Be safe this holiday season! It doesn't matter how many flight hours you have, we all make mistakes. If you want to learn about the mistakes that killed 4 generations on a Thanksgiving trip, watch this video next 👉ruclips.net/video/DFdtL1utL6M/видео.html
Hello, do you ever take requests to debrief an accident? We had a family friend crash and he lost his life with one passenger. It was in a helicopter (Bell 407) in Riverside County California March 25th 2023. We still haven’t heard anything from the NTSB. If you can’t help it’s ok.. Thanks Greg
"You never know how you will react to a stressful situation. " Truer words were never spoken. I've seen strong, stalwart military brothers and sisters scream or cry, and those who seem meek stand strong and take control when the shit hits the fan. Neither condition is a thing to reward or to reprimand. It is just the human condition. You fall back to your training and do the best you can. It's great to have a smart military man like Hoover making these videos. It gives excellent perspective.
Very true. I have been in stressful situations a couple of times. When jumping out of an airplane my first time, I tried to grab for things that were not there. Made no sense but people under extreme stress just don't always do the most logical thing.
@davidhorizon8401 lol I can see you throwing your arms around leaving the aircraft. I bet you regained your cool once out the door though. I did a dummy once too but in the opposite. A scud hit on the hill beside me, in a fuel truck. I put on my protective mask and FELL ASLEEP. Not smart, you know. I about had a heart attack when our operations sergeant banged on the door.
Few things make me lose respect for someone faster than when they brag about "what they would have done" in an emergency situation. I immediately know they are a fool.
Having given many flight reviews in light to medium twins over the years, I’ve come to realize the only thing keeping many of these pilots alive is a perfectly functioning airplane.
Or at least one that doesn't fail at the worst possible moment! I have flown the twin Comanche; single engine performance is not great. Gimme an Aztec!
My flight instructor once told me that there are few twins that fly well with a single engine running but practicing emergencies, flying by the book and practice were key factors to walk away from an accident, with time I learned he was correct
Students of light twins should be taught that it’s possible losing an engine in a light twin is more survivable if you pull the power back on the remaining engine and treat it as an engine failure of a single engine airplane. Over 40 years ago, flying a twin Beech 18 on floats in Alaska, that was our procedure. It was understood that the remaining engine would simply provide transportation to the accident site.
@@jmax8692 yeah… not making anything up. Ask any seasoned MEI and they’ll tell you the same. Basically the convo is “you need a bunch of work before I sign you off”
On my son's 3rd cross country solo flight, the plane experienced electrical issues (no transponder, no radio, or flaps), fortunately, he was able to get a cell phone signal. He had never practiced a "flap less" landing, but with the help of the controller in the tower that day that was familiar with this type of landing, he was able to get safely on the ground. As a result of this issue, the training school will now implement "flap less" training in their curriculum.
Well done to your son first off in handling the situation. Here in the UK you practice those types of landings before going solo. I can’t believe it’s not mandatory over there!
@@amputeeadventures5562it’s not spelled out but it falls under “emergency operations” in the aeronautical experience requirements. This was a failure of the instructor.
I can't be the only complete non pilot watching these out of pure interest. In a world of nonstop social media garbage I come here to relax by actually getting intellectually stimulated which seems backwards a bit. I love how he treats every case with the utmost respect.
As a flight instructor with thousands of hours of flight time my advice to someone who is a relatively low time pilot is to fly something that is simple to fly and has a lot less problems. A Piper archer comes to mind. I personally owned and flew a Cherokee 140 that was full IFR and I put a lot of time on it both VFR and IFR, also used it for training many students. Flying twins requires one to be constantly alert and also spend much time practicing single engine landings and go-arounds. IFR is the same. When I was flying everyday any time the weather was IFR I would go up and practice ILS and VOR landings, if you intend to use your IFR rating you must constantly fly in weather till it is second nature.
You just said a mouthful. Just because you have the rating does not mean you are safe enough to use it. Practice, practice, practice. Flying is a perishable skill.
I would think any major issue should cause a Pilot to want to land at the quickest, most efficient runway available. You can't always know if the problem is localized to just one area of the plane or an issue/failure that may spread to other related systems connected to the initial problem spot. So what, there was still one engine running, what if the issue was just the start of an electrical failure where insulation on wires failed and was causing a SPREADING electrical wire melt. Tragic he didn't take the first available runway. If it turned out to be no big deal, at least you got a early landing time, the alternative results in sad stories like this.
@@robrobets7813 I personally would have declared an emergency. But, twins low to the ground with an engine out are never a "so what" condition. Twins can barely keep altitude in clean configuration with an engine out, even with the prop feathered and the gear and flaps up. With an engine out which you can't feather, the plane will be descending in the clean configuration, even more so with the landing gear down. In this case, the pilot probably had one chance to land, as the plane was going to descend until it hit the ground.
@@RuFi0000000 That is possible. With any loss of power or engine issues on a twin, you really need to declare an emergency and have any runway or even taxiway available. Pilots tend to be way too reluctant to declare an emergency when they have issues like these. It is somewhat likely here that since he had landing gear issues he wanted to get the gear down early, but that is the wrong decision until you are on a final to the runway. If he was having gear motor pump electrical issues, once you release the gear and pump it down manually, it is usually a one way street. At that point, flying on a single engine, the plane will just keep descending until it hits the ground, especially with a prop that is not feathered on the dead engine.
Hoover, I'm 78 years old and I know for a fact that as us old timers get into our 60's, 70's, 80's, situational awareness is a real problem. I've had this problem for years. The least amount of stress can cause, what I call CRS (can't remember shit) and is the reason I don't drive as often as I use to. It is dangerous. And as we age, we don't want to lose our freedoms and we don't talk about it or mention it and act like everything is just peachy keen. And it's not. The man got overloaded and didn't know what to do to get out of it. Everything snowballed on him in less than a minute and he failed to maintain VMC. I know from my own experience some task are confusing and when the wife says something, we just blow it off or get mad and the scene continues to repeat itself on and on until one day, all the holes in the cheese (as you like to say) line up. I guess I said all that to say this; "there's a reason airlines retire pilots in their 60's (if they still do). Sincere condolences to family, loved ones and friends. May they only have fond memories of their loved ones.
Being over 60 is definitely a red flag to stop taking risk like flying a small plane. You're not as mentally sharp to handle problems in stressful situations. Your mental and physical abilities have diminished.
@@rfink222 or riding motorcycles, said the 74 year old who gave up flying...and motorcycle riding...a number of years ago due to my cardiac issues. Sigh. 😞
@@Jimmer-Space88 It has been debunked only with those who are very different. The majority are absolutely less aware after sixty and should not be flying anything difficult. Just watch them at a cash register paying for stuff with a card and something goes wrong.
I love how you always, in literally every video, show respect to the deceased. Yeah someone may have made a mistake, but that person was someone's daughter/mother/father/son. The fact that they made a mistake doesn't make the loss any easier for their family. Too many RUclipsrs are so concentrated on placing blame that they forget about families that are utterly devastated by these tragedies.
The families and friends also do not have to watch the videos and probably should not because it could create more "what if" questions in their minds--which can be torture. We all have had (maybe not deadly) situations where we or someone else made a bad mistake and we later "what if" ourselves into depression or whatever. If anything like this happened to someone I knew, I would steer clear. I have enough trouble with seeing awful things that happened to complete strangers. Again, Hoover, great job.
How would you feel if someone from your family was on that plane. Anyone can make a mistake but, multiple mistakes that should not be made, ending in fatalities, is not acceptable. That is what training is for. Too many of these accidents are caused by pilots with inadequate training, making multiple mistakes when things go wrong. Joe should have had his plane checked out for the electrical problem before ever leaving the first stop. He should have had memory cards installed in his Garmin units. He should have listened to the controller. He should been trained sufficiently in his plane to deal with the problems he was having. It's not like the plane broke up in flight. The cold hard truth in aviation is; mistakes kill. Train so you don't make them.
I mean he crashed in some family's backyard, it's not ok to put your ego above the safety of others. It's a blessing he wasn't able to make that 360 back into a dense neighborhood. And a miracle he didn't hurt anyone on the ground.
Not a pilot, but aviation enthusiast. Your great videos show us how serious a hobby flying can be, and to be a good pilot it isn’t really a hobby but a full-time job.
I am not a pilot either but I do have the interest in aviation and all that goes with it. Your comment here is spot on! PD is a great place to hear all of the truth and relevant circumstances of aviation accidents. My prayers to the family for their loss.
I am a long time RC model flyer and am amazed how similar full scale flying is to RC model flying from a basic takeoff, flying, and landing hazards viewpoint. Then throw in mechanical, weather, navigation, avoiding mid-airs, and mental and physical health/aging problems....
Thanks for the comprehensive de-brief. I owned this very PA30 1987-89, flew mostly IFR all over eastern US about 500 hours. Got my ATP in it at INT. Coincidently, had an alternator go off-line once or twice and a landing gear motor failure requiring a manual extension. All in all, a great aircraft though. I now live about 10 miles from the crash site.
