Complex topic. A few of my thoughts: While I think a fork limit rule isn't a bad idea I also think there are practical limits on fork length since exceptionally long fork tend to limit maneuverability. I am particularly fond of control bots so a rule bias towards forks on powered (articulating) forks does sound good to me. The shorter, stubby 'piano key' style forks seem to be quite effective and personally I'd be reluctant to swap out those for long thin spike like forks if it were my combat robot. I have always considered Minotaur to be a fantastic design for a number of reasons and one of those reasons is its a design that eats forks. The best defence is a strong offence and all that jazz.
I'm with the "forks are self regulating" guys. Maybe if they get rid of the killsaws or switch to a perfectly flat granite floor or something, then regulate, but right now running forks is a risk, especially later in the season as the floor gets Deepsixed.
I love your channel. I’m trying to get my young son interested in robotics. I designed a unique flipper that should lead to some exciting moments. I’m getting ready to start building it soon. Thanks for all your videos!
I guess forks also carry their own risks as we've seen in recent past matches and can also get in the way of the user. This was very noticeable with Whiplash. When Whiplash gets flipped over with the arm not retracted, it takes longer to self right because the forks are too long and are preventing the robot from self righting by retracting the arm. So it could only self right in one way, not two like normal, as we saw in their fight against Hydra in 2020, and just before its costly KO loss to Hypershock recently
Since the massive forks end up compromising your ability to drive (see S6 - Hydra vs. Endgame), I feel like they are self-limiting and don't need a specifically counter-fork rule. I would love to see a video outlining various approaches to ground game, since I feel like it's such a big part of the sport and most fans don't really appreciate how it works. While ground-gaming until you can't drive leads to boring fights, being able to get under your opponent makes basically any type of robot more effective (especially non-spinners), so I think understanding how the ground games works would help fans see more of the strategy battle between teams rather than just seeing the negative aspects of attempting to win the ground game.
it does self-limit the size which is good, and the arms race mostly seems to be in creating more effective designs across a variety of lengths and shapes and styles, which is also good. The design space still allows for some fairly ridiculous forks being reasonable choices, and can be pretty meh when two bots keep getting their braces caught together. I don't think they need to but IF they wanted to limit forks for that reason or whatever, I like Emmanuel's suggestion quite a lot.
@@wyrmh0le Emmanuel’s suggestion is definitely a super popular one because it adds a cost to ground attachments without creating a ton of definition issues. It’s still pretty easy to cheese by putting an absurdly geared tiny motor in charge of fork movement and getting your passive forks back when it breaks.
The recent endgame/ripperoni fight.. the absurd comically long forks of endgame. I thought they were just trying to be sarcastic or something at that point. Lol
So let me add my take on the whole forks controversy. I honestly think forks are fine. Winning the ground game is so important in Battlebots. It can literally be the difference between you winning or losing a match. If you want a perfect example of that, just look at the rematch between Hydra and Tantrum and how Tantrum was able to get underneath Hydra and dominate them. Had Tantrum not used those forks… the fight could’ve played out very differently. Forks allow bots that normally wouldn’t have a chance against other bots to have a fighting chance. How would your fight against Jackpot played out had you not used that fork configuration? Also, forks do involve some risk and are not a sure fire guarantee that you will win. Look at Valkyrie vs Banshee or an even better example is Endgame vs Ripperoni. Make them too long.., and you risk them getting stuck in the kill saws or other hazards. I know people complain about the kill saws, but this is why I think they should remain. They act as a check against forks. So let people bring forks…but know there is a risk you could end up screwing yourself if you get caught in one of the hazards.
Super long forks are arguably dated at this point anyways, they get stuck in more stuff and compromise driving, and a lot of teams are now running short 'piano keys'
The problem with limiting forks is that it gets fuzzy fast. Huge's stabilizers most certainly aren't forks, but both Mammoth and Deep Six had long structures out front for stability. When does that turn into a fork? Also, where do you start measuring to determine fork length?
