In case somebody found their way here trying to fight the overheating issue mentioned around 7:00 : Bought one of these a couple of weeks ago, you can easily get rid of the overheating by tweaking Voltage/Current accordingly. Problem is, that there are two versions of the Stepper out there, one rated for 1A, one rated for only 500mA. By testing and tweaking your reference voltage on your driver (factor for this stepper is ~0.8) you can easily drive them without overheating. I'm running mine at about 400mA and still get more than enough torgue due to the planetary drive. I'm using mine for a flying extruder setup due to the light weight and can absolutely recommend it for this specific usage :)
The extrusion limitation you see its not due to the extruder its due to melting capability of your hotend. When you reach that point the pressure increases exponentially, even if you double the pushing force it will make insignificant difference. We did made a deal with Bondtech, at the moment Orbiter with bondtech gear is not available because Bondtech gears do not respect their spek, the filament path is way off. We hope to get better gears from them and have the Orbiter avaiable with the original Bondtech gears.
@@DesignPrototypeTest Given the circumstances you have created its really hard for me to give you a constructive feedback. You are talking about many things you do not know about, distributing false information / fake news or just lying I don't know and frankly I do not care. I would recommend you to improve the quality of the content you share, do your research thoroughly before and make sure the information you distribute is correct if you are not sure of something you can always ask.
"Drama is open source" LOL. I got this vid recommended while searching for dual extruders. Then I'm like "this dude looks familiar" and then I remembered why I unsubbed from this channel long ago: IMO he's arrogant AF and that, combined with hypocrisy and pulling absurd accusations towards other creators out of his ass, makes this channel actually toxic to watch. There is so much potential in the content but he is a small, bitter man.
Is this dude still ignoring that you can ask the creator directly if he'd grant you a different type of license which allows commercial use? Not only that, but is he shitting on the creator for making his work public with the understanding that you can't profit of HIS OWN WORK? Bruh
@@WhiteG60 yeah he is like most of us flawed humans. we can easily see the flaws of others but are mostly blind to our own sometimes hypocritical mindsets.
Also, the CC non-commercial seems a little unclear to me. Like is it about the design or the physical product? For example, could I take his step files make changes, release those changes for free. But then sell a physical extruder part based on my new design for profit? I think that would be allowed as long as I don't try and lock down my design changes and release that. I have not dug deeply into it, but I was trying to read about it and the CC license seems to be purposefully ambiguous about it.
Also, bondtech didn't invent dual gearing, or hob gears. Saying then that they are completely responsible and therefore own the concept of dual hob gearing in 3d printing is complete smooth-brain logic. I like bond tech, they make good stuff. And I hope they are rewarded for it handsomely. But when flogs like this who've never contributed anything but criticism grandstand in the way of progress I want to slap them and scream "GO FUCKING SUPPORT THEM AND BUY THEIR SHIT. PAY A LITTLE BIT MORE FOR THE PRODUCT, YOU EARN A LIVING OFF ALL THESE GUYS BRILLIANCE FFS" Engineering is a very different marketplace than influencing, it's about progress and contribution, rather than manipulation and pretending to play fair for donation.
I completely understand your point about cloners, but at 5:15 when you say "maybe if there were no clones, Bond Tech would not be charging such a large amount. I don't know", that might be one of the most ridiculous things i've ever heard you say (which isn't that common granted). Since when has having a monopoly on a product ever led to price _decreases_ ? If anything, Bond Tech could, and if they're remotely rational, would, charge more. The fact that there are clones means they can only be so exorbitant.
Matthew didn't use any of TT's content or knowledge base in this video, they are two different videos on the device. However, when TT copied Matthew's cnc video, TT completely based his video off of Mathew's video and his explanations. We proved this by asking TT cnc questions in live chat about cnc processes and he couldn't answer because he had no background in machining.
For someone who talks so much trash about 'knockoffs', this guy certainly spends a lot of money on them, thus supporting the knockoff industry. -Sock puppet
Yeah I don't get it. First he says Triangle Labs is disgusting for ripping off designs. Then the next segment is a review of a clone that ripped off most of the parts in it.
This is the guy that had a go at teaching tech for stealing his videos so he made less money and then complains that the design isn't open source so others can't make money of this design. He doesn't realise how much he's a hypocrite
@@rentaspoon219 This is an extruder review by a guy who knows what he is talking about - unfortunately in Russian ruclips.net/video/ZA6nHie0O08/видео.html
If all us poor folk are gonna buy knock offs anyway, better to have a guy like this that takes shit apart and explains it so we dont spend money on junk. I dont want to buy junk over and over till i find something that works
Honest question here, even tho I know you don't get back to comments on YT, but I'm still going to try: why do you think anyone would reach out to bondtech to get their blessing for a gear? You yourself said in previous vids [biqu H2 video, minute 6:41] that "it's the answer everybody is going to come to" AFAIK, bondtech holds no patents or rights to those gears, and I'd find it strange if they did because there is so much prior art on the concept that a claim could no t stand against it. where do you draw the line then? I guess we'll never know.. after the OpenSource video idk.. I think you fell through a bit
the reality its even more silly, because basically any person who wants to make a lower weight extruder is completely free to choose where from to source the gearing components parts set from. so its entirely up to the individual but you can buy 100% original bontech gears from bondtech themselves. and then source seperately the rest of the extruder. so the reality he is more like saying... 'im going to buy from mercedes an original genuine mercedes engine, and then make around that the rest of the sports car by myself. because mercedes dont actually sell a lightweight sports car, all their products weight twice as much, and that isnt good enough for my own needs, i know i can do that chassis part of it a lot better, but not the engine'. oh wait but the chinese also makes a mercedes clone engine and cloned mercedes parts that fits (but is inferior). so im going to buy it from china instead rather than make it myself. and then criticise the western designer of the rest of the car. for all the chassis and bodywork part. simply because in my ignorant opinion that much smaller independant sports car maker should not have 'ripped of mercedes' but instead should have made his own engine 100% everything entirely from scratch. because what i say so is the reality, not the fact that its all completely entirely normal SOP for the sports car industry, and all entirely above board. its downright misleading is what it is
He also complains about how clones hurt the 3d printing community. Then proceeds to order a clone of the orbiter instead of sourcing genuine parts. And owns clones of e3dv6 hotends. If he had to buy a 60 hotend to cut the mount off of just to make this video he would be complaining that there are no cheap alternatives for experimentation
Even as a clone, you yourself point out that this isn’t up to same standards as BondTech. We don’t need to rely on government patents and copyrights - the work speaks for itself. Also, plenty of companies raise money for their design first, such as on Kickstarter and Indigogo, or subscriptions such as Patreon, before it’s released and inevitably cloned. Creativity doesn’t need copyrights and patents to be funded and flourish.
@@dreamcat4 i think this series was either made a while ago and he hit a hitch in this video or he might just not have read your comment, keep in mind these videos could have happened months ago and are only uploaded now
@@matthewweinberger7023 dude the first time i recomended the sherpa mini was before he even received his orbiter extruder. it was after he said he ordered it, still on the was from china in shipping. and also it is pretty darn clear in this last video he made this one after his last previous one. because of how he refers back to it. and certainly i wasnt the only guy here talking about the sherpa mini all by myself. there were a whole bunch of us recommending he look into it
The duel gear extruder is an old idea, it was developed originally for wire feed welders not 3D printers so all the duel gear extruders for 3D printer are knock-offs in a since, so maybe getting on others using the idea is pointless.
Clones should drive prices down, not up - that’s how competition works. If bondtech wants clones to go away they need to lower their prices. “But what about R&D costs?” Those are sunk costs, as are the tooling costs - that’s the capital investment - unit prices should be based on the incremental costs (ie the materials and labor it costs to sell one unit) + margin. After that it’s just a question of the product lifespan to determine what RoI period you have.
Came here to say pretty much the same thing. But your conclusion is lacking. If you discount R&D cost no one will research. The way a company would operate under your rules would kill Open Source which would be a sad world.
To hold intellectual property on mechanical design, you either need a feature novel enough to patent or its fair game. I'm not sure you understand how IP works.
Yeah this dude hides his elitism behind virtue for sure. It's so hard watching him, even when.he had some decent knowledge, because he wraps it in "you're a bad person if you can't afford the best shit out" and talks big about not buying anything but the name brand of OPEN SOURCE components, while working on Chinese clones and buying from companies that make clones, and contradicts himself all the time.
I appreciate the know-how that you put in most of your work, but your constant rant against Chinese companies is infuriating. Every time there is something reviewed you recognize the merit but you bash them for doing it cheaper. For some places in this world, US or Canada included, there is a demand for cheaper products. You have to recognize that the hobbyist market is mostly created, enlarged and mentained by the Chinese products. I am not a puppet for some Chinese brand, as you like to say, but a 3d print aficionado. I don't have a budget of 200$ to buy a hotend. I buy the whole gantry, hotend and extruder for that amount from different vendors. I understand that you do what you have to do as a US based influencer, but your audience is global and you should take this in consideration. Please review some US based products and see if their quality, availability and price is adequate the the hobbyist market. (This comment covers not only this clip, but most of them in the last period)
You beat me to responded. TriangleLabs makes some great high quality items. They may be clones.... etc. IMHO they are often way better than the original for less. The Chinese industry is completely different. Deal with it. Somethings are horrible quality and some are top notch. There is nothing wrong with that. If you don’t like them don’t use them. Enough. Too bash TL because you think they did damage to another company is just hilarious. Competition creates innovation.
Just because clones piss him off doesnt mean he should stop reviewing them. All of us watch these videos to find out what is cheap and what is 'junk'. This guy takes shit apart to tell us why and saves us a lot of money in the process and we dont have to pay him a cent. Ive learned so much from this channel and others like it that have possibly saved me 100s of dollars
@@richiebricker Richie, I was a subscriber here but not anymore, the reason being The rants just overshadow the content. It's either Prusa or the chinese.. Show me something affordable for the average hobbyist that came out of the US of A? Nothing. Hotends for 170 quid and all sorts of other overpriced and overrated stuff. Just as William mentioned above, not everyone can afford 170 quid hotend or 200 quid extruder, or whatever, and looking for affordable options. The other thing is, he's giving out about the chinese but at the same time uses chinese built printers.. That's a bit of a hypocrisy, don't you think?
100% agree with you. Followed a link to see a review of this extruder as Dr. Google suggested, and by the 4th minute got tired of rants and tantrums.. Since there are no affordable alternatives coming out of Western EUrope or US of A, well, we'll keep sponsoring what they call here, Communist regime. And to be honest, Made in USA or EU or whatever is not guarantee for quality anymore. Just like some tools I saw recently, Designed in USA but... (Made in China). This means "Jack shit" to most of us. I thought I've blocked suggestions for this channel but somehow it sneaked in. Complete waste of time.
There's been a new release v2.0, addresses some of the concerns - might be worth a look! Constrains the filament path better, bit smaller depth-wise, bit lighter, designed better for injection moulding, better mounting/filament path to reduce torsion on the mount, higher extrusion force. The "official" offering by LDO is glass-chopped PA12 nylon, w/POM planetary gears, peek sleeve on secondary drive gears, "optimized" motor which has a higher output (~40% more @ 1.2A).