I worked as a line service guy in Winston when this happened. Horrible day at work for sure, and only amplified by the fact that I lost my brother a few months prior in a motorcycle accident. Now I fly a private jet that is based out of there. Fly safe friends!! Stay current !!
If you don’t get three green landing gear lights on most pipers, the first thing to check is the panel light dimmer. If the lights are dimmed for night, then they will appear off in daylight.
Retired airline pilot here. Wow, I didn't know you couldn't feather below 800rpm. There are many instances where the engine could misbehave like this. The poor fellow didn't have a chance without raising the gear, which is hard to do when you are landing. Awful design.
As an MEI and DPE on the PA-30, I advocate that in the event of a partial engine failure/not making normal power the pilot feather the prop, shut the suspect engine down, declare an emergency, and perform a single-engine landing as soon as practicable. My recommendation applies to piston as well as turbine twins. We practice single-engine approaches; that's what we are trained to do. Once you wander off into the non-trained zone of aviation, you are taking a big risk. Also, it appears he had owned the airplane 6 years and yet only had 155 hours in type, averaging 26 hours a year which is woefully inadequate to maintain currency -- especially if you're old. For you multiengine pilots out there, fly weekly, practice single-engine ops often with a competent instructor in the right seat, and have that instructor throw you curveballs occasionally to keep your skills sharp.
You are correct, however In the real world, most pilots hesitate to shut down a misbehaving engine unless they know for sure it ain't coming back. It's just a bad design, and why modern airplanes don't act this way.
I would go even further and say if you don't fly your twin that often, and you are getting into your 60's where your reflexes and sharpness will be fading, switch to a single engine airplane. There is also a counter rotating prop conversion kit to eliminate the critical engine, which would make it more controllable in an engine out situation if the previously critical engine failed.
Flying a Twin is more dangerous for the average pilot due to lack of training for loss of an engine. If you don't do everything right, you will lose control and crash. It's a common occurrence unfortunately. Low and slow in a Twin with an engine failure is a bad spot to be in. It's nice to have the second engine for redundancy but the truth is most pilots flying light twins are ill equipped to handle loss of power at critical stages of flight. Former multi engine instructor and airline pilot retired.
My father-in-law was a missionary pilot with several thousand hours flying heliocouriers in the jungles of Ecuador and Peru. His comment about twins was "Twice as much to go wrong."
Kind of new to all this... It seems you and others here are implying that a single engine plane is often safer than a twin? Is that right? What happens in a single when that engine goes out?
@@deandeck I am not ME rated but as I understand in a twin its basically just more work and multitasking that needs to be done to manage an engine failure. You have to be on your A game. An engine failure in a twin results in asymmetric thrust and lot of drag on one side. So you have to counteract the yaw with opposite rudder and feathering the prop to minimize the drag. However twins do not fly that great on one engine and if you do not execute the correct actions promptly and the plane gets below the minimum controllable airspeed it will basically go into a roll and dive which is nearly impossible to recover from. Difference in a single engine is if the engine quits its basically becomes a glider and is pretty benign. You just need to find somewhere to put it down. Long as you maintain best glide speed its relatively easy to keep it under control all the way to the ground.
The only thing I can guess is that he wanted runway 33 due to it being longer, maybe to come in a little faster than normal due to control issues at lower airspeed. I'm also guessing that he was having a difficult time turning left, which is why he requested a right 360 in order to line up with the longer runway 33 after rollout of the turn.
I'm surprised you didn't talk more about runway 33. To me it sounds like he had it pre loaded in his GPS or was more familiar with it. He seemed pretty obsessed with 33 from the get go.
I have no idea why he was so insistent on landing on runway 33. Unfortunately, the investigation didn’t provide any further details on the flight due to the lack of data from the Garmin devices on board. My guess is he just wanted a longer runway. If you look at the two approaches that he flew into Kentucky he was overshooting final on both of the approaches so perhaps there’s more to the story.
I can only speculate that in his mind a longer runway meant less to worry about. It sounded like he was already task saturated, and a longer runway can be thought of as allowing you more time to stabilize your approach and deal with one distraction at a time. I wonder if age is a contributing factor, because as you get older your reaction time decreases, and if you are not flying a lot landings are usually the first skill to deteriorate. My $.02, happy to be wrong.
I flew until I realized I could no longer afford to fly, pay the bills and take care of my family. Something had to give and I knew that unless I got repetitive and quality time in all sorts of conditions I would become a menace not just to myself but others in the sky and on the ground. I’m still interested in aviation and love this channel. Tragic stories aside, you learn lessons that may be applicable elsewhere. Stay safe.
There's been a few debriefs that were wrenching, but somehow, for some reason, this one hits harder than most. Maybe it's because of his experience, or maybe his training, or maybe just the circumstances, or maybe all of these. It slams home the point that vigilance and concentration are ever required when in the cockpit. Condolences to the family and friends for this tragic loss. Good one, Hoov, thanks.
My dad is a retired surgeon in Sioux Falls, SD. His partner, Dr. Vaughn Meyer, tragically, crashed with his wife returning home after Christmas with family. Our hearts truly go out to his family, as my brother and I think about it so often-any happy moment with our family could be the last. His remaining partner, Dr. Breit, crash-landed his plane in a corn field, but since everyone was ok, that had a very different tone around it (like, “oopsy!”). My dad says he loves flying commercial.
Being an air traffic controller is tough, but what must be tougher is being one at a small airport. People of all ages, abilities, and states of health are counting on you, and maybe only you.
He seemed to have his mind "locked on" Runway 33. Perhaps he may have been better off when instructed to approach Runway 04 he requested 33 immediately. For some reason Hoover I've got something in the back of my mind that says there is more to this tragic story than meets the eye. Thanks for the video, I know you produce them partly so that other pilots don't make the same mistakes.
This channel hits so many boxes for me. I grew up watching Discovery and Your channle reminds me of a more in depths serious version of the show Mayday
The St. Louis Downtown Airport is in Sauget, IL. The city of St. Louis is entirely within the state of Missouri, across the river. Apologies for being a bit pedantic, but I've spent some time in that area, including getting lost in East St. Louis, which is not a recommended touristy activity.
I knew a guy who lived in St. Louis for a time. My brother and I flew a Beech Bonanza out to visit him in the mid-'90s. While there, this mutual friend told us about East St. Louis, and had similar feelings about it as you. So, I chuckled at reading your comment.
I flew out of STL Downtown many times. All the sports charter flights come in there because it’s simply close to downtown. The area wasn’t that bad until Parks College of Aeronautical Technology closed down in nearby Cahokia. It is still a nice airport though
This is so tragic and heartbreaking. Hoover, you are always so respectful to the families when you make these types of videos. It seems to me like Joe got behind the airplane at some point and stayed that way until the end. One would think there was some kind of dialogue taking place too between Joe and his wife as well, especially when he kept getting the runway number confused. Hindsight is always 20/20, but after the issue with the first landing, it probably would have been a good time to get the credit card out and drive the rest of the way.
Thanks so much for your videos. They are always informative and helpful to this private pilot and I appreciate how you make them interesting, educational and respectful.
One thing I have noticed is that the pilots and controllers all say "four" for the runway, whereas my training in Canada has always referred to it as "zero-four". I think it would be more difficult to confuse "zero four" with "three four".
@v1rotait23 it's like the old story where the instructor asks the student have you set it to the right tank. Instructor meant "correct" tank (which was the port tank) and the student interpreted the starboard tank.
Its terrible. When you go through some of these accidents it actually makes me so sad and upset. I think what comes out of all of them is how quickly things go wrong because you don't focus on keeping the aircraft flying! Two wonderful people taken away too early. My heart goes out to their family & friends.
I worked as a CFII in a small airport in Pennsylvania for awhile when I got out of the Marine Corps. One day I was assigned to give a pilot a Biennial Flight Review. I had flown with this man several times. Usually when things were slow we would jump in his twin engine Beech Baron and head to a Chinese restaurant in Wilkes-Barre airport. When I went out with him to the plane, I saw that he had rented one of the FBO"s trainers. I balked at signing him off in a single engine plane when he owned a twin and I explained to him that a lot of twin problems are due to pilots not keeping up on emergency single engine operational performance. He had my boss get someone else and that caused bad blood between us. Over ten years later I met this man at a school function for my daughter, and his grand daughter was a student there also. A long story short, he told me that he and his wife were on a joy ride to the Jersey shore, lost an engine, and almost crashed because he was so far behind the airplane as it was coming down. He did get it on the ground but he said that all he could think of was me and what I said about flying a twin. He said his wife would not fly with him ever again after that. He sold his plane.