Every time I see you guys I can't help but channel John Mellincamp, "Here's a little ditty about Zack and Diane, two American kids and their giant tin can."
seems the consensus is excessively long forks is its own problem and is rather self-regulating. certainly it wouldn't take long to come up with some defense for it, and at some point even BB 'competitors' will start to show little mercy against someone stuck in the kill saw slot or wedged under the side of the box.
I 100% agree that passive forks should be limited in size. Personally I feel like they should be limited to 6-8". Also with the advent of forks the kill saws have become an obstacle in generating action packed fights. If a bot becomes stuck in the saws their opponent rarely engages them. This is probably because if the bot remains stuck its an auto win for their opponent. Why risk freeing the other bot? Limit the size of the forks and make the saws active throughout the entire fight. That or do away with the saws completely. Let's be honest fans watch and attend to see action and destruction. Not defense and bots getting stuck in features of the box.
Should be a good fight, although that preview photo of you guys riding atop their forks and the sparks is not giving me much confidence. Will just have to wait and see.
Yea, I agree... The rule should be 12" forks unless they are conected to an active lifter. That should be the rule. That should stop the Fork Arms race.
Yes, the forking game is getting more and more ridicolous. Everything should have a limit to it. Be it fork length, weapon mass, spinning speed, armour strength, and so on. If the heavyweight robot combat wants to stay under the spotlight, it needs to be accessible and affordable by many people. So by limiting stuff there would'nt be too expensive robot or tickets to the event. It would be closer to the fair play spirit.
Maybe a max combined fork length option. So 60 1" wedgelets = 2 30" forks, etc. Allows for multiple tactical setups and potentially limits fork length from going overboard
Rather than make a rule, I would just raise every other steel plate by setting it on washers. Then dragging your forks becomes a liability. Couple this with a rule change that being counted out requires that one bot drive from one starting box to the other and sit motionless for 15 seconds or so, all without any contact from the other bot. This demonstrates one bot is running and the other bot is significantly impaired. It is less subjective. This leaves articulating wedges as an option for those who need them but has the risk of breaking and dragging leaving your bot unable to move across the arena. I would also replace the kill saws and hammers with flippers. Those are so much more fun to watch and could be used by a team on their own bot if they want to flip back over. Also, I have yet to see a fight in which the kill saws were involved in a way I wanted to see.
Forks ruin the spectacle a bit, either they work in which case the match is one sided or they don't in which case the design becomes fatally compromised and the match is one sided. Ban passively articulating forks of any length. Design to win the ground game properly or don't. No floppy paddles on the front pls! Permanent forks like skorpios has that don't articulate are fine. Lifter forks are fine.
I agree, forks and wedgelets have gotten out of control. Endgame v Blip was boring as hell as End game put a wall of wedgelets and hid behind them when the spinner died. Hydra also hides behind wedgelets and has lacked aggression for the last two seasons, the wedgelets also killed its drive more than once so a limit of length and amount (8 if they are either side of a weapon, ----+----, and 10 if there isn't a weapon making a gap between the central wedgelets, ----------, that's how I'd decide how many wedgelets you can have).
Complex topic. A few of my thoughts:
While I think a fork limit rule isn't a bad idea I also think there are practical limits on fork length since exceptionally long fork tend to limit maneuverability.
I am particularly fond of control bots so a rule bias towards forks on powered (articulating) forks does sound good to me. The shorter, stubby 'piano key' style forks seem to be quite effective and personally I'd be reluctant to swap out those for long thin spike like forks if it were my combat robot.
I have always considered Minotaur to be a fantastic design for a number of reasons and one of those reasons is its a design that eats forks. The best defence is a strong offence and all that jazz.
Forks are very important in Battlebots, just look at how badly Deathroll did against Cobalt because they had no forks!
I'm with the "forks are self regulating" guys. Maybe if they get rid of the killsaws or switch to a perfectly flat granite floor or something, then regulate, but right now running forks is a risk, especially later in the season as the floor gets Deepsixed.
What a truly great and humble builder. Great video to demonstrate the camaraderie between bot builders and teams.
I love your channel. I’m trying to get my young son interested in robotics. I designed a unique flipper that should lead to some exciting moments. I’m getting ready to start building it soon.
