Damn, that’s sad lol. I really want to own this car, and I already got my parts list ready for racing, but this situation is ruff and causing me extreme internal panic lol
You guys are really tracking these cars? Guys these cars were meant to be slammed on bags, wide bodied, and have super loud tomei catbacks with pops and bang tunes. Do your research guys
Toyota GR Cup car mechanic here. We had 3 motors blow up on us at COTA and could not understand from looking at the data if the pressure drops were enough to cause catastrophic failure. Even the Toyota guys themselves were questioning the lower pressures. This is incredible information and really hope the engineers have found all this out also. Best of luck and stay safe!
Thanks so much for commenting. I’ve been wondering if we’d see reliability issues from the GR Cup cars and I knew there was one failure last weekend at practice, but I had no idea about that. Is that 3 motors within your team or the whole paddock?
@@900BRZ 3 motors just from our team, I imagine other teams had the same happened to them. We had 4 cars there that weekend and conditions weren't any help, hot as hell then it started raining on top. We honestly were thinking we were using the wrong weight of oil with the second one that blew up but by the third we figured it was an issue from the factory. Just glad that we're motor swapping experts now lol
Thanks for chiming in. This is the precisely the kind of info I want. What else can you tell use about the incidents? The more info we have the better.
This seems typical Subaru. Surprised Toyota signed off on this. The fix for it seems simple and inexpensive. No, I wouldn’t buy a Subaru, this is just one more reason.
One missing piece for me would be an overview of the oil circuit diagram. For example with the 95/96 mitsubishi eclipse turbo motors they had moved the piston squirters to be in line or before the feed for the thrust bearing of the crankshaft which is what lead to the notorious crankwalk situation. If you can pinpoint which bearing is fed last and look at engines where failures are occuring and where your pressure sensors are relative to those elements there may be more insight to be had. Or it's as simple as what has been presented here and further analysis isn't needed.
Every engineering student also calls themselves an engineer. Bad engineers also call themselves an engineer. Just so you know ;). Ps: I'm a pretty mid engineer, and nobody should trust anything I say. 😅
@@turbo_brian Through my study on FA engines. there is a really interesting design Subaru decided to do to the FA engines. They decided that Main Journal 3 should feed oil to both rod journals 2 and 3, imo kinda a compromising design.
@@900BRZbaffle alone wasnt enough.. Baffle is simply an oil scraper with main task to collect oil that were thrown around after the oil exiting crankshaft and conrod journal... 2nd...bigger and properly baffled oil sump is more important than crankcase baffle plate alone... 3rd.. to get to the real issue oil of unstable oilling in these boxer engine, first... We must understand that fa/fb series engine was born from development on ej series... Thus u need to look in ej series subaru engine to find the core issue.... Issue 1: slow oil return to sump after being used throughout around the engine... Especially after the oil went onto camshaft and vvti assembly, it took long lateral journey from rocker cover and timing cover area back oil sump... Issue 2: engine oil galley machining wasnt optimized.. esoecially the galley that supply engine oil into crankshaft journal #3 that also sharing the same oil supply for conrod #2 & #3 (all other crank and conrod journal gets their own dedicated oil supply galley) In order to solve this issue...the engine need to be torn down, and hand porting needed to smooth down all those oil galley.... Especially these 3 area: oil pump outlet to oil filter, oil filter outlet into engine block and crank journal #3 (including conrod #2 & #3 galley)
Send this to every branch/division of Toyota & Subaru if you can! If we can get them to solve these problems from factory, that would be a HUGE W for all of us.
2022 BRZ owner; thank you for you time and effort on this. The scientific nature and integrity here are apparent and you’ve done the community a huge service here. If the KillerB baffle data looks any significantly better than stock, they’re gonna sell like hotcakes. Subbing for further updates :)
@@auricauric8150 not yet. BUT all the current baffles afaik generally prioritize minimizing side to side sloshing; this doesn’t appear to be the issue affecting oiling. If somebody designs a baffle that can prevent oil from surging back into the timing case, that may make a significant difference. Hard to say as even with the data here there isn’t a 100% smoking gun, but perhaps some baffle that prevents upward flow into the timing case OR a different pan which changes the angle at the front of the pan such that surging into the timing case occurs MAY be enough to at least minimize the issue. Only one way to find out.
@@SK-tr1wo uhhh besides the extra roughly $10k they cost sticker, plus they’re awd and way more front heavy. GR Corolla is sick but you can’t compare an awd hot hatch to a RWD sports car.
Absolutely incredible work. What surprised me most is that significant pressure drops can be observed on EXTREMELY low grip setups. The guys that are running fast 200TW tires/Hoosiers, and 9.5"+ wide wheels are going to have massive drops in pressure.
Yeah I think that was the big difference between what I’m presenting here and what a lot of people in the community have been discussing. The standard assumption was you’d only run into problems with 200 TW or grippier tires and advanced drivers.
@williamrori1274 Would be interesting to see how our hyundai N 2.0 engines do oil pressure wise in turns and in WOT acceleration mode. Is there anyway you can put that video out ?
@@velocityvibezzz I could defintely do one similar to this. However, I only have a AIM Solo 2, not the DL which can record custom CAN channels. My EK1 Lite may be able to, but the it'll be closer to 1Hz. I'll look into it
One interesting way to visualize this would be a g-g plot with oil pressure imposed on top of it as a color map. This way you may be able to see what the exact longitudinal/lateral accelerations for oil starvation looks like and that can help influence baffle design (ie figure out which direction most of the damping needs to happen). It can help isolate corner entry, apex, or exit. But you can also extract a mu at which oil starvation occurs thus you can deduce exactly what grip levels will cause the pressure drop. Of course, maybe most of the time the oil is spent sloshing so maybe this won’t work.
Also as an engineer myself - a presentation, particularly around some analysis, with a conclusion slide to kick things off is excellent. Good piece of work.
Man what a world class production. Impeccable methodology, and shockingly good driving. Nice job guys. Just got my BRZ, still in break in. I'd be interested to hear about that prototype baffle. Please share the results
As a statistics major as well as fellow car enthusiast and FA24 owner (22 WRX), I am amazed by the thoroughness of the experiment. The way you have controlled the factors, taken everything into consideration, hypothesized and substantiated the claims is excellent! I am heavily invested in your experiment and am going to following it closely!
22 WRX is a FA24DIT with oil pan shared with the Crosstrek, Forester, Impreza, Legacy, Outback & WRX. This video is about the FA24D, which has a different oil pan and pickup, etc.
As a 2022 GR86 owner, I cant thank you enough for this work you've done here. Really liked the high level overview. Keep this up and let us know how the future tests go!
There is also windage from the crank shaft turning in a clock wise direction. This is why the base model C7 Corvette was electronically restricted when it sensed high Gs going around right hand corners, usually occurring when stickier tires were added.
Yeah we have started doing experiments with higher oil levels and will continue to explore that. Lower levels are going to result in less oil available to the pickup and worse oiling performance.
@@900BRZ Well, if I'm understand corectly the phenomenom of windage, it is due to proximity of the oil level to the crankshaft, resulting in whipping/foaming.
Such an amazing car, with a huge performance flaw.. its so weird to see the graph dip in every right turn, but its fine for literally everything else. That data is so important and handy.
Words alone cannot thank you enough for doing this. I very much respect and appreciate your efforts here. I’ve owned my 23 GR86 for about 5 weeks now and just completed my first HPDE last week. Looking forward to your results with the proto baffle.
Fantastic job! This data tracks with my observations and testing as well. That is, I don't think RTV in the pickup is a big deal here (however, an important one as mentioned), but just the lackluster oiling capabilities of the FA24. Again nice job! I might test out one of the KillerB parts as well 👌
This was fun. The oil sloshing forward can't be the ultimate answer though. That would be happening no matter which way you turn. And the pressure drop was immediate, if you turned to the right. The pick-up offset could maybe do that, but man, that seems like they called things way to close. Hopefully you figure out a band aid fix, but because the drop in pressure when turning right happened every time and immediately, there might be something inherently wrong with that block or maybe just the oil pump capacity. It would be interesting to hear from an engine designer. Thanks for doing this. Well done.
