Dave Silverman "I'm an Atheist (And So Are You); Why I've Changed My Mind on Jewish Atheism"
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- Опубликовано: 11 дек 2013
- David Silverman, President of American Atheists, gave this talk to the Secular Humanist Jewish Circle and FreeThought Arizona in October 2013 in Tucson. Intro by Susan Rubin of SHJC. Silverman's talk begins at • Dave Silverman "I'm an... , and Q&A begins at • Dave Silverman "I'm an...
www.atheists.org
www.secularhumanistjewishcircle.org
www.freethoughtarizona.org
I was never so happy to hear anybody speak. Thank you David Silverman.
Don't let Religion take credit where it is not due. Great presentation.
One problem is that people all over the world, from all cultures, religions, nations have a need, and this is a historical thing, to identify themselves as part of a "group" FIRST, rather than as individuals. I think many of us are held emotionally hostage to cultural, religious and national identifications when this would be a better world if we first came to it as individuals. I am Joe Postove. Oh by the way, my Mother grew up in West Virginia, my grandfather was a religious Jew from Russia, my other grandfather was a communist and so on. But they were first individuals, and those that I knew, I knew them as people not as a group member.
There is a rich tapestry of music, art, literature, and lots more that can give your life great pleasure and meaning. And there is nothing wrong to feel that you want to be part of a clan. But you are you first...everything else should, in my opinion, come after.
Joe Postove IDENTIFICATION is not a bad thing, in and of itself but... When we take that identity simply WRONG, there’s bound to be problems! “Jewww” is simply NOT a race - RACE is not even race. It’s MAKE-BELIEVE !!
I think that an individual identifying as part of a group DOES have dangers - mainly that it can evoke our emotions at times when when we need to be objective. I often catch myself identifying as a woman (I am female), but I think it distorts my thinking too often as I am an individual and don't need to be thinking in male or female terms, but, rather, in What is best for ME. Just because others think a female should do or think in this or that way, doesn't mean I should. Too often we make decisions based on which group we fall under and that often means we are servants to the group (often unconsciously). This makes us traitors to our own nature. It can lead us to hide the unique light or gifts unique only to us. Identifying with a group easily leads us to cheat ourselves.
David Silverman is a good guy. He's a very intelligent man too. I've spoken to him about church bells ringing off the hook. I got them bells completely shut off.
+Ben Johnson Way to enforce your Orthodox Godless intolerance.
+Ben Johnson Lots of communities need stricter noise ordinances. Cops will ticket you for a noisy muffler, but preachers with megaphones can ruin public areas. Free speech is great, but maybe we should set aside areas like the old "bughouse square" in Chicago where people could stand on crates and orate.
*****
That's too bad. If someone smokes cigarettes near me, I move. Intolerant people are obnoxious.
Heywood Yabloome
Only intelligence is a creative force. The Most High is the supreme intelligence. Atheists are anti-intelligence. Most of today's world Jewry are Atheist. Which Atheist in history is the very least idiotic one you can name?
what?
Tough Crowd. I converted orthodox Judaism. I no longer consider myself a jew. I am an atheist. Thanks David for doing the lecture.
Atheists and others who doubt the deity are not tough (in my experience). They care very much about the world.
According to the Torah, you should convert to Adonai, no to a religion. You're the evidence that religion is a lie. Torah teach that true Judaism is a Relationship with Elohim, something that you never had, Devarim 6:4.
@Elmer Fudd factual in your mythology. Find a real book about the history of the Middle East.
@Elmer Fudd the word re-ligion comes from the latin. NEVER appears such word in the Tanakh, and only 1 in the N.T. Torah is about a RELATIONSHIP with elohim chaim, the Living God. Study the Torah, if dont know biblical hebrew, get one biblical diccionary about ancient hebrew. Is more than obvious that you don't know anything about the Holy Scriptures. What you really miss is that long before any religion, before any village, before any society, was a first man and a first woman, created by Elohim, the God of Israel, El Shadai, Creator of the entire universe. The Truth about Him and the universe start over there BEFORE ANY RELIGION WAS INVENTED BY MAN.
@Elmer Fudd When Adam and Chava were created as the first two human, nobody else were there, no Persia, no religion. Torah is my source of revelation and only truth. The concept of One God, elohim el shadai is an eternal truth, before any particle of matter were created. I elect to believe the Torah, no Persian or Hindu beliefs. Is more that just concepts, is relationship with the ONLY LIVING GOD. Sound radical? Well is radical. There's no other beside El Elion, elohim yisroel. Why dont you see the reality? What persians and hindus religions had contribute to those peoples and the world? What jews and israelis had have given to the world in the last 3500 years? Starting from the alphabet- Alef Bet to the computers and cell phone. What is the difference? The real God.
Wow, you've got to love David. Clear, concise, polite and funny.
We'll need more people like him if it's possible to save our world from religion.
You might call yourself "atheist, formerly Jewish" if you want to acknowledge your ties to the traditions.
His point being that ONLY the RELIGION of jewwwism is the “traditions” you have a tie to that can actually be called Jewwwish !!
Thank you so much for this posting and for davids presentation. I have watched it several times and have adopted and studied it for my own life and times. Much love to you all
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Deuteronomy 6:5
@@mauryanthony1961 bullshit
I dont believe it. Shame on you
@@vidyadhar66 Why its for your benefit. You will die and you will meet your creator.Accept the atonement he made for in the form of grace. Separation from the God of creation is DEATH, choose life.
There is an old joke about a man in Ireland who was asked about about his religious affiliation and responded "I'm an atheist." After a pause, he was asked, "But are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?" Friend, if you are an atheist, you are no longer a Catholic or a Protestant- or a Jew. You are an atheist.
+ Victoria that's not a joke it's true.
Hilarious! Thanks for the laugh!
The man has guts.
barbh1 check out my youtube
barbh1 Lol no he's got a brain.
@Vela Suarez
Yes, he has a brain, but he also has guts to put himself on the line (in the crosshairs of bad people) to state reality (that most people violently disagree with).
At the end Dave says that their convention is in Salt Lake City on Easter weekend! Talk about venturing into the belly of the beast!
Maybe the safest place in the world to criticize Judaism, lol.
David looks European of some sort, he's also American. If schizophrenia is defined as hallucinations, delusions, and a deterioration of the personality and I don't fit that definition, then I'm not schizophrenic, and if I'm able to form relationships with others then I'm not autistic, I'm not disabled, I admit that, I'm rare, I'm just different, I'm not a categorical label.
Much respect giving this speech to a hostile audience.
love Silverman!
something you can convert to is not a race, culture, or nationality.
You can convert to a culture and obtain a nationality. But that's true for the race.
indeed. nationality and culture are not even tangible real things.
You use "ethnicity" as a euphemistic equivalent of "race".
You can "convert" to an ethnicity. Each Etnicity defines its own membership and how it is obtained. It is part of the definition of Etnia. Defining Ethnics as genetic belongship is para-scientific, at least in the civilized world (that is, outside USA)
Race ONLY - “culture” and “nationality” are up for grabs and show us that the WHITEST person can be as colored as they are raised to be!
Brave man, excellent lecture !
+Zach Bos He has lots of Chutzpah!
Over the many decades of my life, I've had many Jewish friends. Although they retain the Judean culture, theey were secular &/or. agnostic. I never did 'take to' bagels & lox for breakfast, I enjoy them as a lunch or a snack.