Thanks for all your videos!
I guess forks also carry their own risks as we've seen in recent past matches and can also get in the way of the user. This was very noticeable with Whiplash. When Whiplash gets flipped over with the arm not retracted, it takes longer to self right because the forks are too long and are preventing the robot from self righting by retracting the arm. So it could only self right in one way, not two like normal, as we saw in their fight against Hydra in 2020, and just before its costly KO loss to Hypershock recently
Since the massive forks end up compromising your ability to drive (see S6 - Hydra vs. Endgame), I feel like they are self-limiting and don't need a specifically counter-fork rule. I would love to see a video outlining various approaches to ground game, since I feel like it's such a big part of the sport and most fans don't really appreciate how it works. While ground-gaming until you can't drive leads to boring fights, being able to get under your opponent makes basically any type of robot more effective (especially non-spinners), so I think understanding how the ground games works would help fans see more of the strategy battle between teams rather than just seeing the negative aspects of attempting to win the ground game.
it does self-limit the size which is good, and the arms race mostly seems to be in creating more effective designs across a variety of lengths and shapes and styles, which is also good. The design space still allows for some fairly ridiculous forks being reasonable choices, and can be pretty meh when two bots keep getting their braces caught together. I don't think they need to but IF they wanted to limit forks for that reason or whatever, I like Emmanuel's suggestion quite a lot.
@@wyrmh0le Emmanuel’s suggestion is definitely a super popular one because it adds a cost to ground attachments without creating a ton of definition issues. It’s still pretty easy to cheese by putting an absurdly geared tiny motor in charge of fork movement and getting your passive forks back when it breaks.
The recent endgame/ripperoni fight.. the absurd comically long forks of endgame.
I thought they were just trying to be sarcastic or something at that point. Lol
Check out the self limiting in End Games Vs. Ripperoni
@@wiresmith2398 Yeah *awful cheeky* of Team Skorpios to pose the fork question right before that fight. Lol
4:27 that voice transition is crazy
HE MENTIONED ROBOT RUCKUS!!
Arbitrary rules don't make getting under your opponent and less important, the meta will regulate itself.
It's almost like Jake Ewert is on to something when he pushes the ruleset to it's extreme
So let me add my take on the whole forks controversy. I honestly think forks are fine. Winning the ground game is so important in Battlebots. It can literally be the difference between you winning or losing a match. If you want a perfect example of that, just look at the rematch between Hydra and Tantrum and how Tantrum was able to get underneath Hydra and dominate them. Had Tantrum not used those forks… the fight could’ve played out very differently. Forks allow bots that normally wouldn’t have a chance against other bots to have a fighting chance. How would your fight against Jackpot played out had you not used that fork configuration? Also, forks do involve some risk and are not a sure fire guarantee that you will win. Look at Valkyrie vs Banshee or an even better example is Endgame vs Ripperoni. Make them too long.., and you risk them getting stuck in the kill saws or other hazards. I know people complain about the kill saws, but this is why I think they should remain. They act as a check against forks. So let people bring forks…but know there is a risk you could end up screwing yourself if you get caught in one of the hazards.
Skorpios; "We don't do forks... we do long, sharp, armored face plates with frills!"
Super long forks are arguably dated at this point anyways, they get stuck in more stuff and compromise driving, and a lot of teams are now running short 'piano keys'
I want that Skorpios poster!
The problem with limiting forks is that it gets fuzzy fast. Huge's stabilizers most certainly aren't forks, but both Mammoth and Deep Six had long structures out front for stability. When does that turn into a fork? Also, where do you start measuring to determine fork length?
Mammoth and Deep Six both have plastic stabilizers.
@@TheLaXandro That's irrelevant because a fork is a fork regardless of material.
From the base of the balls to the tip of the foreskin.
Oh hey, Ellis Ware! I didn't expect to see him around. That guy turns up in the oddest of places in this sport. Bring us Magnetar, sir!
I thought that when I saw him! Would love to see his bots in Battlebots.