I don’t claim to have a definitive answer, but these are the best theories I’ve heard. We’ve reproduced this in the two FA24s in this video and one other friend has similar data in another FA24. So I don’t believe this is a one-off manufacturing issue with a single car. I would love for a fluid dynamics expert to enter the chat 😉
@@900BRZ Fluid Dynamics folks generally don't bother with how oil sloshing inside engines and the pickup sucks dry under particular G loads and revs. They would be more involved about how a fluid or gasses flow or behave in various conditions, pressures.. Hard Core physics calculations and computer simulations. It would take way longer to set up the FD computer simulations and run all the variables and scenarios on them.. Than it takes to install cameras inside the pan and do some trial and error with sensors and additional baffles similar to what you already started.
@@900BRZ Would a swivelling pickup potentially fix this? they make them that are setup in such a way that they move with the oil, basically. Also, have you tried overfilling the engine with oil? I am not sure about boxer engines, but I know in the cars that i have tracked where I have had to deal with oil starvation issues, overfilling by a quart or so doesn't harm the engine, but helps massively with these issues, YMMV obviously, and overfilling is never a good idea if you don't know whether it will harm the motor. I would get some sheet metal, a welder, and make a much larger capacity winged baffled sump with a swivel pickup as a final resort. But that is a big job and doesn't help all the other people.
@@russelljimenez4715before going to a swivel pickup a think a 4 gate setup welded into the pan might be something to look into, probably in a diamond shape since it seems it's only on those right handers with lift or braking. A normal square with a gate facing forward may not close in time.
@@russelljimenez4715overfilling the engine withe oil can result in foaming and end up being just as bad as running an engine completely dry of oil. Next time you do this have a look at your dipstick after your drive and if you see a lot of bubble and froth no good.. even worse if oil has changed colour
I don’t own one of these cars yet but I’ve been contemplating selling my Miata and buying one. I’ve been following along on this issue for months now and this video is BY FAR the best and most conclusive data shown. Great work and I’ll absolutely be watching for the update when you test the new pan from Killer B.
This video convinced me to shelve my plans for a used (or new) GR86. I can't believe Subaru can't design a reliable boxer engine, its their whole thing and they failed this very important issue.
Thank you very much for putting in this work and publishing your findings. Huge for the FA24 community. If there is any way at all you can conduct a similar test with a 22+ WRX, many owners will be very grateful.
Well done. Thank you for the science and showing the OEMs how to test a car. I look forward to the next test results. It would be interesting to contact the GR Cup people and get their deep sump oil pan and add that into the stream of interventions. Maybe the solution is just a larger capacity oil pan and a longer oil pick up. It would be interesting to test your cars on turn 9 at VIR, an uphill R turn at about 105mph. Thanks again.
Shared the word in Australia just now. Thank you for your efforts, it has concluded my thoughts on this great car. Look forward to its growth as a platform for racing for the years to come!
Wow, you guys did a great job! That is a lot of work. This looks like something that would be produced for a court hearing for a class action lawsuit. 😅
Thank you so much for all this data! I love seeing actual science at play instead of just throwing assumptions around. I just got a new brz a few months ago and I have been a little concerned about all the oiling issues I was seeing with these cars. Again, can't thank you enough just gave you a sub to try to support you on this journey to figure out what can possibly fix all the blown motors on track.
'23 GR86 MT owner. I'm really glad you are doing this and I really hope a solution arises. I bought the car specifically for the race track and couldn’t be more frustrated. I was hoping to have a fun daily that with some upgraded pads and fluids could be a capable track toy, even in stock form. $35k later and I may never even get to track the car for fear of blowing an engine that I cannot afford to replace…
The official STi baffled oil pan is part number ST11109Z2000. Just put that on and it should do the trick, one assumes. It appears to be part of the "kit" for the GR86 BRZ Cup in Japan, so if it's good enough for a race series...
It would be cheaper to replace the short block every year on this platform than pay for the consumables on something like SS 1LE if you track frequently enough.
Thank you for sharing your documentation. I hope a solution for oil pressure drops and reduction in bearing failure can be accomplished. I know we all love how these cars drive and give us so much enjoyment.
I hope Toyobaru sees this and award you a brand new GR86 because you are doing their homework for them. And I hope they fix the issue for the facelift.
@@MarkJCarruthersNo, just no more boxers 😂 Subaru is stuck on these crappy engines for ? heritage sake? Isn't that the same excuse Harley uses to not switch to OHC engines?
@@izzy9022 boxers have a low center of gravity, no need to ditch them. Maybe they should get in contact with a couple of Porsche engineers or something.
First time on your channel, and I don't own a brz, but the educational factor of your video is what caught my eyes when scolling yt today. Nice to see some actual testing and theory crafting as to what's causing these issues. Good work!
The FA20 had really crappy oil pressure consistency, and I cannot believe that it's WORSE on the FA24. That's horrendous. Thanks for making this vid, I hope it gets spread like wild.
Shared this on the /r/cars subreddit. This is so valuable for FA24 owners, as well as those looking into the platform as their future track car. Thank you for taking the time to make this and do it in this format.
Thank you for the data and all the work putting this together. I've heard about this right hand turns leading to oil starvation on old EJ25 turbo engines (like in my 06 STI), and I thought this was largely addressed in FA series engines. Maybe it was a step in the right direction for FA20, but it looks Subaru went straight backward and ended up exactly where they were with FA24...
wow, can't really argue with this - great job, very clear/concise, I hope this opens some eyes for workable solutions - thank you for putting this together! As others have mentioned, I wonder what results you'd get in spirited canyon driving - I have a feeling not great😬
I didn’t want to present this in the main findings because I don’t have the actual data, but I did chat with one of the teams and they confirmed that they do log the oil PSI and they said “we haven’t seen below 20 PSI but it gets right down there.” So I believe it’s possible/likely that their baffling solution is not solving these pressure drops either.
@@Wesley-ui3dw I’m not sure what kind of support they have from Toyota. It’s very possible that Toyota would replace their engines if they fail due to oiling issues and they’d sweep it under the rug. Also they won’t expect to get more than 1 season out of the engines. One engine failed in practice at the last event but it was replaced before quali. No public info on the cause.
I deeply appreciate the thorough investigation and wonderful explanation of whats going on - its people like you that make the car community that one little bit better every day. Thanks!
An Aussie racing web site (don't remember which one) stated that certain cars would not be allowed on the track without an oil pan baffle. Among these were the 2022 BRZ and GR86. They indicated the problem was oil starvation. I've installed a Tomei baffle in my 2022 GR86 and after 4 track days my FA24 is still in one piece. Two of the baffles they recommended were the Tomei and the GReddy.
Wow, you are doing God's work 💪 i was going to pickup a brz or 86 as a daily, but I was concerned about this problem, so i went with a mazda. I really appreciate your work 🙏
it's actually sickening how subaru and toyota are staying silent on the issue, they should be helping out to find a solution. Unless they know there is none.
This is great. In future analysis it could be helpful to display the data graphically and use some stats to analyze it. You could use area under the curve as an analogue for the oil pressure drop and compare the aoc from the testing cars to control car. This could then give you a ratio which correlates to the degree at which the oil pressure is worse in the testing cars than the control. We can see it in the videos but the numbers can be very helpful when presenting this is a short format/ elevator talk. If you have any stats friends they might do this for you.
That’s a cool idea. One of my friends made a little web service that attempts to create a glance-able view of this kind of data: track-build.com/oil-pressure-analysis I think the coloring on the track map is based on absolute pressure levels but your area under the curve idea is an interesting way to generalize that.
Another engineer chiming in(lol), specifically race engine design (and Subaru nerd); this was a nicely constructed and conducted test. I've actually already started a baffle for my own FA24DIT but I'll be curious to see what Chris (KillerB) comes up with.
Thank you for this. I was planning to buy a GR86 as my daily driver and part time track car but having a car with restrictions even though it is marketed as a "track car" doesn't sink well with me.
Why even take the risk with the car? Toyota North America isn’t readily approving warranty work and the second hand values will probably tank if cars begin to spin bearings out of warranty. I’d look at the last Gen car, modifying old BMWs, or just getting a used Mustang GT or Camero SS. Maybe find an old Porsche that’ll hold its value as long as you’re putting less than 5,000 miles a year on it.
Mine failed after full throttle acceleration in a straight line with 34k on it after jinxing myself by calling the issue overblown. No tracking, performance AS tires, so rarely over 1g, and oil always checked and changed every 5k, driven by an advanced manual driver. Warranty taking care of it and they're blaming RTV. Like the video, I believed RTV wasn't sole cause, but a contributor until mine blew in a straight line and I started thinking maybe it WAS just RTV. After seeing this, I'm thinking it's more likely 34k miles of accumulated damage being as most corners on the street are right hand turns for highway ramps, plus probably some assistance from RTV. Looking forward to results with the baffle.
