When do you think we’ll start seeing fast charging batteries like these in the market? And if you're interested in an Ecoflow Delta Max, you can buy one directly from Ecoflow: ecoflow.com?aff=195 or through Amazon: amzn.to/37PYVaL. If you liked this video, be sure to also check out, "How This Plant Could Replace Concrete." ruclips.net/video/mx7g79Jh66k/видео.html
People that ask that question don't comprehend the idea of charging vs. gas. They just don't know how leaving from home with a full tank in the morning feels like. All they know is driving to the gas station in the morning.
In China BEVs can already be manufactured for less cost than ICEV. So either their battery packs have already hit that magical number in China (I'm sure there was some no. it had to hit), or the manufacturing process itself has gotten better (very likely), considering you don't have a big hunk of engine and transmission. I think the manufacturing process had as much to do with getting costs down, along with all the investment into new plants, as did the cost of battery packs. And then you have Tesla's structural battery pack which should make manufacturing even more simple. On top of that they use the tabless 4680 battery and THAT battery can also charge pretty quickly. It's not 5 - 10 minutes, but I think it gets you up and going in less time than it takes to stop and eat, stretch and use the restroom. I forget the data on it. But being tabless means that charge is going through the entire jellyroll from top to bottom at the same time, and not having to work from the tab, and then spread out across the length of the jellyroll, which is what takes so long. So Tesla's 4680 WILL speed up charging. Don't remember if you've done a video on this one or not. Oh, and the charger is meaningless without the batteries that can actually pull in that much energy at once. This material I assume will help, but frankly with Tesla re-engineering the typical Li-Ion battery the way they did and are now starting to get it into vehicles this year (they started already), it's already a big jump in heat reduction, charge time reduction, manufacturing cost, weight reduction, I mean it's a big change already. So I don't know how much Tesla could benefit from this. I'm sure the typical Li-Ion battery that has tabs could benefit from it. In fact when I looked at this battery, Tesla's seems superior. This has a wide tab, but it doesn't cover the length of the whole roll, even though this isn't really rolled up. Tesla's makes cuts out of the top and bottom metal conductor to where they fold down and sit correctly when rolled up and pressed down to fit into the cylinder of the 4680. Basically the tab is the ENTIRE length of the battery. So if I were going to say anything about this tech, it's similar to what BYD uses or CATL uses already, but not as good as what Tesla has with the 4680.
Range anxiety has more to do with fast charging availability instead of the EV's range. In other words if every exit on the interstate/highway had DC fast chargers then drivers wouldn't be worried about running out of charge because hey could always jus pull over at the next exit to charge. That does not mean we do not need sufficient range in EVs. I'm just addressing the anxiety cause by availability of charging which is incorrectly called range anxiety.
Yeah every time I hear the term "range anxiety" I'm like, no that's not why I don't buy one... I would gladly buy an electric car even now, both if I could afford one and if I had space for several cars. And then there's if I wanted to bother wasting money on insurance, plates and registration for 2 cars since I'm keeping my gas powered car for any and all long distance trips. I'm not driving from Montreal to Toronto or New Hampshire in an electric car when I'm at the primitive mercy of the current electric grid/charging station infrastructure.
@@ericmann1781 With a Tesla the infrastructure is surprisingly good. For instance Montreal to Toronto has 2 superchargers along the route, with a 3rd outside Montreal and you only need to stop at once of them. Montreal to New Hampshire again, just 1 short stop in Berlin VT. With a couple of adapters you can also charge at electrify america, or any state or national park with RV plugs. A nice thing about Tesla superchargers is you just shove the plug in an go. No need for an app, no need to swipe a credit card or enter your zip code, no noisy ads playing.
There is something along the line of one public charger station every 60 miles on average in Illinois, like you mentioned it will be a lot less of an anxiety if there was one charging station every 2-5 miles
What is stopping me from going electric right now is the price. A local dealer, for instance, wants $12,000 over MSRP for the electric Hyundai on his lot and I've heard similar stories from around the country. Even without that markup, all new cars are just far out of most people's comfort zone at this point, as the medium (or maybe it was average) price of a new car, electric or not, was reported by Consumer Reports to be $46,000. Until prices come down, most people simply cannot afford to trade up to a new electric car, regardless of how good the range or how fast the charge time.
Where I live, people overwhelmingly own pickups and suvs that cost way over 50k. I sat in a 120K ford pickup at the dealership, 120K for a gas guzzling truck that will never ever be used as a truck. It’s not just price or range anxiety. It’s politics, obesity, ignorance and refusal to accept change.
@@buckbenelli8 Same here Im in TN and half the vehicles are trucks ( ok not literally lol but close ). And on top of that I live in a country town that has the big jacked up trucks that never go off road Loooooool!
I'm looking for a used (gasoline) car and prices right now are INSANE. 2016 cars with 30,000+ miles, selling for more than they cost when they were Brand New!!! With the extreme shortage of new cars, the price of used cars has skyrocketed.
@@buckbenelli8 Ford has substantially cheaper trims. An F150 XL trim can be had for 43K with the 7.2kW PowerBoost hybrid option. People go crazy with the options for what used to be a working vehicle. If the vehicle is going to serve multiple purposes, then yes, consumers will add content and jack up the price. As for dealers charging over MSRP, there's a spreadsheet online that list dealers charging MSRP for Hyundai and Kia EVs.
Sticker prices are still considerably higher for EVs, but I'm pretty sure that at least for new cars, total cost of ownership is significantly lower for EVs than fossil-fueled cars. Time to break even will vary, fuel prices and especially electricity prices vary a lot geographically. But running costs and maintenance and second hand value should all favor EVs. At least that is what has happened in Norway, which is a few years ahead of Europe and especially the laggard USA in this respect. Over 90% of new cars sold are now electric - that does NOT include plugin hybrids, and of course not plain old hybrids - and anyone considering a fossil car has to worry about second hand value collapsing as there's a realistic risk they'll face use restrictions such as not being allowed into city centers.
I drove a leased EV for 3 years, and generally loved it. The biggest problem for me was my location: I live in the northern US. In the winter, my EV would get at most just half of its stated range. And if I used the heater, it would cut that in half again. In warm weather, though, I rarely had range anxiety since I was just taking the car to work and back. But I'm glad that there's been so much EV tech development in the last few years.
@@robh467 lol nobody has achieved superconductivity in normal outside temperature ranges. Have you heard about people who have no idea what they're talking about? You're nothing more than a glorified speaker spewing science-fiction.
A modern EV needs a good heat pump for better efficiency. So if you have a 500 km range during summer, you shouldn't get less than 350 km during winter, even with the heater on.
That's why I like PHEV's. If it gets under freezing the motor will idle to warm up the batteries. It also helps your EV range when using the heater if the motor is idling. Plus if you live in an area where it freezes AND you can't always leave it plugged in the car is kinda pointless. That's where most of the winter range problems come into effect.
i live in Mumbai, India. I have noticed an increase in number of ev's on road. whenever i get down even for a quick stroll i atleast see 2 ev's on the road. This is making me, very excited for ev's future in India.
I'm Brazilian and I don't know how to feel about it... Just like lithium largest reserves are causing tensions in Bolivia, Brazil is the largest reserve in Niobium and the next EV industry target. It's an opportunity but also a liability... and seeing the current government "legalize" mining in indigenous land makes me really sad. The state's former public company responsible for mining was privatized decades ago. The profits were privatized and do not go to public good. The mining company also had been involved in many environment disasters, most recently a damn holding heavy metal waste broke and destroyed the city of Brumadinho killing hundreds of people in the process while also contaminating the environment. People are still fighting to get compensations in the justice system. Now seeing this video I don't know how to call it... hope? despair? It's weird... They say niobium is strategic to the country, but I don't see my life directly changing because of it... The niobium (to be) oligarchs are trying to push the package of it being good for the economy, (because they might hold a monopoly). But knowing my country, the most probable future is privatized greed screwing the environment and rain forest and the public paying the price. They might possibly get the land of the "índios" along the way. It would be good if we were able to produce everything from universal materials like carbon, sodium, magnesium. A reliance on rare resources concentrated geographically will always lead to conflict. (internal and maybe even external)
Thanks for pointing that out Marcelo. Progress without regard for environment is very dangerous. It's important that we, Brazilians, inform the world public opinion about all the corruption involving mineral extraction throughout amazon and other brazilian biomes.
At the very least? The people of Brazil need to stand up to the government and make sure money made from destroying Brazil? goes to the people of Brazil instead of their own pockets.
This is exactly what is wrong with our society when it comes to consumption. We simply do not care about what the impacts are to others, only to ourselves. We see this daily in all the people looking for the "lowest price" for ANYTHING, even if it means spending 5% more to literally make a 500% difference on living conditions or environmental impact. Sadly, the reality is that this will not change. Greed is not just with the oligarchs. It is in everyone, and is a conscious choice made many times per day.
@@dctrjekyll3573 So this dctrjekyll account was created one week ago, and all his posts are ones taking a dump on Matt. Dude, dial it down. Did Matt's dog take a dump on your yard? Or perhaps you work for big oil, and you cr#p on any RUclipsr who promotes EV technology.
@@phantomreaver85 lifepo4 are great and I wish they were used in more applications. Unfortunately they are significantly heavier. When factoring in weight they only have around 60% of the capacity per unit weight of li-ion. In terms of heat, they still generate alot of heat while charging, so the fast charge heat problem isn't solved with lifepo4, they are just drastically safer; don't overheat, catch fire, or explode.
@@peterwein1716 not to mention they're also slightly lower voltage at 3.2v/cell nominal, compared to more traditional li-ion at 3.6-3.7v/cell nominal, so a comparable high-voltage pack would need more lifepo4 cells to get the same voltage, in addition to having lower wh/kg. I'm with you on wanting to see more use of lifepo4 cells in things where it makes sense though, since they do have better durability and aren't nearly as finicky about things like over/under charging or temperature.
Getting charging times down could really change the sustainability of EV in terms of battery materials needed. If a car only takes 10 minutes to charge back up, and charging infrastructure keeps growing, a lot of people are gonna be fine with 150-200 mile range instead of 300+
That is the big problem, here in the UK it is calculated that we going to need 400.000 charging stations and apparently we have only 3.000 of them (end of year 2022) the second issue is that the power grid is already on the last leg with so much power demand.
Ha, it must be said that I skip over most of those promos, but I'm pretty sure I looked at every one of the products. I hadn't seen such a modularized solution before.
I charged my Volt overnight at 110V/12A, standard plug, standard outlet. That was enough for local driving. Fast charging is really only needed for long distance drives. A 20 minute break every few hours is no bad thing. Professional drivers have to take breaks, by law.
Yea. A lot of people focus on the time they spend at a DCFC just a couple times a year during a long road trip while ignoring all the time they save on a weekly basis because they never have to visit a gas station.
Had both a Volt and Caddi ELR. Great cars. Could drive on electric for weeks at a time and still hit the road and head to LA without worrying about it (500 miles). Had 220 in Garage and they charged from empty in 4 hours or so. Plug In Hybrids are perfect for dealing with range concerns.
@@chrisbrown1462 true. Plug in hybrids really seem like a no brainer for anyone who has (or can get) a plug where ever they park their car every night.
@@chrisbrown1462 But hybrids lose out on some of the main benefits of Battery EVs. The lack of maintenance, and the fun of driving such a peppy car. I'm not even talking about the stupid fast 0-60mph times. Even my Nissan Leaf is peppier than an ICE car. Full Torque from 0mph. No latency while the gas engine spools up, and goes through the torque converter and then the transmission. No Gas Engine, No Torque Convert, and No Transmission. Win-Win-Win.
@@guygordon2780 It depends on the hybrid system - the series hybrid (Volt, ELR etc) is basically an EV with a sustainer engine. You run on EV until you can't anymore.
I'll point out that Lithium Titanate chemistry reached similar charge rates over a decade ago, proven by Aerovironment and Altairnano with a 5 minute charge. Cost and energy density were the limiting factors back then, both have been improved upon with the Toshiba Scib version of LiTi. I think they may also be working on a Niobium version as well.
I’ve been saying it for years: swappable battery packs. Self-drives onto mechanics pit, technician drops low battery and puts in new battery pack, car’s good to go, plug up low battery. Faster than a gas station stop and eliminates the aging of batteries by using different batteries constantly with ineffective, aged units simply being taken out of circulation.
While a good idea. That would require standardization in layout that won’t happen. The other is making enough for all the cars and enough for each station. Something like that would take easily a decade if enough manufacturing could be set aside.
Focusing on charge times is probably the least important aspect of BEV uptake. 350KW is an ungodly amount of power the average house is unlikely to even hit 10KW normally. I have an 80 amp 240V connection to the grid so 19.2KW. Most medium factories here usually have a 100-200 amp 240V 3 phase service so 144KW at the most. Having such high peak power draw would require way more grid infastructure than limiting most chargers to around 100KW which is still a shitload. Realistically I'd want a 5-10KW charger at home and better energy density per weight.
in fact, am i the only one who feel uneasy putting that much electrical power in the hands of common people? like, half a megawatt, handled by people with no training! if this stuff gets damaged or something happens, you won't survive the event... i understand there will be security measures and stuff, but still these chargers would need to be adequately maintained, updated, repaired, and not tampered with
So, I'll contradict this a little bit. If the average household has an electric dryer and electric range, those two appliances alone will just about hit 10kW. Add in a fridge/ freezer combo, plus freezer in the garage, TVs, computers, hot water heater (not even including tankless which are commonly over 25kW), washer, etc., and you'll see peaks well over 20-25kW. Now, that being said, just because there would be stations you can go to where you can fast charge your vehicle on the go, doesn't mean that you need to have that level of capability at your house, as you typically won't be constrained by time. If you can use a 12kW charger (50A 240V), you could still charge a Ford Lightning with it's 131kW extended range battery in ~13 hours, so you can realistically still use a reasonable sized charger at home, while also allowing for quick charging on the go. Without quick charging, this tech will never truly take off. Just my two cents.
@@bradendude1414 It might be different in the US, but here in Europe 16, 20 and 24 is the 3 typical ranges of amperage for a private home, that is about 11kW, 14KW and 17kW. I currently have 11kW, that works fine as long as i don´t use the electric heat. Its cost extra money every month to have more power. What have started to become more and more common is that there is breakers that break a other line when its over stressed. So for example when the range is at full power the dryer, washer and washing machine is automatically turned of. Most modern equipment is made to handle this. For instance at least my washer, if i pull the plugg, and put it back in, it just keeps washing where it was when i pulled the plug. Of casuse this can be done on the charger as well, but the charger would probobly be last in line, and if the charger is 3-phase, it get complicated
The main problem here in Germany (mostly in big cities) is the space. Everything is so densely built, that many don't even get a parking spot near their own house. And we have so little charging stations around the city. In my area there is only one charging station that's around 1km away... So around a few hundred people per charging station. The day only has 24 hours. So realistically most charge around in the early morning before work or in the evening. So it's one charging station for hundreds of potential EVs divided over only a few hours each day.... Furthermore our energy infrastructure can't really handle more charging stations that would definitely be needed. It had to be all redone properly, but that would be wayyy too expensive
Yea, the infrastructure definitely needs help. I think a big improvement will be workplaces putting 110V plugs at each of their parking spots. That’ll at least cut out the need for a charge to get to and from work every day.
I'm done with electric cars, I went back to gasoline because of all hassle associated with electric cars and trucks ! No more for me , I've learned my lesson and my " ELECTRIC CAR ANXIETY SYNDROME IS GONE " ... Happy days are here again !!
If this video proves anything at all, it's that battery tech has so many areas that they can just keep improving on :) Fantastic tech, and very promising for a lot of industries.
Yea, it’s really crazy to see how many different improvements are currently being worked on. Really makes me wonder what types of vehicles will be hitting the market in 10+ years.
If I earned 1€ every time there's a breakthrough that will allow your car to charge in minutes... I would be a thousandier by now. By the way my EV charges in 18 minutes on a 350kW point. It's quicker than I can order and consume my hotdog.
I've been shouting from the roof tops that the range of an EV is not as important as the charging speed. Once you get above 300 miles of range, that's enough for 99% of users. But when it takes 30 minutes at a fast charger and up to 10 hours on a slow charger to refill that battery, that's when people freak out and want something with 600 miles. They don't really want 600 miles, they want faster charging.
In your critique of batteries did you mention a lot of the stops at gas stations are eliminated due to the slow overnight charging at one's house. So you may be waiting an extra 15 min at the gas station to charge but one is not having to even stop at a gas station 2 to 3 times a month. This seems to actually be less waiting time overall at gas stations. But more importantly less distractions and waiting and prior planning of time.
The "charging takes too long" argument is 95% overcome by explaining that you just charge while you sleep. It's only an issue if you travel long distances regularly.
Exactly. When people find out that I live in an apartment with no charging, but own an EV they often ask how it works. Then I explain to them that there’s three different chargers within .5 miles so I just setup the car Saturday morning and then walk home and live my life while it charges. Really not a problem and itll just get easier as the infrastructure is more built out.
Unless you travel long distance. And before you say average use of an EV is short distance, let it be known that in some countries, cars aren't cheap and people do travel long distances from time to time. So when cars are expensive, you have to consider this in the equation, which makes electric cars a no go.
My issue with electric vehicles is that they’re so freaking heavy. Makes 2020’s combustion-powered cars look light as a feather in comparison, and those already tend to be way heavier than cars from a few decades before.
Great to see such varied R&D progress on battery technology. But having driven a Tesla for the last six years don’t let the premise of range anxiety put you off buying. On the occasional long journeys in my experience the car is ready to go way before we have have been to the toilet then bought and finished food. Even without food, the break from driving with a little stroll, message catch up and rest changes the journey experience. Really loving my EV, so many things are way better and cheaper that the range trade off over ICE is nothing, just a small habit adjustment . Having a EV must be like how people felt getting the model T Ford after having a horse.
Half niobium and half silicon, switch the charge rate for each type, then get benefits of both fast charge followed by a deep charge. Also protects the silicon batteries more as they can put their charge through buffered by the niobium cells and promote more overall power storage than just niobium cells alone.
I always looked at the charging of an EV as a major advantage. Imagine every morning getting up and some one has topped off your gas tank of your car. AND for pennies on the dollar. Night time rates are lower for power. If you have solar on the house even better for the net gain. Only time I ever drove more than 200 miles in one day is when I was on a road trip to another state. What is the hurry then? Destination / Journey cliche'.