It will be the Battle of Forkage between Skorpios vs Big Dill. Good Luck for the both of you guys!
Every time I see you guys I can't help but channel John Mellincamp, "Here's a little ditty about Zack and Diane, two American kids and their giant tin can."
seems the consensus is excessively long forks is its own problem and is rather self-regulating. certainly it wouldn't take long to come up with some defense for it, and at some point even BB 'competitors' will start to show little mercy against someone stuck in the kill saw slot or wedged under the side of the box.
I 100% agree that passive forks should be limited in size. Personally I feel like they should be limited to 6-8". Also with the advent of forks the kill saws have become an obstacle in generating action packed fights. If a bot becomes stuck in the saws their opponent rarely engages them. This is probably because if the bot remains stuck its an auto win for their opponent. Why risk freeing the other bot? Limit the size of the forks and make the saws active throughout the entire fight. That or do away with the saws completely. Let's be honest fans watch and attend to see action and destruction. Not defense and bots getting stuck in features of the box.
Ditch forks. Weapon on weapon mayhem my friend. We want to see destruction!!
Y E S
Should be a good fight, although that preview photo of you guys riding atop their forks and the sparks is not giving me much confidence. Will just have to wait and see.
Yea, I agree... The rule should be 12" forks unless they are conected to an active lifter. That should be the rule. That should stop the Fork Arms race.
2:06 Dustin does not approve of this conversation
I mean making your forks too long will result in something bad. Look at what happened to endgame against ripperoni
12 inches unpowered still sounds hella long... how many bots have longer..???
Like 36 inch
@@SkorpiosBattlebot who is running 36⁉️💀
Something I'd like to see is brushes or a gasket or something in the killsaw slots so that bots aren't jamming forks into them.
I guess that’s the risk you take using forks, the kill saws have been there in every series
@TriVos Ahren yeah that would be pretty cool
I'd love to see a passive fork limit
Yes, the forking game is getting more and more ridicolous. Everything should have a limit to it. Be it fork length, weapon mass, spinning speed, armour strength, and so on. If the heavyweight robot combat wants to stay under the spotlight, it needs to be accessible and affordable by many people. So by limiting stuff there would'nt be too expensive robot or tickets to the event. It would be closer to the fair play spirit.
Maybe a max combined fork length option. So 60 1" wedgelets = 2 30" forks, etc. Allows for multiple tactical setups and potentially limits fork length from going overboard
don't like forks? cover the arena floor in 5cm of gravel and dirt. that obviously wouldn't cause any other problems.
Rather than make a rule, I would just raise every other steel plate by setting it on washers. Then dragging your forks becomes a liability. Couple this with a rule change that being counted out requires that one bot drive from one starting box to the other and sit motionless for 15 seconds or so, all without any contact from the other bot. This demonstrates one bot is running and the other bot is significantly impaired. It is less subjective.
This leaves articulating wedges as an option for those who need them but has the risk of breaking and dragging leaving your bot unable to move across the arena.
I would also replace the kill saws and hammers with flippers. Those are so much more fun to watch and could be used by a team on their own bot if they want to flip back over. Also, I have yet to see a fight in which the kill saws were involved in a way I wanted to see.
Million won is maybe $10000
Your big weapon has problem it was hitting the floor. Some of energy hits goes to waste
Forks ruin the spectacle a bit, either they work in which case the match is one sided or they don't in which case the design becomes fatally compromised and the match is one sided. Ban passively articulating forks of any length. Design to win the ground game properly or don't. No floppy paddles on the front pls!
Permanent forks like skorpios has that don't articulate are fine. Lifter forks are fine.
I agree, forks and wedgelets have gotten out of control. Endgame v Blip was boring as hell as End game put a wall of wedgelets and hid behind them when the spinner died. Hydra also hides behind wedgelets and has lacked aggression for the last two seasons, the wedgelets also killed its drive more than once so a limit of length and amount (8 if they are either side of a weapon, ----+----, and 10 if there isn't a weapon making a gap between the central wedgelets, ----------, that's how I'd decide how many wedgelets you can have).