As a highly active private pilot living at a large sky park, we continuously experience the same type of local tragedies occurring from a lack of pilot proficiency. Even worse when a pilot takes the easy way out during flight reviews to find an "easy" instructor to sign him off, when this is the time to identify lacking skills, break bad habits and focus on retraining. My state experiences more GA related fatalities than the other 49. This offers several unique training opportunities for pilots to avoid an early demise. Unfortunately, far too many people shirk the hard statistics to become part of the death toll. As experienced local pilots who have watched countless others repeat the same unforgiving mistakes, we can easily spot the next victims far in advance with a high degree of accuracy. Its difficult to watch someone with a large ego become complacent and kill himself, several family members and friends, when it could easily have been avoided. I think videos like this, and people like you sharing their experiences with others, are what all responsible pilots review to add to their knowledge and as a stern reminder. The plane I rented during my solo flight decades ago, wore an interesting placard on the panel that read, " Dont do anything stupid". Those are words to live by.
@@ihateemael As long as he was competent in the aircraft he was flying, the instructor was following the rules. When my CFII expired I got a BFR like everyone else. I took it in a single engine plane. I am Multi-engine, Instrument and Sea plane rated but I do not have to have a Biennial Flight Review in each one.
@@ihateemael You would be surprised at how many instrument rated pilots have never, ever flown PIC in actual instrument conditions. How can the FAA not require at least an hour in the clag? I don't own a Twin or a seaplane and when I wanted to rent one, insurance required a check out in the plane that entailed a refresher on emergency maneuvers. Sometimes it seems like you are taking the check ride again. If you own your own Twin, you never get that and bad habits accumulate.
He wasn't confused about which runway to land on - he just wanted to land on 33 for whatever reason and would read that back to the tower in hopes they would just say ok. It's just strange he insisted on 33 when 4 was right there - just get the plane on the ground in that situation geez.
I attribute some fault to the controller. From the moment the pilot mentioned engine trouble the appropriate response would be "Cleared to land, any runway."
@@dianaray1470 Pilots do call the shots. As soon as the pilot declares an emergency, they own the airport. That's their call. Many other cases where they can overrule ATC instructions for their safety. Anything that puts their plane in danger because the controller missed something, for example.
I’ve had three engine failures in my flying career that began in 1966. Two were in multi engine aircraft that ended with on airport landings. One was in a single engine airplane that ended in an off airport landing. Fortunately these engine failures were not on takeoff!
The landing gear problem is not as described. The PA30 has an electric gear system. The motor turns a Jack screw which allows a sleeve to travel forward and back. The sleeve is connected to the push-pull cables that extend and retract the gear. Emergency gear extension requires a disconnection of the sleeve with the Jack screw. This is done by pulling on the disconnect handle which completely removes the mechanical sleeve rider. The gear should fall and lock but if help is needed there’s a small handle that fits into one of two brackets attached to the gear’s cross bar. Long story short, if you disconnect the gear motor via emergency extension, you have to put the plane on jacks to manually link the sleeve rider to the Jack screw. You cannot just run the motor until they cross paths. The gear absolutely does not “pump” down. There is no hydraulic pump on the twin Comanche. This is not an inexpensive aircraft to maintain. I ran a single pilot 135 with my PA30C turbo twin Comanche with a Robertson STOL kit. Annuals were easily $8-10 thousand dollars chasing down old airframe problems. So this aircraft sounds like it had many issues. Not unusual for a poorly maintained 60’s airframe.
Seems to me that he couldn’t get 33 out of his mind. Combined with the engine and landing gear issues, he just seemed to come under some mild duress or major anxiety or mild panic.
My condolences to their families and loved ones. It is very important to feature tragedies like these as it just highlights how anyone can become overwhelmed and confused and forget to follow the correct procedures or make poor decisions under stress. May they both rest in peace.
There were probably more holes in the Swiss cheese than we know about. Then he wanted to make a right 360 into the bad engine at low altitude. That maneuver wouldn’t have worked either. Very sad story and thanks for sharing.
You should take a trip! But on a large commercial jetliner, which will be operated by multiple professional pilots (not hobbyists). I do all the time. What I absolutely _will not_ do is get in a private plane flown by a hobbyist. Or any plane flown by a single pilot (professional or not) for the matter of that.
Yes, a sad one. We lost a good instructor at my local airport due to engine failure on takeoff. We had problems with light twins in the mountains the twenty years I was in New Mexico. When low, some pilots there treated it like a single engine airplane and used the good engine to help with the forced landing.
So true. And the pilot in this Twin Comanche only had approx 160 hrs TT in this twin over the 6 years that he owned it. Thats only averaging 26 hours per year or 2 hours per month. I wouldn’t think thats really enough to be well trained and proficient. Even though he had over 1,400 hrs total time, frequent flying and training in his current make and model is mostly what matters.
I'm not a pilot. A pilot friend, now deceased, once told me he preferred single engine aircraft because in two engine aircraft, if one engine fails, the other engine will take you to your crash destination. Do pilots on here understand what he meant? Unfortunately, my pilot friend passed away before he could explain this to me.
It's ironic isn't it? As far as the machine goes, they are safer. Even if it cannot climb or maintain level flight on one engine, it will still have a lower descent rate than no engine. The pilots are the weak point. Engine trouble in a light twin is a very demanding situation and you need to be on your game to handle it properly, and close to the ground you need to react quickly. Many of the crashes result from pilots overestimating the single engine performance and not treating it as an emergency. The "we're OK" in this incident was his biggest mistake. They were not OK.
Yep this is why the cirrus with single engine and parachute has become so popular even with $1million price. We need twins with a parachute. The veloce 600 experimental is only twin I know of that has parachute option.
Forgot to mention also that simply having two engines doubles the chance of an engine failure. The chance of a dual failure is less than the chance of losing the only engine on a single engine plane, but losing one engine on a twin is equivalent to losing half the power of a single engine plane in addition to suddenly having asymmetric thrust and drag which makes it fly wonky.
Excellent debrief. However if the critical factor was engine failure in a twin, the plastic contamination was not the ultimate cause. Lack of single engine proficiency would be the cause as he was obviously rusty as to how to deal with a twin's engine failure. A light twin can be much more dangerous than a single in engine failure scenarios if you do not have the protocol drilled into deep memory so the actions are rapid and automatic. So the failure in my view is not enough training and practice of single engine failure procedure. Furthermore, from the ADS-B data it appears his judgement was severely compromised. He requested a right 360 as he was missing final turn for 33. But then he makes left turn before the crash. You only make turns into the live engine, because if you attempt to turn towards the dead side, you may not be able to roll out of that turn even above VMC. With one engine out there should only have been one turn direction, and this points again to lack of single engine out procedure/understanding. If you own a light twin, you must do single engine practice and training often and make sure it is drilled deep into automatic memory - would be the lesson from this tragedy in my view.
This was tough to watch. Identify, verify, fix or feather. All sounds easy, but not knowing/accepting that an engine needs to be shutdown is the tricky part it seems. Thought provoking video. May they rest in peace. Very sad.
I'm always amazed at the ages of the planes in these videos. I mean, if you put me in a 60 year old automobile today I'd be afraid. Is flying planes this old fairly common?
Maybe if the pilot had declared an emergency when he realized he had engine trouble, this sad tragedy could’ve been prevented. I once declared an emergency back in 1976. I was a private pilot and right after takeoff had mechanical problems and immediately ATC was right there. I was just 20 years old. Thankfully everything turned out well.
Indeed. This pilot's _total_ hours are what a professional airline pilot logs in maybe two years. On the same type. He had 155 hours on type. He looks like a kind gentleman, and still there is no way I'd get on a plane being solo-flown by somebody with essentially 10 weeks of experience operating it. Godspeed him and his wife, and condolences to his family and friends.
Well that is very sad!!! And it shows how even small mistakes and disorientation can have such a huge impact on a day for family and friends…. My heart goes out to the family members of them two!!
I have a private pilots license (not current). My brother in law is a great pilot who flew this plane for his family business. On long trips he preferred to run the wing tank dry before switching to the other tank and began the primer start routine mid-flight. I was with him on one of these occasions--made my sister freak out as it felt like the plane hit the breaks when the engines quit (at night). He was able to fire up both engines and we still laugh about it today.
My daughter, who just started her flight training, watch these videos regularly. It instills a sense of humility and awareness to realities that will occur at some point and test your abilities.
This is complacency, Joe did not prioritize getting on the ground once he had a problem. He should have declared a Mayday and landed ASAP. That is the lesson learned in this case.
Seems like a great guy my guess is he didn’t understand the gravity of the situation, didn’t want to spook his wife, or was unprepared and unfamiliar with a twin that’s lost an engine. The fact he was an instructor is mind boggling. Excellent review; RIP.
ABS plastic...I cannot tell you how many times I have seen fuel line fittings with nylon tape on the threads. I dont know if it presents as ABS, but I would'nt be suprised. Nicley done Hoover. 🦅
I love your channel and have learned so much about being a pilot. Never piloted a plane before but I’ve realized how incredibly arrogant some of them are. You would think you would relentlessly study your craft to a point of obsessiveness. After all you only have 1 life. But I’ve realized many on your videos are cool with doing the bare minimum and seeing what happens. That’s so insane to me but I see it on your videos time and time again. Thanks for all you do and sharing your knowledge with us. It is greatly appreciated. I’ve realized that not only would I ever attempt to be a pilot but I’m never getting on a plane again. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze.
