If fake deaths weren't so common in the manga the reveal of Saul being alive would have been amazing with a great emotional weight. If this was the exception and not the rule for characters "dying" then imagine how nice it would have been to know Robin had a person from her past, still alive, with a possibility of a reunion in the near future.
Exactly. If Saul had been the only major fake-out-death, than this moment would've been incredibly powerful. It's literally decades later and Robins backstory is a fan-favorite for a reason. But after an avalanche of these "deaths" this moment has been cheapened, if not ruined.
thats honestly my problem . if that only happened a few times i wouldn't mind but because i read Wano an arc full of fake-out deaths, i was pissed when he was revealed to be alive at first
It makes us not trust the tension and stakes in arcs. Wano could’ve been a ridiculously better arc if Kinemon and a lot of the nine died on screen. Asura and Izo’s death were off screened and weren’t done well at all. We all know now that if someone is critically injured that someone will save them and no consequences will be had. Luffy is my favorite character in the series, but after Ace’s death you’d think he’d try to have everyone not be in such situations. I understand fighting the Yonkos was coming, but not having the strength at the time to wage war in it was so ugh. Oda doesn’t have the Strawhats understand their actions have meaningfully weight and I don’t understand why. Look at Kid, he went through the different Yonkos losing an arm, having Killer being feed a Smile Fruit and other things. Oda is capable of having Luffy’s rivals end up in the same place as him while not being as blessed. Oda could’ve definitely had Luffy experience consequences but didn’t. If Kinemon had died that would’ve hit Luffy to understand things about his actions. We all know Kaido kills, I just don’t understand why couldn’t Oda have him kill important characters that can make the story so much better. Udon Prison could’ve been another heavy tension moment to, but it was just fodder for Luffy to practice. Not even having Kidd practice when he fought Kaido didn’t make any sense to. Saul being alive would’ve hit greatly if Oda didn’t fake us out with those “deaths” in the past. Pell, the nine, Pound all of them would’ve made this moment even better to have Robin experience someone from her life alive. But that’s isn’t the case, due to all the people before him surviving and not having the Strawhats understand death consequences.
This is absolutely correct and it really hurts Oda’s writing tbh. If there is no consequences to the actions of the characters, then there can’t be any stakes. Even now, I find myself in disbelief concerning the events that happened in Lulucia Kingdom. If the endgame for the story is near, Oda needs to start hammering in on stakes and consequences
It's so simple, if you're not willing to kill a character, don't put them in situations whereby their survival would seem like extreme luck or an actual miracle. On top of that, don't milk the emotional impact of that fake death FOR YEARS, only to reverse it later. That is Soap Opera levels of writing; this is supposed to be a masterpiece
If Saul was the only example of a character seemingly unambiguously dying and then turning out to be alive later, I think I might be okay with it. But honestly, with Oda pulling this trick so many times throughout the story, I just can't help but feel similarly to you, Morj. When I first saw Pell's "death" I was taken completely aback, but now I literally laugh whenever I reread that part of the story, because I know that he survived what was effectively a nuclear explosion at point blank with just a couple scars, and there's no way that that's not hilarious to me.
I disagree with the claim that sauls death was an example of a character unambiguous dying it was assumed he was frozen by aokiji his friend surrounded by fire which would melt it
Bon Clay’s death would have been the most gut wrenching one out of all of them…..Having a character who was the silliest and not much of an important affiliate of the MC take on such a dramatic role when the MC was alone and at their most dire situation (especially in hell itself - Impel Down) would have been icing on the cake. Sure, the audience yearns for hope and a happy ending. But Bon Clay would have been immortalized similar to Whitebeard if the death had occurred
I believe Mr. 2 living was fine as Magellan as the warden wasn't supposed to kill him but to subdue him and throw him down to the lowest levels, it's not just job to kill
I actually think it's fine, his words were not a final sendoff, but more-so for the immense sacrifice that was made. As far as we know, Bon-Chan may never leave Impell Down. Bon Clay was sacrificing his opportunity to escape and closing himself off to a life of torture and punishment so Luffy could save his brother and escape. He never intended to die, he intended to allow Luffy to escape and to save Ace.
I mean Mr 2. sacrificed himself, but why would he have died though? He was very powerful he was the number 2 in Crocodiles entire organization and skilled at hand 2 hand. Also think about Magellan’s character was he murderous?
@@evelynphore7635 We saw him kill so many that was trying to leave with his poison and venom. I think it's reasonable to think that he'd show no mercy to the guy who allowed the biggest breakout in inpel down history to become a success
It's not that I'm mad about fake deaths, but that those 2 arcs were about war, leadership and sacrifice. Wano and alabasta needed those 2 deaths in particular to keep the theme of those arcs consistent. Rest of them, i don't care. If i could change anything about one piece, it would be only those 2 fake deaths.
Yeah It's the books being saved that makes much less sense. In hindsight, Saul surviving looks to have been intended since the beginning so It will probably be integral to his character and Robin's, and the story in general. Despite that, after so many fake deaths it's normal for Saul surviving to leave a bitter taste. I too don't know how to feel about It. The stuff about the books Is terrible though, Oda can't even kill books lmao. Anyway I think It detracts from Robin's story
I so agree, Wano is a great example of this all, Kinemon and Kiku both got amazing and well written death scenes which turned out to be fake, whereas the scabbards that did die had subpar ones like did anyone else actually think Ashuras death scene was his actual death
exactly this entire video encapsulates why i am so bored of this manga, after reading asuras death i was waiting for him to reappear because it was so sudden and badly written that it didnt feel like a genuine death
Fisher tiger example had me cackling. But couldn’t agree more. It’s especially tough seeing other modern shonen fully embrace the power for tragedy, and Oda being so oddly selective when he does so. Oda also hinges so much of his tension on the prospect of death these days. And especially with the Saul reveal, we have no little reason to believe that he’ll follow through any death from the most minor to major character defining deaths. I mean go watch a Pokémon battle from the latest series. You can have tension in shonen without the threat of death. It’s so weird to me that Oda has this love for the drama of tragedy but almost none of the ability to follow through.
Yup, sports series don’t rely on characters dying most of the time to create tension. You can still do tragedy and Oda has done it before, like with Kuro it makes you feel sad for Kaya and Merry they were betrayed and put their trust in the wrong person even if Merry also survives some nasty injuries, Shushu has his owner’s shop that he was guarding burn down. I mean Oda doesn’t have to dangled death as the consequence for everything but he keeps doing it.
@@somerandomguy7325 I still am waiting for the day Pedro comes back. I'm never 100% believing he's dead until Oda stops anything to do with One Piece as a franchise lol
It's not weird for me that he treats death so weird because in some of his quotes he's stated he does things a certain way because at the end of the day this is for children. I think in Odas mind he can have all types of messed up stuff happen and kids can handle it but Death will mess them up. So he avoids it as much as possible. However he is frankly lazy with how he avoids the deaths, basically has it happen and then say "they survived it somehow".
Totally agree man. It rings so hallow. The fact that we’ve gotten to a point where fully fleshed out death scenes like Pedro’s can be doubted just proves the point
Agreed! Pell's Death scene in Alabasta was very emotional for me. Now upon re-watching it again, I will never feel any emotion towards that scene, because Oda gave me a false promise of ending a character, meaning he basically trolled me! And I hate it!
This kind of video is the reason why you're the only One Piece RUclipsr I watch. You're someone who enjoys the series and will praise One Piece for the many things it does well while also not being afraid to point out flaws in the story when they arise. It's a shame the greater community knows nothing about story telling mechanics, and this video is likely going to be seen as a One Piece hate video by most of them. Still, huge W for continuing to make these kinds of videos that promote actual discussion instead of hype and clickbait videos like a lot of the other One Piece RUclipsrs.
I agree. While I've only watched up to Enies Lobby(as of this reply, because Netflix has yet to add the other arcs), I can say with confidence that One Piece as a whole, is not perfect. Yes, there are some great moments, but at the same time, there's a lot of nonsensical stuff.(Ex: the fake out deaths)
I should add that Pell not dying weakens Crocodile's plan. As far as I recall, Crocodile was going to detonate a bomb with a 5 km radius in 30 minutes in the city square during a civil war. Would some people survive? Sure. But a lot of people would die. But by making Pell survive, it retroactively lowered the stakes, because if one person can take the full explosion point blank, then take a massive fall and survive, it makes me think the bomb wasn't that powerful to begin with.
The way Oda treats character deaths is why I can never feel any tension in arcs anymore. I know nothing bad will happen so I'm just enjoying the world building and reveals more than any battles. I was surprised with the few deaths we had on Wano but literally felt nothing just because I didn't believe it until it was confirmed. He chose his path and doesn't feel any shame in it obviously since he is writing the story he wants to write. I don't feel bad for hating it either and considering it a failure on Oda's part.
Same. I enjoy One Piece, it’s a great show. However, I can’t stop perceiving it as a happy-go-lucky story (which is fine as the story is a romance). The final war arc will not feel tense at all for most readers.
I think this right here might contribute to my personal feelings. I heard that some people cried when Robin found out that Saul was alive and I felt something too, but I generally feel emotionally detached from anything dramatic in One Piece
Imagine a boy dating a girl. He makes all the moves to make her fall for him. Taking her out for dinner, spending time travelling etc. And she did fall for him eventually. But then when the time comes to make the relationship finally official, the boy backs out and says that it wasn't his intention. He just wants the girl to fall for her but not want to follow through, leaving the girl dumbfounded. That's the analogy for what Oda is doing.
