Black Professor in Anti-Racist Hell | Glenn Loury, John McWhorter & Vincent Lloyd | The Glenn Show
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- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2024
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0:00 Woke religion or woke cult?
8:59 Does suffering confer authority on the sufferer?
12:47 A world without “anti-black domination”
21:27 Is there an alternative to the criminal justice system?
34:42 Domination and the purpose of the university
42:47 How Vincent’s Telluride Association seminar blew up
50:45 The narrowness of the social justice framework
54:14 Glenn and John’s encounters with fans
59:49 Should Black Studies exist?
Glenn Loury, John McWhorter (Columbia, New York Times, Lexicon Valley), and Vincent Lloyd (Villanova). Recorded February 19, 2023.
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I'm a black female over 50. I've been listening to you two for a long time now. John, I found you when I reas, Losing the Race. This and other things were part of my evolution from just being black to being a full person. I love this freedom.
This is the mindset change that seems so elusive for many black Americans, especially those descendants from slavery. I think this is what Ye so clumsily tried to describe when he said, “sounds like a choice.” It’s probably one of the best things a black American can do for their self and their future. Congrats to you for freeing your mind from the race bullshit confines. I’m a firm believer in what Kmele Foster says about how race is simply a made up concept.
Looks like chains to me.
These guys are horrid.
❤❤❤ Awesome
Agreed. Freedom comes with knowledge, which itself comes from openness to ideas and experience - and none of this is passive. Freedom isn’t a state, but a relentless, joyous battle against entropy. Godspeed on your journey.
I’m white. I want things to be better for black people in America. We are all Americans. Slavery is complete humiliation. I am Jewish. Six million Jews were brutally taken from their homes all over Western Europe as part of a Final Solution (not sure what problem was). Christians cheered as Jews were loaded into cattle cars with no food or water or space to turn around We were enslaved to work with no food, but when we were too weak to be useful, we were thrown into gas chambers and crematoria. . I’m glad that didn’t happen to black people. We have to respond by living dignified lives.
Listening to John and Glenn has set the bar very high on what it means to have intelligent, deep conversations.
The professor kept saying ‘we need to have these conversations’ and Glenn kept trying to invite him into that conversation right now.
It’s easier to say we need to have conversations instead of actually having those conversations.
Touche. Policy not platitudes is what is lacking in these "conversations". Utopia is not of this world, and this professor's world view is emblematic of the compete the lack of seriousness in his field of study.
Matt, you know that national discussion on race everyone says that they want? They better be careful what they wish for!
@@shivasirons6159You mean they might hear some home truths they do not want to hear?
Classic tactic of someone who cant debate just says we need to have more conversations. Well that is what he was trying do. But he knows his arguement will fall apart and quickly if debated. Well said Matt
@@user-mq5rh6ew7p We should have a comity to decide if we should have a comity to see if we should discuse this.
If I had Vincent as my professor my head would hurt. This guy sounds like he doesn’t live in reality. Thank you for putting him on. He proves everything that’s wrong with Colleges and Universities today. God Bless Glenn and John for putting up with him. Great job gentlemen.
Bless Glenn and John. At least that’s what I hope u meant. Lol
@@svigdorrodgivs3998 fixed it! Thanks!
It’s important we don’t throw the baby out with the bath water when we talk about “colleges and universities”. The woke left certainly had disproportionate power currently but they are still a small minority among the population of professors. I mean, just realize the fact guys like Glenn and John are both university professors themselves.
I had to take a diversity class for my education degree. My professor espoused the same talking points Dr. Vincent was saying. Nothing different, it's all the same points. I find it discouraging that this the only discourse in academia.
No professor lives in reality.
This is a very nice, well-meaning man who (likely unconsciously) habitually avoids touching the hard truths of reality at all costs.
Well-meaning. A spineless idiot is a more fitting description.
Amen. I’m trying not check out.
The fact that Lloyd can say “They had no real racism to deal with, and so they turned against me to apply the principles” without his worldview crumbling is astonishing to me. How does he not see that he’s defeated himself?
Pretty unbelievable isn't it.
If it wasn't so pathetic and socially destructive it would be funny.
What bothers me is that he’s worried about those criminals not being with their families, but not worried about what happens to their victims. I’m not only concerned with their first victim, but all subsequent victims that would not have been victims had the criminal been incarcerated. What happens when they no longer get to come home their families? What happens when they are permanently disabled by the criminal? How many lives are disrupted/ ruined by one rogue member of the community that would have been incarcerated? How many others will that criminal recruit into their gang/organization that would have had a chance at a good life otherwise? As Vincent is worrying about the factors that have led to the person to being a criminal, I am more concerned what happens to those who are not committing crimes
What’s worse is he doesn’t have any practical ideas on how to eliminate the oppression that is supposedly causing people to commit crime. Listening to him is a bit frustrating as there are no solutions just wide sweeping statements
Exactly. Their idea of justice is upside down.
Thank you....yes what about the victim of the actual crime. Not the person committing the crime.
People like Vincent only ever see someone in an orange jumpsuit on TV at trial or read about one of the few people wrongly murdered by police ever year. They see "criminals" as some arbitrarily oppressed group whose incarceration has no connection to the crimes they've committed. People like Vincent are so far removed from crime that frankly I think they literally don't have a mental image of it. They have no genuine interest in criminal law or statistics, and because this deep academic ignorance has not been corrected by any collision with reality, they believe that the few wrongfully convicted represent the vast majority who are in there for repeated violent offenses.
This is pathetic and ignorant stuff.
Yoo actually believe that we shud not try to prevent the creation of criminals?
Yoo can doo betta than this.