If a car's lifetime increases then it will make an EV much more interesting for customers, even if the total range lowers. It would be nice if companies would allow their customers to choose for themselves which type of battery to use
It's not just about range. It's about sufficient charging stations to pull in when I need to and charge while grabbing a bit to eat. It's going to take a lot more than a single charging station at each intersection to handle the real load when the number of EVs really increases.
Due to my particular circumstances* I didn't need a lot of range, so I took a chance on a used EV as my first (and current) electric car, a 2016 Kia Soul EV+, and have not regretted it. As new it gets about 93 miles of EPA range (just over 100 miles if you drive nice), but since it's used it gets about 85 miles on mixed driving. Anyway, within one week of actually using it to go to and from work, etc that range anxiety disappeared. I ran out of battery only one time and that was because a charger failed and I was not able to get the charge I needed to get to the next charger (missed it by less than 1 mile). * I work only about 10 miles from where I live and the maximum I drive is no more than about 50 miles in one stretch.
Awesome. I also got a used EV (bolt) and have a similar situation. The first time I do a new route I’ll feel fairly anxious, but after that there’s no more range anxiety. It’ll definitely just disappear as more people experience owning and EV and as the infrastructure is built out.
@@SaveMoneySavethePlanet Before I got the car I did a TON of research, looking for the used EV that would be the right one _for me_ as each person's needs are unique. I was worried that there were no DC charging stations near me and that 94 miles of range would get me in trouble. But, first I found out that there actually _were_ DC fast charging stations near my house but, unlike gas stations, they are usually hidden in out-of-the-way locations since not a lot of infrastructure is even needed to build them. In fact I found, to my surprise, that there were at least a dozen of them within 5 miles of my house that I never knew about even though I've lived here for about 20 years! Second, I realized that _most_ of the time I'd be driving less than 50 miles per day (like most people!) and in fact usually drive half that distance on a daily basis. And to add a third point, the vast majority of the time I actually charge at home which is SUPER convenient and is one of the top reasons I will never go back to gas. I have a garage so it is the best case scenario for that and I can understand how the charging process will be a bit different for people who live in an apartment or a house without a garage, etc. _Those_ are the edge-cases we need to accommodate to get everyone into an EV. Really fast DC charging will help get us there.
With the current EV's most people's normal driving habits can be handled by a home charger. The "range anxiety" comes from longer trips where you need to recharge outside of the home environment. In many places outside of major metro area, there is not the infrastructure unless you drive a Tesla. Not everyone driving electric has a Tesla and it gets old saying the infrastructure is there but then they say they have a tesla. For this to work, it has to work for all manufacturers. Some, like me, can afford an ICE and an electric but again for this to work, it can't be having both. It has to be having electric only and the infrastructure is not there yet.
@@stboden True. I think for the average person to accept EVs, there needs to be an EV DC fast charging station at least every 30-50 miles and the lowest EV range should be no less than about 200-250 miles. If EVs can charge in under 10-15 minutes then range is not as important (as long as the charging infrastructure is there). One of the smartest things Tesla did from the beginning was realize that quick charging stations would be extremely important so they really emphasized building out their Superchargers starting from day one (well, after the Roadster anyways). Others are still trying to catch up to this day.
It's amazing to see all this battery technology moving foward with new news every week of some innovation which is being made. In 5-10 years we will have amazing battery tech
"Yup, in 10 years all vehicles will be able to be charged at home in five minutes for five dollars and go 500 miles." Ah, isn't it nostalgic! I remember the 1970's well!
Here is my take on range anxiety is where its road trips, if your on a road trip and the new cells have a bms in the car and take a "standard" plug having a 20min recharge is fine, its when you wake up in the morning and you realize you forgot to plug in or you live in a apartment building is where people want a charge to full in less then 10min and they dont want or cant wait. But if you can cram 50-60 miles of power in in that 5min range thats more to reasonable for getting you 30miles to work and to a charger if you cant have one at home
I work in the trades, often for wealthier people. In this case, they are the first adopters for electric cars. Generally they commute, and then charge their car at night, where the amount of time it takes to charge doesn't matter at all, and so these stresses on the batteries are relatively moot. This isn't the use case for everyone mind you, and fast charging does need to be solved, but I myself would love an EV, and do admit 99% of the time, it would end up charging slowly over the evening. If I have to do a fast charger on a highway for a journey, well... one or two fast charges aren't going to mess up the cells that badly. It's a degenerative problem, not a direct damage problem.
The problem with EV range is I think more of an issue with a lack of infrastructure. There’s a decent amount around high density population but beyond an hour or so from those centers the amount drops off substantially, and there’s plenty of interstate routes that lack them. I’m confident an EV is a great vehicle when traveling up or down either coast but outside of that, I wouldn’t want to have an EV.
Yeah we are nowhere near the place we need to be to properly replace Gas. That being said, it really is dependent on certain conditions from person to person.
…yet. With five companies building roadside facilities and numerous home charger manufacturers, give it a couple of years and people will choose the $12 fill up over $60 gasoline.
Yes that's true, yet, this argument is mainly relevant when doing long distances, most people don't drive over 40 miles a day, basically their commute and daily activities. This could be recharged overnight for most users. Of course AC type 2 and getting an evse is what most will need if they can have one. I understand everyone have different situations, just saying most people have the infracstructure for it already.
Whilst range anxiety is less of a concern with Tesla's, for non Tesla's it's crappy infrastructure anxiety - ie will they be working when I arrive? Which apps or pre registered fobs do I need etc
I’ve had my occaisional issues with CCS DCFC, but no show stoppers so far. I am looking forward to when Tesla makes their chargers CCS compatible though simply because it’ll be a huge boost to our charging infrastructure for all new EV owners.
I like the idea of being able to charge cars quickly. However I think we should change that. Let's enjoy the 30minutes+ it takes to charge our cars. Visit the area you're in, walk into a nearby shop, enjoy part of a trail, while it charges. If the car gets 300+ miles on a charge, don't need to charge too often either.
Even when I couldn’t charge at home I could charge everywhere else: work, gym, store, library, park,… I could still recharge every day. Recharging at home is just the best option not the only option.
It’s like when you watch home buying shows on HGTV and the person keeps turning down houses because they “can’t host Thanksgiving dinner in the living room.”
@@H0kies95 true, but that is still an infrastructure issue rather than a battery one. I don’t have charging in my apartment, but I still own an EV because the infrastructure enables me to. I get a wall plug 3/5 days at work and then I go hook up to an L2 on Saturdays for several hours in order to get back up to 100%.
@@H0kies95 You don't have power in your home? Then maybe that should be a priority over wondering what type of car to buy. Don't need a garage to charge a car in, it is just the most convenient.
Thank you for this video. I did a little (very little) research on line to determine where most niobium is mined. I found out that Brazil and Canada are the main producers (with Brazil producing 12 times as much material from the source minerals, Columbite--nearly 89,000 tons, versus just under 7,000 tons in Canada). The element is also used in other critical technologies, so prices may start to rise quickly if it does prove to be the "magic bullet" that it would seem to be for the development of fast-charging batteries.
Most of the technology of niobium products comes from Brazil, we have plenty of the material here and we are developing aplications for it with science so we can benefit from It. We are already going to test a niobium battery run bus in Rio de Janeiro soon with CBMM and Volkswagen Brasil technology, but instead the video talks about an irrelevant small ass US company, as always portraying themselfs as the technology owners.
As an EV driver, I can see an enormous benefit to adopting battery chemistry capable of significant faster charging rates even before a significantly faster Rapid/Ultra Charger infrastructure is rolled out. The frustrating aspect of Rapid DC Charging with current lithium-based tech is the drastic reduction in charge rate as the current tech cells charge session progresses and internal resistance and tempiture rises. If cell tech allows for significantly theoretical rates than current battery tech and infrastructure can deliver, then when an EV is hooked up to a 150 kW or 350 kW DC Charger maybe it could maintain that rate throughout the Rapid charge session throughput at public charging sites!
Been driving an ioniq for the last 10 months. Charging over a regular plug takes very long , but now that in moved in to a house with a car charger installed it takes about 4-5 hours for a full charge. It’s much easier to deal with it.
As someone who is about to start electrical engineering in a few months, your videos are very exciting and motivational! It really makes me want to work on all of the cool topics you talk about
Honestly this tech can charge faster with our current infrastructure. It would prolong the charge curve to be more flat over time instead of taper off like current generation batteries in Evs
I can't speak for other countries but the biggest issue with chargers in the UK isn't the speed, it's availability and crucially reliability. It's very common to arrive at a DC charger to find it faulty or in use. This brings in uncertainty to long journeys which then causes range anxiety. Sure it would be awesome if we could recharge in a few mins, but current speeds are fine so long as the chargers are available and working. Obviously I exclude Tesla from this as their charging network is extremely reliable.
A lot of discussion here about the chargers not being powerful enough. I have over 20 x 350kW chargers within 10 miles of my house, but I think the maximum any car can take is 270kW, very briefly. A better battery will have a better charging curve, it will stay charging faster for longer. I’m disappointed that people are still talking peak charging speed, rather than time based charging volume.
Great video. Do you also keep a running comparison of all the battery tech that's out there, so that we can gauge where this tech is compared to silicon, graphene, and other tech developments? It seems they are all neck and neck - leapfrogging with differences that include: maturity (concept/prototype/limited production/mass production), energy density, charging time, battery recharge life, etc.
This is a bit of a side issue but as I've been looking into putting solar panels on my house, I realize I kind of fall into the area where solar panels may not be feasible for me. However, as I am also looking to replace my oil furnace with a new heat pump system (that works down to -15 degrees) and my next car purchase will be electric, it's dawning on me that solar collectors may just well become very feasible for the average homeowner and that growth of the solar industry may be even greater when everyone starts to realize this.
solar is very climate dependent as to feasibility. Locally, the average we'd have to worry about is 3 days of consecutive cloud cover, with 320+ average sunny days a year. At near 30 deg latitude, we get good sun exposure even in winter. One to two days a year needing to clear snow cover from panels in a bad year. Go north to 40 deg latitude and you have much poorer solar conditions for a large portion of the year. (ignoring cloud cover and snow covering panels effects) Seattle, WA would be a dismal failure for solar power at 47 deg latitude and with a high percentage of cloudy days. While "on average" solar might become feasible... there are areas where it may never be the best choice in renewable energy.
I like the idea of collecting and producing your own energy and I like this idea. It just makes me wonder if solar panels can really supply the amount of electricity I need if I were to have an electric car.
@@c1a2t3a4p5i6l7l8a9r depends on where you are. And how much you want to spend on panels. We are approaching $1.00 a watt panel rating price. Appx 10 watts a sq ft is easy. 20 watts a sq ft is more expensive. Watts needed depends on your car and distance to be driven and driving habits. There are ways to calculate all of this.
@@c1a2t3a4p5i6l7l8a9r Yes, I wonder about that too. I wish panels were at least 30% efficient vs the current 22% average. If they were 30% efficient, I'd have no hesitation in buying them.
@@fhuber7507 Yes. Climate-wise, I'm in a good area for getting plenty of sun. The problem for me is that I can't justify paying a lot for a system when my electric bill averages only around $75 a month. The payoff period would take a long time. However, again, I slowly came to realize that if I add a new heat pump and an EV or two, that changes the payoff equation quite a bit.
We don't need ultra-fast charging at every charging point. When charging in a city, you're never gonna wait next to the charger, spinning your thumbs. Modern (2020+) EVs don't run out of range without going on highways/expressways. That's where we need ultra-fast charging.
EV’s have no real range issues if you have the ability to charge them at home, Issues only become apparent if your driving long distance staying at a hotel or maybe going to a cabin/property. Unless you’re going to be doing those things the range of an EV will never really become a problem as long as it gets you through an ordinary day such as going to work going home maybe leaving to grab something to eat then you go home and charge it at home. Another issue is if you don’t have a way to charge it at home because that leaves you with having to plan around charging stations.
I feel like my BMW I3 2015 battery didn't change much since i got it 3.5 years ago. It got probably around 1200 battery cycles total. I know there's a buffer over the 100% but i can still drive the same range as when i got it so it's doing great!
Is that battery liquid cooled? I know a huge part of why I went with the Bolt EV was because the data is coming out that liquid cooled batteries last for more cycles than passively cooled ones like in the leaf. The buffer of course helps as well like you mentioned.
@@SaveMoneySavethePlanet i'm not sure but i think i read somewhere it had some kind of oil or something for the cooling. I also wonder how low temperatures like -15c impacts the battery since it's a natural cooling a good part of the year.
@@Dindonmasker no idea, but I’m assuming the fact that so many Leaf cars (which have passive cooling) end up with atrocious range after a couple of years means that it doesn’t have enough of an effect.
Hello Matt great video! Have you done any videos on the benefits LFP batteries and sodium batteries and how they could drive battery costs down even faster? Chinese EV companies rely on LFP batteries which make EVs on par in price with ICE vehicles and have lead EV purchases to take off in China.
LFP batteries are only driving costs down for the vehicles that offer them. Nobody is using sodium batteries in EVs yet. So it's only speculation now. It may not be a good idea for many markets anyway...potentially good in very heavy traffic areas where people don't need range and power. They have low energy density and bad cycle life
If you take into account the 80% upper limit to maintain lifespan, of Li Ion batteries, heat stability, longevity of LFP, LFP batteries are perfect for vehicles.
The biggest problem with this problem is it is more of a perception problem than a real world problem. I had huge range anxiety before I bought my Tesla. I specifically bought the LR model 3 because I wanted to have as much range as possible. After actually owning one though, I have less concern over my EV than I ever did with an ICE car. I never even bother looking at the range. And I just plug it into the wall when I get home. In a standard 110 outlet. It just charges overnight and usually charges MORE than I actually use during the day. IMHO for 90% of people 90% of the time existing EVs have plenty or range and charge plenty fast enough. The only time it really becomes an issue is when going on a trip but those aren't things we do every day and when that happens I know there will always be superchargers I can hit up and when on a roadtrip taking a longer break to charge is actually a good thing IMHO. The other thing I really point out when people ask me the "how long does it to to charge though?" is they should stop thinking about how most people treat gas where you wait until its nearly empty and then fill it up. If you look at how long it takes to charge from 0 to 100% yeah it takes a while. But to go from 20% to 60%? Not long at all at a super charger.
Wow, great news. This still doesn’t raise EV collision environmental damage from damaged battery elements spilling. It also raises the fire fighters response (Hazmat Units) are required to handle EV accidents. Costs are extremely high per response. More EV’s require more fire fighting training. Todays small city/county fire departments don’t have Hazmat units.
So I have the Ford Mach-e GT and I have recently moved and I have had to make 3 trips around 1100 mile each trip. the first trip i did have some range anxiety, but for the last two trips I had no worries at all, I think that was mainly do to the fact that there was a DC fast charger every 90-150 miles so I new that if I charged to 80% I wouldn't have any problems. To me I don't mind the wait it was anywhere from 15 mins to 45 mins depending on rather I skipped a charger or not. during that time I would take a nap, walk my dog, eat, etc. and then I would be ready to drive again, the drive actually seemed less stressful than driving an ICE car.
This is very similar to my experience. Range anxiety when I first bought the car and first did a couple long trips…but I eventually realized that the infrastructure is way more important than the battery.
Similar experience here in my Model 3 LR; in 2018 my first trip involved a lot of pre-planning. In part, it was because here in Canada the Tesla supercharger network was still in its infancy. Nowadays, I can make trips like that with no planning whatsoever. The only time range is even in my consciousness is when the weather is exceptionally blizzardy and we are chewing up power (heating, road/wind resistance, etc). The other thing is everyone seems so concerned about these road trips, but for the vast vast majority of folks a road trip is a once/twice per year event. Most of the time, it's trips shorter than 400km, or commutes of under 100km. For that, starting every day with a "full" battery (80% for the smart folks who want to maximize their battery's health), is more than enough!
@@MichaelIreland I found so far, that if I have to use the heater it sucks up the range like crazy, but if i use the a/c set to 70-68 F degrees it doesn't effect the range as much, now that may change as it gets closer to the hotter months.
@@michaelmartin8692 yeah, the A/C in mine uses much less power than heat. If I recall correctly, mine is rated to use 150 WH per kilometre at 100km/h under normal conditions. In the summer, with A/C (even at 30C outside and full sun), it often still uses less than 140 WH/km. In the winter, it's not unusual to use up to 250 WH/km (on the exact same road/route).
One less often talked about factor in charging speed that I'd argue is the most important is overall vehicle efficiency (not charging efficiency) since the metric that really matters to EVs is miles-charged/hour, not kilowatts. If you have a more efficient vehicle then each kWh you charge gets you more range. It doesn't matter if a vehicle can charge at 500kW instead of 300kW if it's only 50% efficient at using those kWh's versus a vehicle that charges at 300kW and is 90% efficient. You can charge faster just by having more batteries to accept the charge, but that extra weight starts to hurt your vehicle efficiency very quickly. A lighter vehicle will be more efficient with its energy and can charge at a higher miles/hour even if it's charging at a lower kW. Some companies already are focusing on higher efficiency and lighter weight in their vehicles to increase "charging" speed and range, whereas others are just loading way more batteries into their vehicles to meet range targets, tanking efficiency and miles-charged rates even though they technically may charge as fast or faster when measured in kW.
but these are unrelated aspects. Vehicle efficiency, battery efficiency and charge rate are separate. If you have an efficient power train - adding a better battery will keep the efficiency while improving other aspects like charge speed. So improving both is important.
I believe vehicle efficiency has reached or almost reached it's peak. Motors are close to 100% efficient. Only thing that can improve efficiency now, relates to batteries also, and that is weight.
@@Dghervas29 its true motors are already very efficient, but that's only part of the equation. Battery weight is a factor, but you also have to consider thermal management & insulation (Tesla's heatpump and octovalve effectively recycles heat between the batteries, motors, and cabin to minimize waste heat/cool and energy consumption), aerodynamics, and the weight of the frame/body (aluminum casting could really bring down the weight, along with a structural battery pack). So far only Tesla and Jaguar have heatpumps, and only Tesla has anything like the octovalve.
