Is EDHRec Ruining The Commander Format?
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- Опубликовано: 24 авг 2024
- The EDHRec discussion has been ongoing for many years and how it has drastically changed the format from an accessibility and deck building perspective, lets talk about it!
#mtg #magicthegathering #cedh #edh #reaction
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I mainly use EDHREC very late into the deckbuilding process to make sure I haven't missed anything obvious.
This will probably be my approach honestly not that I know it exists. It can save me a lot of time once I’ve got far into the build.
Same here, I prefer to go through my cards first, then look for cards on scryfall, then look at EDHRec.
I use EDHREC as a start and an end. Now after i learned of scryfalls tagger system its i have been using it like you have been.
Nile's hot take is blissfully oblivious to the fact the EDHREC is very much aware of the issue addressed. The understand that just providing the average deck list isn't always helpful. Thus they have gone out of their way to provide more tools, more filters, and other options to the site to help builders and brewers. And they are constantly trying to make these features known to users as best they can. Credit to the team over there, Particularly Joey, with weekly videos that highlight the best practices on how to use the EDHREC website to help you brew decks.
Something you missed is that Edhrec suffers from the same problem as AI learning from itself. People will net deck from that site, post their “new” list to goldfish or moxfield then that gets picked up by Edhrec. The circle repeats. So if someone along that chain puts in a card that doesn’t work with the deck then it just gets thrown into that cycle
I always use rec as a starting point, make calls on what I do/dont want to run, and come out with a deck thats a bit more optimised than I would had I gone on blind.
The big thing is the value of gaining knowledge, or reminding yourself about interactions from sites like EDHrec, Commander Spellbook, etc. AND using that knowledge to brew, OR, build an atypical deck. I think it boils down to figuring out what player you are and utilizing these tools as best to your skills/card comprehension.
These sites can help you improve your deck building skills and better understand how to understand card synergies (even if they are potentially not apart of the deck you are trying to make).
Edhrec is not the problem. The problem is with the lack of creativity in the average mtg player. When building a deck you can easily use it to suggest things but go out and look for your own stuff. It’ll make a deck that you’ll like better because you made it yourself
Nah they just pushed 3cmc legends and obscene cards that in 2012 we nowhere to be seen. That s the real problem
@@DiabloTommaso I don't think you have to go back to 2012, I started playing Magic in 2021 and by 2024 I consider commander ruined, just the cards that have come out in that time. 2021 commander had a lot of interesting and different approaches, e.g. belbe, skullbriar, which were somewhat viable and needed love. They never got much love and are now irrelevant
@@DaveHcontrarian every deck can still be viable. the problem is that you have cards like dockside a lot of freespells, a lot of efficient mana rocks... optimizing decks is easier and a lot of cards are now staples. the fotmat got insanly faster. at least this is where the problem is in my opinion.
@@DiabloTommaso I don't think you understood the direction of what I was saying, and that is that in a Belbe or Skullbriar type of deck, that kind of deck is going to have its own staples. Whereas many commanders are powerhouses in their own right, and that is what you are saying is coming in, because there are very powerful staples like the mana rocks and S tier interaction cards which can be inserted into the "pay to win" decks. When you also factor in that its a bunch of nerds playing and at least one guy is going to play a pay to win deck, for all the hassle involved in driving across town etc, it becomes questionable if its worth playing. There is not really any support from the game developer and the dev is in fact profiting from the situation.
@@DaveHcontrarian i got you. yeah the format for me is worth playing because i have a friend group that thinks like me. so it s a good balanced "metagame". but I feel you
As someone just stepping in to Cedh decklists are great to see combo lines and step into that area until you can understand the format enough to start making your own playstyle that can also compete
Popularity ruined the format, not EDHREC. It brought everyone wanting to play competitively from 60 card formats into a casual environment, and most of those people seem to have no clue about the difference in EDH and cEDH. Don’t even get me started about the ridiculous power level system that people try to use.
The popularity wouldn't be bad if they would go back and errata cards, ban more cards, etc and cultivate the game. But its all about money and they will wait until the game is less popular before they go back to fix the game. While I wouldn't quit the game over this, I definitely have put energy limits in place as far as how far I'm willing to go to get to a table.
