These are probably the two people in the top two spots on my "want to meet in person before I die" list. If only to shake their hands while trying not to say something dumb.
karen straughan- I doubt you would say something dumb Karen. Enjoyed your work for long time. although I would like to see you go all school girl seeing a pop star. Just for my own amusement. lol.
*Personal Notes* [11:24] Correlation of Disgust with Progressivism vs Conservatism [14:07] Purity & Sacred Symbols [14:58] Exploratory Behaviour of Children / Mother as Reference for Center of the World [15:56] Campus turns into a sacret safe space [18:53] Political Core Issue: Openness and Borders JP: «The conservatives want the borders between categories to remain intact no matter what level of analysis. From Abstract levels of analysis to the actual physical borders of rooms, towns, states, countries. They're like "the borders should be thicker."» From a study: «What they found was, the higher the prevalence of infectious disease, the higher the probability of bottom-up authoritarian political attitudes.» On the on hand Hitler's basic metaphor was that the Aryan race and country was a pure body and that it was assaulted by parasites, on the other hand, when the Europeans showed up and shook hands with the Native Americans, 95% of the latter died within 50 years. As another example: the European expansion produced a tremendous interachange of ideas from all around the world - that's globalization - but as Europeans started to move around the world they brought back rats and the black death wiped out somewhere between 30-60% of the population at the same time. [21:50] *The Omnivore's Dilemma* «That border issue is what separates conservatives from liberals. The conservatives say, the novel is potentially contaminated. (It's not so much that it's dangerous, that's different, that'd be fear). And the liberals say, hold on a minute, if you make the borders to thick, then informaiton can't pass through.» *A behavioral Immune System* «We have the same attitude towards abstract information, so we can think of an invading idea, or a polluting or contaminating idea.» [23:46] «So wouldn't it be good, if in every society or every organization we had - some people who specialized in saying "hey, what are the opportunities" and - some people who specialized in saying "well, what are the risks?". It just so happens that a lot of people having trouble doing that all in themselves.» «There are people with - different personalities, - different motives - and different goals. Yeah, we could have a discussion between them, that'd lead to far better results. It's for that precise reason at least, that free speech has fundamental value.» «The liberals start businesses, but they can't run them. And the conservatives can run them, but they can't continue to transform and expand them. ...yin and yang.» [25:01] *What happened in Nazi Germany* «If you're afraid of something, then you'll run away from it or freeze. But if something disgusts you, then you'll try to burn it or kill it, atleast get it away.» Hitler - first fought tuberculosis, - then demanded factory owners to get rid of rats and mice and insects with Zyklon-A, - then he used a variation of that gas and attempted to "clean up the asylums". You can see how the categorization of impurity (or contamination) escalated: - first it was public health, - then social cleanliness, - then he went into the asylums. [27:19] *Disgust and Moral Elevation* Disgust is a reaction to things that seem to be degrading, metaphorically mostly referred to by a vertical scheme. [31:16] *It's really useful to understand that there are actual reasons why people see the world differently.* ...And that you can't easily say that one is right and tha other is wrong: The liberals are correct when it comes to borders (as in:) - if you thicken them too much and thus diminish the information flow, you risk making the society so static that any radical environmental transformation will sink it (...that's actually the case!). But the conservatives are right in that - you pay a big price for new information under the general risk of exposure to contamination, even contaminating ideas. *Fundamental Truths about Reality / Life* «The environment metaphorically moves back and forth like a snake, and what we are trying to do is stay on the center of it's back! And the only way we can do that is by - having people pull to the right and say "be careful!" and - having people pull to the left and say "well yeah, but be open!". And maybe with that dialog and the exchange of information which that dialog promotes, we can specify the current center of that moving goal and actually stay on the back.» [32:33] *Emergence of Briliance and Truth* We are ultra-social, tribal apes with animistic religions. As individuals we're really kind of stupid creatures, designed to do post hoc reasoning. But if you put us together in the right way with the right checks and systems, the whole can vastly smarter than the components. (which is true of the brain as well.) As individuals, we are really bad at disconfirming our own ideas. Only if you put ideas out there and everyone else is motivated to challenge them, the truth comes out. [34:20] *No Conservatives in the Academics Anymore* In the 60s/70s one of the main reasons to go to grad school in the social sciences is either a) to stay in the school to escape the Vietnam War draft or b) to fight for social justice and against racism The ratio of liberals to conservatives changed because of - self-selection - hostile climate/discrimination put forth against unwanted political opinions [40:19] *Nihilism and the consequence of scientific ideas to religious fundaments of human society* «When you throw out a sophisticated religious structure, an unsophisticated religious structure will fill the gap.» Fundamentalists in the sciences are contributing vastly to the current cultural problem. [52:23] *The Desastrous Consequence of Viewing Speech as Violence* - There used to be a difference between 1) a member of a minority group feeling offended by someone sincerely expressing an idea and 2) this member being viewed as victim of violence and that the situation thus demands immediate protective action by law [57:42] *Traditionally you can put forth any idea you want, if you can back it up with facts.* Due to excessive politicization of the educational agenda, - students learn rhetorical techniques instead, with - the goal of linking their enemies to something contemptable or disgusting and - to provoke a detrimental social outrage targeted against them. [58:05] *The Political Immune System Analogy* Once you're labeled as a racist, it doesn't matter what you actually say, you will now be attacked. Also, once you're labeled that way, if someone defends you, the label is contagious, right? ...Like in a religious witch-hunt. That's why there's so much cowardice on campus, even if the majority thinks that what's going on is nuts. [01:13:11] *Overprotection related Depression and Anxiety* 1) Fewer siblings -> Lack of - unsupervised rough-and-tumble free play - playful fight for position in hierachy - ability to deal with conflict As a consequence more adults - assume there has to always be a supervisor to call when there is any type of conflict - become unable to deal with problems themselves 2) Lack of Fantasy / Identity Play might manifest itself in form of - cultural gender-flexibility issue and gender debates 3) Social Plattforms - the social prevalence of (and early access to) interactive media platforms hugely loads young people, especially girls, with anxiety under the social need for approval and amplifies social relational phenonea like reputation savaging during femal hieracical disputes 4) Rise of Polarization - mob phenomena: minor public deviation from implicit expectations can attract unlooked-for and individually unforeseen social damage of catastrophic, even career-ending magnitude [01:23:23] «Give everyone a place which is safe. And by safe I mean physically safe. _Never_ use the word safety to describe emotions and ideas. Safety means physical safety.» [01:24:36] *Inclusion as a Primary Virtue is a Vice* «There is in-group preference (which to eliminate would be foolish). And to distinguish that from out-group exclusion is not easy at all.» «Any virtue carried to extremes becomes a vice.» - Aristotle [01:28:35] *Optimistic Perspective* «We actually think that by just doing academics, that is: - research, makeing arguments, being calm and civil that we can turn this around.» [01:30:46] *The Corrective Mechanisms* Duty to the Truth - never say things that you think are false - never hesitate to display your scientific opinion under fear for it to get challenged Educate your Students and - do not indoctrinate them or use/(abuse) them as tools for your political agenda *Optimistic Conclusion:* If universities make their statements and goals public, students will thus flood the universities that hold the morally highest principles.
"When you throw out a sophisticated religious structure, an unsophisticated religious structure comes in to fill the gap." -JP Holy crap, that's huge. I can't believe he said that as a passing thought.
That actually IS profound. People will fill that void with something, usually something kind of stupid (rabid feminism, cross-fit, veganism, political ideology, etc).
@@BakuganMinion I think you might mean PETA :). ANTIFA does engage in violence, but it's mostly aimed towards the far right (Nazis, etc.)...not animals.
People Health Truth - if you pronounce it correctly, it would sound like "Height Speech", which could only be problematic in cases like Randy Newman''s song 'Short People', which was actually written ironically...and a lot of idiots started labeling it as bigoted. It was one of the reasons Randy became disgusted with the mentality of the pop music audience, and transitioned into movie soundtracks.
@@mdntctyvlcn LOL I just finished Jonathan Haidt's book "The Coddling of the American Mind." Highly recommend it if you haven't read it yet! Gonna pick up one by Peterson next.
I love the way they play off each other. If one of them ever has an incomplete thought, the other chimes in and completes it for him promptly. Makes for an incredibly fluid and educational conversation.
Can you feel it? The rebirth of something? Here online, and in quiet libraries, and in those moments where eyes meet and you find another soul who sees it. Don't let the flame flicker and go out.
Imagine all the intellectuals who choose not to go into universities because of their absolute insane policies and the prevailing club mentality which says 'You must pay us outrageous sums of money and conform to our views if you are you to receive any accolades'. Imagine how many Einsteins and scientific breakthroughs humanity has missed out on simply because so many intellectuals aren't willing to go along with such stupidity. This is a centuries old problem that seems to be getting progressively worse.
I'm studying social work in Australia and I'm so frustrated by the lack of encouragement to criticize ideas. I had a professor who told me if I did an essay that criticized feminism I would get an instant fail because it's not in consensus with the majority of evidence. I actually really disrespect the discipline at this point it's just tribalism.
So someone did a study in order to create evidence that states that criticism of feminism is unacceptable? Yea... that professor needs to be fired immediately because that is categorically false. Criticism is the method under which we both clarify and simultaneously fortify our ideals and by extension, ourselves. Without criticism..... we die.... Your professor should be immediately and unconditionally removed from their position and never allowed to teach again unless they can prove that they value education over indoctrination.
"the higher the prevalence of infectious disease the higher the probability of totalitarian or authoritarian political attitudes" - we need to have discussion about this given the current coronavirus situation 20:12
And note which political ideologies have used the opportunity to seize a tight control over the public and which ideology has let their citizens be free!
Using any single disease as the "case in point" to back up your statement is foolish. One could and should argue that the rate of infectious diseases in the US is markedly lower than 95% of the rest of the world. You have to look at ALL infectious diseases within a given society and THEN make the determination, not just 1 disease, that would be a unidimensional study... which is quite literally the opposite of the correct way to study variables. I get your point, but it's a pretty shallow way to interpret the statement made in the quote you cited.
Yeah isn't that a hydrogen bomb of a realization? I realized the other day... The far-right, tyrannical father, is a constant thirst for order, which is represented by an unending pointing-at toward the current 'pest' (the thirst of which is what gives the person in that state of mind the feeling of disorder; the person, in this example, simply can't live without a pest to exterminate), whereas the far-left, tyrannical mother, is a constant allowance of everything matched with the refusal to recognize the presence of a problem for the sake of maintaining the thought that everything is ok (utopia). The biggest problem with the latter is the fact that, in order to maintain the thought across a large group of people that everything is ok (despite the obvious knowledge of the presence of a problem), those people who refuse to give up their thought of utopia must get rid of the ones who speak up and tell the truth about the problem at hand and the fact that the utopia is a farce, thus in turn creating the ones toward whom they can point with their 'pure' fingers. I recognize the far-right example with Hitler's regime, and the far-left with Stalin's. But I also recognize the far-left example as what we see happening now in current-day America; the popular SJW-type mode of thought is the representation of 'utopia', and anyone who speaks or acts otherwise is attempted to be thrown out of the entire game. I see that this is why both examples lead to the same thing, besides the unfortunately crystal-clear evidence we have of this in the 20th century. (I'm still working on my definition of the far-left example, but I think you get the point)
Google isadick so the point of “infectious Disease” (COVID-19) and the current rise of political control isn’t a valid view? I mean look at the “camps” that are popping up for those whom do not “comply”, and the current politicalization of “social Justice”...seems accurate enough for this modern day scenario
@@derekknight8261 The prevalence of infectious disease that they're referring to is when societies don't have antibiotics, vaccines, public health, or even running water. Societies where food insecurity, infant mortality, and STDs are much higher. One instance of a particularly infectious disease like Covid-19 affecting developed, western societies doesn't necessarily produce the long term authoritarian cultural values that you see in India, sub-Saharan Africa, and the Middle East, that were ubiquitous in the entire world up until the last century.