Mr Lloyd strikes me as the kind of guy that's ok with being robbed at gun point on a weekly basis. He also strikes me as the kind of guy who would never live anywhere he might be robbed.
Truly. As prevention. Great idea. I guess he does not believe in punishment though I do think one of the problems of prison is that it often leads to more crime.
@@farapipsqueek636 That's because in the US, prisons are a for-profit system. There's, as far as I'm aware, no process to help reintegrate the inmates who've sat out their jail terms back into society, because that's not profitable (enough). Here in Europe, the focus is on the convicts' eventual reintegration into society after their jail term is up, and while some criminals do turn back to crime, the vast majority doesn't.
Yes we have lots of middle-class whites in Britain who have the same attitude. They think crime makes life more interesting. So long as it isn't happening to them or any of their kids.
@@halofreak1990 Most prisons are state/federal owned and controlled. Private prisons hold about 7 percent of US prison population and this has been declining. To say its a "for profit" system advertises you dont know the demographics very well..
That's a total myth. The idea that any prisons make money is ludicrous. Less than 9% of US prisons are privately owned, housing about 7% of the prison population, and they don't turn a profit. Nice idea, but it was debunked about 6 weeks after "The new Jim Crow" was published. Also, your statements about Europe are just false. Leaving aside the fact that there are 44 countries in Europe, the 4 year recidivism rate is around 55% in France and Netherlands, 60% in Denmark, 70% in England an Wales, to pick some at random. It' going up too. @@halofreak1990
It's remarkable to me that Professor Lloyd fails to appreciate just how much the experience he endured at Telluride is a direct consequence of the worldview he is advancing. The degree to which he lacks any self-reflection in this escapade is just astounding.
bingo
The cognitive dissonance of the left cannot be overstated. They’re incapable of entertaining any discussion of the unintended consequences of their policy prescriptions. It’s unfathomable to them that they might actually be hurting the people they claim to be helping.
The entire “anti racist” movement is like professor Lloyd - their lack of self awareness is disturbing
That's basically what commented b4 I read your comment, which is spot on.
Indeed.
The forbearance demonstrated here by Glenn and John reminds me of a patient, loving teacher with a passionate teenage student full of certainty and conviction.
I am resisting he deserves his recent troubles! Black experience is not the only example of dealing with being marginalised! In malayasia they had a firm of affirmative action , because the Chinese minority seemed to dominate every profession and economic riches.
He gives power to the wrong stories! He almost said we black people are being hunted by police on a daily basis!
Gosh! he deserved his problems.
This was a master class in how to maintain your composure. From about Min 15:00 onwards it was written all over John and Glenn’s faces exactly what they thought about what was being said. Vincent seems like a very nice man. Vincent means well, but I doubt Vincent has ever had a conversation with someone who has been incarcerated and that’s probably for his own good. I can tell that John and Glenn wanted to be respectful to Vincent, even caring, almost. I appreciate that, but the problem is that academia is full of mostly Vincents. Keisha just had to take one look at Vincent and know that she could run the show. The fact that even after his experience Vincent is still clinging to this hollow romanticism about modern justice movements is insane to me but not surprising. It is also characteristic of academics, especially those who find themselves being department chairs. For all his claims to community involvement, Vincent talks about the world as someone who experiences it secondhand through ethnographies and Atlantic columns. I am about to defend my dissertation and go on the academic job market but I am seriously contemplating leaving academia for good. I can handle the Keishas, but for me it’s the Vincents who have ruined academia. I honestly don't know how you "fix" that.
Bullshit.
Wow. That's quite a summation. Can't say I disagree.
and if he cant read domination in a great song about love by a black signer of old, he doesnt want anything to do with it no matter how black folks have been moved by it.
Well-said. He's a zesty boyyyy and he blatt - needs to toe the line or he'll be ostracized.
Well put.
The irony is this: Vincent doesn't realize that by reducing academia to a study of domination and justice, he helped to create the monster that he's now fighting against.
The Woke cult uses dominance to force it's corrupt ideas of justice on others. It reveal why the instruction to remove the beam from your own eye before trying to remove the sawdust from your neighbor's eye is wise
He isn't fighting anything. He will just maneuver more carefully to not be in opposition to a BW.
He is a 'Utopian Post-Modernist Racist'. He using past injustices to justify his desire to dominate others.
He wishes to change the Democratic process that have been established since the Enlightenment. Our system of justice is unfair...but the least unfair system that has ever been imagined. His system of tribal retribution is simplistic and would ends up with the type of injustice that burnt Tulsa in 1923.
He is a disgusting facsimile of an intellectual. I man with intelligence that has wasted his life on the pursuit of flattening things that cannot be flattened. He is a fool.
Can you explain how one thing lead to the other?
@@09BiGDylan By indoctrinating a generation of solipsistic college students into seeing all human interaction as a binary, oppressor and victim, the Post-Modernist, like the Professor in the interview, have created a generation that have no sense of grace. All human interaction are about control and power.
Anyone who does not agree with thier vision of the world is looking to dominate them because there is only two choices, us and them. Anyone who doesn't agree is seeking to dominate and oppress.
College is basically creating large scale narcissistic movements that seek to roll back Democracy and Enlightenment ideas of freedom of the individual to be replaced with Tribal and Religious Dogma.
@@09BiGDylan He's over-intellectualizing the issue of race and justice. Catching himself in a Foucalt nightmare where everything is just a power dynamic of oppressed vs domination.
This discussion reminds us all how empty and shallow the thought process is in Academia. Lloyd spews out endless reams of meaningless verbiage, that is calculated to sound thoughtful, but is utterly worthless. I have to give enormous credit to Mr. Loury and Mr. McWhorter for listening and engaging with him respectfully. You gentlemen both definitely have what I would describe as the "academic affect" in your tone but there is always substance and genuine thought behind what you say. That is rare from my experience.
