Are Rebreathers THAT Dangerous?!
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- Опубликовано: 10 окт 2019
- Are Rebreathers THAT Dangerous?!
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If you were among the first batch of divers in the ’60s and ’70s or if you watch old school scuba diving shows like SeaHunt then you’ll know that there used to be animosity between the two different types of scuba divers; hard hat divers and open circuit divers. Today hard hat divers are limited to commercial divers but there are still two types of divers out there; open circuit and closed circuit. That and the hippie freedivers but we don’t talk about them so we don’t over inflate their egos…
As we all know scuba was invented by Jacques Cousteau and Emile Gagnan in 1943 that changed the world as we know it and allowed people to breathe underwater. But what most don’t know is that rebreathers actually predate open-circuit scuba. A patent application was made in 1878 for a rebreathing device known as the Fleuss rebreather, invented by Henry A Fleuss of Siebe Gorman that recirculated Oxygen and was used in England. A few tweaks and changes over the years but recreational rebreathers, closed especially, weren’t that popular until the ’90s.
Now we’re looking into rebreather failure points so most of this is going to be expectedly negative against rebreathers but remember that there are thousands of rebreather divers out there and many of these faults and potential dangers weren’t fatal thanks to good training, practice and a great mindset on the diver’s part.
So I’m Mark from Simply Scuba and Are Rebreathers THAT Dangerous?!
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Развлечения
it took me entirely too long to realize that beeping sound was repeatedly in the video, and not my washer/dryer end-cycle alarm.
I thought my fridge door was open.
I literally walked out of my bedroom as I was lying down thinking the A/C in the next room was on a timer
I have many years on both OC and CCR. The trouble with OC is It’s noisy, expensive (gas costs in tech diving, my breather paid for itself in gas costs alone!), and so limiting.
He hasn’t mentioned the fact that because fish love you when you dive CCR because you’re big and quiet in the water, so they tend to flock to you. So if you like getting close to fish try a rebreather. The gas you breath is warm and moist so you don’t get out freezing and dying of thirst! I could dive to 60m twice for about £12 quid! Try that on OC??
I’ve dived a JJ for a number of years and it’s absolutely bullet proof. It’s robust, reliable and really simple to use.....and I was never constantly thinking about that dreaded free flow, or how much gas I have left, like I was with my twinset.
I know not everyone is into tech but there are now many recreational semi-closed and ccr’s available.
Yes they’re not cheap and they’re not for everyone, but would I ever go back to OC....tbh I’d rather not dive than have to dive OC! Believe it or not I feel safer on CCR.
So my opinion is if you want to try one just have a go and make your own mind up!
I agree with all your comments except being safer on ccr. Thats just plain silly man. There is no way ccr is safer than oc.
@@alipura146 SILLY?? 😳 How very dare you sir!! 😁👍🏻
@@alipura146 I feel like it depends. The simplicity of oc may lead to complacency in procedure, while the relative complexity of ccr increases the chance of user error. I don't have stats offhand but I'd guess the rate of diving injuries may be close to equal when user population is controlled for as well as the individual dives themselves.
I've only done oc and not many times either, but I wouldn't consider OP's comment silly. From what I understand of rebreathers Is that it requires a good amount of safety precautions to ensure a safe dive, while open is much more tolerant to small errors and mishaps. I don't see oc's tolerance to some negligence to be a positive at all, this is just my opinion though.
I am of this stance primarily because of my piloting experience, it may not apply to diving. I should also say I don't think ether are better really, at the end of the day personal preference and what you find the most comfortable to be the best choice.
@@alipura146 Not silly at all when taking into account how people actually die in the sport of scuba diving. The complexity of a rebreather certainly increases the risk of an equipment malfunction causing a fatality, however, the vast majority of fatalities are a result of insufficient gas (41% according to DAN), while equipment malfunctions only account for 15% of fatalities.
Most of my technical diving experience is in cave diving, and I certainly feel safer knowing that, in the event of a silt out, lost line, entrapment, etc... I have plenty of time to think through the scenario and get myself out of the situation. Not to mention, with the amount of bailout you carry in CCR, you are much more of an asset to assist getting your buddies out of situation in the event something went wrong.
"Rebreathers are quiet when they go wrong." They are quiet when they go right too. When I see cave CCR classes I call them "Ent moots" as they look like they are doing nothing at all.
I think that's asking the wrong question. What you SHOULD ask yourself is this: Do you need one? Because you'll either get it despite the risks or shouldn't even if it was safe.
