Reading the actual guidelines on Steamworks page, the actual characters don't need to be revealed. Actually, it won't change that much how most fighting games already announce season pass: "When a Season Pass is made available for purchase on Steam, it must include the following information: A complete list of all DLC included in the Pass. (e.g. listing each of the four DLCs included in a Pass). A basic description of the content that’s included in each DLC. For example, the first content release might be “The Glitterlands Expansion - New area to explore, two new weapons, and new enemies.” It’s not required for the DLC to have a final name at the launch of the Season Pass. The information about the content in the DLC doesn’t need to be detailed (simply “new weapons” or “two new weapons” is acceptable, they don’t have to list the exact weapons). Expected release date for each DLC. Quarter and Year (e.g. January to March 2025) or Season/Year is acceptable. Of course, a date that’s more precise is also fine (e.g. June, 2025 or June 1st, 2025). A Season Pass must include at least one released DLC when it is made available for purchase* *with the exception of Season Passes included in a Pre-Purchase of a deluxe edition." So the content in the DLC doesn't need to be detailed. It needs to commit with an expected release date, but it doesn't need to be specific, it could just by quarter or season.
This, they can be vague about what’s in the pass, the just have to commit to a release window for each chunk of the pass that releases and the amount and type of content that will be in each chunk. But for most fighting games, this should change very little about how it’s done, just holds developers feet to the fire where if they don’t meet their commitment then consumers are entitled to a refund be it partial of full
Basically Politics 101. One loophole or exception just means the whole thing is broken from the start so it's a nothing burger. Thanks for bringing this up!
Yeah this is the thing that a lot of people who are celebrating tend to overlook. It’s an important distinction of what is and isn’t required from a developer. It’s mildly annoying to see people not do full research push half truths to an audience.
Street Fighter 7 Season Pass includes: Male Fighter with Boxing Gloves and he likes to throw roses. Female Fighter with big boobies. Yeah I can see how this works
@@tokyobassist Not at all. It's not a loophole, it's simply not the intention of this change to prevent games from keeping details hidden. The point is to prevent games from selling a season pass without any details at all. It's a good consumer friendly policy. If I buy this, what am I getting and when. There are season passes that don't meet that low bar.
Nothing will change, developers can still keep them vague. "The information about the content in the DLC doesn’t need to be detailed" Doesn't help it looks like Max only saw a snippet of this on twitter, he should really go to the actual source of information instead of reading the first thing he sees.
Nothing will change for fighting games, but this is good for consumers overall. It means games with vague promises of "future content" can't use that to sell a season pass. Which does happen, just not so much with FGs.
@@no_nameyouknowThere's nothing vague except WHO you might get not that your getting x amount of content That's false advertising. Regardless if you had silhouettes or not there's no guarantee you'll enjoy what they release. They also could just individually release all the content. That's why most people buy individual dlc anyways cause they understand season passes run that risk regardless.
Max ignoring the chat and his mods trying to tell him that the silhouettes very likely won't be a problem due to what the guidelines in full actually contained was infuriating. We were telling him the whole time to read the whole thing and a mod was even linking him to the actual guidelines that explained it better and not once did he acknowledge it, when he's shown that he does check out things from his mods and reads rebuttals from chat. Kind of disappointed in this segment, gotta be honest.
Max reading chat = Max reading a person saying dumb shit and ignoring everyone else for the next 10m. Problem is that when the 10m elapse, he reads another dumb comment.
@@PotatoRankEX that'd be true if it wasn't for the fact that a mod was linking several times in chat to the full guidelines and telling him to read it. Max outright ignored everything.
@@darrylrobson4376Max hates being corrected, and he also hates reading. Also tries to speed read everything and has gotten the wrong impression from things more than once because of it.
This isn't true lol. Steam clarified that you're allowed to keep surprises and the like. This just means you have to be upfront about stuff like "this includes a character", "this includes a stage", etc etc. The exact quote: "When a Season Pass is made available for purchase on Steam, it must include the following information: A complete list of all DLC included in the Pass. (i.e. listing each of the four DLCs included in a Pass). A basic description of the content that’s included in each DLC. For example, the first content release might be “The Glitterlands Expansion - New area to explore, two new weapons, and new enemies.” It’s not required for the DLC to have a final name at the launch of the Season Pass. The information about the content in the DLC doesn’t need to be detailed (simply “new weapons” or “two new weapons” is acceptable, they don’t have to list the exact weapons). Expected release date for each DLC. Quarter and Year (i.e. January to March 2025) or Season/Year is acceptable. Of course, a date that’s more precise is also fine (i.e. June, 2025 or June 1st, 2025)."
@@MechaMan2012 And he had plenty of time between he first saw the first screenshot to the release of this video to verify the source, what he should have done in the first place. With the audience Max has, he should be more careful to not spread misinformation for the sake of views.
@@jumpbeatshootMax's mannerisms and stance on certain things lately had already been turning me off, but this was just flagrant grasping at straws, not caring if he was right or wrong, just to gush about his work on KI. If this is going to be an indication of how he's going to act in the future, I'm going to be more likely to just give up on his content at this point. Dood might be getting a bit of an ego here.
Did ya'll forget Marvel vs Capcom 3? Before the reveal trailers for individual characters, Capcom would post a group shot that is composed of mostly silhouettes and only revealing the promotional characters. Yeah they used to do it too.