I like how you explained the "false" death scene, and this is what i hate about finding out that Saul is alive. If we find out that Pedro is alive, then I can't trust a death scene in one piece anymore.
His death was completely ruined... i have not seen a single person who took his death seriously at that moment and that is the exact proof for how bad the situation realy is.
-Retconed Robins backstory -cheapened the tragedy of Sauls fate -Robin was supposed to carry the will of Ohara, but i guess not really, which makes her character even more useless -makes the WG look even more incompetent and less of a threat than it already was
Death has always been Oda’s biggest weakness. It really sucks because death is such a ginormous aspect in the story. It’s the greatest weapon that any author can use against their readers.
i wouldn't say death is a ginormous aspect in one piece's story. its like saying comedy is a ginormous aspect in game of thrones story. in my perspective at least.
@@MegaDragonmark this is a dumb answer.. game of thrones isn't about comedy.. with a anime surrounding a pirate theme.. why is death so uncommon.. if anything death should be every other chapter ..fighting and death should be main stay in a pirate themed anime
@@LordblackGaming that was the point of that game of thrones comparison. one piece is light hearted story that may or may not feed you a death of a character. it is about the adventure. saying death rules over it is a dumb thing to think. when it shows the exact opposite the main character and most of the D clan do not fear it. plus look at game of thrones that had many deaths in that and people hate how it ended. death is not great. its cheep.
@@MegaDragonmark it's bittersweet.. because it kinda feels weird now after the Saul stunt.. ima watch to see wat happens..now it feels like everyone who died is possibly alive somehow u know..
I wouldn't have minded Saul surviving if it weren't for all the other fake out deaths that served no purpose other than to baby the audience. Bon Clay, Pell, Kinemon, Lola's dad. Fake out deaths like Igaram and Saul actually make sense given the context of the characters and the situation surrounding them.
I think this especially plays into Izo and Ashura's deaths offscreen. They were written in the way Oda would write a fake out death, but were intended to be legitimate death scenes. I still can't shake that I'm happy to know Saul is alive, can't really tell you why, but I definitely see the point being made here and can definitely acknowledge it in the sense that I do feel a little more critical about this reveal now, even if it's not enough to really spoil it for me personally
Yup. My biggest problem with all these fake out deaths is that we don’t know when real deaths will happen. The impact of ashura and izos deaths were nonexistent because most readers just assumed they weren’t dead because Oda never kills characters.
Agreed you can really tell izou and ashura doji died just to have a character death. There were little hints that they were willing to die in the raid but even so they never got the care of a death scene like a kinemon or pell. I feel like you might be happy that saul is alive because of the insane pay off it could have if the moment of his reunion with robin is executed right, we lost the powerful moment of his "Death scene" but gained a powerful moment of two characters moving on from a traumatic moment now being able to confide in each other.
I think its why everyone was amazed they even died, nobody even realized it and Asura really seemed like he would come back. I mean Pell came back after surviving a bomb that was million times worse and Izo only looked hurt from an off screen fight
i dont understand why a couple of people keep saying ashura's death was offscreen, it was absolutely not. the scabbards even reacted in that moment like he actually died.
@@genep9302 yeah, I get Izo, but tbh I was always one of the people saying Ashura was dead, that moment actually felt final for him. Kin I didn't believe because 2 pages at the start of the chapter didn't feel enough for a character we knew for half the story. Saul........I'm conflicted because I agree with Morj but I feel him being alive has story potential, but let's see how it goes.
Don’t worry Sanji, Sora didn’t die, she was brought back to life by Vegapunk who was assisted by Dr Hiriluk, who also faked his death and was sent to Egghead island by a ship Tom made, who also survived Oh and Bell-mere was really sent to a dungeon, that wasn’t a 4Kids error
At this point, yeah, why not? Even better, make Kaido awaken his devil fruit to become a grant-wishing dragon, so that then everybody can wish every person that actually died to be resurrected.
@@cavendish2925 Hey, what you said have made me think about my way of expressing my hyperbole. I will be more insightful in the future. Thanks for your support!
@@Yoseqlo1 Yeah. Also your hyperbole up there completely sucked anyway, because you're poking fun at the idea of Oda resurrecting dead characters ala Dragonball, when the guy has said on record in one of his interviews that he hates the revival/resurrection of dead characters. Hate his fakeout deaths, but sure enough the guy kept his word. His "dead" characters "survived" fake, implied deaths, never actually dying and then reviving (examples being Ace, Whitebeard, Oden, Bellemere, Hiruluk, Corazon, just to name a few, firmly established dead characters whose only way of coming back into the story is actual revival via a resurrecting technique).
he was also saving momo and shinobu, that would have 100% died if he didnt step up that would have so much meaning, all for it to be wasted for a useless fake death
@@fy4072 exactly. It made kaido look terrible. Throughout the entire war he wasn’t able to kill a single person. He couldn’t kill the scabbards, the supernovas, orochi, hell he couldn’t even kill the cp0 guy who got in the way of his fight with luffy. It sucks cause kaido was so hype pre onigashima. But the way Oda chose to write him during onigashima was disappointing. Like bruh, akainu one tapped ace. ACE!!! Who is for sure stronger than all the scabbards. The fact that kaido couldn’t kill a single character is beyond disappointing.
What annoying is when people try to defend it by saying “well the character though they were gonna die so it’s still just as good.” Like what? That’s like saying “Oh this fight between two friends is still super emotional even tho 1 of them was just a fake actor”
I feel like Saul isn't the best example to use for this, because his 'revival' can also repaint the meaning of Oharu as being there was always hope - people were always working behind the scenes to make sure the scope of a tragedy would not eclipse the value of their lives. With MOST of these fake deaths, when a character is shown to have not died, there's also no purpose to it; they're simply existing in a place, somewhere, doing something out of the scope of the main plot. A character dying in a book or movie doesn't necessarily mean nothing if they come back or recover, after all. It just depends on the context of the story, what that return meant and how the characters they left behind were impacted by it, in the moment. This is an issue in One Piece, but Saul still being alive is thematically appropriate for resisting the world government's attempts to destroy knowledge and hope.
Well said. Morj is not actually looking at the bigger picture of Saul's survival and is instead very emotionally attached to the past which hampers his take on the whole thing.
@@cavendish2925 With all the blunders that happened, especially during Wano, one should have the right to question if Oda still cares about those themes at this point to that degree.
But isn't that robin's point? She inherits the will of Ohara in regards to protecting knowledge from the government. Saul doesn't feel like bringing back something that was snuffed out, rather it's more like there's now a second person alive that was in Ohara and knows about the government's attempts to destroy knowledge directly.
@@justaway6901 ? What do you mean when you said "Oda still cares about those themes?" That Oda no longer cares about the themes of his series because of... fakeout deaths? Since you mentioned Wano, what about Kinemon's and Kiku's fakeout deaths that have anything to do with destroying the themes of One Piece lol.
I disagree. Saul, unlike Kinemon, Pagaya, and ESPECIALLY Pell, is now actively controlling the narrative by being alive. He is drawing the protagonists to him like a magnet and in turn becoming one of the most influential characters yet. There is now a tanglible story purpose for going to Elbaf on a scale worthy of how hyped up this island has been for 20+ years. The problem with Pell is that he has yet to do anything but be an extra in random Alabasta scenes. Contributing nothing. Saul is quite literally the librarian of Ohara now. And as someone who isn't originally from Ohara, him being alive doesn't change that Robin is still the last of Ohara. Saul being alive is fake out done right. For once.
Saul feels different to me, and I think the reason is that it's actually being treated with narrative weight. The problem with Pell is that there's no reason to even bring him back; it's practically a footnote. The same happened with Pagaya. And Pound was revealed to be alive in a tangential cover story. The story gains nothing from them being alive. But Saul has three things going for him, three things that show me the story is actually able to justify revealing he's alive. Firstly, it actually had it be relevant to Robin as soon as it's revealed. Because if someone that important is alive, then the main characters should actually care about it! Secondly, it's setting up an obvious even greater emotional climax when they will get to reunite, further showing that this isn't just a random footnote that undoes something impactful, but is actually going to be explored. Finally, it's clearly implied that Saul went through a major character change due to this. Someone like Pell didn't change at all, but just went from being presumed dead to being actually alive. But Saul went from being someone who wanted to be distinguished from the violent giants of Elbaf to someone who worked alongside them, likely because he believed it was necessary. We all know scars symbolize trauma and personal significance in OP, and Saul is apparently covered in them. This tells us that the Saul we'll see will be a changed, possibly darker person, because of what happened. A lot of false deaths, like with Kin'emon, are treated so inconsequentially that they could practically be written out of the story. But Saul is set up for these experiences to actually matter to him. It's not like Oda shouldn't have written a death scene if he was going to bring him back, like with Kin'emon. There's a good chance that his story needed to have this, and while coming right off the chapter it's disappointing to lose the weight of Robin's backstory, this has actual potential as its own story.