Well-said. I just want to tell him…. Stop.
Just imagine if her were talking about energy policies or immigration or any other topic that we didn’t have a interest in, these are the sort of people running things , the word magicians
Precisely. "The system is broken, we have 2 million people incarcerated, we need to think of some other system." What other system for violent crime are you thinking of, letting them go? We tried that during COVID, and turns out that's an even shittier system.
You have a shitload of people who are extremely violent and roaming the streets. The fact that we're not able to lock them all up is a problem, locking them up isn't what's broken in the system.
Aren't all three of them part of academia?
@@ChrisStavros Completely, totally and utterly indoctrinated.
There is increasingly less violent crime but the prison industrial complex is very powerful.
"So the students had a list of grievances claiming that I was perpetuating anti-black racism. They had learned about these abstract principles of anti-black racism. They didn't have any substantial racism around them to apply those principles to. The instructors of the seminar were the only outsiders to which those principles could be applied."
It is truly incredible that Vincent can describe the situation he encountered in such terms, while at the same time seemingly not realizing that precisely such a description could also be accurately applied to the ideology he so fervently believes in and is promulgating. I think this is one of the main criticisms that people have with the racial essentialism type philosophy he is representing, in that is in such direct conflict with just trying to live a decent and humane everyday life getting along with one's fellow citizens. (as Vincent found out firsthand!) The ideology instead seems to promote an endless sense of grievance with continual overreach to keep finding ever more minor and/or nonsensical transgressions to label as racist given the lack of more overt actions, as well as to ascribe all of societies' ills to the catch-all explanation of racism instead of reserving it for where it actually applies. This only serves to undermine and diminish the impact of a once meaningful and stigmatizing term when it is employed ever more broadly and without justification.
Veri lazi and silli rubbish 🗑 here.
Yooo R simply weeek and easily fooled. Times are changing and peeple can C tha' cokroach for wot it is.
All yor tears cannot change this.
Yep, a scholarly priest from the cult of race grifting has found himself caught up in a charge of blasphemy and heresy, he runs to the media to explain how his god is as real as ever, but the clergy is running amok and have gone too far in his case, not far enough in many other cases.
And I’m over here realizing these people have no god, theirs is an ideology of faithful baseless scholarship and social coercion, which ironically only works to the exact extent to which the wider society is already non-racist or overtly MLK style anti-racist. These cultists would sooner lie about racism than ever explain it’s existence in any concrete terms, and they’ve gone so far as to simply redefine racism as a cultist would, anything that isn’t expressly pro-them, is anti-them and their dividing lines is racism.
I’d love to ask this guy what evidence there was to suggest that George Floyd was killed because of racism. He would have nothing but his redefinition where white people are just born racist and at best can merely remove themselves to allow non-whites to not have to deal with their evil nature. So Floyd was not killed because of actual racism, but theological racism; which manifests in every negative or neutral interaction between whites and non-whites. If whites don’t expressly bend the knee, they are racists, I’m sure he would imagine I am a racist for even asking for evidence of racism, as neutral inquiry is akin to questioning gods existence, you must affirm or be cast out.
@Mellowtron Yoo R a really sik person and a real coward.
It is amazing how this stuff is always the same.
The summation is you and most that yoo noe are not racist so there is no racism and peeple that say that there is are the actual racists.
Whytes are not born racist but are born into it.
This becomes a poisoned existence in which they feel compelled to defend themselves and their genetic inferiority.
Yooo R trapped.
@@mellowtron214 Yooo R indeed a racist for asking for evidence of racism in a country that is built firmly and squarely on racism.
@@ondolite3789 are you being serious or sarcastic?
There are three shocking things here.
(1) Vincent Lloyd is a professor;
(2) Vince believes he knows best how to handle violent offenders that he has clearly never interacted with;
(3) Vince _wasn't woke enough_ for his students! This is a little like hearing someone say that the Taliban aren't quite violent or theocratic enough. The wonders never cease.
Seems like you've never been near a campus. Nearly ALL academics think like this moron
I was a non-violent drug conspiracy offender and spent over 5 years in a cage in the late 1990s and into the new millennium. (I was 19 when I “joined” the conspiracy)
I have to squarely say, that although the laws at the time were unfair, I PUT MYSELF THERE. And until people realize that, and stop blaming everyone else, things and crime will not change. It’s about attitude and choices.
those prisons are awful places, by and large. whatever, you're outta there. i hope when the door slammed shut on your now-free-man butt one of the guards had the decency to tell you "don't do anything or hang out with people that might bring you back".
I have a few friends whose time inside put them right on the straight and narrow - and they never returned.
Truth. 🙏🏽👍🏽
it doesn't matter if you put yourself there because our system causes one to be able to put themselves there. we imprisoned people for drugs when our government was complicit with the importation of those drugs.
@@basedgamerguy818 God gave us free will. Everyone chooses their own path.
I made it to 37:35. I can't take him any more. John and Glenn, you are stronger men than I.
You should try to at least 40 min in when John & then Glenn challenge him about the harm in excessively identifying with the victim narrative.
@@plaidpaisley5918 Okay. I'll give it a try. I'll get my stress ball ready and dive back in.
@@gregmeier 😂😂 His response won’t be satisfying, but the challenges ARE.
People like Mr. lloyd imagine a world without prisons. The rest of us imagine a world without criminals.
Neither of his or your views are anything but pipe dreams.