Sorry to hear that. I definitely believe in the theory of damage to the bearings accumulating. So sometimes we may have a smoking gun type failure where the engine actually spins a bearing in the middle of a sustained right-hander, for example, but we might find they also let go in other scenarios.
@@900BRZ Thanks. Stuff happens, I just want this to be figured out so it can be fixed. I don't want to have to sell it before the warranty is up and get something more boring and likely more expensive!
Great video, this is such a clear demonstration that something is very wrong within the FA24 motor. Hoping your baffle works, FWIW I've owned 2014 gen 1 since new and have done approx. 45 track days with 0W30 oil, a cooler and Greddy sump baffle and I've not had any engine issues, all my local tracks are clockwise too.
Really well done, thanks for putting this together! Hope you can send this data to engineers at Subaru/Toyota to review. Wonder if this is something they didn't see in testing, something they thought was acceptable, or some other explanation. Another question that might shed light on this is what about the 1st gen FA20 allowed it to see less severe pressure drops in RH turns?
Very nicely done. What is so compelling about these results is just how repeatable they are across drivers, and cars, and that the drop on the FA20 is smaller. The fact that this occurs in right hand turns with a change in elevation, and not in left hand turns is especially significant. All of these tests are done with the oil topped up, so this is a 'best case' result. Normal oil levels will often be lower. If the car is not exactly level when the dip stick is read, the reading may be 'off'. Also track consumption can be 'high'. Some BRZ/86 teams report oil consumption of 4 fluid ounces per hour in competition. While it would be prohibitively expensive to test a condition that you believe puts the engine at risk of catastrophic failure, the idea that slightly lower oil levels might lead to much lower oil pressure drops, of this type, I find wholly credible.
@900BRZ - I'd love to see you guys test an FA24 WRX for on-track oil pressure loss the same way you tested in this video. Are you planning to do that? I noticed your July 5 instagram post says "Killer B is now investigating the differences between the FA24 engines in the WRX and BRZ." It seems to me the first step of that investigation would be to verify for sure how the FA24 WRX behaves during identical testing to what you show in this video. Great job so far, you and the other guys working on this!
i know a guy who has a 22 gr86 that tracks it pretty frequently and has put down a very impressive 1:52 (possibly a 1:51 at this point) at The Ridge in shelton, wa. I am keen to know if he ends up putting a new engine in that car. as far as I know he hasn't modified the powertrain at all, most likely relying on the oem warranty. i want to love this car despite its downfalls but the oiling issues are a redflag i will not ignore. edit: man that's wild only 60psi at wot, my shelby does minimum 80-100 even at 210f
The Ridge may be biased to left-handers, but its largest crest does happen to be a right-hander and I’ve personally blown an FA20 on that track. The FA20 was known to have oiling problems, so it makes me sad to hear that the FA24 is even worse. (It’s news to me because after too many FA20 problems I swapped away from the boxer and never looked back.) IMHO the only real fix is to swap the engine or sell the car. I hope your friend continues to have good luck with their engine!
@@snarky-drive-by That's my local track too and I've been thinking about the corkscrew and the run up the hill (can't remember turn numbers as I've been away for a while). Both of those being right-handers with elevation changes scares me. I've just picked up a GR86 and now I'm debating if I'll ever take it to the track. Super huge bummer.
If this works, patent this and sell it to Toyota/Subaru and get paid. This is literally keeping this vehicle from being my somewhat affordable track option. Fantastic work and looking forward to the results.
It’s not my baffle, it’s from Killer B Motorsport. I just volunteered to test it for them. They posted on forums earlier this year that they were looking for beta testers.
Im curious what adding an extra .5 to 1 quart of oil would do. It was something that GM recommended for track use of the Camaro, not sure of their reasoning though.
Thank you, highly appreciate what you have done here. This really give us a good insight into this FA24 issue. Looking forward to your data and result with Killer B prototype baffle 👍 keep up the good work
absolutely amazing work here, huge respect to your friend who produced the PCB to communicate to CANBUS to enable logging. some more wrinkly brains at work on this than subaru engineers designing these damn engines. this really is a massive cause for concern, and an overwhelming amount of evidence to stack up to a class action lawsuit against subaru/toyota. this is not only a threat to drivers on track, i can think of several on and offramps where i am pulling even more sustained right hand G's than thunder hill can afford you. sage work seriously.
need to look into Canton accusumps , or other brand oil accumulators . its a canister which holds several quarts of oil under pressure, when the sensor senses a low pressure , it bleeds off the stored oil into the oiling system maintaining the wanted pressure , and then rebuilds pressure and stores the oil . can also be used on a switch to pre oil the engine .
Yeah I think that may be a future solution, but I want to do simple mechanical interventions first. Accumulators add additional failure points and maintenance so they won’t be as good of a solution for as many people.
Do you think the heavier oil in the older FA20 was a factor in maintaining that oil pressure? Or is it because the oiling system really is that much more robust?
In a perfect world (or if I was designing a test with a larger budget) we would have swapped to 5W30 in that car as well. In practice, it’s unlikely that there would be a big difference from the weight. You’d expect to see slightly higher pressures overall with the 0W40 weight at temperature as a result of slightly higher viscosity. But I’d expect the main benefit to be more residual oil on the bearings during the pressure drop. It’s hard to say definitively with the added variable and only testing 1 FA20.
@@dscpat I’m not totally convinced about that yet, although I can be convinced otherwise. I am running Motul 8100 EFE partially because it has a high HTHS viscosity at 150°C, which is a test that tries to describe performance at critical locations such as bearings, where there is high shear rates and high temps. 8100 has an HTST viscosity of 3.5 mPa and you can definitely get w40 oils with less than that.
The problem is oil control. Is to much oil going to the heads ? Is the oil not returning fast enough from the heads ? Is there a windage tray ? Baffles with oil control doors ? Larger diameter oil pickup tube required ? Larger capacity truncated sump required ? Seems the problem is exacerbated in right turns and the longer the turn the more it climbs the left side of the sump and away from the pickup probably pulling in air/foam. The other problem is one main bearing is supplying two connecting rods and another feed needs to be supplied to that main bearing to bump up oil volume. The questions I give are to help you find the solution and these question are statements providing direction. Porsche has had a similar problem, but with a lot more than oiling, so go take a look @ the M97 & 97 vs the replacement engine the 9A1 where the problems got solved. The FA20 & FA24 only need to fix the oiling issues I mention. Good luck on this and it's fixable.
Great points and things I need to spend more time thinking about. I’ve read about people improving the oiling on FA20s for forced injection by changing the bore on some of the galleries to increase flow rate to the main bearings. I feel that it’s difficult and expensive to do that without basically just guessing unless you can do CFD work to prove it.
@900BRZ fa engine doesn't have priority oiling system like EJ. EJ feeds its oil to the main journals first, then halfway through they split off 90 degrees to each head. Where FA has 3 specific oil ports, first goes straight to the driver head, 2nd to the crank, 3rd to the passenger head. Such that driver head is robbing oil pressure from the crank. A very interesting design for sure. Hence we don't see a lot of videos on the first gen trying to rev to 9000 rpm. Except fully customized element tunning engine.
Yeah have read about the non-prioritized oiling. I probably won’t be the one to do experiments with changing that through changing oil passage sizes, but interested in seeing if that helps. There is an internal windage tray, but we’re not sure that it’s completely reducing the windage effect. We are seeing these pressure drops starting around 6000 RPM, so it’s possible it’s having an influence. I want to try out the Kazama baffle, which has a 1-way door to try and keep oil available to the pickup. Changing the pickup itself requires removing the timing cover, so going to avoid that for now. I’m not a performance shop, I’m just self-funding this, so not interesting in tearing down the engine unless I have to.
Phenomenal work collecting and explaining all this data sir! I've been working on my oiling system also since the EJs are also notorious (specially on track) to have oiling issues. Thanks again for putting this together!!!
As someone who competes in the 86Cup and running the same suspension and tire setup I'm curious to see the results with the baffle. Is it possible to log oil pressure using an AIM Solo II DL without adding an aftermarket sensor? See you at TH on 7/1 ?
