Do $$$ Turntable Cartridges Make Sense?
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- Опубликовано: 18 мар 2023
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Do $$$ Turntable Cartridges Make Sense?
In this video, we'll be discussing the do's and don'ts of buying a turntable cartridge. We'll be looking at the different types of turntables and what factors are most important when choosing one.
If you're looking to upgrade your turntable, then this is the video for you! We'll discuss the different types of cartridges and what factors are most important when choosing one. We'll also give you some tips on how to choose the right turntable cartridge for your needs.
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So far in my upgrade path when it comes to turntables, the biggest difference has been in upgrading the phono preamp, even when using MM cartridges. Started out with a really cheap one ($90) with my first turntable. Upgraded to a slightly better one from Clearaudio ($350) and it was a world of difference. Later upgraded that one to a new Clearaudio ($700) with a similar "jump" in quality. Latest upgrade was a Decware Zen Phono ($1500ish) and it is simply stunning. The ability to roll tubes makes it very easy to tune the sound to your taste. The jump from a $200 MM cartridge to a $900 MM cartridge, while it was an improvement definitely wasn't as much of an improvement as the phono stage.
I ❤ my Decware ZP3 phono stage. I’m very happy using a Soundsmith MI Carmen cartridge.
Haven’t even watched the whole video and I’m already appreciating SO much your knowledge and demo here. Perfect job! Thanks!
I moved to a Sutherland TZ Vibe, Transimpedance phono preamp. It only works with low output moving coil cartridges, but no loading to worry about. Sounds phenomenal and plug and play. I'm using a Hana ML cart currently. This Ortofon 2M Black LVB MM looks pretty awesome though and I might have to give it a try.
I've been using an ADC mm cart from the early '80s and it sounds awesome, very engaging. Can still get very, very good styli when needed.
This is the type of review your big bro loves. Nice work.
Perfect timing for me on this. I've been going down the rabbit hole and I am going to take a breather and think differently about this. Last thing I wanted was something else to plug in.
There is no way I'm going back to MM. I have Hana SL at the moment that I totally love the sound of. My preamplifier has a very good MC input so happy all round. I would suggest people get a good phono pre, if they can afford one. Enjoyment level through the roof. Good video. Thank you.
Hey Ron, I just got a 250 LVB and after having played it for about 20 some odd hours, it came into its own and I am impressed with its performance. The additional benefit of having it is my ability to replace the stylus when needed as opposed to having to get a whole new cartridge as with many Moving Coils.
For me the biggest difference in sound quality was the phono stage. I had a cheap NAD and replaced it with a Musical Surroundings Phonomena 2 which has all the settings. The difference was jaw dropping even with a middle tier Grado cart. I then got the Grado Statement Reference 2 cart and I am very happy with the sound :)
I also have your phono stage with a Hana EH on the Technics SL1200G. Beautiful sounding in my system.
The Phonomena 2 is an excellent phono preamp. I have one as well.
This video was epic!! The LVB is my eventual end game tracker and you covered the important points in this topic. I have gone the other way with separate phono stages, and even very high end tables….and you know what? My stripped back system with a Marantz 40N and AT-LP7 gets me so close and is dead quiet ….it’s just not worth adding several thousand dollars to go separates with MC trackers and phono stages. When I get the LVB I will be done…thanks again Ron (Great “Record” content 😅!)
This was definitely clarifying and to some extent mind blowing - although the LVB MM is far from an ordinary MM cartridge. This was also one of the most understandable explanations of the differences between MM and MC pick-ups although I’ve always understood the physical differences. A great video. I was with you all the way. Thank you.
I’m in the process of looking into a new TT, most likely the Rega Planar 6 with Ania MC. I recently bought the Hegel V10 phono stage as I got it on a good offer. Your video has got me thinking. 🤔
I currently have the Ortofon Bronze and love it. I moved up from the Blue about 6 months ago. The Bronze is more refined, detailed, and forgiving of a record's condition. It's less sibilant too. Lastly, I thought I'd lose a little bass going to the micro-line stylus, but that was not the case. I also have a tube phono preamp called the Magi Phonomenal that only works with MM cartridges so the Black could be my future cartridge someday. Thanks as always for your videos!
I love your Videos. This one is so good. Good job there..:-) Cheers from germany.
Hello…Ron, Do another video on the Dynavector Cartridges….I purchased one because of you…..Thanks!!!!! I’m still in love DV 20/2 Low😊
What I found out to be true in my situation was to upgrade to a separate phono stage. One that would give me the option to run a MM or MC cartridge. I did that before I upgrade to a MC cart from a MM cart. The difference was huge in my system. That was me using a better phonostage with a Mofi Studio Tracker cartridge. And I got many more pleasurable hours out of that cartridge.
