Surely it's the radiating area of the drivers that's important, not the individual number of drivers. I don't have the exact specs, but each tweeter and midrange driver in the 30.7 is several feet long, and is really more of a line source that the rows of little individual drivers in the IRS. I expect that the radiating area of the single 30.7 tweeter and midrange ribbons is greater than the combined area of the little IRS drivers. On the IRS, there is a significant gap between the top of one driver's radiating area, and the bottom of the driver above, making more like a row of individual point sources than a true line source. One area where I'm sure the IRS can move more air is in the bass. With monopole infinite baffle woofer cones rather than the 30.7's dipole ribbon bass.
gotham61,I agree with you about the surface area but also excusion is also a factor.The Apogee full range has treble and midrange ribbons about 6ft long xhalf inch and 2inches wide respectively with much greater excursion capability than the planar drivers of the IRS.The rated max loudness is 118db.hardly undynamic.
And the trade of is total moving mass, and resonance. Lots of smaller ribbons will be easier to control, and get better dynamics with a much higher resonant frequency. all that said, I think the ribbons in the IRS V's are folded, so they have way more surface area than the appear.
I was going to write almost the exact same reply. You hit the nail on the head, you have to compare radiating areas, not numbers of drivers! Paul! Another area that matters is the specific driver construction. If you look at the info Eminent Technology publishes on their LFT-VIII & other LFT-line speakers, they invented a technique that allows their planar drivers to work both more linearly & maintain that linearity into higher excursions. I believe (correct me if wrong) that Magnepan uses, perhaps licensed that technology for the 20 & 30 lines. That was never implemented on any of the IRS drivers. Also, having owned a pair of MG-IIIAs many moons ago, I have only heard one tweeter that was better within it's range, the fabled plasma tweeter. Of the few times I heard the IRS (including at one Chicago CES in the 1980s in PS Audio's room during the time I had the MG-IIIAs), I never heard their tweeters compare to the Magnepan ribbon. Another factor is physical construction. The IRSs are built heroically. None of the Maggie's I've owned or heard compare, but I've not seen the MG-30.7 nor read a detailed description. Physical construction will also influence dynamics & I suspect the IRS wins here. There are many factors to consider. I am sure the MG-30.7 don't come close to the current PS Audio IRS speakers in Bass power, extension, & dynamics, especially given the new drivers PS installed. Definition within range may be another story. But in the mids-highs, the MG-30.7 have the potential to compete head-to-head with the IRS in definition & dynamics & maybe exceed. Depending. Curious to hear takes on this from those who have heard both. Greg in Mississippi
I have been a huge Maggie fan for years. My first serious speakers were MG1Cs. I heard the MG30.7 when it was on display at my local Magneplanar dealer, Audio Dimensions in Royal Oak, MI (Detroit Suburb). I was amazed at their ability to produce a realistic image of a grand piano even driven by the Audio Research Reference 6 preamp and great sounding if not super powerful Reference 75SE amp. I also heard them in Evanston, IL at the time of Axpona driven by a big Boulder amp. They are by far the best Magneplanar I have ever heard. That being said, I doubt that given a full orchestra recording they could compare to the powerful bass dynamics that the IRS V are famous for. I think I heard the IRS V at a Stereophile show in NYC in the late 80s, but the details are lost to time and memory. i would be interested to hear a shootout between the IRS V and the Magneplanar 30.7 combined with the Open Baffle Subwoofer towers from GR Research.
When you start adding tweeters interference becomes a problem. It is all to do with the wavelength of the sound and distance between the drivers. If it is a properly designed phase array, it is possible but you as listener must be in an exact spot.
Visited this February and can confirm they are amazing. Surprisingly moderate in volume even when pushed a bit. Also cant wait for the PS audio speakers, will be buying!
I've heard both the Maggie 30.7 and Infinity IRSV. I thought the 30.7 were not optimally set up and I could hear they were being fed dirty power and highs limited by the stock tweeter jumpers. On the other hand, the IRSV had an audible buzz emanating from the subwoofers. While both systems sounded good, I walked away seeing the diminishing returns of spending $$$$ on an audio system. It made me really appreciate the system I have since I felt neither system embarrassed mine. Sure they had more power and bass but I like detail, tone, texture, soundstage depth and width which my system can provide.
Well Sir, I´m not so sure about it as you are. The Magnepans have MASSIVE high-midrange panels, which are easely 2m (6,6 ft) high! The resulting diaphragm-surface is HUGE! I´ve not calculated it, but I bet the surface is much larger as the 36 drivers in one IRSV. If you would have been argumented with the bass-drivers, I would agree, although I´m not sure if the surface of the Maggie bass-panels isn´t sigificant larger too. So I would bet that the dynamics of the Maggie 30.7 are pretty much awesome!
Hey Paul, yes I have heard the 30.7s and they are a large step forward from my 20.7s. More dynamic and effortless, but requires even more breathing room. I highly doubt they would come close to the IRS V. I’ve listened to the IRS Betas in the past. Stunning speakers and they would dynamically surpass the 30.7s too. That is Maggie’s greatest weakness, outright dynamics. Cheers
I went from Infinity RS1 B's to Maggie 3.6R's after 30 seconds of hearing them. BUT..the IRSV's are mind blowing. I was very fortunate to walk into Lyric hi-fi in NYC the day after Arnie himself set the V system up with a Levinson Ml-1 pre and ML-2 Mono-blocks driving the ribbon panels and holy shit, I had the audio experience of my lifetime for close to an hour. Still love my Maggies though decades later. They are addicting. The top of the line MBL system really excites my senses and probably always will. Would love to get the chance to compare those two systems. They are both spectacular and there are a lot of new and very expensive systems that I have not heard but I get the sense that they are spectacular as well.