Steam: ok you have to tell your customers what they are actually paying for, content and character wise Max: broooooooo I had a small hand in fast forwarding this kind of movement for season passes, its the silhouettes! I'm really trying to grasp what dood is trying to say here, he knows secret characters existing as silhouettes until unlocked has been a thing long before DLC or season passes. So why would he not think the transition from in game unlockables shown as silhouettes, to season passes/DLC showing content as silhouettes. Wheres the big brain moment he's feeling
I believe La noir is credited as the first game to ever use the season pass terminology, then mortal kombat was second as they used the season pass terminology later that year
People only run with the first point of the section that was shown off. This is why it is important to actually read through the source itself, rather than just go with what Twitter and the like say. Information gets quickly tossed out without proper research and this has been evident by the Genmaji Stage debacle of Tekken 8. Many were under the assumption that the stage was going to be included in the Season Pass, when in reality it only was a way for customers to play characters earlier than the public release, mostly. Season Pass owners still had to purchase the stage seperately, which sparked the entire outrage to begin with. EDIT: (Forgotten to actually get to the point.) As many have pointed out already, the reason why nothing will change most likely is because this is what Steam says about Season Pass/DLC details : "A basic description of the content that’s included in each DLC. For example, the first content release might be “The Glitterlands Expansion - New area to explore, two new weapons, and new enemies.” It’s not required for the DLC to have a final name at the launch of the Season Pass. The information about the content in the DLC doesn’t need to be detailed (simply “new weapons” or “two new weapons” is acceptable, they don’t have to list the exact weapons)."
i definitely think the tekken 8 fiasco had something to do with it but overall this is a good thing for consumers. SF6 and strive have already started showing their entire season pass roster instead of teasing the rest so i don't see much changing
100% it's a Namco thing. They do this with Sparking Zero and Gundam Breaker 4 as well. Sick of the fucking trading card game mindset they have when selling Season Passes. They are supposed to the "user retention" aspect of any game. The reason to keep playing and supporting the game, not a means to cut back content, engage in dark patterns and making day 1 supporters feel like suckers.
Not just Heihachi and the stage but just the general practice of engaging in dark patterns and the like such as making up random nebulous dates for content drops (Winter 2025), not disclosing the full content included when Season Passes are 3/4 for the game's price, etc.
@@tokyobassistHate to be that guy but those are not what dark patterns are. According to wikipedia it's UI trickery, like Fortnite not having a confirm window when buying things in-game, or pages having a big, colored "Accept all cookies" button vs a single grey line saying "Reject all". I'm sure there's a name for season pass nonsense though.
Season Pass is a disgusting practice. To ask buyers to put money down on nothing but a "trust us bro" is absurd. Fighting games can still tease silhouettes to drum up interest, just don't ask for money at that point. Max is wrong on this, Steam got it right.
I thought this at first too, but at the end of the day they'll still just keep it listed as Q1/Q2 etc. They won't be required to name drop or give away specifics to what a roster will be.
also, a lot of the new Steam rules aren't really anything new, just Valve clarifying stuff: You buy licenses to games, & the DLC Season Pass has to indicate what the DLC contains & have the first item available... which is what all the Fighting Game season passes already do
It’s not gonna be as impactful as you think on fighting games, because the new rules allow you to be incredibly vague about what the dlc actually is, as vague as “this season pass includes this many characters by on this date/in this month and this many on this further date” and requires 1 piece of content from the pass to be released when the sale of the season pass begins
Monster Hunter Wilds also has this bullcrap. The premium deluxe version has 2 cosmetic DLC packs with layered stuff, but it's a big question mark, no one knows what it is. Only CAPCOM knows.
@@MouseKeyboardPlayeri mean........ There is still a big difference between whole ass characters, in a competitive game ...... and some cosmetic that, lets be real, many people don't even care that much. Same topic, but very different products.
@@ii-er2kp You are right and I agree with you, but this is literally what Steam is telling everyone, cosmetics or not. You are still paying money not knowing what you're getting.
I really don’t care much for Wilds extra DLC. I’m more interested in holding onto that money for the obvious Master Rank expansion, the series in known for. (G rank before they called it Master starting in World) Then, I can think about any cool extra layered stuff, afterwards. Up front DLC just doesn’t really feel worth it, in my opinion.
From what I’ve seen people age saying Stream is allowed to keep surprises. Sounds like stuff won’t be changing that much. Which is good one of most hype things showing off what characters are coming next.
It's bad enough being asked to pay for DLC before it's available. At the very least, we should know what we will eventually get, so we can make a more informed decision about if it's worth the money or not. Honestly, the entire concept of pre-ordering any sort of digital game or DLC simply makes no sense because there are infinite copies available. The point of pre-ordering is to reserve something, such as a physical product with low supply and high demand. Let's stop supporting digital pre-orders in general as much as possible to send the message to the game makers that we aren't morons.
It is clear in the description that “a general description” is enough. That it IS a character, and the date is defined and met, is enough. That is, nothing changes.
I. Fucking. Hate. Fighting game publishers charging me for content but ooooo it's a MYSTERY! Like buying a sandwich but not getting told what's in it. Would you buy it? Fucking NO!
This is why new games are Year 3 buys. But this isn't new. Remember SF2? Hyper Fighting came out third. Alpha > Alpha 2 > Alpha 2 Gold? EX > EX+ > EX+a? 3rd Strike? This is the FG rule, for the most part, not the exception. See also: Mortal Kombats, Guilty Gears, Tekkens, Battle Arena Toshinden, Dead or Alive, and even Soul Blade/Calibur.