"Give everyone a place which is safe and by same I mean physically safety, never use the word safety to describe emotions and ideas" - Jonathan Haidt The universities that fail to understand and implement this must perish.
I so admire the way Dr. Peterson was able to contain himself and let Dr Haidt speak to his areas of expertise. It's almost as if he assumes that the person he's talking to knows something he doesn't. Go figure! It's nice to see Karen Straughan here in the comments section showing similar humility.
"It's almost as if he assumes that the person he's talking to knows something he doesn't" that's one of his 12 rules for life, actually. Would be odd of him not to follow his own advice on how to live a better life 😅
The more I hear from Dr. Haidt, the more I want to hear. I read “The Coddling of the American Mind” in 3 days. Couldn’t put it down. This conversation is just brilliant.
Wow, this is even better than the Peterson-Paglia interview. It's impressive that these guys support their arguments by verbally citing researchers or studies to provide supporting evidence. Real data must be a lot harder to remember than "Hey hey, ho ho..." Dr. Peterson has done a great thing in using his channel to spotlight these conversations.
Vote this comment up to show, that this isn't only happening in English speaking countries. Greetings from Germany, conservatives are hopelessly outnumbered on universities here
Cateline Delabrinno as far as I know the kids really like the blackface party and before anybody judges this, please have a look on that and speak with a reasonable Dutch - it's tradition and it's not as racist as the left wants to make it look like. Maybe the sjws are viewed as lunatics in the Netherlands, but I'm on a university in northrine Westphalia and unfortunately there really some people that see them as virtuous and want them to succeed in political university student parties. We even had some talks about white privilege and the horrors of German colonialism on our campus, which where directly reflected on Germans today. They even advised germans to go there because "they lack the understanding of white privilege". I don't know what to make of this. I spoke out against that shot several times, but the backfiring was heavy.
It also happens here in Europe, sure, not as extreme yet, but hey would we even know? I mean anyone like them what the called Nazi and shut down. So, who of the Nazis is actually not one and could be a JP or Haidt? Another reason why I think we do not know as did Europeans suck at marketing and remain in their closet instead of going to public and brag about their ideas....
BarefootSamuraiX well I easily got called a Nazi, a racist, a homophobe and a transphobe because I called out against a gender neutral toilet. Not because I'm against transgender, but because about the unforseeable consequences. And I'm not a Nazi, definitely not. I value the individual and truth is one of my highest good. I don't care about group identities, I don't care about skin color, about political views and stuff, I wasn't raised like that.
So, the central message is: "Hey, lighten up, toughen up, smarten up" rather than "here is a soother and a diaper and a nose clamp". A healthy growth process to robustness and competence and confidence in the real world rather than a protection of infantilism, hissy fits and meltdowns... Come up with cogent, coherent, convincing arguments rather than snide slurs, labels and put-downs... "
I would argue there's never been a better time to re-colonize the Academy. These people are weak, their minds are fragile. A rush and a push, and the universities will be ours. I went back to school (a Big Ten university) and I feel like I'm surrounded by subpar thinkers. These people are so distracted and shattered, and addicted to their screens. I'm quite serious when I say we should all enroll en masse right now, and try to sweep all the trash away. The timing is perfect.
Oh, I agree we can't stop fighting or give up hope entirely. But we have to assess our situation realistically and realize it's a massive uphill climb from here.
Epiphany: The point at which a person that leaned left for their entire life suddenly realized that a large percentage of his fellow-travelers are raving lunatics are on a path that will tear civilized society apart.
Mike Betts to be fair it's not uncommon to realize that on both sides. It's just the right is better and cordoning off third crazies and making clear demarcation between then normal right, the far right, the dissident right and loons.
jeff swanson I didn't dispute that, you don't really understand how refuting a point works do you. You have to refute something that I said then make a pithy quip, if making one at all. You just made a thinly veiled insult then refuted nothing. Work on that, Kay, bye.
Benedicite Sol hu, seem a lot of people are hear using words they don't understand. I was being condescending. If you need me to explain what that means, just let me know and I'll try to dumb it down enough for you. As for you're 'insult', as it has nothing to do with anything discussed, it's baseless. For an insult to have bite it has to in some way be applicable. Given nothing in this limited exchange could grant any insight on that label, it means nothing. However I do find it telling when people resort to random insults. It's a very interesting thing, to see where their brain goes as it will likely go towards something they detest, about themselves at least. Of course it's not always the case so I cannot confidently assert your cowardliness. I can only suspect it.
Sidechaining is when the presence of one vocal track reduces the volume of another audio playing at the same time. When a kick hits in a dubstep song, it's usually sidechained to the melody so that the instant the kick hits, the melody reduces in volume and comes back to normal when the kick stops hitting (depending on the release time of the sidechain compressor).-
I'm glad to see Jordan Peterson seemingly taking to heart the criticism from past videos that he talked way too much in interviews where he was the interviewer. You can actually see and hear the points in the video where he abridged his very open, tangential mind and segued into asking more questions to Jonathan Haidt. He also said in a couple podcasts that he has been on that he knows that is one of his character faults. It's refreshing to know he is actually reading the feedback he is getting on his videos.
I believe he already knew this, he talked about how he did it with his patients and it is always on his mind to not talk as much, but he kind of states, he is wired to do so. Regardless, he is not saying "I am just that way", he is still trying to improve.
It helps that he's interviewing an intellectual and scholarly equal who has his own areas of specialization. A great conversation ensues also because their areas of study and expertise overlap as well as diverge.
Jonathan Haidt is really good at breaking down and explaining complex ideas and concepts in very simple terms. He's definitely one of my favorite people to listen to.
mpfmax0 With what software, if you don't mind me asking? Is it free? I have an Android, and if it comes stock on my phone than I wasn't aware of it. Although I've had Androids for a while, this phone is a bit different and is mostly used in Asia as opposed to the US, so it's a bit... different. It also has some minor compatibility issues with some American cell providers/features, but if all I have to do is download an app or something, that should work fine
GubbaNubNubDooRahKah i use a video editing app called lumafusion which is the best one i have found on iOS, but it wasn't free. I think it costs around 20 dollars. I don't know it they also have an android version unfortunately.
It's like if you took the ten classiest things in the world and distilled them into a type of meta class, and got the archetypal representation of class, roughly speaking... and it took a long time to come up with that, man! I mean these are not trivial things. We had to act it out before we got that youtube intro.
Would love to see an interview with Chicago Professor Rachel Brown about the SJW attack on her and Western History!! I think me and the rest of your listeners would love that!
Discovering Peterson was my 'trip to India' His calm and thoughtful methods of thinking have given the right side of politics and thought their space to heard and debated, instead of instant dismissal under the impression that 'I'll probably just diagree' With thanks Extreme Left, for literally deafening me in 1 ear, & thanks to Peterson for unblocking the clog.
These are two great minds and thinkers. I think that Haidt has a better sense of how to translate ideas to the public. Peterson may not be as good at exposition as Haidt, but he speaks more passionately about his ideas and it can make him more listenable.
Religion isn't a social construct so much as something we are wired for. Just the nature of consciousness and unanswerable questions. Constructing a framework in which our existence has meaning beyond eating, shitting and dying is very good for very many people, even though it's rooted mostly in fabrication.
I could listen to Jordan Peterson from now until forever. I just cannot get enough. I love his passion, that razor sharp mind, and how incredibly thought-provoking his lectures are. I appreciate Haidt's openness, point of view, and scholarship, but he is not on par with Peterson in my opinion.
Such an important discussion, can't believe I'm only seeing it now, and it wasn't even in my recommened, I just stumbled upon it in a playlist! I've liked, shared (to my own email lol) and commented on this video just to have it hopefully be recommended to others.
This talk makes so much sense living here in India too. I'm a centrist leaning right. I remember we had these CAA/NRC protests (you can search up on Google to know what they were to realise what they really mean). I posted my unbiased opinion on my Instagram and was attacked by my so called friends at college. They didn't want to debate. They just labelled me Islamophobic and that was it. It's not just an Anglo thing now. This is happening all over the world. I'm so happy that I got to see this interview. It made me more strong. Thank you Dr. Peterson and Dr. Haidt. I have more solid arguments the next time someone comes at me with "slurs". Definitely checking out Heterodoxy academy.
Wyatt Siefert ah I just started reading that book! I even had Metaphors We Live By which Jonathan mentioned. God everything is coming together. All that's left is that we internalize all this knowledge.
I graduated from a film program, and a huge percentage of my friends on Facebook are now very left leaning. I frequently post Jordan Peterson/Classical Liberal/Libertarian opinions on Facebook in a totally respectful manner and I never get any pushback over it. Most people just accept far left opinions, but aren't really into arguing over them because they don't actually understand the reasons for the opinions. I just hope that when I post these things, that they'll plant a seed in people's brains of a differing opinion, backed with reasons, and eventually it'll change people's minds, because I try my hardest to post my opinions in a non-confrontational way. The best way to have someone reject your opinion is if you make it confrontational. As soon as it becomes an argument and not a conversation, people need to win, not learn.
When you say left-leaning, do you mean socialist or communist? I often find that people post communistic content or memes on facebook as a way of signaling their edginess and counterculture cred, much like dying their hair a neon color, but really aren't willing to defend it. I mean, they just want noncommittally to advocate a position that's killed 100MM in the 20th Century, so why do you have to harsh their buzz?
DeflatingAtheism no like the typical person who doesn’t really know what they’re saying but support BLM and are super supportive of LGBTQ and like affirmative action equity type stuff. Just the typical modern day liberal, not the militant sjw types. At least I don’t think they are.
J. D. Stembal it doesn’t need to be a confrontation. It has to be dialectic. Both sides need to speak and more importantly listen. It’s human nature to block out foreign ideas that are expressed aggressively/confrontationally. Instead of blaming the other person for being too emotional and not listening, why not try a different approach? Big conservatives youtubers are just as annoying now because half the time they just talk shit with facts sprinkled in. I don’t want to watch a shit talking competition. I want to see nice calm conversations like this.
It seems a lot of people have a problem with Haidt identifying fundamentalism as a problem. I think these people have forgotten that fundamentalism as a word existed before it had a negative association with particular groups. Anyone can be a fundamentalist, whether in religion, politics, economics, civics etc. The basic idea with a fundamentalist is they lack complexity and over simplify things to unrealistic "fundamentals." So it is similar to being an ideologue.
Personally I just quibble with the definition of 'fundamentalist' here and think Haidt might be better off finding another word. Because there's nowhere near consensus that the word implies over-simplification etc -- as a word it just suggests someone who's gone back to the 'fundamental' building blocks of some system of thinking, and is taking care to get those fundamentals in order and rebuild their complex system based on well-ordered fundamentals rather than disordered fundamentals. At least that's what I take from the word. So if there's so much disagreement about this definition (since it's fair that you don't share mine) I think for practical purposes he should just find a different one (or at least define his *very precisely* before every occasion of using it).
@@tryforthesky2224 fundamentalism is characterised as the strict literalisn in terms of adherence to specific scriptures (as in religious fundamentalism) dogmas or idealogies. The word fundamental applies to whichever of these a particular person or group has chosen. Using fundamental as a synonym for basic as in "back to basics" as though it is a building block upon which ideas or knowledge should start is simply not correct. It would actually be a block upon which your beliefs should start and end.