It does compound on the misunderstandings of the player base as a whole. They have over 200 Obeka, Brute Chronologist theft lists in their data and they recommend a bunch of Act of Treason effects that straight up don’t work with Obeka.
Myriad Landscape in a Colorless Deck
Which ones dont work? If its your turn ending the turn while the trigger is on the stack while Obeka, Brute Chronologist is out does indeed work.
@@OverlyCriticalAnime almost every card doesnt work in it.
@OverlyCriticalAnime a lot of steal effects dont work with obeka because they say "until end of turn" and those effects don't actually use the stack, they just go away when the turn ends.
But stuff like "At the beginning of the next end step, X happens" like Last Chance effects can be used with Obeka.
@@OverlyCriticalAnime not with out an “at the beginning of the end step” trigger it won’t sundial and other turn Enders will bring until end of turn effects to an end and give back creatures taken with regular threaten effects but say using a slave of bolas that requires you sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step that is a trigger a sundial can exile and stop from resolving
Understanding how every tool at your disposal works and is supposed to help you is important.
Understanding that they are just that, a single tool at your disposal, and are not meant to be the single thing you use to get the job done is also important.
i don't know, ThatMillGuy might be on to something. We should ban hammers.
How dare new players get access to the same amount of card knowledge that I have as a veteran player, or who just want to play instead of brew
I think it may offer illusory knowledge or false insight. Its not about keeping new players ignorant of the card pool, its about players actually knowing why cards are selected for different commanders in different contexts. It may give players heuristics but without additional understanding it may hold them back.
@@FAILG0AT its not false info. Its info that they dont understand. Its still helpful to see SOME cards that works with the commander. Not everyone want to spend 3h to brew decks by looking at 30k+ cards
@@vittoriosavian9964 there are suggestions in edhrec that offer cards that dont work with given commanders and yet are suggested as top cards. Edhrec can feed you nonbos, or it can feed you cards with conflicting play patterns. Every card put into a commander deck cannot be thought of in isolation. Having a resource that scrapes decklists that use shared commanders but distinct strategies and aggregates the common cards found between strategies leaves out so many key components to any given strategy. You can save time by looking at edh rec but you will leave your deck full of holes without hours of careful deliberation and or looking at finished decklists / using scryfall or other brewing tactics.
The irony of "New" brew decks is how heavily they rely on meta cards. Vampires core is still the same as Midrange.
cEDH has little to no brewing. It has one of the most homogenous deck sets out of any format!
EDHrec is a fine resource, so long as you treat it as information and the not the holy gospel on how that general should be built.
Commander ruined every other format and competitive play.
Knowledge is never a bad thing. Sites like EDHrec or CEDH Decklist Database can serve as a good way to be inspired to make other decks. It's all dependent on the builder to make the deck as fun, original and strong as they want it to
Edhrec is the most useful deck building tool I’ve ever seen because of the ability to see which cards have synergies with the commander I want to build. Even if I’m not going to use them.
My problem with EDHRec isnt that people have access to this kind of resource, its that it leads to model collapse when you start feeding decks made with purely EDHRec back into the data pool. You can see this with open ended commanders like Marchesa, Dealer of Death where its not obvious how you should build her so her top cards are just the top cards in the colors.
2 things
1) when i would talk with friends who were great deck builders for recommendations, and id consistently get the same recs from them, that I'd get from EDHrec. Most people dont know all the cards, and the ones that do, recommend the same things EDHrec does.
2) if you follow the formula for a consistent commander deck, you get a lot of the same cards. The most efficient removal and ramp is pretty objective. Most of my decks have the same blueprint for 70% of the deck, where the 30% gets to show what the deck does.
My issue is with podcasts like The Command Zone that at least used to give way too much hard data for improving decks, play patterns, etc. to a mostly casual crowd who then took the advice and transformed lists that were once power level 4-5 to power level 7-8. Theres nothing wrong with having that data out there, but frankly a lot of people LOVE to be told what to think. So they treat this information as the only way to play, even if they enjoy another way to play.