I totally agree - where are the safety and instructional obsessives?!? He should’ve declared. These pilots treat ATC like they’re “the man”, obfuscating situations for the sake of pride or I don’t know what. This pattern keeps repeating so it bears mentioning.
How many people do you know that drive cars, but know nothing about them?! This didn't sound to be arrogance on the pilots part as much as him being low, slow and near the ground when everyting hit the fan. Landing a complex aircraft is labor intensive and easy to be overwhelmed. And trust me, flying in General Aviation is safer by orders of magnatude, then driving a car...🦅
My wife and I been married 34 years 6 grown kids 6 grandkids now,I have been a truck driver 28 years.We both agreed at the start she doesn’t go with me at all never has bc of our family(children)..My condolences to this family.
Another excellent debrief. As the 50% of non pilots here, I know basically what feathering is but hoped Hoover would spend an xtra minute or so with explaining and a diagram. Also as non pilot I just can’t imagine flying a 1960’s anything.
I am 52, yoa nurse from Kansas, I'm not a pilot. I watch your videos all the time. I don't want to fly again unless you're the pilot. But seriously, I will never fly a small plane flown by the owner or renter.
The fact that this happened on the way there somehow makes it that much worse. The perceived pressure to arrive for a get-together could have affected this pilot's decision-making process throughout
@@Jimmer-Space88 "Get-there-itis" is a problem that potentially bedevils most pilots from time to time. The fact that he did not want to have his landing gear issue checked at his unplanned stop in KY indicates that this may have played a role. Notice I wrote "played a role", not that is was the cause.
@ get thereitis is a made up term and not a verified condition. So, he was already at his destination in clear blue skies and perfect weather. No applicability to this. You need to stop regurgitating shit you watch on the Internet without understanding it.
As an old aviator ,keep up the good work,I believe you will make difference in the long run,, I hope all the young ones digest your your thoughts and comments ..stay safe cheers Den in NZ
Great Debrief. Having engine problems would be very distracting because you would have the tendency to have that thought to problem solve. Sad that he was not able to compensate and focus on flying the aircraft and follow ATC instructions. Definitely an unfortunate outcome for them and their family. Hopefully this will serve as a teaching aid for all pilots so they can avoid the same tragedy.
I believe he said he had owned this aircraft for six years….. yet had only 155 hrs flight time in it. It seems to me to be very low amount of hours over the time period. This frequently crops up in crashes like this. Flying is a hobby that needs constant practice and retraining…… at least that is one of my takes from watching this channel. So sad to see so many people losing their lives like this.
Another good presentation. I think your comments about his gear issue in KY were insightful. Seems like that and maybe some other stuff perhaps even beyond the engine issue were distracting Joe that he was losing focus on the task at hand.
No ones talking about the fact that plane ran fine from IL until he got gas in KY ( added fuel dislodged ABS?) As to 10:41 VMC issue, the Piper would fly on one, particularly with light load and coming in for landing ( descending).
There are several filters between the fuel tanks and the engine. Something is very strange about a piece of plastic causing too much fuel to get into the engine - but I have not read the report as to why. I'm guessing Hoover simplified the explanation for the wider YT audience.
I'm from back in the day when accident-event sequences were known as "links in a chain." I'm still getting used to the Swiss cheese model, which I'll admit is a better representation of how an accident can occur. I fear this accident comes down to a lack of training: the PIC wasn't proficient in engine-out procedures. I remember an old joke from the early days of twin-engine flight: "When you lose one engine, the other will allow you to fly to the crash site." There was some truth to this, as early light twins were underpowered, and an engine-out event was basically a long glide downward - as long as you kept the a/c flying. "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate," no?
Twin engine planes can become a nightmare when there are mechanical issues. This is why you need to do yearly training in them and specifically, you need to get training on what to do with an engine out situation. It needs to be muscle memory. Thousands of hours in a twin when all goes well is great. You also need lots of training on engine out situations. This is why I feel single engine are often safer than twins, as weird as that seems.
There are pilots who would agree with you on the safety of twins vs singles. Of course, it depends on the mission and the type of aircraft. Turbine engines rarely (I'd bet) fail compared to combustion engines. Also worth considering, if I was making regular trips over expanses of water, I'd likely want a twin. Otherwise, as a GA pilot who is a land lubber, I have no interest in twins!
Be safe this holiday season! It doesn't matter how many flight hours you have, we all make mistakes.
If you want to learn about the mistakes that killed 4 generations on a Thanksgiving trip, watch this video next 👉ruclips.net/video/DFdtL1utL6M/видео.html
Hello, do you ever take requests to debrief an accident? We had a family friend crash and he lost his life with one passenger. It was in a helicopter (Bell 407) in Riverside County California March 25th 2023. We still haven’t heard anything from the NTSB. If you can’t help it’s ok.. Thanks
Greg
Did you just describe the twin Comanche as a complex aircraft? C'mon bro😅
You are a Hoover, that does not suck...That is weird.
Are you planing on doing a video on Seuk Kim? He's the animal rescue pilot that crashed on Nov 24th.
Hoover, I hope you see this- you should have your thyroid checked. ❤
"You never know how you will react to a stressful situation. " Truer words were never spoken. I've seen strong, stalwart military brothers and sisters scream or cry, and those who seem meek stand strong and take control when the shit hits the fan. Neither condition is a thing to reward or to reprimand. It is just the human condition. You fall back to your training and do the best you can. It's great to have a smart military man like Hoover making these videos. It gives excellent perspective.
Well said
First time we got shot at this, right to training and execution of our plan. You get better. But man the first time is a shit show haha
Very true. I have been in stressful situations a couple of times. When jumping out of an airplane my first time, I tried to grab for things that were not there. Made no sense but people under extreme stress just don't always do the most logical thing.
@davidhorizon8401 lol I can see you throwing your arms around leaving the aircraft. I bet you regained your cool once out the door though. I did a dummy once too but in the opposite. A scud hit on the hill beside me, in a fuel truck. I put on my protective mask and FELL ASLEEP. Not smart, you know. I about had a heart attack when our operations sergeant banged on the door.
Few things make me lose respect for someone faster than when they brag about "what they would have done" in an emergency situation. I immediately know they are a fool.
Having given many flight reviews in light to medium twins over the years, I’ve come to realize the only thing keeping many of these pilots alive is a perfectly functioning airplane.
Or at least one that doesn't fail at the worst possible moment! I have flown the twin Comanche; single engine performance is not great. Gimme an Aztec!
My flight instructor once told me that there are few twins that fly well with a single engine running but practicing emergencies, flying by the book and practice were key factors to walk away from an accident, with time I learned he was correct
Students of light twins should be taught that it’s possible losing an engine in a light twin is more survivable if you pull the power back on the remaining engine and treat it as an engine failure of a single engine airplane. Over 40 years ago, flying a twin Beech 18 on floats in Alaska, that was our procedure. It was understood that the remaining engine would simply provide transportation to the accident site.
@@jmax8692 The pilot in this accident was a flight instructor?
@@jmax8692 yeah… not making anything up. Ask any seasoned MEI and they’ll tell you the same. Basically the convo is “you need a bunch of work before I sign you off”
On my son's 3rd cross country solo flight, the plane experienced electrical issues (no transponder, no radio, or flaps), fortunately, he was able to get a cell phone signal. He had never practiced a "flap less" landing, but with the help of the controller in the tower that day that was familiar with this type of landing, he was able to get safely on the ground. As a result of this issue, the training school will now implement "flap less" training in their curriculum.
Well done to your son first off in handling the situation. Here in the UK you practice those types of landings before going solo. I can’t believe it’s not mandatory over there!
@@amputeeadventures5562it’s not spelled out but it falls under “emergency operations” in the aeronautical experience requirements. This was a failure of the instructor.
fake account....whatever
Should get your son a back-up comm for Christmas
Bout time
I can't be the only complete non pilot watching these out of pure interest. In a world of nonstop social media garbage I come here to relax by actually getting intellectually stimulated which seems backwards a bit. I love how he treats every case with the utmost respect.
Yep, it is “refreshing” to hear these kind of stories, in a way that educates and tells you more about the people involved!
Nope, you're not. +1 here. 😉
Count me in that group, please.
Same on all counts
Yep I’m a nurse but luv this channel and he presents the info that even non pilots like myself can understand thank you so much!
As a flight instructor with thousands of hours of flight time my advice to someone who is a relatively low time pilot is to fly something that is simple to fly and has a lot less problems. A Piper archer comes to mind. I personally owned and flew a Cherokee 140 that was full IFR and I put a lot of time on it both VFR and IFR, also used it for training many students. Flying twins requires one to be constantly alert and also spend much time practicing single engine landings and go-arounds. IFR is the same. When I was flying everyday any time the weather was IFR I would go up and practice ILS and VOR landings, if you intend to use your IFR rating you must constantly fly in weather till it is second nature.
