The Evolution of StarClan; Why I Think the Ancestors' Morality Falls Flat
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2024
- Strap in everyone today's video is a long one!
Timestamps
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0:00- The Evolution of StarClan
21:18- Why I Think the Ancestors' Morality Falls Flat
33:55- The Good Place (and Why StarClan isn't One)
40:42- Outro
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The Warrior ancestors are seen as a force of good for the clans so we'll explore what that means exactly.
The first half of the video explains the powers that StarClan and spirit cats have been shown to possess. The second half goes into what these powers mean in regards to the clan cats living their day to day lives. We discuss some topics like sexism, morality and how StarClan has evolved over the years.
Spoilers for the whole Warrior Cats main books, some Super Editions and Novellas. Starting from The Prophecies Begin all the way up to River.
After this video is posted I'll being going on a short hiatus. Warrior Cats Wednesdays will be back in a few weeks.
Twitter: / sunney_rabbit
Subtitles have been added so RUclips doesn't autogenerate them
Honestly the longer the books go on the more and more i just want them to actually commit to the starclan villain arc they've been unintentionally cooking up for the last decade
After reading Squirrelflight’s Hope they need a full on “Are we the baddies” moment
I actually made that- well for my own OC's, Starclan is the antagonist while the dark forest cats is more in the neutral-goodish side.
@@YourLocalPurple SAME! Well, I still have Dark forest cats as evil. But since I'm learning how to make fanfics, I used Starclan as the villain.
Me too XD
@@YourLocalPurple
My OC StarClan are very hissy at canon StarClan lmao
"Starclan do not control the forest. We watch over you. We send guidance through omens and prophecies, but we do not interfere. If we did, would you truly be free?"
This is the Starclan they should've stuck with. Not all powerful and controlling, but still a comforting presence.
In the first series everything that happened was the result of a choice made by living cats. Starclan stayed in the background. Fireheart occasionally had prophetic dreams but they were warnings, not instructions. It was also left vague as to whether some incidents were really signs from Starclan or just coincidences that the clan cats chose to believe were messages from their ancestors.
In the later arcs, Starclan and the Dark Forest became easy sources for conflict. It felt like they were the main driving forces of the story, with the living cats being shunted aside unless they were "chosen".
The characters lost all agency too. Every important decision a character made was later retconned to be because Starclan or the Dark Forest told them to do it. It's like they're just playing pieces to be moved around instead of actual characters with goals and motivations of their own.
Best summary of StarClan
If they gave us a book about both sides not caring about the living cats it could make for a great story
Yea I almost wish they would commit to the idea of none of the living cats having any agency or freedom.
Even in the original series they were a lawful neutral force.
The gave cats like Brokenstar and Tigerstar 9 lives, but denied Nightstar.
As long as you follow their arbitrary rules you can get in.
The problem comes when they introduced the dark forest / "the bad ancestors"
Because that frames StarClan in a "righteous" light that they frankly have never deserved
Starclan probably just makes the cats that go there feel high and mighty for being able to go cat heaven and any other cat afterlife that isn't theirs is immediately classified as bad or inferior.
Ever think about how StarClan kept telling Pinestar to kill his infant son?
or Goosefeather :D
Instead of warning Bluestar about adult Tigerclaw they try and get Pinestar to murder him as a baby
@@Shadowfate93 eeyup
@@Shadowfate93 They basically went, “Hey should we warn them about tigerkit becoming a tyrant and not to give him any type of power?” “Nope let’s have his own father kill him! What’s the worst that can happen?” (Input the rest of the series onward.)
@@trixsanimations5109 or maybe you know, dont make freaking dark forest trainee "encourages you to beat up kits" thistle claw be his mentor?
It's so weird reading the modern books and seeing all the damage they've caused while still being told that Starclan is infallible.
They lied to Squilf and Leafpool about the 3 only to put them on trial later.
The way cats like Redwillow, Juniperclaw amd Snowtuft are doomed to stay in the dark forest forever despite their ability to change and regret their actions is awful.
Starclan acting as a villain while we're told that they're only benevolent is so dissonant and could be interesting. But I don't think the writing team will ever do anything with it
redwillow is already dead sadly, he died horribly :(
id also like to mention antpelt who literally did nothing wrong going to the dark forest and how starclan handled him. he was literally just some trainee who after standing up to his asshole mentor, endured a slow, painful death from infected wounds. dont let the fanon designs fool you hes a good boy whose only fault was not liking the clans structures and saying something mean in 1% of all his scenes (im his biggest stan so id reccomend skimming some of his living scenes from the books 😿)
Imagine if God put Mary on trial for a chance to be in heaven, despite birthing Jesus just because she had Joseph as a husband. The writers literally thought putting characters on trial for contributing to a major prophecy in StarClan’s favor in an unorthodox way was a logical idea 💀
True, though Its a possibility for an AU. Which I kind of made where Starclan is the antagonist but is seen as the good guys or whatever.
@@mysryuza
Actually, I think in some versions of the bible (specifically the very very old ones no one talks about) does have that happen.
@@mooneatsworms I reallly want a main character to end up in the Dark Forest when they die, that hasn't happened before. It would be interesting if Nightheart died (obviously temporarily) and he goes to the Dark Forest instead of Star Clan. He goes there because he's resentful, angry, rude even, and Starclan doesn't like that for whatever reason. Bleh, maybe someone can write a fanfic with that idea
The reason Warrior Cats is getting progressively less interesting and more completely absurd is because StarClan has become a greater and greater focus. In the first arc, they were as mysterious as they should have remained, and the focus was on the real, physical world the cats lived in and their social structures. You know, the part of the series that actually hooks people. But as the series went on StarClan and the Dark Forest just took over the narrative until there came a point where Clan life became meaningless and the Clans are basically just one entity who get into arguments sometimes.
Yeah, there’s not enough focus on the actual living cats anymore and that makes me sad
About the "medicine cats can't have a mate or kits" rule, I saw a comment a long time ago that I think explains the actual reason: because the Warriors series loves its forbidden romance stories so much that Erin Hunter made the medicine cat rule just so they could have more.
I genuinely think that's all there is to it.
I may have some insight into this actually! Apparently as recently as last century doctors were kinda supposed to choose their career over a potential family (hence women were discouraged from being doctors, because they were supposed to have kids and such - essentially the same as the “kits vs clan” rule medicine cats have). My grandmother wanted to be a pediatrician when she was young (circa 1950s or so), but was told she couldn’t do that because she was expected to have kids at some point, so she became a nurse instead because somehow that was a job that wouldn’t need that prioritization. My reaction when she told me this was essentially “hey that’s just like the medicine cats in warriors,” so assuming the Erins have the societal/historical awareness of stuff like that maybe that’s an influence
@@sockjim9016not so cool but cool history fact, doesn’t make too much sense for cats tho unless the clans are inherently sexist which does make more sense
@@lettuce_soup5557 I don't think the clans are inherently sexist in-universe but I'm pretty sure the authors are
I miss arc 1 Starclan that seemed majestic and mysterious
me too. I still haven't started The Broken Code (at least I saw the "Don't Make me" map)
I’d say the whole of arc one was majestic and mysterious. Probably because we were learning about a new lifestyle from the perspective of someone new to the lifestyle
The sexism in this series is SO palpable.
Speaking on leaders and deputy's not having kits (more so female leaders) I definitely always turn to Bluestar's treatment. Which was, that she gave up her kits so she could be deputy. She had a complete cover, a tom who was happy to pretend to have fathered her kittens, but she gave them up because she wanted to be the deputy and eventual leader. Even though its not a stated rule in any way, there is still this weirdly alluded to pressure for Bluestar to give them up and take them to Riverclan. I haven't read Bluestar's Prophecy in a LONG time, I need to re-read it incase I'm wrong but irc, this is what basically happened! It was this weird push that she couldn't be leader if she had her kittens, which resulted in mosskit's death and just, another shitty and tragic situation for Bluestar to go through. And for why?
I want to say that Sunstar said she would’ve been deputy regardless, at the very least he wasn’t picking Thistleclaw
I haven't read Bluestar's Prophecy, but I assumed she couldn't become deputy because she'd be too busy with her kittens
4/10/23
there are plenty of times where queens will share the work load in the nursery den, seeing as how kits in canon open their eyes the either the day they're born or a day or two after and start talking the day they open their eyes not to mention all the running..
and if course helpful loving thrushpelt was already a constant presence in the kits lives, so he could've been a den dad and knowing him, his character would be all for it.
I don't see why she couldn't have done both with kit sitting and dad type help
what I'm trying to say is if the kits are basically toddlers we with the verbal range of a seven year old the day they're born, they would have the capacity to understand that mom has a job to do, (not even leader yet, just deputy) especially since other toms who've been deputy and even leader have had kits with no question (except pinestar? but that's because he was told his child was a future murderer and therefore pinestar was expected to kill his son, not a normal situation like at all)
The one reason female characters in warrior cats are more turned down is because of the kits. Blue star, if she had kits and then the deputy under sun star died, the kits would have been apprenticed then or 4-5 moons old. So she shouldn’t have given her kits up. Though I do see a pattern where a leaders kit or kit’s kit becomes a leader as well.