@@VoidEternal I mean the third game being the best of the series/iterations. With these games, it's just the patch/roster of Year 3 now instead of the "third version of the product." *points to difference between S3 and S4 of Guilty Gear Strive*
My interpretation of the events are as follows. Devs must provide Steam with a. Complete list of the content provided in the season pass. Devs are NOT required to tell the public what’s included in the season pass, only the platform At the discretion of Steam, they may decide to leak the season pass contents should a company breach its contractual obligations or decide to cancel the season pass. Do I think it’s more related to Tekken 8? No. This is an older problem. Most notably Thems Fighting Herds dropping g a roadmap plan that was kept intentionally vague, and then cancelling it before being liquidated, thus violating their contractual agreements. For example. That’s my sub arctic IQ take of the events as they unfolded.
I'm not, but the only reason is that, since fighting games are already expensive - and buying part of the roster is something I find ridiculous -, I don't even buy games before their "Ultimate Editions" get decent discounts, so, in this current obscure season pass model, I get a bit more to look forward to, as a spectator, in terms of reveals; if I don't like an individual reveal, it's fine, because there's another one soon enough, leaving me with enough engagement to check in periodically. Whereas, if I don't like an entire season, I lose that engagement for long enough that I might even forget about the game.
This is why I don't buy season pass. I will literally buy individual DLC characters on those who I WANT to use. Its better to this way then waste $40 on a season pass where you don't end up liking. I mean are people really okay paying $40 extra dollars on characters that should have been in the game? (Tekken 8 DLC)
The pay-wall just to get all the characters in a single game is so egregious that I don’t even play fighting games no more. To play these characters shirt yet to pay, but at least let people practice against their move set in training mode.
It needs to change. It's anti-consumer. Unrelated: I've always hated staggered character releases. The one character comes out and the community sucks the flavor out of them. Even if you didn't get the character you have to deal with an influx of players using that one character. There was a greater variety of matchups when all 4-6 characters dropped at once.
as much as a surprise can be fun, if this means i get to know exactly who each character is and when they will drop before i have to spend money on them, i’m all for this. not knowing what i’m actually paying for is a big reason why i don’t buy a lot of fighting game DLC and once i actually know who i’m gonna get for my money the hype has usually died down and i don’t even bother.
I see Pros & Cons to this. On one side the surprise and anticipation is really fun to watch. Guessing who the characters will be and the shock value for the reveal is awesome. However the downside is we are paying for something that we might not enjoy which could be rather disappointing and even a waste of money. Honestly I’m 50-50 about the silhouette fiasco
I think its an all good yah we won't get another shocking Smash style holy shit its Sora but its a little ridiculous that videogame studios are selling promises and wanting you to pay for theme first
Namco's greedy asses led to this. I know someone will bring up Fatal Fury but that Season Pass is free. Tekken 8 Deluxe Edition upgrade costs $40 for a mystery box of characters. I've been saying that at the $30-40 price point of these passes, silhouettes are unacceptable. It's not on us to rethink how to generate marketing and hype for character reveals when you can't be secretive. That's their job.
Yeah... I think Fighting Games won't be affect by this at all. They don't have to give full details. If they would say for example "This Season Pass included 4 Character. Character 1 comes out in 2025, Character 2 comes out in 2025, Character 3 comes out in 2025 and Character 4 comes out in 2026." They are probably good to go. They just need to tell you what will be in it and a rough time frame when certain things are coming out. From what I've heard, the Time frame can just be a year, doesn't has to be a month or a specific day. I think this is more about other Games, where they tell you "You get DLC "Name" and "Name" and "Name"" and you just sit there and be like "yeah... cool names... but that is that dlc specificly? Is it just some items or new missions? what is it? and when does it come out?" Overall this is just supposed to make it more obvious to the customer what they are buying and when they can expect it. And if they don't get what they payed for, they can request a refund.
isk, it could be that the publisher only has to tell steam that the content is 'a playable character', and the main change would be that that have to specify the exact dates.
I guess if this does end up being the case. The only way to keep it as it was before. Is to just not do a season pass. Still have the characters come out but just no way to pre buy them before they are announced.
I think the part of "You must release some of the content with the season pass" is the hard part here. They can probably keep character reveals but having to release one said character right when the season pass start will require them to alter their production schedule if not hold characters back from rosters so they have one right off the bat for a season pass
Already knew what this would be before I clicked it and when I saw this on Twitter I was immediately bummed that we may no longer get cool reveals in the same way. FGC always getting the short end...
I really loved seeing characters get surprise revealed and I think that's a really special thing, but I tend to prefer the reveal first. I think we get way too caught up in predicting characters and having all talk about the game be about who the characters are (remember Smash's DLC?). I like getting all of them revealed at once with better communicated time frames for release and then being excited to see how they look and play later. Makes us not spend so long speculating and also tells everyone what they are paying for upfront
I would imagine the silhouetted season pass marketing approach can remain as is. 'Cause as long as developers inform the consumer about the substance of the upcoming content (i.e. characters, stages, costumes, etc.), it doesn't necessarily have to be in great detail (i.e. character identities).
Maybe he's talking about fighting games with Killer Instinct being the first to have a season pass, but I'm pretty sure the first Borderlands did that, you could buy the dlc separately or in a bundle to save some money, I remember that back in the day thinking it was a good idea, fast forward to now where basically every game does it, lol
You still do the silhouettes, you either just add these unfinished versions as alts, if necessary add a silhouette mode to the game, and just like that you're complying with the new TOS.
The only thing that changes for fighting games released on steam is that they have to tell the consumers the amount of content and what type of content it is their season offers. So for example "This season pass contains 5 new fighters, 3 new stages, 3 new soundtracks and 1 new costume for each existing character over a period of 12 months". They don't have to go into detail about how those characters and constumes look and such. Marketing using silhouhattes only and building the hype is fortunately still possible.