If the omni directional MBL's excite check out the TLS-1 by HHR Exotics (a vastly improved version of the Ohm Walsh F) does not need a crossover (so no crossover distortion or phase issues) is time aligned with all sound emanating from 1 driver not 3 ,like MBL's .forum.audiogon.com/discussions/walsh-style-tls-1-by-hhr-exotics-ohm-f-style ,Their site www.hhr-exoticspeakers.com/
Horns do this with one compression driver. The acoustical impedance matching allows the compression driver to move very little and yet produce a lot of sound.
You always say that regardless of the specs or the numbers or the measurements, the key is to listen and let that guide your judgement. Yet, without ever having heard the other system, you dismiss it out of hand as inferior.
What about transient response? When 36 tweeters get hit with a rising edge I'm expected to believe they move in unison? Then, there's the wavelength consideration (read: phase) of the geometries and distances of those radiators when the sound wavelength at 10 kHz is 1.3 inch (or so, and less as frequency goes up). Do they sound closer to the "truth" or closer to what a given individual likes?
The 30.7 are the best speakers I have ever heard. Have not heard the IRSV. But there is a lot to consider besides dynamics. I wouldnt hesitate to purchase the 30.7 if I had the funds. Happy listening!!!
Saludos, son dos conceptos totalmente distintos, e igualmente válidos, cada uno tiene sus virtudes y sus falencias, y cada uno destaca en cualidades sonoras muy particulares, INFINITY IRS-V, genial, MAGNEPAN 30.7, genial, la idea es tener ambos, se encuentra uno en el Nirvana del sonido, con suprema calidad, abrazos
I've heard the Magnepan 30.7's! And they're wonderful. But I've not heard the Infinity IRS for comparison, so my commentary isn't likely very relevant. But I suspect Paul is right - the IRS has the dynamic capability of no other speaker I'm aware of. I can remember as a young teenager in the mid-80's when I first learned of the IRS V's, and how magical that speaker seemed in an Infinity print ad. Someday I'll make the pilgrimmage to PS Audio (post pandemic) to hear that speaker.
Thanks Paul. Is it really the number of drivers or is it the combination of the surface area of the radiator/s in a given band and it's/their excursion of which dynamic range is a function? Thanks!
I have the Martin Logan Neolith, Magnepan LRS+, Kii Three's, and Magnepan 3.7i (among Focal and other monitors) and have had and compared to the current ones that I still have in my studios, the Dragon Fire and Infinity IRS V5's. The IRS's are being sold in favor of the Dragon Fire's, but that is NOT a fair comparison (over $800K), and only are going because of studio cubic feet constraints that make the IRS speakers less than they could be.. Each obviously has their strengths and trade-offs, and obviously some of them are very critical in terms of what amplification you pair them with. As great dynamic plus imaging combos the IRS are amazing. However, most people including me, found the ML Neolith's superior in terms of feeling deeply a part of a beautiful large high dynamic sound stage. However, there are about 15 other criteria that all of these could be compared on. The LRS's when combined with the right amplification and subwoofers actually sound better to many (for about $7-10K including amps, subs and all) than the Infinity and the Dragon Fire. However, if you could effectively remove one or more walls, or use the IRS in a large, non-modal challenged environment, there is nothing like them. However, even in 14' high asymmetric treated rooms of more than 10,000 cubic feet, the IRS's room interactions significantly diminish their potential. I am fairly sure though that in a room of at least 60' x 35' x 14' with the right treatment, the IRS would be a "bargain" alternative to the Dragon Fire and would best almost anything else. However, in rooms of 12' or lower ceilings and less than 10K cubic feet, the IRS or other Maggies or Martin Logans may work better for many.
Doesn’t the Magnepan 30.7 have more total radiating area on both high and low frequencies than the Infinity IRS? I know that some use dipole subs with others in the Magnepan line, but not sure if the 30.7 need them or not.
Paul counts drivers but ignores the surface area of the drivers. For proper perspective, the IRSV system has less than 1/5 the actual radiating area of the Magnepans. Hmm...
I agree that Maggies are amazing, and of course the IRSV must be spectacular. But... there must be something that they put in the water in Colorado that there are so many incredible hifi manufacturers in one place !!! The counterpoint is radiating area (as per some comments below :) ). The Soundlab Majestic 945's electrostatic speakers, that I own, are also designed and manufactured in Colorado. Each speaker has a radiating area of 3125 sq inches !!! That is quite a bit more than any line source of ribbon tweeter/midrange can. And they can go down to 25Hz with slam ! Possibly not like 2 x towers of servo-woofers, but damn fine anyway. All are great speakers :) And by the way, I also own, and love, some Heil Amt1 speakers which are a folded ribbon tweeter - less area but still incredible dynamics. Love your videos !!!
