The end of the "Self-Taught Programmer"
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- I react to the great video made by @kennygunderman on his take on how the world of tech has changed. It's a really eye opening video and a great perspective especially with how the current tech market is to get a job (FAANG companies especially).
Link to Kenny's video: • The end of the "Self-T...
Code: github.com/Mel...
Video Editor: @TheMason
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Thank god I have a CS degree, my chances of getting hired by google have increased by 1%
Hows that student debt. though?
Hey every little bit helps!
@@jordanmatthew6315 Don't have it. Education is free in Arab countries.
Melkey: "Fullstack doesn't exist. Fullstack is a scam"
Me a fullstack dev for the past 10 years: 👁👄👁
hahahaha
@@MelkeyDev Please go into more detail why you say it's a scam?
@@AlbertCloete Melkey's statement, "Fullstack doesn't exist. Fullstack is a scam," reflects a critical perspective on the concept of full-stack development. This view suggests that the idea of a single developer being proficient in all aspects of both front-end and back-end development is unrealistic and potentially misleading. Critics argue that the vast and rapidly evolving nature of web technologies makes it nearly impossible for one person to master both the intricacies of user interface design, client-side scripting, and user experience (front-end) as well as server-side logic, databases, and server infrastructure (back-end). They assert that promoting the full-stack role may oversimplify the complexity of web development and undervalue specialized skills, leading to underqualified professionals being overstretched across multiple domains, ultimately compromising the quality of the software. This perspective highlights the importance of specialization and the collaborative nature of development teams where individuals bring specific expertise to the table.
@@sakurad49 good bot
@@sadboisibit forget about it and give me cake
Definitely agree with what you are saying.
I am one of those $100k+ bootcamp graduates. I fell into DevOps and during my internship at a tech unicorn I knew I had to skill up massively so I spent 7am - 6-7pm most days in the office trying to soak up as much as I could in that environment and then working in a bar at night since I was an unpaid intern.
I will preface that prior to the bootcamp I did a whole bunch of self learning and built some tools for the job I was at currently(Managing a high end cocktail bar), these tools were for scraping and reporting as well as automated slack bots to notify me when certain stock was running low etc and also built a covid sign in portal during the pandemic. This helped me talk about actually useful projects which I think is the key when you are putting projects on your resume and github.
I respect your grind
Hell yeah!
I try not to watch videos that might damage my motivation or shift my focus (obviously, I'm somewhat of a masochist, haha). I'm 36 now. I started learning programming basics in C, followed by a course in automating tasks with Python, then HTML, CSS, and JS, creating MPAs (using PHP and JS), SPAs + JSON APIs (with Next.js, SvelteKit), and then formal studies. This entire process took me five years, with daily practice. Even with all this effort, I'm struggling to secure even an unpaid internship here in Spain. However, I constantly remind myself, 'I JUST DON'T CARE.' I maintain my focus on programming as much as I can, read a bit, and learn by doing. I'm uncertain if I'll ever land a job, but I'm convinced that the best chance of getting one is by giving it my all.
P.S.: I'm currently building a portfolio with some solid projects. Let's see how it goes.
Goodbye, and thank you!
Good luck, I feel you. Same thing with me.
keep going man
They want someone with student debt. that is used for negotiating your monthly salary at a lower level in HR; when you get a job - for them, the lower the better but sucks for you.
If self-taught, you have an edge to raise your salary if you show the work - if anyone in HR can confirm this that would be great.
I had no clue they do this
Curious what you mean by full stack is a scam? Maybe it's different because I started at a startup and had to wear a bunch of hats. But working across domains isn't unreasonable.
full stack is a scam because startups and smaller companies what someone that does the work of multiple engineers while only needing to pay one employee.
I’m still gonna do it cuz it’s fun
You said “Full stack” is a scam? Interested to know your thoughts on why is that?
Underpaid and overworked
It's very hard to concentrate on both. You can't be good at both imho with frontend being so difficult these days.
