Here are my thoughts on the hanger being above or below the flange. If the nut or the top of the cone with the nut breaks, in both cases the hanger will pop out. If the top doesn't break, then: 1) If the hanger is ABOVE the flange, it will engage with the nut and pull the cone. However, it will engage the bottom of the cone with the sleeve more and more, so the sleeve will be "pushed" from the bottom together with the cone, expanding it more. I don't think there is a possibility of the cone slipping out of the sleeve. Based on this and the break tests footage (6:46), the most probable scenario is when the hanger is bending the top of the cone, causing it to break. 2) If the hanger is BELOW the flange, it will still engage and pull on the nut, which will in turn pull the cone (exactly as in case 1). If the bolt is properly tightened (so the bottom of the sleeve is expanded before any load), I don't think it will cause the sleeve to slip (since the nut is blocking that), but there's an issue of the sleeve not getting more expanded when the hanger is pulled. However, both the cone and the sleeve are pulled, which makes it harder for the top to bend and break (that seems to be the case in your break tests 6:39). So based on these speculations, putting the hanger below the flange is not a death wish, especially when pulled in shear, IF the bolt is tightened. It might even reinforce the top of the cone. When pulled in tension, it seems to be the case that the hanger will pop out of the flange and will be pulling on the nut anyways (as visible on your break test footage 4:24). Please take it with a grain of salt, there are just my thoughts on how it would theoretically work, I've never worked with bolts nor am I a mechanical engineer.
i was at Yosemite Saturday and thought of you and your channel, love your videos and the test you do. Thank You!! Im always questioning on sand stone but wow i learn some stuff today.
I would love to see a comparison of common bolt pull out forces depending on the angle of pull! A bolt in a vertical wall will mostly see force perpendicular to the bolt but what about a 45 degree overhanging sport route with the force closer to inline with the bolt?
I wonder if the sand stone was higher because it would tilt to an almost 45 degree angle. A 45 degree break test on the concrete would be interesting so it would be pulling on the bolt in both a lateral pull and shear.
You could try adding a heavy duty washer between the hanger and nut. It may keep it from stretching and going over the nut. Could help in overall strength for the test. And if you put the hanger above the flange it seems like you may get a little bit more length in the hole, every inch or quarter inch could count. what's the best way to send hardware to be broken?
something about the smaller hole shearing the bolt off, the bigger hole has a larger and smoother surface area which transfers the load over a slightly bigger area, the smalle on above just shears the top off because the trhead is allready cut shaped and has a smaller diameter in total. also the larger one is pulling on the whole shaft creating more friction overall, the smaller one is pulling "just "on the bolt .
Maybe the stretching/elasticity of the sleeve means that putting the hangar below is insignificant to the wedgie action down the bottom of the hole? I'd have been horrified to put the hangar below, but if it makes little difference... **Thanks** for the video, as soon as I saw these I thought, those would be great for boltbusters to bust!!
Well from the way the bolt failed, the position of the hanger does not influence the measured force. They just shear off in half on all pulls; the dyno readouts are basically the shear strength of the shaft of the bolt in all your pulls. Had the bolt slipped out, that may have been related to the position of the hanger pulling out the sleeve/cone.
Check out boltbusters on homepage of slackline.com. CTRL F and see all our sandstone tests. Did 100 different things. All videos are also available, the folders are named by sample number. Enjoy the rabbit hole
Fixe claims the collar should go on top of the hanger. You'll want to install them this way if you hope to remove them in the future. Most climbers feel safer with the collar under the hanger for the reasons you explain, but your data suggests it doesn't matter, which is comforting to see. I have also occasionally found that they just want to spin rather than tighten during installation, but if you pull up on the nut a little to seat the cone into the sleeve then they usually will tighten without the need to put a 1kN lateral force on them as you show. ruclips.net/video/j0zK9VvKMn0/видео.html
Well the "sleeve" sits against the nut anyways, so when you pull at the hanger, the sleeve and the bolt get pulled together and the sleeve doesn't move on the bolt. In the concrete tests it was the bolt that broke, so in that case, the sleeve ads some meat that has to be bend and snapped and thereby the strength is higher. And you need to put the hanger under the sleeve so you can remove it bit unscrewing the nut and pulling the sleeve out, the bold then sits in the hole lose. At least that's what i would say.
i think the most logical way to put the hanger is bellow the flange and the nut, because that way you are not just pulling the flange because the nut stops it from sliping. in other words you distribute the force on the flange the nut and the central rod, but if you put it below the nut above the flange more force is on the nut threads and the central rod. I could be wrong it is best if some construction worker who works for a big company answerd that, because that big company would not wont to put their bolts the wrong way and risk someone dying.