Love Magneplaner's (had MGIIs in the late 70s which I modified to make them better) and I had the chance to hear the larger Infinity IRSVs at Arinie Nudles place in Vail. The bass and dynamics blew me away. That led me down the rabbit hole to my current speaker system I designed to get the dynamics and incredible resolution of the large Infinity systems. Since I built it, it is at a fraction of the price of anything comparable. Love the experience and honesty of your blogs/RUclips posts.
So many sound waves from so many drivers including some rear-firing ones with different phase hitting our ear drums make the sound appear more live but not actually as it sounded in the studio when being mastered with studio monitors.
If surface area is equivalent, then 36 small drivers vs. 1 large driver can still move the same amount of air. It's been awhile since I owned Maggies and I don't know if they've updated the motor aspect of their bass panels from the original wire glued to film and ceramic bar magnets. So there may be some difference in dynamics down low from some more modern design with neodymium magnets and better conductors. But the EMIT tweeter is basically a miniature Magnapan, or more exactly a miniature Appogee ribbon conductor on film diaphragm. So given equivalent motor area and radiating surface (note that the IRS is broken up into multiple separate sections with gaps in between whereas the Maggie is the entire vertical area of the panel) Something else has to be different. BTW, did you ever hear Tympani 4s? I heard a set tri-amped with ML-2 amps back in the day that had dynamics galore.
There is no doubt the magies excel in the critical midrange and sound staging. But in terms of the bass and sheer dynamics, there is NO contest. I listened to them with the Rel Subs, which are quite fast, with top tier VTS amps and it was excellent. But maybe I'm biased, but I found my Salon2's with the Krell 402 to excel the system with the dynamic slam. Both systems have their advantages and I would say it depends on your listening tastes.
Taking a step back, there are limitations to speakers drivers in a sealed/ported box. This is why many love dipoles e.g. Maggies, omnidirectionals, wide dispersion and open baffles. Oh and bipoles like old mirages.
Hey Paul....did you replace the diaphragms of the mids and tweeters in your IRSV's? Just wondering as I know you rebuilt the woofers. I have a pair of QLS 1's and curious. Obviously I have dome mids in my QLS 1's, although do have the same tweeters and it seems to me the highs aren't as clear and bright as they once were, and this is after completely rebuilding the crossovers and replacing all wiring.
😂 if you haven’t heard it Maggie’s 30s what the points? To make an opinion Paul I have heard the Maggie’s and the infinity for years even when harry Pearson was alive( absolute sound) or peter aczel from international review Maggie’s 30 sounds incredible accurate in comparison with your infinity by the way parts is scarce I am not into a Frankenstein experiment With the emit Maggie’s sounds precisely what I heard in the recording studio (I am recording Eng ) mixdown very close to the source not a battles of emit And a xover nightmare Of the infinity keep it simple Is the way to go not a milkshake of driver that would drive you insane Paul please withhold your opinion if you haven’t heard the speakers don’t coment
Personally, being a fan and owner of the latest design in Martin Logan electrostats, I would LOVE to hear the IRS-V alongside the Martin Logan flagship Neolith ! HUGE Estat panels and bass modules with a 12" and 15" in each ! I think Paul is a little behind hearing the latest generations from both Mag and ML . Surely the IRS-V can be rivaled in some ways, but then again, even the new PS Audio speaker line seems to be 'stalled' for some reason or another...hmmmmm (O;
Apple's and oranges. The question we need to ask: Which speakers are over-priced, over-hyped, and over-sized antiques... And which are the latest carefully developed pinnacle of sound reproduction? Hmmm...
What the difference? $50,000, 1400 pounds and requires a very large room and a huge amount of $$$ for equipment to support them. How many are they going to sell? So your chances of ever enjoying them is miniscule.
Both speakers have their virtues - although there are a few similarities, some pointed out by Paul, the two design philosophies are obviously completely different - - I have spent time with the 30.7's and although I've never heard the IRS's, there's no doubt that the two speakers offer completely different perspectives - - all of the maggies have improved greatly regarding dynamics in the last 5 years or so, but I agree with Paul that the IRS's would easily win that "gun fight" - - the remaining differences are certainly a matter of taste - - - one thing that Paul didn't mention is the vast difference in price, and even though the IRS's have been out of production for years and years - even comparing the two designs using the IRS's original price without regard to inflation puts the Magnepans in a very desirable camp. By the way, I personally would love to own either, especially the "hopped up" version of the IRS's that Paul has - but I'd never look back if I had a space in my house that could accommodate the 30.7's, they are truly awesome.
Paul, Doesn't dynamics also have to do with sensitivity? hence if a speaker is 6db more sensitive for a given watt wouldn't also be more dynamic? i understand Maggies are not that sensitive and also hard to drive.
IRS V's are you still using the original diaphragms in the tweeters and mids? If not where did you get them (being the guy on eBay just started selling them last winter).
The red outlet is reserved for any equipment manufactured in the People's Republic of China (the Sprout is manufactured overseas, isn't it?). Hah, no idea actually. I hope to visit the mountains again when things return to a reasonable semblance of the old normal and maybe drop by PS Audio. Last time I put boots (well, sneakers) on the ground at the grand and glorious results of the Laramide orogeny was on our honeymoon in 1988 (views from the Denver Airport and flyovers a couple of times are nice, but don't really count). Should such a thing come to fruition, I'll ask.
Huh, it is a hospital grade. So basically a 20 amp outlet that can handle an ass whooping. Seems usless for a listening room but at least i know why its red.