I am a full stack dev. You're basically doing two peoples job for one salary
You just do not get the time to learn anything as in-depth as someone who only has to focus on the front or back end. So in the long run you are worse off than both
I've also found that front end devs are always ready to shit on your for not knowing the latest React flavour of the month feature that will inevitably be next weeks anti-pattern
I'm not trying to be nasty but I'm tired of all this doom and gloom talk. This is not aspiring for.up and coming developers
Maybe its tiring to hear because you feel entitled to get a software job? Proper devs who build stuff other than CRUD apps are having hard times finding work because there are 10million Bootcamp Andy's clogging up application pipelines.
It's called life.. deal with it!
@macctosh Not really lmao. Nice attempt at boomer logic though. This isnt "life" because all of these trash code kiddies are getting laid off now, and we will actually come back to a time where people understand the code they write, eventually.
@@bjj-and-cppit’s not just trash code kiddies getting laid off. Talented and seasoned engineers are spending months looking for gigs after lay offs. What these guys are saying is true for the most part, and up and coming devs need to understand the reality of the market right now if they are going to seek employment.
@@hardcorecode yep its life so how about we deal with that comment about " not aspiring for up coming developer"
you can be self taught in any field so long as you're competent and intelligent. Granted there are fields that require professional licenses, certifications, etc. However I firmly believe that if most companies removed the requirement for a Bachelors degree in the USA the amount of truly innovative tech being developed here would be drastically larger. I have worked with machinists, technicians, field service engineers, and developers that are more than capable to contribute in a design engineering context. All that matters is that you have a good work ethic, are actually interested in the work, truly learn from failure, and are a good critical thinker.
what about the degree requirement? can you apply even if you don't have a degree?
@@fus3n You won't be working for these giant gatekept fortune 500 shitholes most likely. But that isn't really software development anyway
I agree except two points. Full stack jobs exists, but in smaller teams and organisations. When the product is condensed it's easier to plan work E2E. I say so as that are exactly teams I build so far. Second is that Redux is not enough. For the reasons you gave, good use of Redux can be enough. I don't expect candidates to know all the latest trends. I care how they think and resolve problems and most companies work on existing software, not the new one, so it's more likely to meet Redux or useReducer than new kids on the block.
back in my day a junior has no react skill and the requirement is just 1 year less
Lmao the "Python in X months get cash join my course" sounds a lot like Clever Programmer.
I think the other thing is web dev is the sole focus of this video. I think if you're dedicated and want to its probably much less saturated if you're applying for any position that uses C++ or C (though those listings may be more senior)
ur chance of getting a job with cpp or c without a degree is lower thant web dev .
@@musashi542 I've had multiple jobs in industry off of nothing but making my own game in UE in C++ and charisma, this guy is a loser don't listen to him OP
Bro stay getting on Pooja 😂😂. Poor girl lmfaoo
I learned HTML/javascript over 20 years ago and CSS when it came out. It's crazy that you need a degree for this; I do have one but not in this. Unfortunately, I did spend a lot of time creating Flash in the 00s, but we know where that went.
Sorry, but I think the focus is off here. You are not getting a job because choosing the right technology. You get the job by showing what you can do with the technology.
"full stack doesn't exist" then proceeds to explain the skills outlining full stack (ie can write an FE app + Restful API + authentication + continuous integration) as a junior position.
Yeah I agree, but it's junior full stack role.
To be fair, can sling this together in single Next.js app these days…
I think what he's saying is that Full Stack is kinda this BS thing where people do a splash of front end and a splash of backend and think that they are truly full stack. Full stack development is so much work, it really is. People have no idea, and these tutorials aren't covering any of it. If you haven't deployed an app to real users, there simply is no way that you are full stack
@rmdashrfv it's pretty easy to deploy something to heroku
In Brazil if you say this is a Junior position (which I completely agree it is) people will trucidate you as they will say that the company is asking way too much tech. For me, it's modern development basics.
Back to McDonalds then
You dont need a Tennis class and classes about the history of lesbian flute carving in Peru between 1200-1650ad in order to learn how a computer works.