@@bobbyhutton1989 I was also curious what exactly those were, and I scrounged this up: www.niteroiense.org.br/resumo-do-estudo-de-grampos-no-brasil/ I also stumbled on this... which has a photo of the "P" about halfway down the page. Not only do those welds do NOT inspire confidence, but it sounds like they aren't glued at all... they're just hammered into the hole. 😬 Skeeetchy. blogdescalada.com/saiba-quais-sao-as-protecoes-fixas-existentes-para-a-pratica-da-escalada/ Sidenote: I *must* find one of these folded "flapper" hangers to add to my weird-ass bolt hangers collection... it would look so nice next to my Petzl Clown
@@rachelhasbruises Thanks for research. Interesting that the welded but is just a keeper and the load is held by the rod. I believe the double sided Bonier hangers aren't too hard to find. If memory serves they come in a ton of colors. www.bonier.com.br/dupla
@@bobbyhutton1989 Yes , i have some pretty good photos of them . i can send them to you by mail or on instagram or some other media. @botapracima is my instagram profile.
How can I get your mailing address, I would like to send you a a dozen 1/2 bolts that you can use and maybe break a few. I would like to know if what I’m using is good or bad.
you said "we got pretty much higher in the sandstone" when comparing to concrete. I think you were reading the 75mm column because you got significantly lower in sandstone when comparing both same size anchors in sheer.
That's true. The rock broke with the 55m bolts in sandstone, so technically it's not the bolts which fail at lower forces. I'd guess that it doesn't really matter whether it's sandstone or concrete if the bolt is long enough to properly engage with the rock.
@@ukaszrybak3877 its not a begining highline one is but it leaves out specificks like amount of steel shackles where to buy them where to buy other gear, easiest ways to save money
Putting the hanger on the bolt vs flange, it would seem obvious that the bolt config would be best. So its surprising to me that they are about the same/sleeve is slightly better. I was concerned pulling on the sleeve would loosen the wings and possibly pull the bolt out of the hole. Since that isn't happening and the metal is shearing, pulling on the flange must be slightly stronger due to it have more metal to shear through. If it was axial loading, I would never want to pull on the flange for fear it would pull the whole bolt out.
Interesting bolt. The removability seems nice. I'd be real interested in how screw anchors (such as Simpson's TitenHD) do in real rock. I assume they would be great in granite and terrible in sandstone, but who knows. I like the idea of being able to use screw anchors in rock for removability.... because screws.
all our anchors holding down the hydraulics were TitanHD screws. They are pretty wallowed out after about 50 tests and I don't recommend them for sandstone but for everything else they are amazing
Me too, when I was an apprentice for a framing company that's how you were shown to use red head sleeve bolts. I think these are designed for climbing specifically, I've never seen sleeves like these.
Ryan, I have a load of really worn old slings and carabiners I’d love to see demolished in the name of science, where do I reach out about making a donation?
But a majority of them are not stainless steel and the zinc plated ones do not last very long in rock, they will work fine but when your life and others is on the line you want the best thats possible
@@HowNOT2 my friend tried to modify the Redhead sleeves to make them removable.... he said the results were skeeetchy. So much so that he decided against using them in cave for bolt climbs. Link to his post about modifying them: instagram.com/p/B1SHpbggiqw/?igshid=1tt0xk11sk3k1
Not a fan as they easily loosen in real world scenarios such as high use sport climbing clip ups. Save your money and buy a SS DeWalt 5-piece sleeve (AKA Powers)
comment what I think long term would do to these kinds of bolts? These.. removable bolts? that you remove and take with you? Think about it for a minute rofl.
Check out our new store! hownot2.store/
Ryan you guys do such a great job. Thanks for all the work you do, and for the resources like the spreadsheet and raw videos!
Here are my thoughts on the hanger being above or below the flange. If the nut or the top of the cone with the nut breaks, in both cases the hanger will pop out. If the top doesn't break, then:
1) If the hanger is ABOVE the flange, it will engage with the nut and pull the cone. However, it will engage the bottom of the cone with the sleeve more and more, so the sleeve will be "pushed" from the bottom together with the cone, expanding it more. I don't think there is a possibility of the cone slipping out of the sleeve. Based on this and the break tests footage (6:46), the most probable scenario is when the hanger is bending the top of the cone, causing it to break.
2) If the hanger is BELOW the flange, it will still engage and pull on the nut, which will in turn pull the cone (exactly as in case 1). If the bolt is properly tightened (so the bottom of the sleeve is expanded before any load), I don't think it will cause the sleeve to slip (since the nut is blocking that), but there's an issue of the sleeve not getting more expanded when the hanger is pulled. However, both the cone and the sleeve are pulled, which makes it harder for the top to bend and break (that seems to be the case in your break tests 6:39).