@@graysonsmith7031 Overall efficiency is greatly influenced by all of these factors. Aptera is really the only company addressing all the factors in a systematic way, and they will end up 3 or 4 times more efficient in miles per watt hour than even the best Tesla. The combination of better motor efficiency, lighter weight, better body thermal insulation, and better aerodynamics all contribute to the performance.
Even if you could just maintain the 250kw charge rate you can go 20-80% in your long range model 3 in just under 12 minutes, which is about 170 miles of real world range or about 2.5 hours of highway driving.
9:40 So if the intercalation occurs without a chemical phase change (similar to a capacitor), what does that mean for the self discharge rate of battery cells using this anode? Is it also similar to the self discharge rate of capacitors? If so, that would make these batteries less desirable for EVs outside of occasional use range extenders.
@@ayoopopoola439 No, but Battery Streak should be able to. I tried to link to a Battery University explanation of self discharge rates, but it looks like it was blocked. I recommend you read that to better understand self discharge and how that could limit a battery's usefulness for EVs.
🤢🤮Dan Alpern sounds so shady🤢🤮 I lost him the moment he mentioned McKinsey for its report 🤢🤮 McKinsey has extremely low moral standard when it comes to with whom they work & produce consulting reports. Sorry, but this Battery Streak Niobia magic seems just another Nikola-type scam to me🤢🤮
5 years max before we have available batteries that can charge in minutes. I’m personally betting on Tesla Silicon, but the Niobia sounds promising as well.
Ok lets live in magic land where i can charge my car in a minute. Does our electric network support that power draw also? Right now no it would just melt down. That means all our landlines must be changed for 10x power draw. Also our power network would need some huge quick release power reserves that are not here right now. You might have a magic car but you cannot use it until all our power management/storage and production is massively owerhauled. That will not happen in 5 years. Maybe in 50 but not sooner.
@@KK-xz4rk I don't think the problem is as dire as you suggest. The vast majority of charging is still going to be done at home, overnight, when other power draws are low, using relatively modest level 2 charging. Certainly the grid needs updating, but that would be true in any case.
@@jamesowens7176 So the possibility to charge in minutes will be developed but not used? Why then car manufacturers would even develop fast charging then? Far better idea would be precharged battery packs in recharge stations. You just lift old ones out to charging and lift full ones into your car. Your stop is same length as filling with gas and it is doable with technology that we have already.
@@KK-xz4rk There are companies like Nio already doing this, but what I was getting at was that most charging isn't fast-charging anyway. The main point of the fast-charging is to enable long-distance travel for those times when folks need it. We in America tend to buy a vehicle expecting it to be useful in every scenario (why there are so many people commuting to work in a pickup - because they might need to haul something a couple times a year). So we want a car that can run around town, but we also want to take it on summer vacation, or to visit family on the holidays, or even just to for a Sunday drive in the mountains. That's the use case for fast-charging. Battery swap might fill this niche too, but I think the infrastructure for charging alone would be simpler than building a mass number of swap stations.
I stopped having so called range anxiety after owning and driving my EV, and learned in life is that you need to PLAN ahead like going on Vacation if the trip is outside of everyday driving. If I drive 100km /day and my range is 200km then I can either charge every other day or trickle charge at night when it's off peak hours, no biggy. Ease foot pedal on acceleration, let it glide when going down hill to regen is now a habit. Many drivers drive Hybrids, thats very simular but they have Gas as a backup. Hope soon everyone can enjoy driving without any worries
Hey Matt, what reason can you imagine why they simply don't do a car that you can switch the battery very quickly? you can go in a deposit, remove you empty battery and get a new one fully charged. and the empty batteries can be charged up offline in a cool environment to prevent degradation.
What makes me laugh is, it is best to take a 20 - 30 min break after driving for 2 - 3 hrs so use it for a 'drop off & refill' and stop stressing about a few minutes!
Yes, often what people think they want turns out bad for them. It seems to me that currently people want to drive 100 mph until they have an accident or fall asleep at the wheel. This is a societal problem. People want technology to solve all their problems. Dave D, your less stressed attitude will help you live longer and happier.
This became really interesting when you said increasing battery temperature from 25c to 60 c. Where I live in Australia initial start temperature in summertime would be minimum of 35c. Charging would exceed 60 c on a regular basis. Also have minimum highway runs of 150 km round trip to nearest town centre, 400 km round trip to a major population centre. ( above 50,000 people). 2 charging facilities only.
would be convenient then to have a battery that works best at 70°C. hydrogen cells might be a solution, those generate electricity in cars, for example the toyota mirai has a hydrogen fuel cell.
I have one of the slower charging EVs on the market. A Bolt. That said, 95% of its use is my commute. 120 miles a day. And I have L2 charging at home (and at work, tho that wasn't available when I bought it). And of course, the Bolt works great for that commute. I plug in when I get to work. I plug in when I get home. Lots of time saved over stopping at gas stations when I had my ICE car. That said, yes it is a slower fast charging EV. We've taken it on a few longer trips tho, and found that it doesn't bother us. The main trip we do is to visit my family down south. Which is about 300 miles one way. But it works out great for us. We start with a full charge from home of course. We stop once on the way down. That stop is about 30 minutes charging, but it's lunch time and the location has several eating options nearby. It's the same location we usually stop for food when we drive the ICE car. So it doesn't actually add any time for us on that leg of the trip. When we arrive, we usually stay at a hotel that is really close to an L2 charger. So I can charge the car while we are there. (We are going again this weekend and this time are staying at a hotel with an L2 charger). Then we leave with a full charge and hit the same spot to charge on the way home, again charging while eating. So, while it does take a fair amount longer to charge (the Bolt EV is a slow fast charging EV), it ends up taking us the same amount of time as it would if we took the ICE. Now, that is NOT the case for everyone and it wouldn't be for us in different situations. So, just like every ICE vehicle isn't right for every person in every situation (A huge vehicle wouldn't fit in my garage!!), not every EV is right for every person. If we needed to do a lot more fast charging, the Bolt wouldn't be the right car for us. That said we love it and it is perfect for us. And faster charging is available in other cars, and even faster is coming... So, all good news! (And if your situation means an EV won't work for you, that's fine too... Not all cars for all situations..)
*fist bump* for a fellow Bolt owner who loves their car! I was so nervous about so many potential issues when I bought my car, but they really haven’t come to fruition at all! Can’t wait for more people to catch on to the wave of new tech! And like you said, we have the slowest version of this tech!
Excellent response. 300million cars in USA and 140million homes. 365 daily trips Daily top up from your mini fuel ⛽ bowser. People need the numbers. 500mile range now if needed. Copy and paste your input to others your helping many see the near future.
I have an MG ZS EV with a range of 256 km. Sure, I would like a longer range car but as it is I only charge it once a week overnight on a standard wall plug. If my wife and I need to travel we have an old petrol car. In Australia, the government has just halved the petrol excise which means I am paying tax at six times the rate of a petrol car.
@@stephenbrickwood1602 Prior to the halving of the petrol excise we were getting slugged with almost three times the rate of the petrol excise. The energy in a litre of petrol is 9.1 kwh. Thus, a litre equivalent of electricity is 9.1 kwh. If we take a typical EV range figure of, say, 18.2 kwh per 100 km we use 9.1 kwh i.e. one litre petrol equivalent per 50 km. At 2.5 cents per kilometre tax we pay $1.25 every 50km. That is, we are paying tax of $1.25 per litre; 197% more than the petrol excise of 42.7 cents. Now that the petrol excise has been halved, we are paying six times the rate.
Charge time and availability has and will always be the main discouraging factor, not range. Range can be solved in many ways, but what most people fear is being stuck somewhere without easy access to charging, and whatever charging is accessible, is going to be at minimum 30-60 minute expense or more. The reason gas cars are still favorable in that regard, is that you can simply take journeys without having to plan for every little intricacy, error, potential hazard like traffic, etc. You just go. And if you are out of range, you find somewhere nearby and refill at no more than 5 minutes of wait time. Often when you're driving, you're at some kind of timed schedule. Maybe you're going to do some practical things, get your kids, surprise need for certain supplies, an unplanned visit to someone, etc. It's the versatility that people have come to know and expect from their personal mobility. And without access to easy quick charging, this practicality suffers a major penalty. Are you going to stop by your parents' place for a spur-of-the-moment dinner, if it means you might risk having to wait an hour for your car to charge to get you there and back? No. You'd want to simply count that time expense as a minor addition to the travel time itself, not as a potential 100% surplus of inconvenience or more. People own their own personal transportation vehicles because in contrast to public transport, it allows them flexibility and adaptibility at any point no matter what, and at exactly their own tempo without need for pre planning. That's what fast charging offers. That's why long range is less of an issue, because long range offers usecases where a high degree of pre planning is often involved in the first place anyways. If you're travelling 500+ miles, you're likely to have a long stop for eating along the way, you can combine time expenses so they cover each other and you won't feel the impact of either in isolation. But with shorter and unplanned trips (the ones we most often make use of on a daily basis) this is no longer viable for most people. You're not gonna stop to eat on your way to work. You're not gonna just plan for 30-60 minutes of downtime during your errands. So you're often left charging at home or at work, and inevitably when a situation arises where those options are no longer sufficient, that's when it truly sucks to have an EV. THAT is the real issue. Range is not. Range can be pre planned around. Adaptive charging options can't.
Imagine you just got a call. A loved one is on their death bed. But they live one state over. An 8 hour drive. About 500 miles. But you just got off work and got home. Your car is at 50%. You leave and go as far as you can, you drive fast. finding a supercharger you've only made it 150 miles. Now you're stuck for 30 minutes. You go again. But this time you can only make it 100 miles because you can't charge to full. Another 30 minutes. Another 100 miles. Another 30 minutes. Another 100 miles. Another 30 minutes. And finally. 10 hours later you arrive at their side. And you're minutes too late.
@@t_c5266 Agreed. EVs are not practical as a primary, do-everything vehicle, for the U.S. For specific use cases, i.e. suburban homeowner second vehicle, they work fine.
@@asajayunknown6290 I agree on the second vehicle deal. Useful to be a daily driver. And the truck ones are even further away because towing shortens their range to maybe 30%. And trucks are the vehicle that drives the furthest due to needing them for a lot of vacation purposes
One huge barrier to rolling out DCFC in large capacities is the "demand fee" charged by the electric companies. This is based on the max kW used and would require ev charging fees well in excess of gasoline just to break even.
It's not charge times that are the big deal-breaker, it's the overall lack of infrastructure. If you want to go sightseeing in your EV, you're effectively limited to the destinations that are both in range and are served by EV fast-chargers. Otherwise, you're stuck spending the night at a motel while your EV trickle-charges. Then there's the incredibly short-sighted lack of standardization among EVs and charging stations. Every gas pump will work with every car made for the past 120 some-odd years. The same can't be said for every EV & charger made just over the last 10 years.
I’m hoping the plug issues gets worked out in the next 2 years. Most of the industry has coalesced around CCS as the standard plug and even Tesla has announced that they’re going to provide options for CCS cars to charge at their stations. If I remember correctly, teslas sold in the future are going to have a Tesla -> CCS adapter sold with them as well.
Is range anxiety grounded in actual facts? Yes, I’m watching this video while wondering around a mall aimlessly waiting for my car to get enough miles to get home
This! For me it was just a mental block that prevented me from trying out the car. Now I’m like you. I’ve found the infrastructure that works for what I need.
This! For me it was just a mental block that prevented me from trying out the car. Now I’m like you. I’ve found the infrastructure that works for what I need.
It's great to see this kind of innovation, but I am not sure we can keep up with building fast enough the much slower chargers, so from the perspective of the grid I am not seeing to many development supporting this speed and energy demand. Am I wrong?
I’d also appreciate if you would include how much of the electricity currently consumed by fossil fuel processing and refining that would be reduced and then redirected towards supporting EVs as their adoption increases. As I understand, the oil refining facilities use a significant portion of our electricity generation capacity.
It makes economic sense to install grid scale battery storage systems where daily peak power demands routinely exceed the grid's peak power capacity, there is more than enough off peak capacity, and customers are willing to pay a premium for peak power. As of a few years ago, a typical grid scale system would be made up of some number of 20 foot shipping containers containing 4 megawatt, 16 megawatt-hour systems installed at an electrical substation. The capital cost for these continues to drop. It is likely that in the near future, during fast charging a single Tesla Semi will be able to use one megawatt. A single 20 foot battery could power 4 such chargers at their maximum rate. In practice, chargers aren't in continuous use because the drivers eat and use the restrooms while charging. So in practice, a single battery could support more chargers. Groups of chargers communicate with each other and will limit charge rates as needed to prevent tripping circuit breakers. It is likely that the massive charging cables for megawatt scale chargers will be mechanically supported so that the driver won't have to lift them. Imagine a cable supported by a robot arm or overhead crane.
@@hamjudo I would be happy if we could do what you suggest, but there are 2 reasons I am not sure it's possible at least in the next few years. One, we don't have enough battery capacity even for cars. Two, if we convert the energy stored in fuel burned in cars to electricity, we will very soon exceed the capacity of the grid today. Just a simple calculation. If we assume that one 50kwh battery is enough for a week driving (it's approximately 50 km/day) that means we need 200 kW per car per month. I'm not sure what is the consumption in us for a household but I'm sure its less than 200 kW per month. Even if we say one car per household we are probably 4-5 times of the energy usage of a household. And this is only the driving part. Heating and cooling will make it even much more demanding for the grid. I'm not sure how long it will take if we can even have enough batteries for discentralise the grid with batteries. But I might be totally off with my calculations.
The problem with charging fast is the power transfer rate. To transfer 100kw in 10 minutes you would need to push over 5000 amps at 120v. At 240v it's still 2500 amps. Even at 1200v it's still 500 amps. The problem is you need a 600+kwh power supply to charge a 100kwh battery in 10 minutes. A home only gets about 48kwh service on the high end. So even if you dedicated the entire service to charging the battery it will take over 2 hours.
C rate isn't the amount of current going to battery, it is a ratio of charge current vs max capacity. 1C rate means it will charge in 1 hour. 2C 30 minutes, 3C 20 minutes, 4C 15 minutes, etc. Importantly, you need to slow down charge as battery charges, especially after 80%. Also, the reason DCFC isn't for residential use isn't voltage, it is power limits. Realistically a 200A service will provide around 45KW maximum, but you want to stay within 80%, and also you need power for the house, A/C, dryer, etc. So perhaps 20KW would be available. Level 2 chargers are around 6KW, this is good for 20-25 miles per hour, more than enough for home charging.
Mr. Matt Ferrell, I love advancements, and the innovation of technology's that improve the things around us, despite the fact that I do not like the distance it sets between the "have's," and the "have not's." This gets even worst when it comes to "DIY.". So, whenever I watch one of your videos I am evaluating it from that "point of view.". Can I make it? Can I fix it? Can I afford to buy it? If the answers are "NO!" Then I am out of the loop, and nobody cares. This means I have to change the game, and wright new rules as to how it's played, because I wouldn't want to count you or anyone else out. For this I am called an "as hole." However, I have to ask the question; are the improvements in today's technology making things better, or more of the same, in that, the damage is still there you just have to know were to find it? That being said; who is the real "as hole?". I haven't done any damage yet, and sincerely strive to make things better. But, I don't think these new "quick charge batteries," are going to solve anything.
As you describe, you need adequate power and cables. Also heat dissipation. I'm skeptical that a hand-held device can replace adequate charging infrastructure. I've owned an EV for over 6 years, and I'm satisfied with slow overnight charging and "fast" charging while I have lunch.
Glad they are making battery upgrades. There are still huge issues with EV adoption. The cost of the charging infrastructure (as you said 150k for fast charger) and the range issue. Driving a typical suburban commute is very doable now in California, but as soon as you leave the (rich) urban areas charging disappears. Rural Residents drive longer and faster than urban residents and lack the resources to pay for these vehicles. Plus poor weather performance is an big issue for most of the country. Best you can do with most EVs is "cable chains" which don't really cut it when the weather gets bad. Lots of progress, but a lot more to go.
If charge time is reduced to 15 minutes and EVs become very popular, we need way more charge stations across the country than existing fuel pumps. If fueling a passenger vehicle took 15 minutes, you could get stuck in line for hours waiting to get to a pump. Same goes for EVs if everyone owns one.
Hello Matt and greetings from Woonsocket, RI. Have you done a video on calculating your Tesla's battery degradation since ownership? Just wondering. I know lots of folks have done it, but you live in our neck of the woods, it would be interesting to see! Thanks!
1. Tesla batteries are already well below $100. That's why they are making massive profits, while everyone else is still losing money on EVs. 2. Charging time is not an issue anymore. Yes, it's slower than filling up with gas, but it's very rarely a real issue. In exchange it's far more convenient to charge an EV. And a lot cheaper too. 3. 95% of the time charging time is completely irrelevant, because you are doing it at home. I'm charging my Tesla right now, while watching this video instead of working. 4. Btw. I can watch RUclips and Netflix in my Tesla on a big screen, which makes charging time almost completely irrelevant even if I have to sit in the car. 5. The main issue today is not range, not charging speed, not even price, it's scale. We have good enough batteries at an affordable price, but we will need an absolutely insane amount to replace all gas cars and all fossil fuel power plants. 6. Ultra fast charging has a big issue. It requires huge amount of power, which is not available everywhere. To charge a 100kWh battery in 6 minutes requires 1MW of power. An entire Tesla charging station could use up to 100MW. That's a small power plant.
For storing 100Kwh you may require a large battery bank. Assuming batteries of 200Ah capacity no of batteries required = 100x1000 / 200x12 = 42 batteries. Coming to the question charging 100Kwh in 10 minutes means Power rating required would be 100 x 60/10 = 600 Kw of Dc power.
@@transcrobesproject3625 Energy storage helps, but only if average utilization is relatively low. Wind turbines and solar panels have too low power density. 100MW of continuous power requires like 25-50 million square feet of solar panels, or an even bigger area for wind turbines. Plus like a hundred Megapacks. Long term something like that will happen. It won't be a dedicated farm, but a distributed one in the area, connected by Tesla's VPP software.