I way preferred back in the first series where it was way more distant. A cat dies and they become a star in the sky, isn't that how it was phrased in the first book? Not ambiguous, considering 9 lives were a thing, but they were difficult to reach and the books implied it was a multiple-day or whole day journey to the moonstone (the cats needed special herbs to curb/treat their hunger). This meant that the clan cats were essentially on their own.
Nightstar is a frustrating blip, though it did reinforce the distance between clan cats and starclan (at the time, but now its just weird since starclan could pick between 2 fascists and 1 sensible warrior and instead they stuck with 100% warrior code all the way and essentially picked a fascist, which was inherently bad for all the clans, as it allowed for tigerstar's takeover and the killing of many cats).
They could've just said that Starclan couldn't give Nightstar his nine lives because Brokenstar still had all of his, and Starclan can't take back a leader's lives unless they're given up freely. This would've shown that Starclan weren't all powerful; necessitating the need for living cats to deal with matters themselves instead of waiting for Starclan to fix everything.
As for Tigerstar, Shadowclan was falling apart when he arrived. Morality aside, he was an efficient leader who got them back on their feet. Starclan may not have been entirely happy with giving him his nine lives, but figured it was better than letting Shadowclan die out.
@@siobhannoble8545 Yes exactly. I feel like in the first series that level of distance and lack of power was reasonable. The only benefit of starclan to the clan cats was that the leader had the opportunity to lead for a full lifetime with the investment and loyalty their clan deserved, instead of having leaders who might hang back in fear of the action.
Making the lives a limited but permanently given resource/magic makes some sense but also creates conflict; starclan changes their favour after they see what the current leader has done, but they don't really have the power to do anything about it other than to tell the leader-in-waiting to do something about it. That keeps the conflict very grounded and easy to track. There's a single in-universe rule to follow and that's just the lives, instead of lives, and powers, and psychic links and prophecies and ressurections, possessions etc.
This life limit makes the powers of starclan seem very small, meaning less involvement from starclan is more believeable since they're obviously not all powerful and by extension the lack of action on their part doesn't implicate them as villain-like or malign, its clear to the reader they can't actually do anything to stop the plot, rather than it seeming like they're just neglecting the clan cats intentionally.
I will NEVER get over the fact that everything in The Broken Code only happened because StarClan showed such poor judgement regarding Ashfur. It's not even thinking between the lines. StarClan literally almost wrought its own demise and almost took their descendants AND the Dark Forest down with it.
I miss how Starclan was in Arc 1. They were this mysterious resting place for Warriors. But that’s it. The in’s and out’s were a mystery to the reader and almost had this magical presence around it. But as the arcs went on they got ridiculous and more judge mental and harsh. It was no longer a resting grounds but another clan with bad opinions.
At this point I’m pro-Dark Forest. StarClan had too much power. Somehow the DF seemed more consistent with the original concepts of them than StarClan. I wanna see rebellion against StarClan in StarClan, having some civil war, not in Ashfur style.
Imagine being put on trial for a place in Heaven just because the events that led to birthing the chosen heroes were unorthodox, even though the chosen ones help save the Clans and their starry, entitled butts. They legit set Squirrelflight and Leafpool up to be potentially damned and worthy for other StarClan cats to question and rebel. I find it weird that every cat goes through a trial now, but previously cats’ fates were already decided the moment they closed their eyes for the last time.
Yeah, I think that a large portion of the fandom agrees. Actually, I haven’t seen anyone argue in favour of starclan. (Like how do you mess up that bad, where the readers of your books series collectively agree that hell is better than heaven in this case?)
Personally I don’t think either side is good at the moment. Saying “dark forest good because StarClan bad” downplays the multiple kitty hitters that populated the place.
I’d like to see the living cats abandon their religion and join another or become atheists since it seems rather clear that neither side really cares about them all that much. And in doing so they try to effectively wipe out the two sides, leaving them to fade away with nobody to remember them besides maybe warrior clan, unless change is made ofc!
@@thelanktheist2626 " Hitters" sounds like a euphemism.😊😊
37:17 this is why I’ve always loved my girl leafpool, she’s right. No cat is 100% a complete holy saint who’s done absolutely no wrong, if the only ticket into getting into “the good place” is by possessing a completely innocent background and committing not a single sin for your entire life, then absolutely not a single person would be welcomed into “the good place”. However, this also means anyone who’s committed even the smallest act would be automatically be sent to suffer in “the bad place” for eternity, causing it to be absolutely overflowing with people while “the good place” remains almost barren.
I completely agree the system which determines whether a cat should go to starclan or the dark forest is extremely flawed. I mean like for gods sake, they let ashfur walk right into starclan, yet banished frecklewish to the dark forest to suffer for eternity? And even then, they considered sending leafpool to the dark forest for disobeying the code. Imagine leafpool in the dark forest right next to mapleshade - a literal cold blooded murder who showed absolutely zero remorse for her victims - and tell me that would look silly, right? I really hope over the next few books we may get to see an improvement in starclan as a whole, as it’s always something that bugged me while reading the books.
I have a Zodiac storyline I'm working one, called Twelve Exiles. Basically twelve StarClan cats get together because they all see issues with how StarClan's going (even an ancient cat is there), and get exiled for no real reason to be ghosts. Mainly, it's because of their trials to get them in. Here's a list:
*Aries (name undecided):* Murdered codebreakers and was never caught until one killed him, somehow still got in
*Taurus (Three-eyes):* Saw her brother Poolstar there, who literally sent patrols out to kill her (and succeded)
*Gemini (name undecided):* Was a medicine cat, and StarClan ghosted them. They didn't like it.
*Cancer (name undecided):* StarClan spoke to them since they were three moons old, and he was "destined" to be a medicine cat. Decided to be a warrior anyways, and his mother became his mentor because he was an only child. StarClan no likey, so they make a monster crash and explode near them, killing his mother and leaving him deaf. Leader made him a med cat apprentice, though the medicine cat doubted StarClan knew what they were doing in giving the cat a reason to hate them, so he became a warrior anyways. He dies, and at his trial he's told that he should have "listened to the signs", but he's let in anyways because he wasn't evil
*Leo (Lion's Song):* Was a loyal warrior who set himself on fire to kill a fox, and died in the process. He just watched StarClan decline and joined the rebellion as soon as he found out about it
*Virgo (name undecided):* Noticed everyone they had a noticeable crush on was mysteriously murdered, and picked apart details to solve it. Eventually it was found she had an obsessive tom after her heart, but no one believed her. Then she gets murdered, and is part of the trial for her murderer. She obviously drops every bit of info she had on her, but he still somehow gets in StarClan because she was overruled
*Libra (name undecided):* Saw StarClan picking obvious favorites and HATED IT
*Scorpio (Heartspring):* He was gay as heck, very flirty with all of ThunderClan's toms. He had a short crush on a she-cat, but it never got anywhere. But she sure did notice. He eventually starts flirting with other Clans' toms, one getting somewhere but the other guy knowing he can't remain loyal to his own Clan at the same time (which Heartspring accepted). Then he finally found true love in a RiverClan tom, only to get his throat ripped out by the one she-cat he gave slightly more attention to. StarClan told him he should have stuck with her and this wouldn't have happened
*Sagittarius (name undecided):* The daughter of two of the Clan's sweetest cats, she kept every emotion in check and let only sweetness show through to keep her parents happy. Eventually snapped under the pressure of having to hide her fury with the tyrant leader and killed him. The deputy killed her after that, and of course StarClan told her she should have kept her anger under control. Obviously she bit back that she had been doing that her entire life, and that being ruled by a tyrant broke her completely
*Capricorn (name undecided):* Wanted to be leader, and was carefully planning to be able to be deputy. No murder even needed to happen, just get an apprentice, train them successfully, and wait. But rumors began circulating that they were going to murder anyone who got in their way... So they're now exiled from the Clan. They don't hold a grudge and actually end up saving the deputy's life, before immediately being killed for attempted murder. StarClan did nothing to stop it
*Aquarius (Troutstreak):* Had a great idea for getting rid of a rogue group that settled on their territory, and told their Clan's leader. It spreads around all the Clans and eventually gets used for nefarious purposes, and Troutstreak is blamed for it in the end
*Pisces (name undecided):* A reincarnated cat, but unlike Cinderpelt and Cinderheart, they kept all their memories of their previous life in a far-away Clan. There was no way back, and StarClan didn't try to help guide them. They did nothing important during their lifetime except just be a reincarnated cat, but when they died their spirit was the body they last had. None of their family would recognize them, and it was StarClan that did that
Honestly a lot of my fan content is inspired by StarClan's fall from grace. Just this one in particular is getting a lot of planning. I get really edgy and melancholic sometimes, and I'm sure you see that in plenty of these.
These types of comments are one of my favorites. I love reading people’s OCs and fanfics. StarClan trials were a great addition to the lore (execution left a lot to be desired). It’d be nice to see the concept reimplemented in the series again. Your story with those who have had trials rebelling against their ancestors absolutely rocks.