So based on these speculations, putting the hanger below the flange is not a death wish, especially when pulled in shear, IF the bolt is tightened. It might even reinforce the top of the cone. When pulled in tension, it seems to be the case that the hanger will pop out of the flange and will be pulling on the nut anyways (as visible on your break test footage 4:24).
Please take it with a grain of salt, there are just my thoughts on how it would theoretically work, I've never worked with bolts nor am I a mechanical engineer.
i was at Yosemite Saturday and thought of you and your channel, love your videos and the test you do. Thank You!! Im always questioning on sand stone but wow i learn some stuff today.
Awesome!
I would love to see a comparison of common bolt pull out forces depending on the angle of pull! A bolt in a vertical wall will mostly see force perpendicular to the bolt but what about a 45 degree overhanging sport route with the force closer to inline with the bolt?
Super interesting enough! Thanks for all your great videos and info. You guys rock.
Perhaps a demo on how fast Triplex break the bank account vs other bolts.
I wonder if the sand stone was higher because it would tilt to an almost 45 degree angle. A 45 degree break test on the concrete would be interesting so it would be pulling on the bolt in both a lateral pull and shear.
You could try adding a heavy duty washer between the hanger and nut. It may keep it from stretching and going over the nut. Could help in overall strength for the test. And if you put the hanger above the flange it seems like you may get a little bit more length in the hole, every inch or quarter inch could count. what's the best way to send hardware to be broken?
Please make comparison of wet and dry sandstone durability.
It is on our BoltBuster chart. CTRL F wet sandstone and you'll see what we did. Videos about it will come out soon.
Wouldn't flange above/below matter on sheer strength more?
What does the manafactor say how the hanger goes on the bolt ,?
something about the smaller hole shearing the bolt off, the bigger hole has a larger and smoother surface area which transfers the load over a slightly bigger area, the smalle on above just shears the top off because the trhead is allready cut shaped and has a smaller diameter in total.
also the larger one is pulling on the whole shaft creating more friction overall, the smaller one is pulling "just "on the bolt .
What does the manufacturer say about the assembly of the bolts?
Maybe the stretching/elasticity of the sleeve means that putting the hangar below is insignificant to the wedgie action down the bottom of the hole? I'd have been horrified to put the hangar below, but if it makes little difference... **Thanks** for the video, as soon as I saw these I thought, those would be great for boltbusters to bust!!
Well from the way the bolt failed, the position of the hanger does not influence the measured force. They just shear off in half on all pulls; the dyno readouts are basically the shear strength of the shaft of the bolt in all your pulls. Had the bolt slipped out, that may have been related to the position of the hanger pulling out the sleeve/cone.
You should test mechanical bolts in wet sandstone
Check out boltbusters on homepage of slackline.com. CTRL F and see all our sandstone tests. Did 100 different things. All videos are also available, the folders are named by sample number. Enjoy the rabbit hole
You must be really good friends with tradiban on mountain project! I love your work I appreciate it. Please keep it up will be donating soon.
Super interesting. Keep up the awesome
Fixe claims the collar should go on top of the hanger. You'll want to install them this way if you hope to remove them in the future. Most climbers feel safer with the collar under the hanger for the reasons you explain, but your data suggests it doesn't matter, which is comforting to see. I have also occasionally found that they just want to spin rather than tighten during installation, but if you pull up on the nut a little to seat the cone into the sleeve then they usually will tighten without the need to put a 1kN lateral force on them as you show. ruclips.net/video/j0zK9VvKMn0/видео.html
Legend. Love your videos!
Thanks!
Well the "sleeve" sits against the nut anyways, so when you pull at the hanger, the sleeve and the bolt get pulled together and the sleeve doesn't move on the bolt. In the concrete tests it was the bolt that broke, so in that case, the sleeve ads some meat that has to be bend and snapped and thereby the strength is higher. And you need to put the hanger under the sleeve so you can remove it bit unscrewing the nut and pulling the sleeve out, the bold then sits in the hole lose. At least that's what i would say.
Two bolts M8/75mm is sufficient for rappelling? I guess yes.
i think the most logical way to put the hanger is bellow the flange and the nut, because that way you are not just pulling the flange because the nut stops it from sliping.
in other words you distribute the force on the flange the nut and the central rod, but if you put it below the nut above the flange more force is on the nut threads and the central rod. I could be wrong it is best if some construction worker who works for a big company answerd that, because that big company would not wont to put their bolts the wrong way and risk someone dying.
You should teste some Brazilian "grampo P" anchor.
You got photos or a link describing those anchors?