@@AGfrom83 I believe it becomes a bit of a semantical argument, and that's the issue. What do we "mean" when we say X, etc. The lack of consensus makes it all the more nebulous. Fundamentals as a concept are essential, as well, particularly among people who are more conscientious. For instance when you say "Using fundamental as a synonym for basic as in "back to basics" as though it is a building block upon which ideas or knowledge should start is simply not correct." That's not correct, because that is the precise definition of "fundamentals" in terms of games and sports, where you first have to learn how to stand/hold your racket/club properly/Practice good balance, etc. before you can go on to learning more advanced facets of your particular arena of competition. So "fundamental" in the strictly academic sense might not mean exactly that, but in practical usage of the word that is the accepted definition.
I agree he needs a better word. Like “evolution” it has several meanings. He equated fundamentalists Christians as necessarily being young Earth creationist which is not always the case. I consider myself a fundamentalist Christian and I have a science background and believe the Earth is 4.5 billion years old.
Looking back on this now in 2022 (4yrs later), Haidt's optimism with college campuses is grossly misplaced. It blows me away that a profession of this caliber could ever conceive the notion that college campuses begin to self-correct without any major blow to the institution or the ideology that promotes the madness on campuses.
What a pleasure to hear Dr. Peterson talking to someone at his level. It’s so rare that anyone comes close. That made this video a true joy to listen to despite the gravity of the topic. I feel slightly more optimistic hearing some of Dr. Haitd’s ideas for solutions and also that there are some initiatives already underway with results that are looking positive thus far. I’m late in viewing this. At the time of this writing, this video is over a year old, so I’m going to take a look to see if there’s an update. If there isn’t, I’d like to suggest this exercise be repeated at least once a year to give us an update on how both feel things are going in the universities. I’d be very interested to hear thoughts on how things appear to be trending.
I was a psych major in undergrad and I'm pretty sure my social psychology professor was subtly trying to redpill his students by introducing us to j haidt, J Peterson, and S pinker. It gives me hope for the future of psychology as a discipline because right now it's highly politicized (left). Anyway. Love these two
"I'm actually optimistic about whats going to happen on campus" Oh man... coming from 2020 and watching this is depressing lol. Jonathan Haidt in 2015: "Hey guys, if we don't turn this around and soon, the shit that is happening on the college campuses is going to reach the rest of society in about 5 years"
Has it been going on for decades? Maybe you could argue on some level it was going on in the background, but it wasn't until very recently (1 or 2 years?) That it became this open. I really think Haidt was right, back in 2015 we still had a chance to correct things by addressing what waa going on on college campuses before those kids graduated and brought it to the 'real' world. He was just wrong for being optimistic about that happening and now its too little too late. Headed for bad times no doubt, i don't know how any reasonable person could still have any optimism about the current state of things.
@@ohgodmynutbladder ok. “In the background”. I saw it developing as early as 1973 when I worked at Esalen Institute’s (now-defunct) San Francisco office. Lefties & hypocrites, all.
Joy and happiness! Two of the West's premier intellects engaged in civilized discourse, listening to each other, exploring ideas. So rare today. Than you gentleman for a stimulating, satisfying hour.
What an important conversation. Damn. This is probably the first person I've seen offer some healthy rational resistance to Peterson. We need more people that can bounce good data and ideas off each other. Keep strong and thanks for walking us all through this epic journey.
Yes except find multiple sources for your information. These guys are right about a lot of things but that does not mean their conclusions and ideology is unchallenged
OMG. I'm so late to this party. I have known and followed Dr. Peterson for a while now but I found out about Dr. Haidt only after he came on Bill Maher. Hated the part where Bill kept interrupting Dr. Haidt. Then I watched NYU School of Law's The Forum with Dr. Haidt, just finished reading Coddling of The American Mind (the book) two days back, and here I am, discovering the two legends sharing ideas and wisdom. Wish this video never ended.
There’s some kind of compression, especially on Jon Haidt’s mic that causes him to be nearly inaudible when he speaks more softly in this interview. Please re-release this with the compression (or other audio problem) fixed.
lvn4x yes! I had to rewind multiple times to hear what Dr Haidt had said. Not to mention understand...made it even more difficult as someone who is not on this intellectual level 💡🤬
As a man finishing up his master's in education, I can assure you Petersen is absolutely correct. I can't tell you the number of times we've been extorted to be "change agents," and we all know what kind of "change" they are want to impose. I have been in two classes where White women burst out into tears when coming to terms with the same of their 'Whiteness." I can only imagine what they will be teaching White students, particularly boys, when they get out in the classroom. However, one of the things I find interesting that when I have confronted a professor about this directly, he will backpedal. For example, I would often ask what sort of "penance" I need to do as a White Man, he would respond that White or male privilege is not like that and quickly change the subject. I think at some level they recognize the religious nature of what they are teaching and feel ashamed of it.
Andrew Stallard isn't exaggerating. I'm in a Master's in the social sciences (and a woman, by the way -- and so thankful to be a woman considering the evil abuse I've heard thrown at men in back rooms, and knowing what a concrete impact academics are INTENTIONALLY having against people who happen to be male, to counteract some supposed 'natural' privilege possessed by all white males) and it's tragic the number of women who've allowed themselves to be trained to feel hysterical about race and gender. There's nothing academic about it -- and it's horrifying to imagine these people going out there to try to 'school' others with their warped worldview. I honestly believe these people are deeply wounded and victim culture makes them and their mental fragilities so much worse off, whereas being empowered and required to conduct themselves as rational adults would enable them to recognize so many of the pressures they whine about as *literally nothing.* And they (and the rest of us) would be so much happier and mentally (and socially) healthy for it. The only thing that reassures me is knowing that while I'm sitting in the room listening to all of the "change agent" garbage (knowing exactly what they mean by it), I can also know that internally I'm taking notes and am not going with their program -- and I can have hope that other sane people are also recognizing this garbage for what it is, and intend to move forward in a sane way instead of garbage way themselves.
White guy here (laughable I find myself mentioning this but the context is tragically relevant nowadays) - just starting out with school at the county college level under a social sciences degree, intent is clinical counseling. I’ve been told that I, “had no right to speak about black issues” during a discussion about slavery-era history, the civil rights acts, etc. (in a Race & Ethnicity class). I told her that I had every right to speak and that she was in the unfortunate situation of not understanding that... I already see it at the peer level.
Naitiesurië Ilúvatariel so refreshing to read. At times I feel as though I’m in hiding or something. Having to pay attention to the ways in which people push the narrative. I work in a social work-type environment and my advisor recently stated that white men have had unfair advantages for all of human history and it made me genuinely uneasy to recognize the warped and ignorant resentment in her voice towards men.
Wow. This is a brilliant conversation, mind-blowingly honest and detached, while obviously passionately pursuing a just truth. Feels good to have these minds working on our behalf.
I think disgust is nothing but a very strong rejection of the other. The human mind finds always something awful in the other tribe: pigmeet, parasites... If it does not find anything, it makes things up. All ihese aspects are not the reason for rejection, they are only the alibi, the most impressive argument, the most humilating aspect against a hated opponent or enemy. As more enemy, the more disgust., the more radical the alibis of rejection. The deepest reasons for rejecting is the different temperament, the different character, left and right, Kain and Abel.
DR. Jonathan, thank you for continuing to speak. OMFW we wish Professor Peterson a speedy recovery. He is in my prayers. It is as if i remember these golden days when the two of you were having these big conversations, and all of a sudden a very chaotic world started to make more sense. I want you to have these conversations again.
THANK YOU Dr. Peterson for posting this. I am a social worker in Central Oregon and I am VERY concerned about the future of my alma mater. I provide field instruction for students interning at sites that do not have social workers on staff. In the past few years, I have had more and more students telling me that they have been intimidated and no longer express their ideas freely. Last year, I had a student who reported that a student on campus referred to all white women as being untrustworthy, and used the pejorative term of all pejorative terms, and the instructor said nothing. This was a violation of the student handbook and frankly a violation of the social work code of ethics with respect to collegiality. I found myself so fearful of confronting this for fear of being shunned. What has helped me in the past year is the discovery of your work. Interestingly enough, it felt like blasphemy to be learning about you and many other people who have been banned from speaking on campuses. It turns out this is the healthiest thing I could have done. I just signed on for an advisory board and will turn from this video to the resources you and Dr. Haidt have referred to here. Again, thank you so very much!
Thank you so much gentlemen! This was wildly fascinating. I’ll be using some of this in a paper I’m writing about free speech. I’ll also be buying your books and continue to follow you both. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
@Mike Hansen Yes. Hitchens was a journalist, his empirical base for evidence is much smaller compared to an actual researcher. Sam Harris sometimes has problems with his overblown ego that gets in the way of his reasoning.
Two of my favorite scholars-right-of-center Jordan B. Peterson, left-of-center Jonathan D. Haidt-having a discussion that all academics should be having (or at least listening in on). These two rank as high for me as Steven Pinker and Robert Wright. (Funny, I just now realized that all four are psychologists, psychologists that take evolutionary biology quite seriously.) Reading/listening to Peterson-in conjunction with Wright (The Evolution of God, Why Buddhism is True)-transformed my atheism into agnosticism; and reading/listening to Haidt-in conjunction with Pinker (The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature, The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined)-transformed my leftism into liberalism. Peterson's one of the wisest human beings that I've read/listened to, and Haidt's one of the most thoughtful human beings that I've read/listened to, so to hear these two talking-together-was quite a treat for me.
I'm pleasantly surprised by how many people use the 'w'-word- _wisdom_ - in reference to Peterson. In a world of 'critical theory', lets make wisdom a thing again!
So many sentences of wisdom throughout this video I found myself jumping back, contemplating what was just said, and playing back again. I'm better for it. Thank you gentlemen for sharing your brilliance!
Thank you Jonathan Haidt, for keeping Jordan on track. I am, myself, learning how not to permit the rush of ideas to interrupt the person with whom I am conversing.
it's actually the other way around. Peterson kept himself on the track since he clearly disagrees with heidt on some issues but managed to not be so aggressive out of respect and consideration for heidt's work
Heavy on the low end too. But yes, the quality has improved significantly and continues to do so. I have no doubt the remaining kinks will be worked out over time.
A hypothesis: Maybe the connection between disgust and willpower has something to do with the willingness to confront and/or kill the thing which disgusts you. You can be disgusted by something and also fear it, a spider or snake for instance, and it takes willpower to overcome the fear in order to carry out the necessary reaction to the disgust. One might thereby elevate the value of willpower if his disgust is of great import to him.
They mentioned this early on in the talk- fear makes you run, whereas disgust makes you want to destroy, or purify as with fire. In this sense, both galvanize the individual to a compulsive sort of action, but one drives you toward the object or situation of concern rather than away from it. Which is obviously a very interesting distinction.