I think they say you should get close to 500-600mA. But your temps seem plenty acceptable with ~50°. But the lower current should result with slightly lower temps, although at the cost of more torque. (For context, I have 1 v1 orbiter and 2x v1.5)
Nice review! I own the 1.5 version and absolutely love it. Just one thing about the over heating issue with the LDO stepper motor. You need to drop the current down on your stepper driver. My normal steppers run around 800 and i had to drop this down to 350 (I can't remember off the cuff if it is RMS or voltage). This fixes any over heating issues. I have mine running for days on end and it doesn't heat up noticeably. Keep up the great content :)
You should check out the Sherpa MINI Extruder. It uses the same motor as the Orbiter but uses the Bontech BMG gear set and it is 35 gr lighter than the Orbiter.
@@lore2165 the gear ratio determines the output torque and not the gear type. Both extruders have approximately the same gear ratio and thus similar extrusion force.
i love triangle labs. quality clones. if it weren't for cheap quality clones I wouldn't be able to justify the cost of upgrades and experimentation on my machines. I think cheap knock offs give some of us the drive to push the limits of what we already have and that is good for the 3D printing community. As someone in the comments already said if the OG brands want the clones to go away then they need to get the price into a competitive market. or have an extremely superior quality. But unfortunately that's not the case
It is very good to see your videos, cause you really evaluate without any commercial commitment, show the weaknesses, but recognize the improvements. As a Brazilian, I wanted to suggest something that could improve in your videos, I don't know how it works, but it would be interesting for you to enable automatic captions on RUclips, although I understand what you say, a caption would complement some parts where I was not able to to understand. Keep up the great work, thanks.
I think i bought an orbiter because of this video. I was trying to find it again because i was sure that someone had chopped up a v6 and connected it directly. Glad i found this video again. I just bought an h2 as well
I have the 1.5 version and at 350 milliamps, it got so hot I could not touch it. I currently have it set at 200 milliamps and its warm but not blistering hot. Maybe I have to much voltage? Using marlin 2.0 on ender 3 pro. So far, it has not skipped at 60 speed. I am having a issue with hearing a clung sound when it retracts. I am assuming this is backlash in the gears.
Please take this a cronstructive criticism. I often find your videos hard to watch because you are often so negative about so many things; clearly you have a view about "Open source" and "cloning" thats fine but it does come across as simply anti everything that isnt American (that may not be your intention!). The observation that "if clones didnt exist, things would be cheaper" is illogical! but IP apart, you kind of attacked the designer for his choices about the thing he created, thats just not fair. I like the subjects but please "lighten up".
Don't hold your breath, plenty of people have asked him the same over the years. And this video was not even that bad. Sometimes, he comes off as if the whole (3D) world wants to keep him down and conspiracies start flying. It's the reason I unsubbed a few years back. But once in a while a search for a review brings me back here.
I'd really like to see a video of you talking about some of the custom extruder/hot-end combos that are out there, like those from MirageC (HevOrt Guy, Hextruder), Vez3D and the Voron community. We're deep into 3d printing if we're watching your content (those who aren't typically stop the dive with Teaching Tech, or Maker's Muse), so I think that having your view of even the custom built extruders out there would be really helpful. I just had to pull the trigger on a $300 hot end + extruder upgrade, hoping for the best because other than Vez3D and MirageC no one is really talking about those extruders, and its kinda hard to take their word for it when they are the people who made the thing AND don't have other hot end and extruder reviews. I need the 2 star review of these things damn it!
i made a water cooled extruder for my HT printer. its full metal and only 140g without the motor. let me know if you want to take a look at it (cant send it to you). would like to hear your opinion.
If you want to save weight on the hotend, check out the Maxiwatt hotends. They are disks instead of blocks and the heater runs circles around the nozzle and feed instead of being to the side. These things heat up fast and completely uniformly and as they have the same diameter as a standard hotend is wide, but are round, they are about 10-20% lighter while having better thermal control.
I'm sorry but there is a lot wrong with this review. You should have done more research, especially about the history of development of this extruder. From things you say, it is clear you don't know the background.
I am not an engineer, so i can only ask. Is it possible that not only the weight matters but the balance as well? The BQ2 seems like way better balanced than the orbiter
nope. For example, if You mount the Biqu H2 on Your printer on front of your carriage, all the mass go to the front. In Orbiter the motor go to the back and ballance is much better
I'm not sure if you saw, but mellow (from AliExpress) has a slightly more lightweight (then the biqu h2) called the mellow NF sunrise. It looks to be all metal hotend (no plastic), it has a 5:1 gear reduction, slimmer dimensions than the h2, and a similar round nema 14 like the orbiter (but I think it's a little thicker, so hopefully with more output). The design is pretty interesting, and could possibly allow for more amperage. Maybe worth taking a look at, wether or not your going to buy it, worth at least to see what it has to offer. :)
@@DesignPrototypeTest no problem, I've been eyeing it myself for the last few days trying to talk myself out of not buying it. Lol but it seems so cool, I really want to try it. It does take one design que from the lgx, but I think it's different. They both have a lever for the filament grabbing. The lgx uses it with multiple positions for different amounts of tension on the filament, but the sunrise still has a tension screw. Although the sunrise does have a lever, like the lgx, when the lever is up, there is no tension on the filament (for easier filament loading) I messaged them about the motor possibly getting too hot (I think it's the 20mm thick motor vs the orbiter v1 which generally used the 17mm thick one, but it could also come with the 20mm one depending on who you bought it from). But they said one of the reasons they left the metal casing open on the 40mm fan side, was to allow for airflow to hit it and help keep the temps cool. Seems somewhat like a gimmick, but maybe I'm wrong Lol. They do claim that they run their motor at 1.2A.... I'm not sure, I think that's a lot, even with some airflow. But I think 1A would be doable and still be keeps within reasonable temps. It also uses a standard v6 thread so you can get it with volcano or upgrade to something more powerful (not sure what, but I'm sure there are other options), but that would only be if the motor could keep up. I did have a question about the max flow rate. Would it increase if you tried a larger nozzle(like 0.6mm)? Or would it be too much work on the motor? And same question, but the other way, would it flow rate increase if you used a **smaller** nozzle(like 0.25mm) , Because the motor would turn less and thus could push more? Or would the increased pressure of the smaller nozzle be too much the flow rate would not change? I understand that there's more than just number of rotations per minute and torque that goes Into it. Just got me curious. Perhaps you have some insight?
@@DesignPrototypeTest I was just think about the possibility of a better heater block. And I remember seeing something on Amazon. It's called the "Maxiwatt heater cartridge". It's a round heater block with Integrated thermistor and heater core. The 30w and 40w ones are ~$19 and the 50W one is ~$36 (they have both 12v and 24v). It's claim to fame is that the heating element fully surrounds the block (instead of just on one single side). For the 40w one I saw a review on there of someone using 2 stacked together, calling it "A superior volcano" Idk might be a gimmick, or it might actually be good. It seems like an interesting idea nonetheless. And you seem like the perfect one to take a look at it, and either tear it apart or praise it. Lol the most interesting part to me is that they thermistor is integrated, so temps should be very stable (after a pid tune or 2). But I'm used to using the glass bead thermistors which are hit or miss on stability, unless I put a blob of thermal paste in the hole. I tend to use cheaper hot ends with upgraded throats/heatbreaks. like I said about that nf sunrise, at the very least worth taking a look at, wether or not you buy it. :) Edit: After messaging an Australian RUclipsr (only review in English I've seen on the Maxiwatt on RUclips), his dies after a month. So quality may be a little iffy. Amazon reviews seem positive (but we all know how reliable amazon reviews are... Lol)
@@petercallison5765 well you need a bmg (30 for clone or ~80 for Original) and the motor for 20-25 + print the parts yourself. Or about 40-45 for the assembled version on AliExpress vs 45-50 for the orbiter non AliExpress. Not sure where you see a 50% price difference.
it's nice to see that your supporting a company that's practically patent trolling (slice) which is actually STOPPING the evolution of 3d printing (dragon) which was cheaper, and better than the mosquito.
true dat. also the GENUINE version of this motor (perhaps not the chinese clone one he got) is the LDO 1004AHG. And that is specifically been designed for operating intentionally to be hotter. It's actual engineering at work. By designing this motor to run mugh hotter, you save the weight that way. so the outside t-case SHOULD in fact (for this motor not other steppers) be something like 70-75c. If all is working correctly. With the core coil temp being significantly higher than that inside the hottest part of the motor internally. Which leads you to then entirely question the validity of his testing here, because not only was there no sticker on the back of the motor, meaning it might not be genuinely the right part. But also his reported temps was only 50c. Which is in fact a lot lower then it is supposed to be. So maybe it was being under driven? Who knows. Very difficult to then make any reasonable assessment / comparison to the other BIQU one. In terms of the maximum extrusion rate etc. HE can say HIS article in front of HIM performs that way. For his own immediate usages and purposes. But it does not inform or help anybody else out there, who wants to get the proper versions of these components. And do it RIGHT. Instead of dicking around half assed with questionable stuff.
I did not realize that there is multiple versions of this motor so that is good to know. It does make it difficult to evaluate what exactly has been tested and what performance you can expect it you order one from AliExpress, Banggood or similar. The item description is not typically all that good.
@@christianmarkussen6412 there is an LDO company rep for USA region. his name is Jason, and he provides genuine LDO motors to a variety of genuine 'boutique' small timer 3dp stores, which are their own indepentent USA businesses. for example PrintedSolid is one of them, and a few other places like that. There are also certain specific sellers on Aliexpress which will sell the genuine ldo motor. But not just any random ones. It is something that you really need to ask about on the various 3d printing community discord servers. In fact LDO motors itself has its own discord server too
I remember you messing with desktop milling machines. Why not convert a Proxxon mf70 or use an Ghost guner 3. I know that the GG seems edgy but it looks like a cool desktop milling machine.
I can send you a picture of the gears i melted in the LGX. Overheating extruders is a thing that can happen to all extruders depending on how you use it. Also, dude, if your extruder is 150 deg c, you're not pushing filament, you're chewing through it. The "all metal" really isn't a magic cure to heat creep and high temp printing in enclosures.
I've been trying really hard to find a lightweight hotend and extruder setup that I can afford for faster printing, but also to print nylon and higher temperatures. There are many options, but they all seem so complicated in what's compatible and what's not, which parts/upgrades are required and which one's are not... which one's will work on my printer (stock ender 3) and which one's won't. I've spend a pretty good amount of time reading up on it too. Probably more than most people would, because I can't afford to waste any more money. Bought a Sprite extruder hotend setup thinking it was all I needed only to find out that I ordered the wrong thing and only got the extruder. Now I don't know if it would be better to get the parts to finish building a sprite extruder or if I should just start over (because even to finish the sprite extruder seems more expensive than other options). I really just wish I could find a good, simple, already assembled setup (assembly) that I could just install and use to speed up printing and also to be able to print nylon.
why dont u use some aluminium foil etc to use half of the air (from top of the radiator that is cooler) going trough hotend radiator to cool the engine and run it more than 1A
He's not copying Bondtech. Bondtech is manufacturing the drive gears for him, they ARE bondtech gears. I'm not sure about the timing, but it appears he was the one to design the larger sided gears which Bondtech later adopted.