The best we can hope for is a functional justice system with fair law enforcement. Anything else is asking for tyranny or anarchy
He can imagine a world without prisons because he's a millionaire who has never lived in a poor, crime-riddled area.
that's just dumb. the US has 25% of the worlds incarcerated. why is that. why do we spend so much incarcerating people wouldn't that money be better spent in other ways
That’s exactly my point. Why can’t people like you understand the simple fact that the best way to reduce the incarcerated population is to reduce criminality. Much of what folks like you call “progress” encourages criminality. Look in the mirror if you wonder why there are so many criminals in this country. Simply choosing to not hold people accountable for criminal behavior (what you seem to be advocating) is what is dumb. Punishing criminality AND creating a society where people choose not to commit crimes are not mutually exclusive.
"Plural of anectodote is not data." I love this.
A maxim attributed to Frank Kotsonis, an American pharmacologist, though not verified.
More conversations with woke professors please. It’s wonderfully entertaining.
Honestly, it struck me as grating. It looks like Loury and McWhorter had the same impression.
more at "woefully" :(
Honestly, I cringed every time he started talking. He was like a wiggly four year old. Ugh. Then when you listened to his CRT-esque content..... I think this guy was a royal waste of time. Just ridiculous. Though it did liven up a bit when he started telling how he got kicked out of the Telluride to-do. I thought Glenn was going to lose it. That perpetual twinkle in his eye just got twinklier.
This man is not woke, he’s just wrong. If he was woke he would not have this conversation and would have labeled Glenn and John.
@@beaumartin4438 both grating and necessary to peel back the layers of onion and get to the core. Along the way it burns the eyes and stinks to watch.
You two might be the most important voices to get us out of this crux. Well done as always Glenn and John. Majority of us just want a better world for everyone.
When I first read this guy’s article, I felt a twinge of sympathy for him. Now I can’t help but laugh.
I am glad I got to hear from him. He stills supports neo fascism. All he is upset about is that he personally was made an example of.
I found his article incredibly brave. I find his backpedaling abominably embarrassing.
Whatever I think of Professor Lloyd's arguments, getting in the ring with Glenn and John would be an anxiety-provoking experience, and I give him a lot of credit for that.
Given Lloyd’s unwillingness to answer directly, rather than “getting in the ring”, I think “stepping onto the dodgeball court” is a more appropriate sporting metaphor. 😂
he's a grown man that chose to come. if you're not qualified to have the conversation, why attend? no. sorry.
@@SJGibbons1000 Funny!
@@socrjox10 To defend your ideas and let the viewers judge their merits, as I certainly have done?
@@socrjox10 It's really hard to get any wokesters to come.
I am here out of love and loyalty to John and Glenn and that is it. I’m not heartbroken that Vincent is not my professor.
Yoo R a poor parent.
I tried, but honestly it was like Glenn and John were babysitting a 2nd-grader who'd found the Pixie Stix stash and gone all in.
lolol
It was like picking on a eighth grader when you're a senior in HS.
This is not a good look for anybody.
Made me laugh
🤭
@@helenablavatsky9136 Hi Helena!
48:55 There are many ironies in the situation Vincent Lloyd found himself. One that jumps out at me is that he seems unable to acknowledge that he allowed himself to be dominated by his students in a seminar that was supposed to be against domination. He can only babble about sensibilities and virtues and allies.
Ahh but the student are traditional the class with less power so it is only right and proper that they dominate him.
@@williamjenkins4913 😂😂😂😂
I feel bad writing this because it's petty, but Professor Lloyd's voice matches his viewpoints so perfectly.
Don’t feel bad. The same thought came to mind.
Word.
He just lives in a different world. Academia is not the place we can depend on to fix most societal issues . I’d love to take Vince and have him tour certain areas in baltimore or Detroit and see what he thinks then ..
Intellectual to a fault, but not maintaining reason, that's a shitty combo man... u can call me a hater too.
I listen, while working on other things. Vincent's voice is unlistenable.
If Keisha is a victim of anybody, she's a victim of people just like Vincent Lloyd.
interesting historical tidbit, but George Washington Carver actually met Keisha. He told her, "hold my slave shackles while I do these lab experiments." She and her type obviously became more obsessed with those shackles than with Carver's experiments.
@@ricodelavega4511 😂
The alarming part for me was that Vincent neither knows what his ideal world is, or when it's reached (which he says explicitly early on), nor seemingly how to get there. This bears more than passing similarity to Mao's idea of "endless revolution," and it's starting to bear the same fruit and for the same reasons.
Bullseye.
Mao would have sent Vincent to work in the fields along with the other intellectuals who did not understand the reality of peasant life. After that interview I have some sympathy for Mao.
100% by design. Keep it urgent and keep em angry.
Endless ability to conceptualize and no ability to operationalize.
This was hard to watch. But nonetheless important. I'm always glad to see differing viewpoints on this show. It's just so hard to have a conversation with people who hold these college campus ideological beliefs. It always plays out like both parties are speaking a different language and neither understands what the other is saying. Idk how to bridge this gap but kudos to you both for trying
Maybe we can find a story that will help us form a collective imagination to solve our problems.
I don't think here is a both parties situation. But there is a lot of ignorance that stems from people not venturing out of their bubble and presenting themselves as a counter to negative stereotypes.
@@leonais1 Oh a Dr P reference nice.
@@dustinavant2003 There is a bubble on the left but not really on the right. We are dominated by left-think whether it's media, advertising, TV, News, Sports, every day life. I say there is no right bubble because you have to actively seek conservative opinion to know what it is. Watching ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, your local news does not accurately tell you what conservatives think and believe. It's like having someone who dislikes you tell someone else what kind of person you are.
