I am a former UPCI Pastor and I must say that was probably the best exit testimony I have heard. Wow! A must watch for those thinking of leaving or recently out.
My wife and I were members of The Experience for over 5 years until we moved out of state. Corey is as solid as they come. It was an honor to be shepherded by him.
Everything you said about your marriage is what happened in my marriage so again I feel your pain and I love how you talked about it in a positive way!
I’ve known Corey since he was a little boy and have been to his church. He is an amazing pastor and it shows in his church’s growth. He is amazing and there is no doubt that his ministry is God ordained. I am so proud of the man he has become.
@@lady4vols I don't speak to what you know. I only state the truth that the size of a church or movement is not, in itself, indicative of God's approval. If that were the case, we'd all be Muslims.
Corey is my cousin. His mom, my aunt, and I are close. We talk often and she has told me stories that has blown my mind about the very subject that was asked of Corey! I believe awareness and discussion is extremely important when it comes to religion!
The interview with Cory was excellent. I hope that there will be a part 2 someday. It would be great if a UPC leader would come on but Im not holding my breath
Keep being curious, honest and open while being rooted in the Bible. Unfortunately Christians (or those who profess to be) are the only army that shoots its wounded. I’m proud to be part of the Experience Community.
I bounced around to different denominations and even other religions for over a decade after leaving what we grew up in. Once I dove deeper into history, I realized that the Church that Christ started and gave to His Apostles and disciples had never went away, it has existed continuously on the other side of the world, even against persecutions as He promised. I became an Orthodox catecumen in 2020, baptized in 2021 and will never look back. I thank God now that I can see all of my sins clearly and spend the rest of my life in peace and repentance. I hope you're doing well Steven. May God bless you in whatever you do.
Brothers Urshan and Sabin were humbled powerfully by Walter Martin and Calvin Beisner on the John Ankerberg show some decades ago. One of the strongest defeats I have ever seen. I was raised UPC but came to see the truth many years ago.
@ idk what you mean by came to truth…Nor have I seen this debate you’re referring to but I will research it. But I will add, just because one can’t “debate” or got “defeated” in a debate doesn’t mean their believe is wrong or right. I don’t judge my beliefs based on how eloquent someone can be with their words. Matter of fact, there’s atheists that can put our top scholars in Christendom to shame from a worldly debate side of things… but that doesn’t mean their right or truthful
Hello! I am a Oneness Pentecostal pastor. I am not at all afraid of a conversation about doctrine, particularly Oneness. I left several comments under your interview with Corey Trimble, and I would welcome a written exchange here, on your blog (if you have one), or privately. Most people are not philosophically or theologically capable of technically analyzing the fundamental, foundational ideas and presuppositions which lead to the conclusions they draw. And that's true of both sides. The vast majority of believers have a very superficial understanding of the relevant issues, which is why they get defensive when challenged. Most Trinitarians in the blogosphere get just as defensive as Oneness believers when challenged over the logical contradictions entailed by all iterations of the doctrine of the Trinity (DT). I've had them textually “scream” that I'm a hell-bound heretic spewing mumbo-jumbo against the “revealed” truth of the Trinity. So, the angst cuts both ways. That said, I've also encountered very intelligent Trinitarian students and theologians and have had fruitful dialog with them. Once the issues are analyzed, many of them either acknowledge a very real logical problem with their version of the Trinity, or they realize that more study is needed to adequately address our objections. In short, we feel that all versions of the DT logically extend to tritheism or divine composition. These realities force adherents to unintentionally affirm a logical contradiction at some level. And if the DT is logically contradictory, then it is on par with square circles and married bachelors. If the Bible is God's infallible word, then it is impossible for it to teach the DT. The Trinitarian template doesn't qualify as even a hypothesis for biblical interpretation because it's a self-canceling idea. Thus, the biblical record must be looked at through another lens. The only other logical options are Modalism and Arianism. There's no rush or timetable on my part. Since you've taken time to address some of these issues via two RUclips presentations, you at least present yourself as someone willing to delve more deeply into the topic. We can exchange ideas as time permits. Your choice.
@TexasHoosier3118 If you're asking me whether I am fluent in Hebrew and Greek, the answer is no. But please recall that in Greece there are Catholic, Eastern, Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Mormon and Jehovah's Witnesses congregations. In the world, there are several sects of Judaism. Being fluent in a language does not guarantee agreement. One's conclusions ultimately depend upon one's metaphysical framework and how one interprets the Bible.
I enjoyed this video! It feels good hearing positive vibes. One takeaway about Oneness I am reminded of was when Rabbi Yeshua said, one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16
You write: _One takeaway about Oneness I am reminded of was when Rabbi Yeshua said, one flock and one shepherd._ Except that “one” with respect to flock is a composite oneness, whereas “one” with respect to the Shepherd is a numerical oneness.