Gabe is for the consumers yall. Has always beileved in open markets. Puts his customers first type shit. Even shares views with Phil in terms of giving back to the Consumer when they can.
sadly it was confirmed they wont need to confirm the characters so its a shame. They still able to hide their characters and give people early access to get people to commit
so this season pass rule doesnt need to be that detailed, each new "DLC" must be described by at least with "a new character" thats all that it needs from my understanding all you need to do is have one charcter(or DLC out) already and general dates for when they come out so most games actually have this nailed down
Bruh Injustice 2 doing it, he didn't look at the trailer till the end. How in the hell the dude in the chat who point up him about Injustice 2 didn't mentioned it. Same with MKX, they do silhouette for the pack 2 dlc. Heck they also do silhouette place holder for MKX roster before. As a matter a fact, both Injustice 1 and MK9 has silhouette for their dlc as well. NRS did too
Fighting games usually provide a good amount of general detail about whats to come. Just not the specifics. Other genres of games can be worse. For example, Frostpunk 2, sold their game with a 3 future dlc promise. There is zero detail about what that dlc content could actual be. There are no dates about when its coming. Its just a "promise"
I'm not sure if this applies to fighting game characters. How much detail is required to count as "telling people what they are getting". If they consider "4 new character to be released by X date" enough details, then this changes nothing. On the other hand, they might consider that to be too vague, maybe they will say the devs need to tell you more specifically what you are getting.
I am not so sure that this will change much other than this.... It might force dev's to play their cards closer to their chest. They might talk of the season past but ANYTHING that is about the details won't be posted on steam till release. As of the current, game dev's are pretty open with people, but Valve is doing this because quite a few arn't. That said this will not have the effect that Valve was looking for. I don't see this stopping the 'random character' out of nowhere effect, like what happened with KOF15 with Omega Rugal and Leopold Goenitz, if they keep those DLC separate from the season (which they effectively were for 15). 7:40 True but would Valve care? It's their marketplace, Gabe makes the rules and they have the leverage. Could dev's and publishers move? They could... if they can stand the fact that they will be pelted with tomatoes when they do that. Gamers are VERY protective of Stream as the only PC option, and I expect a very vocal minority to scream to the heavens should something of the influence of... say... Tekken... Move to... say.... Epic Game Store.
This "change" mostly doesnt do anything for anybody. Expect maybe sell a few less season passes. As this relies on them showing all the promised content at once, and not individually releasing the content. Tbh most people should acknowledge the risk of buying a season pass might not give you something you like silhouettes or not. Perfect example is cod they just sell the season pass without showing you ANYTHING. The only thing they promise is future content, and dont give you a timeframe.
![Stromae, Pomme - “Ma Meilleure Ennemie” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1F3OGIFnW1k/mqdefault.jpg)
Reading the actual guidelines on Steamworks page, the actual characters don't need to be revealed. Actually, it won't change that much how most fighting games already announce season pass:
"When a Season Pass is made available for purchase on Steam, it must include the following information:
A complete list of all DLC included in the Pass. (e.g. listing each of the four DLCs included in a Pass).
A basic description of the content that’s included in each DLC. For example, the first content release might be “The Glitterlands Expansion - New area to explore, two new weapons, and new enemies.” It’s not required for the DLC to have a final name at the launch of the Season Pass. The information about the content in the DLC doesn’t need to be detailed (simply “new weapons” or “two new weapons” is acceptable, they don’t have to list the exact weapons).
Expected release date for each DLC. Quarter and Year (e.g. January to March 2025) or Season/Year is acceptable. Of course, a date that’s more precise is also fine (e.g. June, 2025 or June 1st, 2025).
A Season Pass must include at least one released DLC when it is made available for purchase*
*with the exception of Season Passes included in a Pre-Purchase of a deluxe edition."
So the content in the DLC doesn't need to be detailed. It needs to commit with an expected release date, but it doesn't need to be specific, it could just by quarter or season.
This, they can be vague about what’s in the pass, the just have to commit to a release window for each chunk of the pass that releases and the amount and type of content that will be in each chunk. But for most fighting games, this should change very little about how it’s done, just holds developers feet to the fire where if they don’t meet their commitment then consumers are entitled to a refund be it partial of full
Basically Politics 101.
One loophole or exception just means the whole thing is broken from the start so it's a nothing burger. Thanks for bringing this up!
Yeah this is the thing that a lot of people who are celebrating tend to overlook. It’s an important distinction of what is and isn’t required from a developer. It’s mildly annoying to see people not do full research push half truths to an audience.
Street Fighter 7 Season Pass includes:
Male Fighter with Boxing Gloves and he likes to throw roses.
Female Fighter with big boobies.
Yeah I can see how this works
@@tokyobassist Not at all. It's not a loophole, it's simply not the intention of this change to prevent games from keeping details hidden. The point is to prevent games from selling a season pass without any details at all.
It's a good consumer friendly policy. If I buy this, what am I getting and when. There are season passes that don't meet that low bar.
California Man Admits To Never Watching Pokemon
The pokemon anime itself is a fighting game? That is a HUGE intro demo.
Nothing will change, developers can still keep them vague.
"The information about the content in the DLC doesn’t need to be detailed"
Doesn't help it looks like Max only saw a snippet of this on twitter, he should really go to the actual source of information instead of reading the first thing he sees.
Nothing will change for fighting games, but this is good for consumers overall. It means games with vague promises of "future content" can't use that to sell a season pass. Which does happen, just not so much with FGs.
@@no_nameyouknowThere's nothing vague except WHO you might get not that your getting x amount of content That's false advertising.