I have genuine bondtech lgx extruders and the orbiter v1.5. For a "hobby grade" extruder in your opinion, its the best damn extruder I have found. The combination of planetary gears and good size smooth bearings along with the over sized gears make this one of the most consistent extruders and for the price it's a steal. Bondtech extruders are nice but I doubt they would have given the creator a reasonable offer to use any gears if they are not open source already. On top of that bondtech getting in bed with slice just gets a bit too greedy for my taste lately.
good morning, he talked in the movie about extruder weight and gosting generated by higher mass ... are you really sure ??? Has he ever weighed a bed with its Y axis to see how much mass is moving? This obviously applies to the classic cartesian door not to the xy cores.
I have weighed the beds on several printers. The Y axis is always the heaviest axis on printers with 200mm x 200mm beds or larger. The possible exception is The Orange Czech Mk.3 printer. They seem to have done a good job engineering a lightweight Bed, but there is only so much weight you can drop before structure/stiffness starts to suffer.
Quote from the video "And the result of running all these tests I figured out the maximum feedrate of 315mm/min" I don't know where you got the idea that I calculated that value. It's a number which was arrived at via experimentation. The calculated value I made for for the equivalent nozzle speed based on that maximum feedrate: 315mm/min. = 5.25mm/sec. Cross section area of 1.75mm filament is 2.41mm² Cross section area of single line extrusion .4mm wide and .2mm tall is .08mm² 2.41/.08=~30 5.25*30=~160mm/s nozzle speed.
Who the hell prints their hotend/extruder stuff in PLA? Those people are the only ones who have to worry about a 60c stepper softening anything. Nothing on a machine should be PLA. Nothing. After watching this series it's apparent that you have no place "reviewing" or "testing" any of this. There's wrong information, no research, and omitted information abound.
The concept of Glass Transition Temperature (GTT) tells us that plastic starts to get more "rubbery" as it enters into the temperature zone of the transition. But there is no hard and fast cutoff to get into and out of the zone of transition. When you read that Nylon has a GTT of 47 °C that doesn't mean that at 46°C it is solid. In fact, Nylon will suffer from significantly more "plastic creep" at 46°C than it would at 0°C. The material used in the SLS printing of this hotend is probably Nylon 6-6 which has a GTT of about 70 °C. I've gotten stepper motors up to 90°C in the past. So, the temperature of the motor being driven hard could easily surpass the GTT of the extruder body. It won't go fully molten but in the softer state it will deform if under any sort of tension. The cantilevered mounting of the motor gives some tension. In combination with the vibrations from printing it's a very reasonable criticism that the motor mount could deform under prolonged usage. This detailed explanation can be verified with any mechanical engineer or by doing 10 minutes of research/reading on the internet. So my question to you is will you acknowledge that your comment was overly critical? The scientific process dictates that you must first look for evidence then you form a hypothesis based on the evidence. I think you have pre-judged me and you are now looking for evidence to support your conclusion. This is the opposite order which you should be conducting things. Your thinking goes by the name of "Confirmation Bias" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias#:~:text=Confirmation%20bias%20is%20the%20tendency,one's%20prior%20beliefs%20or%20values. I would ask you to please reconsider your pre-ordained judgement of me. Neither I nor my channel are what you think they are.
OK, here he goes again... can't you just drop the rant and get to the topic you're supposed to talk about (at least what you're representing in the video preview). I've been watching your channel for quite some time because of the technical content, but for the life of me, I can't remember a single video where you don't take off on a rant of some sort about what somebody else did or didn't do. This is getting old man. When you get off on a rant, you sound like a bitter ol'granny bitching about everything under the sun. Just as a friendly advice: you're probably turning off a lot of viewers because you can't seem to be able to control yourself bitching about somebody else instead of focusing on your own stuff. You need to realize that every viewer has limited time to watch RUclips. When you just rant away, you're wasting someone else's precious time. And let me tell you that there are a lot of other choices out there. Do yourself a favor, drop the rant, and focus, focus, focus. As far as I'm concerned, you've pretty much exhausted the extent of my patience (and discretionary free time). I'm right there at the very edge. Maybe I'll come back, maybe I won't. But I'm sure as Hell no longer going to be a subscriber... "Live and let live." C'mon man. I hope you will learn from this....
If ya hate the dude then watch something else. Hes giving you free honest product reviews and taking that shit apart. An honest review is becoming a harder thing to find. People like this save me alot of money
Ive learned so much from this channel in the last 6 months, so being 'Dirt Poor' You are a much needed commodity. Dont let the haters keep ya from helping the rest of us out. No one else is taking shit apart to find out the why's and how's of it all, so Thanks again.
I noticed you are running different acceleration and instant change values then is recommended. It can actually run instant change of 300 and accel of 3600.
Bondtech always charged a shitload and anyone would would pay $90 USD for a BMG.... Well whatever floats your benchy. My problem with Bondtech is they are passing the price of their SLS based printers onto the consumer instead of just having the case injection molded which is not only much cheaper but better.
Bought one of these about 8 months ago it worked great for 8 days of printing 24 hours a day then the motor quit working ordered new motor but it seems the gear train is warnout looks nice but I cannot trust it.
In what freaking world has clones made 3d printing worse? If there hadn't been any clones, 3d printing would be out of reach of the vast majority of the people who currently use them... That's the worst take I've heard in a good while...
When was the last great innovation in 3D printing? Opportunity brings innovators. Cloning solidifies the current technology. It makes it readily available but it stops innovation. When nobody can sell a printer that costs more than $300. There's no room for expensive but innovative printers in the marketplace. You clearly don't care about innovation. All you care about is inexpensive products.
@@DesignPrototypeTest It's never been like that though. There seems to be no problem at all selling printers for more money, even now that clones are everywhere... Yes, selling a 1000 dollar printer is always going to be harder, but the people who buy clones were never going to buy them to begin with so they're not even really competing for anything... If 100 people buy a genuine part and another 1000 buy clones, I'd argue that's way better for everyone involved than 100 people buying genuine, and the other 1000 people buying nothing and finding another hobby. Clones have increased the size of the community tenfold, so I'd argue their existence is doing way more to help these companies than hurting them...
I'm doing some upgrades to my printer and the shipping and exchange made a mosquito with bondtech extruder and a cht nozzle come to almost 700 Canadian haha I ordered a microswiss for my ender and an e3d hotend to go with a genuine titan I already have and I came out at 300. A mosquito would've been overkill anyway but the cht nozzle grinds my gears because I really wanted it. Our weak Canadian dollar sucks haha
Bondtech does all the design, documentation, etc... These companies rip off their months of work in a few weeks and charge much less.. The community then complains that Bondtech, Slice Engineering, E3D, etc are overpriced!
Just How much lighter IS that Stepper ? Then there is the planetary gear setup . A problem of When... Not if. Metal precision 1st world Planetarys have wear concerns. Imagine those of low grade 'off shore' production.. Not a good prognosis. Not a hope I would buy one of those.... Brochure Babbles and Shills .. notwithstanding.
yikes got recommended this channel again, sorry but your views are absurd, seems you think everyone copied everyone, then pick and choose who its okay to copy and who cant copy. pure hypocrisy at best. and how naive do you have to be to believe that without competition bondtech would offer their stuff cheaper? in what world does that work, that's literally a monopoly and normally that is not a good thing.
Hey Man, welcome back to the channel. It's true that economic theory says the competition should make genuine Bondtech products come down in price. However, I'm not seeing that happen. Bondtech has stayed the same price. So, I partially agree with you and I said as much in the response video here:ruclips.net/video/WXuROHPXH38/видео.html I disagree with you adamantly that copying is ok. It would be acceptable if the original creator was acknowledged and fairly compensated for his contribution. The situation with China today makes this not the case. They just copy the innovation and the person who came up with it get's burned for having put in all the good work. I talked about it here: ruclips.net/video/WXuROHPXH38/видео.html I want to believe that you are who you represent yourself to be. Just a viewer who has previously seen my content and is seeing it again with an already formed opinion of me. But I don't know you or who you are. Your account tells me nothing and I am constantly harassed by anonymous Trolls, Sock Puppets, and know-it-alls who want to feel superior/smarter than me. Tell me why I shouldn't put you in the same category as these guys? Are you here to honestly hash out the issue and arrive at an answer that is best for the future of 3D printing or do you have an ulterior motivation?
@@DesignPrototypeTest well, the issue I see is you jumping on the idea of "this is a clone, clone is bad" mentality . you got to remember the entire 3d printing industry is copying each other to some extent, you can look at the slice engineering mosquito, the bimetalic heat break, I can see mentions of it from back in 2012 from E3D, the use of the rods to do 1 handed nozzle removal, CR-10 hot end was at least using it well before slice was even a thing. you could do this for pretty much everything that is on the market, there are very few that are actually new innovations because simply there's not many ways to skin a pig, thats why theres so few functional/engineering patents but many design patents. however this kind of behaviour is perfectly fine, they have added their own spin and ideas to the mix the orbiter is one of these too. the other category, the one I think we can both agree is bad for this community is the straight up knock offs, where someone has got a product from another company and made the exact same thing, the spider hotend would be an example of this. I do also believe there is more for these companies to do to try and stay competitive, a big issue I do see is they keep their manufacturing in the EU or USA, which is quite frankly cost prohibitive especially for low volume, the price shows this is going the same direction at EU and US solar went a few years back, they are banking on the "made in US/EU" sticker will make people pay the premium. and there's no real stepping stone, no budget option just the absolute best which really is a barrier to entry for some when some of their parts are the price of a whole printer. doesn't make it ok for knock offs to exist but at the same time, they are being uncompetitive and taking it laying down. but the main problem I have with the two videos I've seen is, the content is full and rich with info, and the YT algo is trying to push your content, however it is simply spoiled due to the lack of objectivity on the matter, you can simply state the facts of why you should support creators, such as their customer support, their high quality, etc you don't have to force it, you shouldn't need to tell people what to think, they should come to that conclusion themselves. end of the day I think most people came here to see a review on the orbiter extruder but the video deviates from giving an impression of the extruder to a lecture on why you believe its a clone of a BMG extruder
Your prior art you cited is without references. I cannot verify your words. Furthermore, The process for getting a patent is exhaustive and the search for prior art is a major part of that process. Slice has a patent on the Mosquito hotend. therefore, I'm going to trust the Intellectual Property experts here and make the safe bet that the prior art you cited is irrelevant. The patent process even has a special wording for the critique you are attempting to form: Obviousness. The concept is easily researched, and almost every patent submitted is initially "denied" for obviousness, and the patentor must appeal before being granted the utility patent. Of course everything is obvious in hindsight. You can't look back on an invention and ask if it was inevitable. Your perception and gut feeling of "Well duh, of course that's the best way to do it." is clouded by your future knowledge. Regarding your last paragraph: I'm not a robot. I don't play with 3D printers in a sterile vacuum of technical issues. How boring would that be to watch? The human issues and the broader context are relevant to my critiques of the tech. I'm sorry you have a problem with it. But you said it. You have a problem. It's not my problem, it's yours. I don't care if you watch my videos or not. I'm not going to deny the wider discussion like the proverbial ostrich head in the sand.