Justice for Three-eyes!
@@SunneyRabbit Three-eyes is one of the most developed, next to Cancer the unnamed and Heartspring. She even adopted a kit with a cleft lip when their mother was neglecting them, to the point where that kit left the Clan wither when she thought Poolstar (then Poolsky) didn't really deserve his deputy spot. And oh boy, she was right about that.
This sounds amazing!! Where can I find more of it?
@@KristenReviews Still really working on stuff (eg. names and genders of some characters), but I do have some worldbuilding. Such as the Zodiac cats having their own sort of dreamscape area like a condensed StarClan, where they have abilities tied to their signs' elements.
@@ZirconiaGacha That still sounds amazing!! If you need writing advice, I have a playlist on my channel for the public! :)
The "Starclan kinda sucks" coffin has so many nails in it that it could reliably be used as a weapon
I would love an arc where the protagonists rebel against Starclan and who knows some Starclan and dark forest cats could also join the rebellion
If we got that book Mothwing should be at the front lines. Imagine how smug she would feel
@@SunneyRabbit I would love to see that even if I don’t read too much of the books myself
Hell yeah that'd be interesting.
The state of the warriors series weirds me out, like it has a huge team of writers at this point but none of them catch the glaring flaws that keep piling on? They are all somehow so in denial that they believe that starclan is good, bramblestar is flawless, and Frecklewish is an evil character. An interview with some of the writers would be so interesting, but I don’t think that would happen.
As I’ve aged, I’ve realized that warriors is pretty dystopian and reading it just bums me out. At this point, I’m only in the fandom to watch au maps and laugh/cry at the state of the recent books.
me too, i stopped reading in about 5th grade and just havent been able to pick it back up since. while i wish i had the context for the newer books because im still interested in the concept and fandom, i know i wont be able to read them because they're either upsetting or just kind of boring
@@aspenrose_ yeah, I realized that I can’t read the new books anymore after books 3,4,5 of broken code (arc 7). Good lord, normally I can finish a book in a day but those books were so painfully boring and dystopian that one book would take me two weeks.
@@hazelgrunts i stopped during vision of shadows, it just started getting confusing and weird so i couldnt continue which sucks because i remember how much i loved the older books. like when i read hawkfrost's death scene i was absolutely floored but my love of the series has fizzled out. and i know its not just because of changing interests, i read the guardians of ga'hoole, wolves of the beyond, and wings of fire series after stopping warriors and i loved them. the series just heavily declined in quality and in a way im glad i stopped because it sounds like its become a trashfire since
Yellowfang's character got totally massacred by Starclan. I miss the character she had in the first arc, and I wish at this point that her ghost would either die or go away and let some more recently dead cats be given a chance at omens and whatnot.
I have a theory that Yellowfang went insane while Brokenstar was rising. There's a scene in Fading Echoes where she goes to the dark forest to see what's going on and is sent home early by Spottedleaf who said that her mind gets muddied the more Brokenstar is involved. So all her irrational discisions were made while she wasn't 100 precent sane because Brokenstar was getting closer and closer to killing the clans. Notice that when he fades she starts defending Leafpool and calls Moth flight out for her bullshit in squirrelflights hope
I agree.
Also same with like other earlier StarClan cats.
It’s more of: they were wise and cool but now they’re helpless
Why is this so true?
Defeated by sticks. Never forget that.
When Starclan says that Jay, Loin, and Dove could have been born to any cat which I say BS, reincarnation is not as simple as that and shouldn't be treated as such by Starclan. When someone gets reincarnated it isn't their choice or no bodies elses but the head of space and time which Starclan doesn't have access too nor does the tribe of endless hunting. Cinderheart also isn't a true reincarnated cat due to the fact Cinderpelts soul was only attached to Cinderhearts before Loinblaze helped free Cinderpelt from Cinderheart's body. Leafpool was meant to have two of the three and Starclan putting her on trail was complete BS. Same with Squilf shouldn't have had one because it wasn't fairly done.
Also, Moth flights code should be out all together
The Erins and Starclan are the perfect example of “show, not tell”
You're SUCH a compelling essayist dude, and you've touched on thoughts I've had for a long time honestly. Though I want to add that I believe, ultimately, that this is the product of the author's/publisher's biases more than anything else, which explains why there's absolutely no lore consistency whatsoever; in fact, there's evidence that lore is the last thing on the author's minds! Remember when the Wiki used to be called the "official resource of the authors", before they were requested by said authors to take it down? That's because they admitted they used the wiki as a resource! With that being said, it's clear that their focus is entirely on plot first, and everything else coming after that (including character consistency and worldbuilding consistency), and those plots feel, to me, intrinsically linked to the personal biases that the production team may or may not have. It's already quite apparent that the writing team and/or the publishers has a tangibly...traditional viewpoint, with them cowtowing to LGBT+ censorship of other countries, the rampant and obvious sexism, and so on. And I can't help but feel that traditionlist viewpoint is the explanation for a lot of why Warriors is the way it is. While the clans (as alluded to by a statement by Cherith that got removed on the wiki, so take it with a grain of salt) were initially based on "mystical practices of other religions" which is...whoof. Quite the statement to unpack, but it's not my place to talk, and other people have made much excellent statements on the nativist elements anyway. I digress. While the clans were originally based off of that, they've much more become a stand-in for the "norm" of society, which, going off of the backgrounds of the authors and Harper Collins, would be Christian (Catholic?), White, and British, and fairly conservative (or at least centrist). And this viewpoint very obviously influences the beliefs and themes of warriors. Ambition is evil? That's fire and brimstone christianity! The nativist elements? That has a pretty solid explanation too! Authority is good so long as the people in charge is good, and we don't have to question our systems at all, even when evil people end up getting in charge? That's centrist liberalism baby!! I just feel unless this series had some very fresh blood on the writing team with a wildly different perspective, the lore will continue to bend over backwards to the traditionalist politics of the writers and/or publishing team.
And on Juniperclaw. I have a very hard time wholly condemning a cat in this system, when war and murder but like in an honorable way is considered fine by Starclan's (and the narrative's, by extension) perspective. Like, what Juniperclaw did was obviously wrong, but treating is as particular horrible compared to Tigerheartstar (traitor, AND tried to force out Skyclan by force), Leopardstar and Blackstar (LITERAL WAR CRIMINALS), Rainflower (Abusive Mother), Mudclaw (tried to start a COUP. WITH HAWKFROST), I think is just silly. Starclan themselves even said "the reasons as to why they broke the code matter more than the code breaking themselves" - taking Starclan's logic to bat, Juniperclaw's logic was to prevent deaths of his own clan, and yet his infraction was treated as so much worse than Leopard "I endorsed the murder of my deputy and fought with Tigerstar up until the moment he died" star. AGAIN. I want to reiterate that what he did obviously wasn't good, his reasoning is not a justification, but the fact that Starclan endorses cats who try to start wars for stealing squirrels or making things slightly inconvenient, who abuse and neglect their children, or collaborate with cats who Starclan deems as evil, just shows their hypocrisy through and through. Before books like Blackstar's Reckoning, he was never shown as remorseful to his actions or that he needed to atone for anything; same for Leopardstar before A Shadow Over Riverclan. Meanwhile, Juniperclaw spent the rest of his life attempting to repent after his demotion (again, a thing none of these other cats faced in spite of their actions), sacrificing himself to save Shadowkit, helping save the world as they know it, and what does he get for it? A consolation prize. This lack of consistency can be chalked up to, again, authorial bias. Vicky, in concerns to Mudclaw, "felt bad for the poor guy", and also that Ashfur's only crime at the time was "loving too much". There really isn't anything else to it, I feel.
But I suppose, if you want to take this to its logical conclusion, and look at it in universe, it comes off that these clans are just kinda...using the clan cats. In relation to another comment on here, Moth Flight implies Starclan chose Leafpool to have the Three, even if they couldn't control their powers or their destinies or whatnot. But she still broke the code so...they got what they wanted out of her, so in order to stay consistent, they made an example out of her. It's creepy and uncomfortable through and through, and the way the narrative justifies Starclan's actions constantly, constantly forgives authority, it all comes together to make this ugly theme of "it's okay if your authority figures abuse you if they're the 'Good Guys'", and it's exhausting.
This comment is so well written and I’m glad I’m not alone in thinking this. There’s so much to discuss with StarClan’s weird standards for what is a bad reason to do bad deeds and what’s a good reason. Mudclaw made it into StarClan after starting a coup because he believed he was acting in WindClan’s best interest. So was Juniperclaw and he didn’t make the cut. You can argue what Juniperclaw’s actions were way worse, though this throws a wrench in “hearts being true” part of placing him in the Dark Forest.
Juniperclaw wants so badly to be redeemed for his actions because he knows it was wrong. The best StarClan could do was make him a bouncer for their super exclusive club. I said in another comment that there is this dissonance between what we as readers are interpreting StarClan as vs what the authors intend. No one in the books brings up any of these issues which is where these problems stem from.