Breakout cards are far more likely in a rotating format. Eternal formats like commander are examined and re-examined so many times that finding something new is nearly impossible (unless it actually is new)
I use Edhrec as a starting point. I then research on search filters and those shorts and build my own list. I often after a proxy run buy the budget option. Do house upgrades with my collection then shop around
It's less the site being at fault here and more the users of EDHREC. It's easy to utilize the site as a tool to help brew a deck but I'd argue the majority of users hop on and copy pasta the deck with the commander they just learned about.
We can look at this phenomenon of brewing/lack-there-of in multiple ways. One of which, I feel, a lot of brews have been *spoiled* by streamers and others who take to social media stating "OMG look at this crazy deck I faced off against last weekend. Here's the full decklist in my description". Resulting in the brew going online, being dissected and then never again seeing the light of day as everyone knows to sideboard in "that one card" they need for that new deck tech floating around online that month.
Another way to look at it is simply the evolution of the game. Cards get figured out and no longer are efficient. I'd argue this ties into my previous statement about how deck techs are leaked so much quicker nowadays. This wouldn't be such a problem if techs didn't get uploaded instantly. I mean shit, I've seen screenshots of a table DURING A MATCH with the caption "Look at this!! WTF did I just play against?" Then BAM, everyone in the comments does there thing and the deck is figured out in minutes.
Then there's the issue of attention spans, social engineering (blah blah blah). People don't want to spend time making their decks anymore and just want to get on that sweet MTG. Convenience is the name of the game nowadays....In everything *smh
I can kinda see both sides, but like if edhrec didn't exist, we would have another website just like it. I think it's amazing we have a website like this, and why I like more customized decks, good cards are still good cards, and you gotta find out what's good for a deck somehow
What are you talking about? You're going to use competitive constructed decks as examples of brews? Those are the most homogenized decks. They're not creative, they're not made with extreme netdecking practices. Commentaters online are at fault for constantly pushing generically good staple cards for every deck.
he literally talks about two decks immediately afterwards. Rakdos Vampires and a black saddle based deck that literally dark horses opponents
If someone uses a hammer as a hair brush, are hammers the problem?
I don’t think there’s any inherent issues with edhrec and moxfield, there is an issue with a player base unable to use those websites as anything else than a resource, it’s good to find interesting synergies specific to certain commanders, it shouldn’t be used to brew your deck, you should use it to find possible cards to add to an existing deck idea, not necessarily to build your deck
It should be noted that EDHRec is a deck aggrigator, and can't list all card synergy possibilities, just the top X% of instances those cards show up in deck criteria. So you aren't getting the reason those cards are there, and might miss out on great synergies if you don't do your own research
EDHRec (deck aggrigator) is fine. Archidekt and Moxfield (deck list/collection list sites) are fine. Both aite categories are tools and have their uses.
The question that needs to be asked is a person question; what am I intending to build my deck atound, and where is this to be played? Is it cEDH, high-power, jank for the sake of jank? I have built expensive decks with higher power (and still building as I budget for them), and I've built low power budget decks for more casual play from my own collection and from browsing various sites (while keeping my budget in mind).
I'm about EDHREC. It's phenomenal for figuring out the most synergistic cards to start an engine with your commander.
But EDHREC doesn't build the deck for you. If all you use are the most popular cards for the commander, you're probably missing out on a lot of card draw, a lot of the best late game ramp & a lot of removal.
EDHREC also sucks for determining the best wincon outside of combo wins.
EDHREC is a fine tool. The information it provides is useful, and quite nice to have access too. EDHREC is not knowledge though, it is just information, and of limited scope at that. EDHREC does not tell you what the most useful cards are for your strategy, nor the most powerful, nor the most fun. All it will ever tell you is what is the most used cards. Any overlap between any of the above criteria, and the most common is simply coincidental. Forgetting this at any point in utilizing EDHREC will lead you to mistakes in deck building.
I think that is more the issue with it.
Kinda weird going on EDHrec and seeing a pool of like 500 cards in every deck. I get it Mox Opal is really good, but I'm playing mono green with 2 artifacts in my deck. People should brew!