@@DesignPrototypeTest ofc the whole patent thing would be up to courts to decide, especially if they have patents on something that could be considered to prior art. slice have made improvements to the prior art so it makes it tricky, as NAL. but I believe however they do only have art/design patents which is why the phatetus dragon to my knowledge has never been removed, while the spider hotend has. "Slice has a patent on the Mosquito hotend. therefore, I'm going to trust the Intellectual Property experts here and make the safe bet that the prior art you cited is irrelevant. " now I want to bring you back to one of your older videos ruclips.net/video/Hf2lRzJQpu8/видео.html didn't prusa have a patent on something here you claimed to have done prior to them? I'm trying to understand what you believe here? that sometimes a patent can be issued when there is infact prior art or that it cant. I'm not asking you to be a robot, I'm asking that you ain't like American news where the viewer isnt allowed to form their own opinion and its just someone telling them what to think. if that's who you are and that's what you want from your channel go for it but as a viewer, it makes it hard to watch man, and yes that's my own problem but it seems like a lot of these people you call trolls and shills etc have the same problem and I think they are also people that are just fed up of this style of content. whether that is something you want to change is up to you but I don't think my opinion is a minority here. or even if you think something is a clone and is bad for this industry why even review it, why give it the time of day? promote those that you believe add value to this community and spread their name. because even negative publicity is publicity
If they make that motor in a dual shaft you could have a knob attached to the opposite side to manually turn it, if it was truly desired. I did that for one printer a while back once and it worked ok. Was thinking of buying a orbiter extruder to try but not sure what printer I'd actually use it on right now. Too many projects, not enough time. :)
I dont really get the "it's only cool because of this". Who cares if it's cool? Why does it being "cool" have a meaning for a utility like a 3D printer? This video feels like a lot of anger directed at a product, which really skews any kind of "review" it could offer.
The official 1.5 is a cool product. But i don't like it at all . flexables still jam up. And that would be fine if it was diy kit but is being sold as a finished product. And its not finished. I would argue that v1.5 its worse then .v1 .1.5 is built stronger but jams more. But that is my own experience. Maybe my own fault but no instructions no way to know
Fascinating and informational, as always. The conundrum is how light can you get it and offer higher performance? There are other, perhaps better performing motor choices, but all I know about are going to be heavier. A metal housing (even in titanium) will weigh more. Since the physics of fast 3D printing is so problematic, perhaps some other carriage/driver design is warranted. But what might that be. I, for one, am completely disillusioned with the delta printers. At first quite taken, I soon lost interest when the issues of print accuracy and finish quality surmounted speed by fairly large margin. I guess, my current best hope is some version of the improved corexy platform. In the end, no design is perfect, no laws of physics can be broken and no electro-mechanical devices can be made 100% reliable, nor super durable. Every conceivable option carries compromise. I can say that this particular device could run much cooler with a larger diameter pancake stepper.....with a weight penalty. Finally, I can’t get too worked up about the propriety of the gear train. It’s not really protectable. Otherwise, we’d have to search back to the first planetary gear head, and pay that designer, team or company for their first invention....if we were going to be absolutely honorable about these matters. While I respect your position, I must say that it isn’t, in practice, very strong. And I do agree, there are far too many abuses and encroachments going on, just as you state. Thanks again, keep ‘em coming!
I hate to tell you this but there's no such thing as a hob gear. There's gear hobbing equipment but no hob gear I'm a my machinist and robotics engineer. I actually make gears I don't use a hob I use standard gear cutters but I can promise you there's no such thing as a hob gear
We need a specific name for the sharp toothed gear that exists for the sole purpose of pushing filament. I'm happy to drop that nomenclature of "hob gear" if a better term exists. The problem is that we have so much legacy terminology in 3D printing. J-head, Hot-end, Cold-end, All Metal, Extruder, etc. Which part is the extruder? Is it the part that melts the filament or the part that pushes the filament into the melty part? Why do we call hotends without PTFE liners "All metal?" They should be called "unlined." So, please give me a new more correct name and I will start using it.
yeah it does not sound like the average rms current, which should be limited to 0.31-0.35a... if that was RMS firgure it would have burned out the motor
I think reprap settings are peak settings, but still its about double that i run.. My hextrudort on my hevort has a wantai 218 wich is a bit bigger and stronger, but i feed it 400 and even printin at 300mm/s on a volcano with .6 nozzle and .3 it stays cool.. as in.. 60 ish c
I think the point is that there's a line between weight savings and speed, and when if you focus on one too much, it's harder or impossible to do the other.
@@anotherperson9646 i run HevORT s hextrudort, Thats the same nema14 round motor based.. but with 5.5:1 gearing using the bmg gearset+ this round motor (i use a wantai 218) Just lookup vez3d or mirage C.. they do 500+mm/s on nova hotend+ these nema14 pancakes.. this extruder is not whats holding him back
@Aron Janssen I don't know too much of 3d printers so your likely right. But as an "outside observer", that was my conclusion to the video. It could be due to the gearing, because you said yours have a 5.5 instead of 7.5, but then the speed is supposedly about 200mm/s for a .4 nozzle, and you're using a .6 one in a higher speed, which could be due to less resistance, idk. The likely answer is the quality of the components. Idk what your using or if the quality is about the same, so the following statement may be bs, but the motor he used came with the extruder, which may or may not have good quality, idk. Also, since torque has to do with current, speed should be for voltage, so maybe he should've over volt than over current, although I am probably talking sh*t out of my mouth. Basically, idk what I just said, nor could I back it, and it was likely sh*t. It's just a thought
I did not realize that when I bought it. At that time they were sold out everywhere "reputable" and the listing I bought it from looked like an official supplier just from China.
Western supplies - hillarious. What do "think" all that stuff (some bitten fruit products for ex) comes from. "Made in America" or what attitude you are comming from. And then still you also only showing the "extruder" and some specifications. (Why is it not called feeder? Because technically correct is the nozzel and heating block the extruder, if not also including the feeder.) Rerant end.
Funny how much crap I get from people defending Open Source projects telling me I should have bought the genuine thing. On these low sales volume products where the genuine article is also made in China I can't tell the difference and I don't bother researching the "correct" purchasing pathway. Not to mention that the genuine version is frequently out of stock when I get called out and go back to see the price difference.
thing is sherpa mini is probably overall better option than superfly, i remember looking at superfly last week. that thing just isnt tested nearly as much. plus its like... why reinvent something the annex ppl already did right. its not better so what a waste to repeat and end up heavier than?
I'm looking at various bits and bobs, trying to make a sub 150g full hot end assembly from off the shelf parts with bondtech style gears. In this case, looted from a bondtech extruder. Currently I'm looking at a slice engineering heat break, I need to design a clamping system and a cooling system, but so far it's looking reasonably promising. I'm currently using a 40:1 worm gear, nema 8 stepper, and a 52 15 fan for cooling the heat sink and stepper motor. I'm not sure if it's actually going to work, because I currently only have a model. Genuine slice engineering mosquito heat brakes are not cheap, but if it all works it should be a pretty freaking light extruder setup capable of shoving out 20 to 30mm3/s. If I end up managing to get it recognized enough to get a commercial manufacturer interested, it's my intention to try to get it done in magnesium instead of nylon. Magnesium is only about half a gram per cubic millimeter heavier than nylon, and you can really drive that stepper motor to a very high heat using a magnesium frame
@@SignalJones so you want to do it in magnesium eh? that is not immediately considered because it reacts and corrodes, and/or can catch fire in HT applications. however maybe you can find any coat a decent alu/mg alloy that does not suffer from those drawbacks? regardless it will still need special machining however. and that is not usually 'all that cheap' at least going by examples of other magnesium alloy products. but you know... aluminium aint that bad either man! and you can machine aly at home on a cnc router that costs under $2000
Great video and thanks for the TinkSeal plug! Mixing metal with plastic is not a great idea without some form of lubrication. Usually the plastic has internal lubricants, but not in this design. Nylon is a great bearing material and has high abrasion resistance, but I don't foresee the two lasting very long without lubrication. I wish the bearings came with removable seals, repacking them with TinkSeal would greatly increase their lifespan as well.
the thing i dont see on the ebay listing is any indication for the maximum long term operating temperature. which is important to know, for those of us wanting to lubricate out mechanical parts inside of heated chambers. would be nice to know for that purpose
@@dreamcat4 Drop point is 177℃. TinkSeal was designed to dry over time, leaving its nano particles behind. These melt at varying temperatures as high as 1650℃.
I wore out the bearings on z-axis steppers and when I took them apart, I found carbon fiber dust grinding in the bearings. I replaced the bearings with higher grade ones with rubber seals. I repacked the bearings with TinkSeal and put the steppers back together. They have since worked great and didn't need replacing. I used a steel dental pick to remove the seals, this was pretty simple. I also use Tinkseal on my linear rails instead of oil. They glide nicer and will not need to be serviced for a very long time.
![[4K] Watch SpaceX Catch A Starship Rocket From Space!!! #IFT5](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pIKI7y3DTXk/mqdefault.jpg)
In case somebody found their way here trying to fight the overheating issue mentioned around 7:00 : Bought one of these a couple of weeks ago, you can easily get rid of the overheating by tweaking Voltage/Current accordingly. Problem is, that there are two versions of the Stepper out there, one rated for 1A, one rated for only 500mA. By testing and tweaking your reference voltage on your driver (factor for this stepper is ~0.8) you can easily drive them without overheating. I'm running mine at about 400mA and still get more than enough torgue due to the planetary drive. I'm using mine for a flying extruder setup due to the light weight and can absolutely recommend it for this specific usage :)
How do you change the voltage/ Amos on the motor? By the drivers trimer?
@@lore2165 on the firmware
Also, 50°, is not a high temperature, particularly if your printer is enclosed, in which case it's a nonfactor
The extrusion limitation you see its not due to the extruder its due to melting capability of your hotend. When you reach that point the pressure increases exponentially, even if you double the pushing force it will make insignificant difference.
We did made a deal with Bondtech, at the moment Orbiter with bondtech gear is not available because Bondtech gears do not respect their spek, the filament path is way off. We hope to get better gears from them and have the Orbiter avaiable with the original Bondtech gears.
Who is "we?" Who are you, and who else do you speak for?
@@DesignPrototypeTest :), its not that hard to find out. Do your research before publishing suppositions and false information.
Your ego is showing and it is ugly.
@@DesignPrototypeTest Given the circumstances you have created its really hard for me to give you a constructive feedback. You are talking about many things you do not know about, distributing false information / fake news or just lying I don't know and frankly I do not care. I would recommend you to improve the quality of the content you share, do your research thoroughly before and make sure the information you distribute is correct if you are not sure of something you can always ask.
@@DesignPrototypeTest For those reading this later, "MCube 3D" is the creator of the Orbiter.
Drama is open source but it definitely holds this channel back from being good
"Drama is open source" LOL. I got this vid recommended while searching for dual extruders. Then I'm like "this dude looks familiar" and then I remembered why I unsubbed from this channel long ago: IMO he's arrogant AF and that, combined with hypocrisy and pulling absurd accusations towards other creators out of his ass, makes this channel actually toxic to watch. There is so much potential in the content but he is a small, bitter man.
@@arthur1129 Well put.
@@arthur1129 You sound like a Ukrainian Shadow Puppet!!! LOL (that's my fav of his conspiracy theories.)
@@arthur1129 yep its why i ignore his videos when they come up
@@duality4y You can say that but your still watching
Is this dude still ignoring that you can ask the creator directly if he'd grant you a different type of license which allows commercial use?
Not only that, but is he shitting on the creator for making his work public with the understanding that you can't profit of HIS OWN WORK?
Bruh
@@WhiteG60 yeah he is like most of us flawed humans. we can easily see the flaws of others but are mostly blind to our own sometimes hypocritical mindsets.