Even people who rabidly watch Fox news have to leave that bubble to watch sports, the weather on local news or a TV show they like. Have you watched TV commercials nowadays? They're completely woke. The NFL, Super Bowl and it's advertising is as woke as you can get. The NFL has "End Racism" painted on the end zones following the leftist and BLM riots of 2020. Do they only mean white racism or are they also including black racism against whites and Asians? Asian societies are some of the most racist of all.
@@dang1861 I think that used to be more true, but now with media algorithms like RUclips, it plays what you like and if you selected flat earth that's that it will keep feeding you regardless of accuracy or quality. I try to go on left and right channels and it seems very clear that there is a disconnect in the comments on each side. They often attribute each with one bad take as the entire sides core beliefs. I think each are a lot closer on core values, and can come to common grounds on a lot more if people on the extrems didn't have such big megaphones. Not everyone is MTG or AOC. I see this as politically homeless, and am called right by the left and left by the right.
This passes for wisdom? There are too many things to tear apart in Vincent's 'logic' to even begin. The grace extended by John and Glenn is clear.
watching this one is a greater testament of loyalty to glenn and john than anything else. Every time this guy said "putting people in cages" i got so unreasonably irritated. Prisons are cages?? Putting people in prisons is a "moral abomination" but committing a violent crime against someone is completely ok, and the moral abomination of putting people in prison is much worse than any risk of people having violence committed against them, or at least that's how this Vincent fella sees the world.
It is dumbfounding to me. Totally agree with you.
Prisons are a terrible thing, but being a victim is far worse.
Prisons at least how they are currently run are a moral abomination. You dont have to think crime is ok to understand that simple fact. Its is a clear example of becoming the monster you hate as the prisons end up subjecting people to much worse violence then most any of the inmates ever committed. The system you are defending will bunk someone with a serial rapist and turn out the lights over a bag of weed.
@@williamjenkins4913 if you think it's fair to call all prisons in the US a "moral abomination" idk what to tell you
Credit to Vincent for coming on the Glenn Show. That took courage. But he spoke always in sweeping conceptual assertions (“systems of black dominance,” “this is a fallen world,” etc) that are so broad as to be largely unfalsifiable. Obviously Vincent is an academic, where ideas can run free unchallenged by reality. When pushed, he runs to that fail safe, slavery. But what to do now? Blacks do half as much homework as whites, and one-quarter as much as Asians. Changing that would accomplish incomparably more to advance blacks than all the CRT-type sermonizing that’s ever been uttered. [EDIT: Thank you, Vincent, for not getting angry and insulting when challenged, unlike Michael Eric Dyson and so many other hate-has-no-home-here types]
"This is a fallen world," but somehow we can eliminate domination from it?? And how will that be accomplished except through more domination?
Vincent is a doomer. I stopped it at climate racism.
@@catherinemadsen6681 I noticed that contradiction too. "Fallen world and black dominance". I don't know how someone like Vincent can be a professor but I appreciated his respectfulness.
Vincent seems to believe in utopia . It’s very obvious he has never been to some of the more higher crime areas - he thinks some community support can get this turned around. He is simply naive and people like him actually are why we are in this current predicament
I’m all for creating a better justice system but I’m not hearing any ideas even being discussed
And yes, when I hear someone talk about “breaking the chains of oppression” and creating a world where no one is dominated or oppressed by some measure I just end up confused . I can’t begin to envision the world they hope to create
@@catherinemadsen6681 yep and Mcwhorter and Glenn were too classy to call him out on his contradictions
It's amazing how poorly Vincent is able to explain his thoughts with any sort of clarity. It's possible to become a professor with such skills? Otherwise an incredible conversation; Vincent is brave to come on and John and Glenn show a masterclass in best faith arguing.
Unfortunately yes
It is probably more to do with the actual thoughts rather than being able to explain them clearly.lol
@@andrewjoyner4133 at a teaching college? Impossible.
Maybe the problem here was that he was unprepared, and maybe had not had to respond to these sorts of questions before.
I was astounded at his ability to articulate his arguments without any real substance.
@@captjimusfl i suppose that's one way of putting it!
😂😂😂 This is too funny!
Watching Glenn and John trying to keep a straight face for over an hour!
my sentiments also 🤣
My eyes were locked on Glenn for most of the convo.
Hahaha, Glenn says alot at times without speaking.
Quite.
Oh my - not the state holding someone responsible, but rather the local community - he's describing a posse
If Mr. Lloyd is looking for a world where sin is not a problem, he won't find it on planet Earth.
John and Glenn are so deeply reasoned and educated and have references deeper than separatism, unlike the "fallen world" of Vincent.
Great channel with wonderfully thoughtful and meaningful dialogue. Thanks to both of you for doing this-we need more of it.
Very interesting discussion! I concur with Prof McWhorter, the time for Black Studies and Black History Month has passed. There was need for such in the past only for a short period. But it is now 2023, not 1970.
Why was it necessary then? All it did was cultivate an ongoing culture of hatred and division.
I agree. Black studies, Women's studies, Queer studies, it's all had its day and done.
Yoo again!!
What is wrong with yoo??
@Jianju69 Did not cultivate this at
all.
America was already divided by decades of racist legislation.
Yoo seem really stoopid.
@Terri Severson Just getting started baby!!
Lloyd is typical of those who populate "Black Studies"
Bravo, gentlemen - as always. As a non-Black, non-American, retired Englishman living in Asia, the sense and balance you bring to this entire overheated and often histrionic topic is nothing short of vitally important.
In a world where stupid, facile ideas gain blanket acceptance amongst swathes of disgruntled, uninformed but easily influenced people ,the value of considered, sober reflection has NEVER been more important.