I grew up since birth in Apostolic Pentecostal oneness movement with A A and UPCI great church and fellowship conversations annually great leadership even among PAW
Very sorry Steven for the loss of your marriage and being abandoned by your wife; not once but twice. I can see clearly the very deep pain you have and how hurt it has left you. I sadly can relate and was abandoned likewise by one professing Christ. I never was able to reconcile this with the woman I thought she was and how easy it was to forsake me. Three + years for me and so too do I have much hurt and pain and have been forever scarred. Like you, I determined never to bad mouth or slander and not to return evil for evil but rather blessings. Coffee on me if you ever wanted to get together. Peace in Christ.
Since we don't know the details of their breakup, it's rather difficult to assess the matter. And, really, I feel that this particular situation is none of my business. However, as a Oneness pastor speaking to the general issue, there are couples who break up over doctrinal differences. If one party commits himself/herself to attacking the other's beliefs, whether directly or indirectly, the other party will sometimes reach a breaking point. It's one thing to live with somebody with different beliefs. It's another altogether to live with somebody who makes a ministry out of discrediting one's church (however “honest” a discussion that ministry professes to engage in). The differences between Oneness and Trinitarian churches are fundamental, including matters of soteriology. I've seen relationships work, but not on that level.
God Bless you, Steven. As a Oneness believer, I'm sorry to hear that others have blasted you for having that conversation. It is something I disagree with.
There's nothing wrong with having an open discussion about problems which plague all kinds of churches. All of the abuses and excesses they discuss also occur in Trinitarian churches. The problem is when they tend to conflate those problems with doctrine. Consistency would dictate that if those problems cast a shadow on Oneness Pentecostalism, then it equally casts a shadow on Trinitarian churches. I've seen firsthand the abuse people have received from Trinitarian friends and families when they converted to a Oneness church. Just reading the comments under the original interview shows the tendency to conflate abuse with doctrine. They're separate issues.
Steven, thanks for making this important followup video. It's clear that you along with hundreds of other Fathers (or Mothers) ended up single because of a basic shortcoming in religious groups - the fear of having an honest conversation (you articulated this well). A secondary factor in family unit destruction operates whenever a group twists scripture to demand a loyalty from it's members that competes with the marriage or family covenant. You have helped me to see that my former group, although not oneness-pentecostal in branding, behaves in almost identical ways. The Local Church of Witness Lee (my former group) does not view speaking in tongues as evidence of salvation, however they do insist that members "call upon the name of Jesus" energetically & loudly in order to be able to walk in the Spirit. I really appreciate your conversations. Steve N. - Boise
To say that people have a "fear of having an honest discussion" sounds a wee bit pejorative. The vast majority of believers, both Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian, are not capable of discussing theology at a high level or to debate church matters in an articulate fashion. What normally happens is a layperson or a minister specializes in addressing certain matters, and when he takes it upon himself to confront people with whom he disagrees, they are unprepared to counter what he says, so they get defensive. I've seen Trinitarians get just as defensive as Oneness believers when confronted with the logical contradictions inherent in their doctrine. I've also seen Oneness believers suffer abuse from friends and family because they converted away from their Trinitarianism. Defensiveness is in no measure an indication of faulty doctrine. If apologists really want to have an "honest conversation," then they need to pick on somebody their own size---somebody who's researched the same subjects and is competent to discuss them. Are we seeking the truth, or are we seeking to exploit somebody's vulnerabilities to further our agenda?
I know you don't want accolades, but I just want to say I'm super proud of you to come through all that, and still have a tender heart and to be a lover of the truth. When the truth you love is Jesus Christ himself, and not any doctoral position or dogma- I had five years in the UPC and it took me a while to get my heart centered on Christ Again, but I also am grateful and see it as a part of my journey
Thanks for the follow up video. I watched the first one earlier today. IMO, this clarifies some things. Even though I disagree with leaving the Apostolic doctrine, people that condemn people who do are in the wrong. The proper thing to do is pray for them in hopes that they return to the full truth.
Steven Solomon, that is an excellent name. Steven, derived from Greek, meaning "crown, wreath." Fit for a King and the King of Israel 🇮🇱 King Solomon ✡️ God has blessed you with a wonderful name! May you live long and prosper!
Hey Steven, I am a current UPCI saint and I just wanna say I’m sorry about the hurt you must feel. Im also sorry about your wife leaving you and the negative stigma that brings. My wife also left me so I know how you feel.
I’ve always taught my children now grown adults Bible Believers it’s all about just you and Yeshua (Jesus) not your Pastor Preacher Priest Pope President Politician/ only Holy Spirit Guidance is 24/7 through King Jesus sent by Abba Father❤From a former UPC member… Yeshua came to show us The Father ❤Blessings on your journey…
He’s very educated across a broad spectrum of history and theology. He’s a confident bridge builder without compromising his own personal belief and is secure in conversations that would oppose his personal beliefs.