I was very lucky to get one of the best MM cartridges ever made - the Stanton 981 LZS, with its custom-made Stanton stepup amplifier (powered by two 9V box batteries). No needs for an MC stage, and the sound is sublime.
I have a transimpedance phono stage, I am limited to only very low voltage and impedance cartridges, the Stratos would be to high and forget MMs. Very frustrating because of the limited choice, but this phono pre is so scary good that for now it’s remaining in my system (2 years now) and I’ve had many great phono preamps in the past.
I have had a couple of lomc carts in a row including my current Air Tight PC7, about $2500, the most I have ever spent on a cartridge. I moved to mc carts without ever trying a very good mm. Next time I need a cart I should try one.
Great information, and I'm shocked to hear that New Record Day doesn't review recordings du jour. 😢 However to do use analog moving coil for all my streamed music listening. Thanks
Great video. I currently run a Sumiko Amethyst (MM) on my Technics SL-1200GR through a Music Hall PA2.2 phono preamp, to my vintage Luxman R-115 stereo receiver (I should try the Luxman's phono preamp). It all sounds amazingly good with a quality recorded, engineered, and pressed record. Better than a CD??? I will go with great different. I have thought about MC upgrade, but I think I will get a different MM possibly this one or the regular black. Thanks again!
I’ve been on the fence is going with a higher end MM or a MC. The LVB is what I have been looking at and this review seals the deal. I’ve watched enough of your reviews to know you don’t just hype everything. I have the Rega MM phono amp so I already have a decent phono. With the money I save from not buying a MC phono amp.. well I might have to pick up a few new records.
Great topic! IF I was using an integrated amp, and IF it had MM and MC inputs, and IF the MC circuit was fixed, I would absolutely buy a nice MM cartridge and call it a day.
Thanks, I'm using a ortofon 2m bronze on a Clearaudio Concept with satisfy tonearm. It sounds terrific. I was looking at the moving coil cartridge soon, but the price difference is a lot. So maybe I'll take your suggestion at the end of the video. The black looks a whole lot nicer
The upgrade from the Bronze to the Black is just a stylus away.
I am sticking with my Shure V-15 Type IV with an SAS stylus, I see no reason to change it. The Shure is on an SME III arm which is not really very moving coil friendly , so add a new tone arm into the cost of switching. The changeable stylus adds a real incentive as well, at least as long as the SAS stylus is still made.
Have you compare to the original HE?
I admittedly haven't had the opportunity to play around with really high end stuff, but I'm pretty happy with the relative bargain level gear that I have now as it's the best that I've had in my system so far. I'm using a Denon DL-110 high output moving coil cart with my old Yamaha pf-800 table. Even though the high output designation is supposed to mean that it can sound good with a basic preamp, I found that my Cambridge Audio P651 preamp sounded a bit weak with this new Denon cart. I replaced the Cambridge Audio preamp with a Schiit Magi mkII preamp, which has lots of adjustments for different style carts and that seemed to do the trick. Probably not nearly as nice as the stuff that you're comparing, but I thought very good sound quality, particularly for a combo that costs well less than $500.
You should consider doing a price on lower priced moving coil carts like the Denon...
All the really great cartridges are low output MC. So of you want better then a more flexible phono stage is definitely the way to go.
Your right vinyl is magic
I liked that you kept the “press play” faux pas instead of editing it out, definitely worth the chuckles. I’m probably preaching to the choir here but really good vinyl playback has a presence and palpability. MM definitely seems to have made great strides at least compared to what I used to experience with a Shure V15 vs a Koetsu Red so definitely can’t look down on MM any longer.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Good one.
I just bought a high-output moving coil; I'll let you know
The beauty in the music is revealed with a low output moving coil, common knowledge
It's costing a cartridge manufacturer to build their most expensive cartridge not much more than their cheapest models, More exotic parts you say? The Nagaoka mp-200 mm cartridge $380 uses a boron cantilever, the Audio-Technica VM540ML mm cartridge $280 uses a micro line stylus, the price differences it's just a marketing strategy, thanks for the video.
Audio technica has some nice mm carts.
I am using a Sumiko Blackbird HO via the MM stage (my integrated has both MM & MC stages each with excellent S/N) and couldn’t be happier; no desire to switch to a Starling, AT ART9XAI. The MC’s are noisier but the trade off is more details because the cantilever is thinner. I only have the 100ohm option for MC but many MC will work well at 100. Have you entertained the Clearaudio Charisma V2 MM?