Regardless if you had silhouettes or not there's no guarantee you'll enjoy what they release.
They also could just individually release all the content.
That's why most people buy individual dlc anyways cause they understand season passes run that risk regardless.
Max ignoring the chat and his mods trying to tell him that the silhouettes very likely won't be a problem due to what the guidelines in full actually contained was infuriating. We were telling him the whole time to read the whole thing and a mod was even linking him to the actual guidelines that explained it better and not once did he acknowledge it, when he's shown that he does check out things from his mods and reads rebuttals from chat. Kind of disappointed in this segment, gotta be honest.
Max reading chat = Max reading a person saying dumb shit and ignoring everyone else for the next 10m. Problem is that when the 10m elapse, he reads another dumb comment.
Dood just REALLY wanted to tell the Brocolli Man story. lol
I think he'd rather convince himself he had an effect on something big. So he ignores being corrected.
@@PotatoRankEX that'd be true if it wasn't for the fact that a mod was linking several times in chat to the full guidelines and telling him to read it. Max outright ignored everything.
@@darrylrobson4376Max hates being corrected, and he also hates reading. Also tries to speed read everything and has gotten the wrong impression from things more than once because of it.
you really didn't though my dood
This isn't true lol. Steam clarified that you're allowed to keep surprises and the like. This just means you have to be upfront about stuff like "this includes a character", "this includes a stage", etc etc.
The exact quote:
"When a Season Pass is made available for purchase on Steam, it must include the following information:
A complete list of all DLC included in the Pass. (i.e. listing each of the four DLCs included in a Pass).
A basic description of the content that’s included in each DLC. For example, the first content release might be “The Glitterlands Expansion - New area to explore, two new weapons, and new enemies.” It’s not required for the DLC to have a final name at the launch of the Season Pass. The information about the content in the DLC doesn’t need to be detailed (simply “new weapons” or “two new weapons” is acceptable, they don’t have to list the exact weapons).
Expected release date for each DLC. Quarter and Year (i.e. January to March 2025) or Season/Year is acceptable. Of course, a date that’s more precise is also fine (i.e. June, 2025 or June 1st, 2025)."
People, including mods, were trying to clarify it for him during the stream and he just outright ignored chat during this segment.
@@MechaMan2012 And he had plenty of time between he first saw the first screenshot to the release of this video to verify the source, what he should have done in the first place. With the audience Max has, he should be more careful to not spread misinformation for the sake of views.
so no "character slot is actually frame data" dlc
@@jumpbeatshootMax's mannerisms and stance on certain things lately had already been turning me off, but this was just flagrant grasping at straws, not caring if he was right or wrong, just to gush about his work on KI. If this is going to be an indication of how he's going to act in the future, I'm going to be more likely to just give up on his content at this point. Dood might be getting a bit of an ego here.
So essentially, the only company it would REALLY affect is Bamco over what happened with Heihachi and his stage?
Max please. This isn't going to affect fighting games since they've been doing it like this for years now.
Did ya'll forget Marvel vs Capcom 3? Before the reveal trailers for individual characters, Capcom would post a group shot that is composed of mostly silhouettes and only revealing the promotional characters. Yeah they used to do it too.
Steam: ok you have to tell your customers what they are actually paying for, content and character wise
Max: broooooooo I had a small hand in fast forwarding this kind of movement for season passes, its the silhouettes!
I'm really trying to grasp what dood is trying to say here, he knows secret characters existing as silhouettes until unlocked has been a thing long before DLC or season passes. So why would he not think the transition from in game unlockables shown as silhouettes, to season passes/DLC showing content as silhouettes. Wheres the big brain moment he's feeling
They don't even have to tell the characters. Look for the actual Steamworks guidelines.
main character syndrome sneaking in again lol
has been happening a lot recently idk why
I believe La noir is credited as the first game to ever use the season pass terminology, then mortal kombat was second as they used the season pass terminology later that year
If I see that a game has a pass, and it doesnt tell me what is exactly in the pass, I NEVER buy it. EVER.
People only run with the first point of the section that was shown off. This is why it is important to actually read through the source itself, rather than just go with what Twitter and the like say. Information gets quickly tossed out without proper research and this has been evident by the Genmaji Stage debacle of Tekken 8.
Many were under the assumption that the stage was going to be included in the Season Pass, when in reality it only was a way for customers to play characters earlier than the public release, mostly. Season Pass owners still had to purchase the stage seperately, which sparked the entire outrage to begin with.
EDIT: (Forgotten to actually get to the point.)
As many have pointed out already, the reason why nothing will change most likely is because this is what Steam says about Season Pass/DLC details : "A basic description of the content that’s included in each DLC. For example, the first content release might be “The Glitterlands Expansion - New area to explore, two new weapons, and new enemies.” It’s not required for the DLC to have a final name at the launch of the Season Pass. The information about the content in the DLC doesn’t need to be detailed (simply “new weapons” or “two new weapons” is acceptable, they don’t have to list the exact weapons)."
Early enough to see the bots LET'S GOOOOOO
What the hell are those things?
Great comment ❤ I really appreciate your commitment to improving engagement in the community!
They can't get rid of character silhouettes! We need more of Max drawing Rock Howard in them!
Not DLC but Smash 64 had silhouettes for the locked characters
Imagine a silhouette of Steve from Minecraft in the Smash Bros season pass and trying to act like we don't know what it is.
I can't believe Sakurai copied the silhouette idea from max for smash!
Brocoli man should be the mascot of KI
I personally blame you Max!