I heard them back in the 90's The song was Roger Miller's King of the road It was unbelievable! Another song to test your speaker mid range, check out Roger Miller's, Little green Apples Didn't the RS5's cost $40k???
$58,000 is what Paul has said he paid for them. then had the woofers, and servos rebuilt, and the mids and tweeters rewired and crossover rebuilt. so there is a chunk of money sitting in that room.
No they cannot and I am more than qualified to say it as I play with a tympani I (6ft tall 3 panels per side ) it's not a 30.7 but it's as close as.you can get within the realm of budget. The only way to get close, is to add subwoofers to get dynamic range. It's the achilles heel of magnepans. My rs1b (cousin of the irs v) posses way more dynamic range. But that doesn't mean my maggie is subpar , it's hard to compare speakers such as the irs series or even the rs1b (7x8inch woofer towers) to any "normal " speaker . It's a wall of dynamic galore you get out of them However paul once again showed his ignorance a little . As arnie nudell ALWAYS HATED using smaller drivers as they create lobing and issues. The surface area of all those emits combined are barely exceeding that of a tympani or 30.7 ... It's the low end where the irs v will be king at. Mid range ? Not so much you're talking about in my case 2x6 foot panels of mostly driver for the mid low sections. Way more surface area and way less complicated crossover requirement. Than the irs v (and yes I got friends that own a irs v not new to the speakers like most here) As much as I adore nudells work, and as much as respect all his designs (I have a big collection of them) It's defeatable .... The irs v is not a speaker that's the only speaker on earth that can sound the way it does. It's over 40 years old, there are clearly speakers out there now . That can match it (wilson watts) is one of them , the 30.7 won in 2017 the best overall speaker award alongside wilson's (costing by a factor of 4 more than the maggie ) They have nothing to prove
the magneplanar is not full range, that makes it not a complete sounding hifi system. so IRSV wins on that point alone. full range is a big deal and should be the first you want to achieve in a system.
Dynamics is just 1 part of the puzzle . The most important part being directivity , and constant directivity being the goal . There is no chance in hell that those wide wings can ever get to anything remotely being worth called "constant directivity"
I used to believe that bass was non-directional. Then I sat in that room and learned the truth. These have by far the best sound stage and imaging of anything I have ever heard.
So you are the guy who owns the IRS? LOL The magnapans probably only costs like 200 bucks to produce. But this must be like at least 15k to produce is my guess. I heard Magnapans before, fine for the price, but no where near a IRSV that runs with a standard filter. Pauls I believe, is an improved version as far as I can understand.
I can't comment about which is better and which isn't. However I do think the premise of the argument is flawed. The argument paul puts forward is valid for dynamic drivers because dynamic drivers do not scale linearly. In other words, 2 4 inch woofers does not equal a single 8 inch woofer. Planar drivers do actually scale somewhat linearly. IF THE DRIVERS ARE THEORETICALLY PERFECT (key phrase right there), then there is no difference from having 50 tweeter panels in a row vs having a single panel that is 50 tweeter panels long.
Surely it's the radiating area of the drivers that's important, not the individual number of drivers. I don't have the exact specs, but each tweeter and midrange driver in the 30.7 is several feet long, and is really more of a line source that the rows of little individual drivers in the IRS. I expect that the radiating area of the single 30.7 tweeter and midrange ribbons is greater than the combined area of the little IRS drivers. On the IRS, there is a significant gap between the top of one driver's radiating area, and the bottom of the driver above, making more like a row of individual point sources than a true line source.
One area where I'm sure the IRS can move more air is in the bass. With monopole infinite baffle woofer cones rather than the 30.7's dipole ribbon bass.
exactly, you are absolutely right
gotham61,I agree with you about the surface area but also excusion is also a factor.The Apogee full range has treble and midrange ribbons about 6ft long xhalf inch and 2inches wide respectively with much greater excursion capability than the planar drivers of the IRS.The rated max loudness is 118db.hardly undynamic.
And the trade of is total moving mass, and resonance.
Lots of smaller ribbons will be easier to control, and get better dynamics with a much higher resonant frequency.
all that said, I think the ribbons in the IRS V's are folded, so they have way more surface area than the appear.
Half of what you said is correct and half not so much.
I was going to write almost the exact same reply. You hit the nail on the head, you have to compare radiating areas, not numbers of drivers! Paul!
Another area that matters is the specific driver construction. If you look at the info Eminent Technology publishes on their LFT-VIII & other LFT-line speakers, they invented a technique that allows their planar drivers to work both more linearly & maintain that linearity into higher excursions. I believe (correct me if wrong) that Magnepan uses, perhaps licensed that technology for the 20 & 30 lines. That was never implemented on any of the IRS drivers.
Also, having owned a pair of MG-IIIAs many moons ago, I have only heard one tweeter that was better within it's range, the fabled plasma tweeter. Of the few times I heard the IRS (including at one Chicago CES in the 1980s in PS Audio's room during the time I had the MG-IIIAs), I never heard their tweeters compare to the Magnepan ribbon.
Another factor is physical construction. The IRSs are built heroically. None of the Maggie's I've owned or heard compare, but I've not seen the MG-30.7 nor read a detailed description. Physical construction will also influence dynamics & I suspect the IRS wins here.