Also, the CC non-commercial seems a little unclear to me. Like is it about the design or the physical product? For example, could I take his step files make changes, release those changes for free. But then sell a physical extruder part based on my new design for profit?
I think that would be allowed as long as I don't try and lock down my design changes and release that. I have not dug deeply into it, but I was trying to read about it and the CC license seems to be purposefully ambiguous about it.
Also, bondtech didn't invent dual gearing, or hob gears. Saying then that they are completely responsible and therefore own the concept of dual hob gearing in 3d printing is complete smooth-brain logic. I like bond tech, they make good stuff. And I hope they are rewarded for it handsomely. But when flogs like this who've never contributed anything but criticism grandstand in the way of progress I want to slap them and scream "GO FUCKING SUPPORT THEM AND BUY THEIR SHIT. PAY A LITTLE BIT MORE FOR THE PRODUCT, YOU EARN A LIVING OFF ALL THESE GUYS BRILLIANCE FFS"
Engineering is a very different marketplace than influencing, it's about progress and contribution, rather than manipulation and pretending to play fair for donation.
I completely understand your point about cloners, but at 5:15 when you say "maybe if there were no clones, Bond Tech would not be charging such a large amount. I don't know", that might be one of the most ridiculous things i've ever heard you say (which isn't that common granted). Since when has having a monopoly on a product ever led to price _decreases_ ? If anything, Bond Tech could, and if they're remotely rational, would, charge more. The fact that there are clones means they can only be so exorbitant.
Interesting - Teaching Tech did an orbiter video quite a while ago. Are you stealing from him? That’s what he does to you, right?
This did put a smile on my face ain't gonna lie
Matthew didn't use any of TT's content or knowledge base in this video, they are two different videos on the device. However, when TT copied Matthew's cnc video, TT completely based his video off of Mathew's video and his explanations. We proved this by asking TT cnc questions in live chat about cnc processes and he couldn't answer because he had no background in machining.
@@MichaelJHathaway that's hilarious
Hahaha he invited drama is open source and uses it as much as he can.
@@MichaelJHathaway lol this is so stupid.
For someone who talks so much trash about 'knockoffs', this guy certainly spends a lot of money on them, thus supporting the knockoff industry.
-Sock puppet
Does he really think Bondtech invented the gear wheel?
Yeah I don't get it. First he says Triangle Labs is disgusting for ripping off designs. Then the next segment is a review of a clone that ripped off most of the parts in it.
This is the guy that had a go at teaching tech for stealing his videos so he made less money and then complains that the design isn't open source so others can't make money of this design.
He doesn't realise how much he's a hypocrite
@@rentaspoon219 This is an extruder review by a guy who knows what he is talking about - unfortunately in Russian ruclips.net/video/ZA6nHie0O08/видео.html
If all us poor folk are gonna buy knock offs anyway, better to have a guy like this that takes shit apart and explains it so we dont spend money on junk. I dont want to buy junk over and over till i find something that works
Honest question here, even tho I know you don't get back to comments on YT, but I'm still going to try: why do you think anyone would reach out to bondtech to get their blessing for a gear?
You yourself said in previous vids [biqu H2 video, minute 6:41] that "it's the answer everybody is going to come to"
AFAIK, bondtech holds no patents or rights to those gears, and I'd find it strange if they did because there is so much prior art on the concept that a claim could no t stand against it.
where do you draw the line then? I guess we'll never know..
after the OpenSource video idk.. I think you fell through a bit
the reality its even more silly, because basically any person who wants to make a lower weight extruder is completely free to choose where from to source the gearing components parts set from. so its entirely up to the individual but you can buy 100% original bontech gears from bondtech themselves. and then source seperately the rest of the extruder. so the reality he is more like saying... 'im going to buy from mercedes an original genuine mercedes engine, and then make around that the rest of the sports car by myself. because mercedes dont actually sell a lightweight sports car, all their products weight twice as much, and that isnt good enough for my own needs, i know i can do that chassis part of it a lot better, but not the engine'. oh wait but the chinese also makes a mercedes clone engine and cloned mercedes parts that fits (but is inferior). so im going to buy it from china instead rather than make it myself. and then criticise the western designer of the rest of the car. for all the chassis and bodywork part. simply because in my ignorant opinion that much smaller independant sports car maker should not have 'ripped of mercedes' but instead should have made his own engine 100% everything entirely from scratch. because what i say so is the reality, not the fact that its all completely entirely normal SOP for the sports car industry, and all entirely above board. its downright misleading is what it is
He also complains about how clones hurt the 3d printing community. Then proceeds to order a clone of the orbiter instead of sourcing genuine parts. And owns clones of e3dv6 hotends. If he had to buy a 60 hotend to cut the mount off of just to make this video he would be complaining that there are no cheap alternatives for experimentation
this was the worst review, ive ever seen, lol
@@RamaOlama this dude talks about all the clones he owns while telling me its wrong to buy clones. literally do as i say not as i do
@@RamaOlama I really only care about the prints it can produce so we need to see it working.
Also, i have no clue about this, but did you ask the designer if he got the "blessing" from bondtech? if not then don't comment on it.
Even as a clone, you yourself point out that this isn’t up to same standards as BondTech. We don’t need to rely on government patents and copyrights - the work speaks for itself. Also, plenty of companies raise money for their design first, such as on Kickstarter and Indigogo, or subscriptions such as Patreon, before it’s released and inevitably cloned. Creativity doesn’t need copyrights and patents to be funded and flourish.
I'd like to point out that the mini sherpa from Annex Engineering is 50g lighter
lol me too, in fact i already did in previous 2 videos as does many others here. yet still 0 mention of it
Is the first thing that I thought. But it uses nylon on metal gears
@@lopu4991 well if the sherpa mini uses a bondtech gearset, then doesn't that mean bondtech does too?
@@dreamcat4 i think this series was either made a while ago and he hit a hitch in this video or he might just not have read your comment, keep in mind these videos could have happened months ago and are only uploaded now
@@matthewweinberger7023 dude the first time i recomended the sherpa mini was before he even received his orbiter extruder. it was after he said he ordered it, still on the was from china in shipping. and also it is pretty darn clear in this last video he made this one after his last previous one. because of how he refers back to it. and certainly i wasnt the only guy here talking about the sherpa mini all by myself. there were a whole bunch of us recommending he look into it
The duel gear extruder is an old idea, it was developed originally for wire feed welders not 3D printers so all the duel gear extruders for 3D printer are knock-offs in a since, so maybe getting on others using the idea is pointless.
Clones should drive prices down, not up - that’s how competition works.
If bondtech wants clones to go away they need to lower their prices.
“But what about R&D costs?”
Those are sunk costs, as are the tooling costs - that’s the capital investment - unit prices should be based on the incremental costs (ie the materials and labor it costs to sell one unit) + margin. After that it’s just a question of the product lifespan to determine what RoI period you have.
Came here to say pretty much the same thing. But your conclusion is lacking. If you discount R&D cost no one will research. The way a company would operate under your rules would kill Open Source which would be a sad world.
To hold intellectual property on mechanical design, you either need a feature novel enough to patent or its fair game. I'm not sure you understand how IP works.
Yeah this dude hides his elitism behind virtue for sure. It's so hard watching him, even when.he had some decent knowledge, because he wraps it in "you're a bad person if you can't afford the best shit out" and talks big about not buying anything but the name brand of OPEN SOURCE components, while working on Chinese clones and buying from companies that make clones, and contradicts himself all the time.
@@Epiphalactic I wonder if he knows how much of the internet runs on open source technologies
8:25 Isn't that all tilted? Did you drill it tilted? Probably affects performance a bit.
I appreciate the know-how that you put in most of your work, but your constant rant against Chinese companies is infuriating. Every time there is something reviewed you recognize the merit but you bash them for doing it cheaper. For some places in this world, US or Canada included, there is a demand for cheaper products. You have to recognize that the hobbyist market is mostly created, enlarged and mentained by the Chinese products. I am not a puppet for some Chinese brand, as you like to say, but a 3d print aficionado. I don't have a budget of 200$ to buy a hotend. I buy the whole gantry, hotend and extruder for that amount from different vendors.
I understand that you do what you have to do as a US based influencer, but your audience is global and you should take this in consideration.
Please review some US based products and see if their quality, availability and price is adequate the the hobbyist market.
(This comment covers not only this clip, but most of them in the last period)
You beat me to responded. TriangleLabs makes some great high quality items. They may be clones.... etc. IMHO they are often way better than the original for less. The Chinese industry is completely different. Deal with it. Somethings are horrible quality and some are top notch. There is nothing wrong with that. If you don’t like them don’t use them. Enough. Too bash TL because you think they did damage to another company is just hilarious. Competition creates innovation.
Just because clones piss him off doesnt mean he should stop reviewing them. All of us watch these videos to find out what is cheap and what is 'junk'. This guy takes shit apart to tell us why and saves us a lot of money in the process and we dont have to pay him a cent. Ive learned so much from this channel and others like it that have possibly saved me 100s of dollars
@@richiebricker Richie, I was a subscriber here but not anymore, the reason being The rants just overshadow the content. It's either Prusa or the chinese.. Show me something affordable for the average hobbyist that came out of the US of A? Nothing. Hotends for 170 quid and all sorts of other overpriced and overrated stuff. Just as William mentioned above, not everyone can afford 170 quid hotend or 200 quid extruder, or whatever, and looking for affordable options. The other thing is, he's giving out about the chinese but at the same time uses chinese built printers.. That's a bit of a hypocrisy, don't you think?
100% agree with you. Followed a link to see a review of this extruder as Dr. Google suggested, and by the 4th minute got tired of rants and tantrums.. Since there are no affordable alternatives coming out of Western EUrope or US of A, well, we'll keep sponsoring what they call here, Communist regime. And to be honest, Made in USA or EU or whatever is not guarantee for quality anymore. Just like some tools I saw recently, Designed in USA but... (Made in China). This means "Jack shit" to most of us. I thought I've blocked suggestions for this channel but somehow it sneaked in. Complete waste of time.
There's been a new release v2.0, addresses some of the concerns - might be worth a look! Constrains the filament path better, bit smaller depth-wise, bit lighter, designed better for injection moulding, better mounting/filament path to reduce torsion on the mount, higher extrusion force. The "official" offering by LDO is glass-chopped PA12 nylon, w/POM planetary gears, peek sleeve on secondary drive gears, "optimized" motor which has a higher output (~40% more @ 1.2A).
My V2 orbiter that arrived today states Bondtech orignal parts on the packaging with the bondtech logo.
If he has teamed up with triangle labs he doesn't have to worry about them cloning the orbiter nice vid
I think they say you should get close to 500-600mA. But your temps seem plenty acceptable with ~50°. But the lower current should result with slightly lower temps, although at the cost of more torque. (For context, I have 1 v1 orbiter and 2x v1.5)
Nice review! I own the 1.5 version and absolutely love it. Just one thing about the over heating issue with the LDO stepper motor. You need to drop the current down on your stepper driver. My normal steppers run around 800 and i had to drop this down to 350 (I can't remember off the cuff if it is RMS or voltage). This fixes any over heating issues. I have mine running for days on end and it doesn't heat up noticeably. Keep up the great content :)
You should check out the Sherpa MINI Extruder. It uses the same motor as the Orbiter but uses the Bontech BMG gear set and it is 35 gr lighter than the Orbiter.
but no orbitary geared so less torque
@@lore2165 the gear ratio determines the output torque and not the gear type. Both extruders have approximately the same gear ratio and thus similar extrusion force.