It wasn’t you, my dude.
i definitely think the tekken 8 fiasco had something to do with it but overall this is a good thing for consumers. SF6 and strive have already started showing their entire season pass roster instead of teasing the rest so i don't see much changing
Is it about the Heihachi batch not including the new stage?
100% it's a Namco thing. They do this with Sparking Zero and Gundam Breaker 4 as well. Sick of the fucking trading card game mindset they have when selling Season Passes.
They are supposed to the "user retention" aspect of any game. The reason to keep playing and supporting the game, not a means to cut back content, engage in dark patterns and making day 1 supporters feel like suckers.
Not just Heihachi and the stage but just the general practice of engaging in dark patterns and the like such as making up random nebulous dates for content drops (Winter 2025), not disclosing the full content included when Season Passes are 3/4 for the game's price, etc.
Fiasco?
@@tokyobassistHate to be that guy but those are not what dark patterns are. According to wikipedia it's UI trickery, like Fortnite not having a confirm window when buying things in-game, or pages having a big, colored "Accept all cookies" button vs a single grey line saying "Reject all".
I'm sure there's a name for season pass nonsense though.
This is why i dont buy season passes anymore and wait until characters go on sale or just dont purchase at all
Count the times max says ‘Effectively’ hahaha
Much less than much less 😂
Season Pass is a disgusting practice. To ask buyers to put money down on nothing but a "trust us bro" is absurd. Fighting games can still tease silhouettes to drum up interest, just don't ask for money at that point. Max is wrong on this, Steam got it right.
I thought this at first too, but at the end of the day they'll still just keep it listed as Q1/Q2 etc. They won't be required to name drop or give away specifics to what a roster will be.
Max didn't create season passes. Chill fans. Chill
Ok guys, Max is responsible for it, now shame him and throw stuff at him
Booooo
Make him play Xenoblade Chronicles to completion as punishment.
😂😂😂
@@paperluigi6132 Nah, Dirge of Cerberus 100% run
BOOOOO THIS MAN😂
also, a lot of the new Steam rules aren't really anything new, just Valve clarifying stuff: You buy licenses to games, & the DLC Season Pass has to indicate what the DLC contains & have the first item available... which is what all the Fighting Game season passes already do
That’s HUGE, good for Steam !
It’s not gonna be as impactful as you think on fighting games, because the new rules allow you to be incredibly vague about what the dlc actually is, as vague as “this season pass includes this many characters by on this date/in this month and this many on this further date” and requires 1 piece of content from the pass to be released when the sale of the season pass begins
Rock Howard with the Dew whip was peak silhouette speculation.
Monster Hunter Wilds also has this bullcrap. The premium deluxe version has 2 cosmetic DLC packs with layered stuff, but it's a big question mark, no one knows what it is. Only CAPCOM knows.
COSMETIC... WHO TF CARES
@@Kaimax61 It's not about caring about cosmetics, it's about the topic, I know some people have trouble thinking, but I'll help you out this time.
@@MouseKeyboardPlayeri mean........
There is still a big difference between whole ass characters, in a competitive game ...... and some cosmetic that, lets be real, many people don't even care that much. Same topic, but very different products.
@@ii-er2kp You are right and I agree with you, but this is literally what Steam is telling everyone, cosmetics or not. You are still paying money not knowing what you're getting.
I really don’t care much for Wilds extra DLC. I’m more interested in holding onto that money for the obvious Master Rank expansion, the series in known for. (G rank before they called it Master starting in World) Then, I can think about any cool extra layered stuff, afterwards. Up front DLC just doesn’t really feel worth it, in my opinion.
Smash Bros. arguably did this with the silhouettes of the unlockable four in Smash 64, though they obviously weren't DLC.
Yeah I thought this was the onvious inspiration
Facts
Pokemon started it.
"Who's that character?"
The vanity
Max, don't even
You guys did OBVIOUS silhouettes. Game devs these days don't even do silhouettes, they do question mark blocks
From what I’ve seen people age saying Stream is allowed to keep surprises. Sounds like stuff won’t be changing that much. Which is good one of most hype things showing off what characters are coming next.
Just drop one character at time and make a season pass when they are all out.
Well...at least when Tifa get's announced for Tekken 8 we'll know and can be excited WELL AHEAD of when it actually drops.
That I really want to happen man just when harada is gonna give us the hint for tifa in T8
Sheesh nobody can read policies and interpret them correctly..
It's bad enough being asked to pay for DLC before it's available. At the very least, we should know what we will eventually get, so we can make a more informed decision about if it's worth the money or not. Honestly, the entire concept of pre-ordering any sort of digital game or DLC simply makes no sense because there are infinite copies available. The point of pre-ordering is to reserve something, such as a physical product with low supply and high demand. Let's stop supporting digital pre-orders in general as much as possible to send the message to the game makers that we aren't morons.
It is clear in the description that “a general description” is enough. That it IS a character, and the date is defined and met, is enough. That is, nothing changes.
I. Fucking. Hate. Fighting game publishers charging me for content but ooooo it's a MYSTERY! Like buying a sandwich but not getting told what's in it. Would you buy it? Fucking NO!
This is why new games are Year 3 buys.
But this isn't new. Remember SF2? Hyper Fighting came out third. Alpha > Alpha 2 > Alpha 2 Gold? EX > EX+ > EX+a? 3rd Strike?
This is the FG rule, for the most part, not the exception. See also: Mortal Kombats, Guilty Gears, Tekkens, Battle Arena Toshinden, Dead or Alive, and even Soul Blade/Calibur.
@@TonyTheTGR MK doesn't do this, Max literally mentions it in the video. Coincidentally, also the only US based company on that list.
@@VoidEternal I mean the third game being the best of the series/iterations.