A very interesting vid. Thankful for someone uploading this. This is coming from someone who is biracial in a very weird way. Jewish mum and dad is descended from Dutch and German Nazi party members. Many of the things Silverman said disturbed me but I cannot help but feel he has a point. People should not be defined by heritage. I am proud of my Jewish ancestors. Education and tolerance is key to life in the modern world.
people can choose to define themselves as they see fit.
It's not a race and it's not even biphasic it's a religion. idiot
Judaism is a religion, if you are not religious you can't be a Jew, what is the problem with that ?
I think its more: if you are not religious, you shouldn't self identify as a Jew. Religions are great at warping impressionable minds, some of these people 'think' they've broken free but clearly haven't.
I'm lucky enough to have never been indoctrinated by a religion, the thought that a religion could co-opt / hijack my identity to the point that some of these people do - frightens me.
messianicrogue I wish I had not been one of the indoctrinated ones. I wasted so much of my life wondering what I would do next to please, what turns out to be, a character in a mythological story book. I want to laugh but it is more tragic then funny.
Veronica M mythical story book? lol.. would you like to explain how this fairy tale predicted future events? imbecile...
Predicted what?
Predicted what?
starts @6:30
Andy Anaya thank you
I couldn't stand her saying "umanistic" instead of humanistic over and over
Thank you !
What a great lecture and subsequent interaction. I enjoyed that immensely. Watching humans entrenched behaviors being confronted with reason is always gratifying and frustrating. Their need to belong is so strong that they are, in some respects, Dan Barker's "married bachelors".
It makes so much sense!
Gotta say, I've watched a lot of these kinds events by a lot of different speakers. I'm always annoyed by the question part of them, but I really enjoyed this one. Not sure why, maybe I just got more tolerance against elderly people. I do not know, but liked it a lot. And the presentation itself was interesting as always when it comes to David Silverman.
First question asked made no sense. If you are saying you are not jewish, as you are an athiest. How can you include yourself in with a group that you just claimed you do not belong to ? Truth is is that he has just proved that he has not let go of his programming. Did he not understand anything this guy said?
Jeff Turner Of course that makes NO SENSE... You just don’t want to give up your jewww identity but remain an atheist, which is just not possible - if Atheism is your viewpoint. No matter though... Religion gets to define any word, any way they want to, so have at it... But that is exactly what makes religion such a STOOPID business !!
@@TjamVideoMan you used the right word, 'identity'. The way you identify is a social construct just like gender. You can't tell people how they identify themselves, you can only politely offer your point of view.
@@bobgrinshpon yes yes yes yes!
-- Fascinating.
I think that David is suggesting that the term "Jewish" should be seen in the same way as the term "Viking". The labels (Christian, Jew, Muslim etc) are part of the problem.
Have you ever heard anyone say "Oh I am part Viking"?
Also that there are so many exceptions and double meanings.
Those in the audience that don't get it are still brain-washed by that wonderful religious idea that being part of a certain club makes you oh so special. And, how much extra special are you if you are in god's chosen club.
This is not just inconsiderate, irresponsible and delusional thinking, it is very dangerous thinking.
***** Like the Borg
***** Reruns can be very valuable, especially Star Trek episodes, they could actually be used as educational tools.
***** ruclips.net/video/dWXkBBIaiVc/видео.html
JF_Sebastian check out my youtube
JF_Sebastian
No, most jews in the US are reform jews. That means some are atheist, and they do NOT hold the torah as authoritative about anything. They enjoy identifying as jews which are descendants of Hebrews waay back. That's all! It's a nationality club, nothing more. If you go to the the German Club in your hometown, you may only be a little german and not speak it, you are still welcome. It's a club, and clubs can be based on nothing important. Jews have a special poignancy because of the Holocaust and Israel, but 200 years from now maybe not so much.
David starts his talk @ 6:30.
When reading De L'Esprit by Helvetius I was fascinated by his defence of Fontenelle for being socially and emotionally self-sufficient. Those criticizing Fonetenelle called him anti-social. Helvetius argued against that charge few people had as done as much as Fontenelle to help others by his efforts as head of the Academy of Science. If religious or political people form their identity on shared ideologies, what happens when they go through an epistemological metamorphosis where they consider idealism a flawed form of reasoning and identify with empiricism? They now identify with a way of thinking that does not require sharing beliefs. Resenting having ideologies imposed on them does not make them anti-social. Freedom from things that we may wish to have freedom from: ideologies, second hand smoke, dogs.... does not make someone anti-social. It is someone establishing the right of people to enjoy freedom from the domineering or inconsiderate things people impose on others. They are making society more considerate and tolerant.
Listening to this lecture, it almost seems like Silverman is describing the traditional view of Jewishness as being some sort of categorical imperative label given to descendants of religious Jews (a label from which, of course, due to the categorical nature, there is no escape!).
I really enjoyed this video! I have to admit that I never thought about saying I am an Atheist Jew. It always made me feel a little uncomfortable. I can see that just saying I am an Atheist is all that is needed. Very good video!
Curious. If you do not believe in God, why do you still consider, or not consider yourself Jewish? Do you still celebrate Jewish Holidays/keep traditions etc? Does
your extended family consider themselves
religious? Curious, sorry to bother you.
You just lie to yourself. You dont have idea of the meaning of been Jewish.
Believing in God is not natural. It is a learned behavior. I remember as a child not questioning where life came from but instead feeling a sense of peacefulness because I was a part of life. I didn't ever need an explanation.
Defining terms can clear up a lot of confusion.
Watched all of it
thx ..David....
espect
starts about 6:26
I like Silverman and all of this positions. I like his reasoning. I like his convictions. But I think he could use with a little more rigor - perhaps this will come with time, experience, and wisdom. And he tends to lose his momentum a lot. Keep going Silverman! I'll be following your career closely.
+Paul Gradie Silverman's comparison of entities which are clearly defined as religions with the Jews, who are a multi-faceted, ethno-religious group, is spurious at best. Falafel is Egyptian, not Islamic. Gefilte Fish and Bagels are folk Ashkenazi Jewish - not of or pertaining to Rabbinical Judaism. He himself acknowledges the fact that different Jewish subgroups have their own respective "location specific" cultures, which implies that at the very least he does acknowledge each one of them as an ethnic group in and of itself. This does not undermine the claim that a Jewish people, i.e., ethnic group, does in fact exist. Han Chinese, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, and other peoples also comprise many disparate subgroups who evolved and lived separately for centuries and often speak mutually unintelligible dialects, yet their identity and legitimacy remain unchallenged. Believe it or not, most Jewish groups consistently fostered the teaching of the Hebrew language, intermarried with one another, exchanged ideas with each other, and had more shared cultural characteristics than Silverman notes.
Moreover, notice the absurdity of the argument Silverman presented, namely that since a culture can be abandoned, but Rabbinical Judaism prohibits this, it is therefore not a culture. It is a non sequitur, unless Silverman himself shares the perspective of the Rabbis who framed this injunction. In the past, even peoples who were not classified as ethno-religious, such as the medieval French, were in fact defined by religious adherence; thus, if a Frenchman during that period converted to Islam, he would be ostracized by society, if not subjected to corporal punishment, and cease to be "French". In that respect, religion was not only an integral part of the culture, but, just like the Jews, most peoples were "lied to" through the rallying cry of religion: they were "glued together" and delineated as distinct peoples by their religion. Most of the religious practices, customs, and rituals in erstwhile Christendom have since morphed into secular traditions, which still define its culture today; therefore, Jews who do identify themselves as Jews culturally feel they too have evolved to the point that they view those aspects, often religious, that had previously defined their identity in the same manner as the heirs of Christendom. This is a historical process through which many peoples, including the Jews, went through, yet for some reason Silverman doesn't grant the Jews its benefits. Finally, what with today's paradigm concerning group identity - which is primarily based on common culture, but encompasses more tenuous affinities between persons, including purely political ones - almost any group of people can be recognized as a nation. Why not the Jews then?