Lol this comment is nonsensical. Robin and Saul reuniting will be nowhere near as emotionally climactic as the end of her flashback. It being revealed to Robin doesn’t make it better at all. Lastly saul is not a major character so wtf are you taking about “character change” as if he didn’t already switch sides and betray the marines when he saved robin. It already happened for him, and reviving him 700 chapter later to add character development would be even worse writing. You completely missed the point of the video
Agreed I feel like morj is right that the climax that is saul death is lost once you know he alive however I feel like he should've touched on that climax is now replaced with something as great or possibly even greater which is the payoff of saul words "you wont be alone in this world, you will find friends that you can trust". He also should've touched on robin trauma after saul death which isn't magically removed due to him being alive because she spent 20 years of her life with no friends or anyone she could trust meaning sauls words hasn't rung true yet which imo is apart of the tragedy of ohara. Without the straw hats she potentially would've died even before knowing saul is still out there which is a whole tragic moment within itself, because she trusted his words and found those friends she can now get to saul. Also, like you said this is a saul who is potentially changed because oda is hiding his design meaning whatever he had to do to survive had drastic consequences and he had to suck in his pride and work with the other giants of elbaf to continue the will of ohara.
@@TyandOnGoing highly unlikely the replacement will be greater. And what do you mean by the payoff of his words "you wont be alone in this world..." ? That payoff has already happened regardless of him surviving or not.
@@rinkusan978 wdym unlikely? There a reason why the majority of the fanbase is okay with saul being alive and that is because the reunion is going to be emotionally resonance as not only has robin achieved saul dream for her but she now can carry the will of ohara with the only friend who experienced the trauma with her. Saul is not from ohara but that makes it so her reunion can still be emotionally resonant without taking away the fact that robin is still the only survivor from ohara.
Fake deaths or death scenes shouldn't be bad if we have two conditions: (1) they are very few and far between, and (2) the character being alive serves a purpose in the story. Pell's fake death is so bad not only because of the robbed tragedy, but because he doesn't do anything else forward, it feels like a boring happy ending for him. At least Saul would probably play a role in the story soon.
I agree with everything you've mentioned, but there's a tiny difference in why I'm not bothered in Saul's case. For Pell and Pound, it was a chapter about them. We were meant to feel emotional for them and their sacrifices. For Saul, I think I was much more attached to Robin than Saul and the sad death scene for Saul hits me because I actually felt bad for Robin. It's a similar case to Ace, where we don't actually see much of him in the story and it's such an emotional scene because of Luffy's attachment to Ace, not mine. I'm emotionally invested in Luffy more than Ace, and I think it's similar here where I see it as an emotional Robin scene more than an emotional Saul scene, which makes the reveal and whole Robin being happy he's alive okay in my book. I do see why it bothers some people though.
The way i see it, it also has to do with the nostalgia of tension. Readers want to be able to revisit high points of the story and relive the thrill. But i think the problem is that many readers including Morj unreasonably want to crystalize that tension without processing it at all or appreciating the relief of a survival/the followthru. Even if they are just characters in a story, it would sociopathic to look back at the climax of their trials and just laugh it off because of foreknowledge. Still a completely reasonable argument for its technicalities, but it's also pedantic. Sure it's not as tense, but knowing that a character survives should not diminish the significance of their decision to sacrifice themselves, even on a reread. If a good character survives, you should be relieved and happy. Pell can go on serving Alabastre, Pound can make up for lost time & be a grandfather, Kin'emon & Kiku can be defenders of their country & mentors to their fledgling lord, and Saul saved the Will of Ohara. That's just how you should process tension & survivals once they are revealed.
@@kingflockthewarrior202 the awaken heal heal fruit that mansherry has will reincarnate dead people and every one who has ever died will come back to life. Readers all around the world will start chanting Goda and Chapter 1, Twitter will be swarmed with #peakfiction and literature as we know will never be the same again.
Saul is the only one I feel was done well in the fakeout death train since I feel like he's the man marked by flames and seeing how happy Robin was to meet up with him again potentially with her friends showing off such great comrades plus the rest of them accomplished nothing if anything especially Pell and Pound that cover story still haunts me
That's literally not what most people like me who defend Saul's survival argue but if misrepresenting our arguments makes you feel better, go for it I guess. Also comparing Saul to Ace is... very dumb, to put it mildly.
I personally don't mind Saul being alive and think that it's a pretty different scenario compared to Pell, Pagaya, kinemon, etc. The emotions I feel during Robin's backstory come from the POV of Robin. Robin's family, the scholars, and villagers were all killed and the only other person that she could call a friend was taken from her. At the end of her backstory, Robin is alone in the world no matter what actually happened to Saul. Whether it's him dying, getting thrown in impel down, or surviving and going to Elbaf. Robin is a child that is alone in the world and cannot rely on anyone for help due to her bounty and reputation.
So? Law lost his frineds, family and was soon to die due to sickness. And it was from Law's perspective. Does this make Corazon's sacrifice less important? LAw was all alone in the world no matter what happened to Corazon. So let's bring Corazon back as well. I am sure Oda has a great explanation for it just like the Kinemon one 'Where he was cut at just the right place.' 😂😂😂
@@fy4072 Law and Corazon's relationship was much more developed that Robin and Saul. Corazon as a character alone is also much more beloved than Saul. It's a different case. Corazon's death also develops Law/Doflamingo dynamic which is a good focus in Dressrosa. Saul, overall, is one of three major characters in Robin's flashback that dies, so him being alive doesn't negate other things. One thing that Morj doesn't mention in the video is the fate of the character after we found out he is alive. Pell being alive and then being irrelevant for all these chapters make me hate that death scene even more. But, with Saul, finding out that he is alive with Robin's reaction did make me feel happy. It makes me excited for Elbaf and Robin-Saul reunion. Saul is carrying the will of Ohara. There is a promise that Oda is making that Saul will be relevant in Elbaf arc. It's not just about "there is an out" that a lot of fans are positive about it compared to Pell.
I agree but also think the scene has less emotional value now on a reread. My biggest gripe with the other fake deaths you mentioned is that the characters being alive now serve no real purpose to the story so why cheapen those scenes. Saul being alive will have some purpose and has already added some emotional value to the story from seeing Robin's reaction and will probably have more when they reunite. Like you said on a reread the scene will still have some weight to it as for most of Robin's life in the story it still effected her as a character.
@@deepEleven No it extremely similar. Robin meets Saul when she was at her lowest and become friends. Law meets Corazon when he was at it's lovest and became close. Corazon sacrifices himself for Law and gives him hope. Saul sacrifices himself for Robin and gives her hope. Saul is indeed the third faction that died, because Robin's mom and archeologists also died. Guess what? Law's parents and his friends and his whole country also died. So Corazon is like a fifth ro sixth faction that died 😂 As for Law's relationship being used in the narrative doesn't change anything at all. We are talking about the emotional impact on characters in the story. Not moving the plot. So by your logic, if there is a logical explanation and it will move the plot forward Corazon being alive and doing stuff in current timeline is also ok for you? 😂
Extremely well articulated. I've been trying to explain this to people the last few days but most just don't get it. They are completely hung up on the "plausibility" of Saul coming back, and not how it affects us, the readers.
It's not that people don't get it but just don't want to admit it. Because in their minds, admitting that there is a shortcoming in a story they love is somehow invalidating their love and passion for it so they shut their ears and deflect
My issue is how oda pulls out all the narrative tension and weight of a death whilst also keeping the character alive, it’s completely having his cake and eating it. Love how well he sticks to logic and everything making sense but I can’t say I feel any real danger or tension when a character is about to die until it’s already to late most of the time in one piece
There is legit 0% death tension in this anime .. which means you will subconsciously take every fight as a comedy expecting nothing serious to happen because no one ever dies or even gets close ... so u don't feel any don't of threat..
You explained perfectly, especially with the examples towards the end, why fake deaths are a problem in story telling. This goes beyond just One Piece but since it’s the subject matter, I agree with you in terms of the weight of the Saul death moment in retrospect being essentially nullified. Robin’s happy face in this chapter is the only reason why I was ok with it
not nullified, she lived 20 years with it. Was going to die before she even knew he was alive. And has the audience, we have been almost through the same amount of time since that momment as Robin has. It is cheapen by other fakeout deaths in the series, on its own its not ruined.
11 месяцев назад+3
The thing that has disappointed me in my favourite manga is this very issue. As a reader, I get emotionally invested in these characters and their tragedy, then feel betrayed when I see them walking around just fine. As you say, it significantly affects its re-readability. Pell wasn't supposed to come back. Period. In Wano, Ashura and Izo's deaths have lost all impact, since I was numbed by Kinemon and Kiku's case, such a pity. For the moment, Saul coming back seems such a waste and shame, but perhaps our perception might change as the story unfolds. It feels late in the story, but if there's more to Saul and Aokiji's story, we might be misjudging it with our lack of knowledge. Although I don't know if that would be better than a failed fake out death scenario.
I felt almost no tension in the Onigashima War because I didn’t think it was possible for anyone to die. While I was disproven when Izo and Asura died, they died off-screen while Kinemon and Kiku somehow survived lying in pools of their own blood. Only two of the scabbards dying was far too little, and I still have very little tension going into the final saga. This is the biggest problem with One Piece, in my opinion
i think oda actually does intend to kill characters at least some of the time but then feels bad because he loves his characters so much and changes his mind. i definitely see how the lack of dramatic commitment can be frustrating but tbh it doesn't really bother me
What makes me upset is that Oda is a fantastic writer with incredible foresight who puts meticulous thought into his work. So he knows he’s cheating you, the reader, and making you invested in a character for the sake of a cheap emotional moment
- Shadow figures - "That" character moments - Looming threats(not really) - Reckless handling of tone (forced transition from tragedy to celebration) - Fake hype - Fake death - Actually killing characters who have "died" just casually Wano is full of this crap writing. The fact that people felt insulted with the Saul revelation(despite being reasonable and thematically-sound) is a testament to how much trust with the readers Oda had broken. The fact that Oda is using the CP0 again as a looming threat in the Egghead Arc is seriously a salt to the wound. Also, I don't believe he has an "incredible" foresight or meticulous at this point. He was. But not anymore.