Heaven knows if you can become THE defining voices of reason and modernity - but there are several hundreds of thousands of us who believe you can and should - and we wish you every success in breaking through year on year on year in PRECISELY the way you did in this conversation.
One of the best conversations of recent times, chaps. Thank you.
Rubbish 🗑.
Prof Vincent Lloyd was really brave to come on here. I think he does actually do a really good job of explaining that perspective. The problem is it is a very vague perspective/attitude towards the world.
I think Glenn and John were really gentle on this guy. They could’ve trounced on him but instead they were very restrained.
I agree. I respect Professor Lloyd and his perspective. I feel he is a serious intellectual and not just pandering to a particular audience. However, I also think that he speaks in abstract and provides no solutions to the urgency of real life and what is happening on the ground.
The perspective is not at all vague. His entire worldview is predicated on finding domination in every interaction all day every day. It's an absurd, US only culture of race essentialism that is laughed at in most of Africa's universities. It is not taken seriously anywhere else on the planet outside the West.
Agreed. I am looking forward to his work in a few decades.
Welp Vincent got eaten by his own... Glenn and John were gentle (but savage!). I'm afraid that there will be many more Vincent Lloyds before things change.
This dude is off his rocker!
What a perfect representative of modern academia, how depressing.
2 intellectual heavyweights showing class and discretion in letting their guest express himself gives me increased respect for them. Will be back. Subscribed.
The thing I keep coming back to during this discussion is Vincent teaches classes. You could argue circles around his vague ideas and he would still fail you for not agreeing with him.
But the amazing thing about this guy is that he says very little but uses a lot of words, lol. 40 minutes in and have yet to hear a concrete critique or any concrete solutions, just platitudes aplenty over and over.
@@brek5 what made me facepalm was when he said he couldn't describe an ideal world. The guy is a theologian!
@@AndreComtois he saying we not living in ideal world but by having this knowledge, we can start to live our lives not to do that. This solution doesn’t require institutional solution because people will Marshall to do the right.
The problem is that bad people can Marshall people to do bad things and call it necessary for the movement. There will be no way to counter it
@@AndreComtois and in that answer he went back to saying we need to prioritize to the voices of those in the hard pressed communities, as an explanation for why he doesn't have any detail to say. This is just after he claimed to Glenn that the idea that "experiencing hardship conveys authority" doesn't mean it's the be all, in which case he should have no problem giving some of his own thoughts (even if he felt a need to qualify that he doesn't have a complete view).
@@brek5 … I thought the exact same thing!!!
Thank you for confirming it just wasn’t me👍
I know this was a serious discussion but seeing Johns face @15:40 made me laugh so hard😂
🤣🤣🤣 YESS in dieing
And 24:41 😂
Yes, John's face speaks volumes. Couldn't help but wonder if his short disappearance was to bang his head against the wall and not technology at all. Or maybe it was very definitely technology just an older kind: releasing steam off camera.
The most amazing thing here is that a--clearly sweet, intelligent, thoughtful--man like Dr. Lloyd, steeped as he is in black studies language and thought processes, experienced what he did and felt the need to describe it in an article as an "anti-racist hell".
What amazes me is one can have practical experience of the results of seeing everything as domination and then not question if that thought as a foundation for viewing life is shaky at best, and insidious at worst
Paraphrasing Thomas Sowell -- dont be surprised by ones daftness towards the flaws in their beliefs when their livelihood depends on forwarding those beliefs.
@@DDeCicco And also quoting Upton Sinclair: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
Glenn is the coolest guy on RUclips -he knows this guys nuts !
I know Glenn is nuts.
@@anyawaleofondo Another dumb comment from you. You legit sound like an eight year old-“I know you are, but what am I?” Here’s another trophy 🏆
this dude is steeped deeply in a high school engish class interpretation of the world, not in a concrete reality
Lmao
No, he's totally fluent in modern Marxist critical-theory evil, poisoned honey in every syllable.
Yes McWhorter is ridiculous.
@@ondolite3789 Not McWhorter, you retard.
@@philosopherking3764 Correct ✅️
It is actually McWorthless.
This is hurtful to watch. Vincent seems like a nice guy. But also like the kind of person who wouldn't find a coconut on Coconut Island. Completely out of touch with reality.
Omg 15:40ish John’s hand over his face 😂 I guffawed.
I give Vincent credit for not once saying "black bodies"
Calling for the dismantling of our very complex and ever more prosperous society, and feeling no responsibility or even desire to envision what this "new" society should look like, is childish and naive when coming from your typical young person. When coming from a presumably educated adult and especially one who is employed to prepare our children for the real world, it is vile.
And what he's endorsing is as old as socialism and white as Europe.
Could not agree more. Well said.
What's fascinating here ( especially after reading Prof. Lloyds great piece in Compact) is the inability to recognize that the events at Telluride were the direct result of 'Domination Pedagogy'.
Wow, if this is who is teaching our young people, it's no wonder why it seems like we are so screwed.
I don't think people like Vincent and similar believe their own rhetoric. Simply because it's foolish. The reason they spout this nonsense is simply because it' pays. And pays really, really well.
Love this episode. Not that I agreed with either perspective(s) 100% but that both Glenn and John along with Vincent were coming face to face with differing positions in real time and having to engage with the opposition, makes me feel that THIS is what intelligent and civil debate needs to look like online and I salute all three gentlemen for this discussion.
Well said
This is a little like a teenager telling some adults he knows his latest "deep thoughts" about the way the world should work, while not realizing either the way the world actually works or that many people in history have had these same ideas and tried them out and failed.
He definitely seems to mean well, but good intentions minus any practical experience can be more dangerous than bad intentions. At his age he should have a bit more humility about his expertise.