I'm not Jewish or religious, or an expert or authority of any kind. But I've know a bunch of Jews and they were all Jewish, whether they were religious or not. It is a culture, or maybe a subculture - or really a group of cultures and subcultures - or I don't care how you want to classify it but I think it's fair to say there's such a thing as Jews.
Finally enough is enough. Judaism is a religion, stop lying to yourself if you really consider your views on God to be in line with atheism. There is no christian or muslim race. There is no christian or muslim culture. Religion is different to each locakity in which it is being practiced, ethiopian jewish cusine is different nyc jewish cuisine; but in reality it is really just ethiopian and nyc food. Thats it.
It's a false analogy. Jews are an ethnoreligious group with some converts but a core Levantine ethnic origin. The fact that Romani music in Spain, Hungary, Iran, and Chicago are all distinct doesn't negate the existence of the Romani ethnicity, and likewise differences between Jewish cuisine in Ethiopia and New York don't negate a Jewish ethnicity.
No matter our background, we each need to choose what traditions we want and hopefully we'll CREATE those ourselves instead of accepting what is passed down to us. I've heard that the Biblical story about gawd creating the earth is an analogy for mankind's ability to create his/her own world. Each of us should do so. We should question every single thing we were told and every habits- or else we are slaves to those things. I struggle often with the Christian idea of what a woman should be and about the self-sacrifice a person should make to others. I hate it consciously, but unconsciously I find myself under this yoke of someone else's ideas...they've become part of my mindset like a computer virus.
This video is now over ten years old, and a lot has happened. I feel that everyone should look at the perspective that fits everyone today: There is no one-way to identify as Jewish, Jews come from many, many different ethnic identities, are genetically diverse (especially today), and that it is A-Okay to identify as someone who is no longer Jewish.
Not all Jews come from the Southern Levant, there have been whole tribes and nations who have converted to being Jewish, and many people have stayed or left whatever Jewish sect they were once a part of. I think this is a healthy place for this topic to end, and to defend man and end bigotry once and for all.
We're all human beings trying to find what's best for us, right?
Another point to be made ... one can be born into a completely different culture/religion and convert to Judaism, thereby becoming a Jew, which apparently from the viewpoint of the religion, is forever thereafter.
Orthodox Jews do not believe in conversion. Most of them will not recognize a converted Jew as a Jew.
Eh, the people who founded Buddhism were not Chinese....but Indian. I have no idea how Silverman does not know this, it's common knowledge.
+Nocturnalux actually it was Nepal, which at the time was 'controlled' (kinda) by China, but not China as we know it....
I don't think who founded Buddhism is really at all relevant. What makes someone Buddhist is that they believe Buddhism's tenets.
There are Chinese Buddhists. This is exactly the point that Silverman is trying to make.. What makes you a Buddhist is your belief in Buddhist tenets, if you no longer hold those beliefs, then you are no longer a Buddhist. What makes you Christian is believing in the Truth and Divinity of Jesus Christ, If you stop believing that, then you are no longer a Christian. The same thing (In theory) applies to being Jewish.
@@Qilue2179 Judaism, for the most part. still considers you jewish even if you don't believe in god. Perhaps some 'fundamentalists' may disagree, but that's been my observation. I think judaism would lose more than half of its membership if belief in god was a requirement.
I don't think it was a clear cut issue. It was a nice debate though, casual, friendly.
It's very clear that he cares a lot about these people.
There's no kind way to tell people they have been wrong all there lives, but this comes pretty close.
I'ts not a race. Its a strong lobby.
Judism and Hebrews are a group of people designated with a certain way of life and customs given by a God of the Bible that as an atheist you don’t believe in, so how can you be defined by something you don’t believe in?
Jews are a group of people that recognize only one religion. You don't have to believe in God to have a Jewish identity. It's defined as being part of the Nation of Israel. (not literal)
@Melvin Melvin I suppose you have no knowledge of Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity. It has nothing to do with "white people". You need to study some more.
Starts at 6:30
@1:21:45 That is a awesome question. I would ask is Israel an apartheid state?
It's a good question but off topic.
It's as if half of the questioners literally didn't listen to the speech
Starts at 6.25
I would love to see David Silverman debate Ben Shapiro. I have a feeling that Ben Shapiro would agree with David Silverman but I am not certain.
"Modern Jewry is Edom" Jewish Enclyopedia (1925).
How hard it is to comprehend? Catholics are no different than Jews (meaning 2 groups practicing their own religion), so Catholicism = Judaism (two religions). Now German Jews, French Jews, Hungarian Jews, Russian Jews, Polish Jews, etc... are the same as Mexican Catholics, United States Catholics, Cuban Catholics, Jamaican Catholics, Canadian Catholics, etc.... and are ethnic groups or nationalities who practice a common religion. European Jews and American (not just USA) Catholics are many ethnic groups and nationalities who are members of two separate religions. Jews practice Judaism, and Catholics practice Catholicism. How hard is that? Both religions include many nationalities as members. Once out and no longer a member you are no longer A Jew or A Catholic. And like Dave said. just because some man made up a rule as to how a Jew becomes a Jew by birth doesn't mean it's GOD LAW, SET IN STONE, ect... By who's authority? Themselves? That is hogwash. Are people that dense to not understand him?
+Janemas I know. Every question I was thinking "what are people not getting!"
+Janemas Silverman's comparison of entities which are clearly defined as religions with the Jews, who are a multi-faceted, ethno-religious group, is spurious at best. Falafel is Egyptian, not Islamic. Gefilte Fish and Bagels are folk Ashkenazi Jewish - not of or pertaining to Rabbinical Judaism. He himself acknowledges the fact that different Jewish subgroups have their own respective "location specific" cultures, which implies that at the very least he does acknowledge each one of them as an ethnic group in and of itself. This does not undermine the claim that a Jewish people, i.e., ethnic group, does in fact exist. Han Chinese, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, and other peoples also comprise many disparate subgroups who evolved and lived separately for centuries and often speak mutually unintelligible dialects, yet their identity and legitimacy remain unchallenged. Believe it or not, most Jewish groups consistently fostered the teaching of the Hebrew language, intermarried with one another, exchanged ideas with each other, and had more shared cultural characteristics than Silverman notes.
Moreover, notice the absurdity of the argument you've cited, namely that since a culture can be abandoned but Judaism prohibits this, it is therefore not a culture. It is a non sequitur, unless Silverman himself shares the perspective of the Rabbis who framed this injunction. In the past, even peoples who were not classified as ethno-religious, such as the medieval French, were in fact defined by religious adherence; thus, if a Frenchman during that period converted to Islam, he would be ostracized by society, if not subjected to corporal punishment, and cease to be "French". In that respect, religion was not only an integral part of the culture, but, just like the Jews, most peoples were "lied to" through the rallying cry of religion: they were "glued together" and delineated as distinct peoples by their religion. Most of the religious practices, customs, and rituals in erstwhile Christendom have since morphed into secular traditions, which still define its culture today; therefore, Jews who do identify themselves as Jews culturally feel they too have evolved to the point that they view those aspects, often religious, that had previously defined their identity in the same manner as the heirs of Christendom. This is a historical process through which many peoples, including the Jews, went through, yet for some reason Silverman doesn't grant the Jews its benefits. Finally, what with today's paradigm concerning group identity - which is primarily based on common culture, but encompasses more tenuous affinities between persons, including purely political ones - almost any group of people can be recognized as a nation. Why not the Jews then?