For real. It's why I'm hesitating to get my IFR, as I know if I can't continually practice it, it's easy to lose that skillset.
Say. That's really interesting.
You just said a mouthful. Just because you have the rating does not mean you are safe enough to use it. Practice, practice, practice. Flying is a perishable skill.
ugh
xplane can help with ifr/garmin learning too
I appreciate how respectful you always are to the parties involved and their families.
Well, he is telling their stories on a monetized RUclips channel without their permission.
@@scalzmoney I don't think permission is needed in this case. The report and information are publicly available.
So you are more interested in words, than reality.
@@scalzmoneybe nice or go away. Your mama would be ashamed of you.
"This channel is for entertainment purposes only"
6:52 "We're OK..." Engine trouble in a light twin is always an emergency. They were not OK.
I would think any major issue should cause a Pilot to want to land at the quickest, most efficient runway available. You can't always know if the problem is localized to just one area of the plane or an issue/failure that may spread to other related systems connected to the initial problem spot.
So what, there was still one engine running, what if the issue was just the start of an electrical failure where insulation on wires failed and was causing a SPREADING electrical wire melt.
Tragic he didn't take the first available runway. If it turned out to be no big deal, at least you got a early landing time, the alternative results in sad stories like this.
@@robrobets7813 I personally would have declared an emergency. But, twins low to the ground with an engine out are never a "so what" condition.
Twins can barely keep altitude in clean configuration with an engine out, even with the prop feathered and the gear and flaps up. With an engine out which you can't feather, the plane will be descending in the clean configuration, even more so with the landing gear down.
In this case, the pilot probably had one chance to land, as the plane was going to descend until it hit the ground.
“The family that flys together dies together”
Ben Kaigly
I think he tried to play it cool since his beloved was in the plane with him.
@@RuFi0000000 That is possible. With any loss of power or engine issues on a twin, you really need to declare an emergency and have any runway or even taxiway available.
Pilots tend to be way too reluctant to declare an emergency when they have issues like these.
It is somewhat likely here that since he had landing gear issues he wanted to get the gear down early, but that is the wrong decision until you are on a final to the runway.
If he was having gear motor pump electrical issues, once you release the gear and pump it down manually, it is usually a one way street.
At that point, flying on a single engine, the plane will just keep descending until it hits the ground, especially with a prop that is not feathered on the dead engine.
I received my private in 1991 and do not fly anymore but still have an aviation interest. Your channel the one I enjoy most. Thanks for your efforts!
Hoover, I'm 78 years old and I know for a fact that as us old timers get into our 60's, 70's, 80's, situational awareness is a real problem. I've had this problem for years. The least amount of stress can cause, what I call CRS (can't remember shit) and is the reason I don't drive as often as I use to. It is dangerous. And as we age, we don't want to lose our freedoms and we don't talk about it or mention it and act like everything is just peachy keen. And it's not. The man got overloaded and didn't know what to do to get out of it. Everything snowballed on him in less than a minute and he failed to maintain VMC. I know from my own experience some task are confusing and when the wife says something, we just blow it off or get mad and the scene continues to repeat itself on and on until one day, all the holes in the cheese (as you like to say) line up. I guess I said all that to say this; "there's a reason airlines retire pilots in their 60's (if they still do). Sincere condolences to family, loved ones and friends. May they only have fond memories of their loved ones.
Being over 60 is definitely a red flag to stop taking risk like flying a small plane. You're not as mentally sharp to handle problems in stressful situations. Your mental and physical abilities have diminished.
@@rfink222 or riding motorcycles, said the 74 year old who gave up flying...and motorcycle riding...a number of years ago due to my cardiac issues. Sigh. 😞
@@rfink222 bullshit. This has been debunked to many times.
@@Jimmer-Space88 Way to argue with actual experience. Rude.
@@Jimmer-Space88 It has been debunked only with those who are very different. The majority are absolutely less aware after sixty and should not be flying anything difficult. Just watch them at a cash register paying for stuff with a card and something goes wrong.
I love how you always, in literally every video, show respect to the deceased. Yeah someone may have made a mistake, but that person was someone's daughter/mother/father/son. The fact that they made a mistake doesn't make the loss any easier for their family.
Too many RUclipsrs are so concentrated on placing blame that they forget about families that are utterly devastated by these tragedies.
Moreover, the ultimate show of respect is to share the story and prevent a similar crash. Hopefully the families understand this.
The families and friends also do not have to watch the videos and probably should not because it could create more "what if" questions in their minds--which can be torture. We all have had (maybe not deadly) situations where we or someone else made a bad mistake and we later "what if" ourselves into depression or whatever. If anything like this happened to someone I knew, I would steer clear. I have enough trouble with seeing awful things that happened to complete strangers. Again, Hoover, great job.
How would you feel if someone from your family was on that plane. Anyone can make a mistake but, multiple mistakes that should not be made, ending in fatalities, is not acceptable. That is what training is for. Too many of these accidents are caused by pilots with inadequate training, making multiple mistakes when things go wrong. Joe should have had his plane checked out for the electrical problem before ever leaving the first stop. He should have had memory cards installed in his Garmin units. He should have listened to the controller. He should been trained sufficiently in his plane to deal with the problems he was having. It's not like the plane broke up in flight. The cold hard truth in aviation is; mistakes kill. Train so you don't make them.
I completely blame them
I mean he crashed in some family's backyard, it's not ok to put your ego above the safety of others. It's a blessing he wasn't able to make that 360 back into a dense neighborhood. And a miracle he didn't hurt anyone on the ground.
Not a pilot, but aviation enthusiast. Your great videos show us how serious a hobby flying can be, and to be a good pilot it isn’t really a hobby but a full-time job.
It’s not “can be” it just out right serious
I am not a pilot either but I do have the interest in aviation and all that goes with it. Your comment here is spot on! PD is a great place to hear all of the truth and relevant circumstances of aviation accidents. My prayers to the family for their loss.
Spot on !! I’m shocked at what I see on this channel
And others , only if pilot was like Hoover !! Or Kate for that matter . Details ,details details
Seems like most that are doing it probably should not be.
I am a long time RC model flyer and am amazed how similar full scale flying is to RC model flying from a basic takeoff, flying, and landing hazards viewpoint. Then throw in mechanical, weather, navigation, avoiding mid-airs, and mental and physical health/aging problems....
Thanks for the comprehensive de-brief. I owned this very PA30 1987-89, flew mostly IFR all over eastern US about 500 hours. Got my ATP in it at INT. Coincidently, had an alternator go off-line once or twice and a landing gear motor failure requiring a manual extension. All in all, a great aircraft though. I now live about 10 miles from the crash site.
Well that hits close to home. Ouch.
Whoa
Wow
it did not allow him to feather failed engine prop.
How hard is a manual extension for landing gear? Can a pilot do it sitting down while flying?
Hoover, your neutrality in regards to your breakdowns are simply the best. Thank you.
Oh my…how sad! My heart goes out to their family, friends and business partners. May they Rest in Peace.
Retired CFI etc. Appreciate the accuracy, completeness and sensitivity you put into your work. I look forward to every episode. Thank you.
You know Hoover is on to something when my son comes to me and discusses a Pilot Debrief story we watched separately. And we both learned something!
I worked as a line service guy in Winston when this happened. Horrible day at work for sure, and only amplified by the fact that I lost my brother a few months prior in a motorcycle accident. Now I fly a private jet that is based out of there. Fly safe friends!! Stay current !!
If you don’t get three green landing gear lights on most pipers, the first thing to check is the panel light dimmer. If the lights are dimmed for night, then they will appear off in daylight.
Of course, unfortunately his landing gear issues were moot.
@@phillipray6490 We don’t know that. In any case, I’m just trying to inform future Piper pilots.
I wasn’t being critical.
Retired airline pilot here. Wow, I didn't know you couldn't feather below 800rpm. There are many instances where the engine could misbehave like this. The poor fellow didn't have a chance without raising the gear, which is hard to do when you are landing. Awful design.
Twin Commanche has always been known as a design with a lot of problems and a higher-than-normal accident rate. Very unforgiving airplane.
As an MEI and DPE on the PA-30, I advocate that in the event of a partial engine failure/not making normal power the pilot feather the prop, shut the suspect engine down, declare an emergency, and perform a single-engine landing as soon as practicable. My recommendation applies to piston as well as turbine twins. We practice single-engine approaches; that's what we are trained to do. Once you wander off into the non-trained zone of aviation, you are taking a big risk. Also, it appears he had owned the airplane 6 years and yet only had 155 hours in type, averaging 26 hours a year which is woefully inadequate to maintain currency -- especially if you're old. For you multiengine pilots out there, fly weekly, practice single-engine ops often with a competent instructor in the right seat, and have that instructor throw you curveballs occasionally to keep your skills sharp.