I perfectly get Morj's point with regards to how it doesnt matter if the fakeout was planned or there was good evidence that a character would likely survive, a fakeout is still a fakeout but Saul surviving didnt really take away anything from the story. I still remember when I first saw Pell surviving and thought that it shouldve been a better decision if he remained dead for Vivi's growth as a person. The thing is, the Ohara incident wasnt tragic because of Saul, it was tragic because an entire island full of people and scholars got genocided just because they wanted to study true history. With Robin, it wasnt only Saul who loved her, it was all the scholars, Prof Clover, and Olvia that deeply cares for her. All of them except for one got decimated on that arc. Remove Saul from the equation and Ohara is still as tragic. When people would eventually reread the Ohara incident, even knowing that Saul survive, they'll still feel the tension and struggle and sacrifice Saul did on that scene (I still did), acknowledge the fact that Aokiji and Saul are friends and that Aokiji casted Ice Time Capsule on him and then look forward to the eventual reunion with Robin.
I feel the same. We as readers may not be able to go back to that scene and feel the despair that comes with Saul's death, because we know he isn't. But we can feel the despair Robin is feeling in that moment, because for her, in that moment, Saul is actually done for. And before that was clover, then her mother, then the whole isle. One of his friends making it alive actually comes with a lot of emotion, rather than erasing already felt emotions In my opinion, this issue is getting more attention because we've had other fake deaths. But for all of them, this is the only one I feel adds nothing negative
Agreed, the trauma is not LOST because saul is alive. Robin still had to experience 20 years being alone with no one to trust which saul tried to say you will eventually find friends. Now we have a robin who developed past that and can finally show that what he said did come true which will be insane payoff. Also the one thing that makes it not even as much as a problem for me is that saul is not from ohara making robin still the last survivor of ohara meaning hte trauma will still be there regardless of saul is alive or not.
Although I truly admire Oda I must agree with Morj on this one. Oda chooses to treat his characters deaths really badly if they are not of great importance like Ace or Whitebeard.He either gives us real deaths that are unnecessary for the plot or fake ones that are proven really anticlimactic.
Very good video. It gives voice to what a lot of us have been feeling but have perhaps neither the platform nor clarity to explain so succinctly. Thank you, Morj
I'm glad that someone really points this out... writing fake deaths was one the biggest let down of this beautifully written series...and i felt it with Pell's death (as I was new to the series)...i truly loved the sacrifice he made for the sake of his country...and i truly started adoring him...but just after few episodes i found that he is alive...like wtf...and then as i continued watching the series i realised maybe it's hard for Oda sensie to kill some characters (as he might use it in any part of the story...which is justifiable for a long running series like one piece)...but i genuinely think some of the deaths (or i should say "sacrifices" ) needs to be real like pedero's, bon clay's otherwise there's no point loving them... I'm not saying characters needs to die ...just some "sacrifices" needs to be real and i hope oda sensie will not disappoint us with this as well because I guess there's still a good chance of many shocking and genuine deaths and sacrifices in the "Final war" and I'm really looking how Oda sensie handles it
Feel the same way about Pell and it was the first time it really feel wrong. I think Oda just wants a world where the pain of losing someone isn't prevalence.
@@clashonyt24 If I remember correctly, he's alive and he's the new ruler of the level Ivankov was leading. It happened only in the manga I think, don't know when. I'll try and see if it is true and if so when it occurs
I 100% agree. Take Kishimoto for example. When he kills off characters in Naruto, he actually follows through with it. Where as with Oda, he writes false death scenes so much, that I no longer trust him when it comes to character deaths. Because he doesn't follow through, thus killing any tension I felt during those scenes.
Since it seems like a lot of people don’t care anyways I will say I agree with you Morj. I know that Saul being alive makes sense and that Oda probably had this planned from the beginning but now it just completely sours his death scene and every other death scene because of how Oda has been handling them. I genuinely unironically expect it to turn out that Tom was actually alive this whole time and will come with end game lore so people will look past it and go “You know we didn’t actually see him die, I knew he was alive this whole time.”
I find the use of other important, dead flashback characters as a subject of comparison pretty stupid considering that Saul being alive has a lot more going for it than Bellemere, Hiruluk, Tom, Fisher Tiger, etc. being alive. The fact alone that out of all the flashback characters only Saul (Sabo doesn't count as his survival was pretty obvious) was even theorized to be alive for some time now should be telling enough.
I actually think Saul's situation is somewhat different from the others you mentioned in your video, as the weight of Saul's death in the reader is not in the fact that we care about the character and is sad to see him go, but rather that we care a lot about Robin, and now she's going to live life completely alone, which is the point of her narrative. We care emotionally about Saul dying just because we care about Robin, and through her perspective, which is the one of an 8 year-old girl who just lost his best friend and now have to live alone, he's dead, so the scene holds the same weight for me. I don't frame it as "damn, Saul died", but rather as "damn, Robin had to live her childhood alone trusting no one", so the death being fake is not an issue because Robin only finds out about it after that phase of her life has ended.
I actually really agree with this take. I think this is the reason i liked it so much. Robin is one of my favorite characters in the whole series, and seeing her have such amazing emotional moments always makes me tear up and i love it. I just want to see her be happy about the success of ohara after being labeled a demon throughout her childhood.
Perfectly said In Robin's mind, she had no idea Saul was still alive. She spent 22 years thinking he sacrificed himself in an attempt to save her and give her hope for a brighter future, and him being alive doesn't change how his sacrifice affected her entire life up until now. Comparing how Saul's "death affected Robin to Ace immediately being revived by "Mr. Fixit" just makes no sense to me and I don't really understand how you could compare the 2 situations
@@bobbybobwellington Morj's comparison of the two situations is definitely a reach. Saul surviving doesn't change anything at all, Robin still lost everyone in Ohara including the most important figure in her life being her mother Olvia (Morj even says this fact in the video so I'm even more dumbfounded as to why he made this comparison in the first place). Meanwhile, Ace surviving would've catastrophic effects on the story. The "Mr. Fixit reviving Ace" comparison doesn't even come close to "Saul being saved by Ice Time Capsule" theory either, because that's not the only possible explanation for his survival. You still have Aokiji himself and the Buster Call potentially thawing out the ice. Simply put, Saul has a lot more going for him surviving than any other significant dead flashback character. While I understand Morj's feelings on the matter of fakeout deaths, that whole video section of him using other flashback characters' potential fakeout death as an example to compare with Saul is just really stupid to me - something I didn't expect from whom I consider the most logical and levelheaded of the OP RUclipsrs.
While true, the bigger issue is that Oda has done fakeouts so many times that nothing about his survival really feels as major or impactful as it should.
I totally agree with you. One of greatest strengths of oda's story telling is the depiction of suffering and emotional wounds certain characters have in them affecting their decisions. One of greatest weaknesses of his story telling is the lack of confidence in whether a dead character has been max fleshed out for the story. This fear leads to Pell kinda situations. I do get feelings often that characters like Pell will ultimately die around the last arcs of one piece.
I was just watching a vid about you talking about this on "morj raid discussions", I'm looking forward to see your polished view on this because it is certainly a recurring topic in the fandom that has been taken to a new level with Saul.
Onigashima was a festival of fake deaths.... - Kiku taking a fat slash, loosing an arm , she is fine. - Kanjuro, take all the hits from his - comrades. Left dying. And oopsie, he is fine. Later on he takes yet again fatal blow. And he is fine lol. - Kaido defeats all the samurais on the rooftop, they are bleeding to death. And oopsie, Kaido the Yonko never checked whether or not they were dead. - Orochi, gets decapitated, for a scene that makes Kaido a fearsome ruthless opponent, also getting rid of a very annoying character. And no Orochi has the annoying devil fruit, to keep being annoying again and again. Later on he is left for dead another time, to be alive again. And he doesn't accomplish anything. - Kaido himself, just comes back again and again and again and again... - Scratchman Apoo, takes a fat shishisonson from Zorro. He is cut from head to bottom. And he just has a headache... - Even the little old man, Yakuza, that taught Luffy a technique. He was willing to sacrifice and so on. But noo, he stays alive. And we will be sure to never see that character anyway. What was the point of making him deliver a sacrifice speech. - Kinemon was supposedly dead on the rooftop, but he is fine. Then in this room with all the samurais he takes an horrible blow from Kaido himself, in a bleak panel that would have been a legendary scene. But noooo. He is fine when he is cut in half 🤡. I like Kinemon, I don't want him to die, he is a father figure for Momo. And that's why the scene was so powerful. Now it is just a ridiculous scene. And it is a war with not 1 but 2 Yonkos as opponents. We are supposed to feel not to mess around with 2 Yonkos. But in the end. Two Yonkos are barely able to kill anyone memorable. I don't particularly care about Asura. And the former white beard captain. I just never assumed he was dead. And when I got the news I was thinking, well, the arc is already over. I would have like to feel something clear sooner. And because of Oda's habits, I felt nothing to worry. It's a war, and I fear for nobody. No tension. I think it was part of the reason I was looking for Onigashima to end. Because I knew there was no big point to follow the fights. In the end the moments I enjoyed the most were Killer and Hawkins fight. As well as Law and Kidd vs Big Mom. Because those characters, I wasn't completely sure Oda would keep them in the story afterwards. It's funny to think that. BM and Kaido made two big battles, the fall into a lava pool. And then a volcano eruption occured. And absolutely nobody is sure that they are dead 😂. It's crazy.