+kushalaimashkha Religion is an integral part of Roman Catholics. Being a Catholic includes having a religious culture as all religions require. Trying to learn a language based on religious choice doesn't make it your language of birth. A Russian, Ethiopian, Argentine and Sephardic Jew have different cultures, ethnicities and nationalities. The only thing they share is Religion. They don't even share a common language, food, or culture.
+Janemas "Trying to learn a language based on religious choice doesn't make it your language of birth".
If this statement refers to the fact that the different, far-flung Jewish communities preserved the knowledge of the Hebrew language, I would point out the fact that most of them also spoke in Jewish languages, such as Yiddish or Ladino, as their native tongues, as opposed to liturgical languages. This is a cultural marker. Moreover, whether or not it is a "language of birth" does not deny the fact that it is a commonality. As I have previously contended, even religion-based commonalities may transform through a historical process into secular and cultural ones. As the general intellectual and social environments veered towards secularism, the role of religion declined in defining the core identity of society. Thus, Hebrew, which was indeed a liturgical language, became a secular spoken language.
"A Russian, Ethiopian, Argentinian and Sephardic Jew have different cultures, ethnicities and nationalities. The only thing they share is Religion. They don't even share a common language, food, or culture."
That is false. Jews are as much a cultural group as they are a religious congregation, and these two constituents are independent of one another. Specifically, the Ethiopian subgroup was historically very isolated, but it had still retained distinctly Jewish practices. Apart from it, Jews have their share of purely cultural or folk commonalities. Many Jewish communities throughout history fostered the learning of the Hebrew language, intermarried with one another, exchanged ideas with one another, and, in some cases, even splintered off from one another. Most Jewish communities eat Matzos, Sufganiyot, etc., which are distinctive Jewish dishes, and commemorate historical events in Jewish history. Given these facts, it would not be wrong to conclude that much of the "glue" holding Jews together is indeed cultural by nature. Christianity, on the other hand, is not an ethnic group or a nation. It is a universalist, cosmopolitan construct, not an ethno-religious group. It has cultural elements or, rather, it incorporated and assimilated cultural elements on the one hand, and informed and influenced later cultural expressions on the other; nevertheless, it is quite the opposite of the reclusive and insular tribe which is the Jews. Moreover, presuming Russian, Ethiopian, Argentinian and Sephardic Jews indeed have different cultures, ethnicities and nationalities, as you claim, what would be the verdict if they chose to either view themselves as one organic group or simply merge? I ask because this is exactly the case. Jewish atheists admit into their ranks every Jew who so chooses, while in Israel all different Jewish subgroups were thrown into the melting pot which is the Israeli society. Jews observe many traditions - including religious Jews - which are, according to any Rabbi, of a purely "historical" or "cultural" nature, as opposed to being religious injunctions. Such traditions include the holiday of Hanukkah, during which it is customary to play with dreidels, light candles, and eat jelly doughnuts. Naturally, miraculous tales were later appended to the historical accounts of the events which the holiday commemorates, and some of the customs of this holiday were definitely influenced by these tales; however, the overall historical basis for this holiday is soundly grounded in fact. The Jews did rebel against the Greeks and ultimately gained independence. The refugees of that rebellion used to play with dreidels while hiding in caves and other shelters, which was perpetuated as a tradition. This fits perfectly the definition of folklore, i.e., popular, "grassroots" culture. There are many other such traditions, holidays, and customs within the Jewish ethos, some tinged with the imprints of religion, such as stories of miracles, while others wholly separate from religion, such as different days of remembrance - of historical figures, of fallen soldiers, of the victims of the holocaust, etc. A Jewish atheist may choose to observe Hanukkah purely in commemoration of the victory over the Greek conquerors and the ensuing Jewish independence.
Secular Jewish culture is not new. For many years the secular Jews of Europe have observed customs which are purely secular and national by nature; the same can be said for the Jews of Israel. Their kinsmen in Eastern Europe also had a rich and unique culture, encompassing such fields as music, culinary, literature, dance, art, etc., which, though at odds with traditional and reactionary religion, was distinctly "Jewish". This is the evolution of the Jews as a people - an ethno-religious people - and it is absolutely legitimate. Culture and the characteristics of ethnicity are intersubjective by nature; hence, I daresay that if this group of people express their desire to voluntarily cooperate within the framework of customs and attitudes that they base on their common heritage - it is fully legitimate. They chose to base their cultural identity on such customs and attitudes that are either wholesome in and of themselves or such that have been emptied of any religious significance. This is a blessed process. If Jewish atheists profess that they only observe innocuous cultural norms, devoid of harmful religious significance, why does Silverman care? Let them! They do not champion religion. He only subverts their sense of pride, confidence, and cohesion. Is this prudent or responsible if he purportedly does so out of care for them? If this is the identity they chose for themselves, why protest? The prevailing paradigm concerning group identity would endorse their choice. By Silverman's fussy standards one can dismiss the legitimacy of the ethoses of sundry other peoples and nations. Has the very legitimacy of other ethno-religious peoples been so thoroughly and persistently scrutinized as that of the Jewish people? Has the atheist Jawaharlal Nehru, who instituted sweeping secular reforms and was an outspoken critic of region, ever try to delegitimize the group identity of the Sikhs, who are an ethno-religious people, or his own people, the Kashmiri Pandits, for that matter?
+kushalaimashkha Catholics from all over the world share common cultural practices related to religion. Doesn't make them all one ethnic group. And for hundreds of years the leaders learned latin. They didn't teach the average pheasant because they wanted to keep them dumb and not read all the inconsistencies in the bible. Silverman could not have been more clear.
BUDDHISM is definitely a religion, and though there are 3,400 sects with differing views, sometimes theistic, but BUDDHISM is an ATHEIST religion !!
Buddhism is also secular, secular just means not of religion or the church, it's a non-religious religion and that's not logical. If you think I don't follow the morals I'm not a Buddhist, that's a wrong assumption, a Buddhist is someone who follows the teachings of the Buddha, the teachings I follow are no sexual misconduct, no lust, meditation, that everything is empty and doesn't inherently exist, deity yoga (it's not theistic), and not lying unless it's necessary to help others, I don't follow the Buddhist morals, I still smoke and drink and I think avoiding it is just a suggestion in Buddhism, not a command, I eat a small breakfast and then lunch and nothing after that, but I don't take mind-altering drugs, so by following these teachings I'm a Buddhist.
@@charlesfraunhofer7893 good stuff. Thanks for sharing. May I ask where are the Buddhist teachings about smoking, drinking and mind altering substances to be found?
That thing about hurting your family is something I can relate to, it happens all the time within catholic families too. Guilt is there too. Bastards.
I tend to agree with David Silverman. The term "Jewish" is so hard to nail it down to a clear definition. Sometimes it's a religion or religious identity, sometimes it's a culture, sometimes, it's a race or ethnicity, sometimes it's a nationality. It's so amorphous and nebulous. It depends what side the debater wants to play.