@joshualbatros @andy Brice Both insightful. To take both threads, will power beliefs are based on the notion that through effort of will an outcome can be achieved. That is, it is something you would expect in people high in personal responsibility measures. It is possible that since being orderly requires effort and continual maintenance. as well that an 'ordered state' is fundamentally transformed from a 'disordered one' and in its visual order confirms the result of ones will vis effort on the originally 'disordered' environment. (All environments tend towards disorder if not maintained or organized). That order reinforces willpower beliefs. Let us then suppose that all desires have answers and that no desire comes without its fulfilling complement. If we take it that we like order, it is pleasurable, and disorder greatly displeases us. We can believe our desire for order is justified. But given that it requires effort (and humans hate useless/ meaningless effort), it is impossible to justify effortfull organization of the world if we are not responsible for it (making it senseless or illegal for us to do it). Since responsibility is a matter of both attribution and position. For position, the leader is ALWAYS fundamentally more responsible than the subordinate as the leader has more power of effect. As well, for attribution In a far 'higher sense' the best way to enable the free fulfillment of the desire for orderliness is to prevent its obstruction by beliefs of non-responsibility. That is to prevent attributions which make it impossible or unreasonable for you to 'fix' the problem of disorder and delay your own wish fulfillment. Given all of this, the most maximally efficient belief (even when it is incorrect) if you want to fulfill your desire for order, is to believe staunchly in the power of will to overcome circumstance. This applies to both environmental challenges which are technical or mysterious in nature to political and social challenges where subordinate authority hierarchies determine control. If this is true, given the rational connection between 'control' and willpower, you would expect persons in leadership or high in expertise in general to be very high in willpower beliefs compared to non-leaders/ non-experts. assuming you control for IQ. As well, if given evidence above, 'ambitiousness' should be strongly related to general willpower beliefs whereas stability of willpower beliefs and frequency of application of said beliefs across time should be related to actual success.
I'm so glad we have competent, courageous people like Dr. Peterson and Dr. Haidt who stands up for the truth. It could have been completely the case that we did not have these people, and millions would have fell victims to ideological poisoning, living in nihilism, self destruction, resentment, anxiety, and depression, making enemies of everyone in the world including loved ones, and more. An Asian saying goes "Troubling time births heroes", and it was of utmost delight to see two in the same room, discussing important contemporary problems.
In regards to the Nordic countries when it comes to this phenomenon, I've been starting to pay a little bit of attention here in Norway, and while I'm not in academia (considering studying 3D design and animation at uni later next year) I do have a sister taking gender studies at the most prominent university in the city of Bergen (straight up on the front page they lay out that they're teaching intersectionality, queer theory, Feminist Epistemology, Patriarchy theory etc etc.). Our media is pretty much pushing the "progressive" narrative, there's a lot of distrust and demonization of men, we clearly operate under a lot of Feminist axioms. The scariest thing I encountered so far however, was when reading up on the manifesto of the biggest political party here in Norway during the recent election (of which they and other left-leaning parties almost won) where they wanted to implement some changes to how we deal with discrimination. The first part states that there should be penalties for discrimination (kind of vague about what they were) but that they wanted to not just focus on "overt discrimination" but also "negligence", essentially meaning that they wanted you to be penalized for upsetting/"discriminating" someone by accident. In other words, you didn't have to - intend - to discriminate. I actually managed to talk to the co-leader of said political party in the days before the election, asking her what their justification for this was, and she confirmed that they were targeting "unconscious discrimination". Having heard your argument against unconscious bias testing/training in the past, I was rather horrified. Elated that they didn't win, but horrified that the largest political party in this country is becoming - that - authoritarian. That and practically every political party champions "equity" under the name of gender equality, most of them proposing - further - quotas (we already have them in place). Pardon if I'm a little unclear, I was trying to translate that section of the manifesto from memory.
Robin Barlett: You're describing the institution of Thought Police! Oh, and your sister is absolutely wasting her money and harming society by choosing gender studies, which is misguided ideology masquerading as science. It's a shame, because I think there's a lot to be learned about the spectrum of humanity. It's just utterly stupid when you go from this important area of bio research to making it a crime when you use the wrong pronoun with somebody.
Harry Mills, I have been thinking about this (and it's someting JBP talked about in another video, can't remember which one, there are som many good ones!) and i think that it could actually be good to get in the game and debate the issues right upfront. To take the courses whenever possible. We can't leave Universities bare of diversity, hoping that things will end up right. I would rather argue for everyone to take these courses if possible, in order to learn about it, debate and contribute to a better discourse. A good, well informed dialogue can destroy most uninformed idiots.
Eugene Taggard I currently attend college in Canada and am in the Social Sciences and humanities. I've taken two SJW-heavy courses and find that the main problem with pushing back against my SJW professors was that the assignments and tests are already spun in a way that you must answer according to what is "right." For example, the field of anthropology was defined to me as a field that is necessarily ideological in its pursuit of knowledge. I countered this with the claim that science cannot have an ideological substructure to support itself on. I subsequently "won" the argument in front of the class. Unfortunately, the test question that defined the study of anthropology remained the same. I dropped the course.
I am fairly sure Haidth has had a significantly bigger impact than Peterson. Just look at his books, he was the key note speaker at the American psychological conference. This in a group where 98% is left.
The “Metaphor of immune system” was really WOW 😮, this part 57:48 - 1:08:15 is brilliantly explained, from “disease attacking, to the cure” stage of how to address what’s going on at campuses and culture today
Peterson is so intellectually stimulated during this conversation and you can tell he's so intrigued. It's great to see him talking to someone of a similar intellectual stature.
There has been the Chicago Style Manual for a long time (for academic writing). But more to your point, U of Chicago is in a tough hood and I'm glad to know of their continued "hard ass" approach to defining what is true academics vs. what is fluff, p.c., or whatever.
I am watching this video in March of 2023. Things have only gotten worse in five years since this was posted. There needs to be an update to this video! What is the current situation now, five years later? It's not looking good.
These are probably the two people in the top two spots on my "want to meet in person before I die" list. If only to shake their hands while trying not to say something dumb.
karen straughan- I doubt you would say something dumb Karen. Enjoyed your work for long time. although I would like to see you go all school girl seeing a pop star. Just for my own amusement. lol.
karen straughan make it happen cap’n
I would thoroughly enjoy hearing those conversations
I hope you do meet, have a deep conversation with, and upload your conversation with them. Appreciate you Karen.
Who knows, maybe there are people who would say the same thing about you. Maybe even here in this comment section.
The way jordan Peterson uses his hands when he talks makes me think he’s an undercover Italian
Lmao😂😂
Sonny had five fingers on his hands, but he only ever used two
I grew up with Italians, Jordan's hand movements lean more to his tendency to build things. Just my observation. :)
@@carolethomas6445 Right. It's not exclamatory or emphatic in purpose. He's demonstrating how the pieces of something fit together . . .
Italian here, I've just noticed why Jordan seemed so familiar! 😂
*Personal Notes*
[11:24] Correlation of Disgust with Progressivism vs Conservatism
[14:07] Purity & Sacred Symbols
[14:58] Exploratory Behaviour of Children / Mother as Reference for Center of the World
[15:56] Campus turns into a sacret safe space
[18:53] Political Core Issue: Openness and Borders
JP:
«The conservatives want the borders between categories to remain intact no matter what level of analysis.
From Abstract levels of analysis to the actual physical borders of rooms, towns, states, countries.
They're like "the borders should be thicker."»
From a study: «What they found was, the higher the prevalence of
infectious disease, the higher the probability of bottom-up
authoritarian political attitudes.»
On the on hand Hitler's basic metaphor was that the Aryan race and
country was a pure body and that it was assaulted by parasites,
on the other hand, when the Europeans showed up and shook hands with the
Native Americans, 95% of the latter died within 50 years.
As another example: the European expansion produced a tremendous interachange of ideas from all around the world - that's globalization - but as Europeans started to move around the world they brought back rats and the black death wiped out somewhere between 30-60% of the population at the same time.
[21:50]
*The Omnivore's Dilemma*
«That border issue is what separates conservatives from liberals. The conservatives say, the novel is potentially contaminated. (It's not so much that it's dangerous, that's different, that'd be fear). And the liberals say, hold on a minute, if you make the borders to thick, then informaiton can't pass through.»
*A behavioral Immune System*
«We have the same attitude towards abstract information, so we can think of an invading idea, or a polluting or contaminating idea.»
[23:46]
«So wouldn't it be good, if in every society or every organization we had
- some people who specialized in saying "hey, what are the opportunities"
and
- some people who specialized in saying "well, what are the risks?".
It just so happens that a lot of people having trouble doing that all in themselves.»
«There are people with
- different personalities,
- different motives
- and different goals.
Yeah, we could have a discussion between them,
that'd lead to far better results.
It's for that precise reason at least, that free speech has fundamental value.»
«The liberals start businesses, but they can't run them.
And the conservatives can run them, but they can't continue to transform and expand them.
...yin and yang.»
[25:01]
*What happened in Nazi Germany*
«If you're afraid of something, then you'll run away from it or freeze.
But if something disgusts you, then you'll try to burn it or kill it, atleast get it away.»
Hitler
- first fought tuberculosis,
- then demanded factory owners to get rid of rats and mice and insects with Zyklon-A,
- then he used a variation of that gas and attempted to "clean up the asylums".
You can see how the categorization of impurity (or contamination) escalated:
- first it was public health,
- then social cleanliness,
- then he went into the asylums.
[27:19]
*Disgust and Moral Elevation*
Disgust is a reaction to things that seem to be degrading, metaphorically mostly referred to by a vertical scheme.
[31:16]
*It's really useful to understand that there are actual reasons why people see the world differently.*
...And that you can't easily say that one is right and tha other is wrong:
The liberals are correct when it comes to borders (as in:)
- if you thicken them too much and thus diminish the information flow, you risk making the society so static that any radical environmental transformation will sink it (...that's actually the case!).
But the conservatives are right in that
- you pay a big price for new information under the general risk of exposure to contamination, even contaminating ideas.
*Fundamental Truths about Reality / Life*
«The environment metaphorically moves back and forth like a snake, and what we are trying to do is stay on the center of it's back!
And the only way we can do that is by
- having people pull to the right and say "be careful!"
and
- having people pull to the left and say "well yeah, but be open!".
And maybe with that dialog and the exchange of information which that dialog promotes,
we can specify the current center of that moving goal and actually stay on the back.»
[32:33]
*Emergence of Briliance and Truth*
We are ultra-social, tribal apes with animistic religions.
As individuals we're really kind of stupid creatures, designed to do post hoc reasoning.
But if you put us together in the right way with the right checks and systems,
the whole can vastly smarter than the components.
(which is true of the brain as well.)
As individuals, we are really bad at disconfirming our own ideas.
Only if you put ideas out there and everyone else is motivated to challenge them, the truth comes out.
[34:20]
*No Conservatives in the Academics Anymore*
In the 60s/70s one of the main reasons to go to grad school in the social sciences is either
a) to stay in the school to escape the Vietnam War draft
or
b) to fight for social justice and against racism
The ratio of liberals to conservatives changed because of
- self-selection
- hostile climate/discrimination put forth against unwanted political opinions
[40:19]
*Nihilism and the consequence of scientific ideas to religious fundaments of human society*
«When you throw out a sophisticated religious structure, an unsophisticated religious structure will fill the gap.»
Fundamentalists in the sciences are contributing vastly to the current cultural problem.
[52:23]
*The Desastrous Consequence of Viewing Speech as Violence*
- There used to be a difference between
1) a member of a minority group feeling offended by someone sincerely expressing an idea
and
2) this member being viewed as victim of violence and that the situation thus demands immediate protective action by law
[57:42]
*Traditionally you can put forth any idea you want, if you can back it up with facts.*
Due to excessive politicization of the educational agenda,
- students learn rhetorical techniques instead,
with
- the goal of linking their enemies to something contemptable or disgusting
and
- to provoke a detrimental social outrage targeted against them.
[58:05]
*The Political Immune System Analogy*
Once you're labeled as a racist, it doesn't matter what you actually say, you will now be attacked.