I encourage you, as another has suggested, to have a REAL discussion with Nathaniel Urshan, Dr. Bernard or Bishop Dan Butler --All good men who love G-d. Somehow I’m getting the impression you have issues with ‘old school UPC family culture’. (I come from a different more intense culture.) I encourage you to explore that option.
I also wanna say I guess what’s upsetting is it just seems whenever someone leaves it seems that they start pages like these only interview other members that have left and that’s why people get upset. Like would you be open to inviting someone who is currently apostolic? And if you have I apologize but I’m just showing that’s why so many of us get upset. But I love you and I hope one day you come back because I believe in what is taught here. I’m hoping that relationships can be mended in your life and sorry for the few that judged you or pushed you away. God bless bro
Very good observation. I just invited him to a blog (here or elsewhere) and/or email dialog about the Godhead. I've been in very many debates, conversations, and joint analysis with Trinitarians and am not at all afraid of good faith interaction.
I've wondered the same thing. With many, not all, there's the same kind of fear on their part that they condemn in us. If they really have the truth on their side, why don't they invite a Oneness scholar for an interview? Why would somebody who is steeped in theology criticize lay persons for being afraid to openly discuss matters of doctrine, control, etc.? The overwhelming majority of lay persons are not prepared to discuss deep theology, including why a strong ministry is scripturally empowered to erect standards and why fellowship lines must be clearly drawn. Some think that just because they're able to run circles around lay persons, that's indicative of defective doctrine. But when it comes to picking on somebody their own size, the interviews are few and far between. I'm not talking about debates. There are plenty of Oneness/Trinity debates (most of the ones I've heard are very bad) on RUclips. I'm talking about real interviews and dialog without the “gotcha” debate environment.
@davidcoleman5860 yes as you know you can do nothing against the truth but for the truth. I found that they (trinitarians) don't want to discuss face to face. They have their enjoyment in sin and their religion with it. They don't want to give up their pleasures and worldliness. They don't blinded by Satan just like the Bible says.
@@ToughBear You're correct in that much of their talk about cults and control stems from their worldliness. What propels them is a desire to live and look like the world. When they couldn't have their way in an Apostolic church, they suddenly got this revelation that Oneness and baptism in Jesus' name are false teachings. They got this revelation that the biblical authority to erect standards is mind control and cultic. So, instead of admitting that they want to blend in with the world, they can now hide behind their walking in "biblical" Christianity. That said, there are also others who had genuine questions about certain passages in the Bible that they couldn't reconcile with Apostolic doctrine. And, regrettably, they didn't have teachers who were capable of helping them navigate the waters of false doctrine. Thus, their confusion became greater and, tragically, they fell for the snake oil that superficially made sense to them. And the irony of it all is they never examined what they jumped into with the same level of scrutiny that they applied to what they left. Have you noticed that most if not all of these "exit celebration" sites tut-tut our insistence that one must have a revelation of Oneness? Jesus clearly stated that nobody knows the Father or the Son saving those to whom it is revealed by the Son (Mt. 11:27; Lk. 10:22). As the Apostles needed their minds opened to understand the Scriptures (Lk. 24:45), we also need divine endowment to understand them. Thus, even churches with a ministry incapable of adequately addressing all questions, if a person sincerely seeks understanding from God, He will give it to them. But since the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jer. 17:9), not all "sincere" prayers are really sincere. How many times have I heard, "Well, I prayed about it and I feel..."! Such prayers are what James says are asking amiss (4:3). Genuine hunger and thirst will produce genuine fulfillment (Mt. 5:6).
@@ToughBear You are correct in that much of their talk about cults and control stems from a worldly mindset. What appears to propel them is a desire to live and look like the world. When they couldn't have their way in an Apostolic church, they suddenly got this revelation that Oneness and baptism in Jesus' name are false teachings. They got this revelation that the biblical authority to erect standards is mind control and cultic. So, instead of admitting that they want to blend with the world, they can now hide behind their walking in "biblical" Christianity. That said, there are also others who had genuine questions about certain passages in the Bible that they couldn't reconcile with Apostolic doctrine. And, regrettably, they didn't have teachers who were capable of helping them navigate the waters of false doctrine. Thus, their confusion became greater and, tragically, they fell for the snake oil that superficially made sense to them. And the irony of it all is that they never examined what they jumped into with the same level of scrutiny that they applied to what they left. Have you noticed that most if not all of these "exit testimony" sites tut-tut our insistence that one must have a revelation of Oneness? Jesus clearly stated that nobody knows the Father or the Son saving those to whom it is revealed by the Son (Mt. 11:27; Lk. 10:22). As the Apostles needed their minds opened to understand the scriptures (Lk. 24:45), we also need divine endowment to understand them. Thus, even those in churches under a ministry incapable of adequately addressing all questions can sincerely ask God for understanding, and He will give it to them. But since the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Je. 17:9), not all "sincere" prayers are really sincere. How many times have I heard, "Well, I prayed about it and I feel..."! Such prayers are what James says are asking amiss (4:3). Genuine hunger and thirst will produce genuine fulfillment (Mt. 5:6).