@@andrasbiro3007 Um, you're saying that it takes millions of square feet of solar panels/windmills and hundreds of megapacks to charge a single Tesla? Or to power a 24/7 constant stream of Teslas for a supercharger station? It would be ridiculous to say it is going to be easy or cheap to set up but I personally would vote for putting up mini stations with as much distributed generation and storage as possible. Teslas (I have read) can already make suggestions on where to stop and stations could also communicate if they are running low on juice so that is also taken into account. Remember that most of these stations are not going to be at 100% for much of the day. And my understanding is that there are much more appropriate technologies for megapacks (like based on iron, with lower density but much safer and cheaper) that haven't been properly commercialised yet because the economics of lithium haven't made it necessary yet. No?
No gain without pain. The faster you charge the shorter your battery life and the lower the efficiency of charge. It is possible to add 33% to a Model 3 in 10 minutes. If you start your day with 100%, to drive 500 miles it only requires two 15 minute charges which is less than that required for comfort breaks. The main reason for range anxiety is more about charger availability and reliability.
i could dream that when people realize they dont need to necessarily own a car, there will be a big time. We can travel around the world digitally today, with almost all the benefits, without many shortcomings
20% less energy density may seem like a lot but I guess if you can do away with the cooling systems needed as well as the weight you are going to increase the range or increase the amount of battery cells you could fit, either way it would remove the 20% loss and also decrease the charge time, the only road block I can see is the charging infrastructure is not there to support it, great to see this type of innovation though and I can see a lot of potential for this tech in the energy grid, also possibly in smart phones, I just seen the Xiaomi Mi 12 Pro has a 120watt charger and can charge from 0-100% in 20 minutes.
Fast Charging to me is always comical. As an EV owner, I always have a laugh seeing the same vehicle owners sitting at DC Fast Charging stations, filling up their EVs from near empty, to nearly 100%.....ALL the time. To clarify, by "all the time" I am referring to these owners not wanting to charge at home (I've asked them) as they see it as more convenient to charge at a DCFC. Trouble is (and where the comedy kicks in) is they are doing damage to their battery packs by doing these harsh cycles on them, and then complain that their EV doesn't get the range it used to. I tried to explain to them that it is no different than if they have an ICE vehicle, and then drove it hard with high RPM. Over time, the engine is going to need to be rebuilt. The wear and tear on an EV will come mostly from the battery pack, when an ICE is everywhere else BUT the fuel tank :P
The ones that make me laugh are the ones that insist on always going to 100% on DCFC. Saw one on my last road trip. I pulled in to charge starting at 30% and noticed that he was at 75% when I started my charge. Went to grab lunch and noticed he was still there when I got back (90% now). Then he finally hit 100% and drove away at the same time that I hit 80% and drove away. I’m honestly not even sure that he noticed how much time he was wasting trying to get that last 20%. And that’s disregarding the damage he was doing to his battery!
I don’t see many trying to go over 80 and many, including me, have free plans. My VW is 3 years and there is a Walmart and Lowes there. I can kill 40 minutes easily between shopping or email and RUclips and talking to other owners.
What ki lls me are the people that have the Range anxiety , but do not drive above the range the cars would get. They do not take trips, they do not commute above the rated car range.
I wouldn't say I have range anxiety, but range is something that factors into my decision making process. I pre-ordered a Tesla Cybertruck because I miss my truck (traded it in for a Prius in 2012). One of the big reasons I chose a Cybertruck over other options was range. For me, 500 miles on a charge or 250 miles towing something is the sweet spot. Very seldom do I ever drive more than 500 miles in a day when travelling around America, and as far as I can tell there are EV fast chargers at least every 400 miles pretty much anywhere in the country. The main reason I say 500 miles instead of 400 miles, which is roughly how much my Prius gets when travelling at 80mph on the freeway, is because unknowns happen. I was once stuck in a traffic jam and then diverted due to forest fire and had to backtrack 300 miles; there were no fast charging stations for almost 200 of those miles, leaving very little room for error if I'd been driving an EV instead of a hybrid.
Agree. That is why I also ordered Cyber Trucks. Hoping Elon would make sure non towed range was closer to 600 miles (like he talked), instead of 500. I am used to 600 mile ranges today with various Ford ICE trucks, and large sedans. Range like this comes in very handy for a bunch of reasons.
It’s funny I was just talking to a coworker about this the other day. In the city we live in, Tesla’s aren’t very common. There are maybe 6 or 7. He had commented that what kills the idea for him is charging time and I told him “y’know that’s actually where the really exciting advancements are right now. Yeah production models take upwards of 45 minutes to an hour or more to reach a full charge, and I fully admit that’s not very convenient, but the stuff that’s just come out of the lab and being upscaled right now is insane. Full charge in 20 minutes, 80% in 15 or less. We’re on the fast track for EV’s to match the convenience of ICE cars in the next 5 years.” His next question was “huh… wow I didn’t know that. How do they ride though?” “The only way I can describe it when I was ubered by an old model S was that it didn’t feel like a car accelerating. It felt like pure motion and even that’s kind of underselling it, it was really strange but in a very good way.”
let's just forget about the common weak links here to affordability. Gas is cheap generally speaking without being strong armed by politics. Lithium is not, as well as during an inflationary period.
Range anxiety to me means that the "expected range" is less than half of what I would call my minimum acceptable range for anything other than a city commuter. If I'm on vacation, I'm often driving for ten hours in a single day to get to my destination. Not to mention that I don't expect there to be an EV charge station in the middle of the woods where I'm camping. While lithium batteries have exceptional energy density these days, their capacity will still degrade over time, which will further decrease range. Then comes the ultimate end of the battery: where does it go at the end of its life cycle and how does that impact the environment? What's the total impact of battery production and disposal over the entire lifespan of a daily-driven vehicle? Then there's grid capacity: how much of our energy grid, as aging and overburdened as it is already, would need to be completely replaced or upgraded in order to supply EV charging requirements once they become widely adopted? Though an EV would make an excellent commuter car for short jaunts within city limits, there is often something even more environmentally friendly in major cities: public transit. (Talking about electric rail systems, trams, etc. Not the poorly-maintained city busses running on diesel) Nevertheless, every advancement in battery tech is a step in the right direction. Plus, the pollution aspect at the end-user is something that can be managed, rather than something that constantly flows out of the exhaust while in operation.
The reason I have a plug-in hybrid instead of an EV is because I have to drive through Nebraska to get to most of the places I want to road trip to. I could genuinely deal with charging times for road trips if I was 2 or 3 states west 😂
I think recharging at 10 miles a minute is acceptable, higher power density and lower cost is what I would like to see now. That and better charging infrastructure so as mentioned by others range anxiety is not an issue.
There is another hurdle. Just imagine everyone wanting to fast charge on a typical highway. The power infrastructure just isn't ready for that kind of demand.
thats why i still see a point for plug-in-hybrids. Even it purists say its nonsense, which is true for nowadays tesla driver 'pioneers' that rarely see crowded cahrgers, i cant imagine how the endless convoi of germans/dutch... driving down the highways of Austria in summer to get to Italy and Croatia half of france on their way to the mediterranean, should get their cars recharged and how to bring the sheer amount of electricity to the highways. Colleague of mine had the same reflections and ended up with a Kia plug in hybrid and is pretty happy. The electric range is plentyful for his daily commute for 2-3 days (he works on a site where bicycle or public are really NOT an option). But for the weekend or large holiday trip, he does not rely on charging infrastructure. Also, the rare materials for the battery are optimally used. Compared to a pure ICE car, the engine suffers a lot less from short rides. He has it for a year now and was at a fuel station 3 x.
I agree with Olivier: Since the infrastructure is transitioning from fossil fuels to electricity, it makes sense to have a vehicle that can utilize both kinds of infrastructures. Matt recently did a video about Solar Electric Vehicles (SEVs) though, and the potential of the Aptera SEV to charge some 50 miles in a day, given ideal conditions, just from the sun is a powerfully liberating concept. Edit: Matt Ferrell, not Marr Ferrell
Niobium is rare, about 80% of the amount of cobalt available in Earth's crust. It already has a lot of uses, similar to cobalt. If it doesn't result in a cobalt-free battery, most folks probably won't be willing to foot the extra expense.
Cobalt can be replaced with iron or even manganese. The output terminal voltage may change but that is a minor detail. The good thing is that cobalt replacement is relatively easy. It is the lithium that is proving to be a mess.
Lithium is 20 times more crustily abundant, and the spot price for Lithium right now is $497,500.00 USD per tone, right now there is low demand for Niobium at $45,000 per ton. But wait until there is serious demand for it. I'm pretty sure it will get more expensive too, lithium was just @$16,500.00 a ton in 2018 that's 30 times higher. In 2020 the average 65kwh EV battery has about 8kg's of lithium about $2,388.00USD in each car.
The real problem is a matter of infrastructure - The electrical grid cannot support those types of charging rates using existing cabling to transmit power. Remember most homes have only a 200amp service panel. There is not enough ability to increase "the Juice" over the current cables which come to our homes. If every home in a existing neighborhood had a EV charging on a daily basis, it would literally melt the power lines on the telephone poles coming to our homes. This is before the ability to perform any type of "Fast Charge".
Hot Take: Charging in 5 minutes is LESS convenient than charging in 10 to 15 minutes. Why? Anything less than 10 minutes and charging becomes a discrete fueling event (much like filling up a gas tank), and as a result, no multitasking is possible. Essentially, EV owners would be back to wasting time standing in front of the "pump" in much the same way as gas car owners currently do. That lost time = inconvenience.
Agreed. I dreaded the amount of charging time needed when I bought my EV…until I did it the first time and realized I didn’t need to be with my car anymore. Heck, my car is charging while I type this! But it’s in the parking lot on a L1 while I’m inside working my 9-5 :-)
Personally I'm rooting for StoreDot. They have been around for years and have managed to get through multiple investment rounds, meaning their technology most likely works as advertised, even if it's not perfect and might not be better than those other examples. However, there is space for many players on the market - as long as there aren't too many competing standards.
Since buying my EV I have learned to... . Chill. When I go shopping I park on a free 7kw charger in my local town and instead of tearing around grabbing stuff I take my time. I walk to other stores in the town (Im in the UK, not Texas walking is a thing here, we have footpaths and everything !). I visit various stores and buy what is best/cheapest at each. After an hour or so I have added more charge in my car than I used to get to town and back. It takes 30 or 40 mins more, no big deal. I have stopped in a highway fast charger, plugged in , used the toilet (washroom to you Mericans), grabbed a coffee and topped up enough to finish my journey. Ive spent longer parking, using the toilet, then pulling over to the gas pumps, then waiting in line for a fuel pump, then waiting in line to pay (pre contactless). How long is the average stop at Buck'ees ! (for the Texans). Its just a different mindset and I find it more relaxing.
I believe that "range anxiety" is a term concocted by the EV industry. It's the EV industry saying "Our EVs don't have a problem with range. You just have a mental condition we call range anxiety. It's very clever.
I recently took my first road trip in my EV, and I’m convinced the current issue is DCFC infrastructure. Like you say, current cars are able to get to 80% (which gives you 2-3 hours of driving) in 20-30 minutes which sounds longer than gasoline cars at first. But the issue is that most of us don’t simply gas up and go. We go into the store and use the bathroom at the least or we buy a bite to eat and take a stretch break at most. So at the end of the day, most people are already spending 20-30 minutes at the gas station even if they don’t think it. So we mostly just need to build out that infrastructure! Will be interesting to see where this battery tech eventually goes though!
Depends on how you drive... I for one don't "stop to eat" its drive through or grab and go and I can take a quick piss. Within 5 minutes my car is filled, my bladder is empty, and I have solid and liquid snacks to keep me going for another 5+ hours. If I didn't care how long it took me to go somewhere then I could consider an EV, but most of the time that means less time used for my vacation activities. Add cold and windy winter driving into the mix and that EVs range drops to the point where I am recharging every 3 hours or less on a road trip, pff, no thanks!
@@RIPPEDDRAGON40k time your pit stop next time you take a road trip. I’m willing to bet that this routine ends up taking you 15-20 minutes from the moment you hit go on the gas to when you are ready to start the engine again. So, unless you’re routinely driving more than 6 hours in a day, there’s a good chance that your fears are unfounded. And if you ARE routinely doing loner drives then that then you’re so far in the minority of users that it will be a long time until car manufactures get around to making a car that meets your needs.
@@RIPPEDDRAGON40k At a gas station, you can't fill up and do all those other things as the same time. I bet pumping gas and then finding a parking spot to tackle the other items takes 10 minutes. Hitting the bathroom and then grabbing a snack and drink are most likely another 10 minutes. I drive from GA to FL in an older Model S with less range and slower charging than the current models and I stop to charge twice on my 450mi route. Day trips in an EV are perfectly doable. The real advantage is your daily commute and charging at night. You always have a full tank and never waste time at a gas station and save a good bit of money in the process. The time saved on daily driving substantially more than offsets the charging time on the occasional road trip. I love how people take one occasional use case and because it's not exactly what they are use to, they decide the next wave of technology is not for them.
Its called a co-pilot, you multi task and keep each stop as short as possible. On a 2000 mile trip I am looking at 4 stops for gas or 7 stops for electricity. Which adds up to more than 3 more hours of travel time or approx 12% slower. Why would anyone use an EV for long distance... A plug in hybrid would work great but yall love your Tesla's. I do a lot of this driving in the winter for skiing and even worse is EV performance in the cold. I will have to keep my fingers crossed the outdoor temps are warm enough to make it to a ski mountain without a recharge and hope there is an available EV spot at the mountain so I can recharge to get home. I have yet to find a reason to replace my Audi as my road trip ski wagon. Give me a 500 mile range in the wind below freezing and I would finally consider moving to an EV. Till then is gasser or plugin hybrid for me. I don't need a car for daily commuting as I WFH mostly, I need a car that can regularly go 250+ miles to the middle of nowhere and then another 250+ miles back to home.
Sigh. I don't care how long it takes to charge my EV. I just did multiple 600km+ trips - including one that was 1,000km. I almost never had to wait to charge. At every stop I had a bio-break, ate something, replied to some messages and sent out more, etc. I know non-EV drivers talk about this all the time, but actual EV drivers generally do not. Honestly I find this video disappointing. I really think you can do way better than this.
What type of area do you live in? I know in Canada we have very limited charging off the Trans-Canada Highway. If you want to go north of south of the highway you run out of places to charge. In order for an EV to be a main family vehicle there has to be a lot more charging stations or an efficient solar power option that you can setup when you stop at your destination.
was your employer paying you at the recharging? my son has a fleet he would like to go electric but he would have to pay two people at each recharge adding to the cost.
I have done chicago to flordia in 16 hours many times. when i have 2 weeks of vacation time, i dont want to spend all of it traveling to my dest and back....
@@victorhopper6774 people who drive for their job have legal requirements for rest breaks. Besides, fuel and maintenance savings would offset the costs of charging time.
I'm tired of battery pundits saying "the cost of battery pack dropped by 89% over the last 10 years" as if that means anything. It means NOTHING. As of right now, inclusive of that 89% reduction in cost, they are still far too expensive. They aren't going to continue to drop like that. Its an exponential curve and it has already decayed like 4 time constants towards the asymptote. In fact, with supply chain problems they are actually going to go UP this year not down, for the first time ever. What matters is not what has happened but what will happen.
@@JimmyLLL Yes, the charging station trickle charges a large static battery, and then when a car comes along dumps a huge amount of power into the car. It reduces grid requirements.
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When do you think we’ll start seeing fast charging batteries like these in the market? And if you're interested in an Ecoflow Delta Max, you can buy one directly from Ecoflow: ecoflow.com?aff=195 or through Amazon: amzn.to/37PYVaL. If you liked this video, be sure to also check out, "How This Plant Could Replace Concrete." ruclips.net/video/mx7g79Jh66k/видео.html
People that ask that question don't comprehend the idea of charging vs. gas. They just don't know how leaving from home with a full tank in the morning feels like. All they know is driving to the gas station in the morning.
just putting it out there. capacitors, large ones does not take long to build up their charge..
@@norwegiansmores811 and take less time to deplete.
FYI: you Egoflow link redirects to "404 Page Not Found", also not for sale on Amazon any more...
In China BEVs can already be manufactured for less cost than ICEV. So either their battery packs have already hit that magical number in China (I'm sure there was some no. it had to hit), or the manufacturing process itself has gotten better (very likely), considering you don't have a big hunk of engine and transmission. I think the manufacturing process had as much to do with getting costs down, along with all the investment into new plants, as did the cost of battery packs.
And then you have Tesla's structural battery pack which should make manufacturing even more simple. On top of that they use the tabless 4680 battery and THAT battery can also charge pretty quickly. It's not 5 - 10 minutes, but I think it gets you up and going in less time than it takes to stop and eat, stretch and use the restroom. I forget the data on it. But being tabless means that charge is going through the entire jellyroll from top to bottom at the same time, and not having to work from the tab, and then spread out across the length of the jellyroll, which is what takes so long. So Tesla's 4680 WILL speed up charging. Don't remember if you've done a video on this one or not.
Oh, and the charger is meaningless without the batteries that can actually pull in that much energy at once. This material I assume will help, but frankly with Tesla re-engineering the typical Li-Ion battery the way they did and are now starting to get it into vehicles this year (they started already), it's already a big jump in heat reduction, charge time reduction, manufacturing cost, weight reduction, I mean it's a big change already. So I don't know how much Tesla could benefit from this. I'm sure the typical Li-Ion battery that has tabs could benefit from it.
In fact when I looked at this battery, Tesla's seems superior. This has a wide tab, but it doesn't cover the length of the whole roll, even though this isn't really rolled up. Tesla's makes cuts out of the top and bottom metal conductor to where they fold down and sit correctly when rolled up and pressed down to fit into the cylinder of the 4680. Basically the tab is the ENTIRE length of the battery. So if I were going to say anything about this tech, it's similar to what BYD uses or CATL uses already, but not as good as what Tesla has with the 4680.
Range anxiety has more to do with fast charging availability instead of the EV's range. In other words if every exit on the interstate/highway had DC fast chargers then drivers wouldn't be worried about running out of charge because hey could always jus pull over at the next exit to charge. That does not mean we do not need sufficient range in EVs. I'm just addressing the anxiety cause by availability of charging which is incorrectly called range anxiety.
Yeah every time I hear the term "range anxiety" I'm like, no that's not why I don't buy one...