I recall Armin Navabi from Atheist Republic going to speak with non-theist and atheist "Jews" in Israel and none of them could agree on what it actually is. The definitions kept shifting.
Here are links to the vids titled "Israeli Atheists Discuss Jewish Identity"
ruclips.net/video/9huLmFjjKtw/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/_yj7xQ8Or2k/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/_yj7xQ8Or2k/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/4xLzSBanE2w/видео.html
Anything you can convert to isn't a race
@@SNORKYMEDIA ....or a gender
I follow Hindnuism in the tradition and philosophy of Vedanta, but I'm still an atheist.. same could be said for my Taoist views as well. Physiochemist Reductionism might be a better term for what atheism has become in the "new atheist" school, in my humble opinion.. as it tends to consider conscious experience as an emergent property of those matters (hehe) and not just reject theism, but basically any non-materialist explanation for origins, evolution, and really any part of science I can think of. Not trying to be condescending, just think this is the true position of most scholarly atheists today...'a' as a prefix usually entails an indifference or lack rather than to be against or antagonistic in the face of something.
From your stupid picture, and ridiculous screen name, I would assume you are some kind of Crowley fan boy. Explanations for consciousness which aren't rooted in science are called dogmas, and come from religions. Perhaps this is why scholars don't consider such "explanations" without evidence. I'm inclined to think that you are only interested in this because your own perspective in life is biased towards a spiritual bent. What gave it away? Maybe the Crowley avatar or screen name? Personally Aleister Crowley was a narcissistic fool. He was either a con man, or delusional like joseph smith (the mormon guy).
If you'd look into Jung's works regarding scientific writers in the 1800s belieiving they could use their own dogma to 'oust' mythology from any respectable place in human thought, and have us all believing it's nothing more than supernatural superstition and superanything, maybe you'd see my perspective. I'm not going to sink to the level you just did in calling me stupid, or a fanboy of Crowley. I'd accept a constructive critique of any works by Crowley you'd like to submit, but just slandering me based on an affiliation, even if it were an affinity is rather cruel. I see no need for the personal insults. I personally don't think consciousness is an 'emergent property', and I'm a dialectical monist, not a dualist. Again, see Advaita Vedanta and Taoist philosophy, then please get back to me with constructive criticisms. Just like you can with Crowley, you can project some loathing you seem to have for him onto me, but I'm not Crowley. Crowley was a bit too disgusting for me to hold him in high regard. Israel Regardie and the traditions of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn are pretty interesting, though. Narcissism isn't morally wrong, to me. That's your value judgment. He was narcissistic, of course. Delusions, as you just referenced as well, are defined within the context of dominant culture. It's not a 'delusion' in the Amazonian shamanic culture to believe in what you would probably call 'supernatural'. Mythology is very much natural and a part of our human history, and I really recommend you read Jung's works if you haven't such as Religion and Myth , the book. Or even the newer published The Red Book. I don't really mind if you're a physicalist and modern scientific perspective holder as far as your world view goes, and I don't think it's any lesser, because if it works for you, and you think the world makes sense through that lens, then it's obviously yours to keep and beneficial. The question is how can you work with other human beings in the great work. How can we collaborate together even though we have different religions (highly valued metaphysical or generally philosophic beliefs). Because if you and I can't even get along alright with a difference in perspective being the culprit, then all is going to be lost. If your desire is for all of humanity to hold the same philosophical views you do, that would actually be narcissistic projection. Again, not an evil thing, but it is what it is. If your perfect object are people around you being converted to your belief system, you're going to be very disillusioned with experience and lash out against people like me, as you just did. Peace be with you.
***** Oh, and just so you're aware, it is known by studying schizophrenics and their families, that there's one very common familial link to schizophrenia within them. It's the group of people who make the mythologies you so contest and detest. Schizotypal people or people with schizotypy. I happen to have schizotypal personality , which means I believe magick is real and such. Schizotypal and schizophrenic people have been the ones with the visions who perpetuate myth through the ages. Myth is powerful and is a human natural experience. Whether you like it or not, science isn't going to push it out of anthropology, philosophy, linguistics, or any other very radical academic field. The anti-theist (or anti metaphysics) folk may be able to effectively do this, but what's funny is it's just breeding a whole new generation of unwitting Thelemites. Disregarding all else, and following what you were meant to do in life is the core tenant of Thelema. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. I'm sure , since you are educated enough to critique Crowley, you have read Crowley's own writings on the meaning of the verse. I think you're conflating an artist's own personality for the end result of his own work, and the effects and meanings of his own works. Do you know how many musicians I'd have to put away for good if I judged them on their own moral character in relation to mine?
Frater Tenc TL;DR
I’m a Jew also and my Torah holds a lamp! The best use I’ve ever found for it.
Mazel tov!
Haha nice!
has he made a golem ?
Nobody believes the Jew Bear is a golem
For those who disagree, Secular Humanistic Judaism offers a meaningful, non-theistic opportunity to celebrate Jewish culture, history and heritage while living by secular values. Visit www.iishj.org for more information!
So, is Secular Humanistic Judaism a non-theistic religion? A reason-based modern offshoot development of theistic Judaism? If so, I can personally agree with this definition. He's not the first on the block with these wrestling thoughts, but I love how he expressed them. Controversy!
2 questions:
1) If a group of people feel an important historically and culturally based commonality with one another which is distinct from their feeling of commonality with the rest of humanity, then is that not a sufficient basis for distinguishing themselves as a people?
2) If one can be persecuted for being a Jew, no matter what one calls one's self, then isn't that a practical basis for a common historical experience and necessity for forming a common cause with others who can be persecuted for being Jews?
I'm an atheist, but can never forget that because of my parents, I would have gone to the nazi ovens no matter how loudly I screamed, "I'm an atheist!"
The argument made at 20:41 concerning the nationality bit is rather silly. Once you accept that the Jews consist of those people who are the descendants of Judeans for all of those years plus incidental converts, then you have the concept of a nationality developing. He then makes the comparison of Christians therefore being able to identify as "Romans" and Buddhists as "Chinese", but the comparison is inapt. (1) Since Christians were dominant in their societies from 300 C.E., they became associated with the leadership and culture of whatever state existed in those regions. Concurrently, Buddhism (which actually should be associated with India - not China), became the dominant religion of a number of different places that were similarly places in which Buddhism was part of the dominant culture and so the people identified more strongly with those states. Conversely, the Jews were minorities in both Christian and Muslim societies who developed an identity in relation to the persecution they experienced and the connection to their historical nationality. (2) Most Christians in the world are also not descendants of the Roman Empire, such as the massive Christian populations in Africa, the Philippines, Germany, Eastern Europe and the former USSR, etc. Conversely, while the majority of Mahayana Buddhists are Chinese, the majority of Theravada and Vajrayana Buddhists are not. In both cases, these were religions of mass conversion, which means that the religion loses its connection to a unique national identity. Since Judaism did not engage in mass conversion after 300 C.E., the national identity is preserved uniquely.
At 23:00, he narrows the entire cultural argument to food items. This is rather silly. There are a number of distinct issues in Jewish culture that are more commonly found across the world. Such things include: high valuation of family, high valuation of real-world involvement, development of literature with introspective characters, critiques of otherness, interest in science and development, etc. We see these across the Jewish world with the ONLY exception of Ethiopian Jews, who are a minority that are only tied to the remainder by religion. Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews are both tied by these common characteristics.
This exchange in the 1947 film "A Gentleman's Agreement" might explain why some hang on to the label.