What about Self-Taught Gophers? No one can say no to the gopher
Never had a CS degree, I do have 13 years of actual industry experience. Getting work is relatively easy.
It's a whole different experience for people with several years of experience. The bar to break into the industry is much much higher today.
Computer science has risen to be one of the most popular college majors, with tons and tons of new grads each year. Meanwhile companies are actually reducing new and junior roles and opting instead to invest in senior talent
Not now, try to find a new job, boy.
@@ncpeaksean4278 It depends on what you know; you don't need a job experience to get well at programming. You need dedication and analytic thinking and in two years you can learn a lot even as 3 hours a day hobby. And you know what? I'll pick that guy over 100 college graduates, so do companies. So, it isn't end of "self taught programmers", it is end of people getting programming jobs with no serious prior knowledge.
Basically its just proving the best way to become a dev is to favor ecological methods of learning vs information processing methods.
Folks Google is a advertising business not a software company. There are plently of other companies to work for they are only doing this to limit the headcount.
Man these influencers really ruined it
I ruined it
great video, thanks for the advice. even though people are quite pessimistic i'm actually optimistic because i'm curious and want to learn new things all the time i think i will do good
You can do it!
I'm self taught and make a sweet salary Kenny is trying to erase my existence he has to be stopped
You gotta go buddy
All I can say is good luck for those companies .
Did anyone else notice how janky the train around 3min was
Yes, specifically the part where you criticize big tech youtubers that always try to sell courses. If you actually go and look at it, they are NOT industry professionals, most of them got an internship at a big tech company for less than a year, and then just become youtubers. I am surprised there aren't more people calling them out, but these people do not have the experience to be giving out career advice.
Found this out the hard way trying to get a job for a year in the sea of layoffs. Went back to college, not really learning anything that'll help me do my job, but hey, at least it allows me to be an intern where I'm being paid ballpark the value of my work.
You were able to land an internship?
@@ArchaicCreationsbp Yeah, 2 things that probably help though. First, I worked for them as an intern in the past. Second, it's a research company and intern salaries are paid for by the government.
If the best way to get hired is networking, then that's the sign of failed recruitment process.
I will say it is kinda interesting the thought of using agile for your own solo project. Not something I would have thought of. I wonder if my Project+ cert will be enough though because Im not sure how to do a standup by myself.
Siri write a note: buy a whiteboard.
Sorry, did you just call "web dev" an engineering discipline! 😮😮😮 Oh Hell no! Maybe comp-sci but no way engineering
Full stack 100% exists and isnt a scam. what do you mean?
maybe "junior fullstack" is a bit of an oxymoron
This is literally my title and I'm paid fine :shrug: there's a difference between these FAANG companies and smaller startups or even just small buisnesses in general that just need someone who knows what they're doing, degree or not.
full stack doesn't exists, its just a word invented to sell bootcamp and magic courses to teach you programming in 6 months or less (LOL), in the past a software engineer knew every aspect about building software without auto called "full stack" just for a bootcamp MEAN or similar.
unless you're rich harris
bro just learn in public make linkedin and twitter not saying you will get refrel in one call or remote job at fang or may be you wont even get a job by doing this but just the fact you did it will chnage you entire curior trigectory when you will have experiance
dude looks like leon scott kennedy from resident evil 4 LOL
brah, how the hell full-stack is a scam, it just shows what a coach programmer you are, yikes.
Oh - okay. How about we live code head to head on my twitch channel and see who’s the real coach? In front of 200-300 ppl. A “full stack” problem, you half assed engineer using next and connecting to a DB and thinking you’re full stack
@@MelkeyDev
lol, 200-300 people, is that a flex? XD
You clearly don't understand what full stack even means, you're just a influencer without the influence, yikes.....
Nah not a flex, but just to get you out of your little environment where no one knows or gives a shit about the code you write because it has zero impact anywhere.
Lol what an idiot
@@MelkeyDevdude you are prime wanna be 😂😂
Try to stop the video before commenting, not everything is well understood.