@@christianmarkussen6412 Oh thanks for explaning
i love triangle labs. quality clones. if it weren't for cheap quality clones I wouldn't be able to justify the cost of upgrades and experimentation on my machines. I think cheap knock offs give some of us the drive to push the limits of what we already have and that is good for the 3D printing community. As someone in the comments already said if the OG brands want the clones to go away then they need to get the price into a competitive market. or have an extremely superior quality. But unfortunately that's not the case
a lot of people also buy clones to test before buying the real thing inc myself
It is very good to see your videos, cause you really evaluate without any commercial commitment, show the weaknesses, but recognize the improvements. As a Brazilian, I wanted to suggest something that could improve in your videos, I don't know how it works, but it would be interesting for you to enable automatic captions on RUclips, although I understand what you say, a caption would complement some parts where I was not able to to understand. Keep up the great work, thanks.
I think i bought an orbiter because of this video. I was trying to find it again because i was sure that someone had chopped up a v6 and connected it directly. Glad i found this video again. I just bought an h2 as well
I have the 1.5 version and at 350 milliamps, it got so hot I could not touch it.
I currently have it set at 200 milliamps and its warm but not blistering hot. Maybe I have to much voltage? Using marlin 2.0 on ender 3 pro.
So far, it has not skipped at 60 speed. I am having a issue with hearing a clung sound when it retracts. I am assuming this is backlash in the gears.
Please take this a cronstructive criticism. I often find your videos hard to watch because you are often so negative about so many things; clearly you have a view about "Open source" and "cloning" thats fine but it does come across as simply anti everything that isnt American (that may not be your intention!). The observation that "if clones didnt exist, things would be cheaper" is illogical! but IP apart, you kind of attacked the designer for his choices about the thing he created, thats just not fair. I like the subjects but please "lighten up".
Don't hold your breath, plenty of people have asked him the same over the years. And this video was not even that bad. Sometimes, he comes off as if the whole (3D) world wants to keep him down and conspiracies start flying. It's the reason I unsubbed a few years back. But once in a while a search for a review brings me back here.
Still with the drama... This channel could be good but this crap is lame.
I'd really like to see a video of you talking about some of the custom extruder/hot-end combos that are out there, like those from MirageC (HevOrt Guy, Hextruder), Vez3D and the Voron community. We're deep into 3d printing if we're watching your content (those who aren't typically stop the dive with Teaching Tech, or Maker's Muse), so I think that having your view of even the custom built extruders out there would be really helpful. I just had to pull the trigger on a $300 hot end + extruder upgrade, hoping for the best because other than Vez3D and MirageC no one is really talking about those extruders, and its kinda hard to take their word for it when they are the people who made the thing AND don't have other hot end and extruder reviews.
I need the 2 star review of these things damn it!
personally not a fan of the biqu h2, its had a tonne of QC issues to the point that most arrive with atleast 50% of it damaged or unusable
i made a water cooled extruder for my HT printer. its full metal and only 140g without the motor. let me know if you want to take a look at it (cant send it to you). would like to hear your opinion.
If you want to save weight on the hotend, check out the Maxiwatt hotends.
They are disks instead of blocks and the heater runs circles around the nozzle and feed instead of being to the side.
These things heat up fast and completely uniformly and as they have the same diameter as a standard hotend is wide, but are round, they are about 10-20% lighter while having better thermal control.
I'm sorry but there is a lot wrong with this review. You should have done more research, especially about the history of development of this extruder. From things you say, it is clear you don't know the background.
First company I saw with dual drive gear technology was Printrbot.
I am not an engineer, so i can only ask. Is it possible that not only the weight matters but the balance as well? The BQ2 seems like way better balanced than the orbiter
nope. For example, if You mount the Biqu H2 on Your printer on front of your carriage, all the mass go to the front. In Orbiter the motor go to the back and ballance is much better
I'm not sure if you saw, but mellow (from AliExpress) has a slightly more lightweight (then the biqu h2) called the mellow NF sunrise. It looks to be all metal hotend (no plastic), it has a 5:1 gear reduction, slimmer dimensions than the h2, and a similar round nema 14 like the orbiter (but I think it's a little thicker, so hopefully with more output). The design is pretty interesting, and could possibly allow for more amperage. Maybe worth taking a look at, wether or not your going to buy it, worth at least to see what it has to offer. :)
Thanks for this tip Brandon!
@@DesignPrototypeTest no problem, I've been eyeing it myself for the last few days trying to talk myself out of not buying it. Lol but it seems so cool, I really want to try it. It does take one design que from the lgx, but I think it's different. They both have a lever for the filament grabbing. The lgx uses it with multiple positions for different amounts of tension on the filament, but the sunrise still has a tension screw. Although the sunrise does have a lever, like the lgx, when the lever is up, there is no tension on the filament (for easier filament loading)
I messaged them about the motor possibly getting too hot (I think it's the 20mm thick motor vs the orbiter v1 which generally used the 17mm thick one, but it could also come with the 20mm one depending on who you bought it from). But they said one of the reasons they left the metal casing open on the 40mm fan side, was to allow for airflow to hit it and help keep the temps cool. Seems somewhat like a gimmick, but maybe I'm wrong Lol. They do claim that they run their motor at 1.2A.... I'm not sure, I think that's a lot, even with some airflow. But I think 1A would be doable and still be keeps within reasonable temps.
It also uses a standard v6 thread so you can get it with volcano or upgrade to something more powerful (not sure what, but I'm sure there are other options), but that would only be if the motor could keep up.
I did have a question about the max flow rate. Would it increase if you tried a larger nozzle(like 0.6mm)? Or would it be too much work on the motor?
And same question, but the other way, would it flow rate increase if you used a **smaller** nozzle(like 0.25mm) , Because the motor would turn less and thus could push more? Or would the increased pressure of the smaller nozzle be too much the flow rate would not change?
I understand that there's more than just number of rotations per minute and torque that goes Into it. Just got me curious. Perhaps you have some insight?
@@DesignPrototypeTest I was just think about the possibility of a better heater block. And I remember seeing something on Amazon. It's called the "Maxiwatt heater cartridge". It's a round heater block with Integrated thermistor and heater core. The 30w and 40w ones are ~$19 and the 50W one is ~$36 (they have both 12v and 24v). It's claim to fame is that the heating element fully surrounds the block (instead of just on one single side). For the 40w one I saw a review on there of someone using 2 stacked together, calling it "A superior volcano" Idk might be a gimmick, or it might actually be good. It seems like an interesting idea nonetheless. And you seem like the perfect one to take a look at it, and either tear it apart or praise it. Lol the most interesting part to me is that they thermistor is integrated, so temps should be very stable (after a pid tune or 2). But I'm used to using the glass bead thermistors which are hit or miss on stability, unless I put a blob of thermal paste in the hole. I tend to use cheaper hot ends with upgraded throats/heatbreaks.
like I said about that nf sunrise, at the very least worth taking a look at, wether or not you buy it. :)
Edit: After messaging an Australian RUclipsr (only review in English I've seen on the Maxiwatt on RUclips), his dies after a month. So quality may be a little iffy. Amazon reviews seem positive (but we all know how reliable amazon reviews are... Lol)
The Sherpa is less than half the price.
@@petercallison5765 well you need a bmg (30 for clone or ~80 for Original) and the motor for 20-25 + print the parts yourself. Or about 40-45 for the assembled version on AliExpress vs 45-50 for the orbiter non AliExpress. Not sure where you see a 50% price difference.
it's nice to see that your supporting a company that's practically patent trolling (slice) which is actually STOPPING the evolution of 3d printing (dragon) which was cheaper, and better than the mosquito.
It is not recommended to use higher motor current than 0.35A for this LDO motor too avoid overheating.
true dat. also the GENUINE version of this motor (perhaps not the chinese clone one he got) is the LDO 1004AHG. And that is specifically been designed for operating intentionally to be hotter. It's actual engineering at work. By designing this motor to run mugh hotter, you save the weight that way. so the outside t-case SHOULD in fact (for this motor not other steppers) be something like 70-75c. If all is working correctly. With the core coil temp being significantly higher than that inside the hottest part of the motor internally. Which leads you to then entirely question the validity of his testing here, because not only was there no sticker on the back of the motor, meaning it might not be genuinely the right part. But also his reported temps was only 50c. Which is in fact a lot lower then it is supposed to be. So maybe it was being under driven? Who knows. Very difficult to then make any reasonable assessment / comparison to the other BIQU one. In terms of the maximum extrusion rate etc. HE can say HIS article in front of HIM performs that way. For his own immediate usages and purposes. But it does not inform or help anybody else out there, who wants to get the proper versions of these components. And do it RIGHT. Instead of dicking around half assed with questionable stuff.
I did not realize that there is multiple versions of this motor so that is good to know. It does make it difficult to evaluate what exactly has been tested and what performance you can expect it you order one from AliExpress, Banggood or similar. The item description is not typically all that good.
@@christianmarkussen6412 there is an LDO company rep for USA region. his name is Jason, and he provides genuine LDO motors to a variety of genuine 'boutique' small timer 3dp stores, which are their own indepentent USA businesses. for example PrintedSolid is one of them, and a few other places like that. There are also certain specific sellers on Aliexpress which will sell the genuine ldo motor. But not just any random ones. It is something that you really need to ask about on the various 3d printing community discord servers. In fact LDO motors itself has its own discord server too
@@dreamcat4 thanks for the info, good to know.
I remember you messing with desktop milling machines. Why not convert a Proxxon mf70 or use an Ghost guner 3. I know that the GG seems edgy but it looks like a cool desktop milling machine.
I can send you a picture of the gears i melted in the LGX. Overheating extruders is a thing that can happen to all extruders depending on how you use it. Also, dude, if your extruder is 150 deg c, you're not pushing filament, you're chewing through it. The "all metal" really isn't a magic cure to heat creep and high temp printing in enclosures.
I've been trying really hard to find a lightweight hotend and extruder setup that I can afford for faster printing, but also to print nylon and higher temperatures. There are many options, but they all seem so complicated in what's compatible and what's not, which parts/upgrades are required and which one's are not... which one's will work on my printer (stock ender 3) and which one's won't. I've spend a pretty good amount of time reading up on it too. Probably more than most people would, because I can't afford to waste any more money. Bought a Sprite extruder hotend setup thinking it was all I needed only to find out that I ordered the wrong thing and only got the extruder. Now I don't know if it would be better to get the parts to finish building a sprite extruder or if I should just start over (because even to finish the sprite extruder seems more expensive than other options). I really just wish I could find a good, simple, already assembled setup (assembly) that I could just install and use to speed up printing and also to be able to print nylon.
why dont u use some aluminium foil etc to use half of the air (from top of the radiator that is cooler)
going trough hotend radiator to cool the engine and run it more than 1A
He's not copying Bondtech. Bondtech is manufacturing the drive gears for him, they ARE bondtech gears. I'm not sure about the timing, but it appears he was the one to design the larger sided gears which Bondtech later adopted.
I have genuine bondtech lgx extruders and the orbiter v1.5. For a "hobby grade" extruder in your opinion, its the best damn extruder I have found. The combination of planetary gears and good size smooth bearings along with the over sized gears make this one of the most consistent extruders and for the price it's a steal. Bondtech extruders are nice but I doubt they would have given the creator a reasonable offer to use any gears if they are not open source already. On top of that bondtech getting in bed with slice just gets a bit too greedy for my taste lately.
good morning, he talked in the movie about extruder weight and gosting generated by higher mass ... are you really sure ???