You probably have fallen away when you can easily start deciding for yourself which nt scriptures should remain and which you should ignore. Acts 2:38 (for example) is still in the Bible(and rightly divided).
I found out the name of our HEAVENLY FATHER is written 6,000 in the old testament and the DIVINE NAME is hidden in the new testament. The name Jesus is an English word, not ARAMAIC/HEBREW name. The disciples of the MESSIAH didn't speak English , nor did they know of a person named jesus (English) Iesus (Greek). The MESSIAH is the word of GOD [TORAH] became flesh. John 1:14 My UPC Pastor and friend left UPC and joined a Christian Cult claiming that they had non-HEBREW Apostles and Prophets (false Prophets and Apostles). I cried out to Jesus for direction at night in a dream, Rabbi Yeshua appeared to me and told me I was walking in error and YHVH ADONAI will heal me from AIDS. Rabbi Yeshua told me I am "Born Again" grafted into Israel Romans 11:11-36, Ezekiel 37:1-23. The TORAH is TRUTH Psalms 119:160 Rabbi Yesha taught me Malachi 2:6 Rabbi Yeshua said no one come to the FATHER except through me John 14:6 Rabbi Yeshua is the TORAH became flesh. Rabbi Yeshua told me that I am in the COVENANT and I am to live out the TORAH. I am still waiting for the NEW COVENANT Jeremiah 31:31.
I am glad I left Oneness Pentecostal Theology and Pauline Christianity. Paul never met "Jesus," neither was he one of the 12 disciples. I never knew G-d the FATHER'S name that was given to Moses and the Hebrew Prophets. The TORAH is the WORD OF G-D, not Paul's letters(epistles) to the churches. I was learning Hebrew in 3rd grade many years at 15 years old before I was converted to Oneness Pentecostalism.
I’ve grew up in the UPCI. Went to the church Corey went to for a couple years, I’m still Pentecostal. The Interview wasn’t, to me, insulting. What I did notice is a lot of “old time” rules were one of discussed topics. All of the rules you’ve mentioned have all disappeared to my knowledge. I’ve been exposed to so many other religions and I’ve dove into the Bible and absolutely love open conversations. I do agree with you, people and ministers in the UPCI should not become defensive when people start asking questions. With all this being said. A lot of the complaints or issues is from human error. No human is perfect. No denomination is perfect. I’ll be the first to admit the UPCI isn’t perfect by any means. However I believe in the truth. And what God has brought to my eyes. And it’s what the oneness preaches and teaches. God bless. Not wanting to argue. Loved your interview. I believe all Pentecostals should watch it. Because you are right in some people in the church will excommunicate members who leave, and that’s 100% wrong. However, I believe the UPCI has improved leaps and bounds since then.
I am a former UPCI Pastor and I must say that was probably the best exit testimony I have heard. Wow! A must watch for those thinking of leaving or recently out.
@@mloy1915 thanks for the kind words and thanks for watching
My wife and I were members of The Experience for over 5 years until we moved out of state. Corey is as solid as they come. It was an honor to be shepherded by him.
Would love to see you have an interview with Nathaniel Urshan
I think he would be a good representative of oneness pentecostals
@@tistheStevenDavid Bernard would be better….Urshan is great as well
You should do an interview with Nathaniel Urshan. That would be great, interesting content.
I agree, Nathaniel Urshan, Anthony Mangun, David Bernard, or Raymond Woodward. Please have one of them on your show. It would very informative.
@@BrandonE-ri4km Nathaniel Urshan 100%
Everything you said about your marriage is what happened in my marriage so again I feel your pain and I love how you talked about it in a positive way!
I’ve known Corey since he was a little boy and have been to his church. He is an amazing pastor and it shows in his church’s growth. He is amazing and there is no doubt that his ministry is God ordained. I am so proud of the man he has become.
The size of a movement is not indicative of God's ordination. The fastest growing religion is Islam. Is that God-ordained?
@@davidcoleman5860 I know Corey and the pastor he is and that’s all I need to know.
Well I’ve known Corey a long time and he’s an amazing man and preacher, your barking up the wrong tree.
@@lady4vols I don't speak to what you know. I only state the truth that the size of a church or movement is not, in itself, indicative of God's approval. If that were the case, we'd all be Muslims.
@@davidcoleman5860 your truth.
Corey is my cousin. His mom, my aunt, and I are close. We talk often and she has told me stories that has blown my mind about the very subject that was asked of Corey! I believe awareness and discussion is extremely important when it comes to religion!