Postgres mentioned lets go
lets goo
Good thing I got my degree before it was cool.
I've seen a lot of "full stack" dev postings wanting some knowledge of SQL. Not a bad idea to pick up some SQL. You'll never use it at a big company, but it's a "bullet point" to hit.
+1
Wait, there are devs that does not know SQL?
I'm used to be native app dev and I'm pretty sure I used to do Join and sub query pretty regularly
I worked for a large company, and I used SQL at least as much as I was writing code. Maybe more, frankly. It’s useful to know, even if not all positions will need to use it.
SQL is used everywhere. if you work at blizzard on wow or google on youtube, you'll use SQL... L take
@@muhwyndhamyoud be surprised, people will actively go out of their way to not learn SQL despite how easy it is by using like an ORM or something
Oh man you are Milkey 🥛 really my motivation. Love your roasting on RUclips.
I still don't see a good argument against redux except boilerplate. What's so special about Zustand or any other state management that Redux doesn't have?
A newer state management library like jotai is much more reactive and even atomic. Making it work better with functional components. Give it a try
1:45 😭
Full stack does exist 😂
I don't think it's the end of self-taught programmers - it's the end of "influencers" saying useless crap.
deafpolygon, am i an influencer saying useless crap?
@@MelkeyDev not all crap, you have some useful information. but, bootcamps getting you a job in 6 months won't be a thing anymore. the simple advice people put out is just crap - it's going to get harder, but the self-taught route is still going to be useful.
Can you please make a video about how you read go documentations i am begginner and go dev package is so hard and is not easy to understand 😢😢, please
Yeah i can do that
Why are full stack roles a scam?
Fire vid, all my homies liked
Thx for the video!
Damn that loud outro.
Your video quality on 1080p actually looks like it's 480p, wonder what's wrong
Registered HyperCam2 is the problem
It takes time to fully upload the HD option
Low bitrate, could be server doing it
Hold up, say JWT one more time chief
Bro chill 😭
As a hiring manager, I would not consider hiring a bootcamper or a self-taught developer. I believe they may lack a solid foundation in computer science fundamentals. Listing CSS, HTML, JavaScript, and React as your primary skillset would automatically disqualify you in my book.
Great point
As a senior developer, I won’t even look at whether a person has any diploma or not, because the first thing all the juniors tried to show me, who failed miserably at the interview and demonstrated a complete lack of even basic knowledge, was a degree in computer science.
Are you an engineer?
@@sab6261 Yup. Software engineer for15 years until I moved to management.
Interesting. I've found zero correlation between a CS degree and how effective an engineer actually is. A degree may even be a negative when they get attached to academic concepts. @@BobKane-g6x
I have 1.5 yrs of learning and 1.5 yrs of work xp as a dev, I am applying for a year now. I am learning my ass off to get a better job. This sucks
Did you go through heart surgery too, bruv?
that's a good thing, name me an other engineering field that u can enter without the profession title which require the education? It's annoying to have the market saturated by youtube learners, makes the field look ridiculous
Don't you think that you are a little behind the times? We are no longer in a time when, in order to learn to read and write, one must enroll in a monastery, and the necessary knowledge can only be found in a library, access to which can only be obtained thanks to noble origin.
@@ivmet1985 Yea but so what ? That's how every other profession work lol medicine, nurse, engineering, even from where i am construction workers need their cards. Same should go for software engineering, easy fix for saturated market and thats what recruiters are heading to, simply too much candidats. I didn't say it's the only way to learn, cause its not obviously.
@@dan-cj1rr "So what?" - this is a great argument. There is a universal answer to this - “Well, nothing.” The main quality of the 21st century is the ability to quickly adapt to a rapidly changing market, change profession accordingly, and you are appealing to the fact that there are still professions where having a piece of paper confirming graduation from a university is a bureaucratic requirement. Note the papers about graduation from an educational institution, and not about the presence of knowledge. Do you think that the IT world will become a thing of the past and accept the rules of the last century? May be. I think more that it is more likely that the old professions will be forced to accept the new rules.