There are many factors to consider. I am sure the MG-30.7 don't come close to the current PS Audio IRS speakers in Bass power, extension, & dynamics, especially given the new drivers PS installed. Definition within range may be another story.
But in the mids-highs, the MG-30.7 have the potential to compete head-to-head with the IRS in definition & dynamics & maybe exceed. Depending.
Curious to hear takes on this from those who have heard both.
Greg in Mississippi
Wow, the suspense is over whelming! I just wonder which one is Paul going to pick?
LOL
Paul above is laughing.
@@Bassotronics Out loud.
I have been a huge Maggie fan for years. My first serious speakers were MG1Cs.
I heard the MG30.7 when it was on display at my local Magneplanar dealer, Audio Dimensions in Royal Oak, MI (Detroit Suburb). I was amazed at their ability to produce a realistic image of a grand piano even driven by the Audio Research Reference 6 preamp and great sounding if not super powerful Reference 75SE amp. I also heard them in Evanston, IL at the time of Axpona driven by a big Boulder amp. They are by far the best Magneplanar I have ever heard.
That being said, I doubt that given a full orchestra recording they could compare to the powerful bass dynamics that the IRS V are famous for. I think I heard the IRS V at a Stereophile show in NYC in the late 80s, but the details are lost to time and memory.
i would be interested to hear a shootout between the IRS V and the Magneplanar 30.7 combined with the Open Baffle Subwoofer towers from GR Research.
I bought the MG1c 33 years ago and I still listen to them every day. I can’t even start to imagine how the 30.7 sounds, let alone the IRS.
Shoot, didn't know they had them in. Time to go visit Harry... :)
@@jbmcb that was months ago during the tour. They didn't get a pair for regular in store demos.
@@matthewsallman1700 Aw crap :) Thanks for the heads up anyways.
When you start adding tweeters interference becomes a problem. It is all to do with the wavelength of the sound and distance between the drivers. If it is a properly designed phase array, it is possible but you as listener must be in an exact spot.
Wow, those speakers are huge. One day I hope I could hear them.
If your ever in Colorado you can go to PS Audio and they will let you
I visited 2 years.
Cried like a little girl.
They are truly astonishing.
Visited this February and can confirm they are amazing. Surprisingly moderate in volume even when pushed a bit. Also cant wait for the PS audio speakers, will be buying!
with this kung flu the tours at p.s. audio have been put on hold😔
No room for racism here please.
The German made AMT drivers can play soft & loud, all with exquisite detail and clarity when used with high-end electronics.
Paul has spoken..... Nah, Not a Chance.... IRSV's are here to stay!
yep. my still the best
I've heard both the Maggie 30.7 and Infinity IRSV. I thought the 30.7 were not optimally set up and I could hear they were being fed dirty power and highs limited by the stock tweeter jumpers. On the other hand, the IRSV had an audible buzz emanating from the subwoofers. While both systems sounded good, I walked away seeing the diminishing returns of spending $$$$ on an audio system. It made me really appreciate the system I have since I felt neither system embarrassed mine. Sure they had more power and bass but I like detail, tone, texture, soundstage depth and width which my system can provide.
Why wouldn't you state what your system consists of ? Seems odd
@@Smood47 not odd at all. It is quite bizarre you would think that matters.
@@flashhog01 Facepalm
Well Sir, I´m not so sure about it as you are. The Magnepans have MASSIVE high-midrange panels, which are easely 2m (6,6 ft) high! The resulting diaphragm-surface is HUGE! I´ve not calculated it, but I bet the surface is much larger as the 36 drivers in one IRSV. If you would have been argumented with the bass-drivers, I would agree, although I´m not sure if the surface of the Maggie bass-panels isn´t sigificant larger too. So I would bet that the dynamics of the Maggie 30.7 are pretty much awesome!
@Fat Rat yo, ok, I forgot the rear-tweeters. But nevertheless: The effective surface of the maggie-Panels is bigger.
Hey Paul, yes I have heard the 30.7s and they are a large step forward from my 20.7s. More dynamic and effortless, but requires even more breathing room. I highly doubt they would come close to the IRS V. I’ve listened to the IRS Betas in the past. Stunning speakers and they would dynamically surpass the 30.7s too. That is Maggie’s greatest weakness, outright dynamics.
Cheers
I went from Infinity RS1 B's to Maggie 3.6R's after 30 seconds of hearing them. BUT..the IRSV's are mind blowing.
I was very fortunate to walk into Lyric hi-fi in NYC the day after Arnie himself set the V system up with a Levinson Ml-1 pre and ML-2 Mono-blocks driving the ribbon panels and holy shit, I had the audio experience of my lifetime for close to an hour. Still love my Maggies though decades later. They are addicting.
The top of the line MBL system really excites my senses and probably always will. Would love to get the chance to compare those two systems. They are both spectacular and there are a lot of new and very expensive systems that I have not heard but I get the sense that they are spectacular as well.
If the omni directional MBL's excite check out the TLS-1 by HHR Exotics (a vastly improved version of the Ohm Walsh F) does not need a crossover (so no crossover distortion or phase issues) is time aligned with all sound emanating from 1 driver not 3 ,like MBL's .forum.audiogon.com/discussions/walsh-style-tls-1-by-hhr-exotics-ohm-f-style ,Their site www.hhr-exoticspeakers.com/
Horns do this with one compression driver. The acoustical impedance matching allows the compression driver to move very little and yet produce a lot of sound.