The interview with Cory was excellent. I hope that there will be a part 2 someday. It would be great if a UPC leader would come on but Im not holding my breath
I don't think any have been invited. I've offered to have a written dialog with Steven and am awaiting his reply.
Are you a national leader in the UPC? They’re not looking for lay people.
Pastor Cory is SO awesome. Man of God, tells it how it is! (only according to scripture) and is funny with a great Testimony. Thank you for this 😉
Keep being curious, honest and open while being rooted in the Bible.
Unfortunately Christians (or those who profess to be) are the only army that shoots its wounded.
I’m proud to be part of the Experience Community.
Do you really think that Muslims do a better job of helping their wounded? Simple fact check here.
I enjoyed your interview with Pastor Corey.
I bounced around to different denominations and even other religions for over a decade after leaving what we grew up in. Once I dove deeper into history, I realized that the Church that Christ started and gave to His Apostles and disciples had never went away, it has existed continuously on the other side of the world, even against persecutions as He promised. I became an Orthodox catecumen in 2020, baptized in 2021 and will never look back. I thank God now that I can see all of my sins clearly and spend the rest of my life in peace and repentance. I hope you're doing well Steven. May God bless you in whatever you do.
If you are at peace and have scoured the Scriptures, then I am so happy for you.
You must have Nathaniel Urshan on here, He is so respectful and loving. You’d love him and so would your audience
Brothers Urshan and Sabin were humbled powerfully by Walter Martin and Calvin Beisner on the John Ankerberg show some decades ago. One of the strongest defeats I have ever seen. I was raised UPC but came to see the truth many years ago.
@ idk what you mean by came to truth…Nor have I seen this debate you’re referring to but I will research it.
But I will add, just because one can’t “debate” or got “defeated” in a debate doesn’t mean their believe is wrong or right.
I don’t judge my beliefs based on how eloquent someone can be with their words.
Matter of fact, there’s atheists that can put our top scholars in Christendom to shame from a worldly debate side of things… but that doesn’t mean their right or truthful
Hello! I am a Oneness Pentecostal pastor. I am not at all afraid of a conversation about doctrine, particularly Oneness. I left several comments under your interview with Corey Trimble, and I would welcome a written exchange here, on your blog (if you have one), or privately.
Most people are not philosophically or theologically capable of technically analyzing the fundamental, foundational ideas and presuppositions which lead to the conclusions they draw. And that's true of both sides. The vast majority of believers have a very superficial understanding of the relevant issues, which is why they get defensive when challenged. Most Trinitarians in the blogosphere get just as defensive as Oneness believers when challenged over the logical contradictions entailed by all iterations of the doctrine of the Trinity (DT). I've had them textually “scream” that I'm a hell-bound heretic spewing mumbo-jumbo against the “revealed” truth of the Trinity. So, the angst cuts both ways.
That said, I've also encountered very intelligent Trinitarian students and theologians and have had fruitful dialog with them. Once the issues are analyzed, many of them either acknowledge a very real logical problem with their version of the Trinity, or they realize that more study is needed to adequately address our objections.
In short, we feel that all versions of the DT logically extend to tritheism or divine composition. These realities force adherents to unintentionally affirm a logical contradiction at some level. And if the DT is logically contradictory, then it is on par with square circles and married bachelors. If the Bible is God's infallible word, then it is impossible for it to teach the DT. The Trinitarian template doesn't qualify as even a hypothesis for biblical interpretation because it's a self-canceling idea. Thus, the biblical record must be looked at through another lens. The only other logical options are Modalism and Arianism.
There's no rush or timetable on my part. Since you've taken time to address some of these issues via two RUclips presentations, you at least present yourself as someone willing to delve more deeply into the topic. We can exchange ideas as time permits. Your choice.
Are you well versed in both Greek and Hebrew?
@TexasHoosier3118 If you're asking me whether I am fluent in Hebrew and Greek, the answer is no. But please recall that in Greece there are Catholic, Eastern, Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Mormon and Jehovah's Witnesses congregations. In the world, there are several sects of Judaism. Being fluent in a language does not guarantee agreement. One's conclusions ultimately depend upon one's metaphysical framework and how one interprets the Bible.
I enjoyed this video! It feels good hearing positive vibes. One takeaway about Oneness I am reminded of was when Rabbi Yeshua said, one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16
You write:
_One takeaway about Oneness I am reminded of was when Rabbi Yeshua said, one flock and one shepherd._
Except that “one” with respect to flock is a composite oneness, whereas “one” with respect to the Shepherd is a numerical oneness.