StarClan holds a lot of power over the clans but absolutely no one has anything to say when they get something wrong. It was so weird to see Firestar be a mouthpiece for “fairness” when the system itself is terrible. We had the golden child of Warriors tell the system wasn’t perfect while he was one of the people who could change it. Everything around Squirrelflight and Leafpool is what made me make this video. The Broken Code was the straw that broke the camels back.
@@SunneyRabbit Thank you!!! While I'm not especially up to date on the books except for these discussions, as far as I remember, Rootspring DID bring up issues, or at least had the seed of understanding planted in him because of Snowtuft and Juniperclaw (And Sparrowfeather and Silverhawk too, I think). But I don't blame the little guy for not quite being able to touch on stuff - he seemed to be aware something was wrong, but in the face of your literal patron gods or whatnot telling you "No", it's quite hard to keep up a resistance. Maybe he and Ivypool should team up in taking down Starclan or something, haha.
I think a lot of this comes down to the theme that "Emotions don't matter in the face of Duty™" . Everything with Leafpool I think speaks to this - you even covered where she was shown obviously anxious about the fact she was almost banished to the Dark Forest, and how much that was treated as just...a reaction. Not something worthy of exploration, or anything just..."Oh of course she'd be like that, she almost got condemned to eternal suffering. Moving on." Poor freaking Leafpool, (AND SQUIRRELFLIGHT TOO) who constantly put duty before her emotions, who only left to follow her heart with Starclan's presumed say-so, who left him anyway when they told her to go back, who never ONCE blamed them for anything that went wrong in her life. Poor girl acts like an abuse victim, honestly, especially with her behavior in Starclan, and I really think she should have just run away with Crowfeather and avoided all of this nonsense (I know about the badgers and stuff, but really why didn't Midnight just teleport to the clans like she can apparently do and say "hey you keep ticking off my kind, maybe you should evacuate for awhile". OR SHE COULD HAVE EVEN JUST. ACTED AS AN AMBASSADOR BETWEEN THE TWO GROUPS. But she didn't tell anyone but Leafpool if I recall correctly. This all just feels like a stunt to instill loyalty in her, honestly...).
And about what you said about Fireheart. It's an absolute shame that this book series started with the admittedly cliche but y'know. TRUE statement of like "the circumstances of your birth doesn't matter" message, but RIGHT into Arc 2 immediately got entirely obsessed with bloodlines and stuff. I really feel like they just did the "fish out of water" trope because it's easier to explain the workings of the clan that way, and with Firestar turning on kittypets fairly readily or at least distancing himself from them, and with most clan cats just kinda going "oh he's Firestar. Not a Kittypet", that theme just rings extremely hollow to me. Yeah he did question the systems, he did do good in spite of it. Until he became the system, and began displaying extremely aggressive and abusive behavior towards Brambleclaw and especially Squirrelpaw in Midnight. Yeah it was because of a prophecy, but he never like...apologizes to them. They all just forget about it because the clans are always great and we need to move the plot forward, I guess.
Very interesting to hear Firestar and Onestar say StarClan makes decisions based on the "why" and not the "what". I'm still working on reading through the series, so I don't think I ever heard of this part before.
I wonder what part of Frecklewish's "why" on how she (supposedly) broke the warrior code made StarClan think, "Yes, this is a bad cat who deserves an eternity of damnation."
I think they are basing on why they did their actions instead of what because some cats made it into StarClan who wouldn’t have made it otherwise. Mudclaw started a civil war in WindClan. He got in since he thought he was doing the best for his clan. Ashfur got in since he just “loved too much”. He had attempted to kill 4 cats in his lifetime over Squirrelflight. The why trumped the what in both cases .
Honestly, the worst things StarClan have done and cannot be forgiven for are Brokenstar and Leafpool and Squirrelflight’s trial. Brokenstar, because he was a direct curse on the clans as punishment for a fairly inoffensive crime, and… well, StarClan overabused it’s influence on the cats with the sisters, and then had the gall to try to punish THEM for it afterwards. The entire thing is ridiculous, concerning, and calls into question the validity and actual purpose of StarClan. It’s a big forest cult, and the dead cats are desperate to stay in power to stay relevant after they died. It’s horrific.
Wasn’t Brokenstar was the punishment for Skyclan’s banishment?
@@dragonstouch1042 if that’s the case I’ve NEVER seen it mentioned. The singular clan who “should” be punished is ThunderClan because of how hypocritical they were. No, I thought Brokenstar was Yellowfang’s punishment for having kits, but instead of punishing JUST her StarClan took their rage out on the entirety of ShadowClan.
@@songbird6414 Doing research, it was stated in the prologue of Yellowfang’s Secret that Brokenstar was the punishment for banishing Skyclan, and it was meant to punish all of the clans. The whole of the clans were punished because they all took part and the chose to never speak of Skyclan again
@@dragonstouch1042 holllly shit you’re right! I just looked it up. Granted, Molepelt is portrayed as a crazy old cat, even as a StarClan cat, but who knows?
It still seems stupid to me, to have Brokenstar of all cats be the ultimate punishment for SkyClan, but StarClan has had so many fucking stupid decisions that it doesn’t surprise me.
I've always looked at Warrior Cats not reading the books and not really being in the fandom but watching, and even as a young child I thought Starclan was the bad guys. And it would be really interesting if they made heaven the bad place to go. Starclan seems to wipe every one of their personality and turned them into different characters and it's almost like hell in my opinion.
Mothfligh is saying (at least what i think) that they had chosen a cat to be the mother of the three.
Which kinda lines up with Spottedleaf spurring on Leafpools romance with Crowfeather.
Well this should be interesting, especially considering the surprising amount of hate Starclan receives from the Fandom despite the Erin's deliberately making them out to be the good guys.
There’s definitely some dissonance from the fandom’s view of StarClan and the books’ view of StarClan. We are on two different wavelengths on how we see the Warrior Ancestors being depicted.
In the first series it always felt that there was a mythic Starclan and the afterlife Starclan, with the former judging morality/sending prophecies/etc. either through the cats in the afterlife or visions.
Imagine this. There are two forests...starclans hunting grounds, and the dark forest...but imagine this:
The Misty Moors. The neutral place. A place of constant mist and soft wet ground. Never starlight,but never dark. A perpetual twilight. A place full of grass that touches the shoulders, and crystal clear pools.
This place will be a place of no pain but no peace. Of silence and thoughts. It would be a place where a cat can reflect apon their life
The trial makes me so angry. I wish the authors would apologize or something. I feel like it is genuinely one of the worst alongside Spottedleaf’s Heart
Literally, the way they were grilling down on squirrel and leaf made me so upset, and the fact they even tried gaslighting leafpool because she broke the code also made me angry. It never made sense why they wanted to punish leafpool for her crimes, if leafpool never followed her heart and had kits, the three wouldn’t never been born, and therefore the power of three prophecy would not have been fulfilled. Not to mention Cinderpelt (I think it was her) even *exclusively told her upfront* to follow her head and go through with having kits with Crowfeather.
I also hate how they framed squirrelflight for “lying” to brambleclaw about the kits being hers, Yellowfang literally told her to take in her sister’s kits as her own to keep the secret safe from the clan, what else was she supposed to even do? Why are they punishing them for doing what they told them to? It doesn’t make sense.
As a Catholic (non-American) I need to add my 2 cents about duality of good and evil. It's actually not like that in our beliefs (I know that some loud-mouthed protestant preachers in America who spread hate etc would make poeple believe otherwise). There is also purgatory, a limbo where the souls that still can be redeemed, must come to terms with their actions and then have a chance to go to heaven. What is shown in warriors is a drastic symplification, that happens in maaaany maaany media, the same that would show Satan as king of hell. He's actually not, he is there as a pumichment too, and wants to get souls there because he is so evil and pridefull he hates the idea that others would have a better life (or afterlife haha) than him. He wants souls to suffer WITH him, out of hubris. And unlike in warriors, there is redemption, there is always hope and love. I know some bad apples make it seem like Christianity is this hostile, angry mob that would just get you to hell for stepping out of line and there is nothing you can do to save yourself because some stupid cats who made the exact same mistakes as you did would not let you into heaven... sorry where was I? Ah right, I just felt a bit hurt by putting all christians lumped together again as the Sunday School Moms. Be a good person, don't hurt others, try to do good, learn from your mistakes and grow better = that's what will get you to heaven, that's what I believe in. As long as you don't hurt anyone - you don't sin.
For example, what happened to Leafpool is freaking ridiculous, she suffered 4X times the weight of her mistake and was still shamed for it, not only by the society, which I could buy, but by their godlikeforce - which is for me stupid, unneeded and discusting. She didn't murder kits with cold blood, she didn't destroy their society, she didn't do anything BAD. She was teenager who fell in love and did everything she could to make up for that one "mistake", like, I can hear my Jesus cheering in the distance right at the moment she went back to the clans. But noooo we need more draaaama. The problem with Star Clan is that it's not a religion anymore - it's a magic system. So unlike in the first arc it has way more power, way more flaws and way more physical presence. Cats in the first arc used to gain knowledge, enlightment when they joined star clan, becoming parts of a bigger diety. Now they are just a pantheon of selfish, flawed and stupid, immoral hypocrites. They used to just be there and not do much, so they couldn't redeem themselves or change for worse so the problem of redemption or fall from grace was never an option... until cats turned into wizards.
