, but now you have the same people crying about those formats, even if it's what they want.
My main issue with yugiboomers is that, yes they have valid criticisms but they put it in a way that paints the older version of the game as superior. I started in 2008 and the version of the game I started with was with the OG Yugi and Kaiba Structure decks. I had come to understand deck building as just, throw the best cards together which is largely what that initial era of Yugioh was. Every person I played had similar lists and every game came down to Summoned Skull beat down. It wasn’t until my cousin introduced me and my friends to Synchro summoning and archetypes that the game became fun for me. Suddenly everyone had a deck to call their own. Everyone played in a different way, the game sped up and suddenly the game felt way more fun. That’s why I personally can never go back to GOAT format or earlier. Decks are way to similar to each other, meaning no individual duelist has their own identity (in what deck they played) and the game was way too slow. Sure the modern game has flaws but all games do.
how do you start yugioh in 2008 and you and your friend group is Tribute summoning Summoning Skull? I don't get it. In my area there's a shop for nerd stuff and the guy buys and sells yugioh cards, so there are boxes full of commons. Most people pick out stuff from 2003 and want them. Oh Curse of Dragons, it's perfect for my deck. LIKE HOW??! How are people still stuck in 2003.. I don't understand.
@@rickerturgen8526 we didn’t have the money to afford new cards so the cards we played with were all borrowed from our siblings/cousins who quit before GX.
@@DJStriker106 I see! that makes a lot of sense.
Ok Boomers played a game with made-up rules using Yugioh cards. Fine, that existed; it simply wasn't Yugioh. They can still do that. But that's not Yugioh.
Idk who’s telling them they can’t meet up with their friends and play how they want.
What we have now was once unique, but now choking on its own niche
I really dont get the point of this comment. What is the objective of this comment where did it even come from? Because to me it looks like Gate Keeping. Grow up
@@Csthh Because they're that friendless person who like to ruins someone who having fun.
"Oh yes I love to watch my opponent combo for 10 minutes and lock me from playing the game" - T. Zoomer
"I love setting 1 and pass that's so interesting and skill based" -Yugi Boomer
Listen you dont have to like Modern Yugioh you are entitled to that. But stop making it everyone else's problem.
The game has changed and its never gonna regress again. Just quit, got to GOAT format, or to speed duels. This is unproductive. You are refusing to adapt and wonder why its not working
@@FrostReave you make it sound like Konami will never change it again, which is ridiculous. The design ebbs and flows every 6-7 years on average. Zoomer today, Boomer tomorrow I promise you.
L@@spicymemes7458
@@spicymemes7458 The largest rule change Konami ever did in 25 years was making it so extra deck monster could only be summoned to where a link arrow pointed at. And guess what they removed those rules because they warped the game too much. And thats nothing compared to limiting special summons
So your promises are pretty worthless to me.
@@FrostReaveThey can still do set 1 and pass with floo. 💀 If you don't like reading justvplay TCG Floo, walking floodgate super easy gameplan.
I think the negative opinion towards net-decking is part of the opinion that deck construction in YGO has become far more homogenized and linear. There is no random combo of cards that produces some out there interactions or obtuse board states, it's just the same engines put together with mechanical precision with the intent of getting the same outcome every single time. The major gripe ties in with that "churn out 50% of the deck" point that OP made.
In another way of looking at it, when Dark World came out, I was very outspoken in my dislike of YGO introducing archetypes into the game, because it created a far more synergistic and insular deck than random pack draws, and would eventually lead to an acceleration of the gameplay that many players would not like. To some of us at the time, when you saw the one card hit the board, the deck would go off, and there was nothing you could do about it, unless you also had an archetype with just as much self-granted consistency. It felt very "adapt or die" and we all felt like we saw the writing on the wall.
eh, means that we have more stories.
"Adapt or die" to a fault
@@strangevol5264 I ran a deck with "Shinato" and "The Supremecy Sun" as my aces. I played the role of the villain of the table at that shop and it was some of the best time I had playing the game. Lots of games were stomps, but then there were those that made it close, and when someone did manage to get that win, there was some honest cheers going around, and it felt like a triumph. Good times...