I would gladly buy an electric car even now, both if I could afford one and if I had space for several cars. And then there's if I wanted to bother wasting money on insurance, plates and registration for 2 cars since I'm keeping my gas powered car for any and all long distance trips.
I'm not driving from Montreal to Toronto or New Hampshire in an electric car when I'm at the primitive mercy of the current electric grid/charging station infrastructure.
@@ericmann1781 i live here in the South and they are starting to put them everywhere... sign of the times man - it's getting there
@@ericmann1781 With a Tesla the infrastructure is surprisingly good. For instance Montreal to Toronto has 2 superchargers along the route, with a 3rd outside Montreal and you only need to stop at once of them. Montreal to New Hampshire again, just 1 short stop in Berlin VT. With a couple of adapters you can also charge at electrify america, or any state or national park with RV plugs. A nice thing about Tesla superchargers is you just shove the plug in an go. No need for an app, no need to swipe a credit card or enter your zip code, no noisy ads playing.
There is something along the line of one public charger station every 60 miles on average in Illinois, like you mentioned it will be a lot less of an anxiety if there was one charging station every 2-5 miles
@@JackMott Ok I'm not going to spend over $70K Cad on the base Tesla 3 just for access to that...
What is stopping me from going electric right now is the price. A local dealer, for instance, wants $12,000 over MSRP for the electric Hyundai on his lot and I've heard similar stories from around the country. Even without that markup, all new cars are just far out of most people's comfort zone at this point, as the medium (or maybe it was average) price of a new car, electric or not, was reported by Consumer Reports to be $46,000. Until prices come down, most people simply cannot afford to trade up to a new electric car, regardless of how good the range or how fast the charge time.
Where I live, people overwhelmingly own pickups and suvs that cost way over 50k. I sat in a 120K ford pickup at the dealership, 120K for a gas guzzling truck that will never ever be used as a truck. It’s not just price or range anxiety. It’s politics, obesity, ignorance and refusal to accept change.
@@buckbenelli8 Same here Im in TN and half the vehicles are trucks ( ok not literally lol but close ). And on top of that I live in a country town that has the big jacked up trucks that never go off road Loooooool!
I'm looking for a used (gasoline) car and prices right now are INSANE. 2016 cars with 30,000+ miles, selling for more than they cost when they were Brand New!!! With the extreme shortage of new cars, the price of used cars has skyrocketed.
@@buckbenelli8 Ford has substantially cheaper trims. An F150 XL trim can be had for 43K with the 7.2kW PowerBoost hybrid option. People go crazy with the options for what used to be a working vehicle. If the vehicle is going to serve multiple purposes, then yes, consumers will add content and jack up the price. As for dealers charging over MSRP, there's a spreadsheet online that list dealers charging MSRP for Hyundai and Kia EVs.
Sticker prices are still considerably higher for EVs, but I'm pretty sure that at least for new cars, total cost of ownership is significantly lower for EVs than fossil-fueled cars. Time to break even will vary, fuel prices and especially electricity prices vary a lot geographically. But running costs and maintenance and second hand value should all favor EVs.
At least that is what has happened in Norway, which is a few years ahead of Europe and especially the laggard USA in this respect. Over 90% of new cars sold are now electric - that does NOT include plugin hybrids, and of course not plain old hybrids - and anyone considering a fossil car has to worry about second hand value collapsing as there's a realistic risk they'll face use restrictions such as not being allowed into city centers.
I drove a leased EV for 3 years, and generally loved it. The biggest problem for me was my location: I live in the northern US. In the winter, my EV would get at most just half of its stated range. And if I used the heater, it would cut that in half again. In warm weather, though, I rarely had range anxiety since I was just taking the car to work and back. But I'm glad that there's been so much EV tech development in the last few years.
Have you heard of Superconductivity.
Batteries will soon be nothing more than glorified capacitors.
@@robh467 lol nobody has achieved superconductivity in normal outside temperature ranges. Have you heard about people who have no idea what they're talking about? You're nothing more than a glorified speaker spewing science-fiction.
A modern EV needs a good heat pump for better efficiency. So if you have a 500 km range during summer, you shouldn't get less than 350 km during winter, even with the heater on.
That's why I like PHEV's. If it gets under freezing the motor will idle to warm up the batteries. It also helps your EV range when using the heater if the motor is idling. Plus if you live in an area where it freezes AND you can't always leave it plugged in the car is kinda pointless. That's where most of the winter range problems come into effect.
@@robh467 Yeah, superconducting capacitors just around the corner, like fusion.
i live in Mumbai, India. I have noticed an increase in number of ev's on road. whenever i get down even for a quick stroll i atleast see 2 ev's on the road. This is making me, very excited for ev's future in India.
I'm Brazilian and I don't know how to feel about it...
Just like lithium largest reserves are causing tensions in Bolivia, Brazil is the largest reserve in Niobium and the next EV industry target.
It's an opportunity but also a liability... and seeing the current government "legalize" mining in indigenous land makes me really sad.
The state's former public company responsible for mining was privatized decades ago. The profits were privatized and do not go to public good. The mining company also had been involved in many environment disasters, most recently a damn holding heavy metal waste broke and destroyed the city of Brumadinho killing hundreds of people in the process while also contaminating the environment. People are still fighting to get compensations in the justice system.
Now seeing this video I don't know how to call it... hope? despair? It's weird... They say niobium is strategic to the country, but I don't see my life directly changing because of it... The niobium (to be) oligarchs are trying to push the package of it being good for the economy, (because they might hold a monopoly). But knowing my country, the most probable future is privatized greed screwing the environment and rain forest and the public paying the price. They might possibly get the land of the "índios" along the way.
It would be good if we were able to produce everything from universal materials like carbon, sodium, magnesium. A reliance on rare resources concentrated geographically will always lead to conflict. (internal and maybe even external)
Thanks for pointing that out Marcelo.
Progress without regard for environment is very dangerous. It's important that we, Brazilians, inform the world public opinion about all the corruption involving mineral extraction throughout amazon and other brazilian biomes.
Damn. Wish there was something I could do. That sounds horrendous.
At the very least? The people of Brazil need to stand up to the government and make sure money made from destroying Brazil? goes to the people of Brazil instead of their own pockets.
Sorry - I'm being hopelessly optimistic. I just wish Brazil wasn't being ripped off by the entire world - let alone the destruction of the Amazon :(
This is exactly what is wrong with our society when it comes to consumption. We simply do not care about what the impacts are to others, only to ourselves.
We see this daily in all the people looking for the "lowest price" for ANYTHING, even if it means spending 5% more to literally make a 500% difference on living conditions or environmental impact.
Sadly, the reality is that this will not change. Greed is not just with the oligarchs. It is in everyone, and is a conscious choice made many times per day.
IMO the main selling point of niobium battery is it's longer durability. And it would be perfect for electronics and home storage.
👍 Agreed.
@@dctrjekyll3573 So this dctrjekyll account was created one week ago, and all his posts are ones taking a dump on Matt. Dude, dial it down. Did Matt's dog take a dump on your yard? Or perhaps you work for big oil, and you cr#p on any RUclipsr who promotes EV technology.
@@phantomreaver85 lifepo4 are great and I wish they were used in more applications. Unfortunately they are significantly heavier. When factoring in weight they only have around 60% of the capacity per unit weight of li-ion. In terms of heat, they still generate alot of heat while charging, so the fast charge heat problem isn't solved with lifepo4, they are just drastically safer; don't overheat, catch fire, or explode.
@Mars niobium is about 250% more expensive than lithium. No word on the cost per unit yet on these batteries, but it doesn't seem cheap.
@@peterwein1716 not to mention they're also slightly lower voltage at 3.2v/cell nominal, compared to more traditional li-ion at 3.6-3.7v/cell nominal, so a comparable high-voltage pack would need more lifepo4 cells to get the same voltage, in addition to having lower wh/kg. I'm with you on wanting to see more use of lifepo4 cells in things where it makes sense though, since they do have better durability and aren't nearly as finicky about things like over/under charging or temperature.
Getting charging times down could really change the sustainability of EV in terms of battery materials needed. If a car only takes 10 minutes to charge back up, and charging infrastructure keeps growing, a lot of people are gonna be fine with 150-200 mile range instead of 300+
That is the big problem, here in the UK it is calculated that we going to need 400.000 charging stations and apparently we have only 3.000 of them (end of year 2022) the second issue is that the power grid is already on the last leg with so much power demand.
Let's give props to Matt for putting an effort in giving both Fahrenheit and Celcius temperature figures
I was not aware that you could connect two extra batteries to increase the capacity of the Delta Max. That is sweet.
Ha, it must be said that I skip over most of those promos, but I'm pretty sure I looked at every one of the products. I hadn't seen such a modularized solution before.
iHackYourToaster , And you will swear about the truth of all these comments... right?
? I don't know what your comment means
I charged my Volt overnight at 110V/12A, standard plug, standard outlet. That was enough for local driving. Fast charging is really only needed for long distance drives. A 20 minute break every few hours is no bad thing. Professional drivers have to take breaks, by law.
Yea. A lot of people focus on the time they spend at a DCFC just a couple times a year during a long road trip while ignoring all the time they save on a weekly basis because they never have to visit a gas station.
Had both a Volt and Caddi ELR. Great cars. Could drive on electric for weeks at a time and still hit the road and head to LA without worrying about it (500 miles). Had 220 in Garage and they charged from empty in 4 hours or so. Plug In Hybrids are perfect for dealing with range concerns.
@@chrisbrown1462 true. Plug in hybrids really seem like a no brainer for anyone who has (or can get) a plug where ever they park their car every night.
@@chrisbrown1462 But hybrids lose out on some of the main benefits of Battery EVs. The lack of maintenance, and the fun of driving such a peppy car. I'm not even talking about the stupid fast 0-60mph times. Even my Nissan Leaf is peppier than an ICE car. Full Torque from 0mph. No latency while the gas engine spools up, and goes through the torque converter and then the transmission. No Gas Engine, No Torque Convert, and No Transmission. Win-Win-Win.
@@guygordon2780 It depends on the hybrid system - the series hybrid (Volt, ELR etc) is basically an EV with a sustainer engine. You run on EV until you can't anymore.
I'll point out that Lithium Titanate chemistry reached similar charge rates over a decade ago, proven by Aerovironment and Altairnano with a 5 minute charge. Cost and energy density were the limiting factors back then, both have been improved upon with the Toshiba Scib version of LiTi. I think they may also be working on a Niobium version as well.
Thanks for sharing!
I’ve been saying it for years: swappable battery packs. Self-drives onto mechanics pit, technician drops low battery and puts in new battery pack, car’s good to go, plug up low battery. Faster than a gas station stop and eliminates the aging of batteries by using different batteries constantly with ineffective, aged units simply being taken out of circulation.
remove the technician and make it automated like a carwash.
While a good idea. That would require standardization in layout that won’t happen. The other is making enough for all the cars and enough for each station. Something like that would take easily a decade if enough manufacturing could be set aside.
Always thought that as well
the batteries are worth a lot of money, expect people to dump crap batteries. I don't want to be the sucker to get stuck with a crap battery.
Imagine if you are low on funds and can’t afford a full battery at the monent💀
Focusing on charge times is probably the least important aspect of BEV uptake. 350KW is an ungodly amount of power the average house is unlikely to even hit 10KW normally. I have an 80 amp 240V connection to the grid so 19.2KW. Most medium factories here usually have a 100-200 amp 240V 3 phase service so 144KW at the most. Having such high peak power draw would require way more grid infastructure than limiting most chargers to around 100KW which is still a shitload. Realistically I'd want a 5-10KW charger at home and better energy density per weight.
in fact, am i the only one who feel uneasy putting that much electrical power in the hands of common people? like, half a megawatt, handled by people with no training! if this stuff gets damaged or something happens, you won't survive the event... i understand there will be security measures and stuff, but still these chargers would need to be adequately maintained, updated, repaired, and not tampered with
So, I'll contradict this a little bit. If the average household has an electric dryer and electric range, those two appliances alone will just about hit 10kW. Add in a fridge/ freezer combo, plus freezer in the garage, TVs, computers, hot water heater (not even including tankless which are commonly over 25kW), washer, etc., and you'll see peaks well over 20-25kW. Now, that being said, just because there would be stations you can go to where you can fast charge your vehicle on the go, doesn't mean that you need to have that level of capability at your house, as you typically won't be constrained by time. If you can use a 12kW charger (50A 240V), you could still charge a Ford Lightning with it's 131kW extended range battery in ~13 hours, so you can realistically still use a reasonable sized charger at home, while also allowing for quick charging on the go. Without quick charging, this tech will never truly take off. Just my two cents.
@@bradendude1414 It might be different in the US, but here in Europe 16, 20 and 24 is the 3 typical ranges of amperage for a private home, that is about 11kW, 14KW and 17kW. I currently have 11kW, that works fine as long as i don´t use the electric heat.
Its cost extra money every month to have more power. What have started to become more and more common is that there is breakers that break a other line when its over stressed. So for example when the range is at full power the dryer, washer and washing machine is automatically turned of. Most modern equipment is made to handle this. For instance at least my washer, if i pull the plugg, and put it back in, it just keeps washing where it was when i pulled the plug.
Of casuse this can be done on the charger as well, but the charger would probobly be last in line, and if the charger is 3-phase, it get complicated
I dunno. I've always fancied arc welding my Tesla to the garage.
@@luvincste How is this a concern? The 250kW-350kW chargers are currently handled safely just fine.
The main problem here in Germany (mostly in big cities) is the space.
Everything is so densely built, that many don't even get a parking spot near their own house.
And we have so little charging stations around the city. In my area there is only one charging station that's around 1km away... So around a few hundred people per charging station.
The day only has 24 hours. So realistically most charge around in the early morning before work or in the evening. So it's one charging station for hundreds of potential EVs divided over only a few hours each day....
Furthermore our energy infrastructure can't really handle more charging stations that would definitely be needed. It had to be all redone properly, but that would be wayyy too expensive
Yea, the infrastructure definitely needs help. I think a big improvement will be workplaces putting 110V plugs at each of their parking spots. That’ll at least cut out the need for a charge to get to and from work every day.
I'm done with electric cars, I went back to gasoline because of all hassle associated with electric cars and trucks ! No more for me , I've learned my lesson and my " ELECTRIC CAR ANXIETY SYNDROME IS GONE " ... Happy days are here again !!
If this video proves anything at all, it's that battery tech has so many areas that they can just keep improving on :) Fantastic tech, and very promising for a lot of industries.
Yea, it’s really crazy to see how many different improvements are currently being worked on. Really makes me wonder what types of vehicles will be hitting the market in 10+ years.
If I earned 1€ every time there's a breakthrough that will allow your car to charge in minutes... I would be a thousandier by now.
By the way my EV charges in 18 minutes on a 350kW point. It's quicker than I can order and consume my hotdog.
What car?
@@shithead4767 He is full of shit like most of the children dreaming here....
I've been shouting from the roof tops that the range of an EV is not as important as the charging speed. Once you get above 300 miles of range, that's enough for 99% of users. But when it takes 30 minutes at a fast charger and up to 10 hours on a slow charger to refill that battery, that's when people freak out and want something with 600 miles. They don't really want 600 miles, they want faster charging.
In your critique of batteries did you mention a lot of the stops at gas stations are eliminated due to the slow overnight charging at one's house. So you may be waiting an extra 15 min at the gas station to charge but one is not having to even stop at a gas station 2 to 3 times a month. This seems to actually be less waiting time overall at gas stations. But more importantly less distractions and waiting and prior planning of time.
The "charging takes too long" argument is 95% overcome by explaining that you just charge while you sleep. It's only an issue if you travel long distances regularly.
Exactly. When people find out that I live in an apartment with no charging, but own an EV they often ask how it works.
Then I explain to them that there’s three different chargers within .5 miles so I just setup the car Saturday morning and then walk home and live my life while it charges. Really not a problem and itll just get easier as the infrastructure is more built out.
Not really.
@@SaveMoneySavethePlanet Its just learning to live and drive slightly differently. Top up at every opportunity, even if its 15 mins.
Unless you travel long distance.
And before you say average use of an EV is short distance, let it be known that in some countries, cars aren't cheap and people do travel long distances from time to time. So when cars are expensive, you have to consider this in the equation, which makes electric cars a no go.
@@quiksilver87 Do you realise how long it takes to drive 400 miles and you can't or won't stop for more that a few minutes. 🤦♂️
My issue with electric vehicles is that they’re so freaking heavy. Makes 2020’s combustion-powered cars look light as a feather in comparison, and those already tend to be way heavier than cars from a few decades before.
Great to see such varied R&D progress on battery technology. But having driven a Tesla for the last six years don’t let the premise of range anxiety put you off buying. On the occasional long journeys in my experience the car is ready to go way before we have have been to the toilet then bought and finished food. Even without food, the break from driving with a little stroll, message catch up and rest changes the journey experience. Really loving my EV, so many things are way better and cheaper that the range trade off over ICE is nothing, just a small habit adjustment . Having a EV must be like how people felt getting the model T Ford after having a horse.
Half niobium and half silicon, switch the charge rate for each type, then get benefits of both fast charge followed by a deep charge. Also protects the silicon batteries more as they can put their charge through buffered by the niobium cells and promote more overall power storage than just niobium cells alone.
I always looked at the charging of an EV as a major advantage. Imagine every morning getting up and some one has topped off your gas tank of your car. AND for pennies on the dollar. Night time rates are lower for power. If you have solar on the house even better for the net gain. Only time I ever drove more than 200 miles in one day is when I was on a road trip to another state. What is the hurry then? Destination / Journey cliche'.
If a car's lifetime increases then it will make an EV much more interesting for customers, even if the total range lowers. It would be nice if companies would allow their customers to choose for themselves which type of battery to use
battery life is a huge factor when expected battery replacement cost is approaching half the cost of a new car.
Oh cool! Love the fact those animations are getting used - creative commons for the win. Great video man.
It's not just about range. It's about sufficient charging stations to pull in when I need to and charge while grabbing a bit to eat. It's going to take a lot more than a single charging station at each intersection to handle the real load when the number of EVs really increases.