...and some of older multi- pilots know when to quit while we're ahead.
You are correct, however In the real world, most pilots hesitate to shut down a misbehaving engine unless they know for sure it ain't coming back. It's just a bad design, and why modern airplanes don't act this way.
I would go even further and say if you don't fly your twin that often, and you are getting into your 60's where your reflexes and sharpness will be fading, switch to a single engine airplane. There is also a counter rotating prop conversion kit to eliminate the critical engine, which would make it more controllable in an engine out situation if the previously critical engine failed.
@@redbaron6805 This was my thought as well.
One of the best and most useful comments on this page.
Flying a Twin is more dangerous for the average pilot due to lack of training for loss of an engine. If you don't do everything right, you will lose control and crash. It's a common occurrence unfortunately. Low and slow in a Twin with an engine failure is a bad spot to be in. It's nice to have the second engine for redundancy but the truth is most pilots flying light twins are ill equipped to handle loss of power at critical stages of flight. Former multi engine instructor and airline pilot retired.
My father-in-law was a missionary pilot with several thousand hours flying heliocouriers in the jungles of Ecuador and Peru. His comment about twins was "Twice as much to go wrong."
Moreover, the PA-30’s comparatively high Vmc is well-known.
Kind of new to all this... It seems you and others here are implying that a single engine plane is often safer than a twin? Is that right? What happens in a single when that engine goes out?
Not much question what must be done!@@deandeck
@@deandeck I am not ME rated but as I understand in a twin its basically just more work and multitasking that needs to be done to manage an engine failure. You have to be on your A game. An engine failure in a twin results in asymmetric thrust and lot of drag on one side. So you have to counteract the yaw with opposite rudder and feathering the prop to minimize the drag. However twins do not fly that great on one engine and if you do not execute the correct actions promptly and the plane gets below the minimum controllable airspeed it will basically go into a roll and dive which is nearly impossible to recover from. Difference in a single engine is if the engine quits its basically becomes a glider and is pretty benign. You just need to find somewhere to put it down. Long as you maintain best glide speed its relatively easy to keep it under control all the way to the ground.
The only thing I can guess is that he wanted runway 33 due to it being longer, maybe to come in a little faster than normal due to control issues at lower airspeed. I'm also guessing that he was having a difficult time turning left, which is why he requested a right 360 in order to line up with the longer runway 33 after rollout of the turn.
I'm surprised you didn't talk more about runway 33. To me it sounds like he had it pre loaded in his GPS or was more familiar with it. He seemed pretty obsessed with 33 from the get go.
Agreed… because if you at the approach to 4 vs 33 it looks as if it would be easier to land on RW 4
I have no idea why he was so insistent on landing on runway 33. Unfortunately, the investigation didn’t provide any further details on the flight due to the lack of data from the Garmin devices on board.
My guess is he just wanted a longer runway. If you look at the two approaches that he flew into Kentucky he was overshooting final on both of the approaches so perhaps there’s more to the story.
I think him being dismissive of the issue in Kentucky was very telling.
I think he was reluctant to do a sharp left turn, probably due to the failing engine. He did it as wide as he could and he overshoot RW33.
I can only speculate that in his mind a longer runway meant less to worry about. It sounded like he was already task saturated, and a longer runway can be thought of as allowing you more time to stabilize your approach and deal with one distraction at a time. I wonder if age is a contributing factor, because as you get older your reaction time decreases, and if you are not flying a lot landings are usually the first skill to deteriorate. My $.02, happy to be wrong.
I wait for these videos. Not because of the loss, but because of the value you provide to prevent more loss.
💯
I flew until I realized I could no longer afford to fly, pay the bills and take care of my family. Something had to give and I knew that unless I got repetitive and quality time in all sorts of conditions I would become a menace not just to myself but others in the sky and on the ground. I’m still interested in aviation and love this channel. Tragic stories aside, you learn lessons that may be applicable elsewhere. Stay safe.
There's been a few debriefs that were wrenching, but somehow, for some reason, this one hits harder than most. Maybe it's because of his experience, or maybe his training, or maybe just the circumstances, or maybe all of these. It slams home the point that vigilance and concentration are ever required when in the cockpit. Condolences to the family and friends for this tragic loss. Good one, Hoov, thanks.
My dad is a retired surgeon in Sioux Falls, SD. His partner, Dr. Vaughn Meyer, tragically, crashed with his wife returning home after Christmas with family. Our hearts truly go out to his family, as my brother and I think about it so often-any happy moment with our family could be the last. His remaining partner, Dr. Breit, crash-landed his plane in a corn field, but since everyone was ok, that had a very different tone around it (like, “oopsy!”). My dad says he loves flying commercial.
So sorry for your loss. There is a reason they call these planes "doctor killers".
Being an air traffic controller is tough, but what must be tougher is being one at a small airport. People of all ages, abilities, and states of health are counting on you, and maybe only you.
I just wanted to say "Good luck, we are all counting on you."
And too many pilots don't know of or accept the help that's available on the ground 🫤
@@jackshittleand don't call me Shirly😂
As always, a message with resect to the family.
Humble and yet factual.
Thank you
He seemed to have his mind "locked on" Runway 33. Perhaps he may have been better off when instructed to approach Runway 04 he requested 33 immediately. For some reason Hoover I've got something in the back of my mind that says there is more to this tragic story than meets the eye. Thanks for the video, I know you produce them partly so that other pilots don't make the same mistakes.
Joe had an off day, a complex aircraft, and a corner-case mechanical failure. The only thing easily avoided in advance was the complex aircraft.
Sounds like he got bad gas in Kentucky
This channel hits so many boxes for me. I grew up watching Discovery and Your channle reminds me of a more in depths serious version of the show Mayday
The St. Louis Downtown Airport is in Sauget, IL. The city of St. Louis is entirely within the state of Missouri, across the river. Apologies for being a bit pedantic, but I've spent some time in that area, including getting lost in East St. Louis, which is not a recommended touristy activity.
I grew up in E. St. Louis. I’m white and I had a great childhood there. My family left there in ‘75. I wouldn’t go there at high noon nowadays.
I knew a guy who lived in St. Louis for a time. My brother and I flew a Beech Bonanza out to visit him in the mid-'90s. While there, this mutual friend told us about East St. Louis, and had similar feelings about it as you. So, I chuckled at reading your comment.
I flew out of STL Downtown many times. All the sports charter flights come in there because it’s simply close to downtown. The area wasn’t that bad until Parks College of Aeronautical Technology closed down in nearby Cahokia. It is still a nice airport though
It's still called the St. Louis Downtown Airport
@@chrisatkins7959 I left there in '82. Took a wrong turn once and was pulled over by a cop and told I'd better turn around. Haven't been back since.
Thanks!
This is so tragic and heartbreaking. Hoover, you are always so respectful to the families when you make these types of videos. It seems to me like Joe got behind the airplane at some point and stayed that way until the end. One would think there was some kind of dialogue taking place too between Joe and his wife as well, especially when he kept getting the runway number confused. Hindsight is always 20/20, but after the issue with the first landing, it probably would have been a good time to get the credit card out and drive the rest of the way.
Thanks so much for your videos. They are always informative and helpful to this private pilot and I appreciate how you make them interesting, educational and respectful.
One thing I have noticed is that the pilots and controllers all say "four" for the runway, whereas my training in Canada has always referred to it as "zero-four". I think it would be more difficult to confuse "zero four" with "three four".
"zero four" is also the common military way as well.
Same in the UK.
As in most countries.
"Zero Four" down here in New Zealand for any runways less than "One Zero"
@v1rotait23 it's like the old story where the instructor asks the student have you set it to the right tank. Instructor meant "correct" tank (which was the port tank) and the student interpreted the starboard tank.
Its terrible. When you go through some of these accidents it actually makes me so sad and upset. I think what comes out of all of them is how quickly things go wrong because you don't focus on keeping the aircraft flying! Two wonderful people taken away too early. My heart goes out to their family & friends.
I worked as a CFII in a small airport in Pennsylvania for awhile when I got out of the Marine Corps. One day I was assigned to give a pilot a Biennial Flight Review. I had flown with this man several times. Usually when things were slow we would jump in his twin engine Beech Baron and head to a Chinese restaurant in Wilkes-Barre airport. When I went out with him to the plane, I saw that he had rented one of the FBO"s trainers. I balked at signing him off in a single engine plane when he owned a twin and I explained to him that a lot of twin problems are due to pilots not keeping up on emergency single engine operational performance. He had my boss get someone else and that caused bad blood between us. Over ten years later I met this man at a school function for my daughter, and his grand daughter was a student there also. A long story short, he told me that he and his wife were on a joy ride to the Jersey shore, lost an engine, and almost crashed because he was so far behind the airplane as it was coming down. He did get it on the ground but he said that all he could think of was me and what I said about flying a twin. He said his wife would not fly with him ever again after that. He sold his plane.
what about the "instructor" who signed him off?