The audio technica at33 takes some beating a bargain mc you would have to triple you budget to out perform it a real steal
Darn good review to find, I currently run an ortophon 2m black, OG, with my project Xtension 9 into the built in, though optional, phono board on my sim audio 340 integrated and have been wondering about a new separate phono amp . I was considering a leap over the moon 110 to the moon 310 but maybe I am making an unneeded and expensive leap beyond?
when u doing the Schiit vs (amp comparison)?
Considering my income(relatively small)I spend a large amount of that on my hobby, I do believe that I get less improvements the more I spend. But and it's a BIG but, how would I know If I didn't try out different configurations and setups . My biggest value for money vs returns were isolation platforms for both my CD player and turntable.
Yep… Cart and phono = biggest bang for buck improvement or change in analog sound signature.
Is there a general "rule" about what percentage of a vinyl budget should be relegated to the turntable, cartridge and, if needed, the phono stage? I bought a Rega P2 about 6 months ago with an upgraded AT-VM540ML installed (original cart was the Carbon) - ~$1,100. After always having to crank the volume on my AVR to get any decent sound from the AVRs phono input I finally caved and bought a Rega MM Mk5 - ~$500 and it was a huge difference - gain was 28dB higher on the Rega than the AVR. Also, how long does a cart usually last under occasional listening conditions (not everyday or hours at a time)?
What amp (int or pre-pro) do you use, and what phono amp do you use with the 250?
PicoF for the Stratos is high my 103R is I think .25mv which is fucking bonkers hence my Denon HA500 sut, plus my 60hz on my preamp seems to do the trick. Matching a sut is key. Owned quite a few.
You do the Schiit Tyr yet?
Nice shirt!
That table behind is $$$$ beyond me means for the rest of my live😊
😊 My favorite subject. My 2 cents, phone pres make a huge difference. I’d sooner upgrade a cartridge before the deck.
@@peterholley5508 I’d argue there is bigger change for less money with cartridges. Diminishing returns sets in pretty fast once isolation, Wow and flutter and tonearm quality is there. On the other hand, cartridges are like Baskin Robbins Ice cream….flavors for lots of taste preferences.
Great points Ron. Since you don’t really spin records give me that 250 cart. Lol
That is not the case. My Benz L2 Moving Coil cartridge works best on 47kOhm with a gain of 72db. Even the late Allen Wright of Vacuum State has recommended me not to load the Benz...And he is right!! There are some mc carts that can work with 47kohm and will sound amazing.
What is the name of the record player in the background ?
Be keen to know if u think this is better than the may ?t+a dac 200
The question then becomes how much does the tonearm have to do with your findings? You can't run a $1000 cartridge on a $500 table or is that not really the answer?
I want your shirt!
My 2M Bronze, Schiit Mani 2 and Rega P3 have been very good to me. Try some Tom Waits Foreign Affairs (side 2), Quadrophenia (side 4), Herbie Hancock’s Headhunters or the Vibrators Pure Mania with that LVB and see what I mean!
Cartridges have a huge impact but you need a good phono stage to get the best from them.
I have a Sumiko Moonstone, Hana SH, Skyanalog G2 and an Ortofon Cafenza Bronze. They all sound different.
I feel like it’s much easier to get a great MM phono stage and so by extension, the next value often comes from a high output moving coil which you can load at 47k.
It is clear matter - the less tracking force required the better is cartridge. We cannot rectify it with preamp futures. Unfortunately the less is force the lighter in total must be cartridge itself and the less total mass of arm is needed. I am not going to give up B&O brand LP player .
I recently upgraded the cart on my Rega P6 to an Ortofon 2M Black . . . worth every penny. I buy most of my records used but I buy them clean,
I clean them again after purchase, and keep them that way so the stylus profile is capturing the entire height of the groove and very little noise (random titles excepted).
Bingo on the sound of vinyl.
As with many things, there is a demarcation line of when something goes into diminishing returns. For the crazier among us I think that spending over $1000 on a phono cart is a fools errand that will not have good ROI. For those of use living closer to earth and in my opinion the limit would be around $600. For me, personally, it is around $400 to $500. Most phono carts are constructed the same way due to the laws of physics. So trying to upgrade sound via phono carts doesn't get very far.
In my opinion, money is better spent on a separate phono stage or phono preamp. Even $500 will render a very good phono stage and most will easily hear a difference. $800 can bring a phono pre with a jaw dropping difference! $1000-$1100 can bring something that could be called "the beast", but likely a small, but noticeable difference from the $800 level. A good phono preamp can make a $250 phono cart sound fantastic.