I really love when you bring these logic bombs to the community morj, and wish more people would actually listen to what you're saying instead of just reading the title and commenting the opinion they already had..
Yeah I do generally agree with you here. It's specifically because this practice cheapens the impact of those otherwise weighty scenes in hindsight. I'm _personally_ still weirdly okay with the Saul one though (not entirely, I definitely would have preferred it to not be this way, but notably more okay than with any other). I don't really even buy into the Capsule thing that much, the logic side of it still feels shaky, but there's _something_ about this one that I can't quite put my finger on that makes it feel much better than the others.. One of those illogical things of emotion I guess.
an icetime capsule on an island on fire is just asking to be thawed, especially when we got the precedent of luffy and robin thawing in simple warm water. The logic is very sound on this one, especially since giants have a huge vitality and can tank a lot
@@Wawa-qn5pm Oh yeah I'm not debating that part, it's entirely plausible he could have thawed out and possibly even escaped before the following search of the island by the soldiers (not that he really should have been in any condition to, and hiding doesn't sound exactly likely for a giant, but it's not impossible). Would have taken some luck to not have gotten destroyed by the cannonfire (frozen people being easily shattered was also established), but that's not exactly unusual. It's more the "capsule foreshadowing" thing that I'm not really feeling. Probably should have worded it better.
@@IceAokiji303 Or none of your emotions is illogical, because you feel that it is a more logical fakeout death than others - which it is. Just your username alone tells you enough.
I was going to disagree with you, but someone else mentioned Asura and Izo's deaths in Wano, and I'll be honest... I totally forgot that they died, and they are a perfect example of Oda's weird way of handling death in One Piece kinda does make death such a weird thing.
Yeah, at this point no matter how fucked up a character gets on screen, there’s really no tension for me because I find it hard to believe they’re actually in any danger
The amount of people in the comments saying "its okay because ROBIN felt it" is baffling. Literally didn't watch the video and just commented whatever they already felt.
I hear what you are saying and understand your frustrations. It can be annoying when a character is given a full death scene, a send off, a final goodbye, just to have a "haha jk" pop up later. However, I would like you to look at it from a different perspective. You say that through a re-read of the series these scenes mean nothing now, and that's understandable too, you know what's coming, you know the death is fake. But each of these fake death scenes I think you should re examine from the perspective of the characters involved. To Robin, Saul was dead. Oda needed us to feel what she felt, to grow as she grew, to understand her perspective. If we knew that Saul was alive the whole time, the reveal later would be meaningless on the first read through, the "true" read through (experiencing things the first time WITH the Straw Hats). I don't disagree with you, but respectfully, I think that Oda does this for a purpose that you're not seeing. He wants us the reader to feel what the characters feel in the moment. He's faking a death because to those in the moment the possibility of death is real. It may be subverted later, but now we get to feel all the feelings of that characters return as the Straw Hats would really feel them!
I feel like there was something tragic yet very beautiful about Saul being dead, him impacting Robin's life and dying trying to protect her, the fact that he only lived through her memories after that, there is something there which is so beautiful, i don't know how to explain it properly, i am happy for Robin but i have to admit that him being alive takes something special away from that moment for me, just my personal opinion :)
That was the point, it is beautiful in that context, but now there is the current state of one piece where you know that Saul never died so it does not have the same impact anymore. I have to agree that it's really well written scene but now when I go through it again in re-read it feels just empty because I know that Saul was frozen in time and saved at later date..
Likewise people keep bringing up him being a d. As a good reason for him to be alive and back in the story. We obviously haven’t unpacked all the mysteries of being a D. yet. So hey, maybe they are right. But Sauls death added to the mystique of the name to me. This random giant with this big mysterious name had this humble and tragic death to help one small girl he befriended. He didnt have to be some larger than life world shaker like most of the other D.‘s we’ve met. It’s beautiful on a character level and a world level.
@@velho6298 I'm of the mind that we lived that experience through Robin. The suspense created from the readers who typically have omniscience is overrun with new information. Even though she believed Saul died that event was insanely traumatic and a core part of Robin's journey. Imo Saul being alive gives more weight to Robin choosing to go to sea with Straw hats and not give in to the WG. Only now can Robin cry tears of joy of fighting past that darkness to learn her faith in his words led her all the way to that point, where she shown bailing her eyes out. Its a beautiful moment in an otherwise tragic story for Robin. Kinda like the light at the end of the tunnel, the issue is we don't know what happens next or if Saul will stay alive. Tbh I feel like he might die fr this time in front of her just as she learns about the Lost Century. Never trust an anime miracle til the fat lady sings, we could always have the rugged pulled from under us with new events/info.
The greastest thing about this video is that it addresses the personal investment we all have in the series. I personally didn't lose a whole lot from Saul being alive and am looking forward to how Oda will use the character + these reveals for the plot later on. However, I acknowledge your perspective and belive it's valid to feel this way about characters coming back like a Pell and a Saul. The value that you place on the series, which is the emotions it draws, has been lost to some degree and that's kinda unfortunate
I also think its important to mention Robin's backstory does not end with Saul's death. The saddest part to me was what came after. Which extended to 20 years of her lonelyness, abuse, and inability to trust others, until the Strawhats broke her out of that. The 15 years since I read that chpater are pretty close to Robin's distance to those events. I don't think such a time spend in our lives with one Piece should be ignored. But of course, I also need to understand the POV of someone only only reading or watching One Piece and not having gone through a world when Saul was thought dead, and on that end it is a Pell-like scene. But I feel... out it, I think it might change when enought time goes by. However, as of now, I, in emulation via the story, like Robin, carried that weight for over a decade. So, being a prisioner to the moment, I couldn't help being happy with Saul being alive.
I always appreciate that you speak your mind when you don´t like something...some fans need to learn that it´s okay to not like everything about your fav series and still enjoy it
hard agree. if i found out law's family survived, I'd imagine it would cheapen my favorite backstory in the same way Saul's revival seems to have for you. I still love robins backstory but this solidified Law's being my favorite of Oda's.
I personally don’t see how you see the sabo situation differently. Maybe his particular death scene wasn’t long and drawn out but they did have the whole ASL flashback in general happen. I see that you think the fact that Dragon was there makes it better for the Sabo situation but I think that is equal to Aokiji using time capsule. Other than the fact that you don’t treat those two situations the same I completely agree with where you’re coming from. I love Odas writing style but that is something I cannot over look.
I completely agree, it's cheating as a writer to capitalise on the emotional pay-off of a character death without then committing to the death unless there is a clearly established in world path to resurrection (like in Dragon Ball). I've kinda just accepted fake-outs as a part of One Piece though. The first few times were annoying, but by now it is what it is. I do think it's going to get worse though. I have a theory that Brooke's awakening will be able to call other peoples' souls back for a short period of time, and we're going to see Ace come back with it.
Let's be honest the only reason Saul is alive is so that Oda can tie in Egghead with Elbaf, The Revos, and Ohara. It doesn't even make sense how Saul got off the island or why he went to Elbaf when he wasn't affiliated to Elbaf or why he is the captain of what seems to be Hajruddin's pirate crew. Like bruh. Even the excuse of marines finding the books and not bothering to even report it OR as to why the CP agents didn't find and destroy them is just as lame
While I hate a lot of fake out deaths in One Piece, I don't mind Saul. You ignored one aspect of what makes a fakeout death bad. It is that they serve no purpose to the story, which was the case with Pell. Finding that Saul is alive with Robin's reaction is something that is different from Pell's situation or any other situation. We now want to look forward to the Robin-Saul reunion, which makes us excited for Elbaf arc. It's not just because "there is an out" that the fanbase has a much more positive reaction compared to Pell. And yeah, Saul being just one of the three important characters to die in Robin's flashback also matters. Under different circumstances I might have hated it, but Oda pulled it off this time that I genuinely was smiling when reading this chapter. (And I did reread the Robin flashback after this chapter and it still hits.)
So you're saying if Pell had a more plot related role in the story going forward, his fake death would've been justified? Cause one could argue Kinemon has an important role as Momo's main supervisor, yet his fake death scene is hated by most fans. And I think this role could have easily been played by Vegapunk, who already memorozed the books, or another giant who took after Saul, instead of bringing him back and ruining the death scene for some people. I think the real reason people like the Saul reveal boils down to Robin and fans wanting to see her happy after all she's gone through, which I can totally get.
@@enriquesalvador9904 That is one of the reasons. Others I mentioned was the reveal itself was with Robin's reaction that made it work. We now look forward to Robin-Saul reunion and Elbaf arc more. And Saul was just one out of 3 major characters to die in Robin's flashback, and his death was more sad because of Robin's POV. With Kinemon and Pell, the death was sad because Pell had an entire chapter dedicated to him and Kinemon is a character we have spent 100s of chapters with. Also, both these characters had a stupid reason for surviving and that factors in as well.