As a highly active private pilot living at a large sky park, we continuously experience the same type of local tragedies occurring from a lack of pilot proficiency. Even worse when a pilot takes the easy way out during flight reviews to find an "easy" instructor to sign him off, when this is the time to identify lacking skills, break bad habits and focus on retraining. My state experiences more GA related fatalities than the other 49. This offers several unique training opportunities for pilots to avoid an early demise. Unfortunately, far too many people shirk the hard statistics to become part of the death toll. As experienced local pilots who have watched countless others repeat the same unforgiving mistakes, we can easily spot the next victims far in advance with a high degree of accuracy. Its difficult to watch someone with a large ego become complacent and kill himself, several family members and friends, when it could easily have been avoided. I think videos like this, and people like you sharing their experiences with others, are what all responsible pilots review to add to their knowledge and as a stern reminder. The plane I rented during my solo flight decades ago, wore an interesting placard on the panel that read, " Dont do anything stupid". Those are words to live by.
@@ihateemael As long as he was competent in the aircraft he was flying, the instructor was following the rules. When my CFII expired I got a BFR like everyone else. I took it in a single engine plane. I am Multi-engine, Instrument and Sea plane rated but I do not have to have a Biennial Flight Review in each one.
so, many are saying here that going for a semi- truck licence in a mini is perfectly fine.
Well obviously it isn't.
@@ihateemael You would be surprised at how many instrument rated pilots have never, ever flown PIC in actual instrument conditions. How can the FAA not require at least an hour in the clag? I don't own a Twin or a seaplane and when I wanted to rent one, insurance required a check out in the plane that entailed a refresher on emergency maneuvers. Sometimes it seems like you are taking the check ride again. If you own your own Twin, you never get that and bad habits accumulate.
I agree with other posters that Age & Health were greater factors than the NTSB report suggests.
Great video, Hoover. Always really enjoy your content, and it is always presented in a super professional and respectful manner.
He wasn't confused about which runway to land on - he just wanted to land on 33 for whatever reason and would read that back to the tower in hopes they would just say ok. It's just strange he insisted on 33 when 4 was right there - just get the plane on the ground in that situation geez.
I attribute some fault to the controller. From the moment the pilot mentioned engine trouble the appropriate response would be "Cleared to land, any runway."
@@aerobat3nope wrong. Pilots don’t get to call the shots.
@@dianaray1470 Pilots do call the shots. As soon as the pilot declares an emergency, they own the airport. That's their call. Many other cases where they can overrule ATC instructions for their safety. Anything that puts their plane in danger because the controller missed something, for example.
@@paulsaulpaulWhen did the pilot declare an emergency?
I’ve had three engine failures in my flying career that began in 1966. Two were in multi engine aircraft that ended with on airport landings. One was in a single engine airplane that ended in an off airport landing. Fortunately these engine failures were not on takeoff!
The landing gear problem is not as described. The PA30 has an electric gear system. The motor turns a Jack screw which allows a sleeve to travel forward and back. The sleeve is connected to the push-pull cables that extend and retract the gear. Emergency gear extension requires a disconnection of the sleeve with the Jack screw. This is done by pulling on the disconnect handle which completely removes the mechanical sleeve rider. The gear should fall and lock but if help is needed there’s a small handle that fits into one of two brackets attached to the gear’s cross bar.
Long story short, if you disconnect the gear motor via emergency extension, you have to put the plane on jacks to manually link the sleeve rider to the Jack screw. You cannot just run the motor until they cross paths. The gear absolutely does not “pump” down. There is no hydraulic pump on the twin Comanche.
This is not an inexpensive aircraft to maintain. I ran a single pilot 135 with my PA30C turbo twin Comanche with a Robertson STOL kit. Annuals were easily $8-10 thousand dollars chasing down old airframe problems. So this aircraft sounds like it had many issues. Not unusual for a poorly maintained 60’s airframe.
Seems to me that he couldn’t get 33 out of his mind. Combined with the engine and landing gear issues, he just seemed to come under some mild duress or major anxiety or mild panic.
My condolences to their families and loved ones. It is very important to feature tragedies like these as it just highlights how anyone can become overwhelmed and confused and forget to follow the correct procedures or make poor decisions under stress. May they both rest in peace.
Identify, verify, feather.
Aviate, navigate, communicate.
PITCH, POWER (full), CLEAN (gear/flaps up), IDENTIFY (dead foot - dead engine), VERIFY (slowly reduce power on suspected bad engine), FEATHER.
In this case, the design of the engine means you can't feather it below 800 RPM - the design should be illegal.
I must say, I appreciate your compassion and empathy so much during your content! Please keep up the good work!
There were probably more holes in the Swiss cheese than we know about. Then he wanted to make a right 360 into the bad engine at low altitude. That maneuver wouldn’t have worked either. Very sad story and thanks for sharing.
I enjoy your content that reaffirms my feelings why I haven’t been on an aircraft in 50 years.
You should take a trip! But on a large commercial jetliner, which will be operated by multiple professional pilots (not hobbyists). I do all the time. What I absolutely _will not_ do is get in a private plane flown by a hobbyist. Or any plane flown by a single pilot (professional or not) for the matter of that.
Retired Pilot: Hoover, impressive analysis and thoughtful presentation.
Yes, a sad one. We lost a good instructor at my local airport due to engine failure on takeoff. We had problems with light twins in the mountains the twenty years I was in New Mexico. When low, some pilots there treated it like a single engine airplane and used the good engine to help with the forced landing.
So true. And the pilot in this Twin Comanche only had approx 160 hrs TT in this twin over the 6 years that he owned it. Thats only averaging 26 hours per year or 2 hours per month. I wouldn’t think thats really enough to be well trained and proficient. Even though he had over 1,400 hrs total time, frequent flying and training in his current make and model is mostly what matters.
This one hurts. Not a pilot but worked in the hangar at INT, so know all the locations involved. RIP
Cry baby cry😅
Every time I watch one of these videos I can't help but think "they would have lived if they had flown commercial".
Twin engines are supposed to be a safety feature via redundancy, but I swear they cause more accidents than single engine aircraft.
Twin engine airplanes have two engines because they NEED two engines.
I'm not a pilot. A pilot friend, now deceased, once told me he preferred single engine aircraft because in two engine aircraft, if one engine fails, the other engine will take you to your crash destination. Do pilots on here understand what he meant? Unfortunately, my pilot friend passed away before he could explain this to me.
It's ironic isn't it? As far as the machine goes, they are safer. Even if it cannot climb or maintain level flight on one engine, it will still have a lower descent rate than no engine. The pilots are the weak point. Engine trouble in a light twin is a very demanding situation and you need to be on your game to handle it properly, and close to the ground you need to react quickly. Many of the crashes result from pilots overestimating the single engine performance and not treating it as an emergency. The "we're OK" in this incident was his biggest mistake. They were not OK.
Yep this is why the cirrus with single engine and parachute has become so popular even with $1million price. We need twins with a parachute. The veloce 600 experimental is only twin I know of that has parachute option.
Forgot to mention also that simply having two engines doubles the chance of an engine failure. The chance of a dual failure is less than the chance of losing the only engine on a single engine plane, but losing one engine on a twin is equivalent to losing half the power of a single engine plane in addition to suddenly having asymmetric thrust and drag which makes it fly wonky.
Excellent debrief. However if the critical factor was engine failure in a twin, the plastic contamination was not the ultimate cause. Lack of single engine proficiency would be the cause as he was obviously rusty as to how to deal with a twin's engine failure. A light twin can be much more dangerous than a single in engine failure scenarios if you do not have the protocol drilled into deep memory so the actions are rapid and automatic. So the failure in my view is not enough training and practice of single engine failure procedure. Furthermore, from the ADS-B data it appears his judgement was severely compromised. He requested a right 360 as he was missing final turn for 33. But then he makes left turn before the crash. You only make turns into the live engine, because if you attempt to turn towards the dead side, you may not be able to roll out of that turn even above VMC. With one engine out there should only have been one turn direction, and this points again to lack of single engine out procedure/understanding. If you own a light twin, you must do single engine practice and training often and make sure it is drilled deep into automatic memory - would be the lesson from this tragedy in my view.
Avoiding turns into the dead engine is a myth.
This was tough to watch. Identify, verify, fix or feather. All sounds easy, but not knowing/accepting that an engine needs to be shutdown is the tricky part it seems. Thought provoking video. May they rest in peace. Very sad.
These private pilots be dropping like flies every day
If I've learned anything from Pilot Debrief, it's to
stay away from small private aircraft.
Thanks Hoovie❤
Thank you, Hoover! Excellent presentation.
Prayers for this family! I am so sorry for their loss!
It is truly gut wrenching to realize that Thanksgivings for this family are forever tainted with grief of the memory.
@ very very true.
I'm always amazed at the ages of the planes in these videos. I mean, if you put me in a 60 year old automobile today I'd be afraid. Is flying planes this old fairly common?