"Netdecking" is just spending your money wisely.
Brews aren't free, and why throw money away on something that may or may not do what you intend for it to do?
Edhrec is a very useful tool as someone who just came back after 10 years. I could never hope to learn or remember every card that has come out. However i dont just copy decks off edhrec. I like to put my own flair or throw some of my favorites in the deck even if they arent "meta" or the most... Optimal pick. Its a super useful tool as a commander player where i need about 63-65 unique cards that hopefully have some synergy with the idea i have for the deck.
I usually make a list around a commander and skim EDHRec afterwards to see if I missed any especially synergistic cards. However, people using EDHRec to build their whole deck doesn’t strike me as a problem as long as they know how to filter out inclusions from cEDH lists (thinking of Yuriko, Kenrith, etc). Some people don’t have unlimited time to brew and just want to plug and play a commander game with their friends. Yuriko and Teysa Karlov are popular not only because they are powerful, but are legitimately fun, even if a lot of their lists look similar.
Generally, I'll look through my collection and gather up a legend and some decent, on-theme cards. If I can come up with about half to two-thirds of a deck, I'm glad that something like EDHRec exists to get me over the hump.
But also, I don't mind if you go on there and just copy/paste a deck. I'm here to play the games. In a multiplayer format, streamlining your deck will only get you so far. If I land a Thorn Elemental, is it the best green fatty at 7 MV? No, but it still requires interaction.
Dude, my whole play group builds decks off it. These decks can be SUPER brutal but at the same time you can wind up buying cards that are combo pieces but not the whole thing since it doesnt tell you. These leads to a TON of dead cards and bad feelings....
The issue I feel is that showing what people are running doesn’t always help. Maybe there are forms of interaction, control, and recovery that work with a specific commander but might not get shown because EDH players are infamous in their lack of playing interaction. Which just serves to make it so future people are less likely to use those removal pieces in their decks.
My brewing usually starts with getting the commander then looking through my rares etc for cool syngery then cutting around 30 cards cause I love the jank.
Sometimes I'll head to Edrec for some excellent syngery piece. I forgot about parallel lives for example. Popped that into chatterfang but I would have been fine without it as well.
I use edhrec to find concepts I'm not familiar with, but it'll be a cold day in (Arizona) before I follow a build entirely. I don't want some cookie cutter concept to roll out. That's why we have precons.
I build all my decks in paper and will mabye look up cards after its built for future upgrades. And then based on price of singles and how much i like the deck i may pickup cards. Edhrec is a data base i don't think it necessarily equates to the netdecking issue which has always been a problem before these sites even existed but it was more of an issue for 60 card formats.
I like your hitbox, keyboard, stick hybrid! What games do you play with that?
Right now I'm slowly getting back into SF6 and Guilty Gear after being off them while, but post move I'm back in!
@@ThatMillGuyShaf That's awesome! I've been loving those as well! Good taste!
I’m a brewer I’ve never copy pasted a list but I’ll use edhrec for the purpose of finding out potential for a commander with some obvious picks some not so obvious picks what’s good on a budget or staples make easy fits but when I dig I always find cards nowhere on the decks page or because I’m brewing a secret commander or around a win con itself all the final cuts wether they were recommended or not are mine to decide going into a sleeve. But what’s to say my lists are similar to others online I’m curious as to how close cuz I like to think my brews are unique to a degree. The other thing is tho most archetypes are pretty solved when it comes to a base shell and there’s not a lot of room for personal flavors when playing certain strategies in general so in those contexts your gonna see a lot of similar lists regardless of net decking.
I like Rec just for niche things (rielle comes to mind showing me cards like fire storm and turbulent dreams) that I wouldn't normally think of, but to say it's "ruining" it is a little too much of a stretch to me.
I would like to call out something I thought of while watching. Commander is singleton, and if you want x cards with a given effect, you might just run out of cool little-known cards. That's happened to me in several brews. If you need ramp in Azorious, you might need to run sol ring, you know?
For me, who will go a year or more not looking at releases, it helps when that edh bug bites and something new catches my eye so I have a place to really see what has come that works.