Due to my particular circumstances* I didn't need a lot of range, so I took a chance on a used EV as my first (and current) electric car, a 2016 Kia Soul EV+, and have not regretted it. As new it gets about 93 miles of EPA range (just over 100 miles if you drive nice), but since it's used it gets about 85 miles on mixed driving. Anyway, within one week of actually using it to go to and from work, etc that range anxiety disappeared. I ran out of battery only one time and that was because a charger failed and I was not able to get the charge I needed to get to the next charger (missed it by less than 1 mile).
* I work only about 10 miles from where I live and the maximum I drive is no more than about 50 miles in one stretch.
Awesome. I also got a used EV (bolt) and have a similar situation. The first time I do a new route I’ll feel fairly anxious, but after that there’s no more range anxiety.
It’ll definitely just disappear as more people experience owning and EV and as the infrastructure is built out.
@@SaveMoneySavethePlanet Before I got the car I did a TON of research, looking for the used EV that would be the right one _for me_ as each person's needs are unique. I was worried that there were no DC charging stations near me and that 94 miles of range would get me in trouble. But, first I found out that there actually _were_ DC fast charging stations near my house but, unlike gas stations, they are usually hidden in out-of-the-way locations since not a lot of infrastructure is even needed to build them. In fact I found, to my surprise, that there were at least a dozen of them within 5 miles of my house that I never knew about even though I've lived here for about 20 years!
Second, I realized that _most_ of the time I'd be driving less than 50 miles per day (like most people!) and in fact usually drive half that distance on a daily basis. And to add a third point, the vast majority of the time I actually charge at home which is SUPER convenient and is one of the top reasons I will never go back to gas. I have a garage so it is the best case scenario for that and I can understand how the charging process will be a bit different for people who live in an apartment or a house without a garage, etc. _Those_ are the edge-cases we need to accommodate to get everyone into an EV. Really fast DC charging will help get us there.
With the current EV's most people's normal driving habits can be handled by a home charger. The "range anxiety" comes from longer trips where you need to recharge outside of the home environment. In many places outside of major metro area, there is not the infrastructure unless you drive a Tesla. Not everyone driving electric has a Tesla and it gets old saying the infrastructure is there but then they say they have a tesla. For this to work, it has to work for all manufacturers. Some, like me, can afford an ICE and an electric but again for this to work, it can't be having both. It has to be having electric only and the infrastructure is not there yet.
@@stboden True. I think for the average person to accept EVs, there needs to be an EV DC fast charging station at least every 30-50 miles and the lowest EV range should be no less than about 200-250 miles. If EVs can charge in under 10-15 minutes then range is not as important (as long as the charging infrastructure is there). One of the smartest things Tesla did from the beginning was realize that quick charging stations would be extremely important so they really emphasized building out their Superchargers starting from day one (well, after the Roadster anyways). Others are still trying to catch up to this day.
It's amazing to see all this battery technology moving foward with new news every week of some innovation which is being made. In 5-10 years we will have amazing battery tech
Yea. It really does feel like the tech is moving at an astounding pace!
"Yup, in 10 years all vehicles will be able to be charged at home in five minutes for five dollars and go 500 miles." Ah, isn't it nostalgic! I remember the 1970's well!
Here is my take on range anxiety is where its road trips, if your on a road trip and the new cells have a bms in the car and take a "standard" plug having a 20min recharge is fine, its when you wake up in the morning and you realize you forgot to plug in or you live in a apartment building is where people want a charge to full in less then 10min and they dont want or cant wait. But if you can cram 50-60 miles of power in in that 5min range thats more to reasonable for getting you 30miles to work and to a charger if you cant have one at home
I work in the trades, often for wealthier people. In this case, they are the first adopters for electric cars. Generally they commute, and then charge their car at night, where the amount of time it takes to charge doesn't matter at all, and so these stresses on the batteries are relatively moot. This isn't the use case for everyone mind you, and fast charging does need to be solved, but I myself would love an EV, and do admit 99% of the time, it would end up charging slowly over the evening. If I have to do a fast charger on a highway for a journey, well... one or two fast charges aren't going to mess up the cells that badly. It's a degenerative problem, not a direct damage problem.
The problem with EV range is I think more of an issue with a lack of infrastructure. There’s a decent amount around high density population but beyond an hour or so from those centers the amount drops off substantially, and there’s plenty of interstate routes that lack them. I’m confident an EV is a great vehicle when traveling up or down either coast but outside of that, I wouldn’t want to have an EV.
Tesla has a pretty good infrastructure.
Yeah we are nowhere near the place we need to be to properly replace Gas. That being said, it really is dependent on certain conditions from person to person.
…yet. With five companies building roadside facilities and numerous home charger manufacturers, give it a couple of years and people will choose the $12 fill up over $60 gasoline.
Tesla's Supercharger network is the gold standard.
Yes that's true, yet, this argument is mainly relevant when doing long distances, most people don't drive over 40 miles a day, basically their commute and daily activities. This could be recharged overnight for most users. Of course AC type 2 and getting an evse is what most will need if they can have one. I understand everyone have different situations, just saying most people have the infracstructure for it already.
Whilst range anxiety is less of a concern with Tesla's, for non Tesla's it's crappy infrastructure anxiety - ie will they be working when I arrive?
Which apps or pre registered fobs do I need etc
Having all the apps isn't bad. For me and my electric non tesla, will the charger be working? Is my biggest worry when going to a charger.
I’ve had my occaisional issues with CCS DCFC, but no show stoppers so far.
I am looking forward to when Tesla makes their chargers CCS compatible though simply because it’ll be a huge boost to our charging infrastructure for all new EV owners.
I think it's great that ideas for better batteries are coming along so rapidly and in so many different forms by so many companies.
I like the idea of being able to charge cars quickly. However I think we should change that. Let's enjoy the 30minutes+ it takes to charge our cars. Visit the area you're in, walk into a nearby shop, enjoy part of a trail, while it charges. If the car gets 300+ miles on a charge, don't need to charge too often either.
I dont' get 'range anxiety'. You charge at home. Unless you plan on making frequent road trips, it is a total and complete non-issue.
Not everyone has a garage to install a charger in.
Even when I couldn’t charge at home I could charge everywhere else: work, gym, store, library, park,… I could still recharge every day. Recharging at home is just the best option not the only option.
It’s like when you watch home buying shows on HGTV and the person keeps turning down houses because they “can’t host Thanksgiving dinner in the living room.”
@@H0kies95 true, but that is still an infrastructure issue rather than a battery one. I don’t have charging in my apartment, but I still own an EV because the infrastructure enables me to. I get a wall plug 3/5 days at work and then I go hook up to an L2 on Saturdays for several hours in order to get back up to 100%.
@@H0kies95 You don't have power in your home? Then maybe that should be a priority over wondering what type of car to buy.
Don't need a garage to charge a car in, it is just the most convenient.
Thank you for this video. I did a little (very little) research on line to determine where most niobium is mined. I found out that Brazil and Canada are the main producers (with Brazil producing 12 times as much material from the source minerals, Columbite--nearly 89,000 tons, versus just under 7,000 tons in Canada).
The element is also used in other critical technologies, so prices may start to rise quickly if it does prove to be the "magic bullet" that it would seem to be for the development of fast-charging batteries.
Most of the technology of niobium products comes from Brazil, we have plenty of the material here and we are developing aplications for it with science so we can benefit from It. We are already going to test a niobium battery run bus in Rio de Janeiro soon with CBMM and Volkswagen Brasil technology, but instead the video talks about an irrelevant small ass US company, as always portraying themselfs as the technology owners.
As an EV driver, I can see an enormous benefit to adopting battery chemistry capable of significant faster charging rates even before a significantly faster Rapid/Ultra Charger infrastructure is rolled out. The frustrating aspect of Rapid DC Charging with current lithium-based tech is the drastic reduction in charge rate as the current tech cells charge session progresses and internal resistance and tempiture rises. If cell tech allows for significantly theoretical rates than current battery tech and infrastructure can deliver, then when an EV is hooked up to a 150 kW or 350 kW DC Charger maybe it could maintain that rate throughout the Rapid charge session throughput at public charging sites!
Been driving an ioniq for the last 10 months. Charging over a regular plug takes very long , but now that in moved in to a house with a car charger installed it takes about 4-5 hours for a full charge. It’s much easier to deal with it.
As someone who is about to start electrical engineering in a few months, your videos are very exciting and motivational! It really makes me want to work on all of the cool topics you talk about
Yes, learn to read course material from your sponsors, and sound smart doing it, you will be a fine engineer like him.
Honestly this tech can charge faster with our current infrastructure. It would prolong the charge curve to be more flat over time instead of taper off like current generation batteries in Evs
Excellent point you bring up. This could help to flatten the charging curve, which would speed things up.
I can't speak for other countries but the biggest issue with chargers in the UK isn't the speed, it's availability and crucially reliability. It's very common to arrive at a DC charger to find it faulty or in use. This brings in uncertainty to long journeys which then causes range anxiety. Sure it would be awesome if we could recharge in a few mins, but current speeds are fine so long as the chargers are available and working. Obviously I exclude Tesla from this as their charging network is extremely reliable.
A lot of discussion here about the chargers not being powerful enough. I have over 20 x 350kW chargers within 10 miles of my house, but I think the maximum any car can take is 270kW, very briefly. A better battery will have a better charging curve, it will stay charging faster for longer. I’m disappointed that people are still talking peak charging speed, rather than time based charging volume.
Great video. Do you also keep a running comparison of all the battery tech that's out there, so that we can gauge where this tech is compared to silicon, graphene, and other tech developments? It seems they are all neck and neck - leapfrogging with differences that include: maturity (concept/prototype/limited production/mass production), energy density, charging time, battery recharge life, etc.
This is a bit of a side issue but as I've been looking into putting solar panels on my house, I realize I kind of fall into the area where solar panels may not be feasible for me. However, as I am also looking to replace my oil furnace with a new heat pump system (that works down to -15 degrees) and my next car purchase will be electric, it's dawning on me that solar collectors may just well become very feasible for the average homeowner and that growth of the solar industry may be even greater when everyone starts to realize this.
solar is very climate dependent as to feasibility.
Locally, the average we'd have to worry about is 3 days of consecutive cloud cover, with 320+ average sunny days a year. At near 30 deg latitude, we get good sun exposure even in winter. One to two days a year needing to clear snow cover from panels in a bad year.
Go north to 40 deg latitude and you have much poorer solar conditions for a large portion of the year. (ignoring cloud cover and snow covering panels effects)
Seattle, WA would be a dismal failure for solar power at 47 deg latitude and with a high percentage of cloudy days.
While "on average" solar might become feasible... there are areas where it may never be the best choice in renewable energy.
I like the idea of collecting and producing your own energy and I like this idea. It just makes me wonder if solar panels can really supply the amount of electricity I need if I were to have an electric car.
@@c1a2t3a4p5i6l7l8a9r depends on where you are.
And how much you want to spend on panels.
We are approaching $1.00 a watt panel rating price. Appx 10 watts a sq ft is easy. 20 watts a sq ft is more expensive.
Watts needed depends on your car and distance to be driven and driving habits.
There are ways to calculate all of this.
@@c1a2t3a4p5i6l7l8a9r Yes, I wonder about that too. I wish panels were at least 30% efficient vs the current 22% average. If they were 30% efficient, I'd have no hesitation in buying them.
@@fhuber7507 Yes. Climate-wise, I'm in a good area for getting plenty of sun. The problem for me is that I can't justify paying a lot for a system when my electric bill averages only around $75 a month. The payoff period would take a long time. However, again, I slowly came to realize that if I add a new heat pump and an EV or two, that changes the payoff equation quite a bit.
We don't need ultra-fast charging at every charging point. When charging in a city, you're never gonna wait next to the charger, spinning your thumbs. Modern (2020+) EVs don't run out of range without going on highways/expressways. That's where we need ultra-fast charging.
EV’s have no real range issues if you have the ability to charge them at home, Issues only become apparent if your driving long distance staying at a hotel or maybe going to a cabin/property. Unless you’re going to be doing those things the range of an EV will never really become a problem as long as it gets you through an ordinary day such as going to work going home maybe leaving to grab something to eat then you go home and charge it at home. Another issue is if you don’t have a way to charge it at home because that leaves you with having to plan around charging stations.
I feel like my BMW I3 2015 battery didn't change much since i got it 3.5 years ago. It got probably around 1200 battery cycles total. I know there's a buffer over the 100% but i can still drive the same range as when i got it so it's doing great!
Is that battery liquid cooled? I know a huge part of why I went with the Bolt EV was because the data is coming out that liquid cooled batteries last for more cycles than passively cooled ones like in the leaf.
The buffer of course helps as well like you mentioned.
@@SaveMoneySavethePlanet i'm not sure but i think i read somewhere it had some kind of oil or something for the cooling. I also wonder how low temperatures like -15c impacts the battery since it's a natural cooling a good part of the year.
@@Dindonmasker no idea, but I’m assuming the fact that so many Leaf cars (which have passive cooling) end up with atrocious range after a couple of years means that it doesn’t have enough of an effect.
Hello Matt great video! Have you done any videos on the benefits LFP batteries and sodium batteries and how they could drive battery costs down even faster? Chinese EV companies rely on LFP batteries which make EVs on par in price with ICE vehicles and have lead EV purchases to take off in China.
LFP batteries are only driving costs down for the vehicles that offer them. Nobody is using sodium batteries in EVs yet. So it's only speculation now. It may not be a good idea for many markets anyway...potentially good in very heavy traffic areas where people don't need range and power. They have low energy density and bad cycle life
If you take into account the 80% upper limit to maintain lifespan, of Li Ion batteries, heat stability, longevity of LFP, LFP batteries are perfect for vehicles.
The biggest problem with this problem is it is more of a perception problem than a real world problem. I had huge range anxiety before I bought my Tesla. I specifically bought the LR model 3 because I wanted to have as much range as possible. After actually owning one though, I have less concern over my EV than I ever did with an ICE car. I never even bother looking at the range. And I just plug it into the wall when I get home. In a standard 110 outlet. It just charges overnight and usually charges MORE than I actually use during the day.
IMHO for 90% of people 90% of the time existing EVs have plenty or range and charge plenty fast enough. The only time it really becomes an issue is when going on a trip but those aren't things we do every day and when that happens I know there will always be superchargers I can hit up and when on a roadtrip taking a longer break to charge is actually a good thing IMHO.
The other thing I really point out when people ask me the "how long does it to to charge though?" is they should stop thinking about how most people treat gas where you wait until its nearly empty and then fill it up. If you look at how long it takes to charge from 0 to 100% yeah it takes a while. But to go from 20% to 60%? Not long at all at a super charger.
Wow, great news. This still doesn’t raise EV collision environmental damage from damaged battery elements spilling. It also raises the fire fighters response (Hazmat Units) are required to handle EV accidents. Costs are extremely high per response. More EV’s require more fire fighting training. Todays small city/county fire departments don’t have Hazmat units.
So I have the Ford Mach-e GT and I have recently moved and I have had to make 3 trips around 1100 mile each trip. the first trip i did have some range anxiety, but for the last two trips I had no worries at all, I think that was mainly do to the fact that there was a DC fast charger every 90-150 miles so I new that if I charged to 80% I wouldn't have any problems. To me I don't mind the wait it was anywhere from 15 mins to 45 mins depending on rather I skipped a charger or not. during that time I would take a nap, walk my dog, eat, etc. and then I would be ready to drive again, the drive actually seemed less stressful than driving an ICE car.
This is very similar to my experience. Range anxiety when I first bought the car and first did a couple long trips…but I eventually realized that the infrastructure is way more important than the battery.
Similar experience here in my Model 3 LR; in 2018 my first trip involved a lot of pre-planning. In part, it was because here in Canada the Tesla supercharger network was still in its infancy. Nowadays, I can make trips like that with no planning whatsoever. The only time range is even in my consciousness is when the weather is exceptionally blizzardy and we are chewing up power (heating, road/wind resistance, etc). The other thing is everyone seems so concerned about these road trips, but for the vast vast majority of folks a road trip is a once/twice per year event. Most of the time, it's trips shorter than 400km, or commutes of under 100km. For that, starting every day with a "full" battery (80% for the smart folks who want to maximize their battery's health), is more than enough!
@@MichaelIreland I found so far, that if I have to use the heater it sucks up the range like crazy, but if i use the a/c set to 70-68 F degrees it doesn't effect the range as much, now that may change as it gets closer to the hotter months.
@@michaelmartin8692 yeah, the A/C in mine uses much less power than heat. If I recall correctly, mine is rated to use 150 WH per kilometre at 100km/h under normal conditions. In the summer, with A/C (even at 30C outside and full sun), it often still uses less than 140 WH/km. In the winter, it's not unusual to use up to 250 WH/km (on the exact same road/route).
@@MichaelIreland how did you get those figures? did Tesla provided them or did you find them on a forum? i'm curious what mine uses.
One less often talked about factor in charging speed that I'd argue is the most important is overall vehicle efficiency (not charging efficiency) since the metric that really matters to EVs is miles-charged/hour, not kilowatts. If you have a more efficient vehicle then each kWh you charge gets you more range. It doesn't matter if a vehicle can charge at 500kW instead of 300kW if it's only 50% efficient at using those kWh's versus a vehicle that charges at 300kW and is 90% efficient.
You can charge faster just by having more batteries to accept the charge, but that extra weight starts to hurt your vehicle efficiency very quickly. A lighter vehicle will be more efficient with its energy and can charge at a higher miles/hour even if it's charging at a lower kW. Some companies already are focusing on higher efficiency and lighter weight in their vehicles to increase "charging" speed and range, whereas others are just loading way more batteries into their vehicles to meet range targets, tanking efficiency and miles-charged rates even though they technically may charge as fast or faster when measured in kW.
but these are unrelated aspects.
Vehicle efficiency, battery efficiency and charge rate are separate. If you have an efficient power train - adding a better battery will keep the efficiency while improving other aspects like charge speed. So improving both is important.
I believe vehicle efficiency has reached or almost reached it's peak. Motors are close to 100% efficient. Only thing that can improve efficiency now, relates to batteries also, and that is weight.
@@Dghervas29 its true motors are already very efficient, but that's only part of the equation. Battery weight is a factor, but you also have to consider thermal management & insulation (Tesla's heatpump and octovalve effectively recycles heat between the batteries, motors, and cabin to minimize waste heat/cool and energy consumption), aerodynamics, and the weight of the frame/body (aluminum casting could really bring down the weight, along with a structural battery pack). So far only Tesla and Jaguar have heatpumps, and only Tesla has anything like the octovalve.