It's not the years so much as it is hours....think of a 60 year old car with 10,000 miles on it.
I live in the Winston Salem arena. I remember this story, such a sad story.
Hoover, another EXCELLENT analysis....thank you for your hard work ....❤
Maybe if the pilot had declared an emergency when he realized he had engine trouble, this sad tragedy could’ve been prevented. I once declared an emergency back in 1976. I was a private pilot and right after takeoff had mechanical problems and immediately ATC was right there. I was just 20 years old. Thankfully everything turned out well.
How much faith do we have in the students that this flight instructor taught?
Indeed. This pilot's _total_ hours are what a professional airline pilot logs in maybe two years. On the same type. He had 155 hours on type. He looks like a kind gentleman, and still there is no way I'd get on a plane being solo-flown by somebody with essentially 10 weeks of experience operating it. Godspeed him and his wife, and condolences to his family and friends.
Well that is very sad!!! And it shows how even small mistakes and disorientation can have such a huge impact on a day for family and friends…. My heart goes out to the family members of them two!!
I owned a PA-30 for 19 years. Love the airplane. Very sad to see this mishap.
I have a private pilots license (not current). My brother in law is a great pilot who flew this plane for his family business. On long trips he preferred to run the wing tank dry before switching to the other tank and began the primer start routine mid-flight. I was with him on one of these occasions--made my sister freak out as it felt like the plane hit the breaks when the engines quit (at night). He was able to fire up both engines and we still laugh about it today.
Thanks Hoover. Hoping you having a good Thanksgiving break.
My daughter, who just started her flight training, watch these videos regularly. It instills a sense of humility and awareness to realities that will occur at some point and test your abilities.
This is complacency, Joe did not prioritize getting on the ground once he had a problem. He should have declared a Mayday and landed ASAP. That is the lesson learned in this case.
I have never understood why pilots in some countries are afraid to call a Mayday.
To insist on an alternate runway when you have been given the best choice is baffling.
Panic? Confusion?
It's a much longer runway. If you know go-around is not going to be an option and/or you are out of your normal flow, I can see the POV.
@@Tranquility32old????
Seems like a great guy my guess is he didn’t understand the gravity of the situation, didn’t want to spook his wife, or was unprepared and unfamiliar with a twin that’s lost an engine. The fact he was an instructor is mind boggling. Excellent review; RIP.
ABS plastic...I cannot tell you how many times I have seen fuel line fittings with nylon tape on the threads. I dont know if it presents as ABS, but I would'nt be suprised. Nicley done Hoover. 🦅
I think that's TEFLON tape.
I love your channel and have learned so much about being a pilot. Never piloted a plane before but I’ve realized how incredibly arrogant some of them are. You would think you would relentlessly study your craft to a point of obsessiveness. After all you only have 1 life. But I’ve realized many on your videos are cool with doing the bare minimum and seeing what happens. That’s so insane to me but I see it on your videos time and time again. Thanks for all you do and sharing your knowledge with us. It is greatly appreciated. I’ve realized that not only would I ever attempt to be a pilot but I’m never getting on a plane again. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze.
I totally agree - where are the safety and instructional obsessives?!? He should’ve declared.
These pilots treat ATC like they’re “the man”, obfuscating situations for the sake of pride or I don’t know what. This pattern keeps repeating so it bears mentioning.
How many people do you know that drive cars, but know nothing about them?! This didn't sound to be arrogance on the pilots part as much as him being low, slow and near the ground when everyting hit the fan. Landing a complex aircraft is labor intensive and easy to be overwhelmed. And trust me, flying in General Aviation is safer by orders of magnatude, then driving a car...🦅
Love ya Brother. Happy holidays. As said before I'm USAF crash fire rescue
Your content is expert. i watch your content for many reasons
Thank you for your service.....you are a true patriot ❤
I love your debriefs. You are so knowledgeable and appear to find things others miss. Keep up the good work
This is very sad. My condolences to the family 🙏
My wife and I been married 34 years 6 grown kids 6 grandkids now,I have been a truck driver 28 years.We both agreed at the start she doesn’t go with me at all never has bc of our family(children)..My condolences to this family.
Another excellent debrief. As the 50% of non pilots here, I know basically what feathering is but hoped Hoover would spend an xtra minute or so with explaining and a diagram. Also as non pilot I just can’t imagine flying a 1960’s anything.
Age in aircraft is relative. Usually they are well maintained, annualed, kept in airworthy condition , compared to cars of that vintage.
Some people should never be pilots. Problem is, most bad pilots don't think they are, so then we end up with stories like this.
What seems odd is the inability to feather a prop when rpm is under 800. If you realize too late, you can't?
I have the exact same question. That sounds nuts to me.
Ditto. I'm surprised there isn't some sort of emergency manual override but they're aeronautical engineers and I'm not.
Sounds like a knee jerk reaction to a situation that happens on occasion without thinking of other case scenarios
I am 52, yoa nurse from Kansas, I'm not a pilot. I watch your videos all the time. I don't want to fly again unless you're the pilot. But seriously, I will never fly a small plane flown by the owner or renter.
The fact that this happened on the way there somehow makes it that much worse. The perceived pressure to arrive for a get-together could have affected this pilot's decision-making process throughout
"I just want to get it on the ground" at the end of a long trip?
I don't understand this. There is no indication that he was overdue, and he had the option of landing sooner. He turned it down.
Not even closely related. I have no idea what you’re talking about. Did you not even watch the video?
@@Jimmer-Space88 "Get-there-itis" is a problem that potentially bedevils most pilots from time to time. The fact that he did not want to have his landing gear issue checked at his unplanned stop in KY indicates that this may have played a role. Notice I wrote "played a role", not that is was the cause.
@ get thereitis is a made up term and not a verified condition. So, he was already at his destination in clear blue skies and perfect weather. No applicability to this. You need to stop regurgitating shit you watch on the Internet without understanding it.
As an old aviator ,keep up the good work,I believe you will make difference in the long run,, I hope all the young ones digest your your thoughts and comments ..stay safe cheers Den in NZ
Thanks again, Hoover. Hope you're having a good holiday.
When I see these stories I can't stop wondering up to what age it is safe for a person to fly airplanes
Great Debrief. Having engine problems would be very distracting because you would have the tendency to have that thought to problem solve. Sad that he was not able to compensate and focus on flying the aircraft and follow ATC instructions. Definitely an unfortunate outcome for them and their family. Hopefully this will serve as a teaching aid for all pilots so they can avoid the same tragedy.
I believe he said he had owned this aircraft for six years….. yet had only 155 hrs flight time in it. It seems to me to be very low amount of hours over the time period. This frequently crops up in crashes like this. Flying is a hobby that needs constant practice and retraining…… at least that is one of my takes from watching this channel. So sad to see so many people losing their lives like this.
If you’re having engine trouble everything is not ok.
Another good presentation. I think your comments about his gear issue in KY were insightful. Seems like that and maybe some other stuff perhaps even beyond the engine issue were distracting Joe that he was losing focus on the task at hand.
No ones talking about the fact that plane ran fine from IL until he got gas in KY ( added fuel dislodged ABS?)
As to 10:41 VMC issue, the Piper would fly on one, particularly with light load and coming in for landing ( descending).
There are several filters between the fuel tanks and the engine. Something is very strange about a piece of plastic causing too much fuel to get into the engine - but I have not read the report as to why. I'm guessing Hoover simplified the explanation for the wider YT audience.
This is another tragic story...But as always professionally presented. Hope you had a good thanksgiving Hoover. You always make me smarter.
I'm from back in the day when accident-event sequences were known as "links in a chain." I'm still getting used to the Swiss cheese model, which I'll admit is a better representation of how an accident can occur.
I fear this accident comes down to a lack of training: the PIC wasn't proficient in engine-out procedures. I remember an old joke from the early days of twin-engine flight: "When you lose one engine, the other will allow you to fly to the crash site." There was some truth to this, as early light twins were underpowered, and an engine-out event was basically a long glide downward - as long as you kept the a/c flying. "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate," no?
Still a tragedy after two years ... Thoughts and prayers.
my heart goes out to their families...I can't even imagine
You should never treat any flight as routine.
Twin engine planes can become a nightmare when there are mechanical issues. This is why you need to do yearly training in them and specifically, you need to get training on what to do with an engine out situation. It needs to be muscle memory. Thousands of hours in a twin when all goes well is great. You also need lots of training on engine out situations. This is why I feel single engine are often safer than twins, as weird as that seems.
There are pilots who would agree with you on the safety of twins vs singles. Of course, it depends on the mission and the type of aircraft. Turbine engines rarely (I'd bet) fail compared to combustion engines. Also worth considering, if I was making regular trips over expanses of water, I'd likely want a twin. Otherwise, as a GA pilot who is a land lubber, I have no interest in twins!
Yep, on every TO an engine is gonna quit.... Thats the mindset needed.