Also, once you're labeled that way, if someone defends you, the label is contagious, right?
...Like in a religious witch-hunt.
That's why there's so much cowardice on campus,
even if the majority thinks that what's going on is nuts.
[01:13:11]
*Overprotection related Depression and Anxiety*
1) Fewer siblings ->
Lack of
- unsupervised rough-and-tumble free play
- playful fight for position in hierachy
- ability to deal with conflict
As a consequence more adults
- assume there has to always be a supervisor to call when there is any type of conflict
- become unable to deal with problems themselves
2) Lack of Fantasy / Identity Play
might manifest itself in form of
- cultural gender-flexibility issue and gender debates
3) Social Plattforms
- the social prevalence of (and early access to) interactive media platforms hugely loads young people, especially girls, with anxiety under the social need for approval and amplifies social relational phenonea like reputation savaging during femal hieracical disputes
4) Rise of Polarization
- mob phenomena: minor public deviation from implicit expectations can attract unlooked-for and individually unforeseen social damage of catastrophic, even career-ending magnitude
[01:23:23]
«Give everyone a place which is safe.
And by safe I mean physically safe.
_Never_ use the word safety to describe emotions and ideas.
Safety means physical safety.»
[01:24:36]
*Inclusion as a Primary Virtue is a Vice*
«There is in-group preference (which to eliminate would be foolish).
And to distinguish that from out-group exclusion is not easy at all.»
«Any virtue carried to extremes becomes a vice.» - Aristotle
[01:28:35]
*Optimistic Perspective*
«We actually think that by just doing academics, that is:
- research, makeing arguments, being calm and civil
that we can turn this around.»
[01:30:46]
*The Corrective Mechanisms*
Duty to the Truth
- never say things that you think are false
- never hesitate to display your scientific opinion
under fear for it to get challenged
Educate your Students and
- do not indoctrinate them or use/(abuse) them as tools for your political agenda
*Optimistic Conclusion:*
If universities make their statements and goals public,
students will thus flood the universities that hold the morally highest principles.
Thank you for sharing these notes!
That was a fantastic job you've done! Thank you
awesome , thank you and greetings from the UK!
Thank you for this
My notes now
"When you throw out a sophisticated religious structure, an unsophisticated religious structure comes in to fill the gap." -JP
Holy crap, that's huge. I can't believe he said that as a passing thought.
Paul The Legend I agree. It’s one of the key observations that explains what is going on in the ‘culture war’ in the US.
I'm far from religious, but that makes a lot of sense.
That actually IS profound. People will fill that void with something, usually something kind of stupid (rabid feminism, cross-fit, veganism, political ideology, etc).
@@GuppyPal or ideas like ANTIFA. What the hell is up with all the ANTIFA violence hiding behind a mask of "caring for animals".
@@BakuganMinion I think you might mean PETA :). ANTIFA does engage in violence, but it's mostly aimed towards the far right (Nazis, etc.)...not animals.
This is Haidt Speech!
Lolol!!! ;) I happen to love Haidt speech! And i love Haidt too!
Lol!
Get out >o__o>
People Health Truth - if you pronounce it correctly, it would sound like "Height Speech", which could only be problematic in cases like Randy Newman''s song 'Short People', which was actually written ironically...and a lot of idiots started labeling it as bigoted. It was one of the reasons Randy became disgusted with the mentality of the pop music audience, and transitioned into movie soundtracks.
AVE Heidt! 😂
I couldn't decide whether or not I wanted to listen to Jonathan Haidt or Jordan Peterson, and then I found this video...
Brendan Cescon
Isn’t it great? :) I was so happy to find this.
I just had this dilemma, no joke.
@@mdntctyvlcn LOL I just finished Jonathan Haidt's book "The Coddling of the American Mind." Highly recommend it if you haven't read it yet! Gonna pick up one by Peterson next.
Brendan Cescon I agree great book, would recommend!
Wow. Same
I love the way they play off each other. If one of them ever has an incomplete thought, the other chimes in and completes it for him promptly. Makes for an incredibly fluid and educational conversation.
I feel like I’m sitting at the feet of our modern Socrates and Aristotle while they have a chat and I’m struggling to keep up.
I think your being dramatic.
Shawna Weesner Thinking is good.
I have to say I listened to so many before arriving to them.
Can you feel it? The rebirth of something? Here online, and in quiet libraries, and in those moments where eyes meet and you find another soul who sees it. Don't let the flame flicker and go out.
Marcus Aurelius 🔥
Thanks Marcus Aurelius! I've always been a fan of your old writings, especially the collection of your meditations
lol
HEY! HEY! THIS IS LIBRARY!!
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Oh it's here...this knowledge is here to stay.
Fantastic conversation. Thank God for people like Jonathan and Jordan Peterson - paragons of sanity in an insane world
Imagine all the intellectuals who choose not to go into universities because of their absolute insane policies and the prevailing club mentality which says 'You must pay us outrageous sums of money and conform to our views if you are you to receive any accolades'.
Imagine how many Einsteins and scientific breakthroughs humanity has missed out on simply because so many intellectuals aren't willing to go along with such stupidity. This is a centuries old problem that seems to be getting progressively worse.
I'm studying social work in Australia and I'm so frustrated by the lack of encouragement to criticize ideas. I had a professor who told me if I did an essay that criticized feminism I would get an instant fail because it's not in consensus with the majority of evidence. I actually really disrespect the discipline at this point it's just tribalism.
Your professor isn't looking at all the evidence.
@@kicknadeadcat Ive heard that type of debating occurs in philosophy classes. I personally would love that sort of thing.
So someone did a study in order to create evidence that states that criticism of feminism is unacceptable?
Yea... that professor needs to be fired immediately because that is categorically false. Criticism is the method under which we both clarify and simultaneously fortify our ideals and by extension, ourselves. Without criticism..... we die....
Your professor should be immediately and unconditionally removed from their position and never allowed to teach again unless they can prove that they value education over indoctrination.
Luca, if you're critical of your own beliefs and you have managed to develop analytical skills, this is going to make you cringe hard one day lol
@@thatsterroristsbro7855 I'm sorry, whats going to make me cringe hard?
need to hear this same conversation in 2020... like right now!
Dr. Peterson, can you host Dr. Haidt for another talk soon? I could listen to you two chat for another five hours.
Agreed!
1 year later...YES!
Keith Spokaloo I came from the JRE podcast with Jon I was hopping to hear more about kids growing up inside this new era
Two years later. Yes!
Sooo true!
Amazing how the internet has reduced the gap between vanguard academia and public perspective on topical issues.
"the higher the prevalence of infectious disease the higher the probability of totalitarian or authoritarian political attitudes" - we need to have discussion about this given the current coronavirus situation 20:12
And note which political ideologies have used the opportunity to seize a tight control over the public and which ideology has let their citizens be free!
Using any single disease as the "case in point" to back up your statement is foolish. One could and should argue that the rate of infectious diseases in the US is markedly lower than 95% of the rest of the world. You have to look at ALL infectious diseases within a given society and THEN make the determination, not just 1 disease, that would be a unidimensional study... which is quite literally the opposite of the correct way to study variables.
I get your point, but it's a pretty shallow way to interpret the statement made in the quote you cited.
Yeah isn't that a hydrogen bomb of a realization? I realized the other day... The far-right, tyrannical father, is a constant thirst for order, which is represented by an unending pointing-at toward the current 'pest' (the thirst of which is what gives the person in that state of mind the feeling of disorder; the person, in this example, simply can't live without a pest to exterminate), whereas the far-left, tyrannical mother, is a constant allowance of everything matched with the refusal to recognize the presence of a problem for the sake of maintaining the thought that everything is ok (utopia). The biggest problem with the latter is the fact that, in order to maintain the thought across a large group of people that everything is ok (despite the obvious knowledge of the presence of a problem), those people who refuse to give up their thought of utopia must get rid of the ones who speak up and tell the truth about the problem at hand and the fact that the utopia is a farce, thus in turn creating the ones toward whom they can point with their 'pure' fingers. I recognize the far-right example with Hitler's regime, and the far-left with Stalin's. But I also recognize the far-left example as what we see happening now in current-day America; the popular SJW-type mode of thought is the representation of 'utopia', and anyone who speaks or acts otherwise is attempted to be thrown out of the entire game. I see that this is why both examples lead to the same thing, besides the unfortunately crystal-clear evidence we have of this in the 20th century.
(I'm still working on my definition of the far-left example, but I think you get the point)
Google isadick so the point of “infectious Disease” (COVID-19) and the current rise of political control isn’t a valid view?
I mean look at the “camps” that are popping up for those whom do not “comply”, and the current politicalization of “social Justice”...seems accurate enough for this modern day scenario
@@derekknight8261 The prevalence of infectious disease that they're referring to is when societies don't have antibiotics, vaccines, public health, or even running water. Societies where food insecurity, infant mortality, and STDs are much higher. One instance of a particularly infectious disease like Covid-19 affecting developed, western societies doesn't necessarily produce the long term authoritarian cultural values that you see in India, sub-Saharan Africa, and the Middle East, that were ubiquitous in the entire world up until the last century.
"Give everyone a place which is safe and by same I mean physically safety, never use the word safety to describe emotions and ideas"
- Jonathan Haidt
The universities that fail to understand and implement this must perish.
Feels like a meeting between two Jedi Knights.
A Jonathan Haidt lecture was my "Red Pill" moment.
So. Accurate. If not Jedi Masters.
The Jedi's go to Brown. These two belong to THE EMPIRE!
Black Pidgey Speaks more like Grey Jedi Masters
dude exactly
Dr. Jonathan Haidt is an amazing voice of reason and intelligence.
I love the doggie face (?) you used to represent yourself!
JP: "What am I...chopped liver?!"
@@shawnaweesner3759 🤦♂️
He could learn to talk 50/50
I so admire the way Dr. Peterson was able to contain himself and let Dr Haidt speak to his areas of expertise. It's almost as if he assumes that the person he's talking to knows something he doesn't. Go figure! It's nice to see Karen Straughan here in the comments section showing similar humility.
"It's almost as if he assumes that the person he's talking to knows something he doesn't" that's one of his 12 rules for life, actually. Would be odd of him not to follow his own advice on how to live a better life 😅
Exactly. Thats' what makes for a good interviewer
The more I hear from Dr. Haidt, the more I want to hear. I read “The Coddling of the American Mind” in 3 days. Couldn’t put it down. This conversation is just brilliant.
Wow, this is even better than the Peterson-Paglia interview.
It's impressive that these guys support their arguments by verbally citing researchers or studies to provide supporting evidence. Real data must be a lot harder to remember than "Hey hey, ho ho..."
Dr. Peterson has done a great thing in using his channel to spotlight these conversations.
Paglia is like a mad genius, she's all over the place but always lands her point in an almost irrefutable manner.
Vote this comment up to show, that this isn't only happening in English speaking countries.
Greetings from Germany, conservatives are hopelessly outnumbered on universities here
Cateline Delabrinno as far as I know the kids really like the blackface party and before anybody judges this, please have a look on that and speak with a reasonable Dutch - it's tradition and it's not as racist as the left wants to make it look like.
Maybe the sjws are viewed as lunatics in the Netherlands, but I'm on a university in northrine Westphalia and unfortunately there really some people that see them as virtuous and want them to succeed in political university student parties.
We even had some talks about white privilege and the horrors of German colonialism on our campus, which where directly reflected on Germans today. They even advised germans to go there because "they lack the understanding of white privilege".
I don't know what to make of this. I spoke out against that shot several times, but the backfiring was heavy.