@@graysonsmith7031 Overall efficiency is greatly influenced by all of these factors. Aptera is really the only company addressing all the factors in a systematic way, and they will end up 3 or 4 times more efficient in miles per watt hour than even the best Tesla. The combination of better motor efficiency, lighter weight, better body thermal insulation, and better aerodynamics all contribute to the performance.
@@n.brucenelson5920 I forgot about Aptera, but in my defense it's not the car that most people will want to drive around their kids in.
Even if you could just maintain the 250kw charge rate you can go 20-80% in your long range model 3 in just under 12 minutes, which is about 170 miles of real world range or about 2.5 hours of highway driving.
Batteries for cars are like batteries for lawnmowers. It’s not a better solution. It’s the same paradigm.
9:40 So if the intercalation occurs without a chemical phase change (similar to a capacitor), what does that mean for the self discharge rate of battery cells using this anode? Is it also similar to the self discharge rate of capacitors? If so, that would make these batteries less desirable for EVs outside of occasional use range extenders.
Could you please explain a bit more?
@@ayoopopoola439 No, but Battery Streak should be able to. I tried to link to a Battery University explanation of self discharge rates, but it looks like it was blocked. I recommend you read that to better understand self discharge and how that could limit a battery's usefulness for EVs.
🤢🤮Dan Alpern sounds so shady🤢🤮
I lost him the moment he mentioned McKinsey for its report 🤢🤮 McKinsey has extremely low moral standard when it comes to with whom they work & produce consulting reports.
Sorry, but this Battery Streak Niobia magic seems just another Nikola-type scam to me🤢🤮
@@ayoopopoola439 with a capacitor it will discharge in one big rush if its not deliberately slowed down, that's a very simple view.
Our battery technology is shelf-stable, losing only 10 mV after 100 hours at 25*C, and then stable for the next 300 hours.
5 years max before we have available batteries that can charge in minutes. I’m personally betting on Tesla Silicon, but the Niobia sounds promising as well.
Ok lets live in magic land where i can charge my car in a minute. Does our electric network support that power draw also? Right now no it would just melt down. That means all our landlines must be changed for 10x power draw. Also our power network would need some huge quick release power reserves that are not here right now. You might have a magic car but you cannot use it until all our power management/storage and production is massively owerhauled. That will not happen in 5 years. Maybe in 50 but not sooner.
@@KK-xz4rk I don't think the problem is as dire as you suggest. The vast majority of charging is still going to be done at home, overnight, when other power draws are low, using relatively modest level 2 charging. Certainly the grid needs updating, but that would be true in any case.
@@jamesowens7176 So the possibility to charge in minutes will be developed but not used? Why then car manufacturers would even develop fast charging then? Far better idea would be precharged battery packs in recharge stations. You just lift old ones out to charging and lift full ones into your car. Your stop is same length as filling with gas and it is doable with technology that we have already.
@@KK-xz4rk There are companies like Nio already doing this, but what I was getting at was that most charging isn't fast-charging anyway. The main point of the fast-charging is to enable long-distance travel for those times when folks need it. We in America tend to buy a vehicle expecting it to be useful in every scenario (why there are so many people commuting to work in a pickup - because they might need to haul something a couple times a year). So we want a car that can run around town, but we also want to take it on summer vacation, or to visit family on the holidays, or even just to for a Sunday drive in the mountains. That's the use case for fast-charging. Battery swap might fill this niche too, but I think the infrastructure for charging alone would be simpler than building a mass number of swap stations.
I stopped having so called range anxiety after owning and driving my EV, and learned in life is that you need to PLAN ahead like going on Vacation if the trip is outside of everyday driving. If I drive 100km /day and my range is 200km then I can either charge every other day or trickle charge at night when it's off peak hours, no biggy. Ease foot pedal on acceleration, let it glide when going down hill to regen is now a habit. Many drivers drive Hybrids, thats very simular but they have Gas as a backup. Hope soon everyone can enjoy driving without any worries
Hey Matt, what reason can you imagine why they simply don't do a car that you can switch the battery very quickly? you can go in a deposit, remove you empty battery and get a new one fully charged. and the empty batteries can be charged up offline in a cool environment to prevent degradation.
What makes me laugh is, it is best to take a 20 - 30 min break after driving for 2 - 3 hrs so use it for a 'drop off & refill' and stop stressing about a few minutes!
Yes, often what people think they want turns out bad for them. It seems to me that currently people want to drive 100 mph until they have an accident or fall asleep at the wheel. This is a societal problem. People want technology to solve all their problems. Dave D, your less stressed attitude will help you live longer and happier.
I don't need to take a break after 2 - 3 hrs because on such distances I usually take the train
If I have a 10 hour drive that I have to add 20 min every 2 hours it’s going to be a 12 hour drive or more. Doesn’t sound fun.
20 minute break every 3 hours might be a good idea if you're old. I've never done it in 35 years of driving though.
@@TonyRule Yes, a good example of how prevalent is the rush-rush attitude of Americans. Me too. I just like that too. I'm not sure how healthy it is.
Again another interesting piece, Matt! Really promising technology with this niobium battery! ⚡🔋
Your electrical engineering puns are the best :)
This became really interesting when you said increasing battery temperature from 25c to 60 c. Where I live in Australia initial start temperature in summertime would be minimum of 35c. Charging would exceed 60 c on a regular basis. Also have minimum highway runs of 150 km round trip to nearest town centre, 400 km round trip to a major population centre. ( above 50,000 people). 2 charging facilities only.
would be convenient then to have a battery that works best at 70°C. hydrogen cells might be a solution, those generate electricity in cars, for example the toyota mirai has a hydrogen fuel cell.
I have one of the slower charging EVs on the market. A Bolt. That said, 95% of its use is my commute. 120 miles a day. And I have L2 charging at home (and at work, tho that wasn't available when I bought it). And of course, the Bolt works great for that commute. I plug in when I get to work. I plug in when I get home. Lots of time saved over stopping at gas stations when I had my ICE car.
That said, yes it is a slower fast charging EV. We've taken it on a few longer trips tho, and found that it doesn't bother us.
The main trip we do is to visit my family down south. Which is about 300 miles one way. But it works out great for us.
We start with a full charge from home of course. We stop once on the way down. That stop is about 30 minutes charging, but it's lunch time and the location has several eating options nearby. It's the same location we usually stop for food when we drive the ICE car. So it doesn't actually add any time for us on that leg of the trip.
When we arrive, we usually stay at a hotel that is really close to an L2 charger. So I can charge the car while we are there. (We are going again this weekend and this time are staying at a hotel with an L2 charger).
Then we leave with a full charge and hit the same spot to charge on the way home, again charging while eating.
So, while it does take a fair amount longer to charge (the Bolt EV is a slow fast charging EV), it ends up taking us the same amount of time as it would if we took the ICE.
Now, that is NOT the case for everyone and it wouldn't be for us in different situations.
So, just like every ICE vehicle isn't right for every person in every situation (A huge vehicle wouldn't fit in my garage!!), not every EV is right for every person. If we needed to do a lot more fast charging, the Bolt wouldn't be the right car for us.
That said we love it and it is perfect for us.
And faster charging is available in other cars, and even faster is coming... So, all good news!
(And if your situation means an EV won't work for you, that's fine too... Not all cars for all situations..)
*fist bump* for a fellow Bolt owner who loves their car!
I was so nervous about so many potential issues when I bought my car, but they really haven’t come to fruition at all! Can’t wait for more people to catch on to the wave of new tech!
And like you said, we have the slowest version of this tech!
Excellent response.
300million cars in USA and
140million homes.
365 daily trips
Daily top up from your mini fuel ⛽ bowser.
People need the numbers.
500mile range now if needed.
Copy and paste your input to others your helping many see the near future.
I have an MG ZS EV with a range of 256 km. Sure, I would like a longer range car but as it is I only charge it once a week overnight on a standard wall plug. If my wife and I need to travel we have an old petrol car. In Australia, the government has just halved the petrol excise which means I am paying tax at six times the rate of a petrol car.
@@FalkinerTim 6 times ??
@@stephenbrickwood1602 Prior to the halving of the petrol excise we were getting slugged with almost three times the rate of the petrol excise. The energy in a litre of petrol is 9.1 kwh. Thus, a litre equivalent of electricity is 9.1 kwh. If we take a typical EV range figure of, say, 18.2 kwh per 100 km we use 9.1 kwh i.e. one litre petrol equivalent per 50 km. At 2.5 cents per kilometre tax we pay $1.25 every 50km. That is, we are paying tax of $1.25 per litre; 197% more than the petrol excise of 42.7 cents. Now that the petrol excise has been halved, we are paying six times the rate.
Charge time and availability has and will always be the main discouraging factor, not range. Range can be solved in many ways, but what most people fear is being stuck somewhere without easy access to charging, and whatever charging is accessible, is going to be at minimum 30-60 minute expense or more.
The reason gas cars are still favorable in that regard, is that you can simply take journeys without having to plan for every little intricacy, error, potential hazard like traffic, etc. You just go. And if you are out of range, you find somewhere nearby and refill at no more than 5 minutes of wait time.
Often when you're driving, you're at some kind of timed schedule. Maybe you're going to do some practical things, get your kids, surprise need for certain supplies, an unplanned visit to someone, etc. It's the versatility that people have come to know and expect from their personal mobility. And without access to easy quick charging, this practicality suffers a major penalty.
Are you going to stop by your parents' place for a spur-of-the-moment dinner, if it means you might risk having to wait an hour for your car to charge to get you there and back? No. You'd want to simply count that time expense as a minor addition to the travel time itself, not as a potential 100% surplus of inconvenience or more.
People own their own personal transportation vehicles because in contrast to public transport, it allows them flexibility and adaptibility at any point no matter what, and at exactly their own tempo without need for pre planning. That's what fast charging offers. That's why long range is less of an issue, because long range offers usecases where a high degree of pre planning is often involved in the first place anyways. If you're travelling 500+ miles, you're likely to have a long stop for eating along the way, you can combine time expenses so they cover each other and you won't feel the impact of either in isolation. But with shorter and unplanned trips (the ones we most often make use of on a daily basis) this is no longer viable for most people. You're not gonna stop to eat on your way to work. You're not gonna just plan for 30-60 minutes of downtime during your errands. So you're often left charging at home or at work, and inevitably when a situation arises where those options are no longer sufficient, that's when it truly sucks to have an EV. THAT is the real issue. Range is not. Range can be pre planned around. Adaptive charging options can't.
On eof the solution is to mount a high efficiency pv on the roof, Burnet and boots. I think it will definitely be of help
Imagine you just got a call. A loved one is on their death bed. But they live one state over. An 8 hour drive. About 500 miles. But you just got off work and got home. Your car is at 50%. You leave and go as far as you can, you drive fast. finding a supercharger you've only made it 150 miles. Now you're stuck for 30 minutes. You go again. But this time you can only make it 100 miles because you can't charge to full. Another 30 minutes. Another 100 miles. Another 30 minutes. Another 100 miles. Another 30 minutes. And finally. 10 hours later you arrive at their side. And you're minutes too late.
@@t_c5266 Agreed. EVs are not practical as a primary, do-everything vehicle, for the U.S. For specific use cases, i.e. suburban homeowner second vehicle, they work fine.
@@asajayunknown6290 I agree on the second vehicle deal. Useful to be a daily driver. And the truck ones are even further away because towing shortens their range to maybe 30%. And trucks are the vehicle that drives the furthest due to needing them for a lot of vacation purposes
What’s going to happen when there a many more ev’s and less gas stations and more ev charging stations?
One huge barrier to rolling out DCFC in large capacities is the "demand fee" charged by the electric companies. This is based on the max kW used and would require ev charging fees well in excess of gasoline just to break even.
It's not charge times that are the big deal-breaker, it's the overall lack of infrastructure. If you want to go sightseeing in your EV, you're effectively limited to the destinations that are both in range and are served by EV fast-chargers. Otherwise, you're stuck spending the night at a motel while your EV trickle-charges.
Then there's the incredibly short-sighted lack of standardization among EVs and charging stations. Every gas pump will work with every car made for the past 120 some-odd years. The same can't be said for every EV & charger made just over the last 10 years.
I’m hoping the plug issues gets worked out in the next 2 years. Most of the industry has coalesced around CCS as the standard plug and even Tesla has announced that they’re going to provide options for CCS cars to charge at their stations.
If I remember correctly, teslas sold in the future are going to have a Tesla -> CCS adapter sold with them as well.
Is range anxiety grounded in actual facts?
Yes, I’m watching this video while wondering around a mall aimlessly waiting for my car to get enough miles to get home
This! For me it was just a mental block that prevented me from trying out the car. Now I’m like you. I’ve found the infrastructure that works for what I need.
This! For me it was just a mental block that prevented me from trying out the car. Now I’m like you. I’ve found the infrastructure that works for what I need.
It's great to see this kind of innovation, but I am not sure we can keep up with building fast enough the much slower chargers, so from the perspective of the grid I am not seeing to many development supporting this speed and energy demand. Am I wrong?
It is happening, but the pace is the big question. Probably worth a video on the topic.
@@UndecidedMF would love to see that :)
I’d also appreciate if you would include how much of the electricity currently consumed by fossil fuel processing and refining that would be reduced and then redirected towards supporting EVs as their adoption increases. As I understand, the oil refining facilities use a significant portion of our electricity generation capacity.
It makes economic sense to install grid scale battery storage systems where daily peak power demands routinely exceed the grid's peak power capacity, there is more than enough off peak capacity, and customers are willing to pay a premium for peak power.
As of a few years ago, a typical grid scale system would be made up of some number of 20 foot shipping containers containing 4 megawatt, 16 megawatt-hour systems installed at an electrical substation. The capital cost for these continues to drop.
It is likely that in the near future, during fast charging a single Tesla Semi will be able to use one megawatt. A single 20 foot battery could power 4 such chargers at their maximum rate. In practice, chargers aren't in continuous use because the drivers eat and use the restrooms while charging. So in practice, a single battery could support more chargers. Groups of chargers communicate with each other and will limit charge rates as needed to prevent tripping circuit breakers.
It is likely that the massive charging cables for megawatt scale chargers will be mechanically supported so that the driver won't have to lift them. Imagine a cable supported by a robot arm or overhead crane.
@@hamjudo I would be happy if we could do what you suggest, but there are 2 reasons I am not sure it's possible at least in the next few years. One, we don't have enough battery capacity even for cars. Two, if we convert the energy stored in fuel burned in cars to electricity, we will very soon exceed the capacity of the grid today. Just a simple calculation. If we assume that one 50kwh battery is enough for a week driving (it's approximately 50 km/day) that means we need 200 kW per car per month. I'm not sure what is the consumption in us for a household but I'm sure its less than 200 kW per month. Even if we say one car per household we are probably 4-5 times of the energy usage of a household. And this is only the driving part. Heating and cooling will make it even much more demanding for the grid. I'm not sure how long it will take if we can even have enough batteries for discentralise the grid with batteries. But I might be totally off with my calculations.
The problem with charging fast is the power transfer rate. To transfer 100kw in 10 minutes you would need to push over 5000 amps at 120v. At 240v it's still 2500 amps. Even at 1200v it's still 500 amps. The problem is you need a 600+kwh power supply to charge a 100kwh battery in 10 minutes. A home only gets about 48kwh service on the high end. So even if you dedicated the entire service to charging the battery it will take over 2 hours.
C rate isn't the amount of current going to battery, it is a ratio of charge current vs max capacity. 1C rate means it will charge in 1 hour. 2C 30 minutes, 3C 20 minutes, 4C 15 minutes, etc. Importantly, you need to slow down charge as battery charges, especially after 80%. Also, the reason DCFC isn't for residential use isn't voltage, it is power limits. Realistically a 200A service will provide around 45KW maximum, but you want to stay within 80%, and also you need power for the house, A/C, dryer, etc. So perhaps 20KW would be available. Level 2 chargers are around 6KW, this is good for 20-25 miles per hour, more than enough for home charging.
Mr. Matt Ferrell, I love advancements, and the innovation of technology's that improve the things around us, despite the fact that I do not like the distance it sets between the "have's," and the "have not's." This gets even worst when it comes to "DIY.". So, whenever I watch one of your videos I am evaluating it from that "point of view.". Can I make it? Can I fix it? Can I afford to buy it? If the answers are "NO!" Then I am out of the loop, and nobody cares. This means I have to change the game, and wright new rules as to how it's played, because I wouldn't want to count you or anyone else out. For this I am called an "as hole." However, I have to ask the question; are the improvements in today's technology making things better, or more of the same, in that, the damage is still there you just have to know were to find it? That being said; who is the real "as hole?". I haven't done any damage yet, and sincerely strive to make things better. But, I don't think these new "quick charge batteries," are going to solve anything.
As you describe, you need adequate power and cables. Also heat dissipation. I'm skeptical that a hand-held device can replace adequate charging infrastructure. I've owned an EV for over 6 years, and I'm satisfied with slow overnight charging and "fast" charging while I have lunch.
Those cables are coming, i heard of a company prototyping a 3kA cable, watercooled apparently? I'm gonna [citation needed] myself haha.
Glad they are making battery upgrades. There are still huge issues with EV adoption. The cost of the charging infrastructure (as you said 150k for fast charger) and the range issue. Driving a typical suburban commute is very doable now in California, but as soon as you leave the (rich) urban areas charging disappears. Rural Residents drive longer and faster than urban residents and lack the resources to pay for these vehicles. Plus poor weather performance is an big issue for most of the country. Best you can do with most EVs is "cable chains" which don't really cut it when the weather gets bad. Lots of progress, but a lot more to go.
If charge time is reduced to 15 minutes and EVs become very popular, we need way more charge stations across the country than existing fuel pumps. If fueling a passenger vehicle took 15 minutes, you could get stuck in line for hours waiting to get to a pump. Same goes for EVs if everyone owns one.
Hello Matt and greetings from Woonsocket, RI. Have you done a video on calculating your Tesla's battery degradation since ownership? Just wondering. I know lots of folks have done it, but you live in our neck of the woods, it would be interesting to see! Thanks!
I did that after the first year, but haven't done it since. I'd need to crunch some numbers.
@@UndecidedMF Thanks for your reply, Matt! Looking forward to it if you can!