Spot on. I agree with you. The stupidest plot twist would be if Robin knew it all along. Then everything would be in vain. Aokiji wouldn't matter, Ohara wouldn't matter, and the whole Enies Lobby fight would be in vain. I think the stupidest death is with Pell. And I think if Pell would be dead, everything else would be excusable, even Kinemon.
OP fandom gaslighting themselves into accepting Oda's mistakes once again. Never change OP fans, never change. "Saul surviving is okay because he has a porpuse in the story". By that logic you should also be fine with Ace surviving too lmao.
@@HyakuJuu01300 It is one of the reasons. Saul is not nearly as important of a character as Ace was. There are many reasons that I listed in the replies, together that makes me feel okay with it. I will not repeat myself. I highlighted "no purpose" point because it felt weird that Morj never brought it up during his video, while only focusing that fans are happy because Oda foreshadowed it. And I hate fake out deaths: Pell, Pound, Kinemon etc. Will never defend those. Saul is just written differently.
The saddest thing is that the execution of these "deaths" are so good and I really don't understand why oda keep bringing them alive. Not mad about Saul tbh, I can't wait for Robin to meet him.
@@justaway6901 I know it's a joke but just in case some idiot takes it seriously; Edo Tensei was straight up resurrection, which Oda said in one of his interviews that he hated (resurrecting characters). In Oda's defense, his fakeout deaths do not resurrect characters because they never died in the first place.
I see your point with these fake out deaths and how they hurt the reread ability and makes death scenes less impactful, but I'm fine with Saul being alive and i wouldn't put him with the likes of Pell or Kinemon, and Robin backstory isn't less tragic because of Saul being alive a person she only met for a few days.
A false death with no “milking” is obvious and hollow. If you’re going to fake a death, it should either be immediately outed like doflamingo or enel, or seem like a real death. Otherwise, there is no point in faking it.
I hate it so much. There are so many fake deaths, and so many characters that should have died but didn't. And the biggest problem is that no one is critising Oda, and that's why it keeps happening. The one piece tards just think that every chapter is 10/10, and that's why nothing will change because Oda never hear any ciritism.
I legitimately hardly believe any death in OP at this stage. Even though Pedro blew up and they buried Yasui. I hardly let myself feel the emotion of those deaths. Because who knows.
Everyone forget the worst fake out death , paragaya Conis dad was just some normal old man but somehow he survived enel attack that was always meant as a death penalty To this day I don't understand why oda did that ??
I think the answer is simple especially with Pell's and Pagaya's fakeout deaths, two of the most egregious in the series. Oda loves his characters and his happy endings.
The absolute worst part about Saul dying is that it gives a small chance... for even Pedro to be alive now... That's the level to which fake death can ruin the series
@@hakkbak Pedro literally exploded point blank, using his own dynamites. Saul was frozen, which we know from seeing Aokiji's powers can be thawed out. Literally two different "death" scenes. See what happens when you paint fakeout deaths and actual deaths with a broad stroke?
The real problem with these fake out deaths is that I need to wait at least 50 chapters to make sure it's real, and then the feeling is just gone. I can't take deaths seriously at this point in one piece just like dragon ball. God forbid that Oda sticks to the stacks.
Hey great video. Agree with everything. I still feel a difference with Saul. - Firstly, we are meant to be feel like and with Robin. - She believed he's death and we believed he's dead and we moved on.... Only to the emotions come running back to us (Readers and Robin). - I immediately, went back and read Ennies lobby to be washed over with as a sort of relief... Like you'd feel with a real loved one. It even makes me excited about Robin going and telling Saul that she found her people. - And it also moves the plot forward significantly... The worst was.... Pound (The only man to really die in One piece, because he will not be remembered to whatever... It's a very beautiful message too that was wasted. For nothing.) Kinemon amd Kiku to... Again for What???😐
I don’t think Saul surviving takes away any of the emotional weight in Robins backstory. She still had to go 30 years without anybody she could trust and still living with the PTSD of everyone she cared about dying in front of her. Even if he is alive it doesn’t remove all of the hardships she went though and how his “death” affected her at the time it happened. The only thing it does in my opinion is give her a small fragment of happiness that she thought was lost forever a long time ago, which to me is really sweet.
Ok. Corazon being alive doesn't take away all the bad things Law experienced before. Let's have him back as well. Hiluluk being alive now won't erase the trauma chopper went through. Let's get him back as well. Bellemere being alive won't remove all the trauma and suffering Nami went through in fishman's hands. We can get her back as well. 😂😂😂 Are you dumb? Or just pretending to be dumb?
@@HopefulNihilist OP fandom is a braindead cult at this point. Even if Ace revives next chapter, I can bet with all my money that half the fandom will defend it as a good decision 😂🤣
@@HopefulNihilist bro the fandom is actually scary, I mean this literally. Oda can say the one piece is a tv box from the future and the fanbase will defend it "it's so fitting, if you didn't see this coming then you weren't paying attention" "tbh it doesn't take anything away from the journey, the one piece was supposed to be silly, even Roger laughed" "it's supposed to make us laugh, you are an edge Lord" bro it's like a cult.
Just finished the video. First of all, great video as always. I'm glad that your against the whole "It's not a plot hole so it's okay!!!" take because that's not a good take lmao. Like if there was a panel of Pell putting on a bomb proof vest or something in the background, that wouldn't immediately make his fake out ok. And I definitely agree with what you said about the fact that Kinemon, Pell, Pound, Kiku, etc were all flase death scenes because of how milked they were. But Saul is different. Saul was a character that we cared about through Robin. This may just be me, but I didn't cry when Saul got frozen, I cried when Robin sat in her ship and Sobbed while desperately trying to do his laugh. Like if your friends dad died or something (morbid example, I know) and you see them crying at the funeral, you feel hurt in your own heart from their pain, not so much for your own connection to that person. Moving on to another point, the other false death scenes were done terribly. Pell saying "is that my grave?!?!?!", Kinemon farting, and Pound being in a cover story were all terrible ways to do it. Especially since those characters will never be relevant again. But seeing Robin in this chapter really hit different, and this reveal was the absolute perfect way to do it. Robin has always been cold, and almost heartless. She couldn't really bring herself to laugh in desperate times like Saul told her to. Now, we're going to see her character go under extreme development from Egghead to Elbaf, and that's why I think that this is going to be the best choice. Saul can't be compared to Pell or Pound for this reason, his relevance and potential in the story is too much, and it's already showing positive effects. If Fisher Tiger showed up again, that would ruin Jimbei's motivation as well as the threat of racism in One Piece. If Ace showed up, Luffy's entire character arc would be destroyed because he never had that failure to push him to get stronger. But Robin had Clover and Olivia to push her towards her dreams, and Saul's death just crushed her spirit. Now, we're going to see her spirits lift again. I'm willing to debate this
I do remember tearing up a bit with Luffy and Ace’s reaction to Sabo well after I knew Sabo was alive and yeah the derereshishishi stuff is still pretty sad, but still I don’t know still don’t feel Saul being alive adds much to the story I guess besides being the man kid mentioned which would make sense.
@@ew275x yes, my argument is largely based on the assumption Saul will be extremely relevant due to his connections to Elbaf, Vegapunk, Aokiji, and Robin. Maybe even the man marked by flames. But if not, I take defeat for this
I disagree about fisher tiger and ace it’s a false equivalency they actively died on screen we saw them die and there wasn’t a way for them to reasonably survive and it being confirmed it’s not the same as saul whose death wasn’t confirmed he was frozen we just assumed
I think you're right, and I also think you have the best view on storytelling in terms of One Piece content creators. It doesn't matter if there was something suttle put in place just in case, like a "ice time capsule". What matters is that Saul's "death" will always be fake now, regardless of if the watcher is new or returning.
I disagree about Saul. That flashback is written mostly for us to have the same beliefs and emotions as Robin, which is necessary to sell her tragedy. She believed Saul was dead, and the narrative now came full circle. The rest of Robin's family, the rest of the archeologists are gone. It's still earned for me, it was what Robin believed and Robin's story hasn't lost anything. It's still incredibly sad, it's still what an 8 year old Robin believed, that trauma isn't erased or cheapened.
İt did. 10 year old believed Corazon died and experienced tons of trauma as well. Now if Corazon is back, it is ok too? Chopper as a child had trauma he was disliked by all humans and races and he truly believed Hiluluk died. So no if Hiluluk is back, nothing emotionally will be lost? You can apply this to all flashbacks, I advise you to use your brain more often😂
@@fy4072 the differences are that in robin’s backstory 3 ( more if you count all the scholars) important figures died. Clover, Olivia and Saul. One of them being alive, especially saul ( becouse it actually makes sense) doesn’t nullify the sadness of her story. The thing that im really mad about is Oda reviving other characters. Kinemon and Pell should have totally died. Him reving these characters made this fake out death meaningless in a lot of readers eyes. If he killed these characters, Saul surving would have been Soooooo more impactful.
@@heysalve9753 Law's father, mother, sister, all his friends and his country died as well. İt is the same situation. İf you are ok with Saul being alive doesn't reduce the flashback. Than Corazon hanging around on a summer island being alive shouldn't also effect the flashback. 🤣
@@heysalve9753 and? Robin saw her mother for the first time that day. and had like half a chapter along with archeologs before dying. Screentime doesn't matter. Point is Law suffered as much as Robin before Corazon's sacrifice. Many important people died. Corazon's sacrifice to Law is similar to Saul's sacrifice. By saying Saul's sacrifice being in vain is ok. You are also saying if Corazon is back it is ok as well. Which is BS. Robin's mother and archeologs dying doesn't validate making Saul's sacrifice a joke.