No, you need a aftermarket oil pressure sensor (as OEM doesn't have one, OEM oil switch is just a ON/OFF switch). You also need a Analog to CAN injector board to inject the sensor data to CAN bus so the AIM Solo DL2 can log it.
What a terrific design of experiment It is a bit of shame that even Toyota's engineers did not find out this. I feel like getting back with the xbox 360 thermal issues and circle of death.
You mentioned the pressure is controlled to a max of about 60psi. What system regulates this for the engine and could it be getting false readings from oil sloshing mid corner?
This is a good question and I don’t have a complete understanding of this. I’ll ask around. My understanding is that absolute limit of the oil pressure system is set by the pressure relief value, which I believe activates at over 100 PSI, so it would mainly be used in a cold-start. Something else is limiting the pressure to ~60 PSI at temperature on track. I believe this is the pressure the pump is capable of producing given a certain oil viscosity and temperature. But I’ve also heard that the pump is overbuilt, which would seem to contradict that. I’m a little out of my depths trying to understand the fluid dynamics behind it, but it may be possible to explain that contradiction by saying the pump is overbuilt but a boundary layer forms that prevents the pump from building more pressure.
@@900BRZ but seriously thank you for this objective data! commenting again to help raise awareness. Personally I like taking on ramps pretty aggressively, this info will make me think twice and the time you took to put this together is much appreciated!
Great job on the video, findings and evidence to show this, will be following to see your results with the prototype baffle from KillerB! This is really needed for all 86/BRZ owners
Thank you for this very important work up and analysis. Subscribed and will be following closely. Fingers crossed the prototype baffle shows desired outcomes.
One thing I notice at 10:00 is the drop is not as rough on the uphill section of T8, but as you crest it gets worse. From everything I have seen it seems a redesigned pan is necessary.
Thank you, 900BRZ for your work and dedication to test and monitor GR86 oil pressure. It seems, that like the GT86, the GR86 have some issue that need to be solve ....by the community. We solved the issue with a dedicated oil cooler for the gt86, now we must find the good way to track the gr86. It will become a very good platform, I am convinced.
Thank you for doing this. I got rod knock on my fa20 the same day I missed an exit on the highway and had to take 3 right hand clover exits. I had just gotten new coilovers and tires so I sent it a bit hard. It started knocking later that day.
@@Arunkumar-bg5xk ‘17. It happened at 45k miles. I did 3, 270 degree right turns separated by 200m or so at a fairly high rpm. In the video it was a short drop but it also wasn’t a 270 degree turn x3. Edit: and no oil cooler
I watch your video and you did an excellent job isolating a fault and demonstrating the engine design flaw. I want to thank you for what you did. Now to the bad (unrelated to you). Subaru can't build a reliable engine. Look at Porsche, using flat six for over 60 years and they can figure out how to fix the oil starvation, they even run two oil reservoirs. My concern with this engine is how Toyota marketed the GR86, they put out TV commercials doing drifting to sell you the product but they haven't stepped forward to offer a solution or to release a TSB(technical service bulletin ) or a recall. I hate Killer B for their prices, they make decent products but they are not competitive price wise. There are companies out there that make electric oil pumps and water pumps, many that is the ticket. I am talking about external electrical pump with an additional oil reservoir. I have a GR86 arriving this week and I have been reading all the engine failures on the forums and I am very concerned specially because I do road course every month. Good luck with the killer B, hopefully you can resolved the issue.
I don’t know the pricing details but this product will likely be relatively cheap if it comes to market based on the size and materials involved. Certainly a lot cheaper than whatever cost Porsche passes on for their integrated dry sumps on non GT cars. Totally agree on the marketing and product mismatch we’re seeing here. There’s a Toyota ad right now of a GR86 drifting down a spiral parking lot ramp but it’s wisely drifting to the left not the right, so maybe they know more than they’re leading on.
We’ve all been doing it wrong, these were designed for NASCAR.
"And another left turn!!!"
I’m not sure the FA24 can handle the banking even on left-hand corners!
Damn, that’s sad lol. I really want to own this car, and I already got my parts list ready for racing, but this situation is ruff and causing me extreme internal panic lol
@@jumboshirmp With enough money, you can fix anything😉
It just may have to be a swap.. hopefully not though lol
You guys are really tracking these cars? Guys these cars were meant to be slammed on bags, wide bodied, and have super loud tomei catbacks with pops and bang tunes. Do your research guys
Toyota GR Cup car mechanic here. We had 3 motors blow up on us at COTA and could not understand from looking at the data if the pressure drops were enough to cause catastrophic failure. Even the Toyota guys themselves were questioning the lower pressures. This is incredible information and really hope the engineers have found all this out also. Best of luck and stay safe!
Thanks so much for commenting. I’ve been wondering if we’d see reliability issues from the GR Cup cars and I knew there was one failure last weekend at practice, but I had no idea about that. Is that 3 motors within your team or the whole paddock?
@@900BRZ 3 motors just from our team, I imagine other teams had the same happened to them. We had 4 cars there that weekend and conditions weren't any help, hot as hell then it started raining on top. We honestly were thinking we were using the wrong weight of oil with the second one that blew up but by the third we figured it was an issue from the factory. Just glad that we're motor swapping experts now lol
Pass this video to Toyota them selves please.
Someone has mentioned they were doing that on my behalf. I don’t have any connections to do it myself.
Thanks for chiming in. This is the precisely the kind of info I want. What else can you tell use about the incidents? The more info we have the better.
As a previous engineer for an OEM ;
1. Thank you - very informative
2. They knew
As a current engineer in the industry, they absolutely knew, and don't give a shit about it at all. I will never buy a Subaru ever again.
@@PowerSports yup yup
It would be disappointing if they knew and disappointing if they didn’t know.
This seems typical Subaru. Surprised Toyota signed off on this. The fix for it seems simple and inexpensive. No, I wouldn’t buy a Subaru, this is just one more reason.
"impossibru"
As an engineer, I would say this is a well constructed case study
One missing piece for me would be an overview of the oil circuit diagram. For example with the 95/96 mitsubishi eclipse turbo motors they had moved the piston squirters to be in line or before the feed for the thrust bearing of the crankshaft which is what lead to the notorious crankwalk situation. If you can pinpoint which bearing is fed last and look at engines where failures are occuring and where your pressure sensors are relative to those elements there may be more insight to be had.
Or it's as simple as what has been presented here and further analysis isn't needed.
Every engineering student also calls themselves an engineer. Bad engineers also call themselves an engineer. Just so you know ;).
Ps: I'm a pretty mid engineer, and nobody should trust anything I say. 😅
Check out this post: www.gr86.org/threads/my-beginner-step-by-step-guide-to-make-fa24d-reliable.8181/page-3#post-133377
Well stated and I completely agree. Anyone want to by a GR86 base, white manual trans with 1100 miles?
@@turbo_brian Through my study on FA engines. there is a really interesting design Subaru decided to do to the FA engines. They decided that Main Journal 3 should feed oil to both rod journals 2 and 3, imo kinda a compromising design.
Can't wait to see your data once the KillerB baffle is installed. I'd love to cover the results with you in a future podcast on my channel.
Fingers extremely crossed we have a good result. Would be happy to report my findings with you guys.
We need to test any & all baffle plates that become available to see which one is the most effective! How many are there currently?
If the baffle helps I'm buying one immediately.
@@900BRZ would love a control test as well. And maybe a test with some overfilling of the oil.
@@900BRZbaffle alone wasnt enough..
Baffle is simply an oil scraper with main task to collect oil that were thrown around after the oil exiting crankshaft and conrod journal...
2nd...bigger and properly baffled oil sump is more important than crankcase baffle plate alone...
3rd.. to get to the real issue oil of unstable oilling in these boxer engine, first... We must understand that fa/fb series engine was born from development on ej series...
Thus u need to look in ej series subaru engine to find the core issue....
Issue 1: slow oil return to sump after being used throughout around the engine... Especially after the oil went onto camshaft and vvti assembly, it took long lateral journey from rocker cover and timing cover area back oil sump...
Issue 2: engine oil galley machining wasnt optimized.. esoecially the galley that supply engine oil into crankshaft journal #3 that also sharing the same oil supply for conrod #2 & #3
(all other crank and conrod journal gets their own dedicated oil supply galley)
In order to solve this issue...the engine need to be torn down, and hand porting needed to smooth down all those oil galley.... Especially these 3 area: oil pump outlet to oil filter, oil filter outlet into engine block and crank journal #3 (including conrod #2 & #3 galley)
This is really important work you’ve done. Thank you for contributing. I’m sharing as much as I can to spread the word.