1. Tesla batteries are already well below $100. That's why they are making massive profits, while everyone else is still losing money on EVs.
2. Charging time is not an issue anymore. Yes, it's slower than filling up with gas, but it's very rarely a real issue. In exchange it's far more convenient to charge an EV. And a lot cheaper too.
3. 95% of the time charging time is completely irrelevant, because you are doing it at home. I'm charging my Tesla right now, while watching this video instead of working.
4. Btw. I can watch RUclips and Netflix in my Tesla on a big screen, which makes charging time almost completely irrelevant even if I have to sit in the car.
5. The main issue today is not range, not charging speed, not even price, it's scale. We have good enough batteries at an affordable price, but we will need an absolutely insane amount to replace all gas cars and all fossil fuel power plants.
6. Ultra fast charging has a big issue. It requires huge amount of power, which is not available everywhere. To charge a 100kWh battery in 6 minutes requires 1MW of power. An entire Tesla charging station could use up to 100MW. That's a small power plant.
For storing 100Kwh you may require a large battery bank. Assuming batteries of 200Ah capacity no of batteries required = 100x1000 / 200x12 = 42 batteries.
Coming to the question charging 100Kwh in 10 minutes means Power rating required would be 100 x 60/10 = 600 Kw of Dc power.
Or a couple of windmills and a megapack?
@@ZacLowing
I'm not sure what are you trying to calculate here.
@@transcrobesproject3625
Energy storage helps, but only if average utilization is relatively low.
Wind turbines and solar panels have too low power density. 100MW of continuous power requires like 25-50 million square feet of solar panels, or an even bigger area for wind turbines. Plus like a hundred Megapacks. Long term something like that will happen. It won't be a dedicated farm, but a distributed one in the area, connected by Tesla's VPP software.
@@andrasbiro3007 Um, you're saying that it takes millions of square feet of solar panels/windmills and hundreds of megapacks to charge a single Tesla? Or to power a 24/7 constant stream of Teslas for a supercharger station? It would be ridiculous to say it is going to be easy or cheap to set up but I personally would vote for putting up mini stations with as much distributed generation and storage as possible. Teslas (I have read) can already make suggestions on where to stop and stations could also communicate if they are running low on juice so that is also taken into account. Remember that most of these stations are not going to be at 100% for much of the day. And my understanding is that there are much more appropriate technologies for megapacks (like based on iron, with lower density but much safer and cheaper) that haven't been properly commercialised yet because the economics of lithium haven't made it necessary yet. No?
No gain without pain. The faster you charge the shorter your battery life and the lower the efficiency of charge. It is possible to add 33% to a Model 3 in 10 minutes. If you start your day with 100%, to drive 500 miles it only requires two 15 minute charges which is less than that required for comfort breaks. The main reason for range anxiety is more about charger availability and reliability.
i could dream that when people realize they dont need to necessarily own a car, there will be a big time. We can travel around the world digitally today, with almost all the benefits, without many shortcomings
Agreed. I’m actually hoping to downgrade my family to only one car in the next couple years.
20% less energy density may seem like a lot but I guess if you can do away with the cooling systems needed as well as the weight you are going to increase the range or increase the amount of battery cells you could fit, either way it would remove the 20% loss and also decrease the charge time, the only road block I can see is the charging infrastructure is not there to support it, great to see this type of innovation though and I can see a lot of potential for this tech in the energy grid, also possibly in smart phones, I just seen the Xiaomi Mi 12 Pro has a 120watt charger and can charge from 0-100% in 20 minutes.
Fast Charging to me is always comical.
As an EV owner, I always have a laugh seeing the same vehicle owners sitting at DC Fast Charging stations, filling up their EVs from near empty, to nearly 100%.....ALL the time.
To clarify, by "all the time" I am referring to these owners not wanting to charge at home (I've asked them) as they see it as more convenient to charge at a DCFC. Trouble is (and where the comedy kicks in) is they are doing damage to their battery packs by doing these harsh cycles on them, and then complain that their EV doesn't get the range it used to.
I tried to explain to them that it is no different than if they have an ICE vehicle, and then drove it hard with high RPM. Over time, the engine is going to need to be rebuilt. The wear and tear on an EV will come mostly from the battery pack, when an ICE is everywhere else BUT the fuel tank :P
The ones that make me laugh are the ones that insist on always going to 100% on DCFC.
Saw one on my last road trip. I pulled in to charge starting at 30% and noticed that he was at 75% when I started my charge. Went to grab lunch and noticed he was still there when I got back (90% now).
Then he finally hit 100% and drove away at the same time that I hit 80% and drove away. I’m honestly not even sure that he noticed how much time he was wasting trying to get that last 20%. And that’s disregarding the damage he was doing to his battery!
I don’t see many trying to go over 80 and many, including me, have free plans. My VW is 3 years and there is a Walmart and Lowes there. I can kill 40 minutes easily between shopping or email and RUclips and talking to other owners.
What ki lls me are the people that have the Range anxiety , but do not drive above the range the cars would get. They do not take trips, they do not commute above the rated car range.
I wouldn't say I have range anxiety, but range is something that factors into my decision making process. I pre-ordered a Tesla Cybertruck because I miss my truck (traded it in for a Prius in 2012). One of the big reasons I chose a Cybertruck over other options was range. For me, 500 miles on a charge or 250 miles towing something is the sweet spot. Very seldom do I ever drive more than 500 miles in a day when travelling around America, and as far as I can tell there are EV fast chargers at least every 400 miles pretty much anywhere in the country. The main reason I say 500 miles instead of 400 miles, which is roughly how much my Prius gets when travelling at 80mph on the freeway, is because unknowns happen. I was once stuck in a traffic jam and then diverted due to forest fire and had to backtrack 300 miles; there were no fast charging stations for almost 200 of those miles, leaving very little room for error if I'd been driving an EV instead of a hybrid.
Agree. That is why I also ordered Cyber Trucks. Hoping Elon would make sure non towed range was closer to 600 miles (like he talked), instead of 500. I am used to 600 mile ranges today with various Ford ICE trucks, and large sedans. Range like this comes in very handy for a bunch of reasons.
It’s funny I was just talking to a coworker about this the other day. In the city we live in, Tesla’s aren’t very common. There are maybe 6 or 7.
He had commented that what kills the idea for him is charging time and I told him “y’know that’s actually where the really exciting advancements are right now. Yeah production models take upwards of 45 minutes to an hour or more to reach a full charge, and I fully admit that’s not very convenient, but the stuff that’s just come out of the lab and being upscaled right now is insane. Full charge in 20 minutes, 80% in 15 or less. We’re on the fast track for EV’s to match the convenience of ICE cars in the next 5 years.”
His next question was “huh… wow I didn’t know that. How do they ride though?”
“The only way I can describe it when I was ubered by an old model S was that it didn’t feel like a car accelerating. It felt like pure motion and even that’s kind of underselling it, it was really strange but in a very good way.”
let's just forget about the common weak links here to affordability. Gas is cheap generally speaking without being strong armed by politics.
Lithium is not, as well as during an inflationary period.
Range anxiety to me means that the "expected range" is less than half of what I would call my minimum acceptable range for anything other than a city commuter. If I'm on vacation, I'm often driving for ten hours in a single day to get to my destination. Not to mention that I don't expect there to be an EV charge station in the middle of the woods where I'm camping.
While lithium batteries have exceptional energy density these days, their capacity will still degrade over time, which will further decrease range. Then comes the ultimate end of the battery: where does it go at the end of its life cycle and how does that impact the environment? What's the total impact of battery production and disposal over the entire lifespan of a daily-driven vehicle?
Then there's grid capacity: how much of our energy grid, as aging and overburdened as it is already, would need to be completely replaced or upgraded in order to supply EV charging requirements once they become widely adopted?
Though an EV would make an excellent commuter car for short jaunts within city limits, there is often something even more environmentally friendly in major cities: public transit. (Talking about electric rail systems, trams, etc. Not the poorly-maintained city busses running on diesel)
Nevertheless, every advancement in battery tech is a step in the right direction. Plus, the pollution aspect at the end-user is something that can be managed, rather than something that constantly flows out of the exhaust while in operation.
The reason I have a plug-in hybrid instead of an EV is because I have to drive through Nebraska to get to most of the places I want to road trip to. I could genuinely deal with charging times for road trips if I was 2 or 3 states west 😂
I think recharging at 10 miles a minute is acceptable, higher power density and lower cost is what I would like to see now. That and better charging infrastructure so as mentioned by others range anxiety is not an issue.
Yup, this sounds like a reasonable top end to me as well. More than that just becomes wasting money on something that isn’t an issue anymore.
I had more range anxiety in an ice car than my ev.
There is another hurdle. Just imagine everyone wanting to fast charge on a typical highway. The power infrastructure just isn't ready for that kind of demand.
thats why i still see a point for plug-in-hybrids.
Even it purists say its nonsense, which is true for nowadays tesla driver 'pioneers' that rarely see crowded cahrgers, i cant imagine how the endless convoi of germans/dutch... driving down the highways of Austria in summer to get to Italy and Croatia half of france on their way to the mediterranean, should get their cars recharged and how to bring the sheer amount of electricity to the highways.
Colleague of mine had the same reflections and ended up with a Kia plug in hybrid and is pretty happy.
The electric range is plentyful for his daily commute for 2-3 days (he works on a site where bicycle or public are really NOT an option). But for the weekend or large holiday trip, he does not rely on charging infrastructure.
Also, the rare materials for the battery are optimally used. Compared to a pure ICE car, the engine suffers a lot less from short rides.
He has it for a year now and was at a fuel station 3 x.
Less than 1% of cars on the road in the US are EVs. I uh, think we've got some time to build up the infrastructure.
I agree with Olivier:
Since the infrastructure is transitioning from fossil fuels to electricity, it makes sense to have a vehicle that can utilize both kinds of infrastructures.
Matt recently did a video about Solar Electric Vehicles (SEVs) though, and the potential of the Aptera SEV to charge some 50 miles in a day, given ideal conditions, just from the sun is a powerfully liberating concept.
Edit: Matt Ferrell, not Marr Ferrell
Niobium is rare, about 80% of the amount of cobalt available in Earth's crust. It already has a lot of uses, similar to cobalt. If it doesn't result in a cobalt-free battery, most folks probably won't be willing to foot the extra expense.
Cobalt can be replaced with iron or even manganese. The output terminal voltage may change but that is a minor detail. The good thing is that cobalt replacement is relatively easy. It is the lithium that is proving to be a mess.
Lithium is 20 times more crustily abundant, and the spot price for Lithium right now is $497,500.00 USD per tone, right now there is low demand for Niobium at $45,000 per ton. But wait until there is serious demand for it. I'm pretty sure it will get more expensive too, lithium was just @$16,500.00 a ton in 2018 that's 30 times higher. In 2020 the average 65kwh EV battery has about 8kg's of lithium about $2,388.00USD in each car.
The real problem is a matter of infrastructure -
The electrical grid cannot support those types of charging rates using existing cabling to transmit power. Remember most homes have only a 200amp service panel. There is not enough ability to increase "the Juice" over the current cables which come to our homes. If every home in a existing neighborhood had a EV charging on a daily basis, it would literally melt the power lines on the telephone poles coming to our homes. This is before the ability to perform any type of "Fast Charge".
Hot Take: Charging in 5 minutes is LESS convenient than charging in 10 to 15 minutes. Why? Anything less than 10 minutes and charging becomes a discrete fueling event (much like filling up a gas tank), and as a result, no multitasking is possible. Essentially, EV owners would be back to wasting time standing in front of the "pump" in much the same way as gas car owners currently do. That lost time = inconvenience.
Agreed. I dreaded the amount of charging time needed when I bought my EV…until I did it the first time and realized I didn’t need to be with my car anymore.
Heck, my car is charging while I type this! But it’s in the parking lot on a L1 while I’m inside working my 9-5 :-)
Personally I'm rooting for StoreDot. They have been around for years and have managed to get through multiple investment rounds, meaning their technology most likely works as advertised, even if it's not perfect and might not be better than those other examples. However, there is space for many players on the market - as long as there aren't too many competing standards.
First I've seen them. I'll definitely keep tabs on them, thank you!
Looks like they're using the silicon chem. I wonder what kind of life expectancy they'll have.
Since buying my EV I have learned to... . Chill. When I go shopping I park on a free 7kw charger in my local town and instead of tearing around grabbing stuff I take my time. I walk to other stores in the town (Im in the UK, not Texas walking is a thing here, we have footpaths and everything !). I visit various stores and buy what is best/cheapest at each. After an hour or so I have added more charge in my car than I used to get to town and back. It takes 30 or 40 mins more, no big deal. I have stopped in a highway fast charger, plugged in , used the toilet (washroom to you Mericans), grabbed a coffee and topped up enough to finish my journey. Ive spent longer parking, using the toilet, then pulling over to the gas pumps, then waiting in line for a fuel pump, then waiting in line to pay (pre contactless). How long is the average stop at Buck'ees ! (for the Texans). Its just a different mindset and I find it more relaxing.
I believe that "range anxiety" is a term concocted by the EV industry. It's the EV industry saying "Our EVs don't have a problem with range. You just have a mental condition we call range anxiety. It's very clever.
I recently took my first road trip in my EV, and I’m convinced the current issue is DCFC infrastructure.
Like you say, current cars are able to get to 80% (which gives you 2-3 hours of driving) in 20-30 minutes which sounds longer than gasoline cars at first. But the issue is that most of us don’t simply gas up and go. We go into the store and use the bathroom at the least or we buy a bite to eat and take a stretch break at most.
So at the end of the day, most people are already spending 20-30 minutes at the gas station even if they don’t think it. So we mostly just need to build out that infrastructure!
Will be interesting to see where this battery tech eventually goes though!
Depends on how you drive... I for one don't "stop to eat" its drive through or grab and go and I can take a quick piss. Within 5 minutes my car is filled, my bladder is empty, and I have solid and liquid snacks to keep me going for another 5+ hours. If I didn't care how long it took me to go somewhere then I could consider an EV, but most of the time that means less time used for my vacation activities. Add cold and windy winter driving into the mix and that EVs range drops to the point where I am recharging every 3 hours or less on a road trip, pff, no thanks!
@@RIPPEDDRAGON40k time your pit stop next time you take a road trip. I’m willing to bet that this routine ends up taking you 15-20 minutes from the moment you hit go on the gas to when you are ready to start the engine again.
So, unless you’re routinely driving more than 6 hours in a day, there’s a good chance that your fears are unfounded. And if you ARE routinely doing loner drives then that then you’re so far in the minority of users that it will be a long time until car manufactures get around to making a car that meets your needs.
@@RIPPEDDRAGON40k At a gas station, you can't fill up and do all those other things as the same time. I bet pumping gas and then finding a parking spot to tackle the other items takes 10 minutes. Hitting the bathroom and then grabbing a snack and drink are most likely another 10 minutes. I drive from GA to FL in an older Model S with less range and slower charging than the current models and I stop to charge twice on my 450mi route. Day trips in an EV are perfectly doable. The real advantage is your daily commute and charging at night. You always have a full tank and never waste time at a gas station and save a good bit of money in the process. The time saved on daily driving substantially more than offsets the charging time on the occasional road trip. I love how people take one occasional use case and because it's not exactly what they are use to, they decide the next wave of technology is not for them.
Its called a co-pilot, you multi task and keep each stop as short as possible. On a 2000 mile trip I am looking at 4 stops for gas or 7 stops for electricity. Which adds up to more than 3 more hours of travel time or approx 12% slower. Why would anyone use an EV for long distance... A plug in hybrid would work great but yall love your Tesla's. I do a lot of this driving in the winter for skiing and even worse is EV performance in the cold. I will have to keep my fingers crossed the outdoor temps are warm enough to make it to a ski mountain without a recharge and hope there is an available EV spot at the mountain so I can recharge to get home. I have yet to find a reason to replace my Audi as my road trip ski wagon. Give me a 500 mile range in the wind below freezing and I would finally consider moving to an EV. Till then is gasser or plugin hybrid for me. I don't need a car for daily commuting as I WFH mostly, I need a car that can regularly go 250+ miles to the middle of nowhere and then another 250+ miles back to home.
@@RIPPEDDRAGON40k you’re definitely in the minority then. A 2000 mile trip is not a regular occurrence for the average person.
Sigh. I don't care how long it takes to charge my EV. I just did multiple 600km+ trips - including one that was 1,000km. I almost never had to wait to charge. At every stop I had a bio-break, ate something, replied to some messages and sent out more, etc.
I know non-EV drivers talk about this all the time, but actual EV drivers generally do not.
Honestly I find this video disappointing. I really think you can do way better than this.
What type of area do you live in? I know in Canada we have very limited charging off the Trans-Canada Highway. If you want to go north of south of the highway you run out of places to charge. In order for an EV to be a main family vehicle there has to be a lot more charging stations or an efficient solar power option that you can setup when you stop at your destination.
was your employer paying you at the recharging? my son has a fleet he would like to go electric but he would have to pay two people at each recharge adding to the cost.
I have done chicago to flordia in 16 hours many times. when i have 2 weeks of vacation time, i dont want to spend all of it traveling to my dest and back....
@@victorhopper6774 people who drive for their job have legal requirements for rest breaks. Besides, fuel and maintenance savings would offset the costs of charging time.
@@kahnoleary this was in Europe. From Ireland to France, Belgium, Germany, Denmark and Sweden.
I'm tired of battery pundits saying "the cost of battery pack dropped by 89% over the last 10 years" as if that means anything. It means NOTHING. As of right now, inclusive of that 89% reduction in cost, they are still far too expensive. They aren't going to continue to drop like that. Its an exponential curve and it has already decayed like 4 time constants towards the asymptote. In fact, with supply chain problems they are actually going to go UP this year not down, for the first time ever. What matters is not what has happened but what will happen.
1/2 MW chargers everywhere is going to have a fairly big impact on the grid.
Unless you trickle charge a battery set, like in many high power stations in Europe.
@@Muppetkeeper The video is about fast charging.
@@JimmyLLL Yes, the charging station trickle charges a large static battery, and then when a car comes along dumps a huge amount of power into the car. It reduces grid requirements.
@@Muppetkeeper Ok sorry. That makes sense.
@@JimmyLLL I could have been more clear, this method is common place over here.