Hey laguzussowilo, I'm also from Germany. What do you tell people who say that this doesn't affect us because we're not the U.S.?
It also happens here in Europe, sure, not as extreme yet, but hey would we even know? I mean anyone like them what the called Nazi and shut down. So, who of the Nazis is actually not one and could be a JP or Haidt?
Another reason why I think we do not know as did Europeans suck at marketing and remain in their closet instead of going to public and brag about their ideas....
BarefootSamuraiX well I easily got called a Nazi, a racist, a homophobe and a transphobe because I called out against a gender neutral toilet. Not because I'm against transgender, but because about the unforseeable consequences.
And I'm not a Nazi, definitely not. I value the individual and truth is one of my highest good. I don't care about group identities, I don't care about skin color, about political views and stuff, I wasn't raised like that.
I wouldn't add that second paragraph. Feeling obligated to defend yourself from these accusations is what got us here in the first place.
So, the central message is: "Hey, lighten up, toughen up, smarten up" rather than "here is a soother and a diaper and a nose clamp". A healthy growth process to robustness and competence and confidence in the real world rather than a protection of infantilism, hissy fits and meltdowns... Come up with cogent, coherent, convincing arguments rather than snide slurs, labels and put-downs... "
Spirit of encouraging Father was replaced by spirit of overprotective Mother
👍😷
Who's watching this in 2020, where it looks like the battle is lost. The media is completely lost now, too.
My thoughts exactly.
There's still hope ! Keep reading, writing, and speaking to your friends and family !
I would argue there's never been a better time to re-colonize the Academy. These people are weak, their minds are fragile. A rush and a push, and the universities will be ours. I went back to school (a Big Ten university) and I feel like I'm surrounded by subpar thinkers. These people are so distracted and shattered, and addicted to their screens. I'm quite serious when I say we should all enroll en masse right now, and try to sweep all the trash away. The timing is perfect.
There is still hope, we just have to keep speaking up. I live in California and I refuse to give in.
Oh, I agree we can't stop fighting or give up hope entirely. But we have to assess our situation realistically and realize it's a massive uphill climb from here.
Epiphany: The point at which a person that leaned left for their entire life suddenly realized that a large percentage of his fellow-travelers are raving lunatics are on a path that will tear civilized society apart.
Mike Betts to be fair it's not uncommon to realize that on both sides. It's just the right is better and cordoning off third crazies and making clear demarcation between then normal right, the far right, the dissident right and loons.
Reko; if you had listened anything these two put out you'd know right wing is high in trait conscientiousness. No need for conspiracy theories.
jeff swanson I didn't dispute that, you don't really understand how refuting a point works do you. You have to refute something that I said then make a pithy quip, if making one at all.
You just made a thinly veiled insult then refuted nothing. Work on that, Kay, bye.
Reverend Reko- Work on not coming off as such a passive aggressive coward. Kay Bye.
Benedicite Sol hu, seem a lot of people are hear using words they don't understand.
I was being condescending. If you need me to explain what that means, just let me know and I'll try to dumb it down enough for you.
As for you're 'insult', as it has nothing to do with anything discussed, it's baseless. For an insult to have bite it has to in some way be applicable. Given nothing in this limited exchange could grant any insight on that label, it means nothing. However I do find it telling when people resort to random insults. It's a very interesting thing, to see where their brain goes as it will likely go towards something they detest, about themselves at least. Of course it's not always the case so I cannot confidently assert your cowardliness. I can only suspect it.
Haight's mic is sidechaining hard enough to be the dubstep anthem of 2014.
This comment deserves so much more attention and Likes! :'D
LOL
Not enough audio engineering nerds.
For the ignorant, would you please explain this comment?
Sidechaining is when the presence of one vocal track reduces the volume of another audio playing at the same time. When a kick hits in a dubstep song, it's usually sidechained to the melody so that the instant the kick hits, the melody reduces in volume and comes back to normal when the kick stops hitting (depending on the release time of the sidechain compressor).-
Anyone wondering how these 2 brilliant minds can be so humble...? And why is it we are voting for politicians in the 1st place...?
“We have a duty to speak the truth and educate not indoctrinate”
Love this, must speak truth as see it 💕
I'm glad to see Jordan Peterson seemingly taking to heart the criticism from past videos that he talked way too much in interviews where he was the interviewer. You can actually see and hear the points in the video where he abridged his very open, tangential mind and segued into asking more questions to Jonathan Haidt. He also said in a couple podcasts that he has been on that he knows that is one of his character faults. It's refreshing to know he is actually reading the feedback he is getting on his videos.
I believe he already knew this, he talked about how he did it with his patients and it is always on his mind to not talk as much, but he kind of states, he is wired to do so. Regardless, he is not saying "I am just that way", he is still trying to improve.
It helps that he's interviewing an intellectual and scholarly equal who has his own areas of specialization. A great conversation ensues also because their areas of study and expertise overlap as well as diverge.
Goddamn. I haven't heard so much sense in all my 49 yrs. Mind blown!
Jonathan Haidt is really good at breaking down and explaining complex ideas and concepts in very simple terms. He's definitely one of my favorite people to listen to.
Wow! These brilliant minds. Jonathan literally predicted where the colleges and leftist were headed... religion. Everyone is talking about that now.
yes, but what can we do about it?
These production values are seriously good.
Roughly speaking.
Thats what that patreon-money gets ya
everything but an audio engineer
Why cant they just separate the audio track and sync i can do that in my phone in 2 seconds
mpfmax0
With what software, if you don't mind me asking? Is it free?
I have an Android, and if it comes stock on my phone than I wasn't aware of it. Although I've had Androids for a while, this phone is a bit different and is mostly used in Asia as opposed to the US, so it's a bit... different. It also has some minor compatibility issues with some American cell providers/features, but if all I have to do is download an app or something, that should work fine
GubbaNubNubDooRahKah i use a video editing app called lumafusion which is the best one i have found on iOS, but it wasn't free. I think it costs around 20 dollars. I don't know it they also have an android version unfortunately.
I have changed so much in the last year. Largely due to the reading Peterson has suggested and productions like this.
William Thompson amen to that .. i don’t even recognize myself
I can only hope that these calm, rational, and intelligent voices ultimately prevail.
they won't. they didn't. they move on to a different platform/field, like anyone else.
It is always fascinating to watch two wise people in a conversation/ discussion of any kind, which is a relatively rare spectacle nowadays.
That opening is class
It's like if you took the ten classiest things in the world and distilled them into a type of meta class, and got the archetypal representation of class, roughly speaking... and it took a long time to come up with that, man! I mean these are not trivial things. We had to act it out before we got that youtube intro.
Lol if only I could like your comment to a higher plane of existence
Would love to see an interview with Chicago Professor Rachel Brown about the SJW attack on her and Western History!! I think me and the rest of your listeners would love that!
Everyone upvote this please so Professor Peterson will see it!
Would love to see that interview too!
Candle Light no, i would not love that. i wouldn't in the least
Why not?
It was great to watch these two intellectual giants having a valuable (and unscripted) conversation.
Discovering Peterson was my 'trip to India'
His calm and thoughtful methods of thinking have given the right side of politics and thought their space to heard and debated, instead of instant dismissal under the impression that 'I'll probably just diagree'
With thanks Extreme Left, for literally deafening me in 1 ear, & thanks to Peterson for unblocking the clog.
These are two great minds and thinkers. I think that Haidt has a better sense of how to translate ideas to the public. Peterson may not be as good at exposition as Haidt, but he speaks more passionately about his ideas and it can make him more listenable.
Roderick Graham or one could say that JP is speaking to conservative/religious and Haidt speaks to liberal/materialists. Both speak important truths.
Roderick Graham well said
Peterson is a _bloody_ good public communicator, y'know?
Religion isn't a social construct so much as something we are wired for. Just the nature of consciousness and unanswerable questions. Constructing a framework in which our existence has meaning beyond eating, shitting and dying is very good for very many people, even though it's rooted mostly in fabrication.
I could listen to Jordan Peterson from now until forever. I just cannot get enough. I love his passion, that razor sharp mind, and how incredibly thought-provoking his lectures are. I appreciate Haidt's openness, point of view, and scholarship, but he is not on par with Peterson in my opinion.
This conversation is so damn important
"Ok but I just refreshed my TikTok feed." - my generation
Such an important discussion, can't believe I'm only seeing it now, and it wasn't even in my recommened, I just stumbled upon it in a playlist!
I've liked, shared (to my own email lol) and commented on this video just to have it hopefully be recommended to others.
This talk makes so much sense living here in India too. I'm a centrist leaning right. I remember we had these CAA/NRC protests (you can search up on Google to know what they were to realise what they really mean). I posted my unbiased opinion on my Instagram and was attacked by my so called friends at college. They didn't want to debate. They just labelled me Islamophobic and that was it. It's not just an Anglo thing now. This is happening all over the world. I'm so happy that I got to see this interview. It made me more strong. Thank you Dr. Peterson and Dr. Haidt. I have more solid arguments the next time someone comes at me with "slurs". Definitely checking out Heterodoxy academy.
Wow, thanks
I couldn't have asked for a better birthday present. I have about 20 pages left of 'The Righteous Mind'. One of best books I've read hands down.
Wyatt Siefert ah I just started reading that book! I even had Metaphors We Live By which Jonathan mentioned. God everything is coming together. All that's left is that we internalize all this knowledge.
Read the happiness hypothesis. It is even better than the righteous mind. Atleast in my opinion.
We share a birthday. Happy birthday, glad we both get to enjoy this talk.
Happy Birthday - looks like a great year ahead! Cheers! :)
Happy birthday to both you and Wyatt. Make sure to thank your parents and give a gift to your mums.
I graduated from a film program, and a huge percentage of my friends on Facebook are now very left leaning. I frequently post Jordan Peterson/Classical Liberal/Libertarian opinions on Facebook in a totally respectful manner and I never get any pushback over it. Most people just accept far left opinions, but aren't really into arguing over them because they don't actually understand the reasons for the opinions. I just hope that when I post these things, that they'll plant a seed in people's brains of a differing opinion, backed with reasons, and eventually it'll change people's minds, because I try my hardest to post my opinions in a non-confrontational way. The best way to have someone reject your opinion is if you make it confrontational. As soon as it becomes an argument and not a conversation, people need to win, not learn.
When you say left-leaning, do you mean socialist or communist? I often find that people post communistic content or memes on facebook as a way of signaling their edginess and counterculture cred, much like dying their hair a neon color, but really aren't willing to defend it. I mean, they just want noncommittally to advocate a position that's killed 100MM in the 20th Century, so why do you have to harsh their buzz?
DeflatingAtheism no like the typical person who doesn’t really know what they’re saying but support BLM and are super supportive of LGBTQ and like affirmative action equity type stuff. Just the typical modern day liberal, not the militant sjw types. At least I don’t think they are.
J. D. Stembal it doesn’t need to be a confrontation. It has to be dialectic. Both sides need to speak and more importantly listen. It’s human nature to block out foreign ideas that are expressed aggressively/confrontationally. Instead of blaming the other person for being too emotional and not listening, why not try a different approach? Big conservatives youtubers are just as annoying now because half the time they just talk shit with facts sprinkled in. I don’t want to watch a shit talking competition. I want to see nice calm conversations like this.
Trevor Schmidt Productions Great point. Listening can lead to learning a lot. I sound like Mr. Rogers lol.
I lost a few by posting Jordan's stuff to my Facebook.