The point is that instead of spending $1000 on a phono cart to "improve" sound, a separate phono preamp or phono stage yields better ROI.
I've always wondered why there isn't better phono stages in most preamps/integrated amps.They should be able to accommodate both MC &MM with adjustable settings & gain. I had to bypass the internal phono stage with a outboard one that takes both w/ settings. I like to do a lot of cartridge swapping. Have both MM & MC. Got classic Shures & Summiko & Denon MC's
Interesting subject for me as I'm considering getting a new turntable for my Rogue Chronus Mag3 which does have MM/MC phono stage built in with adjustable gain and resistive loading.
Parasound which makes very good phono pre-amps, offers a better than standard pre-amp in their Halo integrated amp, it's has a multiple gain switch with 2 settings for MC along with MM.
@@pnichols6500I'm using a Halo Hint 6. It has two MC settings and one for MM. I wish I could find true details about the phono stage so I could compare it to a separate to determine how much of an upgrade I would need to make to hear a difference.
@@bgroovin1343 I agree, couldn't find specs. I have a MoFi phono amp that's about $350 and a reviewer said you would have to spend over $1000 to improve on it.
The Halo and MoFi sound very close in performance to me.
*…why there aren’t… 😊
oh i got in to vinyl late in the game. when i bought a system back in the mid 80s it was a big black box by hinari. and CDs were just in. fwd wind to moving to the US in the mid 90s and getting into high end audio, again, skipped vinyl. i did buy miles davis kinda blue and jeff beck, jeff i bought used from a store in lake forest CA, and miles, not sure, but it was new and shrink wrapped. and ... there is stayed until a year ago, yes, decades. i have the awesome cd and an arcam alpha 9. i figured, ok, lets try vinyl, i had offloaded all my high end gear due to space and got a pair of jamo's, ebay gararrd 5-300 for 90 dollars delivered and same for a rotel 102. and ... holy frik ! what ? where is the crappy pops, noise, scratches, hiss ? nothing, not even the turntable made any noise. sound stage was transparent, just miles and air breathing instruments. it was a holy s**t moment. there was plenty more. had a cd of robert palmer, always loved it. while going thru a locla antique store, found a vinyl copy for 5 bucks. took it home, ran the cd. remember, arcam, 500 dollar golden cross power cable 400 dollar cables. it sounded fine. put on the vinyl right from the antique store. again, 90 dollar rotel and 90 dollar turn table. to say there was a difference was an understatement. it was jaw dropping. how the hell did we all get conned into thinking cds trumped vinyl ? again later in the week, got a brand new copy of Sade. i have TWO copies of the cd, one mastered in london, the other in nyc, a difference ? yes, different presentation of sound stage. sounds good ? heck yeah. put on the vinyl, yet another holy s**t moment, how can vinyl beat my cds ??? and on 180 dollars of gears vs thousands. well, fwd wind again a year and i have a fluance rt82 on the way to hook to an external phono stage and a cambridge axa35. my collection of vinyl has gone from 3 to 50 in 12 months, cd purchases = 0. well, thats my story and i'm sticking with it. even my 15 year old is amazed at the big round black things. cds=crappy disks of s**t. vinyl=?? ok i cant think of what words go with it.
wow. And here i am researching a $200 table and speakers to start into this hobby.
You make many good points, TT proper set up is not easy for most, MC needs a 500-1500 $. pre/ step up. That said and I have not heard many carts, bang for buck is still the DENON 103 for me. I known there are better, much better, but it makes music. On the Clinical side my old sure be 15 Mark five is interesting but lacks romantic presentation
hey ron, can you please drive over to danny steal the brutes and review them?
You bet I can!
@@Newrecordday2013 uhh nice; i just build the encore which I am really happy with but to be honest that 12" is tickling my curiosity and there is only one who can test it hehe
Long live vinyl! Long live analog!
Campfire warmth? Harmonics…in math, it would be called fractal noise.
if you have the money, if better sound or fidelity makes sense, and if the $$$ cartridge brings better sound or fidelity makes sense, then yes it makes sense.
U didnt state whether you used a transformer with the low output moving coil cartridge ? The hi output moving coil denon cartridge is an excellent alternative
Hello from Australia. I'm a gay guy and I mention this only because the friends I have now wouldn't know squat about this subject with a few exceptions. Gay guys are not supposed to know anything about this and I rarely meet a new friend who does. It's like the old chestnut 100 years ago (WOMEN AND MACHINARY DO NOT MIX). My favourite way of explaining resistance to friends is that 95% of speakers are 8 ohms and zero ohms is like putting a nail across the speaker terminals. Then a friend of mine said "but why would you wanna do that"?. I presume like me you're starting to pull your hair out about now. Cheers from OZ, Andrew.