Thank you, much appreciated
Wish we could tip you through bitcoin lightning. Thank you,
Send this to every branch/division of Toyota & Subaru if you can! If we can get them to solve these problems from factory, that would be a HUGE W for all of us.
@@CarsOverPeople Precisely! Pressure should be put on Toyota/Subaru to come up with the countermeasure ASAP.
When people say "do your own research", this is what they should mean. Excellent presentation.
2022 BRZ owner; thank you for you time and effort on this. The scientific nature and integrity here are apparent and you’ve done the community a huge service here. If the KillerB baffle data looks any significantly better than stock, they’re gonna sell like hotcakes. Subbing for further updates :)
ive yet to see a baffle that helps with oil at track temp.
@@auricauric8150 not yet. BUT all the current baffles afaik generally prioritize minimizing side to side sloshing; this doesn’t appear to be the issue affecting oiling. If somebody designs a baffle that can prevent oil from surging back into the timing case, that may make a significant difference. Hard to say as even with the data here there isn’t a 100% smoking gun, but perhaps some baffle that prevents upward flow into the timing case OR a different pan which changes the angle at the front of the pan such that surging into the timing case occurs MAY be enough to at least minimize the issue. Only one way to find out.
@@tazered4life617or just buy a GR Corolla? Lmao?
@@SK-tr1wo uhhh besides the extra roughly $10k they cost sticker, plus they’re awd and way more front heavy. GR Corolla is sick but you can’t compare an awd hot hatch to a RWD sports car.
We have, but not one that completely solve the problem.
Absolutely incredible work. What surprised me most is that significant pressure drops can be observed on EXTREMELY low grip setups. The guys that are running fast 200TW tires/Hoosiers, and 9.5"+ wide wheels are going to have massive drops in pressure.
Yeah I think that was the big difference between what I’m presenting here and what a lot of people in the community have been discussing. The standard assumption was you’d only run into problems with 200 TW or grippier tires and advanced drivers.
@williamrori1274 Would be interesting to see how our hyundai N 2.0 engines do oil pressure wise in turns and in WOT acceleration mode. Is there anyway you can put that video out ?
@@velocityvibezzz I could defintely do one similar to this. However, I only have a AIM Solo 2, not the DL which can record custom CAN channels. My EK1 Lite may be able to, but the it'll be closer to 1Hz. I'll look into it
One interesting way to visualize this would be a g-g plot with oil pressure imposed on top of it as a color map.
This way you may be able to see what the exact longitudinal/lateral accelerations for oil starvation looks like and that can help influence baffle design (ie figure out which direction most of the damping needs to happen). It can help isolate corner entry, apex, or exit. But you can also extract a mu at which oil starvation occurs thus you can deduce exactly what grip levels will cause the pressure drop.
Of course, maybe most of the time the oil is spent sloshing so maybe this won’t work.
Also as an engineer myself - a presentation, particularly around some analysis, with a conclusion slide to kick things off is excellent.
Good piece of work.
Man what a world class production. Impeccable methodology, and shockingly good driving. Nice job guys. Just got my BRZ, still in break in. I'd be interested to hear about that prototype baffle. Please share the results
Will do! Testing the baffle on July 1 back at Thunderhill.
@@900BRZ Watch out for the heat - forecast shows 110F in Willows this weekend.
For real. Owned the car for less than a week then this video comes out 😅
@@gotfood9389for real. Got mine 3 weeks ago. Now I find this out.
Really well done, brother. I think there is no arguing with the conclusion.
As a statistics major as well as fellow car enthusiast and FA24 owner (22 WRX), I am amazed by the thoroughness of the experiment. The way you have controlled the factors, taken everything into consideration, hypothesized and substantiated the claims is excellent! I am heavily invested in your experiment and am going to following it closely!
22 WRX is a FA24DIT with oil pan shared with the Crosstrek, Forester, Impreza, Legacy, Outback & WRX. This video is about the FA24D, which has a different oil pan and pickup, etc.
As a 2022 GR86 owner, I cant thank you enough for this work you've done here. Really liked the high level overview. Keep this up and let us know how the future tests go!
Thank you!
There is also windage from the crank shaft turning in a clock wise direction. This is why the base model C7 Corvette was electronically restricted when it sensed high Gs going around right hand corners, usually occurring when stickier tires were added.
That’s really interesting and I hadn’t considered that. Will think about that some more.
Could lowering the oil level help with this? I mean still above min. level on the gauge but not topped up.
@@Ariskot007I'm not sure of the theory behind reducing oil system volume if you are trying to prevent low oil pressure?
Yeah we have started doing experiments with higher oil levels and will continue to explore that. Lower levels are going to result in less oil available to the pickup and worse oiling performance.
@@900BRZ Well, if I'm understand corectly the phenomenom of windage, it is due to proximity of the oil level to the crankshaft, resulting in whipping/foaming.
I hope these tests result in aftermarket parts that solve this issue. You sir are doing the lords work here.
Amen
Ok, but I doubt a baffle will fix the issue, they should go directly to an Accusump oil accumulator.
Miles from the video with the FA20 is installing an accusump. We’ll see how it goes. But it’s a more involved solution with more downsides.
Such an amazing car, with a huge performance flaw.. its so weird to see the graph dip in every right turn, but its fine for literally everything else. That data is so important and handy.
Luckily for us with the head baffling, seems like the killer b pan is a easy fix
Killer b pan didn’t work.
Theres gotta be a way with aftermarket, no? Will Toyota Subaru address this is the real question...
Real, pure R&D. Just like old times, improving on stock. Just the instruments are fancier today. Love this!
You have no idea how many people this will help. Amazing work👊
Words alone cannot thank you enough for doing this. I very much respect and appreciate your efforts here.
I’ve owned my 23 GR86 for about 5 weeks now and just completed my first HPDE last week. Looking forward to your results with the proto baffle.
Congrats on your first HPDE! That was me just last December. Will report back on the baffle soon.
Dang that’s scary seeing that pressure drop! Crazy amount of work put into this video. Thanks for the knowledge
Fantastic job! This data tracks with my observations and testing as well. That is, I don't think RTV in the pickup is a big deal here (however, an important one as mentioned), but just the lackluster oiling capabilities of the FA24. Again nice job! I might test out one of the KillerB parts as well 👌
This was fun. The oil sloshing forward can't be the ultimate answer though. That would be happening no matter which way you turn. And the pressure drop was immediate, if you turned to the right. The pick-up offset could maybe do that, but man, that seems like they called things way to close. Hopefully you figure out a band aid fix, but because the drop in pressure when turning right happened every time and immediately, there might be something inherently wrong with that block or maybe just the oil pump capacity. It would be interesting to hear from an engine designer. Thanks for doing this. Well done.
I don’t claim to have a definitive answer, but these are the best theories I’ve heard. We’ve reproduced this in the two FA24s in this video and one other friend has similar data in another FA24. So I don’t believe this is a one-off manufacturing issue with a single car. I would love for a fluid dynamics expert to enter the chat 😉
@@900BRZ Fluid Dynamics folks generally don't bother with how oil sloshing inside engines and the pickup sucks dry under particular G loads and revs.
They would be more involved about how a fluid or gasses flow or behave in various conditions, pressures.. Hard Core physics calculations and computer simulations.
It would take way longer to set up the FD computer simulations and run all the variables and scenarios on them.. Than it takes to install cameras inside the pan and do some trial and error with sensors and additional baffles similar to what you already started.
@@900BRZ Would a swivelling pickup potentially fix this? they make them that are setup in such a way that they move with the oil, basically. Also, have you tried overfilling the engine with oil? I am not sure about boxer engines, but I know in the cars that i have tracked where I have had to deal with oil starvation issues, overfilling by a quart or so doesn't harm the engine, but helps massively with these issues, YMMV obviously, and overfilling is never a good idea if you don't know whether it will harm the motor.
I would get some sheet metal, a welder, and make a much larger capacity winged baffled sump with a swivel pickup as a final resort. But that is a big job and doesn't help all the other people.