It seems a lot of people have a problem with Haidt identifying fundamentalism as a problem. I think these people have forgotten that fundamentalism as a word existed before it had a negative association with particular groups. Anyone can be a fundamentalist, whether in religion, politics, economics, civics etc. The basic idea with a fundamentalist is they lack complexity and over simplify things to unrealistic "fundamentals." So it is similar to being an ideologue.
Kwadwo Obeng Kyei-Baffour well said.
Personally I just quibble with the definition of 'fundamentalist' here and think Haidt might be better off finding another word. Because there's nowhere near consensus that the word implies over-simplification etc -- as a word it just suggests someone who's gone back to the 'fundamental' building blocks of some system of thinking, and is taking care to get those fundamentals in order and rebuild their complex system based on well-ordered fundamentals rather than disordered fundamentals. At least that's what I take from the word. So if there's so much disagreement about this definition (since it's fair that you don't share mine) I think for practical purposes he should just find a different one (or at least define his *very precisely* before every occasion of using it).
@@tryforthesky2224 fundamentalism is characterised as the strict literalisn in terms of adherence to specific scriptures (as in religious fundamentalism) dogmas or idealogies. The word fundamental applies to whichever of these a particular person or group has chosen.
Using fundamental as a synonym for basic as in "back to basics" as though it is a building block upon which ideas or knowledge should start is simply not correct. It would actually be a block upon which your beliefs should start and end.
@@AGfrom83 I believe it becomes a bit of a semantical argument, and that's the issue. What do we "mean" when we say X, etc. The lack of consensus makes it all the more nebulous. Fundamentals as a concept are essential, as well, particularly among people who are more conscientious.
For instance when you say
"Using fundamental as a synonym for basic as in "back to basics" as though it is a building block upon which ideas or knowledge should start is simply not correct."
That's not correct, because that is the precise definition of "fundamentals" in terms of games and sports, where you first have to learn how to stand/hold your racket/club properly/Practice good balance, etc. before you can go on to learning more advanced facets of your particular arena of competition.
So "fundamental" in the strictly academic sense might not mean exactly that, but in practical usage of the word that is the accepted definition.
I agree he needs a better word. Like “evolution” it has several meanings. He equated fundamentalists Christians as necessarily being young Earth creationist which is not always the case. I consider myself a fundamentalist Christian and I have a science background and believe the Earth is 4.5 billion years old.
Looking back on this now in 2022 (4yrs later), Haidt's optimism with college campuses is grossly misplaced.
It blows me away that a profession of this caliber could ever conceive the notion that college campuses begin to self-correct without any major blow to the institution or the ideology that promotes the madness on campuses.
@@JovanySkywalker Link?
Damn Jordan, putting out great content like nobody's business. Keep up the great work!
Lots of love from Austria
By the way, Ich habe eine Facebookgruppe für deutschsprachige Buckos geöffnet. "Jordan Peterson - Deutsch"
Alright :)
Speak engrish plz
Alois Raich Grazer hier der alle Videos der beiden gesehen hat.
volume on max, listening acutely but wishing it were mastered higher
Yes. Audio.
Especially when Haidt says something.
And a little de-essing on Peterson’s louder parts would have saved my ears.
yeah JP you had an issue with Jon's mic throughout the middle! Can this be re-edited?
What a pleasure to hear Dr. Peterson talking to someone at his level. It’s so rare that anyone comes close. That made this video a true joy to listen to despite the gravity of the topic. I feel slightly more optimistic hearing some of Dr. Haitd’s ideas for solutions and also that there are some initiatives already underway with results that are looking positive thus far.
I’m late in viewing this. At the time of this writing, this video is over a year old, so I’m going to take a look to see if there’s an update. If there isn’t, I’d like to suggest this exercise be repeated at least once a year to give us an update on how both feel things are going in the universities. I’d be very interested to hear thoughts on how things appear to be trending.
Reading Coddling of the American Mind now and thoroughly enjoying it.
I was a psych major in undergrad and I'm pretty sure my social psychology professor was subtly trying to redpill his students by introducing us to j haidt, J Peterson, and S pinker. It gives me hope for the future of psychology as a discipline because right now it's highly politicized (left). Anyway. Love these two
Interesting, I'm beginning to read much more of Haidt and Pinker. Did you switch majors Ann?
You mean overtly. Lol
This is great. My social psychology professor make us take implicit bias tests lol :/
@@jeuen6933 what is that
By redpill I think you mean enlighten
**sigh** **takes out vacuum cleaner**
The internet is growing up hahahaha
hahahahahaaha
Why was this the funniest thing I've read in the past month?
yeah Haidt HAD to mention the room...and its cleanliness/orderliness...or in MY case the lack thereof...
You too eh? Life is short and brutal isn't it? The dust bunnies of my psychie beckon me. Oh the horror...
"I'm actually optimistic about whats going to happen on campus"
Oh man... coming from 2020 and watching this is depressing lol.
Jonathan Haidt in 2015: "Hey guys, if we don't turn this around and soon, the shit that is happening on the college campuses is going to reach the rest of society in about 5 years"
Has it been going on for decades? Maybe you could argue on some level it was going on in the background, but it wasn't until very recently (1 or 2 years?) That it became this open. I really think Haidt was right, back in 2015 we still had a chance to correct things by addressing what waa going on on college campuses before those kids graduated and brought it to the 'real' world. He was just wrong for being optimistic about that happening and now its too little too late.
Headed for bad times no doubt, i don't know how any reasonable person could still have any optimism about the current state of things.
@@ohgodmynutbladder ok. “In the background”. I saw it developing as early as 1973 when I worked at Esalen Institute’s (now-defunct) San Francisco office. Lefties & hypocrites, all.
@@ohgodmynutbladder 2022 it gets worse
It's worse now
Joy and happiness! Two of the West's premier intellects engaged in civilized discourse, listening to each other, exploring ideas. So rare today. Than you gentleman for a stimulating, satisfying hour.
What an important conversation. Damn. This is probably the first person I've seen offer some healthy rational resistance to Peterson. We need more people that can bounce good data and ideas off each other. Keep strong and thanks for walking us all through this epic journey.
Finally, being an Intellectual is becoming "cool" again! There is hope!
Hmm. Let’s hope so...
Right?... and sexy
Yes except find multiple sources for your information. These guys are right about a lot of things but that does not mean their conclusions and ideology is unchallenged
I'm confused. When was it not?
@@WhenAphroditeSpeaks Always been cool. Always been sexy 😄
OMG. I'm so late to this party. I have known and followed Dr. Peterson for a while now but I found out about Dr. Haidt only after he came on Bill Maher. Hated the part where Bill kept interrupting Dr. Haidt. Then I watched NYU School of Law's The Forum with Dr. Haidt, just finished reading Coddling of The American Mind (the book) two days back, and here I am, discovering the two legends sharing ideas and wisdom. Wish this video never ended.
There’s some kind of compression, especially on Jon Haidt’s mic that causes him to be nearly inaudible when he speaks more softly in this interview.
Please re-release this with the compression (or other audio problem) fixed.
the sound on his side gives me a headache. totally spoils an otherwise amazing experience. just dreadful.
Amen
Glad other people mention this. I thought it was my Ipad. I sadly missed several of Dr. Haidt's points because of poor audio.
lvn4x yes! I had to rewind multiple times to hear what Dr Haidt had said. Not to mention understand...made it even more difficult as someone who is not on this intellectual level 💡🤬
I think it might be auto mix. Shame. good mics, possibly bad sound recordist or camera op doing sound.
As a man finishing up his master's in education, I can assure you Petersen is absolutely correct.
I can't tell you the number of times we've been extorted to be "change agents," and we all know what kind of "change" they are want to impose.
I have been in two classes where White women burst out into tears when coming to terms with the same of their 'Whiteness." I can only imagine what they will be teaching White students, particularly boys, when they get out in the classroom.
However, one of the things I find interesting that when I have confronted a professor about this directly, he will backpedal. For example, I would often ask what sort of "penance" I need to do as a White Man, he would respond that White or male privilege is not like that and quickly change the subject. I think at some level they recognize the religious nature of what they are teaching and feel ashamed of it.
Lol, I like the cut of your jib.
'Penance' nailed it. Right on!
Andrew Stallard isn't exaggerating. I'm in a Master's in the social sciences (and a woman, by the way -- and so thankful to be a woman considering the evil abuse I've heard thrown at men in back rooms, and knowing what a concrete impact academics are INTENTIONALLY having against people who happen to be male, to counteract some supposed 'natural' privilege possessed by all white males) and it's tragic the number of women who've allowed themselves to be trained to feel hysterical about race and gender. There's nothing academic about it -- and it's horrifying to imagine these people going out there to try to 'school' others with their warped worldview. I honestly believe these people are deeply wounded and victim culture makes them and their mental fragilities so much worse off, whereas being empowered and required to conduct themselves as rational adults would enable them to recognize so many of the pressures they whine about as *literally nothing.* And they (and the rest of us) would be so much happier and mentally (and socially) healthy for it.
The only thing that reassures me is knowing that while I'm sitting in the room listening to all of the "change agent" garbage (knowing exactly what they mean by it), I can also know that internally I'm taking notes and am not going with their program -- and I can have hope that other sane people are also recognizing this garbage for what it is, and intend to move forward in a sane way instead of garbage way themselves.
White guy here (laughable I find myself mentioning this but the context is tragically relevant nowadays) - just starting out with school at the county college level under a social sciences degree, intent is clinical counseling. I’ve been told that I, “had no right to speak about black issues” during a discussion about slavery-era history, the civil rights acts, etc. (in a Race & Ethnicity class).
I told her that I had every right to speak and that she was in the unfortunate situation of not understanding that... I already see it at the peer level.
Naitiesurië Ilúvatariel so refreshing to read. At times I feel as though I’m in hiding or something. Having to pay attention to the ways in which people push the narrative. I work in a social work-type environment and my advisor recently stated that white men have had unfair advantages for all of human history and it made me genuinely uneasy to recognize the warped and ignorant resentment in her voice towards men.
Wow. This is a brilliant conversation, mind-blowingly honest and detached, while obviously passionately pursuing a just truth. Feels good to have these minds working on our behalf.
The world isn't lost after all, huh?
they are not working, and certainly not on your behalf
I think disgust is nothing but a very strong rejection of the other. The human mind finds always something awful in the other tribe: pigmeet, parasites... If it does not find anything, it makes things up. All ihese aspects are not the reason for rejection, they are only the alibi, the most impressive argument, the most humilating aspect against a hated opponent or enemy. As more enemy, the more disgust., the more radical the alibis of rejection. The deepest reasons for rejecting is the different temperament, the different character, left and right, Kain and Abel.
DR. Jonathan, thank you for continuing to speak. OMFW we wish Professor Peterson a speedy recovery. He is in my prayers. It is as if i remember these golden days when the two of you were having these big conversations, and all of a sudden a very chaotic world started to make more sense. I want you to have these conversations again.
Lots of respect from Ukraine!
You two are hope for all mankind and humanity!
Do I flag this as porn?
SgtBuck 😂
😁
...yes
SgtBuck NSFW
I believe the contemporary student practice is to flag everything they don't like as Hate Speech.
I have never been more excited for a RUclips video in my life.
Phenomenal discussion.
The fact that we get to see this on RUclips, on our laptops/phones is special.
This is the only person I've ever seen Jordan Peterson talk to that is just as smart and eloquent as him.