I mean back in the day the game was more homogenous because every deck was playing 75% of the same good stuff cards. People weren't using random cards or combos, at least not people who are good. And people still pull tech and most good decks aren't entirely in engine. Like most archetypes that are heavily xenophobic are shit because of it. Stuff like Dragon Link that isn't archetypal also still exists and is often good
@@Aaronrules380 Looking at how this conversations playing out in the comments, I think there is a big misconception going on where people are equating the current meta-competitive focus to the rubber band casual play that the boomers are remembering. Yes, the game was a homogenous mess at practically every point in time, but based on testimony, the majority of people who talk about the older days didn't play it like that. And even then, the current game is so functionally different from how it was back then even at the meta level that the difference in experience is very off-putting and in many cases obstructive.
IMO, the only way for Konami to control this power creep is to limit special summons down to 5 (at least until Nibiru will work). It won't save the yugiboomers but it'll at least make the gameless complicated lol.
I am a zoomer myself and currently studying to be a game designer. I can say with 100% certainty that understanding basic game design principles has no correlation with game experience. Ignore luck for a moment, say this was a matter of chess. The person with more chess experience wins, not the one who necessarily understands game mechanics. For example, my game design foundations professor is horrible at chess, but an amazing game designer.
Situations like this boil down to game heuristics, your ability to learn a game by playing it and adjusting (the what went wrong moment).
Furthermore, if someone like Cimo were to play against Kazuki Takahashi, Cimo would win. Does that make Cimo a game designer? No, it just means he has a solid understanding of the game of yugioh. Game design requires skills which are studied and practiced over time. Being a game designer isn’t about coming up with ideas, because anyone can do that. The role of a game designer is to filter the good ones from the bad ones and give them the proper implementation they require.
I enjoy playing yugioh at a casual level but I too recognize there are a lot of problems with the game. I think part of it is power creep, and part of it is the game itself. Yugioh was designed as a manga and anime first and game second, and over time those roles became reversed, resulting in some weird decisions from the designers end, especially very early on (who wants to fusion summon flame swordsman?)
This might be a weird take but I was super excited for rush duel because rebuilding the game from the ground up didn’t seem like a terrible idea.
Unfortunately, Konami has proven that the fault is just as much theirs with powercreep as it is the core concept of the source material.
The best solution to powercreep hell in my honest opinion is a rotating format.
yugiboomer here. I learned yugioh from my local card shop. I played on the playground maybe once or twice when I was 9-10. The rest of my duels were in local tourneys with official rules. Not all of us ate mud and huffed lead paint.
I think part of the net decking thing is that it isn't purely nostolgic ignorance we had on the playground. Creating the wheel is part of the advertised fun of the game but the majority of comp doesn't work that way.
Some great points some awful points. What I want to comment on is net decking because this is deceptively complicated. What he’s referring to is basically the human bots which infest Yugioh. People who only play whatever is high tiered, people who only want to copy decks making next to no adjustments, people who watch guides to tell them how to play and take it as gospel without question
Basically people who want to win without putting in any effort and only care about winning. But does that apply to everyone who net decks? Of course not. Everyone has a starting point. There’s nothing wrong with needing advice as a beginner. So long as you are willing to put effort in after that to get better and not be a mediocre copy of someone else
Lets say you like music and want to learn to play your first instrument. Absolutely no one would expect you to compose your own music when you are learning the instrument. Is exactly the same with deck building. How are you even supposed to learn to build decks if you don't first see what works? Good deck building is hard.
I feel like people who complain about net decking are mostly just mad that their bad decks don't work. If you're copying a strong player's deck verbatim with no modifications, you're blatantly putting yourself at a disadvantage against competent players because you're playing a known quantity. The entire idea behind a "meta" is that people adjust to combat what's currently playing. If a deck that loses to droll and lock bird is everywhere, people will start maining droll and lock. There are tons of examples where a deck that's expected to be good flops an event because everyone completely teched out against it in advance. The idea of a metagame is literally about the idea of gaming the game. Similarly, people playing rogue decks have the advantage of playing something there opponent is less likely to understand at the cost of lower power/consistency/more vulnerability if your opponent does know what you're doing. If you consistently lose to people playing these decks, that means you're bad, because you haven't been able to adjust. This is why most people don't do that verbatim, except when they're new, because it's actively a bad strategy that makes you vulnerable.