Has he ever weighed a bed with its Y axis to see how much mass is moving?
This obviously applies to the classic cartesian door not to the xy cores.
I have weighed the beds on several printers. The Y axis is always the heaviest axis on printers with 200mm x 200mm beds or larger. The possible exception is The Orange Czech Mk.3 printer. They seem to have done a good job engineering a lightweight Bed, but there is only so much weight you can drop before structure/stiffness starts to suffer.
How did you calculate the 315 mm/min ?
Quote from the video "And the result of running all these tests I figured out the maximum feedrate of 315mm/min" I don't know where you got the idea that I calculated that value. It's a number which was arrived at via experimentation. The calculated value I made for for the equivalent nozzle speed based on that maximum feedrate: 315mm/min. = 5.25mm/sec. Cross section area of 1.75mm filament is 2.41mm² Cross section area of single line extrusion .4mm wide and .2mm tall is .08mm² 2.41/.08=~30 5.25*30=~160mm/s nozzle speed.
I think the max current for the extruder is 500mA
Thanks for sharing your experience :-)
Stepper motor certainly wouldn’t like 150 degrees. There’s a neodymium magnet that would demagnetize.
Why would I want a lubricant with water in it for lubricating bearings? They're as far from stainless as possible. Just use some Teflon dry lube.
Planetary gear systems are prone to backlash. I wonder then how much effect this has on retract settings?
it is the opposite actually,
Who the hell prints their hotend/extruder stuff in PLA? Those people are the only ones who have to worry about a 60c stepper softening anything. Nothing on a machine should be PLA. Nothing.
After watching this series it's apparent that you have no place "reviewing" or "testing" any of this. There's wrong information, no research, and omitted information abound.
The concept of Glass Transition Temperature (GTT) tells us that plastic starts to get more "rubbery" as it enters into the temperature zone of the transition. But there is no hard and fast cutoff to get into and out of the zone of transition. When you read that Nylon has a GTT of 47 °C that doesn't mean that at 46°C it is solid. In fact, Nylon will suffer from significantly more "plastic creep" at 46°C than it would at 0°C. The material used in the SLS printing of this hotend is probably Nylon 6-6 which has a GTT of about 70 °C. I've gotten stepper motors up to 90°C in the past. So, the temperature of the motor being driven hard could easily surpass the GTT of the extruder body. It won't go fully molten but in the softer state it will deform if under any sort of tension. The cantilevered mounting of the motor gives some tension. In combination with the vibrations from printing it's a very reasonable criticism that the motor mount could deform under prolonged usage.
This detailed explanation can be verified with any mechanical engineer or by doing 10 minutes of research/reading on the internet. So my question to you is will you acknowledge that your comment was overly critical? The scientific process dictates that you must first look for evidence then you form a hypothesis based on the evidence. I think you have pre-judged me and you are now looking for evidence to support your conclusion. This is the opposite order which you should be conducting things. Your thinking goes by the name of "Confirmation Bias" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias#:~:text=Confirmation%20bias%20is%20the%20tendency,one's%20prior%20beliefs%20or%20values. I would ask you to please reconsider your pre-ordained judgement of me. Neither I nor my channel are what you think they are.
OK, here he goes again... can't you just drop the rant and get to the topic you're supposed to talk about (at least what you're representing in the video preview).
I've been watching your channel for quite some time because of the technical content, but for the life of me, I can't remember a single video where you don't take off on a rant of some sort about what somebody else did or didn't do.
This is getting old man. When you get off on a rant, you sound like a bitter ol'granny bitching about everything under the sun.
Just as a friendly advice: you're probably turning off a lot of viewers because you can't seem to be able to control yourself bitching about somebody else instead of focusing on your own stuff.
You need to realize that every viewer has limited time to watch RUclips. When you just rant away, you're wasting someone else's precious time. And let me tell you that there are a lot of other choices out there.
Do yourself a favor, drop the rant, and focus, focus, focus.
As far as I'm concerned, you've pretty much exhausted the extent of my patience (and discretionary free time). I'm right there at the very edge. Maybe I'll come back, maybe I won't. But I'm sure as Hell no longer going to be a subscriber...
"Live and let live."
C'mon man. I hope you will learn from this....
If ya hate the dude then watch something else. Hes giving you free honest product reviews and taking that shit apart. An honest review is becoming a harder thing to find. People like this save me alot of money
@@richiebricker I don't hate the man, I hate the rant. Re-read my comment.
Bondtech didn't invent dual drive gears though. Ask me for proof and you shall have.
Ive learned so much from this channel in the last 6 months, so being 'Dirt Poor' You are a much needed commodity. Dont let the haters keep ya from helping the rest of us out. No one else is taking shit apart to find out the why's and how's of it all, so Thanks again.
I noticed you are running different acceleration and instant change values then is recommended.
It can actually run instant change of 300 and accel of 3600.
Wish you can get your hands on the Orbiter 2.0
Bondtech always charged a shitload and anyone would would pay $90 USD for a BMG.... Well whatever floats your benchy.
My problem with Bondtech is they are passing the price of their SLS based printers onto the consumer instead of just having the case injection molded which is not only much cheaper but better.
Max temp for a stepper is 80 because of the permanent magnets but at 70 it's burning your hand but will be fine
The original stepper from LDO is high temperature rated, up to 180 deg C. It has high temp magnets not regular.
Amazing
Bought one of these about 8 months ago it worked great for 8 days of printing 24 hours a day then the motor quit working ordered new motor but it seems the gear train is warnout looks nice but I cannot trust it.
Look at this then ruclips.net/video/ZA6nHie0O08/видео.html
In what freaking world has clones made 3d printing worse? If there hadn't been any clones, 3d printing would be out of reach of the vast majority of the people who currently use them...
That's the worst take I've heard in a good while...
When was the last great innovation in 3D printing? Opportunity brings innovators. Cloning solidifies the current technology. It makes it readily available but it stops innovation. When nobody can sell a printer that costs more than $300. There's no room for expensive but innovative printers in the marketplace. You clearly don't care about innovation. All you care about is inexpensive products.
@@DesignPrototypeTest It's never been like that though. There seems to be no problem at all selling printers for more money, even now that clones are everywhere...
Yes, selling a 1000 dollar printer is always going to be harder, but the people who buy clones were never going to buy them to begin with so they're not even really competing for anything...
If 100 people buy a genuine part and another 1000 buy clones, I'd argue that's way better for everyone involved than 100 people buying genuine, and the other 1000 people buying nothing and finding another hobby.
Clones have increased the size of the community tenfold, so I'd argue their existence is doing way more to help these companies than hurting them...
Does this guy not look into 3d printing advancements before he makes a video? Lol look at the Sherpa mini.
I'm doing some upgrades to my printer and the shipping and exchange made a mosquito with bondtech extruder and a cht nozzle come to almost 700 Canadian haha I ordered a microswiss for my ender and an e3d hotend to go with a genuine titan I already have and I came out at 300. A mosquito would've been overkill anyway but the cht nozzle grinds my gears because I really wanted it. Our weak Canadian dollar sucks haha
Nice collecton of handheld You have there on the rack in the background.
I've been waiting for this video. :)
as long as he is buying from bondtech i don't think hes doing anything wrong. the press fitting and other hardware is the same case.
Bondtech does all the design, documentation, etc... These companies rip off their months of work in a few weeks and charge much less.. The community then complains that Bondtech, Slice Engineering, E3D, etc are overpriced!
Better you do your research before speaking. The motor is specially designed to be effective up to 180C.
Just How much lighter IS that Stepper ? Then there is the planetary gear setup . A problem of When... Not if.
Metal precision 1st world Planetarys have wear concerns.
Imagine those of low grade 'off shore' production.. Not a good prognosis.
Not a hope I would buy one of those.... Brochure Babbles and Shills .. notwithstanding.
Instantly hi5, thx for your time:)
yikes got recommended this channel again, sorry but your views are absurd, seems you think everyone copied everyone, then pick and choose who its okay to copy and who cant copy. pure hypocrisy at best. and how naive do you have to be to believe that without competition bondtech would offer their stuff cheaper? in what world does that work, that's literally a monopoly and normally that is not a good thing.
Hey Man, welcome back to the channel. It's true that economic theory says the competition should make genuine Bondtech products come down in price. However, I'm not seeing that happen. Bondtech has stayed the same price. So, I partially agree with you and I said as much in the response video here:ruclips.net/video/WXuROHPXH38/видео.html I disagree with you adamantly that copying is ok. It would be acceptable if the original creator was acknowledged and fairly compensated for his contribution. The situation with China today makes this not the case. They just copy the innovation and the person who came up with it get's burned for having put in all the good work. I talked about it here: ruclips.net/video/WXuROHPXH38/видео.html I want to believe that you are who you represent yourself to be. Just a viewer who has previously seen my content and is seeing it again with an already formed opinion of me. But I don't know you or who you are. Your account tells me nothing and I am constantly harassed by anonymous Trolls, Sock Puppets, and know-it-alls who want to feel superior/smarter than me. Tell me why I shouldn't put you in the same category as these guys? Are you here to honestly hash out the issue and arrive at an answer that is best for the future of 3D printing or do you have an ulterior motivation?
@@DesignPrototypeTest well, the issue I see is you jumping on the idea of "this is a clone, clone is bad" mentality . you got to remember the entire 3d printing industry is copying each other to some extent, you can look at the slice engineering mosquito, the bimetalic heat break, I can see mentions of it from back in 2012 from E3D, the use of the rods to do 1 handed nozzle removal, CR-10 hot end was at least using it well before slice was even a thing. you could do this for pretty much everything that is on the market, there are very few that are actually new innovations because simply there's not many ways to skin a pig, thats why theres so few functional/engineering patents but many design patents. however this kind of behaviour is perfectly fine, they have added their own spin and ideas to the mix the orbiter is one of these too.
the other category, the one I think we can both agree is bad for this community is the straight up knock offs, where someone has got a product from another company and made the exact same thing, the spider hotend would be an example of this.
I do also believe there is more for these companies to do to try and stay competitive, a big issue I do see is they keep their manufacturing in the EU or USA, which is quite frankly cost prohibitive especially for low volume, the price shows this is going the same direction at EU and US solar went a few years back, they are banking on the "made in US/EU" sticker will make people pay the premium. and there's no real stepping stone, no budget option just the absolute best which really is a barrier to entry for some when some of their parts are the price of a whole printer. doesn't make it ok for knock offs to exist but at the same time, they are being uncompetitive and taking it laying down.
but the main problem I have with the two videos I've seen is, the content is full and rich with info, and the YT algo is trying to push your content, however it is simply spoiled due to the lack of objectivity on the matter, you can simply state the facts of why you should support creators, such as their customer support, their high quality, etc you don't have to force it, you shouldn't need to tell people what to think, they should come to that conclusion themselves. end of the day I think most people came here to see a review on the orbiter extruder but the video deviates from giving an impression of the extruder to a lecture on why you believe its a clone of a BMG extruder
Your prior art you cited is without references. I cannot verify your words. Furthermore, The process for getting a patent is exhaustive and the search for prior art is a major part of that process. Slice has a patent on the Mosquito hotend. therefore, I'm going to trust the Intellectual Property experts here and make the safe bet that the prior art you cited is irrelevant. The patent process even has a special wording for the critique you are attempting to form: Obviousness. The concept is easily researched, and almost every patent submitted is initially "denied" for obviousness, and the patentor must appeal before being granted the utility patent. Of course everything is obvious in hindsight. You can't look back on an invention and ask if it was inevitable. Your perception and gut feeling of "Well duh, of course that's the best way to do it." is clouded by your future knowledge.