Rebreathers are for people with a very good income and enough free time to do deep and long technical dives quite regularly, have access to a steady supply of the required parts, chemicals and gases, and/or need the unit to be quiet because they work as underwater photographers. So basically abitious techies or professionals.
If that's you, then you'll probably get one despite the risks the unit may have and just try to mitigate the risks to some extent by being disciplined and well trained.
And if that's not you, then just do yourself a favour and stay on open circuit. Compressed air (and nitrox to some extent) are very affordable. OC is simple, easy, fun, cheap, safe.. there really is little downside to it if you just do normal scuba diving as a hobby. And there is NOTHING wrong with that.
Working on getting my rebreather classes done and eventually rebreather instructor. Would totally use them even after watching this. Proper training and carrying enough bailout gas is a must though.
4 years ago me “I’ll never dive a rebreather too expensive and I don’t need to go deep” here I am now owning an rd1 ccr and I love it more than open circuit diving and I feel safer on my breather than I do open circuit he redundant back up is so much making getting home a non issue
You folks should do a video about how to even get into ccr diving, and what's required of you as a diver. As an open circuit diver, I ain't got a damn clue.
Money, you need a lot of money. :D (A)OWD and nitrox certification basically, then you can take a rebreather course, and before you buy one, you need training for that device. But if you want to use the real advantages of a CCR, you'll need deep dive, decompression dive courses too, maybe trimix.
To get into CCR diving you need experience underwater, You also need to be the person that likes to learn about it and do the things required. If you are someone that just likes to slap a tank on your back and jump in the water and in the end throw your gear in the corner and that is it, then a rebreather is not for you. You have to be strict with the checks and maintenance. It is hard to say which certification you need or how many dives you need to have because that still doesn't quite measure someones level. Because you are dealing with pure oxygen you will need at least more than basic understanding of the dangers that come with it. If you feel like you are ready you should do some tryouts of different machines until you find the rebreather that suits you best.
So. I had 3 yrs open circuit experience when tdi did a demo at Dutch Springs and hidden worlds from. Florida came up with their sf2.. Sometimes people charge for demos, sometimes it costs nothing.. There was no charge for my demo on the scubaforce sf2. I was given like 30.min to an hour instruction, we kitted up and Marissa kept me on her wing and we did a 30.min dive.. I asked about training and i scheduled to come down to Florida and take my course on the sf2.. I didnt yet have the money to buy 1, but james let me use one of his, and he trained me for a week... Afew months later i ordered 1 from him and picked it up while inwas down there doing a cave course with him.... My demo dive on the sf2 was about a yr ago.. Ive logged around 33 hours on the unit and i love it.
If you want to find out about CCR's than people like myself, experienced CCR instructors, are happy to discuss this with you and advise on what may be the best path and solution to move to a CCR.
All major technical training agencies will have instructors across the world so you need to find an instructor near you with a good reputation.
Here's a list of a few of the most well known technical diving training agencies:
PSAI (The agency I am an instructor with)
TDI
IANTD
ANDI
ther agencies include:
RAID (one of the newest agencies)
GUE (limited to only one or two models of rebreathers)
UTD (may be limited to Open Circuit)
@@destroyeriffi6362 based on all the great things I've heard about rebreathers, that 33 hours was like, two dives max 😂
(sarcasm, obviously)
Toured a dive chamber with my club a while back, when I was interested in going the rebreather route, and mentioned it to the doctor giving the tour. He just flat out said, "We never see rebreather divers in here. Absolutely never. The kit either takes care of you and you don't get bent, or you die. There really is no middle ground."
I'm sure the actual instances of injury is exceedingly low and I have also known, unfortunately, open circuit divers that have died. Including one that just stepped into a hole walking in the surf after the dive and didn't have their regulator in their mouth. However, his statement made me think about the, very real, risks involved with gear malfunction or improper maintenance and decide if I really want to go down that road. I've known a few divers that had to take a chamber ride, I'm glad that was an option for them.
Ccr is in my future. Doing cold water tech dives and looking at trimix, a Ccr is the only way to make it affordable plus all the other benefits.