@@bobbyhutton1989 I was also curious what exactly those were, and I scrounged this up:
www.niteroiense.org.br/resumo-do-estudo-de-grampos-no-brasil/
I also stumbled on this... which has a photo of the "P" about halfway down the page. Not only do those welds do NOT inspire confidence, but it sounds like they aren't glued at all... they're just hammered into the hole. 😬 Skeeetchy.
blogdescalada.com/saiba-quais-sao-as-protecoes-fixas-existentes-para-a-pratica-da-escalada/
Sidenote: I *must* find one of these folded "flapper" hangers to add to my weird-ass bolt hangers collection... it would look so nice next to my Petzl Clown
@@rachelhasbruises Thanks for research. Interesting that the welded but is just a keeper and the load is held by the rod.
I believe the double sided Bonier hangers aren't too hard to find. If memory serves they come in a ton of colors.
www.bonier.com.br/dupla
@@bobbyhutton1989 I never dreamed that I could start bolting caves in *rainbow* color schemes! 🤩
🌈🌈🌈🌈
@@bobbyhutton1989 Yes , i have some pretty good photos of them . i can send them to you by mail or on instagram or some other media. @botapracima is my instagram profile.
How can I get your mailing address, I would like to send you a a dozen 1/2 bolts that you can use and maybe break a few. I would like to know if what I’m using is good or bad.
You can't remove them when you put the hanger above!
With a big claw hammer or prybar you might be able to get under the sleeve? You're right that it'd make it a bigger challenge though
you said "we got pretty much higher in the sandstone" when comparing to concrete. I think you were reading the 75mm column because you got significantly lower in sandstone when comparing both same size anchors in sheer.
That's true. The rock broke with the 55m bolts in sandstone, so technically it's not the bolts which fail at lower forces. I'd guess that it doesn't really matter whether it's sandstone or concrete if the bolt is long enough to properly engage with the rock.
Can u do a vid on a beginner midline/high line setup for Christmas
Please check chanel its already done.
@@ukaszrybak3877 its not a begining highline one is but it leaves out specificks like amount of steel shackles where to buy them where to buy other gear, easiest ways to save money
ruclips.net/video/0R2RuLpAvbI/видео.html
Love the tshirt you are wearing.
Putting the hanger on the bolt vs flange, it would seem obvious that the bolt config would be best. So its surprising to me that they are about the same/sleeve is slightly better. I was concerned pulling on the sleeve would loosen the wings and possibly pull the bolt out of the hole. Since that isn't happening and the metal is shearing, pulling on the flange must be slightly stronger due to it have more metal to shear through.
If it was axial loading, I would never want to pull on the flange for fear it would pull the whole bolt out.
The flange is there for removal as well. When you loosen the nut. You pull on the anchor and it pulls the full sleeve up.
Interesting bolt. The removability seems nice. I'd be real interested in how screw anchors (such as Simpson's TitenHD) do in real rock. I assume they would be great in granite and terrible in sandstone, but who knows. I like the idea of being able to use screw anchors in rock for removability.... because screws.
all our anchors holding down the hydraulics were TitanHD screws. They are pretty wallowed out after about 50 tests and I don't recommend them for sandstone but for everything else they are amazing
Oh nooo POOR ROOCKK what have you done to himmmmmm😭😭😭😭😭
Howw coulldd youuu, rocks have feelings😆
See Ursula K. Le Guin "The Author of the Acacia Seeds and Other Extracts from the Journal of the Association of Therolinguistics"
I would've assumed the flange goes under
Me too, when I was an apprentice for a framing company that's how you were shown to use red head sleeve bolts. I think these are designed for climbing specifically, I've never seen sleeves like these.
Happy Veterans Day Bro.
Ryan, I have a load of really worn old slings and carabiners I’d love to see demolished in the name of science, where do I reach out about making a donation?
I'm behind on break tests right now. Maybe hit me up in a few months
Red heads (these types of bolt in the construction industry) are literally designed to be used in concrete and get full strength.
What are you trying to say?
But a majority of them are not stainless steel and the zinc plated ones do not last very long in rock, they will work fine but when your life and others is on the line you want the best thats possible
The red heads i have used aren't high quality metal and aren't that strong. They also aren't removable like triplex
@@HowNOT2 my friend tried to modify the Redhead sleeves to make them removable.... he said the results were skeeetchy. So much so that he decided against using them in cave for bolt climbs. Link to his post about modifying them:
instagram.com/p/B1SHpbggiqw/?igshid=1tt0xk11sk3k1
break test a stuck cam and compare it to the well placed cams you broke!
Not a fan as they easily loosen in real world scenarios such as high use sport climbing clip ups. Save your money and buy a SS DeWalt 5-piece sleeve (AKA Powers)
comment what I think long term would do to these kinds of bolts? These.. removable bolts? that you remove and take with you?
Think about it for a minute rofl.
First