Regarding your last paragraph: I'm not a robot. I don't play with 3D printers in a sterile vacuum of technical issues. How boring would that be to watch? The human issues and the broader context are relevant to my critiques of the tech. I'm sorry you have a problem with it. But you said it. You have a problem. It's not my problem, it's yours. I don't care if you watch my videos or not. I'm not going to deny the wider discussion like the proverbial ostrich head in the sand.
@@DesignPrototypeTest ofc the whole patent thing would be up to courts to decide, especially if they have patents on something that could be considered to prior art. slice have made improvements to the prior art so it makes it tricky, as NAL. but I believe however they do only have art/design patents which is why the phatetus dragon to my knowledge has never been removed, while the spider hotend has.
"Slice has a patent on the Mosquito hotend. therefore, I'm going to trust the Intellectual Property experts here and make the safe bet that the prior art you cited is irrelevant. "
now I want to bring you back to one of your older videos ruclips.net/video/Hf2lRzJQpu8/видео.html
didn't prusa have a patent on something here you claimed to have done prior to them? I'm trying to understand what you believe here? that sometimes a patent can be issued when there is infact prior art or that it cant.
I'm not asking you to be a robot, I'm asking that you ain't like American news where the viewer isnt allowed to form their own opinion and its just someone telling them what to think. if that's who you are and that's what you want from your channel go for it but as a viewer, it makes it hard to watch man, and yes that's my own problem but it seems like a lot of these people you call trolls and shills etc have the same problem and I think they are also people that are just fed up of this style of content. whether that is something you want to change is up to you but I don't think my opinion is a minority here. or even if you think something is a clone and is bad for this industry why even review it, why give it the time of day? promote those that you believe add value to this community and spread their name. because even negative publicity is publicity
Stealth chop turned off seems to lower the temperature as well.
You should use the v1.5 there's a lot of design improvements
Great vid!!
Great insights. Thanks.
hmm... can someone review the UPCOMING Mellow NF Sunrise.....
If they make that motor in a dual shaft you could have a knob attached to the opposite side to manually turn it, if it was truly desired. I did that for one printer a while back once and it worked ok.
Was thinking of buying a orbiter extruder to try but not sure what printer I'd actually use it on right now. Too many projects, not enough time. :)
They copy, pasted and released it then he got his, it's not what you think.
I would change the title of this video to mention that this the V1 not 1..5
Stop with the constant soap box speeches about copying. No one cares about your trust in anything when it’s so much cheaper than the original.
look at mellow nf-sunrise exturder at aliexpress
full exruder with motor and hotend less then 200 g
I dont really get the "it's only cool because of this". Who cares if it's cool? Why does it being "cool" have a meaning for a utility like a 3D printer? This video feels like a lot of anger directed at a product, which really skews any kind of "review" it could offer.
sherpa mini extruder by Annex-Engineering
There you go.
To much Bla Bla....
Show how they Print.
Yeah really need to install and print to come to some conclusion on this extruder.
PETG has a higher volumetric flow rate than pla
The official 1.5 is a cool product. But i don't like it at all . flexables still jam up. And that would be fine if it was diy kit but is being sold as a finished product. And its not finished. I would argue that v1.5 its worse then .v1 .1.5 is built stronger but jams more. But that is my own experience. Maybe my own fault but no instructions no way to know
Petg has higer melt rate than pla
Fascinating and informational, as always. The conundrum is how light can you get it and offer higher performance? There are other, perhaps better performing motor choices, but all I know about are going to be heavier. A metal housing (even in titanium) will weigh more.
Since the physics of fast 3D printing is so problematic, perhaps some other carriage/driver design is warranted. But what might that be.
I, for one, am completely disillusioned with the delta printers. At first quite taken, I soon lost interest when the issues of print accuracy and finish quality surmounted speed by fairly large margin.
I guess, my current best hope is some version of the improved corexy platform.
In the end, no design is perfect, no laws of physics can be broken and no electro-mechanical devices can be made 100% reliable, nor super durable.
Every conceivable option carries compromise.
I can say that this particular device could run much cooler with a larger diameter pancake stepper.....with a weight penalty.
Finally, I can’t get too worked up about the propriety of the gear train. It’s not really protectable.
Otherwise, we’d have to search back to the first planetary gear head, and pay that designer, team or company for their first invention....if we were going to be absolutely honorable about these matters.
While I respect your position, I must say that it isn’t, in practice, very strong.
And I do agree, there are far too many abuses and encroachments going on, just as you state.
Thanks again, keep ‘em coming!
you don't need titanium strength, make it in magnesium. it's only .588g/cm3 denser then nylon.
@@SignalJones magnesium does burn nicely... :/
I hate to tell you this but there's no such thing as a hob gear. There's gear hobbing equipment but no hob gear I'm a my machinist and robotics engineer. I actually make gears I don't use a hob I use standard gear cutters but I can promise you there's no such thing as a hob gear
We need a specific name for the sharp toothed gear that exists for the sole purpose of pushing filament. I'm happy to drop that nomenclature of "hob gear" if a better term exists. The problem is that we have so much legacy terminology in 3D printing. J-head, Hot-end, Cold-end, All Metal, Extruder, etc. Which part is the extruder? Is it the part that melts the filament or the part that pushes the filament into the melty part? Why do we call hotends without PTFE liners "All metal?" They should be called "unlined." So, please give me a new more correct name and I will start using it.
For fast printing see: ruclips.net/video/ZyTnz5_XGGU/видео.html
Not using orbiter but it's the same motor so the motor is definitely not the limit.
That guy also uses 300°+ for everything at those speeds.
800ma... thats way more than thats rated
yeah it does not sound like the average rms current, which should be limited to 0.31-0.35a... if that was RMS firgure it would have burned out the motor
I think reprap settings are peak settings, but still its about double that i run..
My hextrudort on my hevort has a wantai 218 wich is a bit bigger and stronger, but i feed it 400 and even printin at 300mm/s on a volcano with .6 nozzle and .3 it stays cool.. as in.. 60 ish c
I think the point is that there's a line between weight savings and speed, and when if you focus on one too much, it's harder or impossible to do the other.
@@anotherperson9646 i run HevORT s hextrudort, Thats the same nema14 round motor based.. but with 5.5:1 gearing using the bmg gearset+ this round motor (i use a wantai 218)
Just lookup vez3d or mirage C.. they do 500+mm/s on nova hotend+ these nema14 pancakes.. this extruder is not whats holding him back
@Aron Janssen I don't know too much of 3d printers so your likely right. But as an "outside observer", that was my conclusion to the video. It could be due to the gearing, because you said yours have a 5.5 instead of 7.5, but then the speed is supposedly about 200mm/s for a .4 nozzle, and you're using a .6 one in a higher speed, which could be due to less resistance, idk. The likely answer is the quality of the components. Idk what your using or if the quality is about the same, so the following statement may be bs, but the motor he used came with the extruder, which may or may not have good quality, idk. Also, since torque has to do with current, speed should be for voltage, so maybe he should've over volt than over current, although I am probably talking sh*t out of my mouth. Basically, idk what I just said, nor could I back it, and it was likely sh*t. It's just a thought
Preaches “get it from a reputable western supplier” but is using a clone himself. Riighhty
I did not realize that when I bought it. At that time they were sold out everywhere "reputable" and the listing I bought it from looked like an official supplier just from China.
The creator of the item in question is a round handle you open doors with....
Nice a metall gears together with plastic gears. This will not hold long time.
Western supplies - hillarious. What do "think" all that stuff (some bitten fruit products for ex) comes from. "Made in America" or what attitude you are comming from.
And then still you also only showing the "extruder" and some specifications. (Why is it not called feeder? Because technically correct is the nozzel and heating block the extruder, if not also including the feeder.)
Rerant end.
For someone who advocates intellectual property so much, he really loves his clones. Wtf is that?
Funny how much crap I get from people defending Open Source projects telling me I should have bought the genuine thing. On these low sales volume products where the genuine article is also made in China I can't tell the difference and I don't bother researching the "correct" purchasing pathway. Not to mention that the genuine version is frequently out of stock when I get called out and go back to see the price difference.
just seeing this video, there already another design knockoff of this! lol Superfly Extruder - A Compact BMG Conversion
thing is sherpa mini is probably overall better option than superfly, i remember looking at superfly last week. that thing just isnt tested nearly as much. plus its like... why reinvent something the annex ppl already did right. its not better so what a waste to repeat and end up heavier than?
I'm looking at various bits and bobs, trying to make a sub 150g full hot end assembly from off the shelf parts with bondtech style gears. In this case, looted from a bondtech extruder.
Currently I'm looking at a slice engineering heat break, I need to design a clamping system and a cooling system, but so far it's looking reasonably promising. I'm currently using a 40:1 worm gear, nema 8 stepper, and a 52 15 fan for cooling the heat sink and stepper motor. I'm not sure if it's actually going to work, because I currently only have a model. Genuine slice engineering mosquito heat brakes are not cheap, but if it all works it should be a pretty freaking light extruder setup capable of shoving out 20 to 30mm3/s.
If I end up managing to get it recognized enough to get a commercial manufacturer interested, it's my intention to try to get it done in magnesium instead of nylon. Magnesium is only about half a gram per cubic millimeter heavier than nylon, and you can really drive that stepper motor to a very high heat using a magnesium frame
@@SignalJones so you want to do it in magnesium eh? that is not immediately considered because it reacts and corrodes, and/or can catch fire in HT applications. however maybe you can find any coat a decent alu/mg alloy that does not suffer from those drawbacks? regardless it will still need special machining however. and that is not usually 'all that cheap' at least going by examples of other magnesium alloy products. but you know... aluminium aint that bad either man! and you can machine aly at home on a cnc router that costs under $2000
Great video and thanks for the TinkSeal plug! Mixing metal with plastic is not a great idea without some form of lubrication. Usually the plastic has internal lubricants, but not in this design. Nylon is a great bearing material and has high abrasion resistance, but I don't foresee the two lasting very long without lubrication. I wish the bearings came with removable seals, repacking them with TinkSeal would greatly increase their lifespan as well.
the thing i dont see on the ebay listing is any indication for the maximum long term operating temperature. which is important to know, for those of us wanting to lubricate out mechanical parts inside of heated chambers. would be nice to know for that purpose
@@dreamcat4 Drop point is 177℃. TinkSeal was designed to dry over time, leaving its nano particles behind. These melt at varying temperatures as high as 1650℃.
I wore out the bearings on z-axis steppers and when I took them apart, I found carbon fiber dust grinding in the bearings. I replaced the bearings with higher grade ones with rubber seals. I repacked the bearings with TinkSeal and put the steppers back together. They have since worked great and didn't need replacing. I used a steel dental pick to remove the seals, this was pretty simple. I also use Tinkseal on my linear rails instead of oil. They glide nicer and will not need to be serviced for a very long time.
That is not a thermistor but a thermocouple.
Right! It's a K-type thermocouple attached to the meter. Thanks for the correction.