I will stick with my open circuit thanks mate.
haha
@bitterman co Just stop breathing so much ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
bitterman co Grab a steel 100 mate and take the tank boot off by sliding it off. If it’s a tight version, I believe you can loosen/mould it by leaving it In hot water. I use a steel 125 and the tank boot slides off. I put on my tank/bcd then I bent slightly and twist it while pulling it down and it slips right off. The tank boot itself caused a decent amount of drag. By going steel you can automatically take 3 pounds of your belt when compared to aluminium. Then take a further 3 pounds off which will leave you underweight but shouldn’t be a problem on deep 10m + dives. I always dive 3 to 4 pounds underweight and I love it! It’s not a problem at all for deep dives even at the end doing a 5m safety stop because the suit has become so compressed after a long 20m 70 minute dive, however shallow shore diving under 10m at around 800psi, I struggle a little to stay down. Streamline your gear by using a shorter 60cm hose, wing bcd. Keep everything tidy etc. Automatically you’ll turn a Steel 100 into a Steel 110 easily because of dropping 6 pounds of lead, tank boot and streamlining. Good Luck.
@@extremisttotheextremeantid7554 Huh? Tank boot?
I use a closed circuit re-breather for rescue on underground gold mines and have never had a problem but then again i have all the test gear, spare parts and training to make sure nothing goes pear shaped for my team. I can't imagine things are much different when someone is maintaining their own gear, if anything i think they'd be even more fastidious!
ROFL we won't talk about free divers to overinflate their ego.
Poseidon se7en has solid state O2 sensors.
Do you have some reference, where can one get one? Because it seems like an unobtanium since announce... First time I heard about them years ago at Techmeeting in Bratislava from Arne Sieber. I suppose, he sold the technology to Posseidon, who made some big marketing boo boo boo, and then? Then silence...
@@riskototh poseidon.com/products/computers/solid-state-sensor
Don't know if they sell them separate.
It'll be nice when they work reliably and are then made available for all makes & models of CCR, until then I'll stick with tried & tested galvanic oxygen cells.
They are also super expensive and require factory calibration on a regular interval. Unfortunately we're stuck with galvanic sensors for now. They're more PITA, but they're cheap and they work.
In Britain in the 1960's the sport diving organizations attitude to rebreathers was "Here Be Dragons, keep away" and they ordered their divers to never use them.
If you don't service your car on schedule or you have the attention span of a fly then rebreathers are not for you. You have to maintain it like a sophisticated race car and watch and understand what your gauges are telling you.
If you like to keep your kit serviced and can task load several things at a time then rebreathers offer you many ways to get out of bad situations that would kill an open circuit technical or cave diver. Examples:
If I lose all my O2 for whatever reason, I could use my rebreather as a gas extender (semi-closed circuit like) to make my back gas (diluent) and bailout tank last much longer so that I can get back to the surface while paying any deco debt.
If my diluent HP line ruptures, I can surface using only my O2 because my diluent would only be needed if I went deeper and the diluent in my loop would expand as I ascend.
If all my monitoring electronics goes out, my unit will maintain the last setpoint as I make my way to the surface. I would listen for any change in my solenoid firing pattern and if it changes then I would switch to Semi-closed rebreather mode using my diluent and bailout gas.
If all else fails, I have a bailout tank that will allow me to come off the loop and make it to the surface while paying any deco debt.
Rebreathers give you time and time gives you options. That can not be said for when something goes wrong on open circuit unless you follow a redundant and independent systems philosophy (which many do not).
If you are a competent person with a good attention span and are properly trained by a qualified rebreather instructor and are not doing something that is beyond your ability and training/ experience level then diving a rebreather is not much more dangerous than a car ride on the autobahn in my opinion. On the other hand, there are people that manage to get themselves killed by drink machines each year. Darwin's rules still apply.
I would absolutely love to try a rebreather, only then would I decide to switch or not
I dive a rebreather (optima/2 kiss versions) and I truly believe that an entire redundant rebreather kit(to include bailout) tailored to the situation is on many cases just as safe, if not safer, than an open circuit rig tailored to the same situation(Not always though).
100%
Put it this way. (From a rebreather diver). Everest is dangerous but many people mountaineer without injury. Open circuit diving to rebreathers are as backpack hiking is to mountaineering.
Hippy Free Divers ha ha haven’t heard that before but ain’t that the Truth 🤣
Honestly tho xD was kinda hurt but then I realized he's right
The reason normal scuba does not fail so much is not due to development but because it is way simpler and does not have nearly as many dangerous failure modes. No electronics, no dangerous chemicals, no batteries, less than a quarter as many pressure joints, seals, valves etc.
I have had a second stage scuba diaphragm fail on me at ~25 metres and I could still get air (+ a mouthful of water). Same when an O-ring blew at depth. It looked dramaitic, but wasn't really that dangerous.
Like most things in life, it is way better to stick with simple things when you can and only use complicated stuff if you really have to.