counter-perspective on the concept of powercreep: normal monsters were never good. they were just "not bad." and they were honestly only "not bad" for like 2 or 3 years at most. the second they started printing monsters that did anything other than just attack or defend, normal monsters occupied as few decklist slots as possible. maybe the last good normal monster was...gemini elf? for like a minute? just because it was absolutely gigantic? but like honestly if you play goat format itself or even just 2004 chaos yata format, it's like...point to a playable normal monster. show me the playable normal monster. i'll wait
I did in fact played three normal Monsters in my favorite Deck. 3 Mytical Shine Balls, so yeah your kinda right 😂
Winning a game of yugioh doesn’t mean you know the game mechanics, better than someone else, just that you know the game mechanics
Wait, am I the zoomer or the boomer?
zoomer I think idk 🎉
"rituals weren't good in old school Yu-Gi-Oh" So we are just ignoring the fact that relinquished existed? It wasnt even a minus if you used a scapegoat token or sinister serpent as material. Plus manju was light so it fueled chaos. Ypu could also run night assailant so it would get back a flip if tributed for a ritual summon
Insane? Sounds like everyday on the internet
probably (i hope) by netdecking they complain about how people just pure copying the deck instead of changing it a bit to adjust their gameplay
also if TCG make numbering on effect like OCG it would atleast improve card reading situation
Judging from the wording they dont understand the difference between sheep and learning players who netdeck.
My first and only locals win was a 20 person siingle elimination tournament using Monster Reborn + Two-Pronged Attack to get over BEWD
Yes it was on the playground where instead of playing 8000lp (bc we were all 7-10yrs old), we played first with 10 monsters in the grave loses and i will never forget it.
Would be even better today as alternative win condition because you could play around it with even more grave manipulation and banishment mechanics. Super long combo decks would just kill themselves. Ishizu Tear wouldve be banned obv
Okay but we can at least all acknowledge that proficiency at a game isnt a pre-requisite to analyse and critique its design elements. Most developers arent world class players but know much more about competent game design than the game's pros.
TLDR; the community is just toxic
Well here's the thing, the problem about catering to "fun" is that you can't fucking please everybody, and if you try to do so, you run into the risk of pleasing people with the objectively wrong opinions, people who are there to be devil's advocates only for the sake of it, and/or people who have no other intention but to perpetuate the mess.
What people should learn instead is they cannot have everything, and everything is not for them. And if "everything" means Yu-Gi-Oh, then much like every people, scenario, and/or thing in life, you must learn to let it go and move on.
It took me a long time to come around to the modern game.
Turns are too long. Too many games are blow outs.
I am a weird yugi-boomer. I actually think the worst thing to happen isn't hand traps or X summoning method. Instead I think the biggest design mistake in yugioh was making extra deck monster which summon more monsters. Extra deck monsters should be boss monster and not extenders you can access 100% of the time every time.
What this has told me is that Farfa is a Yugiboomer in disguise. Covertly agreeing with the poster's points completely while somehow trying to pass it off as critical.
Yugizoomers will never know the joy of normal summoning Crab Turtle
Maybe your right because I find that unbelievably boring
I don't like the comparison to the scientific study for people complaining about net decking. I understand that's what you hear. And I accept that. I'll speak for myself for why netdecking can be frustrating. Rather than science as a base. I'll use art. If you noticed that tropes in media being reused and redone without doing anything new. You might know someone that gets bored by the whole experience of the movie, game what have you. I also try to keep these feelings to myself at any table.
This is meant to explain how to see things.
I understand for others winning is the goal. But if normally play with your friends and only them as a pass time while catching up. Net decking feels like somebody labbed the hell out of your friend group's casual and it demands everyone else also getting more invested or get stomped. Which can make everyone better of course but not every game do I want a super competitive mindset to enjoy. No shame on those players meant. I have my own hobbies I get really invested in.
A different point.
Enjoying somebody's else ideas is a part of any game to me.
Skill expression in a specific card game has little to no correlation to being able to design and create systems and mehanics that provide fun, interesting and balanced interactions.
OP is conflating inventing the rules of a game with performing at said game after the rules have already been created. This whole argument is a trainwreck 😭
The problem with net-deckers: They're not cooking, they're just looking. I'm not against having an idea of what people are playing and why, but when you see a lot of people running literally the exact 1:1 list of whatever is tiered on masterduelmeta it's incredibly lame. Changing a few cards and experimenting a little is too stressful or something?
the netdecking argument is hilarious. Being able to build a deck from scratch is not a skill that is tested in modern yugioh. Sure you can play on hard mode if you like, but with the sheer availability of singles, it's not like you have to make a decision about what cards to include in your deck based on the cards you own.