If the Warriora world was built better, maybe the medicine cats would loose their connection to star clan after having kits (both genders) because of some spiritual mambo-jumbo. Like, they couldn't connect to cat's past because they connected to the future by birthing a new generation? Something stupid like that but at least some expIanation. An actual sacrifice with consequences. Imagine Leafpool loosing connection to Star Clan and Squirrelflight beeing the one recieving message from star clan about her adopting them, and Leafpool pretending to have a connection with Star Clan for the years to come? That would also explain the punishment, she would be lying, making up omens, to cove rup her tracks and that would be seen as bad because she doesn't want to admit to anycat that she had kits. Yellowfang too, would liek Mothwing, use her apprentices visions to talk with Star Clan after having Brokenkit... something, dunno, I took that straight from the hat right now, I'm sure smarter people than me would make up something that makes more sense.
I also highly dislike that in warriors every single belief is shown unquestionably as real. And that cats have basically the same systems = ancestors are with us and they are ghosts with powers over this world in some way. Like, can't we get some variety? What about a group of cats believing in Tiger, Leopard, Lion and Cheetah gods? Or something like that.
I hope I didn't came up as hostile here, I actually loved the video and agree with most of your points! Sorry for my english too, I'm from Poland.
You didn’t come off as hostile at all. It’s good getting a different perspective on how religion works in Warrior cats and how it translates to real life.
Seeing this, it feels rather like a potential interesting concept. Which is why I actually have my own lore and storyline where it revolves around (some specific) Starclan Cat who USED to be good and all that stuff, but as time went by the more they felt they're in power.
"AIR'CLAW" [Starclan Cat | Role : Antagonist, " They were once a free spirit, who helps ones in need much like the others. But as time pass, they slowly turn selfish, sadistic watching the living cats suffer a single help.]
"CLOUD'EYE" [Starclan Cat | Role : Antagonist, "With such deceiving look and their demeanor, they manipulated the living cats as they gave false prophecies just for the sake of entertainment]
"BLUE'SPLASH" [Starclan Cat | Role : Deutragonist, "One of the only Starclan cat who actually cared for the living cats, and the one who finally notice the wrongs Starclan had done as time progress."]
"ONE'EYE" [Dark Forest Cat | Role : Neutral, "A cat who broke the code, yet they understand they deserve this. But as time progress they slowly realize what Starclan is doing, yet their morals are still inbalance."]
Y'all know if Sunrise was written today the drama would've all about whether Hollyleaf was allowed to starclan or not
20:12 tbh, the whole idea of you dying in the dark forest, and then having your physical body cease to exist in the living world is actually horrifying. It’s the only death which would cause such an occurrence. I mean, maybe drowning inside a body of water like flametail, or falling off a cliff like smokepaw, would have your body trapped down there for eternity and would also cause somewhat of a similar effect, but overall your body still exists physically in the living world to an extent, right? It doesn’t just cease to exist - it’s still there, yet your clan mates are just unable to retrieve your body.
How would that even work? I know warriors is full of things that wouldn’t really be possible in reality, but the idea of a body ceasing to exist after dying in the DF just creeps me out so much. Not even reading Tigerstar’s death first hand made me feel this off. Like, how could a physical body with bones, muscle, and organs simply just not exist anymore in the living world? Does your body just fade away or disintegrate without even leaving any blood from your wounds? Or would it just suddenly blank out of the living world like you’re exiting a game or something??
Imagine dying in the dark forest, but your body completely disappears from your nest without a trace. However, your clan mates just assume you’ve went missing. Even imagining witnessing it first hand is soo creepy too. Like, you’re just peacefully resting beside your clanmate on a cool summer evening, and all is well, when all of a sudden they just start falling apart and fading away into thin air without any warning. Imagine how confused and horrified you’d be, to just watch them turn to dust before your eyes. All I can think about is if Crookedstar died while in the dark forest and Willowbreeze had to witness it all in front of her… now that would’ve stuck with me as a kid.
I’m glad I’m finding out about this as a teenager because I know for a fact this would’ve kept me awake at night as a kid, but even now it’s still super unsettling.
Sorry for the long comment, I just thought this would be an interesting thing to point out a bit :,)
Personally, I like the idea of those in control of the afterlife being flawed and making mistakes, if the media acknowledges it. It would be much more interesting if StarClan was written to be flawed, similar to how the gods of Greek and Aztec mythology messed up all the time and fought with each other.
This is also why (major spoilers!! under the space)
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I have a original novel idea (once I finish my current NA post-apocalyptic trilogy) of a cat that’s chosen to stop an immortal tyrant but all other Chosen Ones before her have failed and no one knows why.
Turns out the blood sacrifices the antagonist has been committing gives the gods more power which they like. However in order to keep the masses from rioting and losing their faith-which the gods need in order to exist-the gods foretell that a Chosen One will stop the tyrant but put all the obstacles in the CO’s way to kill them before they can actually succeed. (Sort of a “have your cake and eat it too”, situation).
So the “divine beings” actually end up being the true antagonists.
Thank you for your interesting takes and analysis on the way Starclan has been revealed and evolved over the many books! It's nice to see this topic set up in a concise video. I can tell there was a lot of effort in that! I enjoy that the Erins want to explore Starclan/The Dark Forest more, but they aren't taking the series in the right directions... I really wish there wasn't so many retcons and sexist standards in this beloved series...
Just wanna also say that you're super underrated and I hope you're able to gain more popularity as time goes on! You're honestly on Moonkitti tier in my eyes. Keep up the amazing Warriors content and continue to share your personal opinions - I love it!
Thank you for this kind comment. I honestly have no words. Thank you!
The way I interpret Starclan fading if no living cats believe in it isn't that it stops existing; rather it just loses all power to influence the living world and communicate with it.
The way Starclan resembles “fire and brimstone” Christian/catholic ideals could be hours and hours of content.
Couldn't have agreed more! StarClan is just so... disgusting to me. It could have been an interesting concept if the books actually tried to point out how corrupt they are. It seems like a character to bring it up and then it's completely forgotten about. It's baffling to me how a book about cats fighting each other in the woods is one of the most bigoted things I've ever read...
Starclan made sense in series 1.
It was okay in series 2.
Series 3 threw sense making out the window.
here's a thought. in our world, we do not have not have rock solid proof that the afterlife exists. in warriors, they do. which poses the question, Why live? we know that starclan is the afterlife you will go to unless you are an evil tyrant murderer (or juniperclaw), and the clans fight and starve so much, that there really is no reason to live anymore. furthermore, if you end up in the dark forest, why would you not get another spirit to kill you? to not exist is much better than to be tormented, (which I would argue the dark forest does less of than the living world) so why spend your time there choosing to be tortured?
Love the reference to the Good Place, and because of that show for my personal afterlife for my own stories is heavily inspired from TGP.
And honestly I think, though doubt it’ll happen, that something similar should happen in warriors. It’ll be so refreshing and new.
the erins: starclan are clearly all good and flawless and in no way wrong.
anyone with eyes: idk these starclan fellas seem kinda shady
WOAH I was just thinking about making a video discussing StarClan! I feel even more inspired by your video!! Wonderful work I hope to see more of your content in the future!! 💖💞
EDIT 30MINS LATER SINCE I JUST FINISHED THE WHOLE VID…
The commentary on the sexism and use of Christianity in this story is too accurate. It’s terrifying that these writers and overall viewers don’t always acknowledge these factors.
(I NEED to make a video on this topic too as I have way too much to just add to this comment!)
But the fact that no one no characters properly speak on the issues in their society and use the idea of lot of Christian teachings (to my knowledge) of lying is the same as someone killing someone for them to both be given the same punishment and go to cat hell is horrendous. The overall idea that these religious cats using their own faith to manipulate one another is horrifying. Honestly it would have been amazing to see this series branch off into the pain this cat religion holds and actually comment on it and maybe even change their ways would have been AMAZING the overall conservative way this series is written has a way bigger effect on the audience than this series is given credit of (I started to read this series when I was still very religious so when I was about 11) so the lack of actual understanding of these cats just ignoring their own society when they will hardly actually talk about their own issues outside of “bad man in StarClan” instead of truly speaking on their own hypocrisy is horrifying.
It truly could have been so interesting if this series had instead used the overall cat afterlife as a viewpoint of how religion and how different cultures evolve the starting point of a religion- it would have been so interesting if the series really looked at the different cat groups interpretations of their afterlife and their cultural evolution, that would have been such a good way to bring into the series the discussion of sexism and the biased rules set by a bunch of long dead people. Seeing how these cats would ultimately create their own hell on earth through unfair and unquestioning following of the warrior code. Maybe delving into different clans and their own stance on their conservatism too, and eventually breaking down the rules and understanding the nuances of their “current day” cat society!