I really enjoyed the video! I think people should focus on Morj’s main argument that the story retroactively becomes weaker as a result of miracle false deaths. Morj is right in that fake outs are written as true death scenes which is why readers can forgive fake outs, but when a writer writes a false death scene the way they do a real death scene and readers read the false death scene as a real death scene then there is definite whiplash and resentment at being emotionally manipulated Personally, unlike Morj, I can still read and enjoy the Pell and Saul death scenes, but similar to Morj, I do mourn the what could’ve beens. If Pell or Saul died, those deaths would’ve definitely cemented their spot as some of the greatest character deaths and best written death scenes ever. Unfortunately, i doubt people will be using Pell or Saul’s death as a lesson in writing good death scenes even though when the chapters were released those chapters were the best examples of effective death scenes Readers definitely lost something. I can still enjoy my rereads but I understand if others cannot
"I think people should focus on Morj’s main argument that the story retroactively becomes weaker as a result of miracle false deaths." I mean, yes, there's a resounding agreement to that argument in this entire thread. However, if that's all there is to it as to why he thinks Saul's survival is not worth it then Morj is simply being tunnel-visioned and he chooses to live in the past.
@@cavendish2925 or you could say he’s thinking I’ve rather bigger picture. For some, one piece on reread will suffer with Saul being alive just like how Pell dying weakened the story. Pell hasn’t done anything useful in the story yet and although that fate seems unlikely Saul, you can see why people like Morj would worry. If Pell being alive ended up not doing much for the story and just served to weaken the tragedy of Arabist’s in return for a slightly happier ending, then Saul being alive won’t sour Robin’s flashback without giving anything substantial in return. Again, I don’t agree with this, but I try to see how other people’s perspectives and honestly their perspectives are valid.
@@bobbytran3878 Morj being completely hung up on Saul's death and not on his parting words to Robin is the exact opposite of looking at the bigger picture, my guy. You could literally change Saul's fate in the flashback from "dying" to "getting imprisoned at Impel Down" and nothing will change about the impact of his words to Robin. What drove Robin to continue living was not Saul's death, it was his "final words" - for she lost not only Saul but most importantly everyone dear to her and everything in Ohara. We can talk all day about the loss of emotional impacts of these characters' deaths upon reread but the main issue here is that Morj in this video is disappointingly simply lumping in Saul's death with other fakeout deaths in the series and is strongly refusing to see why his fakeout death is unlike the others because, again, he's not looking at the bigger picture.
@@cavendish2925 @cavendish2925 the "impact" of Saul's lesson is NOT the main thing being retroactively weakened. It's the tragedy of Robin's backstory. Yes, being imprisoned in impel down is terrible but that's very different from being killed in front of your eyes. Also, again, let's use Pell as an example. Some readers may still be hung up on Pell's "death" but that doesnt meant they dislike arabasta as an arc or one piece as a story, Just bc readers recognize or feel that pell's "death" weakened the tragedy of Pell's amazing "death" scene doesnt mean readers r forever hung up by a single chapter and cant enjoy the rest of the story. Morj, and other readers, can not like this new development. They have good reasons to justify their personal experience. We don't know what Saul will do here on out so we cant say for sure but a lot of readers dont want another Pell and i think there's a lot of valid reasons for that worry. Readers can be both sour at saul being alive and excited that he may add to the story. it doesnt change the fact that, since we have pell as an example, Saul's new development may be concerning
@@bobbytran3878 Again, this is why I find the comparisons terrible because Saul is a unique case. You literally can't compare Saul's survival to any other significant flashback character or present-day character fakeout deaths because of the circumstances surrounding Robin's life. If Saul doesn't have any more purpose other than the already revealed fact that he lead the giants to salvage the books and he's now serving as the librarian of Ohara in Elbaph, then those are more than enough justification because the primary emotional weight of him being alive anyway lies on the fact that Robin now has someone to come home to at the end of the series just like the rest of the Strawhats and that it turned out that Robin didn't lose everyone in Ohara - she still has her friend Saul. It all ties in beautifully with the chapter's name "the will of Ohara."
well with saul, i feel like you can still have that moment. pretty much all of the tragedy of that scene was about robin losing everything she knew and loved and she still did. relatively, she only just met saul and he was mostly someone who was there to show her some new perspectives to set her up for whats to come. the emotional weight of that scene still hits just as hard for me because the tragedy is still 100% there even if you completely take saul out. pelle is completely different because the entire emotional weight of that scene was on him.
No matter how you shake it you can't convince me that the tragedy of Robin losing her Mother and her island line isn't enough of a tragedy and Saul's death makes or breaks the flashback. From what you described the death wasn't a plot hole and makes sense so it doesn't hurt the story. The problem to you is that the fake out death was too convincing? Isn't that the point. If fake out death isn't convincing doesn't it make it less impactful?
I look at it from the perspective of the characters within the story instead of how it makes me feel. Sure looking back at Robin’s backstory won’t be so tragic anymore, but it brings a new dimension to Robin as a character. So now when I revisit Robin’s backstory, I can see it in a new light. I now feel a sense of joy in the midst of tragedy for Robin because I know that this incident helped her find the SH who have helped her through her dark times while also understanding that she not only found something new but also something that was lost. I think it’s a beautiful closure for Robin. Not to mention it finally will address the question of why Saul is a D clan-a question I’ve had for ages seeing as to how Saul just “died” like that.
Then let's bring back Bellemere, Dr. Hiluluk and Corazon while we're at it. How it makes us readers feels isn't important right? What the characters within the story feel is much more important, right??? Might as well bring Sora back and have her renuite with Sanji, I'm sure it will be a beautiful close for him.
@@HyakuJuu01300 You make a great point, but with Corazon, his death was set up for Law’s vendetta against Doffy. Dr. Hiriluk’s death was supposed to push forth the theme of someone dying only when they are forgotten. So those two it doesn’t make sense thematically to have them still be alive. Bellemere is a tough one to argue against your point but the theme is sort of family, and Nami got that with the straw hats, seems a bit redundant to have her back with Nami for the whole. Sora’s sacrifice has to do with Sanji being human, and having her back would make this theme weaker since part of being human is losing people you love. Robin’s however is regarding loneliness, and having Saul back is indeed playing into this theme. Someone who felt like she’s lost everything and alone in this world finds company in the new and in what she thought she lost. With that being said, the main reason why I like Saul being back is cuz I just never understood why he was a D clan. Now we will know. And much like Morj and you, I would have liked him to stay dead, IF AND ONLY IF he wasn’t a D Clan.
Agreed I feel like morj should've touched on what was gained and not solely what was lost because there is a lot of benefits to saul being alive than him just staying dead.
A key difference for me between Fisher Tiger and Saul is that Fisher Tiger's death is essential to the choices of Jimbe, Arlong, the Royal Family, and Hordy Jones. Whereas Saul dying was always less important to me than Robin's emotional reality and his final words to her. It was more about her learning to "Trust in Luffy" than it was losing a dear friend. It was the life she experienced after the tragedy of Ohara. And Ohara is still a tragedy, even if Saul is not.
I don't know yet if I can agree or disagree with you. While I really like your examples with Fisher Tiger, Noland and Ace, I also think that something was always wrong with Saul's death scene. I didn't think he'd survive, like you said, most people agreed he was dead, but his death always struck me as weird. "Time can heal all wounds." I guess this saying can apply to this moment, because yes, that scene 700 chapters ago will be viewed differently from now on, but at the same moment, that doesn't have to be a bad thing. Will you also gloss over explanations about the gomu-gomu no mi just because that knowledge is invalid now? When you talk about re-reads, things tend to get iffy, because you can't just pick one aspect of it, (Death Scenes) and say, they get worse with added knowledge. There's also emotions involved with fights like Luffy vs Rob Lucci, but does this fight get worse, just because we know, that Luffy defeats him? Or do all previous encounters with Yonkou and Admirals get worse now that we know, that Luffy will be able do beat them now? A re-read will get other emotions out of you, but this is the important part. You can never feel the exact emotions twice while reading the same scene, so it's way better to get completely different emotions the second, and third, and fourth, and so on....times around. I've read this story many times, like you have and after big turning points, things change on a re-read. This is why this extremely long story still is fun to re-read. Saul needed a Death scene, so that the community could move on. Think about the other side of the coin, Oda setting up a more obvious chekhov's gun with making Saul's death just a "Death Fakeout", like you call it. People would wait for some sort of payoff for hundreds of chapters, growing tired of a moment that obviously was setting up things and wasn't talked about for ever. And then, after people already didn't care about that moment anymore, that payoff would finally come. There is a moment in My hero academia that does exactly this (Traitor), where everyone was already tired of it when it finally got revealed. So Saul needed to be "laid to rest", completely out of our mind. BUT....I'm also completely agreeing with many of your points. The one thing that always makes me mad with One piece are these completely unnecessary fake deaths. And I'm sure there would be no problem with Saul's death, which probably was always intended to be "fake", if things like "characters with no more agency in the story being brought back" wasn't a recurring theme in the story. Pell was brought back for absolutely no reason, so was Pound. Pagaya's fake death only made Enel look like a joke, can't even kill of an old man. Kin'emon and Kiku were just weird fakeouts while nobody believed Ashura and Izo were really dead until confirmation. This always makes us suspicious about deaths to the point were I wouldn't believe that Ace was dead until after it was too late to feel anything about his death. Those things doesn't apply to Saul for me. Most of those fakeouts were for characters that will never be relevant again, bringing Saul back as well as his relevancy makes for a pretty hype moment, even if it transforms our thinking about Robin's backstory. But instead of glossing over that moment, on the next re-read I will search for hints, look on how this moment changes everything in the future and while not getting sad about it, I will instead be really intrigued by that level of foreshadowing.