@@russelljimenez4715before going to a swivel pickup a think a 4 gate setup welded into the pan might be something to look into, probably in a diamond shape since it seems it's only on those right handers with lift or braking. A normal square with a gate facing forward may not close in time.
@@russelljimenez4715overfilling the engine withe oil can result in foaming and end up being just as bad as running an engine completely dry of oil. Next time you do this have a look at your dipstick after your drive and if you see a lot of bubble and froth no good.. even worse if oil has changed colour
I don’t own one of these cars yet but I’ve been contemplating selling my Miata and buying one. I’ve been following along on this issue for months now and this video is BY FAR the best and most conclusive data shown. Great work and I’ll absolutely be watching for the update when you test the new pan from Killer B.
This video convinced me to shelve my plans for a used (or new) GR86. I can't believe Subaru can't design a reliable boxer engine, its their whole thing and they failed this very important issue.
Hopefully we figure out a solution soon and you can reboot your plans
Baffled sump with a deeper pan capacity? That how VW and Porsche solved the issue.🤷🏼
Thank you very much for putting in this work and publishing your findings. Huge for the FA24 community. If there is any way at all you can conduct a similar test with a 22+ WRX, many owners will be very grateful.
Unfortunately I don’t have access to one. I think the best thing we can do is demystify the process of oil pressure logging so more people can do it.
Well done. Thank you for the science and showing the OEMs how to test a car. I look forward to the next test results. It would be interesting to contact the GR Cup people and get their deep sump oil pan and add that into the stream of interventions. Maybe the solution is just a larger capacity oil pan and a longer oil pick up. It would be interesting to test your cars on turn 9 at VIR, an uphill R turn at about 105mph. Thanks again.
Amazing work! These issues are still enough to steer me away from these cars for the time being though.
Shared the word in Australia just now. Thank you for your efforts, it has concluded my thoughts on this great car. Look forward to its growth as a platform for racing for the years to come!
Wow, you guys did a great job! That is a lot of work. This looks like something that would be produced for a court hearing for a class action lawsuit. 😅
It's inadmissible
This is incredibly well done and informative. Thank you!
Thank you so much for all this data! I love seeing actual science at play instead of just throwing assumptions around. I just got a new brz a few months ago and I have been a little concerned about all the oiling issues I was seeing with these cars. Again, can't thank you enough just gave you a sub to try to support you on this journey to figure out what can possibly fix all the blown motors on track.
Guaranteed fix would be to buy a car actually designed for the track. You bought a normal car with flashy marketing.
Thanks for your efforts guys! I have a new BRZ arriving Monday and won’t consider tracking it until I can address what you’ve found ❤
'23 GR86 MT owner. I'm really glad you are doing this and I really hope a solution arises. I bought the car specifically for the race track and couldn’t be more frustrated. I was hoping to have a fun daily that with some upgraded pads and fluids could be a capable track toy, even in stock form. $35k later and I may never even get to track the car for fear of blowing an engine that I cannot afford to replace…
Let’s see how the new baffle does. If it works well, it will be a very affordable way to hopefully get reliability on track.
@@900BRZbrace yourself for the 100s of people messaging you as we impatiently wait for the results of the KB baffle.
Hate to be that guy but why tf would you buy a car with tracking in mind while knowing you can't afford major repairs?
The official STi baffled oil pan is part number ST11109Z2000. Just put that on and it should do the trick, one assumes. It appears to be part of the "kit" for the GR86 BRZ Cup in Japan, so if it's good enough for a race series...
It would be cheaper to replace the short block every year on this platform than pay for the consumables on something like SS 1LE if you track frequently enough.
No click bait, thank you!
Very useful info, much appreciated
Thank you for sharing your documentation. I hope a solution for oil pressure drops and reduction in bearing failure can be accomplished. I know we all love how these cars drive and give us so much enjoyment.
I hope Toyobaru sees this and award you a brand new GR86 because you are doing their homework for them. And I hope they fix the issue for the facelift.
They know where to find me haha
And for everyone waiting for the part 2: the KillerB baffle did NOT create any significant improvement in right hand oil pressure drops
Back to the drawing board.
@@MarkJCarruthersNo, just no more boxers 😂 Subaru is stuck on these crappy engines for ? heritage sake? Isn't that the same excuse Harley uses to not switch to OHC engines?
@@izzy9022the engine should’ve had a turbo as well, is 2023…
That video is available here: ruclips.net/video/8YoVsDFpaTA/видео.html
@@izzy9022 boxers have a low center of gravity, no need to ditch them. Maybe they should get in contact with a couple of Porsche engineers or something.
First time on your channel, and I don't own a brz, but the educational factor of your video is what caught my eyes when scolling yt today. Nice to see some actual testing and theory crafting as to what's causing these issues. Good work!
Thank you! The goal was to be accessible and as objective as possible.
The FA20 had really crappy oil pressure consistency, and I cannot believe that it's WORSE on the FA24. That's horrendous. Thanks for making this vid, I hope it gets spread like wild.
Fantastic video, thank you so much for putting these cars to the test and in the danger zone for the sake of other owners.
Shared this on the /r/cars subreddit. This is so valuable for FA24 owners, as well as those looking into the platform as their future track car. Thank you for taking the time to make this and do it in this format.
Thank you for the data and all the work putting this together. I've heard about this right hand turns leading to oil starvation on old EJ25 turbo engines (like in my 06 STI), and I thought this was largely addressed in FA series engines. Maybe it was a step in the right direction for FA20, but it looks Subaru went straight backward and ended up exactly where they were with FA24...
wow, can't really argue with this - great job, very clear/concise, I hope this opens some eyes for workable solutions - thank you for putting this together! As others have mentioned, I wonder what results you'd get in spirited canyon driving - I have a feeling not great😬
Great analysis. I feel like we really need to get our hands on a GR86 cup car to see what they've done there.
I didn’t want to present this in the main findings because I don’t have the actual data, but I did chat with one of the teams and they confirmed that they do log the oil PSI and they said “we haven’t seen below 20 PSI but it gets right down there.” So I believe it’s possible/likely that their baffling solution is not solving these pressure drops either.
Oh interesting. Thanks for exploring this
How much PSI is considered safe? So cup car think 20psi is ok?
@@Wesley-ui3dw I’m not sure what kind of support they have from Toyota. It’s very possible that Toyota would replace their engines if they fail due to oiling issues and they’d sweep it under the rug. Also they won’t expect to get more than 1 season out of the engines. One engine failed in practice at the last event but it was replaced before quali. No public info on the cause.
I deeply appreciate the thorough investigation and wonderful explanation of whats going on - its people like you that make the car community that one little bit better every day. Thanks!
awesome job! hope a lot of folks watch this one and that between the Killer B baffle and other input there's a good solution to be found 🙏
An Aussie racing web site (don't remember which one) stated that certain cars would not be allowed on the track without an oil pan baffle. Among these were the 2022 BRZ and GR86. They indicated the problem was oil starvation. I've installed a Tomei baffle in my 2022 GR86 and after 4 track days my FA24 is still in one piece. Two of the baffles they recommended were the Tomei and the GReddy.
It’s not just any baffle though. Will be sharing more test results with baffled and folks can decide for themselves which ones they are happy with.
Very well put together case study. Subbed to see the results of the swapped parts after. Thanks for doing the hard work guys.
Thanks very much for your testing and analysis! Great work.
Thanks for sharing this! Super excited to see the results of the prototype.
Wow, you are doing God's work 💪 i was going to pickup a brz or 86 as a daily, but I was concerned about this problem, so i went with a mazda. I really appreciate your work 🙏
MX-5?
Well set up test, executed and analyxed with full transparency. Measuring is knowing and you have shown good work here. Well done !
Just want to heap on the pile of thank yous. This is really important stuff. Hoping we can keep making more noise about this.
Excellent presentation and information. People need to share this and post it in as many forums/groups as possible.
Your testing methodology used here is very informative and impressive. Thank you, I look forward to seeing the results with the KillerB oilpan
Bravo, great presentation
Do we need a fix??
Now this is how you hold them accountable with some no nonsense, clear-cut, you can't weasel your way out of this one evidence. Bravo my good man
it's actually sickening how subaru and toyota are staying silent on the issue, they should be helping out to find a solution. Unless they know there is none.