I grew up since birth in Apostolic Pentecostal oneness movement with A A and UPCI great church and fellowship conversations annually great leadership even among PAW
Very sorry Steven for the loss of your marriage and being abandoned by your wife; not once but twice. I can see clearly the very deep pain you have and how hurt it has left you. I sadly can relate and was abandoned likewise by one professing Christ. I never was able to reconcile this with the woman I thought she was and how easy it was to forsake me. Three + years for me and so too do I have much hurt and pain and have been forever scarred. Like you, I determined never to bad mouth or slander and not to return evil for evil but rather blessings. Coffee on me if you ever wanted to get together. Peace in Christ.
Since we don't know the details of their breakup, it's rather difficult to assess the matter. And, really, I feel that this particular situation is none of my business. However, as a Oneness pastor speaking to the general issue, there are couples who break up over doctrinal differences. If one party commits himself/herself to attacking the other's beliefs, whether directly or indirectly, the other party will sometimes reach a breaking point. It's one thing to live with somebody with different beliefs. It's another altogether to live with somebody who makes a ministry out of discrediting one's church (however “honest” a discussion that ministry professes to engage in).
The differences between Oneness and Trinitarian churches are fundamental, including matters of soteriology. I've seen relationships work, but not on that level.
God Bless you, Steven. As a Oneness believer, I'm sorry to hear that others have blasted you for having that conversation. It is something I disagree with.
There's nothing wrong with having an open discussion about problems which plague all kinds of churches. All of the abuses and excesses they discuss also occur in Trinitarian churches. The problem is when they tend to conflate those problems with doctrine. Consistency would dictate that if those problems cast a shadow on Oneness Pentecostalism, then it equally casts a shadow on Trinitarian churches. I've seen firsthand the abuse people have received from Trinitarian friends and families when they converted to a Oneness church. Just reading the comments under the original interview shows the tendency to conflate abuse with doctrine. They're separate issues.
Steven, thanks for making this important followup video. It's clear that you along with hundreds of other Fathers (or Mothers) ended up single because of a basic shortcoming in religious groups - the fear of having an honest conversation (you articulated this well). A secondary factor in family unit destruction operates whenever a group twists scripture to demand a loyalty from it's members that competes with the marriage or family covenant. You have helped me to see that my former group, although not oneness-pentecostal in branding, behaves in almost identical ways. The Local Church of Witness Lee (my former group) does not view speaking in tongues as evidence of salvation, however they do insist that members "call upon the name of Jesus" energetically & loudly in order to be able to walk in the Spirit. I really appreciate your conversations. Steve N. - Boise
To say that people have a "fear of having an honest discussion" sounds a wee bit pejorative. The vast majority of believers, both Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian, are not capable of discussing theology at a high level or to debate church matters in an articulate fashion. What normally happens is a layperson or a minister specializes in addressing certain matters, and when he takes it upon himself to confront people with whom he disagrees, they are unprepared to counter what he says, so they get defensive. I've seen Trinitarians get just as defensive as Oneness believers when confronted with the logical contradictions inherent in their doctrine. I've also seen Oneness believers suffer abuse from friends and family because they converted away from their Trinitarianism. Defensiveness is in no measure an indication of faulty doctrine.
If apologists really want to have an "honest conversation," then they need to pick on somebody their own size---somebody who's researched the same subjects and is competent to discuss them. Are we seeking the truth, or are we seeking to exploit somebody's vulnerabilities to further our agenda?
@@davidcoleman5860 It is true that most Christians do not know in much depth matters of theology, apologetics, philosophy, or even Bible knowledge.
I know you don't want accolades, but I just want to say I'm super proud of you to come through all that, and still have a tender heart and to be a lover of the truth. When the truth you love is Jesus Christ himself, and not any doctoral position or dogma- I had five years in the UPC and it took me a while to get my heart centered on Christ Again, but I also am grateful and see it as a part of my journey
Thanks for the follow up video. I watched the first one earlier today. IMO, this clarifies some things. Even though I disagree with leaving the Apostolic doctrine, people that condemn people who do are in the wrong. The proper thing to do is pray for them in hopes that they return to the full truth.
Thank you for bravely sharing!
Steven Solomon, that is an excellent name. Steven, derived from Greek, meaning "crown, wreath." Fit for a King and the King of Israel 🇮🇱 King Solomon ✡️ God has blessed you with a wonderful name! May you live long and prosper!
Hey Steven, I am a current UPCI saint and I just wanna say I’m sorry about the hurt you must feel. Im also sorry about your wife leaving you and the negative stigma that brings. My wife also left me so I know how you feel.
Why would you want to leave the truth?
Your words prove his point.
@@orborn3580 how so?
@@orborn3580 And when people leave Trinitarian churches, they didn't leave the “truth,” right?
No, no one is "afraid". The scriptures you once believed in are still in the Bible...and are as important as the new ones you think you have found.