Idk I am rambling here so sorry if I got a bit wild with my ideas but I think actually using the reflection of society and our own association with religions would be so interesting especially since with every cat cultures differing beliefs it would make sense that there are a lot of inconsistencies.
Also probs would be best for the writers to have toned back the interaction of the cat afterlife with the living world since it wasn’t very well transitioned and the use of atheist cats and their treatment was horrendous they treated them like fools!!
Okay I’m done!! I’ll get my brain sorted one day plz ask me questions as a person who was once very more intensely religious I would love to discuss more how warriors could have better represented someone with a developing and questioning out look on religion goes
I always thought that Tigerstar 1 died because StarClan just refused to heal him. I think that that definitely would’ve been the biggest blow to his ego and a more poetic death.
I honestly stopped reading the books a long time ago because of StarClan's portrayal and the books weird hatred towards Atheists. Yeah, like every "atheist" cat that sees StarClan is just willfully denying their existence, and if they don't follow the code they murder kittens and starve elders for no reason. "You don't follow our ways? Well obviously that means you have no morality! You're just gonna kill all the time, obviously!" Really insulting. Especially since StarClan has no place to judge anyone for anything when their crimes far outweigh most of the cats they condemn.
Loved this video! It sums up the problems with Starclan very well. It's giving me inspiration for my own version of Starclan for my ocs, so thank for that! Also you've earned a subscriber :)
Somebody needs to keep an eye on the Erin’s, I feel like one of them might be in a cult with how they write the clans nowadays
Just one of them? /j
I feel like they all in a cult in some way... The way they are acting..is enough to warrant suspicion
I just wanted to say that I've been poking through your videos on and off, and I'm really impressed! Your audio quality is really well handled, and your annunciation helps even my exhausted audio processing after handling college homework. It helps me properly hear what you're offering in your analysis, which are some of the most interesting I've heard in the Warrior Cats fanbase as a whole. Hope to see more in the future!
I honestly would love to see sleekwhisker and the non believers again.
Moth Flight: Yaaaaaayyyyyy, every fiber of my being belongs to StarClan, what a great message to children!
I remember reading Squirrelflight's Hope and the trial completely threw me off- especially with two famous code breakers standing as judges (Bluestar, Yellowfang, I'm lookin at you two- Yellowfang especially because she not only was a medicine cat, but she also birthed Brokenstar, one of the most notorious killers in Warriors)
I love the idea of a neutral ground for spirits to go when their actions in life are still being judged; I think it would be amazing to see something like that in the Warriors series!
Also lemme just say that Juniperclaw should've been allowed in StarClan after the AVoS arc and I will die on this hill
"Resurrection is possible, remember what whenever a kit dies from greencough" or a hawk. still salty about snowkit's death.
Starclan: Sacrifice everything you are for the GREATER GOOD.
Me: No wonder Starclan isn’t so moral, anymore. Starclan has become Grindelwald.
Great video and amazing points. StarClan's behavior in A Light in the Mist and in Squirrelflight's Hope were the most abborent in my opinion. Nearly condemning innocent cats and saying it doesn't matter if people improve after death (which is also condemning a now innocent person imo) is disgusting
As the entirety of the video shows, StarClan/afterlife lore has never been super consistent and frustrating to deal with but by far the addition/change that enrages me the most is the new team's introduction of those *bullshit* trials. If this was something StarClan started doing after arc 4 and they are setting up a StarClan villain arc, *then* I could maybe find intrigue in it. But since they put it like this is something StarClan have always done it's just enraging. StarClan prior to the new team's lead never decided who to take in and who not (something you've shown here as well)
By changing this to a trial you not only make this all kinds of wrong, you also make it a lot less unique. Instead of cats more or less choosing their afterlife, we get an uncreative heaven and hell imitation - and an extremely cheap one at that. One where people rightfully have to ask why X cat gets to be in StarClan but Y doesn't. Admittedly people were asking that before but that stemmed more of the misconception that someone decided over where they go.
On top of all this it makes the "good" spirits look like assholes. And the worst thing is the team behind it doesn't even seem to notice what they turned StarClan into
Does anyone feel like the clans are becoming more and more like a cult? Like, ableist, sexist, authoritarian, fanatism, how everyone is related somehow... I dunno might be just my imagination.
I always thought the clans were a cult just in split groups
@@meeplol145 I mean, in the first arc they felt more like a xenophobic warrior society to me, and I really thought that with the arrival of a kittypet they would reevaluate their views and maybe get rid of the most culty stuff? Like, specially if StarClan wasn't so bad in the first arc and the whole "fire will save the clan" thing! I dunno, it always felt like a buildup to changing the (stupid) established rules?
@@SpaceGirlLaika Honestly, I don’t know why the clans STILL don’t think kittypets are all that even though they were proven multiple times that they could be great fighters. And ye, I heard of the rule change. I haven’t gotten to the book where it does change but I heard many say it’s pointless? Or should’ve been done sooner.
@@meeplol145 There's a whole clan with kittypet warriors, like how stubborn and prejudiced can they be?
Yup, it's still pointless and I don't think it solves any problems addressed before! I dunno if the writers lack self awareness or something… Honestly, I just think they got more culty and it's really getting tiresome to keep up with the series too
@@SpaceGirlLaika It just seems like the clan have forgotten that their LEADER was a kittyepet. Foxleap was literally like “But, it’s a KITYYPET” in front of Squirrelflight in Omen Of The Stars. And Lionblaze thinks to himself that he’ll never look at kittypets as lazy even though he has kittypet blood and FIRESTAR is a kittypet, Dovewing has Kittypet blood too! Oh! Then there’s Millie and Cloudtail who are both Kittypets. I swear- it’s like the clans forget that they have kittypet in them now, the other clans sure do love to remind them and they get defensive when it’s brought up even though they still don’t like Kittypets themselves??
And yes, the clans seem more and more like a cult now-
Do you guys think starclan’s hunting grounds is like, squirrel hell /j
okay why has nobody said that yet. it’s the *place of no squirrels*
The thing about medicine cats not having kits always gets me because there is a PERFECTLY acceptable reasoning if the erins were really set on the rule existing.
That being that it could DANGEROUS for medicine cats to have kits, not only the for the litter themselves, but for the mother. Medicine cats are constantly dealing with herbs, herbs that have been STATED to be dangerous to queens like tansy or poppy seeds. A simple line about "Medicine cats are far more likely to lose their kits or their own life during pregnancy than other warriors, we've forbidden it for their own safety" to hand-wave the rule would've been a thousand times better than some obviously flawed excuse about clan loyalty.
As for male medicine cats? Perhaps over time it became taboo for toms to have kits as well. Or it could be used as a plot device to delve into gender inequality in the clans if male medicine cats ARE allowed to have kits.
I personally like the drama the no-kits rule adds, I think it's interesting, but the way they go about it is entirely stupid.
"One medicine cat couldn't handle kits, so no one else can" is so much more stupid of an explanation than "A history of medicine cats and their kits losing their lives have caused us to prohibit it for their own safety."
I mean Squrrielflight’s Hope is probably a pinnacle in realizing starclan’s faults
SquirrelFlight questions starclans morality
Starclan wanted to deny her her (and Leafpool’s) spot because they did what they were asked to
:/ they really aren’t consistent
The books don’t even acknowledge (in the Broken Code, at least) that Firestar CONTINUOUSLY broke the warrior code.
THAT'S
THAT'S THE
THE BOTW SHRINE MUSIC
IN THE BACKGROUND
God I play that game too much
Wow! I just found your channel and I absolutely loved this video. Your way of explaining things and telling your opinions is really clear. I loooove bunnies
I’m trying to find a way to write a future version of the clans breaking off from Starclan, and make lore for how it got this bad
SkyStar and his girlboss wife StarFlower have been running the place the entire time, and the deities above of them are called the cluster!
Deities are assigned as god-like spirit guides for everyone, and the higher powers don’t even care for the earth, they just dropped deities down and left them to do anything they wanted as they did whatever
The three, Midnight, Rock, Shadowsight, and Squilf are some deities
Great video, I love long videos like this, I love listening to people talk so this was very nice
I also want to say that I'm very sure you'll go far and grow quickly ! The video was very well done and your voice is pleasent to listen to, all the best to you :]
This is a really good video, clear and informative. I agree, starclan is SO flawed and outright disgusting at this point.
It’s especially even more gross considering the concept of warriors was “inspired” by Native Americans, or rather, the harmful stereotypes of Native Americans that a few white british women didn’t bother unlearning. To have the series have all these anti-Indigenous problems with its story, characters, and worldbuilding; adding in an absolute fire and brimstone punishing heaven/hell dynamic when that’s something only xtians believe in takes it to a whole ‘nother level of WHAT THE FUCK D:
It’s insulting and infuriating beyond most words at this point.
I’ve been waiting for more of your videos, yay!!