Otherwise it's just data, with or without it there's always going to be players less motivated to brew and just look up what works.
Thanks for highlighting this topic.
I definitely wouldn't use edh only to build my deck.
Still use the site to check what people play, but often enough there are cards in high % usage that either dont synergise well or straight up dont work.
But obv. there are cards that are no brainers for your deck.
Scryfall helps alot with searching for cards that i might not know.
I need help making a deck and not getting lost in the sauce of various engines, but I doubt I can bribe em’.
i think a part of the problem is that the default seems to be shared public lists, rather than private. So decks that are still very much in the assembly process get treated functionally the same as a deck thats been completed, tested and tweaked.
Im building a big dumb Party Box format deck for the D&D set, its currently like 400 cards with ~200 in the sideboard and 200 in the considering. This is a weird format and not a deck, but it still somehow got over 100 views on the deck before i turned it private.
That's being treated identically to the Gonti precon upgrade im working on, having taken two different creators $20 and $50 upgrade paths, and then added like 100+ cards in the Considering section while the actual deck is sitting at 110 bc I need to cut down again and fix a bunch of removal and ramp
Both of those are being treated as the same thing as someone who's been tweaking and upgrading the same deck for years and has a huge guide written out. There honestly should be some amount of minor technical updates to deck sites so people can toggle like "still crafting" or "Never played", and imho yhe default setting for a deck should be private in the meantime.
The amount of raw garbage not real decks these tools look at means in a lot of ways the output is ultimately garbage as well.
Absolutly not. The artificial pushing of cards made for a casual format is
It’s definitely hard to take these takes seriously it’s a data website either use it or don’t but it’s just information
As a newer players where can I find cards that aren't just EDH recommendations?
Most decks I build off my own back. But saying that deck list sites are bad is nonsense.
If you're not trying to build the best deck you can what's the point in being in Magic at all.
In commander it doesn't matter so. Matches are for fun. It's a casual almost silly thing.
In a constructed 60 card format you have to play the best you can as every deck is super synergistic and hard formed for the win over everything.
I still tweek them to fit my id. But I want to not just beat my opponents I want to blow them apart.
I need a big showy hard hitting bang deck.
People need to understand you don't have to the most efficient all the time. I need edhrec cause I can't remember all these bloody cards
In commander more than any other format, people still play cards because at one time or another they were staples. For instance Putrefy. Yes it's still good but there are better options these days. But EDHrec is still going to highly recommend it. Just because so many players have putrefy, but they don't have access to high value bangers like Deadly Rollick.
This conversation comes up every year or so, and the answer is no*.
* Players in the beginning of their journey won't likely be referencing data sites. As they learn their first decks and decide to start designing their own, then they are more likely to look at these compilations of most-used cards. But frankly, this isn't the issue. Edhrec wasn't a thing when I first began playing, but I still ended up playing the more frequently used cards. And why? Because that's what my betters were playing and winning with. And that's what they were recommending. And that's how learning happens anyway. I didn't really start making obscure choices until I was a few years in, and I became curious about doing more with my decks than before. The process was, is, and in all likelihood will be just that. Edhrec is only guilty of amassing more data than any local playgroup. If you really want to blame anything for "ruining" edh, look at the products themselves, and look at the producers.
I disagree. Creative brewers are empowered to make interesting finds because of such powerful tools, and EDH players that are less enthusiastic about the brewing side of the game are using staple synergies & goodstuffs instead of whatever cards they happen to find first (which would leading to decks being random, unfocused piles).
Does EDHREC have all the problems that come with scraping data indiscriminately across the internet? Yes. Is it "damaging" Magic? No.
I get it for sure, especially seeing very similar decks being played. Although idk if it makes me hypocrite or not but my main deck actually started as a primer from tappedout. Difference is I've changed so much of it over the 5 years I can honestly say it's mine.