Professor Fred Lieberman: Millions of people nowadays are religious only in the vaguest sense. I've often wondered why the Jews among them still go on calling themselves Jews. Do you know, Mr. Green?
Phil Green: No, but I'd like to.
Professor Fred Lieberman: Because the world still makes it an advantage not to be one. Thus it becomes a matter of pride to go on calling ourselves Jews.
But today it is a far greater disadvantage to be an atheist so, perhaps, atheists that continue to call themselves Jews are short changing those of us who are bold enough to call ourselves atheists and deal with the consequences.
Non practicing vegetarian here. Raised veg but questioned not eating meat while i was still young. I just keep the word vegetarian around for like culture and stuff.
You're not a vegetarian, a vegetarian is a person who follows a vegetarian diet, which includes nuts, fruits, cereals and vegetables, like me, so even if you eat meat and follow that diet you're a vegetarian.
@@charlesfraunhofer7893 Of course I am not. You have missed it entirely.
@@MagnumInnominandum I didn't miss it, I saw the reality from my senses, and if it's outside your senses it's not reality.
So we're not biblical israel?!
In terms of genetics, Ashkenazi Jews are actually closely related to some Sephardic groups.
Mr. Silverman: "All countries exist for money and power... that why countries exist". One of the stupidest comments I've heard. How does one even start to address such historical ignorance? And this man is the president of American Atheists? Wow. PS) I'm a fellow atheist, just a historically educated one.
God, most of the people asking questions in the audience are pretty thick.
Oh my nothing! Did you seriously just use the g word?
It seems like a lot of the people who replied to him, didn't even listen to what he was saying. They seem to want to retain the "ingroup" status of being Jewish without actually believing all the Woo.
If I ask you if you are Jewish, and you say yes, I'm going to think that you believe in all of the Woo in the old testament, that you Had a mitzvah, that you celebrate Passover and Hanukkah, that is all saying you are Jewish tells me(TBH I don't know all that much about Judaism)
I celebrate Christmas and Easter, they are part of my Heritage, yes, but I am an Atheist, not Christian, I even eat all the traditional foods.
I was raised jewish, but the woo piled up the more I read. Eventually, I suffered 'woo collapse' and became atheist.
If you think that, then you are wrong.
Buddha isn't a god but i consider Buddhism a religion.
All the animals have similar basic functions including intelligences. Humans have some additional higher functions like wisdom, care for other species and environment. These function are part of body as evolution gift to only humans. It's different we are not interested and prefer to be animals only.
Judaism comes from the Greek, that means the 'Faith of the Judeans'. The religion was named after the ethnic group of Judeans. After Judea was destroyed in 135 AD the lines blurred; especially because of the rabbinical liars [Synagogue of Satan]. Read and study your bibles, believe in God [ Ephesian 2:8 ] or else all these arguments are pointless in the end.
Jesus is not God.
I've had several Jewish friends during my long life. The only one of those friends who wasn't an Atheist became a christian for a few years, then de-converted! Although they weren't religious, I could discern some of their cultural identity in subtle ways. I'm convinced that their identity has more to do with the cultures in which they were insinuated for a long time.
Poland became such a haven for Jews since the 12th century that 80% of all Jews were Polish prior to WW2. My mother's parents came from Prussia in the 1800's, so I recognize some vestiges of a common cultural heritage, despite the fact that my grandparents were catholic! My mother could easily have passed for being Jewish in appearance & behavior, and my siblings & I often referred to her as our little Jewish mother!
Although David is mostly correct about secular 'Jews', it's interesting that Jews comprise the most genetically cohesive group anywhere on earth! DNA studies have confirmed that. However, we all must conclude that any of us has so many (>3 X 10^23) ancestors since the time of the Jewish Diaspora that pure Jewish heritage is mostly a myth, and I shouldn't be surprised to have some Jewish ancestors myself! Likewise, most Jews likely have some northern European ancestors as well as other derivations.
There is a cultural component to Jewishness, but it is mostly an incidental factor of population mobility & regional acculturation. Jewish cohesion is an artifact of their religion, and is being diluted to the point of losing relevance in modern times. In some ways, I lament the homogenizing effects of losing cultural identities, but only regard mass secularization as a positive trend!
Wow... Longest. Introduction. Ever.
Dave starts @ 6:30
Iruparazzo Thank you!!
Taking the most hated state in the region as an ally isn't sensible, unless you want to make it and yourself even more hated in the process.
No one in this audience knows how to simply ask a question. Everyone wants to run their mouths instead.
Its a bit like saying, "I am only attracted to, and sleep with, people of my own gender, but I'm not gay, I am a 'reformed heterosexual"
I disagree with Silverman. In my view, it is valid to maintain that Jews do share a common heritage, specifically with regard to culture, which classifies them as an ethnic group. I believe that his analogies to other religions do not fit the context of the subject, and it would be more appropriate to compare the Jews with such ethno-religious groups as Parsis, Yazidis or Sikhs. The Christians are not viewed as ''Romans", because Christianity is a universalist, cosmopolitan construct, and the entity known as "Romans" was not an ethno-religious group. Also, it is noteworthy that, in keeping with a prevalent paradigm at the time, during earlier periods in history, participation in many groups - that is ethnic groups or, rather, "peoples", as they were simply referred to - was often exclusively dependent on religion. So, for example, when more than 500 years ago a group of Christian Georgians was forcibly converted to Islam, they splintered off from the rest of the Georgians and started being identified by themselves and by outsiders as Ajaris - a separate ethnic and cultural group based on religious variance, yet still a distinct ethnic group. In medieval France one would be ostracized or subjected to corporal punishment if he chose to convert to Islam; he would no longer be "French" in the eyes of society as per mores of the time. In that sense, for most of their history, Jews fit the category of an ethnic group quite "cleanly". And, just as other ethnic groups have, the Jews have also evolved to view themselves as an ethnic group and ,later on, a nation, independent of religion. Just as the once-religious customs and holidays of the peoples of Europe morphed into secular and cultural traditions, the Jews of Europe also observed such customs and holidays as devoid of any religious significance, which they regarded as purely cultural manifestations. Silverman does not grant the Jews the benefit of this process. Therefore, I do not accept the claim that Jews shouldn't be recognized as an ethnic group, given that Jews went through the same historical processes of evolution as other peoples and groups. The fact that there are different ethnic subgroups of Jews in existence doesn't strengthen the latter claim. The Greeks, Han Chinese, Georgians, Armenians, and other ethnic groups also comprise entirely different subgroups, which evolved and lived independently of one another for centuries, yet their legitimacy remains unchallenged. Finally, nowadays the prevailing paradigm concerting group identity is culture-based and recognizes as a nation or a people almost any group of people who demonstrate cultural or, even, political coherence, irrespective of other aspects, and however arbitrary or tenuous their association may be. Silverman actually does acknowledge that different groups of Jews have different "location-specific" cultures, yet for him it is enough to undermine the Jewish ethnic identity. For him these cultures are simply not Jewish but, rather, Russian or Ethiopian, etc. In fact, all of these "location specific" cultures share a common denominator which is based on common origins, distinction from host societies, exchange of ideas and intermarriage between Jewish subgroups throughout history, religion and language - which actually can be defined as characteristics of a culture - and was more than enough to classify them as an ethnic group in the past and, given the current paradigm, is all the more so now.