Or rather, his lack of expertise. In the ivory tower, one can proclaim expertise in any subject that does not have real world applicability.
Stupid post.
When one identifies as a soldier, does everything look like a battle? And when everything looks like a battle, is everything a war? That is a sad life.
"You call something a war, and pretty soon everyone is going to be running around acting like warriors." - The Wire
Many people very knowingly use and extend a “war” to profiteer not just financially but to advance themselves in status and professionally. It’s a bit of a golden ticket for the cynical or simply thoroughly indoctrinated who can just keep deploying their identities to claim being oppressed as a permanent trick and basis by which to bully and oppress others.
It cannot be overstated how awesome that brief opening theme is. Funky little jazz piano riff somehow fits Glenn’s smooth, mellow demeanor perfectly! Always helps set the mood for me.
exactly! this is exactly what I was thinking a minute ago when I clicked on the video!
Lousy is an insult to those musicians who often defied hell to bring us their music.
Maybe McWhorter can explain why many escaped to europe.
Please tritabe more respectful as yoo R realli chikki.
@@ondolite3789 what are you on about?
@stvbrsn Lousy and McWorthless stink.
Who is the artist/ album called?
The word Reimagine or the phrase “ We need to imagine a new way of doing the ________ system “ is so sophomoric that I instantly lose my intellectual hard on for whatever conversation is occurring that it is spoken in.
I never got to the point of a hard-on during this conversation. I did enjoy Loury's and McWhorter's dissection of Lloyd's pedagogy and philosophy, er, Wokeism. If I had kids on the cusp of going to college, I would instead encourage them to attend community college, take up a trade, or look specifically for a non-Woke university.
John and Glenn, PLEASE don’t stop. Two great minds.
15:00 mark you can see on Glenn and John's face of 'WTF this guy is nuts or an authoritarian.'
Yes, especially John's face is pretty priceless. I have no idea why they had this guy on.
I am at 27:41 where Lloyd is talking about the community being a better source of retribution and reform for McWhorter’s carjacking example than the state. But the state (the police) only get involved in situations when criminal activity reaches a point that reflects either a community that no longer has respect for traditional, non-criminal behavior and is a threat to its members or an individual within a community acts in a way that threatens the positive community structure all of us want. The individual acting in a criminal manner has, by his or her actions, already demonstrated a rejection of the socialization that Lloyd says he or she needs.
This interview was very difficult for me to watch. It's one of the reasons why what we see today in our society and racial divisiveness and grievance promulgated by young people today comes from professors like Vincent.
Racial divisiveness is American tradition.
Yoo lazibutz doo not stand a chance until yoo fix up and quit tha' victimhood.
@@ondolite3789 It shows you are not a serious person reading through your response. I don't think this is a channel for you. Can you write a decent English.
@john318 john316 I can write a (sic) decent english but I prefer italo english creole.
Racial divisiveness has been promulgated by America since its inception.
You sound pretty stupid.
From 34:43 on this issue is exactly what needs to be discussed in universities and to hear it discussed here was wonderful. I sat up and said "YES!" when Glenn responded to that
I agree with John about the narrowmindedness of the focus on power struggles and social justice by so many young people and academics alike.
The moral abomination is not jailing them ; experiments cannot be done with the safety of the public!
I feel ashamed to be Catholic knowing this guy teaches theology at Villanova
Same
"The black woke elite is fully aware it won’t achieve its declared goal of diminishing black oppression-and it doesn’t even want that. What they really want is what they are achieving: a position of moral authority from which they may terrorize all others, without effectively changing social relations of domination." Slavoj Zizek
That’s exactly what is going on today
I think this applies to the currently reigning elite, mostly white, not the the "black elite" necessarily.
Slavoj seems to be correct
Not just terrorise but cash in on the terror: behold BLM real estate investments and author's with three names book deals.
How would he know.
If you want to chase your tail examining "complex ideas," assume the converse.
Examine why lived experience DOES NOT convey authority, for example.
Glenn's "okay" at 8:57 is hilarious after this guy has prattled on for several minutes without even coming close to making a point. This guy is a professor??? Oh dear we are in trouble...
Wow… just wow.
My hats of and deep respect for Glenn and John. I really appreciate them having on a guest they are disagree with and being really respectful of him and his views.
Wow though. Some of the professors views just make me go …wow.
"Vincent, don't you find that a little narrow?" John articulating everything that's wrong with this obsession with domination in a single, simple, concise question. Mua!
John lives on an abstract cloud and has no real world application.
@@anyawaleofondo Oh for the love of god. The irony of you saying that about John, when he was talking to Prof Lloyd-possibly the most naive, head in the clouds, ivory tower intellectual I’ve ever seen.. simply amazing.
@@therainman7777 You are being led into the abyss.
McWorthless is a very sick man who is engaged in the whyte victimhood project.
Free! Yes! I'm 64 and tired of the whole thing. Freedom means just that. Freedom to live my life. Overcome obstacles. Adjust to changes. But to not be driven by my race alone. I'm much more than that.
Am I the only one who felt like Vincent was tossing a word salad?
It can sound like that. But what he's really doing is something many academicians do: He is very excited to discuss this topic and his brain is moving faster than he can speak. He has mastered, argued, explained, and memorized so much material so many times that he is accessing it all simultaneously. Sometimes it starts overlapping and intersecting and jumbles a bit. I work with engineers and physicists and other extremely smart people who sound just like this when engaged in conversations about their area of expertise. People like them put us on the moon. They don't necessarily keep the species re-populated.
With no dressing
@@jsharp3165 I know what you mean, but in the case of Prof Lloyd, I think you give him more credit than he deserves!