EDH going "mainstream" is what ruined the format. It used to be a format where you grabbed some singles out of you jank collection , but ever since it started getting support from WotC with direct product the format jumped the shark. It used to be a format of strange and discovered interactions from cards throughout the history of the game. Now the majority of decks I see have a core built out of cards specifically printed for the format, or plussed precons. Very few deck builders bothered with the format while it was unofficially supported. I have no issue with playtest cards because even some old jank from the 4 horsemen is expensive, but by allowing proxies, once I see the commander I can tell within 10 cards what is going to be in the decks because we've all seen the lists and by this point they pretty much build themselves. At this point Im thinking about just totally dumping commander and going to star and emperor, the other casual formats we used to play back in the early 00's.
If edhrec gives you objectively gives you better cards which most times it does then why not use it?
in the same way that the internet ruins MMO's like World of Warcraft, sure. But there are so many cards legal in the format to such the point you could play a commander for years and never had known about certain cards that specifically synergize with it. in my opinion, free cast counterspells are ruining MTG as a whole. Other than Deflecting Swat there are no other cards in existence for the Commander format that can compete with blue to such a point if your not playing blue you just can't play "on the same level." But sure, let's target EDHrec when they've done nothing wrong...
I think this is a weird take. Edhrec is a data website, nothing more. Are we now saying that access to knowledge is bad? This is edh, not cthulu lol
I don't think so. Buuut it does tunnel vision people I think in the way they should build it and Ive found it leads to a lack of variety in the selection it offers since every day is using the same site so they use the same cards and alot of the more niche and case use cards get lost to the ages
I disagree, under the opinion that we are playing casual (3-7) commander, there are so many unique cards that you have access to and edhrec only gives you info of the most used like 5% of those cards. You can play whatever you want, but as a modern player I feel like edhrec is just like goldfish listing decks that 5-0 challenges and you only see the “meta” but there is no meta in commander you can brew anything and have fun/ win. Also scryfall, wizards companion, and tcg player all give you the ability to look up anything you are specifically looking for
It may be hard to grasp because we are trained to see more data as a whole positive but yes sometimes there is bias or sampling problems. Given edh rec is populates its data from scraping lists i could spam decks with bad cards to poison the data.
I think its good to consider, people can walk away from a data set with the wrong insights even if everything is above board.
Say we only took the best decks and populated edh rec with a list of cards relative to a commander the fact that a commander can be played stax, turbo, aggro, jank (think Kenrith) allows for lists with cards that have conflicting play patterns.
Yes access to the knowledge is bad because everyone just looks up their commander on EDHRec and then buys all those cards for the deck making all those commander deck 90% the same. Did you think your comment through? Because that was the whole point of the video
@@entertainmentinc9735 litterally where is the evidence that people just build those decks with no tweaks, legit everyone ive met who use it just use if for a help finding core cards then look up abilities on scryfall to fill out the list.
Honestly, I probably should be using it but not only did I not know it existed I still don’t use it. I make ish from scratch but it wastes a lot of time to be honest. Some legends are just hyper obvious with regards to cards because the card wants to do one thing.
I like edh rec because i just got back into the game but i recognize its limitations.
edhRec isnt that much of a problem, but people are forced into a "gimmick" deck with a Precon already and the decks people then build usually play the same, as they also work especially well with very specific cards.
If you are not about a specific gimmick, you are more free to use the "best" cards, but then the best cards are also usually the same bunch of cards.
With a budget the number of cards gets even more fringe.
While Magic has a lot of cards, the vast majority of cards are "unplayable" bad that other cheap cards do the same just better.
Imma be honest, chief. I was listen with this in the background. I guess you sounded aight at 60 fps.
Its a tool. Just need to know how to use it.
This was a 12 minute way to say "no," so why bother?
Good god edh players are soft...
Maybe just maybe…..it’s on the edh players.
Bro every single izzet commander is the same deck
Wizards ruined the Commander format.
Def prefer 24 frames
No. No it is not.
its pronounced Aver-EI-chay
☝️ Building the deck is one thing, playing it well is another.
Bad take tbh
hot take nothing wrong to net deck
Treasures are ruining the format, not EDHRec.
There should be no judgment on deck building regardless of format. Not just EDH.
Smooth brain take
lol how is net decking any different than paying a person to make your deck?