Let me shoot straight with you, that sounds really gay to me.
Cart? That is a new term for me
I can only imagine what the margins are on a high end cart. Imagine something that is around $10k and is made of common material’s weighing just a few ounces.
I'm sure margins are stratospheric, but to be fair, costs are not about materials used. It doesn't even have to be a high-end cart for it to cost more than its weight in gold. It's the very high precision micro-electro-mechanics, requiring - especially for MC's - highly expert manual labour. And then there's the tuning which is said to be art, hence pricingwise anything goes. Marketing BS is the most costly component in any luxury item.
@@gaborozorai3714 sure but there are cartridges that cost more than cars that also have precision manufacturing.
I get it. They are luxury items but still, so of their costs are just bananas and it’s not like this is new technology that has a ton of R&D to recoup. The basic engineering has been figured out for a long time. Anyways. I get your point and it seems you get mine. And I bet both of us have spent some $ on a really nice cartridge right? It still seems crazy even though I’m drinking the Kool-aid, so to speak.
@@Anacridhaze I totally get your point. So much so, that my frustration with crazy hifi prices led me to start a small business where I mostly sell very affordable small tube amps and high-efficiency single driver speakers.
As for cartridges I think the sweetspot is with brands that are high on technological content and low on BS. I wanted one that is high-end in materials and performance but without the inflated price tag and the spin of some great master winding coils with his own revered hands. I ended up with an Audio-Technica ART9 and am very happy with it.
I would love to check out your stuff. Do you have a website?
Try Rick Wakeman’s Journey to the center of the earth
We have MRI evidence that analog playback stimulates the brain much more than any digital.
Wow that is super interesting. Where can I see such articles? I want to progress to reel to reel in the end after turntable.
I want to know your sources as well!
I don’t agree with this at all. Now, while my MC is significantly more expensive, it’s significantly better than the LVB 250. It’s actually not even remotely close and is definitely night and day.
I had an Ortofon LVB 250, and now have a Rega Apheta 3. There is not a single thing that the Ortofon can compete with. In fact, I would go as far to say the LVB is very overrated.
None of these statements are true if you are actually into hifi. Meaning, who on earth gets into vinyls then doesnt buy equipment that supports the level in which they are at financially. For instance, why would you be an integrated if it doesnt support mc when you purchased an mc cart. Why wouldnt you by a sut? I dont get the logic of these initial precepts presented here. LOMC is where its at, period. Owned many MM, Nagaoka, Sound Smith ( iron) and more, and they do not compare to the details and soundstage/airiness of a LOMC.
if you can't hear the difference between expensive and cheap, you're going to save yourself a million dollars
You are all a joke. One of the technical advantages of moving coil over moving magnet is the amount of mass the stylus has to move. So what is the step above moving coil? Ribbon!
Yes the Nagatron HV9100 Ribbon Cartridge. I owned a sample as their rep when they introduced it. Fraction of the mass of a moving coil. Velocity based rather than changing magnetic strength. So much more linear. Incredible sounding. Needed a pre-preamp to step it up enough to feed a moving coil input!
You need to understand high end audio is not about neutral sound.... it's about your tailored taste, the bespoke sound set up based on one's preference. But definitely learned a new thing , Nagatron. Thank you.
@@newdevilman1167 Thanks for explaining an industry that I made a living in for over decade as the Marantz, AR, AT, Nagatron, Empire, ... rep giving seminars and lectures to (amp design, stylus evaluations, psychoacoustic seminars,...) ... to me.
Wrong, the next step is optical.
@@madmeister407 WRONG! Ribbon is staying in magnetic and would be the next step before leaving magnetic.
@@glenncurry3041 No don't think so, if the ribbon cartridge was that good every one would be making and selling them. Ditch the magnet, wire and coils and go optical. You know it makes sense.
What the hell is with all these "comparisons" without showing examples. It's just people talking about numbers.
1000"pounds" isn't 1000$
$2000 turntable, $1000 cartridge, $1000 preamp. Beyond that, it’s all in your mind !
funny. one way to justify your own standards. many of expensive gears do what they claim to do. Prices can be only justified based on your own valuation and how deep your pocket goes. Price tiers do exist. Don't fool yourself. Enjoy this beautiful hobby. Why reject someone else's passion?
@@newdevilman1167 it’s not my standard; only my impression of what can be “good enough” to satisfy “most” listeners. There will always be people that have the money to get carried into “subtle” territory with varying degrees of “necessity.” Goes without saying.
Too much talkin and not enuf listening