What i have learned is that most of the time yugiboomers (or casual elitists) are right that yugioh has lot of flaws and problems from what it used to be and they DID NOT PLAY yugioh the way newer yugioh players do.
They played the playground/table top yugioh, not optimised min max yugioh that even the casuals play these days so yugioh from their childhood was even more casual childish than the casual these days.
And then the modern day yugioh players kind of "attack" or "gatekeep" them because they cant take critisims for modern yugioh of how It is pretty difficult "only one gets to play" kind of game It feels at times.
Being honest my reason for stopping master duel 3 months after release is my personal reading comprehension is really bad.
I was not ready for the part 2 of this whole thing 😂
Also it's really funny that the person screenshotting this started at 41% battery & ended on 29% If that's not proof they read it all then I don't know what is.
So confusing who to believe at first. But they done a duel and stakes are made. So maybe even if the duel was meaningless, the guy who wins was correct. Like those guys says about on an unrelated comparing topic. "What is really true that happened, happens". So you can't say "you can't" because it already happened. They performed it and even if luck was present, it is already done.
The funny part was they fight until they both go to bed. xD Sad thing I didn't see how they duel.TwT
It really sucks because how they both played would have really given us a indicator on what kind of players these are
@@FrostReave Me too, I'm curious on their gameplay. It might give us a hint on their real intentions and if they are serious or just pranking. TwT
That one comment about Rush Dueling being exactly what Yugiboomers should take on couldn't be more accurate
>Konami release a game specifically catered for new players and yugiboomers
>the game is super successful in Japan and Korea
>MFW they don't fucking release the game outside of Japan and Korea
like, everything yugiboomers want in yugioh is there. No 50 million card combos, special summoning is relatively rare (why special when can normal 15 times), trap cards are still good, actually legible card text and most importantly IT'S LITERALLY MADE *FOR* PEOPLE LIKE THEM.
"B-B-BUT I WANNA PWEY WOOGIWO, GOOGOO GAAGAA" It is fucking yugioh but in a coat of paint designed to make you like it jesus h christ.
Not to mention they can actually play a Blue-Eyes/Dark Magician Deck and it'd actually be good.@@thepronoob4039
@@thepronoob4039very slight correction, Special Summoning is actually getting more common, but like, not in a “combo heavy” way.
For instance, Fusion and Maximum centered decks still need to do some Special Summoning, and their deck system is getting more elaborate, but it’s all still very understandable.
More importantly, you can quite literally play anything in the current format. Everything is viable.
Dark Magician, Blue Eyes, Red Eyes, Harpies, Dragon Champion Gaia, Cyber Dragons, there’s a Sea Serpent deck that revolves around Maximum summoning, a Reptile deck that has a strategy centered around milling, other decks from the Rush anime, all of these are viable (and even somewhat competitive, although obviously some decks are stronger). I think Summoned Skull is also getting support. It’s truly one of my favorite things about Rush.
@@memeswithcringe16241; what the fuck is a maximum
2; I have the feeling this is gonna end up like speed duel where they ignore people playing it for simplicity and slowly turn it into a diet version of the base game
@@1stCallipostle A Maximum summon, in simple terms, is a Rush-original mechanic.
You use 3 specific monsters (the “Maximum parts”) from your hand, place them on the field at once and combine them as one monster.
This one monster is somewhat “separate” from the parts, as it has its own ATK (noted as “Maximum ATK” on the card), its own effects (written as “Maximum effects” on the 3 Maximum parts), and has no concept of DEF (think Link monsters). This might sound convoluted, I promise it’s really not if you look at the actual cards.
Maximum oriented decks, for instance, early Cyberse decks, used to be centered around turboing out their boss monster and hoping the opponent has no way to out it, as it had a lot of ATK, typically had an effect that gave it protection, and was high Level, giving it immunity over a lot of cards that target low Level monsters. This later became a really bad strategy as Rush decks became more competent.
Now, Maximum-oriented decks can function even if they fail to get their boss monster. Harpies, for example, can even just summon the Maximum parts instead and switch to Wind Winged-Beast beatdown. They’re also getting better at actually summoning their Maximum boss monsters.