You always say that regardless of the specs or the numbers or the measurements, the key is to listen and let that guide your judgement. Yet, without ever having heard the other system, you dismiss it out of hand as inferior.
You have mentioned, in passing, what you paid for your IRSV's and I paid the same for my home back in '77 ;-)
The facts are correct the more drivers less strain less resistance and more detail comes out
I’d love to listen to those big beautiful electroacoustical machines.
What about transient response? When 36 tweeters get hit with a rising edge I'm expected to believe they move in unison? Then, there's the wavelength consideration (read: phase) of the geometries and distances of those radiators when the sound wavelength at 10 kHz is 1.3 inch (or so, and less as frequency goes up). Do they sound closer to the "truth" or closer to what a given individual likes?
You can't hear phase above 5K.
The 30.7 are the best speakers I have ever heard. Have not heard the IRSV. But there is a lot to consider besides dynamics. I wouldnt hesitate to purchase the 30.7 if I had the funds. Happy listening!!!
The joke of Maggies is they look like Japanese room dividers. The 30.7's look like the Great Wall of China!
Saludos, son dos conceptos totalmente distintos, e igualmente válidos, cada uno tiene sus virtudes y sus falencias, y cada uno destaca en cualidades sonoras muy particulares, INFINITY IRS-V, genial, MAGNEPAN 30.7, genial, la idea es tener ambos, se encuentra uno en el Nirvana del sonido, con suprema calidad, abrazos
I've heard the Magnepan 30.7's! And they're wonderful. But I've not heard the Infinity IRS for comparison, so my commentary isn't likely very relevant. But I suspect Paul is right - the IRS has the dynamic capability of no other speaker I'm aware of. I can remember as a young teenager in the mid-80's when I first learned of the IRS V's, and how magical that speaker seemed in an Infinity print ad. Someday I'll make the pilgrimmage to PS Audio (post pandemic) to hear that speaker.
According to Paul's logic-- nothing can come close to a P.A.
Thanks Paul. Is it really the number of drivers or is it the combination of the surface area of the radiator/s in a given band and it's/their excursion of which dynamic range is a function? Thanks!
I have the Martin Logan Neolith, Magnepan LRS+, Kii Three's, and Magnepan 3.7i (among Focal and other monitors) and have had and compared to the current ones that I still have in my studios, the Dragon Fire and Infinity IRS V5's. The IRS's are being sold in favor of the Dragon Fire's, but that is NOT a fair comparison (over $800K), and only are going because of studio cubic feet constraints that make the IRS speakers less than they could be..
Each obviously has their strengths and trade-offs, and obviously some of them are very critical in terms of what amplification you pair them with. As great dynamic plus imaging combos the IRS are amazing. However, most people including me, found the ML Neolith's superior in terms of feeling deeply a part of a beautiful large high dynamic sound stage. However, there are about 15 other criteria that all of these could be compared on. The LRS's when combined with the right amplification and subwoofers actually sound better to many (for about $7-10K including amps, subs and all) than the Infinity and the Dragon Fire. However, if you could effectively remove one or more walls, or use the IRS in a large, non-modal challenged environment, there is nothing like them. However, even in 14' high asymmetric treated rooms of more than 10,000 cubic feet, the IRS's room interactions significantly diminish their potential. I am fairly sure though that in a room of at least 60' x 35' x 14' with the right treatment, the IRS would be a "bargain" alternative to the Dragon Fire and would best almost anything else. However, in rooms of 12' or lower ceilings and less than 10K cubic feet, the IRS or other Maggies or Martin Logans may work better for many.
Doesn’t the Magnepan 30.7 have more total radiating area on both high and low frequencies than the Infinity IRS? I know that some use dipole subs with others in the Magnepan line, but not sure if the 30.7 need them or not.
Been waiting on this. :)
Paul counts drivers but ignores the surface area of the drivers. For proper perspective, the IRSV system has less than 1/5 the actual radiating area of the Magnepans. Hmm...
I agree that Maggies are amazing, and of course the IRSV must be spectacular. But... there must be something that they put in the water in Colorado that there are so many incredible hifi manufacturers in one place !!! The counterpoint is radiating area (as per some comments below :) ). The Soundlab Majestic 945's electrostatic speakers, that I own, are also designed and manufactured in Colorado. Each speaker has a radiating area of 3125 sq inches !!! That is quite a bit more than any line source of ribbon tweeter/midrange can. And they can go down to 25Hz with slam ! Possibly not like 2 x towers of servo-woofers, but damn fine anyway. All are great speakers :) And by the way, I also own, and love, some Heil Amt1 speakers which are a folded ribbon tweeter - less area but still incredible dynamics. Love your videos !!!
I am glad that most people do not know how good Soundlabs are. Most people think that electrostats sound like Martin logans lol. Including this guy.
Love Magneplaner's (had MGIIs in the late 70s which I modified to make them better) and I had the chance to hear the larger Infinity IRSVs at Arinie Nudles place in Vail. The bass and dynamics blew me away. That led me down the rabbit hole to my current speaker system I designed to get the dynamics and incredible resolution of the large Infinity systems. Since I built it, it is at a fraction of the price of anything comparable. Love the experience and honesty of your blogs/RUclips posts.