The things you mention as not being bad are only not bad because you were doing a recreational NDL dive. If you had these failures at serious depths with deco obligations it would be equally dangerous. You'd have to switch to your travel/stage/decompression gas quickly, depending on depth. That's what rebreather divers do, they bailout to OC. So just because they're on CCR... OC is always with them.
I'm a UK based CCR instructor and, especially with the shortage and cost of Helium, I don't believe that there is much of a future for open circuit trimix diving.
If a diver plans on regularly diving beyond safe air/ nitrox depths, then a CCR is the best solution.
However, the safe use of a CCR depends on many factors, including costs, commitment, competence, ability and resources.
For many divers a CCR is the best underwater SCUBA equipment, but it takes a significantly higher level of knowledge, resources and attention to make it safe.
A well prepared CCR and diver will be far safer than on open circuit
, especially diving in greater depths
Conversely, a badly prepared and maintained CCR and a badly prepared and trained diver will be far less safe than on open circuit SCUBA.
There are divers who may have all the money and space required to buy and be trained on a CCR who should never use one, and I am sometimes forced to advise them of this and refrain from training them. I would rather do this than have their safety on my conscience.
There'll always be Luddites when there is new technology around. There were even divers who swore that BCDs were dangerous becuase they might accidentally inflate. And remember dive computers - many divers said "no, I don't trust my safety to some electronics I strap to my wrist and stuck to their tables (remember them?). Sound familiar?
I really fancy a rebreather - my wife is not keen though - what is the best rebreather cost wise?
N.B. I’m not looking for the cheapest (necessarily) but the best value and be able to safely dive to 80-100m. The Se7en looks very nice for example but I wonder it’s great value or not.... is it the Apple of the phone world and is there an Android out there that does just as much or more for 70% of the cost?
Depending where you live, I love my KISS units.
Maybe a Sidewinder? Simple and reliable because few electronics (it's a manual controlled CCR) and double scrubber design. Streamlined (designed to complement sidemount setup) and not too expensive. It's used by many well-known cave divers for those reasons.
The Poseidon is the rebreather your mum would choose for you, the nag factor when diving them is absolutley insane. If you want a robust no-bullshit unit that will go to 100m out of the box, have a look at the JJ-CCR.
All depends what you're looking for. I dive an sf2 and love it. Price point is about 10k.
Megs are good, theyre expensive, maybe alittle more than my sf2, inhear awesome things about the jjccr, sub gravitys xccr, and then if you like the idea of you being in control and not a computer, then the kiss rebreathers are very good, and less expensive.. 5k ish
Or take a used AP Inspiration for 2k from eBay, put some maintenance in and take a course... I don't understand, why people are keen to flush so much for CCR... I bought old AP for 1k, put another 0.2k to maintenance and 0.8k for different electronics - now it's like a JJ :D Another one, rEvo hCCR, I bought for 999 euros, with Shearwater electronics... Invested about 100 euro for recabling and about 150 for rEvodream, and another perfect machine :D So no, it does not need to be so awfully expensive.
Is decompression sickness still a thing in rebreather?
Yes
Didn’t learn a thing about these, PADI certified
I would love to try a rebreather but I cant afford them. From what I have researched dont shortcut your maintenance and you will be fine
The first all natural rebreather
DAMN IT I spent 10 minutes walking around my house trying to find the source of that beep. I
You forgot to mention commander buster crab. Who also invented scuba and rebreathers in 1941 in Gibraltar. Also Italian navy used two man chariots and as you correctly say Jacques Cousteau of the French navy.
Electronics and water don't work. The rebreathers I used were non electronic like you see in ww2 movies of the 1950's.
If you don't get the Cristal's right or scrubbers you are a dead man.
Hope it helps.
its not rebreathers that are dangerous its the dives you can do with rebreathers my ccr is my baby best thing i ever done
i dont exactly how they work but if you breathe faster than normal are you just gonna pass out
Sure I would like to dive rebreather but the price and service costs are just so damn high. Like the O2 sensors which needs to be changed most times each year ...
As long as you get the proper training and have the right mind set I believe rebreathers are more safe. Pretty sure all of the Kiss rebreathers have 3 o2 sencers. If you're not a detail oriented kind of person maybe not for you. Someday I hope to get a Kiss sidewinder.
There are very limited circumstances in which a rebreather is more safe. KISS actually has the most limited usecase, but is incredibly popular with certain online personalities. It shouldn't be anyone's first rebreather. Lastly, they all have at least 3 O2 sensors. Some have as many as 5 or 6. More isn't always better.