The speaker makes certain assumptions based on religious Judaism, and uses them to disprove secular Judaism. Judaism is indeed not a culture, race or nationality; it is an identity. You can leave it if you want, and you can join it if you want, just by dropping or assuming that identity. David Silberman is indeed not Jewish since he does not choose to identify as one. Others, however, who identify as Jews, are Jews by identity, just like transgender women are female by identity.
Silberman shows that Judaism cannot be a race, since not all Jews belong to the same race, but the same argument can be used to show that it is not a religion, since not all Jews are religious. And if he'll answer that non-religious Jews are not real Jews, why can I not say that non Ashkenazic Jews are not real Jews? Who sets the criteria? The religion? But then you are using your assumption that Judaism is a religion to prove that Judaism is a... religion!
Silberman uses matriliniarchy to show that Judaism is not a race. But why does he accept the matrialinial claim? Only Judaism the religion believes in matrialinarchy, so that claim cannot be used to show that Judaism is a religion, since the secular Jew would oppose that claim, and say that anyone with a Jewish identity is Jewish, regardless of genetics.
His point is that all Jews ARE religious, if someone isn't religious then they aren't a Jew....that's what he said.
Izzy Posen *Silverman
It almost seems you've gotten his name wrong purposefully.
secular Judaism is an oxymoron.
Not reallly
The Godly ORTHDDOX JUDAISM REAL JEWS. BELIEVE THAT IN ORDER TO BE A RECOGNIZED , AS A AUTHANTIC JEW, YOU HAVE TO LIVE THE TORAH, AND PRAYFULLY ACKNOWLEDGE THE GOD CREATED YOU AND THE UNIVERSE. THE MAIN TENENTS OF REAL JUDAISM. WHY WOULD YOU QUALIFY TO BE JEW, IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT GOD CREATED YOU AND ETERNITY. AS THE RABBI SAID NO GOD NO JUDAISM. Real Godly Jews, think, that the Oxymorons , those that claim to be JEWISH , but are ATHEISTS , is a hurtful reflection AGAINST the GODLY ORTHODOX JUDAISM REAL JEWS.
REFERENCE. READ THE USA TODAY NEWSPAPER, APRIL . 1st 1997 . Page A -3 Top of the page major bold headline. A MAJOR LEADING GROUP OF GODLY ORTHODOX JUDAISM JEWS, DECLARED. THAT ONLY ORTHODOX JUDIASM IS JUDAISM. Based on the RABBIS STATEMENT ONLY 12% OF AMERICANS JEWS ARE REAL JEWS.
6:29 *SKIP THE BULLSHIT*
Buddhism originated in India, not China. The first Christians were not Romans, but were persecuted heavily by the Romans. He chose bad examples for the comparison. Jews are an ethnoreligious group just like Shinto Japanese, native aboriginal Americans, Hindu Indians etc.
And also, this guy looks VERY Jewish lol. His own appearance defeated his argument before the presentation even started! He looks absolutely nothing like Slavic Russians or Poles, but rather Levantine.
His incorrect examples aren't relevant, he is just pointing out that Judaism is a religion and nothing else; if he'd said India not China, the point would still stand - as for how he looks....he said he look s nothing like Ethiopian Jews.....are they not Jews?
Yeshayahu ben Pineḥas Cohen He addressed that point quite clearly.
Yeshayahu ben Pineḥas Cohen He didn't give any opinions. His point was that Judaism isn't a nationality. If he looks like someone middle eastern, then he looks like someone from a particular part of the world, another Jew might look different, but they are still a Jew; the only common denominator is the religion.
Yeshayahu ben Pineḥas Cohen He asked a good question, he said "if someone says they don't believe in any god, but they claim NOT to be an atheist....are they an atheist?" The point here is that people can identify as something and be wrong. People "considering" themselves Jews is quite irrelevant. If you are correct (I'll accept your findings) that 95% of Jews are decended from a common Judean Levantine ethnicity - then are the other 5% NOT Jews? Common languages and genetic ties are location and culture based. He clearly demonstrated time and time again that Judaism isn't a nationality (based on dictionary definitions) or a culture (based on the FACT that people who reject the "Jewish culture" are still considered Jews) - so the only thing that unites all Jews is the religion.....unless I'm missing something.
+Yeshayahu ben Pineḥas Cohen so they are just a group of people who's ancestors were from a certain part if the world; that's true for all of us. the only other thing that binds them as a group (according to this wiki page) is Judaism....which is a religion. The point he was making was that if you are an atheist then you are not a jew, many people (clearly Wikipedia included) disagree with that and say you can be an atheist jew.....but logic says "atheist Jew" is an oxymoron....which it is.
Fighting the urge to make a stereotypical joke in the comment section.
1:24:02 that didn't sound good in the slightest. it sounds like a terrible, really terrible opinion when you have a basic understanding of the things the US did with and to other countries to benefit itself in the last 100 years.
Any chance that he will provide hard evidence to back his claims, other than anecdotes, common sense, appeal to majority, and strawman fallacies?
What are you imagining as "hard evidence" in a discussion about definitions and identity ?
I don't know why you want Jews to be a race so badly.
*****
As a teenager I had a jew friend I was a half French/Tunisian. We just wanted to be happy as human beings. The jewish rituals bore him to no end. He would come to my family my mother would make French dishes with pork and he would eat them. Once I told him "But there is pork in it, is it ok that you eat it"?
He answered "I don't know if there is pork in it and I don't want to know. Why are you telling me? Don't tell me."
*****
Well, what I think is, even the idea of being a jew, through matrilineal transmission, is virtual, a belief.
The reality is you get genes from both parents and both define you as a human being.
Through milleniums of genetic mixture, what's left of the jewish race, if it ever existed?
You're a jew if you say so. You're not if you say so. It's all just in our heads.
@@Hodoss "Through milleniums of genetic mixture, what's left of the jewish race, if it ever existed?"
Quite a lot, actually:
www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-jews-and-arabs-share-genetic-link-to-ancient-canaanites-1.8871073 [tldr: all of the major Jewish groups have ≈60%+ Levantine ancestry.]
I'm not particularly keen on sharing journalistic works like this instead of the original articles, but in this case it sums up the main point, albeit rather far down in the page, pretty succinctly. Here's the original article: www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30487-6.pdf)
www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/03/22/the-origin-of-the-ashkenazi-jews-in-early-medieval-europe/
This is a blog post by a pretty well known population geneticist (Razib Khan- not Cohen, in case you have any doubts ;) ) which basically summarizes the image that has emerged from decades of pop. gen. studies.
I strongly disagree. I think that you are interesting but talking about Judaism in a vacuum and not compared to history
My religion defines you Semites as jews, but I found out the normal definition is the jews is a religion, I'm not the race nor the religion, I'm an Australian and a Luciferian, people will believe the lie that Australian is a personality or a culture, when Australian is a national origin, all it means is that I'm from Australia, I see what the above atheist means by definitions.
What eventually happened to David Silverman is one reason I don't want to be labeled as atheist.
What happened?
Juwdaism is not a culture or race etc...
Not based on the definition of jew but based on the definitions of culture or race etc...
+Kait Sith So called Jews are highly conflicted Ashkenazi pseudo-Semites.
See Yiddish is the Yiddish word for Jewish
Wow - I never knew that. I thought yiddish was just a language. But in German, it means Jewish. Thanks!
Truth hurts.
a gay reformed atheist guy who identifies as a jew. wow
Funny to see Dave Silverman using almost all of my talking points that I used when debating him when he was a deluded, Judaism loyalist. It only took him nine years to figure out how wrong he was and is now facing the same accusations that he used to defame others.