With these games, it's just the patch/roster of Year 3 now instead of the "third version of the product."
*points to difference between S3 and S4 of Guilty Gear Strive*
My interpretation of the events are as follows.
Devs must provide Steam with a. Complete list of the content provided in the season pass.
Devs are NOT required to tell the public what’s included in the season pass, only the platform
At the discretion of Steam, they may decide to leak the season pass contents should a company breach its contractual obligations or decide to cancel the season pass.
Do I think it’s more related to Tekken 8? No. This is an older problem. Most notably Thems Fighting Herds dropping g a roadmap plan that was kept intentionally vague, and then cancelling it before being liquidated, thus violating their contractual agreements. For example.
That’s my sub arctic IQ take of the events as they unfolded.
I'm all for it, cuz I never liked the idea of not knowing what you're paying for.
It makes it more exciting paying for something you know is guaranteed.
@agamerguyvalentine yea more exciting until you find out you spend $40+ for characters you don't like or care about
I'm not, but the only reason is that, since fighting games are already expensive - and buying part of the roster is something I find ridiculous -, I don't even buy games before their "Ultimate Editions" get decent discounts, so, in this current obscure season pass model, I get a bit more to look forward to, as a spectator, in terms of reveals; if I don't like an individual reveal, it's fine, because there's another one soon enough, leaving me with enough engagement to check in periodically. Whereas, if I don't like an entire season, I lose that engagement for long enough that I might even forget about the game.
This is why I don't buy season pass.
I will literally buy individual DLC characters on those who I WANT to use.
Its better to this way then waste $40 on a season pass where you don't end up liking.
I mean are people really okay paying $40 extra dollars on characters that should have been in the game? (Tekken 8 DLC)
Thank god smash bros is on switch because their reveals are like major things
Guilty Gear announced a character from Cyberpunk, and everyone seems to love it. Did not see anyone missing the unexpected reveal
Is it, The Red One? 🧐
Nothing changes. They don't have to give details just : "4 new characters" is enough, so no, nothing will change in regards to silhouettes.
The pay-wall just to get all the characters in a single game is so egregious that I don’t even play fighting games no more.
To play these characters shirt yet to pay, but at least let people practice against their move set in training mode.
It needs to change. It's anti-consumer. Unrelated: I've always hated staggered character releases. The one character comes out and the community sucks the flavor out of them. Even if you didn't get the character you have to deal with an influx of players using that one character. There was a greater variety of matchups when all 4-6 characters dropped at once.
Max, please. KI 2013 Riptor was clearly inspired by Talon from Primal Rage 😂
To me this makes me think this will only give developers more crunch, which is bad
as much as a surprise can be fun, if this means i get to know exactly who each character is and when they will drop before i have to spend money on them, i’m all for this. not knowing what i’m actually paying for is a big reason why i don’t buy a lot of fighting game DLC and once i actually know who i’m gonna get for my money the hype has usually died down and i don’t even bother.
I see Pros & Cons to this. On one side the surprise and anticipation is really fun to watch. Guessing who the characters will be and the shock value for the reveal is awesome. However the downside is we are paying for something that we might not enjoy which could be rather disappointing and even a waste of money. Honestly I’m 50-50 about the silhouette fiasco
I think its an all good yah we won't get another shocking Smash style holy shit its Sora but its a little ridiculous that videogame studios are selling promises and wanting you to pay for theme first
"WHO'S THAT POKEMON" "It's me, Austin!"
Namco's greedy asses led to this. I know someone will bring up Fatal Fury but that Season Pass is free. Tekken 8 Deluxe Edition upgrade costs $40 for a mystery box of characters.
I've been saying that at the $30-40 price point of these passes, silhouettes are unacceptable. It's not on us to rethink how to generate marketing and hype for character reveals when you can't be secretive. That's their job.
Max over here thinking he's more special than he is.
Yeah it's starting to show a little too much now. Worst thing is everybody seems to believe everything he says without question.
Yeah... I think Fighting Games won't be affect by this at all.
They don't have to give full details. If they would say for example
"This Season Pass included 4 Character. Character 1 comes out in 2025, Character 2 comes out in 2025, Character 3 comes out in 2025 and Character 4 comes out in 2026."
They are probably good to go. They just need to tell you what will be in it and a rough time frame when certain things are coming out. From what I've heard, the Time frame can just be a year, doesn't has to be a month or a specific day.
I think this is more about other Games, where they tell you "You get DLC "Name" and "Name" and "Name"" and you just sit there and be like "yeah... cool names... but that is that dlc specificly? Is it just some items or new missions? what is it? and when does it come out?"
Overall this is just supposed to make it more obvious to the customer what they are buying and when they can expect it. And if they don't get what they payed for, they can request a refund.
Aganos might be my favorite KI character. I love how the screen needs to zoom out for that chonky boi.
Ok, I never was this quick at clicking
Of Al the bad dlc trends this one bothers me the least
I love this change, steam is a blessing when it comes to making devs be transparent on wtf you're paying for.
isk, it could be that the publisher only has to tell steam that the content is 'a playable character', and the main change would be that that have to specify the exact dates.
I guess if this does end up being the case. The only way to keep it as it was before. Is to just not do a season pass. Still have the characters come out but just no way to pre buy them before they are announced.
I think the part of "You must release some of the content with the season pass" is the hard part here. They can probably keep character reveals but having to release one said character right when the season pass start will require them to alter their production schedule if not hold characters back from rosters so they have one right off the bat for a season pass
Broccoli Man, Sockoli Man... What's he doing today?
He's dead...