This is great. In future analysis it could be helpful to display the data graphically and use some stats to analyze it. You could use area under the curve as an analogue for the oil pressure drop and compare the aoc from the testing cars to control car. This could then give you a ratio which correlates to the degree at which the oil pressure is worse in the testing cars than the control. We can see it in the videos but the numbers can be very helpful when presenting this is a short format/ elevator talk. If you have any stats friends they might do this for you.
That’s a cool idea. One of my friends made a little web service that attempts to create a glance-able view of this kind of data: track-build.com/oil-pressure-analysis
I think the coloring on the track map is based on absolute pressure levels but your area under the curve idea is an interesting way to generalize that.
Another engineer chiming in(lol), specifically race engine design (and Subaru nerd); this was a nicely constructed and conducted test.
I've actually already started a baffle for my own FA24DIT but I'll be curious to see what Chris (KillerB) comes up with.
Thank you for this. I was planning to buy a GR86 as my daily driver and part time track car but having a car with restrictions even though it is marketed as a "track car" doesn't sink well with me.
It should be perfectly fine for a daily and occasional track car. Just make sure you’re topped up on oil before tracking.
Why even take the risk with the car? Toyota North America isn’t readily approving warranty work and the second hand values will probably tank if cars begin to spin bearings out of warranty. I’d look at the last Gen car, modifying old BMWs, or just getting a used Mustang GT or Camero SS. Maybe find an old Porsche that’ll hold its value as long as you’re putting less than 5,000 miles a year on it.
@@avery4528 Exactly. Said the same thing on a GR86 subreddit, and they did not like it one bit. 😂😂😂
Just go to the oval ring counterclockwise
Tier 1 Engineer here, this was a very well done engineering trail study. I foresee a recall for Subaru in the near future.
Unlikely they will do a recall IMO. Hopefully they cover warranty rebuilds.
Mine failed after full throttle acceleration in a straight line with 34k on it after jinxing myself by calling the issue overblown. No tracking, performance AS tires, so rarely over 1g, and oil always checked and changed every 5k, driven by an advanced manual driver. Warranty taking care of it and they're blaming RTV. Like the video, I believed RTV wasn't sole cause, but a contributor until mine blew in a straight line and I started thinking maybe it WAS just RTV. After seeing this, I'm thinking it's more likely 34k miles of accumulated damage being as most corners on the street are right hand turns for highway ramps, plus probably some assistance from RTV. Looking forward to results with the baffle.
Sorry to hear that. I definitely believe in the theory of damage to the bearings accumulating. So sometimes we may have a smoking gun type failure where the engine actually spins a bearing in the middle of a sustained right-hander, for example, but we might find they also let go in other scenarios.
@@900BRZ Thanks. Stuff happens, I just want this to be figured out so it can be fixed. I don't want to have to sell it before the warranty is up and get something more boring and likely more expensive!
Great video, this is such a clear demonstration that something is very wrong within the FA24 motor. Hoping your baffle works, FWIW I've owned 2014 gen 1 since new and have done approx. 45 track days with 0W30 oil, a cooler and Greddy sump baffle and I've not had any engine issues, all my local tracks are clockwise too.
I don't even have this car or platform and I found this video very informative
That’s great to hear. I wanted to focus on objective facts as much as possible and bring people along with us in our research.
Thank you very much for your efforts, I'm glad i stumbled upon this
Really well done, thanks for putting this together! Hope you can send this data to engineers at Subaru/Toyota to review. Wonder if this is something they didn't see in testing, something they thought was acceptable, or some other explanation. Another question that might shed light on this is what about the 1st gen FA20 allowed it to see less severe pressure drops in RH turns?
Yeah we don’t know how to explain the difference yet, but there are design differences outside of the greater bore on the FA24.
Very nicely done. What is so compelling about these results is just how repeatable they are across drivers, and cars, and that the drop on the FA20 is smaller. The fact that this occurs in right hand turns with a change in elevation, and not in left hand turns is especially significant. All of these tests are done with the oil topped up, so this is a 'best case' result. Normal oil levels will often be lower. If the car is not exactly level when the dip stick is read, the reading may be 'off'. Also track consumption can be 'high'. Some BRZ/86 teams report oil consumption of 4 fluid ounces per hour in competition. While it would be prohibitively expensive to test a condition that you believe puts the engine at risk of catastrophic failure, the idea that slightly lower oil levels might lead to much lower oil pressure drops, of this type, I find wholly credible.
Looking forward for the next video
@900BRZ - I'd love to see you guys test an FA24 WRX for on-track oil pressure loss the same way you tested in this video. Are you planning to do that? I noticed your July 5 instagram post says "Killer B is now investigating the differences between the FA24 engines in the WRX and BRZ." It seems to me the first step of that investigation would be to verify for sure how the FA24 WRX behaves during identical testing to what you show in this video. Great job so far, you and the other guys working on this!
I don’t have a WRX available but would also love to see them tested.
i know a guy who has a 22 gr86 that tracks it pretty frequently and has put down a very impressive 1:52 (possibly a 1:51 at this point) at The Ridge in shelton, wa. I am keen to know if he ends up putting a new engine in that car. as far as I know he hasn't modified the powertrain at all, most likely relying on the oem warranty. i want to love this car despite its downfalls but the oiling issues are a redflag i will not ignore.
edit: man that's wild only 60psi at wot, my shelby does minimum 80-100 even at 210f
different weights of oil can drastically change oil pressures. thicker oil runs at higher psi
The Ridge may be biased to left-handers, but its largest crest does happen to be a right-hander and I’ve personally blown an FA20 on that track. The FA20 was known to have oiling problems, so it makes me sad to hear that the FA24 is even worse. (It’s news to me because after too many FA20 problems I swapped away from the boxer and never looked back.)
IMHO the only real fix is to swap the engine or sell the car. I hope your friend continues to have good luck with their engine!
@@snarky-drive-by That's my local track too and I've been thinking about the corkscrew and the run up the hill (can't remember turn numbers as I've been away for a while). Both of those being right-handers with elevation changes scares me. I've just picked up a GR86 and now I'm debating if I'll ever take it to the track. Super huge bummer.
If this works, patent this and sell it to Toyota/Subaru and get paid. This is literally keeping this vehicle from being my somewhat affordable track option. Fantastic work and looking forward to the results.
It’s not my baffle, it’s from Killer B Motorsport. I just volunteered to test it for them. They posted on forums earlier this year that they were looking for beta testers.
Insanely high quality set up and data. thank you.
I was 1K 👍!
Great video, testing strategy, and data logging. I'm sure that this will help bring attention to the issue.
Im curious what adding an extra .5 to 1 quart of oil would do. It was something that GM recommended for track use of the Camaro, not sure of their reasoning though.
This is what we do in S2000s and it works. Keep it about a quart over full and no pan baffle needed.
Thank you, highly appreciate what you have done here. This really give us a good insight into this FA24 issue. Looking forward to your data and result with Killer B prototype baffle 👍 keep up the good work
absolutely amazing work here, huge respect to your friend who produced the PCB to communicate to CANBUS to enable logging. some more wrinkly brains at work on this than subaru engineers designing these damn engines. this really is a massive cause for concern, and an overwhelming amount of evidence to stack up to a class action lawsuit against subaru/toyota. this is not only a threat to drivers on track, i can think of several on and offramps where i am pulling even more sustained right hand G's than thunder hill can afford you.
sage work seriously.
Yes, @nostreetracing86 really made this whole test possible.
Very informative and well laid out video. Thanks.
need to look into Canton accusumps , or other brand oil accumulators . its a canister which holds several quarts of oil under pressure, when the sensor senses a low pressure , it bleeds off the stored oil into the oiling system maintaining the wanted pressure , and then rebuilds pressure and stores the oil . can also be used on a switch to pre oil the engine .
Yeah I think that may be a future solution, but I want to do simple mechanical interventions first. Accumulators add additional failure points and maintenance so they won’t be as good of a solution for as many people.
Do you think the heavier oil in the older FA20 was a factor in maintaining that oil pressure? Or is it because the oiling system really is that much more robust?
In a perfect world (or if I was designing a test with a larger budget) we would have swapped to 5W30 in that car as well. In practice, it’s unlikely that there would be a big difference from the weight. You’d expect to see slightly higher pressures overall with the 0W40 weight at temperature as a result of slightly higher viscosity. But I’d expect the main benefit to be more residual oil on the bearings during the pressure drop. It’s hard to say definitively with the added variable and only testing 1 FA20.
Very good point. Tracking anything below w40 is looking for trouble.