I've watched a number of diving related videos that have some version of "Is SCUBA, [or Tech Diving, or Rebreathers] THAT Dangerous?" I think if you have to continually ask that question in relation to diving topics, the answer is yes, taken as a whole, diving and many subcategories of it, is THAT dangerous. Let's stop pretending otherwise and stare into the jaws of death and laugh. And check our regulators.
*beeeeeep*
Are you certified to use a rebreather? EVERY point you made stinks of someone who has only over read forums.
Edit: Are the makers of this video certified to use a rebreather because the points made would indicate that they do not have sufficient experience to make any of these points
I served in the Royal Navy doing mineclearance diving. I held navy certifications not recreational ones like PADI. So I guess I am certified.
I'll never get a rebreather
You referenced "Hard Hat SCUBA divers" I may be wrong but since SCUBA stands for Self Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus a Hard Hat diver does not have a SCUBA set on to dive. His Breathing Apparatus is surface controlled. Sorry if it sounds nitpicking but there IS a difference and if you are going to teach young divers you need to make sure you teach them correctly.
AP VALVES BUDDY REBREATHERS Averaged 20 deaths a year between 1998 and 2008 with 24 deaths in 2005 . alarming compared to scuba gear ..
Ooooh digs at us free divers hahahaha
Explore IOM was thinking the same ^^
If you're waiting for an apology, don't hold your breath.
What happened when you puked in a full face re breather?
it will get trapped in the counterlung and can be dumped out will not end up running the hole loop
I'm more of a snorkeling type of guy myself.
They don’t call them the ‘box of death’ for nothing
That's only the yellow one, stay away from yellow.... Hahaha
Hard to trust one after caustic cocktail
What was the cause? What was the unit?
Poseidon 7. It had holes in between the neoprene and loop. The loop was found to leak.
That sounds like a terrible design... I dive an sf2. Its pretty flood tolerant
SCUBA wasn't invented by Cousteu and Gagnan! They improved and copied existing equipment. Then patented that system.
Wow! So much ignorance crammed into just 7 minutes.
Why do you keep winking at me???
A safety critical system that locks up, freezes, needs rebooting...?!?!?!?!
Uh, NO. That should not be on the market. If it's true and the manufacturer knows about this, they are NEGLIGENT and will likely wind up in prison.
Don't buy equipment like that!
they are safe its the people that use them thats the problem you need to respect every dive
Can I just tape a garden hose to the side of a boat and throw on a weight belt and a mask....? Boom! Unlimited bottom time.....
Yup that works too, just toss out nitrogen narcosis out the window 🤣
@@J__Mitchell what is this nitrogen necrosis you speak of....?
@@airborne1ranger24 sorry I wrote that at 3am, I meant to say Decompression sickness (DCS) not nitrogen narcosis, but DCS is a condition arising from dissolved gases coming out of solution into bubbles inside the body on depressurisation. DCS most commonly refers to problems arising from the ascent (Wikipedia). NG is basically like drugs underwater from all the nitrogen the body takes in (happens at around 30+)
@@J__Mitchell wait, are u saying people get high when scuba diving....?!!!?? No wonder so many people do it....I thought it was just to get a closer look at marine life.....
@@airborne1ranger24 ahhahahaah ya, but it only happens at a deep level though, most people just dive around 5 to 25 meters. Any deeper than 30 meter we use a mix of gasses to reduce the nitrogen intake. It also varies from person to person
These staff is for rich cave divers.
Unfortunately this video has a few factual inconsistencies and is far too simple.
It's meant for a generic OW audience who dive a few times a year on vacation. But I agree with you... just clickbaity content for the algorithm ;)
No. And I don't like the title of your post suggesting that Rebreathers are THAT dangerous.
No! You are right, they are not more dangerous. Only the humans on CCR are more dangerous to themself... You have much more time to solve problem in 50 meters under water on CCR, than on OC... Decrease of ppO2 from 1.2 to 0.15 in that depth can take about 10 minutes with stuck solenoid or other failure, where a freeflow in that depth on OC can be life threatening in couple of seconds...
@@riskototh just going to play devil's advocate... and if the solenoid gets stuck open, constantly pumping o2 into your loop? ;) The point is that when you're on CCR your OC equipment is right there with you as well. If in doubt, bailout.
Whutt !!! i am a freediver. thumb down for you .
There's no such thing a FREE diving. It all costs money
peter, found your panties at the bottom of the ocean, they were knotted up in a ball xD
Apparently freedivers have no sense of humor either....
Hippie dippie freedivers? We don´t inflate their egos? What the hell is YOUR problem dude?
Apparently you... xD