I’ve always taught my children now grown adults Bible Believers it’s all about just you and Yeshua (Jesus) not your Pastor Preacher Priest Pope President Politician/ only Holy Spirit Guidance is 24/7 through King Jesus sent by Abba Father❤From a former UPC member… Yeshua came to show us The Father ❤Blessings on your journey…
UPCers are not respectful in any way shape or form and you know that so move on and start trying to help people get saved.
Why are people mentioning Nathaniel Utahan? Just curious.
He’s very educated across a broad spectrum of history and theology. He’s a confident bridge builder without compromising his own personal belief and is secure in conversations that would oppose his personal beliefs.
Urshan is his name. He will show you the truth.
I encourage you, as another has suggested, to have a REAL discussion with Nathaniel Urshan, Dr. Bernard or Bishop Dan Butler --All good men who love G-d.
Somehow I’m getting the impression you have issues with ‘old school UPC family culture’. (I come from a different more intense culture.)
I encourage you to explore that option.
I also wanna say I guess what’s upsetting is it just seems whenever someone leaves it seems that they start pages like these only interview other members that have left and that’s why people get upset. Like would you be open to inviting someone who is currently apostolic? And if you have I apologize but I’m just showing that’s why so many of us get upset. But I love you and I hope one day you come back because I believe in what is taught here. I’m hoping that relationships can be mended in your life and sorry for the few that judged you or pushed you away. God bless bro
Very good observation. I just invited him to a blog (here or elsewhere) and/or email dialog about the Godhead. I've been in very many debates, conversations, and joint analysis with Trinitarians and am not at all afraid of good faith interaction.
Connect with Nathaniel Urshan!
Why not. Obey ACTS 2:38
Why can't you simply get out of UPC, and keep the scriptures...you think you have but you have not(by your own testimony)
I appreciate your effort here. Why don’t you interview someone who hasn’t left? Let truth emerge!
That is excellent. That's a great question.
I've wondered the same thing. With many, not all, there's the same kind of fear on their part that they condemn in us. If they really have the truth on their side, why don't they invite a Oneness scholar for an interview? Why would somebody who is steeped in theology criticize lay persons for being afraid to openly discuss matters of doctrine, control, etc.? The overwhelming majority of lay persons are not prepared to discuss deep theology, including why a strong ministry is scripturally empowered to erect standards and why fellowship lines must be clearly drawn. Some think that just because they're able to run circles around lay persons, that's indicative of defective doctrine. But when it comes to picking on somebody their own size, the interviews are few and far between.
I'm not talking about debates. There are plenty of Oneness/Trinity debates (most of the ones I've heard are very bad) on RUclips. I'm talking about real interviews and dialog without the “gotcha” debate environment.
@davidcoleman5860 yes as you know you can do nothing against the truth but for the truth. I found that they (trinitarians) don't want to discuss face to face. They have their enjoyment in sin and their religion with it. They don't want to give up their pleasures and worldliness. They don't blinded by Satan just like the Bible says.
@@ToughBear You're correct in that much of their talk about cults and control stems from their worldliness. What propels them is a desire to live and look like the world. When they couldn't have their way in an Apostolic church, they suddenly got this revelation that Oneness and baptism in Jesus' name are false teachings. They got this revelation that the biblical authority to erect standards is mind control and cultic. So, instead of admitting that they want to blend in with the world, they can now hide behind their walking in "biblical" Christianity.
That said, there are also others who had genuine questions about certain passages in the Bible that they couldn't reconcile with Apostolic doctrine. And, regrettably, they didn't have teachers who were capable of helping them navigate the waters of false doctrine. Thus, their confusion became greater and, tragically, they fell for the snake oil that superficially made sense to them. And the irony of it all is they never examined what they jumped into with the same level of scrutiny that they applied to what they left.
Have you noticed that most if not all of these "exit celebration" sites tut-tut our insistence that one must have a revelation of Oneness? Jesus clearly stated that nobody knows the Father or the Son saving those to whom it is revealed by the Son (Mt. 11:27; Lk. 10:22). As the Apostles needed their minds opened to understand the Scriptures (Lk. 24:45), we also need divine endowment to understand them. Thus, even churches with a ministry incapable of adequately addressing all questions, if a person sincerely seeks understanding from God, He will give it to them. But since the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jer. 17:9), not all "sincere" prayers are really sincere. How many times have I heard, "Well, I prayed about it and I feel..."! Such prayers are what James says are asking amiss (4:3). Genuine hunger and thirst will produce genuine fulfillment (Mt. 5:6).
@@ToughBear You are correct in that much of their talk about cults and control stems from a worldly mindset. What appears to propel them is a desire to live and look like the world. When they couldn't have their way in an Apostolic church, they suddenly got this revelation that Oneness and baptism in Jesus' name are false teachings. They got this revelation that the biblical authority to erect standards is mind control and cultic. So, instead of admitting that they want to blend with the world, they can now hide behind their walking in "biblical" Christianity.