@@dscpat I’m not totally convinced about that yet, although I can be convinced otherwise. I am running Motul 8100 EFE partially because it has a high HTHS viscosity at 150°C, which is a test that tries to describe performance at critical locations such as bearings, where there is high shear rates and high temps. 8100 has an HTST viscosity of 3.5 mPa and you can definitely get w40 oils with less than that.
@@900BRZ indeed, you are right. I would try a higher viscosity spec oil nonetheless, plus slight overfill. Again, just tinkering w you here.
Btw, gt86 cup manual recommend ELF HTX 825 10W60.
Fantastic vid! Subbed to see how the prototype will work
Me too
The problem is oil control. Is to much oil going to the heads ? Is the oil not returning fast enough from the heads ? Is there a windage tray ? Baffles with oil control doors ? Larger diameter oil pickup tube required ? Larger capacity truncated sump required ? Seems the problem is exacerbated in right turns and the longer the turn the more it climbs the left side of the sump and away from the pickup probably pulling in air/foam. The other problem is one main bearing is supplying two connecting rods and another feed needs to be supplied to that main bearing to bump up oil volume. The questions I give are to help you find the solution and these question are statements providing direction. Porsche has had a similar problem, but with a lot more than oiling, so go take a look @ the M97 & 97 vs the replacement engine the 9A1 where the problems got solved. The FA20 & FA24 only need to fix the oiling issues I mention. Good luck on this and it's fixable.
Great points and things I need to spend more time thinking about. I’ve read about people improving the oiling on FA20s for forced injection by changing the bore on some of the galleries to increase flow rate to the main bearings. I feel that it’s difficult and expensive to do that without basically just guessing unless you can do CFD work to prove it.
@900BRZ fa engine doesn't have priority oiling system like EJ. EJ feeds its oil to the main journals first, then halfway through they split off 90 degrees to each head.
Where FA has 3 specific oil ports, first goes straight to the driver head, 2nd to the crank, 3rd to the passenger head. Such that driver head is robbing oil pressure from the crank.
A very interesting design for sure. Hence we don't see a lot of videos on the first gen trying to rev to 9000 rpm. Except fully customized element tunning engine.
Yeah have read about the non-prioritized oiling. I probably won’t be the one to do experiments with changing that through changing oil passage sizes, but interested in seeing if that helps.
There is an internal windage tray, but we’re not sure that it’s completely reducing the windage effect. We are seeing these pressure drops starting around 6000 RPM, so it’s possible it’s having an influence.
I want to try out the Kazama baffle, which has a 1-way door to try and keep oil available to the pickup. Changing the pickup itself requires removing the timing cover, so going to avoid that for now. I’m not a performance shop, I’m just self-funding this, so not interesting in tearing down the engine unless I have to.
Phenomenal work collecting and explaining all this data sir! I've been working on my oiling system also since the EJs are also notorious (specially on track) to have oiling issues. Thanks again for putting this together!!!
As someone who competes in the 86Cup and running the same suspension and tire setup I'm curious to see the results with the baffle. Is it possible to log oil pressure using an AIM Solo II DL without adding an aftermarket sensor? See you at TH on 7/1 ?
No, you need a aftermarket oil pressure sensor (as OEM doesn't have one, OEM oil switch is just a ON/OFF switch). You also need a Analog to CAN injector board to inject the sensor data to CAN bus so the AIM Solo DL2 can log it.
@@nostreetracing86 Thanks!
Yes I’ll be at TH on July 1! And of course, @nostreetracing86 is correct
What a terrific design of experiment It is a bit of shame that even Toyota's engineers did not find out this. I feel like getting back with the xbox 360 thermal issues and circle of death.
Thanks for your interest!
You mentioned the pressure is controlled to a max of about 60psi. What system regulates this for the engine and could it be getting false readings from oil sloshing mid corner?
This is a good question and I don’t have a complete understanding of this. I’ll ask around.
My understanding is that absolute limit of the oil pressure system is set by the pressure relief value, which I believe activates at over 100 PSI, so it would mainly be used in a cold-start.
Something else is limiting the pressure to ~60 PSI at temperature on track. I believe this is the pressure the pump is capable of producing given a certain oil viscosity and temperature. But I’ve also heard that the pump is overbuilt, which would seem to contradict that. I’m a little out of my depths trying to understand the fluid dynamics behind it, but it may be possible to explain that contradiction by saying the pump is overbuilt but a boundary layer forms that prevents the pump from building more pressure.
Thank you for putting in the work, I know this took a lot of time. Looking forward to this test with a baffle installed.
As a VB WRX owner, this is greatly appreciated. I will only do left hand donuts from now on.🤣
Yes honestly not a bad idea
@@900BRZ but seriously thank you for this objective data! commenting again to help raise awareness. Personally I like taking on ramps pretty aggressively, this info will make me think twice and the time you took to put this together is much appreciated!
Bro you nailed this. Plays like a good pubmed article.
Wow that sucks, I can't imagine buying a slow simple car for it to be reliable, and then having this happen..
Lmao yeah
Great job on the video, findings and evidence to show this, will be following to see your results with the prototype baffle from KillerB!
This is really needed for all 86/BRZ owners
Thank you! Fingers crossed
Temporary stop gap solution: Attack right hand corners 1 gear higher 😂
That’s a reasonable approach and I’ve seen less pressure losses with short shifting. You may or may not lose time depending on the corner.
Thank you for this very important work up and analysis. Subscribed and will be following closely. Fingers crossed the prototype baffle shows desired outcomes.
What a video!! Fantastic stuff. Shame subaru missed this during the development of the car.
One thing I notice at 10:00 is the drop is not as rough on the uphill section of T8, but as you crest it gets worse. From everything I have seen it seems a redesigned pan is necessary.
Hope Toyota and Subaru are watching this. Excellent work. Thank you!
This is huge, I appreciate all the hard work you out into this. Hopefully the baffle helps. If so im buying one.
Hopefully Subaru feels the same way and pays royalties to these guys for each car. It should be standard if it works.
Thank you, 900BRZ for your work and dedication to test and monitor GR86 oil pressure. It seems, that like the GT86, the GR86 have some issue that need to be solve ....by the community. We solved the issue with a dedicated oil cooler for the gt86, now we must find the good way to track the gr86. It will become a very good platform, I am convinced.
> It will become a very good platform, I am convinced.
Very much the goal!
Thank you for doing this. I got rod knock on my fa20 the same day I missed an exit on the highway and had to take 3 right hand clover exits. I had just gotten new coilovers and tires so I sent it a bit hard. It started knocking later that day.
hmm... the FA20 only showed brief spikes v/s FA24 with the actual drop in psi. Which year is your fa20 and did you have an oil cooler ?
@@Arunkumar-bg5xk ‘17. It happened at 45k miles. I did 3, 270 degree right turns separated by 200m or so at a fairly high rpm. In the video it was a short drop but it also wasn’t a 270 degree turn x3.
Edit: and no oil cooler
@@everythingvinyl bloody hell.. and what oil were you using ?
I watch your video and you did an excellent job isolating a fault and demonstrating the engine design flaw. I want to thank you for what you did. Now to the bad (unrelated to you). Subaru can't build a reliable engine. Look at Porsche, using flat six for over 60 years and they can figure out how to fix the oil starvation, they even run two oil reservoirs. My concern with this engine is how Toyota marketed the GR86, they put out TV commercials doing drifting to sell you the product but they haven't stepped forward to offer a solution or to release a TSB(technical service bulletin ) or a recall. I hate Killer B for their prices, they make decent products but they are not competitive price wise. There are companies out there that make electric oil pumps and water pumps, many that is the ticket. I am talking about external electrical pump with an additional oil reservoir. I have a GR86 arriving this week and I have been reading all the engine failures on the forums and I am very concerned specially because I do road course every month. Good luck with the killer B, hopefully you can resolved the issue.
I don’t know the pricing details but this product will likely be relatively cheap if it comes to market based on the size and materials involved. Certainly a lot cheaper than whatever cost Porsche passes on for their integrated dry sumps on non GT cars.
Totally agree on the marketing and product mismatch we’re seeing here. There’s a Toyota ad right now of a GR86 drifting down a spiral parking lot ramp but it’s wisely drifting to the left not the right, so maybe they know more than they’re leading on.
Very good video. It is causing great influence in our community in Spain.
We look forward to your new tests with great interest.
Good luck.