So many sound waves from so many drivers including some rear-firing ones with different phase hitting our ear drums make the sound appear more live but not actually as it sounded in the studio when being mastered with studio monitors.
Why do audiophiles think that they should be seeking the same sound signature as studio monitors. If you want that sound, go buy some studio monitors.
If surface area is equivalent, then 36 small drivers vs. 1 large driver can still move the same amount of air. It's been awhile since I owned Maggies and I don't know if they've updated the motor aspect of their bass panels from the original wire glued to film and ceramic bar magnets. So there may be some difference in dynamics down low from some more modern design with neodymium magnets and better conductors. But the EMIT tweeter is basically a miniature Magnapan, or more exactly a miniature Appogee ribbon conductor on film diaphragm. So given equivalent motor area and radiating surface (note that the IRS is broken up into multiple separate sections with gaps in between whereas the Maggie is the entire vertical area of the panel) Something else has to be different. BTW, did you ever hear Tympani 4s? I heard a set tri-amped with ML-2 amps back in the day that had dynamics galore.
There is no doubt the magies excel in the critical midrange and sound staging. But in terms of the bass and sheer dynamics, there is NO contest. I listened to them with the Rel Subs, which are quite fast, with top tier VTS amps and it was excellent. But maybe I'm biased, but I found my Salon2's with the Krell 402 to excel the system with the dynamic slam. Both systems have their advantages and I would say it depends on your listening tastes.
Taking a step back, there are limitations to speakers drivers in a sealed/ported box. This is why many love dipoles e.g. Maggies, omnidirectionals, wide dispersion and open baffles. Oh and bipoles like old mirages.
And saving money since the enclosures seem to be so much of the cost!
@@Saphire_Throated_Carpenter_Ant True.
Hey Paul....did you replace the diaphragms of the mids and tweeters in your IRSV's? Just wondering as I know you rebuilt the woofers. I have a pair of QLS 1's and curious.
Obviously I have dome mids in my QLS 1's, although do have the same tweeters and it seems to me the highs aren't as clear and bright as they once were, and this is after completely rebuilding the crossovers and replacing all wiring.
😂 if you haven’t heard it
Maggie’s 30s what the points? To make an opinion
Paul I have heard the Maggie’s and the infinity for years even when harry Pearson was alive( absolute sound) or peter aczel from international review Maggie’s 30 sounds incredible accurate in comparison with your infinity by the way parts is scarce I am not into a Frankenstein experiment
With the emit Maggie’s sounds precisely what I heard in the recording studio
(I am recording Eng ) mixdown very close to the source not a battles of emit
And a xover nightmare
Of the infinity keep it simple
Is the way to go not a milkshake of driver that would drive you insane Paul please withhold your opinion if you haven’t heard the speakers don’t coment
the placement of the side diffusers seems odd according to theory.
I live in a studio and I would make the room for those. Lmao.
You can barely hear him with the sound backdrop. Annoying--but awesome looking speakers...
Personally, being a fan and owner of the latest design in Martin Logan electrostats, I would LOVE to hear the IRS-V alongside the Martin Logan flagship Neolith ! HUGE Estat panels and bass modules with a 12" and 15" in each ! I think Paul is a little behind hearing the latest generations from both Mag and ML . Surely the IRS-V can be rivaled in some ways, but then again, even the new PS Audio speaker line seems to be 'stalled' for some reason or another...hmmmmm (O;
@Fat Rat Got it, thanks (O:
Maggies can't hang with the IRS in the bottom end. 12 12" drivers will do that.
For all those musical interments that go below, what? 40hz?
@@glenncurry3041 I would say everything below 150 hz.
Apple's and oranges.
The question we need to ask:
Which speakers are over-priced, over-hyped, and over-sized antiques... And which are the latest carefully developed pinnacle of sound reproduction? Hmmm...
What the difference? $50,000, 1400 pounds and requires a very large room and a huge amount of $$$ for equipment to support them. How many are they going to sell? So your chances of ever enjoying them is miniscule.
Both speakers have their virtues - although there are a few similarities, some pointed out by Paul, the two design philosophies are obviously completely different - - I have spent time with the 30.7's and although I've never heard the IRS's, there's no doubt that the two speakers offer completely different perspectives - - all of the maggies have improved greatly regarding dynamics in the last 5 years or so, but I agree with Paul that the IRS's would easily win that "gun fight" - - the remaining differences are certainly a matter of taste - - - one thing that Paul didn't mention is the vast difference in price, and even though the IRS's have been out of production for years and years - even comparing the two designs using the IRS's original price without regard to inflation puts the Magnepans in a very desirable camp. By the way, I personally would love to own either, especially the "hopped up" version of the IRS's that Paul has - but I'd never look back if I had a space in my house that could accommodate the 30.7's, they are truly awesome.
I think you should refrain from speaker comparisons when you have never heard one of the speakers.
Paul, Doesn't dynamics also have to do with sensitivity? hence if a speaker is 6db more sensitive for a given watt wouldn't also be more dynamic? i understand Maggies are not that sensitive and also hard to drive.
The IRS bass modules have 2 1500 watt amps, and I think the BHKs are 700 watts apiece. So that system has 3400 ish watts driving it.
No but the Von Schweikert ultra 11's will and probably better them by a few margins
IRS V's are you still using the original diaphragms in the tweeters and mids? If not where did you get them (being the guy on eBay just started selling them last winter).