That said, there are also others who had genuine questions about certain passages in the Bible that they couldn't reconcile with Apostolic doctrine. And, regrettably, they didn't have teachers who were capable of helping them navigate the waters of false doctrine. Thus, their confusion became greater and, tragically, they fell for the snake oil that superficially made sense to them. And the irony of it all is that they never examined what they jumped into with the same level of scrutiny that they applied to what they left.
Have you noticed that most if not all of these "exit testimony" sites tut-tut our insistence that one must have a revelation of Oneness? Jesus clearly stated that nobody knows the Father or the Son saving those to whom it is revealed by the Son (Mt. 11:27; Lk. 10:22). As the Apostles needed their minds opened to understand the scriptures (Lk. 24:45), we also need divine endowment to understand them. Thus, even those in churches under a ministry incapable of adequately addressing all questions can sincerely ask God for understanding, and He will give it to them. But since the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Je. 17:9), not all "sincere" prayers are really sincere. How many times have I heard, "Well, I prayed about it and I feel..."! Such prayers are what James says are asking amiss (4:3). Genuine hunger and thirst will produce genuine fulfillment (Mt. 5:6).
You probably have fallen away when you can easily start deciding for yourself which nt scriptures should remain and which you should ignore. Acts 2:38 (for example) is still in the Bible(and rightly divided).
Or OT Scriptures for that matter. Does the UPC believe that the OT is also God's inerrant revealed word?
Yet you did it any way!!
You don’t understand the godhead. Sorry not trying to be disrespectful but your trying to sound like you’ve finally arrived but its silly
Hurt people, hurt people.. Sick people, get people sick.. Sounds like you follow your own feelings.
I found out the name of our HEAVENLY FATHER is written 6,000 in the old testament and the DIVINE NAME is hidden in the new testament. The name Jesus is an English word, not ARAMAIC/HEBREW name. The disciples of the MESSIAH didn't speak English , nor did they know of a person named jesus (English) Iesus (Greek). The MESSIAH is the word of GOD [TORAH] became flesh. John 1:14 My UPC Pastor and friend left UPC and joined a Christian Cult claiming that they had non-HEBREW Apostles and Prophets (false Prophets and Apostles). I cried out to Jesus for direction at night in a dream, Rabbi Yeshua appeared to me and told me I was walking in error and YHVH ADONAI will heal me from AIDS. Rabbi Yeshua told me I am "Born Again" grafted into Israel Romans 11:11-36, Ezekiel 37:1-23. The TORAH is TRUTH Psalms 119:160 Rabbi Yesha taught me Malachi 2:6 Rabbi Yeshua said no one come to the FATHER except through me John 14:6 Rabbi Yeshua is the TORAH became flesh. Rabbi Yeshua told me that I am in the COVENANT and I am to live out the TORAH. I am still waiting for the NEW COVENANT Jeremiah 31:31.
With your last name Solomon you must have Jewish blood/roots/ancestry ❤just dialoguing😮
Huh? Not everyone with a Bible-sounding last name is Jewish.
I am and my surname is Spanish-sounding. I’m Sephardic.
Who is Steven Solomon ? GOD’s Chosen People . Right. / Just dialoguing….Blessings
Afraid of honest conversation???? Yea right. Talk to me bruh
I am glad I left Oneness Pentecostal Theology and Pauline Christianity. Paul never met "Jesus," neither was he one of the 12 disciples. I never knew G-d the FATHER'S name that was given to Moses and the Hebrew Prophets. The TORAH is the WORD OF G-D, not Paul's letters(epistles) to the churches. I was learning Hebrew in 3rd grade many years at 15 years old before I was converted to Oneness Pentecostalism.
Steven, once again, count went to ZERO WHEN I CLICKED UP.
No comments, you tube. LIE
And by the way , you didn’t point out facts .
it didn’t strike a nerve with me, it was freaking hilarious watching you guys trip over the bible
I’ve grew up in the UPCI. Went to the church Corey went to for a couple years, I’m still Pentecostal. The Interview wasn’t, to me, insulting.
What I did notice is a lot of “old time” rules were one of discussed topics. All of the rules you’ve mentioned have all disappeared to my knowledge.
I’ve been exposed to so many other religions and I’ve dove into the Bible and absolutely love open conversations. I do agree with you, people and ministers in the UPCI should not become defensive when people start asking questions.
With all this being said. A lot of the complaints or issues is from human error. No human is perfect. No denomination is perfect. I’ll be the first to admit the UPCI isn’t perfect by any means. However I believe in the truth. And what God has brought to my eyes. And it’s what the oneness preaches and teaches.
God bless. Not wanting to argue. Loved your interview. I believe all Pentecostals should watch it. Because you are right in some people in the church will excommunicate members who leave, and that’s 100% wrong. However, I believe the UPCI has improved leaps and bounds since then.