Vanillas became less viable as the game steadily increased in power even before the current era of power creep, that’s how it is in like, most cars games that’s I’ve played, that point is entirely irrelevant, rituals HAVE been bad since near the beginning of the game, needing the ritual spell, the ritual monster, and enough levels to summon said monster has only gotten easier with time. Traps are correct though, sadly they have been outpaced, and honestly I would take the post more seriously if he only said traps. I don’t know why farts spent so much time on that when it’s just the truth of a card games existence, as effect monsters come out with similar stat lines and even just ok effects, vanillas become I obsolete, it happens in magic, optcg, hearthstone, yugioh, legends of runeterra etc
Flip effects effects were good for like… 8 years? Out of yugiohs 25 year history. Aside from a few cropping up in lightsworns and the subterror archetype they’ve always been mediocre. Geminis are also just an inherently flawed and generally pretty shitty mechanic that was practically dated by the time it was released. Sometimes bad ideas are introduced into a game and they’re abandoned for being bad, theres plenty of valid critiques of yugioh and of its power creep but these are all non points
Funnily enough Vanilla's were obsolete damn near immediately. If there's a GOAT format list that topped with a vanilla it'd be news to me.
Just got to the end of that video and yeesh is it cringe, farfa makes such a non point it’s incredible, I’m sure we could find someone who is better than this guy that disagrees with him, and if that guy who is better, wins, that doesn’t effect the overall argument at all. The whole “duel me” thing is so beyond stupid because you can be decent at a game without having correct opinions about it, someone could say, blue is the worst color in magic, and green is the best, beat someone with a blue deck playing green, and that wouldn’t make them correct about their prior assertion, that’s what is stupid about that argument.
@@TheMasterBlazeI’m just trying to be generous to Op, didn’t even get to his unhinged duel me and if I lose I’m wrong segment, and then farfa AGREEING with him had me pulling my hair out
@@Ekatkid I see both side, but niether wanted to concede to the things they were wrong about so they just kept going in circles. I just ignored Farfa because there was no way he was going to form a legit opinion about it while crying laughing.
I'm not against net-decking but I think there are good things that can come from building your own deck, especially if you are starting out yugioh (like how I was from Master Duel).
My process would be to start by looking into interesting archetypes of secret packs, reading all of the archetypal cards, trying to determing what an pure-deck end board would look like, then determine the good and the absolutely useless unplayable archetypal cards, then look for other cards or archetypes that would support the gameplay, etc. Having gone through this for an entire year, only playing in silver and gold rank, I've come to understand much of the game mechanics, having understood missing the timing, overwriting atk/defense, damage step effects, and generally understanding what a good deck would look like. I've also bookmarked non-famous "staple" cards that can be used in say water decks or some cards that support level 4 non-effect monsters, interesting spell and traps (that are never seen in meta decks, but are quite cool), and whatnot which would help with making a deck for an archetype I am unfamiliar with.
Therefore, having gone through this throughout my time with Master Duel, from my perspective, I could SORT of understand why some would say "brain-dead netneckers" and I would definitely get defensive if someone told me that I am wasting my time re-inventing the wheel because that would mean that all of my trial-and-error was an absolute waste, which I don't think it was.
There are clear negatives though such as: realizing only after crafting 3 of a UR card that only 1 is necessary for a optimized deck, finding really synergous cards later on that would have otherwise been found immediately via net-decking, losing a lot in ranked (bruh why are people playing meta decks in silver and gold), forcing one to play in the solo gates until well optimized and the deck routes understood.
Overall, this is an opinion of a new player only playing master duel, having fun as a filthy casual in silver and gold rank having never made a meta deck, who's best deck is pure nordics (which can produce 2 disruptions at the most), spending most of his time in the deck menu (because playing too much ranked would eventually rank me up to platinum since the've removed the ability to rank down in gold :/). I just think that building one's own deck with non-meta wacky archetypes would get newcomers to see and play around with many cards in yugioh, even if they are actually "bad" non-meta cards. Yugioh has so many cards and looking through and trying them out, I think is an acceptable and fun way to play yugioh.
Theres a huge difference between using netdecking as a base or to learn as a new player and a sheep who just wants wins with the least amount of effort possible.
ok the net decking thing does not make sense at all to me
Usually when I "Net Deck" I view various lists and try to use them as references
it's like drawing a picture, You can't draw anything from scratch without first looking at a reference.
It's how you learn the fucking game, babies don't just come out the womb talking, they imitate what they see, then they adapt