I repair emits , goto the infinity vintage group . Look up bob douglas he sell diaphragms for emits
@@MichelLinschoten As I said in my OP I know about them both. Just wondering if Paul uses them or does he have his own stash.
"I haven't listened to" - regardless of how the Magnepans compare to the IRSV, this video should have ended right then and there. :)
I said it before and I’ll say it again that room is to small for those infinity speakers and they are not being able to perform there best
There's another types of line array not just these what about them and in kit form as well
That room sounds a bit echoey Paul when you speak
Been there, sounds great
I have made my own planar units with multiple Center points on same surface...
Therefore I don’t need much power to hear the details...
Why is one power outlet red ?
The red outlet is reserved for any equipment manufactured in the People's Republic of China (the Sprout is manufactured overseas, isn't it?). Hah, no idea actually. I hope to visit the mountains again when things return to a reasonable semblance of the old normal and maybe drop by PS Audio. Last time I put boots (well, sneakers) on the ground at the grand and glorious results of the Laramide orogeny was on our honeymoon in 1988 (views from the Denver Airport and flyovers a couple of times are nice, but don't really count). Should such a thing come to fruition, I'll ask.
Heavy-duty and hospital grade 20-amp rated.
Huh, it is a hospital grade. So basically a 20 amp outlet that can handle an ass whooping. Seems usless for a listening room but at least i know why its red.
They can equal them, just put your ear close to some heavy fireworks going off before testing 👍
How about the Genesis Primes? Does the Genesis Prime equal the IRS V?
Basically Paul saying hell to tha naw naw! Take them Maggie's home cause like MC Hammer said, U Can't Touch This!
I heard them back in the 90's The song was Roger Miller's King of the road
It was unbelievable! Another song to test your speaker mid range, check out Roger Miller's, Little green Apples
Didn't the RS5's cost $40k???
$58,000 is what Paul has said he paid for them. then had the woofers, and servos rebuilt, and the mids and tweeters rewired and crossover rebuilt. so there is a chunk of money sitting in that room.
No they cannot and I am more than qualified to say it as I play with a tympani I (6ft tall 3 panels per side ) it's not a 30.7 but it's as close as.you can get within the realm of budget.
The only way to get close, is to add subwoofers to get dynamic range. It's the achilles heel of magnepans. My rs1b (cousin of the irs v) posses way more dynamic range. But that doesn't mean my maggie is subpar , it's hard to compare speakers such as the irs series or even the rs1b (7x8inch woofer towers) to any "normal " speaker . It's a wall of dynamic galore you get out of them
However paul once again showed his ignorance a little . As arnie nudell ALWAYS HATED using smaller drivers as they create lobing and issues. The surface area of all those emits combined are barely exceeding that of a tympani or 30.7 ...
It's the low end where the irs v will be king at. Mid range ? Not so much you're talking about in my case 2x6 foot panels of mostly driver for the mid low sections.
Way more surface area and way less complicated crossover requirement. Than the irs v (and yes I got friends that own a irs v not new to the speakers like most here)
As much as I adore nudells work, and as much as respect all his designs (I have a big collection of them)
It's defeatable .... The irs v is not a speaker that's the only speaker on earth that can sound the way it does. It's over 40 years old, there are clearly speakers out there now . That can match it (wilson watts) is one of them , the 30.7 won in 2017 the best overall speaker award alongside wilson's (costing by a factor of 4 more than the maggie )
They have nothing to prove
I thought the IRS had 42 drivers per channel, 84 total?
@Fat Rat I thought they were all open backed dipole drivers, or are there additional tweeters wired in reverse phase on the rear?
he said (in the video that) irs5 have132 drivers / 2 = 66 per side. left or right
the tweeters are dipole, as Paul said in previous videos.
the magneplanar is not full range, that makes it not a complete sounding hifi system. so IRSV wins on that point alone. full range is a big deal and should be the first you want to achieve in a system.
Dynamics is just 1 part of the puzzle . The most important part being directivity , and constant directivity being the goal . There is no chance in hell that those wide wings can ever get to anything remotely being worth called "constant directivity"
I used to believe that bass was non-directional.
Then I sat in that room and learned the truth.
These have by far the best sound stage and imaging of anything I have ever heard.
So you are the guy who owns the IRS? LOL
The magnapans probably only costs like 200 bucks to produce. But this must be like at least 15k to produce is my guess.
I heard Magnapans before, fine for the price, but no where near a IRSV that runs with a standard filter. Pauls I believe, is an improved version as far as I can understand.
But can they image as well as mags?
I can't comment about which is better and which isn't. However I do think the premise of the argument is flawed. The argument paul puts forward is valid for dynamic drivers because dynamic drivers do not scale linearly. In other words, 2 4 inch woofers does not equal a single 8 inch woofer. Planar drivers do actually scale somewhat linearly. IF THE DRIVERS ARE THEORETICALLY PERFECT (key phrase right there), then there is no difference from having 50 tweeter panels in a row vs having a single panel that is 50 tweeter panels long.
Aren't those Heil Air Motion Transformer knockoffs?
Ok here's the deal I have 1000dollars cash and that's the most i would pay and maybe I can make a couple bucks on the resale!🤣
Check out the sprout + elac combo
NO!!!
Basically Paul saying hell to tha naw naw! Take them Maggie's home cause like MC Hammer said, U Can't Touch This!