THANK YOU Dr. Peterson for posting this. I am a social worker in Central Oregon and I am VERY concerned about the future of my alma mater. I provide field instruction for students interning at sites that do not have social workers on staff. In the past few years, I have had more and more students telling me that they have been intimidated and no longer express their ideas freely. Last year, I had a student who reported that a student on campus referred to all white women as being untrustworthy, and used the pejorative term of all pejorative terms, and the instructor said nothing. This was a violation of the student handbook and frankly a violation of the social work code of ethics with respect to collegiality. I found myself so fearful of confronting this for fear of being shunned. What has helped me in the past year is the discovery of your work. Interestingly enough, it felt like blasphemy to be learning about you and many other people who have been banned from speaking on campuses. It turns out this is the healthiest thing I could have done. I just signed on for an advisory board and will turn from this video to the resources you and Dr. Haidt have referred to here. Again, thank you so very much!
Last year I started to like you Jordan P but since your talk with Ms Ali, Camille Paglia and now Haidt I adore you.... much love from brazil 😘😍😘
Camille Paglia really impressed me. With all respect to Peterson, it was her show.
The way these two get to the heart of issues is incredible
Thank you so much gentlemen! This was wildly fascinating. I’ll be using some of this in a paper I’m writing about free speech. I’ll also be buying your books and continue to follow you both. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Jonathan Haidt outshines any intellectual I've read or listened to in the past 20 years.
@Mike Hansen Yes. Hitchens was a journalist, his empirical base for evidence is much smaller compared to an actual researcher. Sam Harris sometimes has problems with his overblown ego that gets in the way of his reasoning.
Two of my favorite scholars-right-of-center Jordan B. Peterson, left-of-center Jonathan D. Haidt-having a discussion that all academics should be having (or at least listening in on). These two rank as high for me as Steven Pinker and Robert Wright. (Funny, I just now realized that all four are psychologists, psychologists that take evolutionary biology quite seriously.) Reading/listening to Peterson-in conjunction with Wright (The Evolution of God, Why Buddhism is True)-transformed my atheism into agnosticism; and reading/listening to Haidt-in conjunction with Pinker (The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature, The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined)-transformed my leftism into liberalism. Peterson's one of the wisest human beings that I've read/listened to, and Haidt's one of the most thoughtful human beings that I've read/listened to, so to hear these two talking-together-was quite a treat for me.
I'm pleasantly surprised by how many people use the 'w'-word- _wisdom_ - in reference to Peterson. In a world of 'critical theory', lets make wisdom a thing again!
"What's happening on the campuses will be moving into society in five years." ......3 years later.
So many sentences of wisdom throughout this video I found myself jumping back, contemplating what was just said, and playing back again. I'm better for it. Thank you gentlemen for sharing your brilliance!
Thank you Jonathan Haidt, for keeping Jordan on track. I am, myself, learning how not to permit the rush of ideas to interrupt the person with whom I am conversing.
it's actually the other way around. Peterson kept himself on the track since he clearly disagrees with heidt on some issues but managed to not be so aggressive out of respect and consideration for heidt's work
Great video production but you need an audio engineer to mix your audio. The dialogue is not compressed, de-essed, & loud enough.
Heavy on the low end too. But yes, the quality has improved significantly and continues to do so. I have no doubt the remaining kinks will be worked out over time.
Also the white balance was really bad in the side shots, it made Peterson look anaemic.
i thought i was trippin, lol at it wasnt my chromebook
YES! I was really looking forward to hearing this, but Haidt often trails off into a whisper and I couldn’t make out half of what he was saying.
Love whole dialogue, especially (at the end) market place solution with fair promotion
We were assigned part of The Coddling of the American Mind in one of my classes as an opposing view, and it was actually received pretty well.
Yup
Not even half way through and this discussion is already tremendous.
A hypothesis: Maybe the connection between disgust and willpower has something to do with the willingness to confront and/or kill the thing which disgusts you. You can be disgusted by something and also fear it, a spider or snake for instance, and it takes willpower to overcome the fear in order to carry out the necessary reaction to the disgust. One might thereby elevate the value of willpower if his disgust is of great import to him.
Or maybe it has something to do with feeling disgust at yourself for being lazy.
You also need willpower to clean your room or wash the dishes. General mundane work requires willpower, pursuing new exciting things Not so much lol
They mentioned this early on in the talk- fear makes you run, whereas disgust makes you want to destroy, or purify as with fire. In this sense, both galvanize the individual to a compulsive sort of action, but one drives you toward the object or situation of concern rather than away from it. Which is obviously a very interesting distinction.
@joshualbatros @andy Brice
Both insightful. To take both threads, will power beliefs are based on the notion that through effort of will an outcome can be achieved. That is, it is something you would expect in people high in personal responsibility measures.
It is possible that since being orderly requires effort and continual maintenance. as well that an 'ordered state' is fundamentally transformed from a 'disordered one' and in its visual order confirms the result of ones will vis effort on the originally 'disordered' environment. (All environments tend towards disorder if not maintained or organized). That order reinforces willpower beliefs.
Let us then suppose that all desires have answers and that no desire comes without its fulfilling complement. If we take it that we like order, it is pleasurable, and disorder greatly displeases us. We can believe our desire for order is justified. But given that it requires effort (and humans hate useless/ meaningless effort), it is impossible to justify effortfull organization of the world if we are not responsible for it (making it senseless or illegal for us to do it).
Since responsibility is a matter of both attribution and position. For position, the leader is ALWAYS fundamentally more responsible than the subordinate as the leader has more power of effect. As well, for attribution In a far 'higher sense' the best way to enable the free fulfillment of the desire for orderliness is to prevent its obstruction by beliefs of non-responsibility. That is to prevent attributions which make it impossible or unreasonable for you to 'fix' the problem of disorder and delay your own wish fulfillment.
Given all of this, the most maximally efficient belief (even when it is incorrect) if you want to fulfill your desire for order, is to believe staunchly in the power of will to overcome circumstance. This applies to both environmental challenges which are technical or mysterious in nature to political and social challenges where subordinate authority hierarchies determine control.
If this is true, given the rational connection between 'control' and willpower, you would expect persons in leadership or high in expertise in general to be very high in willpower beliefs compared to non-leaders/ non-experts. assuming you control for IQ.
As well, if given evidence above, 'ambitiousness' should be strongly related to general willpower beliefs whereas stability of willpower beliefs and frequency of application of said beliefs across time should be related to actual success.
Joshualbatross
A very logical hypothesis.
I'm so glad we have competent, courageous people like Dr. Peterson and Dr. Haidt who stands up for the truth. It could have been completely the case that we did not have these people, and millions would have fell victims to ideological poisoning, living in nihilism, self destruction, resentment, anxiety, and depression, making enemies of everyone in the world including loved ones, and more. An Asian saying goes "Troubling time births heroes", and it was of utmost delight to see two in the same room, discussing important contemporary problems.
2022. More valid and truer than ever. I wish if I shared this on social media, all of my friends would watch.
In regards to the Nordic countries when it comes to this phenomenon, I've been starting to pay a little bit of attention here in Norway, and while I'm not in academia (considering studying 3D design and animation at uni later next year) I do have a sister taking gender studies at the most prominent university in the city of Bergen (straight up on the front page they lay out that they're teaching intersectionality, queer theory, Feminist Epistemology, Patriarchy theory etc etc.).
Our media is pretty much pushing the "progressive" narrative, there's a lot of distrust and demonization of men, we clearly operate under a lot of Feminist axioms.
The scariest thing I encountered so far however, was when reading up on the manifesto of the biggest political party here in Norway during the recent election (of which they and other left-leaning parties almost won) where they wanted to implement some changes to how we deal with discrimination. The first part states that there should be penalties for discrimination (kind of vague about what they were) but that they wanted to not just focus on "overt discrimination" but also "negligence", essentially meaning that they wanted you to be penalized for upsetting/"discriminating" someone by accident. In other words, you didn't have to - intend - to discriminate.
I actually managed to talk to the co-leader of said political party in the days before the election, asking her what their justification for this was, and she confirmed that they were targeting "unconscious discrimination".
Having heard your argument against unconscious bias testing/training in the past, I was rather horrified. Elated that they didn't win, but horrified that the largest political party in this country is becoming - that - authoritarian.
That and practically every political party champions "equity" under the name of gender equality, most of them proposing - further - quotas (we already have them in place).
Pardon if I'm a little unclear, I was trying to translate that section of the manifesto from memory.
Robin Barlett: You're describing the institution of Thought Police!
Oh, and your sister is absolutely wasting her money and harming society by choosing gender studies, which is misguided ideology masquerading as science.
It's a shame, because I think there's a lot to be learned about the spectrum of humanity. It's just utterly stupid when you go from this important area of bio research to making it a crime when you use the wrong pronoun with somebody.
Harry Mills, I have been thinking about this (and it's someting JBP talked about in another video, can't remember which one, there are som many good ones!) and i think that it could actually be good to get in the game and debate the issues right upfront. To take the courses whenever possible. We can't leave Universities bare of diversity, hoping that things will end up right. I would rather argue for everyone to take these courses if possible, in order to learn about it, debate and contribute to a better discourse. A good, well informed dialogue can destroy most uninformed idiots.
Eugene Taggard I currently attend college in Canada and am in the Social Sciences and humanities. I've taken two SJW-heavy courses and find that the main problem with pushing back against my SJW professors was that the assignments and tests are already spun in a way that you must answer according to what is "right." For example, the field of anthropology was defined to me as a field that is necessarily ideological in its pursuit of knowledge. I countered this with the claim that science cannot have an ideological substructure to support itself on. I subsequently "won" the argument in front of the class. Unfortunately, the test question that defined the study of anthropology remained the same.
I dropped the course.
+spyguythesamurai Good on you.
I’ve been waiting for this one! Thank you so much Dr!
If anybody else wonders what the beautiful intro music is:
Brandenburg Concerto No.3 in G Allegro
By Johann Sebastian Bach
Julian I s
Time for a catch up/update interview with Dr. Haidt. Great discussion!
Haidt doesn't get the credit he deserves in my opinion. Not enough limelight
He surely does, just not on RUclips.
He gets enough. I don't think he is really seeking it.
Agreed
I agree. I actually heard about him though Karen Straughn (sp). I like him as he's actually doing something about something about these issues.
I am fairly sure Haidth has had a significantly bigger impact than Peterson.
Just look at his books, he was the key note speaker at the American psychological conference. This in a group where 98% is left.
Jonathan Haidt is so interesting to listen to!
This world needs more JP’s I believe if we all adopt a few of his teachings and pass them on we can achieve that goal. Happy New Year to all.
This conversation is amazing; such things motivate me to work on new content. Thank you J&J.
The “Metaphor of immune system” was really WOW 😮, this part 57:48 - 1:08:15 is brilliantly explained, from “disease attacking, to the cure” stage of how to address what’s going on at campuses and culture today
This was probably the 90 minutes I watched most worth my time in the last year or so.
Ten more hours of this, please!
Peterson is so intellectually stimulated during this conversation and you can tell he's so intrigued. It's great to see him talking to someone of a similar intellectual stature.
Peterson's always best with/against someone else in a psychological field.
I hope that "Chicago-type" is going to become a regular way to describe an universiry
There has been the Chicago Style Manual for a long time (for academic writing). But more to your point, U of Chicago is in a tough hood and I'm glad to know of their continued "hard ass" approach to defining what is true academics vs. what is fluff, p.c., or whatever.
This was really interesting. I felt a few things clicked for me in this conversation.
Tom Meakin me too
This was soooooo satisfying to view and take in. Thank you both
I am watching this video in March of 2023. Things have only gotten worse in five years since this was posted. There needs to be an update to this video! What is the current situation now, five years later? It's not looking good.