I feel like there is a lyric from Jonathen Youngs the children of the night "so I heaven is filled with the likes of them, we dine in hell instead" this is the vibe I'm getting
I love the long discussion videos so much!!
just suscribed last night, exactly the video i needed for background noise
I believe that before season 5 and beyound the idea was that cats go to starclan or dark forest based on what stories are told of them. Hense cats fade over time unless your mothflight or one of the founders of the clans etc. This also explains how Ashfur ends up in starclan instead of dark forest; Ashfur was a good cat in thunder clan cat's minds.
I have an oc that a clan named Hopeclan is very religious following starclan as if they are the only thing that they need and Vixenpaw was part of that. Starclan tells a prophecy about her and a dark forest hears over this tricking the leader and starclan doesn't try anything to stop it leading to her being blamed on being a fox and getting exiled tramatizing the young cat.
That was Ash Ketchum's voice actress narrating for the Squirrelflight's Hope segments
First and early also I bet this video will be amazing and your so underrated
Edit:I was right this is amazing and I do think they're villains now well possibly half bad half good
I’m glad you liked the video!
While I don’t think they are villains, they aren’t always doing the good that they think they are. Half bad half good like you said
So I do apologize if this is out of line somehow but this video just absolutely inspired me to do a Warriors fanfic with a The Good Place style plot! Not one for one of course. If you happen to read this would you like me to credit you as the inspiration?
If you want to credit me as inspiration for the fanfic feel free. A Good Place style Warrior Cats fic sounds exciting!
I gave up a long time ago keeping track of everything because of the retcons and some names being so similar. Branon Fur and Bramble Claw would turn into each other so many times in my head listening to the books before Bramble gets his Star.
This video is amazing although it hasn't been shown who sends starclan prophesies I hope if they ever do they aren't treated like starclan was with them being perfect but dumb with leaps in logic to justify their choices in order progress the plot.
I actually have my own headcannon of who sends the prophesies I imagine once a cat dies as a spirit or fades away they come to a large field with areas around it surrounded with separate with marshes and rivers for cats from all clans to feel at home. There would be no evil afterlife for this cats from the dark forest, starclan, ghosts, etc all go there. They can contact cats for hugs and to comfort one another but when a cat tries to attack another the attacker go right through the cat they were trying to harm. All cats there could look into the large lake near the center of it all to see the living plane and starclan and all could see the future but none could interact with it via going to starclan or the clans. The first cat of each clan to fade away or die along with one from the dark forest would be the ones able to send prophesies. Since they had been there for so long they held no grudges or hate towards any cat, clan, or bloodline. All cats would talk about there lives often there and even cats that newly joined them even from the dark forest despite being presumed bad cats were welcomed and encouraged to talk about there feelings whether they were tigerstar or snowtuft along with everyone in between.
I got very descriptive with that lol tysm for reading
Your video is so cathartic
If I could describe the Warriors series in one word:
Bruh
I saw the whole problem with Starclan and decided to make an oc where they are the villain. In this oc they intentionally send morally gray or good cats that made mistakes to the Dark Forest to fuel their control over the living cats by strictly enforcing the Warrior Code down to a tee. Buuuut some living cats are confused and angry when their old friend visits them from cat hell and says Starclan sent them there for no real reason and things go crazy from there.
I also made lightning a symbol a Starclan cat’s presence to show that they’re using their power to intimidate the living into following their command (cuz lightning is scary and powerful).
i wonder if the authors are portraying starclan as a manipulative and culty as well as pure and good is purposeful.
perhaps they're trying to push the clan's views of starclan onto the viewers so that the gradual realization that starclan is bad gives the readers a sense of betrayal in the same way it does for the characters?
I made a neutral place in my warrior cats fanfiction. It’s called the Silver Forest.
Alright, so:
Series 1: cat heaven
Series 2: cat hell
Series 3: three cats powerful than entire cat heaven..?
Series 4: cat hell fight cat heaven????
i really just want something terrible to happen to starclan for them to understand the consequences of their actions
5:50 Tree got it from his connection with the Sisters, as the Sisters (group of she-cat (rogues?)) have this ability to see spirits walking in the real world
As a catholic I would like to point out that even we have Purgatory instead of just Heaven and Hell. Being more fundamentalist that Roman Catholic Church is quite an achievement.
StarClan is a power full strong and mysterious place there are trials to see weather you can or can not go to StarClan over the course of the books StarClan just seems to grow stronger and stronger ,but there are some why moments such as in "Exile From ShadowClan" StarClan only decided to give NightStar 1 instead 9 live all because BrokenStar voted sometimes StarClan does help out like giving guides and directions to the living world!
Yeah dads in warriors don't have any expectation to parent... several instances where the moms take all responsibility and the dads basically aren't involved at all have occurred, and instances where the mom is uncomfortable with that arrangement are nonexistent or portray her as in the wrong. ALSO. Sometimes the identity of the father is hidden completely, allowing males to basically escape judgement or consequences for breaking the code if they were in a forbidden romance or a medicine cat. I know we have no confirmed instances of the latter but there's no reason it couldn't have happened and female medicine cats have always had a harder time concealing these instances and dealing with the results..
I remember while reading Power of Three, I just started to miss the structure/world of the first arc, so I closed the current book and began rereading Into the Wild (which gave me an "here's the magic of these books" feeling). But yeah, I remember, and miss, when the story was "here's some cats out there going through daily life", and not "here's a magical land, with supernatural cats, oh and here's a bunch of scenes that confirmes what happenes to dead cats and how their afterlife is going".
I know the 1st arc wasn't 100% realistic (bloodclan cats having dog claws covering their own claws, really erins?), and it was more cool than world breaking for me when we got to actually see Firestar's leader ceremony, and what it was like losing a life, but it wasn't shoved in every cat's face or "there" as a major part of the story/overall plot for the rest of the 5 books (plus prophecies/warnings was, for the most part, - can only think of Firestar seeing himself as a lion as an exception - , sent through things that could actually occure in nature, or through downright nightmare filled dreams). Same with powers. Leafpool and Squirrelflight's connecting didn't really breake immertion for me, as it's the type of power you hear some people say they have as well. Same with Goosefeather's and Yellowfang's, plus they were all some generations apart, and the only ones of their generation (across all the clans as well).
Then Power of Three, and later the other arcs, came out, and suddenly we have 3 main cats with (more unrealistic, so to speak) powers at the same time (which can be taken away now), all 3 plus one extra cat are reincarnations, apperently 2 spirits can be in 1 body now (and the "passenger" can just up and leave to go to the afterlife later down the line on their own) you can be forced to dream/go to different places while sleeping, what happenes in dreams affects you in the waking world (be it wounds or straight up dying), timetravel exsists now, you can affect the past, their afterlives are just places you can pop in and out off, your body could become possessed, your spirit could become mind controlled, there's a cat and another animal who has been around since apperently the dawn of time and holds more knowledge about their world than their afterlife does, you can in fact die twice, your body and spirit can just be erased from exsistance (different from dying as a spirit who has already left its dead body) , everyone! can just see the spirits of their dead ancestores bouncing around right after their body dies and before they go to Starclan.
Had they only introduced reincarnation, it would have, while been a bit of a leap from the last 2 arcs, been better in my eyes, as some religions do have it as part of their belief, and most cats doesn't know that they are or who they were before, so it would have been easier to accept that big change/addition to the world/lore building. But with everything else they made canon at the same time it just became too much too fast, and it ripped away all the mystery, wonder and appeal of the first series.
Also, I really appriciated Leafpool (and Squirrelflight) a lot more after Squirrelflight's Hope. Starclan's 100% put them up to this. They forced and manipulated them to take this part and have this be their destiny. And then they have the gall to ask why they should be allowed to stay instead of going to the Dark Forest due to how their life played out and the situation they were in?
The cats judging them had done the exact same things themselves, without Starclan pushing them and blocking every other path, and yet instead of bowing their heads, apologicing and treating Leafpool and Squirrelflight like heros, they act high and mighty and question if the sisters are worthy of joining them at their side instead of banishing them to the Dark Forest for choices the Starclan cats themselves set up for and made for them with 0 regards for the two sisters because it was oh so important to all the clans and Starclan itself?
This book really made me dislike Starclan, and honestly I would see it as a win at this point if the series ends with the clan cats tearing themselves away from Starclan and actually lives their own lives. If we ever does get that warriors movie, I would see it as a positive change if they stick with keeping Starclan how it was in the first 6 books (if they get more than one movie).
Can you imagine if the trail scene had involved Ashfur as one of the cats shown as worthy of staying in Starclan with the, hypocrit, judge cats while they looked down on and asked Squirrelflight and Leafpool to pleade for their case in order to convince them?
Plus the scene where, Mothflight I think, says that it didn't have to be Jay, Holly and Lion, and that they could have chosen any cats for the prophecy. 1st, so that a new power they apperently have that came out of nowhere. 2nd, so even when the option to choose a warrior with a mate in the same clan was there, they still decided that it had to be Leafpool who needed to be given the task that goes against her way of life as a medicine cat and! a clan cat? That really didn't make them look any better.