The truths in religion is a placebo for our fear of death and an imagined afterlife. See my poem below.
Truth Called in Sick
Truth called in sick today;
‘Doc,’ he cried, ‘No one’s true any more;
My advocates play God;
My adversaries play the devil;
My paramours play both; my bastards say
I sing my story;
Polls and media swore
I wore a mask, I had cosmetic surgery;
God, am I in limbo!'
‘You’re manic depressed,’
Take 2 of these when stressed,’ jibed the Doc
Prescribing a placebo!
Lawrence Chew
10 November 2016
There is one point to be considered. The Torah is not the only and main point of union of all the Jews in the world. Jerusalem is the point of union. Ha shana havaa v'Ierushalaim, Ierushalaim shel zaav, etc. Israel is the point of union, not the Torah.
He covered the israel thing, it is just a marketing scam, that it is. they chose the holy land by minor historical value. If they had voted differently in 1897, alaska would be the holy land, or ethiopia. and those poor inuits of alaska would have had that same destiny and destruction that palestinian muslims had. If you say that what they did is justified, then by your logic the native americans, indians should take america back with violence and it is justified too.
Juho Joru It is not a matter of logic, but a fact. The Jewish community is getting more secular every day, and the reality is that the Torah is not anymore the common point of union. The comparison with native Americans is non sense, because they didn't start as a religion. Don't try to escape from my point and trying to get into the political aspect. I just said that the point of union of the Jewish people is Jerusalem, or Israel, not the religious Torah. Period. The political part is a different subject.
Juho Joru live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/what-does-it-mean-to-be-jewish-in-america/524ad83e78c90a6efd00002c
He forgets how Judaism isn't the same as the Jewish PEOPLE/nation. The Hebrew word "עם" literally being a national identity for our people. We have common Jewish languages, common culture (both for religious AND secular Jews), common history, and a common homeland. These are all indicators of a national identity, albeit a uniquely strange one, with the nearest parallel probably being Gypsies, and that's a misleading parallel at that.
He forgets that the Torah, for us atheist Jews, is our people's cultural folklore. It's storytelling, and an important one. Just as the Norwegians have their own folklore, we have ours. And often Jews over-emphasize the Torah. We have other Jewish books that were just as influential on our people, like Spinoza - the Jewish man who became the precursor to the western Enlightenment, the Jewish Haskalah Enlightenment, and Jewish atheism. This was centuries ago!
He forgets how the so-called confounding issues of atheistic thinking integral to our culture, and the religion associated to it, is not confounding; it's simply a wonderfully confusing paradox for identity exploration til the end of time. Paradoxes are the fingerprint of our people, in so many ways. Just because, for instance, Talmudic study has atheistic thinking at its core e.g. 'pilpul' and 'havruta', doesn't mean atheist Jews can't extract one of the core aspects of our culture out of the religious context. That's one of many examples.
+Kevin Mard 'Loaded question' is an understatement. Don't know what's your agenda buddy but look, the word you're looking for is "and", not "or". It's a maternal line, & even in the paternal DNA sequence it's been proven repeatedly that "white" Ashkenazi Jews and "brown" Sephardi Jews are strongly ethnically linked to the Levant (Israel / Canaan / etc). Not that this shit matters!
And yeh, sure there's religious converts - but you misunderstand, it's equally a process of gaining "citizenship" (nearest word I could think of) into the Jewish nation. And not many convert, it's a ball-ache. My point was the cultural evidence to how & why the Jews are a People/nation (עם) and how athiest Jewish identity is not only real, it's prominent, & has been for a very, very long time.
@noorsulaimani Nothing I wrote is tribalist. I was describing the nature of the identity of our people. You don't even know me, I'm an internationalist and enthusiastically explore cultures that are not my own.
the Bible says that man was made in the image of God to manage the earth and everything in it. for this reason we know for a fact that only man can reason and resolve, no other animal can. this is God science
if that's the case, then you've done a shitty job managing all this shit.
***** I've been reading the Bible for the past thirty eight years...the Vulgate, King James and the New Living Bible
when man was sinless, He knew what to do, God gave Adam/Eve their job descriptions...rule over the earth and be fruitful and multiply
after the sin, man was separated from God, this is why Jesus came, to remove the sin, to reconcile us to God
Red See Yeah, deforestation, oil spills and other pollutants, wildlife going extinct rapidly, etc etc... yeah you're doing a great job.
Red See I love hearing the Jesus myth. That story in itself is one large contradiction. God gave man Sin, condemned man, then sends his son down (with Jesus being God himself) some years later on a suicide mission to absolve the same Sin that he gave to man himself. So in summary, God got himself killed after being born from a virgin to forgive man of the same sin he gave.
If you've read the bible, you should know the huge number of contradictions found within it. There are even contradictions in passages right next to each other!
I've seen dogs with better reasoning faculties than some people! It seem the height of arrogance to assume that only humans can reason & resolve challenges. But of course we can always pretend mental superiority while remaining humble if we simply support that notion with an imaginary authority that can't be challenged! Any species that over-populates & destroys its ecosystem cannot be considered mentally or morally superior.
Silly
Why?
Jew means " From the Tribe of Judah" . There are 12 tribes of Israel . The 10 tribes were dissolved among the other nations, but still under the covenant. Don't worry God is keeping a track over everyone. When Christ returns , a lot of people will be surprised and dumbfounded.
Silverman might turn around like Apostle Paul did. Blind one day , Converted to Christianity few days later. Lord works in mysterious ways.
+Herman Halici Yes. Judaism comes from the Greek, that means the 'Faith of the Judeans'. The religion was named after the ethnic group of Judeans. After Judea was destroyed in 135 AD the lines blurred; especially because of the rabbinical liars [Synagogue of Satan]. Read and study your bibles, believe in God [ Ephesian 2:8 ] or else all these arguments are pointless in the end.
Terraconensis 10 lost tribes, which had the National greatness promise to Joseph was lost in the history, (to us) The tribe of Joseph ( Ephraim and Manasseh) was to be the greatest nation this world had ever seen. Look at history and start selecting. ?? United States is Ephraim and Britain Manasseh gave us the physical greatness. The tribe of Judah gave the spiritual greatness through Jesus Christ.The word of God has been fulfilled. But not the way you think.
Captain Herman check out my youtube
I really wanted to like this, but it's so intellectually lazy I turned it off after twenty wasted minutes. -atheist Ashkenazi two generations removed from Judaism
Mr. Silverman: "If you're going to say that Judaism is a culture... then if someone outside that culture is still a Jew, then it can't be a culture". Again, false. This would mean that NO culture can exist. For example, is there a Greek culture? Some Greeks do not share all the same exact qualities. Some Greeks might not like Greek yogurt, for example. So, according to Silverman, there is no Greek culture if you can show that any Greeks don't like Greek yogurt (or any other part of the culture of Greece). Faulty reasoning.
There is a Jewish culture. Even if not every single Jew believes or participates in every single aspect of this culture, there still is a Jewish culture. Jews shjare DNA, have a shared history, and a shared fate. Always have, and always will.
There is saying: "Me think the lady protest too much". Mr. Silverman, me thinks you protest too much. Are you just tired of having the Jew baggage? Would like to get rid of it, so you are no longer a Jew? Easier? Do you believe your atheist message will be better received if you rid yourself of all links to your your "Judeaness"? Don't fool yourself Mr. Silverman... your desire to not be a Jew drives your reasoning. You are not convincing anyone with a better historical background.