Umm, I think you meant to write Woke salad. Prof Lloyd is well meaning--as are most of the people captured by this virus--but bad ideas perpetuated by good people are as bad as bad ideas perpetuated by bad people. I don't want to live in a Woke world, but it seems we are on the event horizon of a utopian black hole. I hope I'm wrong. I hope that twenty years from now we'll be talking about Trumpism and Wokeism with relief that they are in our rear view mirror. I'm not that optimistic, however.
I suspect "Dr. Lloyd" is "on the spectrum."
Vincent's philosophy is an exegesis in despair whereas certain persons are made to feel empowered through helplessness and the recognition of their own subordination. How can one not describe this as a philosophy of losing?
It's Slave morality. 'nuff said.
Awareness is ALWAYS winning.
Yoo want heads in the sand approach as yoo are scared of reality.
Yoo R an awful coward.
@@stephencarter7266 Awareness is 'slave morality'??
@@ondolite3789 are you referring to me sir?
@@edwardsteam5457 Of course.
Equality of outcome is unattainable
Sadly, we can come close, by taking everything away from everyone and only the Dear Leader ends up more equal.
And the trees were all made equal by hatchet, axe and saw.
Yes..break free! Thank you Glenn and John.
Seeing the state of academia today, I understand why so many parents choose to homeschool their kids.
Vincent's point of view or lack thereof regarding historical domination and its theoretical impact on society today, makes me wonder if this is what Steven Pinker refers to as "presentism."
47:30 - Vincent clearly says here that the core abstract principles of the anti-racist ideology caused the students to become hammers in search of a nail. And due to the paucity of nails in their setting, they fashioned Vincent - the least likely person in the room - into a nail because they have to smash SOMETHING. It's a means without an end.
Marxism doesn't know how. As it progresses the purity spiral removes all but the most psychopathic from power.
How valuable to students this interactive conversation among peers would be if conducted in Prof. Vincent’s class.
"I'm a black professor and I"m talking to 2 other black professors, we all have pHd's and work at very prestigious universities but things have not been getting that much better for blacks over the past 50 years".
Cross Villanova off the list.
😂
He names 3 inequalities which are just the same inequality with different names. He also makes the major mistake that disparities are "proven" due to outcome
A cocktail - one of Liberation Theology, a shot of Victimology, all tossed over a nice mash of "They won't come for me if I just play word games, act nice, and give in but only up to the edge."
It won't end well for this one.
I generally enjoy G & J ‘s discussions but am at a loss as to why they’re wasting time, talking to a professional victim, who lives in a world of make believe.
Who cares. This perfectly distills the problem in one conversation. And John, who at heart is far more dismissive of many claims of white folks, needs to hear the level of amateurish nonsense spewed by crazy woke practitioners. The threat is real.
The moral abomination is the criminality committed by the people in said cages
Poor Dr Llloyd, he’s learned nothing and forgotten everything. My mother would have called him an educated fool. One day I hope to play either Glenn or John in a poker school, I think it might be a profitable evening. Thanks for the content
John’s face is hilarious!! He’s like wtf. What are we doing talking to this dude haha
I appreciate intelligent discussion wherever I can find it these days.
Thank you so much for this conversation!
We did all of the above with my sister multiple times. We finally had to flee to a different state to be safe and have peace of mind and waited it out till she did something again that put her back in a cage. Even dying of cancer later in her 40s with compassionate release she still kept hurting people and choosing to be with people that hurt her violently as well.
Yeah.. I’m sorry to hear your story, and sorry that you went through that. But what you’re citing is unfortunately a common pattern, for which we don’t currently have any solution other than confinement. Until medicine provides some miracle cure for changing people’s innate drives, it’s hard to see what else we can possibly do. In previous societies, these people would simply have been killed. I understand that prison doesn’t exactly sound humane, but I think it’s the best we have right now.
@@therainman7777 It's so tough indeed. ♥️
We need more of these conversations. Whatever you think of his arguments, Prof. Lloyd is willing to openly discuss his ideas with people who disagree.
I would encourage folks critical of Prof. Lloyd's ideas (and I am one of them) to be willing to listen and meet them with reasoned counterarguments. It seems to me that folks in the comments are being a bit dismissive. I would suggest that there are some concerns here that are valid enough to be discussed: levels of incarceration, continuing large disparities, etc.- even if you disagree about their moral salience, causes, or most effective ways to address them.
Except he's not actually making arguments. He's asserting the tenets of his religion, which are intentionally couched in gibberish to protect them from reasonable debate.
There was no argument. I couldn’t listen to the guy. All I heard for the time I was able to listen was that the ideals of slavery are still pervasive today. F that. I reject it and anything that follows.
Would you rather be black and applying to a job and school or Asian? I’d rather be black and deal with the price for a crime that I committed due to my oppression claim the activists, and the Soros appointed DA nodding along.
I see nothing but black privilege in todays America.
The concerns are certainly valid. And I agree that we should have real discussions about how to effectively address them. But I don't think Professor Lloyd was doing that.
What about his position on the community holding criminals accountable makes sense to you? I don't mean that I disagree with it, but I don't know what he means by it, and I don't think he does, either.
I ultimately find it frustrating how the side that wants to eliminate oppression and the prison system doesn’t seem to have any reasonable ideas on how to do so…?
@@brianmeen2158 I think any honest analysis of the problem inevitably leads to the conclusion that you need to restore strong nuclear families. There is no other solution. Problem is that nobody has figured out a policy that can restore families and fatherhood.
the best part of this discussion, imo, are the pauses between the responses. it's good to have a moment to allow each statement to resound
I just found your site and even though, I don’t always completely understand everything that is being said, but I am enjoying it very much.