Max, you have to properly read the full guideline. And no you didn't.
Already knew what this would be before I clicked it and when I saw this on Twitter I was immediately bummed that we may no longer get cool reveals in the same way.
FGC always getting the short end...
I really loved seeing characters get surprise revealed and I think that's a really special thing, but I tend to prefer the reveal first. I think we get way too caught up in predicting characters and having all talk about the game be about who the characters are (remember Smash's DLC?). I like getting all of them revealed at once with better communicated time frames for release and then being excited to see how they look and play later. Makes us not spend so long speculating and also tells everyone what they are paying for upfront
I would imagine the silhouetted season pass marketing approach can remain as is. 'Cause as long as developers inform the consumer about the substance of the upcoming content (i.e. characters, stages, costumes, etc.), it doesn't necessarily have to be in great detail (i.e. character identities).
Maybe he's talking about fighting games with Killer Instinct being the first to have a season pass, but I'm pretty sure the first Borderlands did that, you could buy the dlc separately or in a bundle to save some money, I remember that back in the day thinking it was a good idea, fast forward to now where basically every game does it, lol
Take the video down do not loose any more goodwill .
You still do the silhouettes, you either just add these unfinished versions as alts, if necessary add a silhouette mode to the game, and just like that you're complying with the new TOS.
As someone that hates surprises and would like to know what I am paying for this is a win.
Nice journalism
The only thing that changes for fighting games released on steam is that they have to tell the consumers the amount of content and what type of content it is their season offers. So for example "This season pass contains 5 new fighters, 3 new stages, 3 new soundtracks and 1 new costume for each existing character over a period of 12 months". They don't have to go into detail about how those characters and constumes look and such. Marketing using silhouhattes only and building the hype is fortunately still possible.
I dont think there is a more iconic game series known for silhouettes than Pokemon.
That "Autumn 2023" for KOF XV kinda looks like K9999.
To think you have this affect on the game. You don't have this affect.
Wym
@@Revstarallstar Silhouettes won't change
I remember when they showed the silhouette for Ed in SFV season 2 i thought it kinda looked like Iori from kof
Gabe is for the consumers yall. Has always beileved in open markets. Puts his customers first type shit. Even shares views with Phil in terms of giving back to the Consumer when they can.
SF6's Season 1 characters were secret. We only knew about it because of the concept arts being leaked before the game came out
Max is always larger than life than I seem to think he is.
sadly it was confirmed they wont need to confirm the characters so its a shame. They still able to hide their characters and give people early access to get people to commit
How did I not know about Broccoli Man and why am I now mourning him?!
so this season pass rule doesnt need to be that detailed, each new "DLC" must be described by at least with "a new character" thats all that it needs from my understanding all you need to do is have one charcter(or DLC out) already and general dates for when they come out so most games actually have this nailed down
I feel like the understanding of the new Steam guideline is so misunderstood that you should probably issue a correction
I guess Super Smash Bros "A new challenger approaches" shiluettes probably came before this
Bruh Injustice 2 doing it, he didn't look at the trailer till the end. How in the hell the dude in the chat who point up him about Injustice 2 didn't mentioned it. Same with MKX, they do silhouette for the pack 2 dlc. Heck they also do silhouette place holder for MKX roster before. As a matter a fact, both Injustice 1 and MK9 has silhouette for their dlc as well. NRS did too
Just a new way to think their marketing, they can announce everyone way before the dlc go to the stores and make hype anyway
Oh, dear... STOP BEING MODEST, MAX! FLEX!!! 😁😆
Watch companies just not include characters in the season passes moving forward, lmao.
Fighting games usually provide a good amount of general detail about whats to come. Just not the specifics. Other genres of games can be worse.
For example, Frostpunk 2, sold their game with a 3 future dlc promise. There is zero detail about what that dlc content could actual be. There are no dates about when its coming. Its just a "promise"
Still sending the terminator..it will be the marketing guy.
Injustice 2 did do silhouettes. After they revealed the first 3 they showed silhouettes for the next 6.
I loved the Rock Howard run. I will miss those days.
I'm not sure if this applies to fighting game characters. How much detail is required to count as "telling people what they are getting". If they consider "4 new character to be released by X date" enough details, then this changes nothing. On the other hand, they might consider that to be too vague, maybe they will say the devs need to tell you more specifically what you are getting.
I am not so sure that this will change much other than this.... It might force dev's to play their cards closer to their chest. They might talk of the season past but ANYTHING that is about the details won't be posted on steam till release. As of the current, game dev's are pretty open with people, but Valve is doing this because quite a few arn't. That said this will not have the effect that Valve was looking for.
I don't see this stopping the 'random character' out of nowhere effect, like what happened with KOF15 with Omega Rugal and Leopold Goenitz, if they keep those DLC separate from the season (which they effectively were for 15).
7:40 True but would Valve care? It's their marketplace, Gabe makes the rules and they have the leverage. Could dev's and publishers move? They could... if they can stand the fact that they will be pelted with tomatoes when they do that. Gamers are VERY protective of Stream as the only PC option, and I expect a very vocal minority to scream to the heavens should something of the influence of... say... Tekken... Move to... say.... Epic Game Store.
This "change" mostly doesnt do anything for anybody.
Expect maybe sell a few less season passes.
As this relies on them showing all the promised content at once, and not individually releasing the content.
Tbh most people should acknowledge the risk of buying a season pass might not give you something you like silhouettes or not.
Perfect example is cod they just sell the season pass without showing you ANYTHING. The only thing they promise is future content, and dont give you a timeframe.
I was hoping we would get a review of the KOFXV Rock Howard Silhouette Saga