Ashfur being in Starclan in the 1st place opens the can of worms that, apperently it's really easy to just lie yourself in. Some moments of groveling and saying you're oh so very sorry, and Starclan will apperently go "oh ok then, no worries. Welcome in", and just sweep any action under the rug. Plus it's the fact that when he 1st appeared as a Starclan cat, Starclan claimed that they had no say in who got there or not, just that the cat's spirit will find its way if it's worthy, so Ashfur apperently didn't even have to convince anybody.
If Starclan's only! interaction with/words to Leafpool during this entire time had been "Follow your heart", I could have understood why they would have been dissapointed in Leafpool at the end (and how they could have felt that they obviously meant follow your heart towards your work, family and your loyalty to your code). However!, that would not change the fact that she absolutely didn't deserve a trail and risk going to the dark forest, seeing how Bluestar and Yellowstone had done the exact same thing, and was still seen as these big figures in the afterlife. Heck, Greystripe was seen as worthy enough to instantly be guided to Starclan after having done the exact! same as Leafpool, and Firestar is the most praised cat of all, when he broke the code and went behind his clan's back several times before he become leader (with his only reasoning being that it was the right thing to do/the better outcome/for the greater good to do so, and apperently Starclan was fully onboared with him all those time, cause it's never showen being brought up/never showen it being thrown in Firestar's face as a negative example about him). The Erins seriously, down right ruined Starclan, and most likely only put that scene in cause they wanted one more moment of drama/tention.
The fact that the Erins sat there and thought "Cat who birthed 2 of the crusial cats for the clans continued survival/exsistance, cat who devoted her her life to her clan expect for 1 day w/Crowfeather and when having to give birth, cat whom found the place that makes it so we're able to actually watch over and communicate with the clans, cat who was loyal to us and followed our every word/order even when it means living in pain and judgement for it. This! cat, totally needs to defend why we shouldn't chuck her with cats who wanted to destroy and/or control the clans and had no problem leaving a river of blood behind them in order for them to reach their goal. Cause obviously! her actions are so much worse than ex-es that wants to axe off kits that has the mix of the blood of a she-cat he liked and a tom that isn't him, and! his leader because of that fact, a cat that let a rival leader take over her clan and axe off any of her clan mates he saw fit, and a cat that gave his full support and freely/gladly followed two! leaders in their quest to destroy/control all the other clans for their own sake/for their own, destructive, selfsentered wants". 🙄 Sure, that makes perfect/logical sense.
I'm wondering if it would actually count as victim blaming. "The tom who nearly killed your kits, two whom we all need for the sake of everyone's future! , and plotted with the enemy to kill your father, whom was also! needed for the same prophecy, and kind off somewhat succseeded regarding how Firestar did lose one life, gets to stay cause he was motivated with too much love towards you little she-cat, and he didn't actually! succseede in ending the life of 4! different clanmates. You! though?! How dare! you be fueled with love for some random tom and bring the very same life into this world that all the clans depended on exsisting in order to keep our group going, you bitch?! Explaine yourself in other ways than "We ordered!/maniuplated! you to do it as our world needs to go on!". If not victim blaming, then certainly sexist.
Also, while Quick Water is long gone, Shadowstar sure isn't. She should definetly had spoken up for Juniperclaw, seeing how the cat that axed her off and tried to destroy her clan was granted, apperently, automatic access into StarClan along with her by simply just saying one "Sorry, that was wrong of me" line.
(Had to add this here, as it refused to save the original comment when I added it there). Just imagine if the story where that StarClan has! to follow the warrior code, cause their whole, living life revolved around that, and if they don't, why should they expect the living cats do it in order to honor them? That would explain, and cause conflict, with why cats like Brokenstar, Tigerstar and Blackstar got their 9 lives. They were the deputy rightfully chosen, and the leader is dead, so it's now their duty/destiny to take over/fill the position, and the cats (both living and StarClan) just has to hope that the cat doesn't cause misery and pain, with a new cat ready to continue that reality as deputy. Plus it would support the "we don't/can't control you and decide your life for you" mindset of theirs, even in situations where the living cats probably would want! the StarClan cats themselves to come down and demand/force a differance. That could also be used to explain why Nightstar didn't get any extra lives. By law Brokenstar was their rightful leader, and he had not held/chosen Nightstar as his deputy (not a good reasoning considering the situation and that the whole mess would be solved by granting him his 9 lives, but it would keep the "we're bound by the code and can't interfere with your still living life" world building consistant, and paint StarClan in a more grey light, instead of showing them as a force of ultimate right/good, cause they know Brokenstar, Tigerstar and Blackstar's pasts, and what they could/would do to their clan/to the clans upon being granted ultimate power, and they still choose to stick to the code, that was made so that the living cats can be viewed favourably by them, no matter what and risk everything and keep the suffering/ruin going). And also for situations where both the leader and deputy is dead, StarClan would still have to let the living cats decide/vote for who should lead them next, in order for them to actually be in control of and living their own lives (maybe the 4 first leaders would have something to say, as they were chosen by their very first ancestores, and knows what that situation is/feels like, and choose the cat that would have been chosen as the next deputy had the old one not died before they became leader, but the rest of StarClan would stand to the side in order to not pull any strings and puppeteer any cat, and because that "destined to be the next deputy" mentioned cat might now have a new destiny that could/should play out - sort of like Cinderpelt suddenly being ripped from the warrior path and put on the medicine cat path -. Could cause some tension between the different StarClan cats as well, so show how they're still mostly just like what they were like when they were alive).
Also, something that could have helped the cats when it comes to getting judged. Show flashes of the newly dead cat's life, based on their feelings during/after their bad/evil deeds, had they ended up living to an old age instead. Would they have lived a life of regret and/or trying to atone, or would they have been happy with their crimes, and/or gone on to do more rule breaking? Sure, it might sound too out there and too magical/mystical, but I say f it, seeing how we at this point already have timetravel, reincarnation, timeloop (modern Jayfeather affects the ancient's lives so that they can become the clans and Jayfeather can be reborn), the connection between the living world and the afterlife can be cut off (using vines, twigs or whatever it was) spirits that has been alive since the dawn of time as they're cursed to live forever, dying while dreaming, summoning spirits/ghosts, being erased from all/every plaine of exsistance, spirits/ghosts being able to be killed a second time even though they don't have a body that relies on air or blood, bodypossession, manipulation/control over spirits/ghosts, cats with magical powers, and spirits/ghosts can come down/show themselves and physically help out a living cat in trouble anyway.
And, While Quick Water is long gone, Shadowstar sure isn't. She should definetly had spoken up for Juniperclaw, seeing how the cat that axed her off and tried to destroy her clan was granted, apperently, automatic access into StarClan along with her by simply just saying one "Sorry, that was wrong of me" line. The trails StarClan have should really include StarClan cats who have broken the same code and gotten in, who are willing to speak on the behalf off and support the cat being judged.
Ayyy 700th sub! :D
I like to think that smallstar might be salty about the fact they brought back tigerstar 2.0
11:30 so, tigerstar is Freddy Krueger?
I kinda miss the old StarClan...
I honestly think Moth Flight is just full of herself and that the Three would've had their powers anyway. We've seen that she looks down on Leafpool for not following her no-mates-no-kits rule that she only put into place because she was bad at parenting lmao.
i think Skywatcher was like Midnight and Rock. what cats would pass down the knowledge away from any other Clans and fully understand it if they, themselves werent clan cats? it doesnt make sense why any kittypets would WANT to remember any of that life, if it brought them so much misery, let alone give that knowledge to other cats. similar thing for rogues and loners. i think he was more alive than them, and was granted the power of time travel/i n f i n i t e k n o w l e d g e. i think he wasnt really a living cat, and that was just his physical death, not his spiritual, because that ended a long time ago. he mentioned his mother taught him about the clans i think (i may be wrong, i havent read Firestar's Quest in a bit) but what if that was because she was a StarClan/SkyClan cat? that part is doubtful, especially because i dont remember, which leads me to believe that it was StarClan's power that allowed Skywatcher to see and understand what happened. he also gave a prophecy before his death. that could be his knowledge, pouring out his mouth because StarClan didnt want what he knew lost forever.
The worldbuilding, story structuring, and characterization and just flat-out writing as a whole has dropped in quality sharply as time has gone on. Long past the point where many fanfics are better than the actual series.
Personally nothing beyond The Last Hope exists to me. Stuff (and characters themselves) just started getting way too dumb, and you get overpowered villains like Darktail, who's so unbeatable and strong except when he fights his daddy, and Ashfur who just somehow now has world-altering superpowers, effortless ghost mind-control, afterlife passage blocking, and body possession, cause he's just THAT much of a super special boy. They're on the same tier as someone's edgy overpowered OC insert
Gonna be live tweeting my reactions
I’m going to Morb all over you just like Micheal Morbius in the hit movie Morbius (it released in theaters twice)
@@SunneyRabbit I love when sunney rabbit said “it’s Sunney rabbiting time” and rabbited all over the place
I don’t understand why Kingdom Hearts is considered the worst written franchise when crap like this in Warrior Cats
Is it just me or does spotted leaf seem like the ceo of starclan
She is the one to always give guidance and advise