"I also think that something was always wrong with Saul's death scene" Possible reasons you're probably thinking: 1) "Ice Time Capsule"; 2) He's a D; 3) Aokiji (and him being a close friend of Saul).
This is the main reason i dropped One Piece. One of my biggest pet peeves in stories are when no character dies, when they should've. Especially for a battle series with lots of life and death scenarios. There's no tension, so i can't get myself to be invested. Have thought about picking up One Piece again, but this is really holding me back from giving it a second chance. Why even have fights between life and death when everyone survives anyway?
Pell surviving kinda undercuts Luffy's brutal reality check toward Vivi that people die in war.
@@kingflockthewarrior202 ironically he lost ace a few months later
@@truffle6082 luffy: people die at war!
vivi: *uno reverse card*
@@drivforc7867
My first thought when that scene happen .
literally
People die when they are killed.
If fake deaths weren't so common in the manga the reveal of Saul being alive would have been amazing with a great emotional weight. If this was the exception and not the rule for characters "dying" then imagine how nice it would have been to know Robin had a person from her past, still alive, with a possibility of a reunion in the near future.
Exactly. If Saul had been the only major fake-out-death, than this moment would've been incredibly powerful. It's literally decades later and Robins backstory is a fan-favorite for a reason. But after an avalanche of these "deaths" this moment has been cheapened, if not ruined.
It would’ve been a "Raizo is alive" type of moment.
yep 100% agree...he has done it so much that even the ones that makes sense and acceptable like saul still leave a bad taste in your mouth....
thats honestly my problem . if that only happened a few times i wouldn't mind but because i read Wano an arc full of fake-out deaths, i was pissed when he was revealed to be alive at first
@@mimiix935 nop
It makes us not trust the tension and stakes in arcs. Wano could’ve been a ridiculously better arc if Kinemon and a lot of the nine died on screen. Asura and Izo’s death were off screened and weren’t done well at all. We all know now that if someone is critically injured that someone will save them and no consequences will be had. Luffy is my favorite character in the series, but after Ace’s death you’d think he’d try to have everyone not be in such situations. I understand fighting the Yonkos was coming, but not having the strength at the time to wage war in it was so ugh. Oda doesn’t have the Strawhats understand their actions have meaningfully weight and I don’t understand why. Look at Kid, he went through the different Yonkos losing an arm, having Killer being feed a Smile Fruit and other things. Oda is capable of having Luffy’s rivals end up in the same place as him while not being as blessed. Oda could’ve definitely had Luffy experience consequences but didn’t. If Kinemon had died that would’ve hit Luffy to understand things about his actions. We all know Kaido kills, I just don’t understand why couldn’t Oda have him kill important characters that can make the story so much better. Udon Prison could’ve been another heavy tension moment to, but it was just fodder for Luffy to practice. Not even having Kidd practice when he fought Kaido didn’t make any sense to. Saul being alive would’ve hit greatly if Oda didn’t fake us out with those “deaths” in the past. Pell, the nine, Pound all of them would’ve made this moment even better to have Robin experience someone from her life alive. But that’s isn’t the case, due to all the people before him surviving and not having the Strawhats understand death consequences.
This is absolutely correct and it really hurts Oda’s writing tbh. If there is no consequences to the actions of the characters, then there can’t be any stakes.
Even now, I find myself in disbelief concerning the events that happened in Lulucia Kingdom. If the endgame for the story is near, Oda needs to start hammering in on stakes and consequences
Excellent comment, it’s so sad really…
I gotta say as much as i loved one piece post timeskip is overall extremely disappointing to what we expected
It's so simple, if you're not willing to kill a character, don't put them in situations whereby their survival would seem like extreme luck or an actual miracle. On top of that, don't milk the emotional impact of that fake death FOR YEARS, only to reverse it later. That is Soap Opera levels of writing; this is supposed to be a masterpiece
Disagree. Oda should milk death scene even if he not going to kill character. It sells the unpredictability more. I dont want it to be obvious
If Saul was the only example of a character seemingly unambiguously dying and then turning out to be alive later, I think I might be okay with it. But honestly, with Oda pulling this trick so many times throughout the story, I just can't help but feel similarly to you, Morj. When I first saw Pell's "death" I was taken completely aback, but now I literally laugh whenever I reread that part of the story, because I know that he survived what was effectively a nuclear explosion at point blank with just a couple scars, and there's no way that that's not hilarious to me.
I disagree with the claim that sauls death was an example of a character unambiguous dying it was assumed he was frozen by aokiji his friend surrounded by fire which would melt it
Ice Time Capsule 🧊. Don't be mad cuz you didn't see it back then lol
The doctor literally said, "Make sure you do plenty of pushups and sit ups and drink lots of juice."
@@panafricanismisascam5201 Facts. This literally sums up all the ppl that are upset about Saul survivor.
@@panafricanismisascam5201 He used both Ice capsule and ice time tho
Bon Clay’s death would have been the most gut wrenching one out of all of them…..Having a character who was the silliest and not much of an important affiliate of the MC take on such a dramatic role when the MC was alone and at their most dire situation (especially in hell itself - Impel Down) would have been icing on the cake. Sure, the audience yearns for hope and a happy ending. But Bon Clay would have been immortalized similar to Whitebeard if the death had occurred
I believe Mr. 2 living was fine as Magellan as the warden wasn't supposed to kill him but to subdue him and throw him down to the lowest levels, it's not just job to kill
I actually think it's fine, his words were not a final sendoff, but more-so for the immense sacrifice that was made. As far as we know, Bon-Chan may never leave Impell Down.
Bon Clay was sacrificing his opportunity to escape and closing himself off to a life of torture and punishment so Luffy could save his brother and escape.
He never intended to die, he intended to allow Luffy to escape and to save Ace.
I mean Mr 2. sacrificed himself, but why would he have died though? He was very powerful he was the number 2 in Crocodiles entire organization and skilled at hand 2 hand. Also think about Magellan’s character was he murderous?
@@evelynphore7635 We saw him kill so many that was trying to leave with his poison and venom. I think it's reasonable to think that he'd show no mercy to the guy who allowed the biggest breakout in inpel down history to become a success
Thats another one i forgot about yeah but hes the leader of that secret queendom now
I'm not mad at Saul surviving. What I'm mad at is Kinemon and Pell.
O knew kinemons talking farts would come back at some point the first time I saw it. I was not disappointed 🤣😂🤣
It's not that I'm mad about fake deaths, but that those 2 arcs were about war, leadership and sacrifice. Wano and alabasta needed those 2 deaths in particular to keep the theme of those arcs consistent. Rest of them, i don't care. If i could change anything about one piece, it would be only those 2 fake deaths.
facts
Yeah It's the books being saved that makes much less sense. In hindsight, Saul surviving looks to have been intended since the beginning so It will probably be integral to his character and Robin's, and the story in general.
Despite that, after so many fake deaths it's normal for Saul surviving to leave a bitter taste. I too don't know how to feel about It.
The stuff about the books Is terrible though, Oda can't even kill books lmao. Anyway I think It detracts from Robin's story
It's just sad that such a good scene will never hit the same way
I so agree, Wano is a great example of this all, Kinemon and Kiku both got amazing and well written death scenes which turned out to be fake, whereas the scabbards that did die had subpar ones like did anyone else actually think Ashuras death scene was his actual death
exactly this entire video encapsulates why i am so bored of this manga, after reading asuras death i was waiting for him to reappear because it was so sudden and badly written that it didnt feel like a genuine death
@@sonzak9179 go write your own if you are so done 😂🤡
@@LathropLdST There's always somebody saying this dumb shit anytime they hear valid criticism.
@@LathropLdST This isn't the appropriate response to someone rightfully venting. Oda himself isn't going to pat you on the back for this.
@@sonzak9179 some fake out deaths made you bored of the series 1000 chapters in
Fisher tiger example had me cackling. But couldn’t agree more. It’s especially tough seeing other modern shonen fully embrace the power for tragedy, and Oda being so oddly selective when he does so.
Oda also hinges so much of his tension on the prospect of death these days. And especially with the Saul reveal, we have no little reason to believe that he’ll follow through any death from the most minor to major character defining deaths.
I mean go watch a Pokémon battle from the latest series. You can have tension in shonen without the threat of death. It’s so weird to me that Oda has this love for the drama of tragedy but almost none of the ability to follow through.
Yup, sports series don’t rely on characters dying most of the time to create tension. You can still do tragedy and Oda has done it before, like with Kuro it makes you feel sad for Kaya and Merry they were betrayed and put their trust in the wrong person even if Merry also survives some nasty injuries, Shushu has his owner’s shop that he was guarding burn down.
I mean Oda doesn’t have to dangled death as the consequence for everything but he keeps doing it.
I’m not going to lie Ash is a cheater
@@somerandomguy7325 I still am waiting for the day Pedro comes back. I'm never 100% believing he's dead until Oda stops anything to do with One Piece as a franchise lol
it was so funny lmao
It's not weird for me that he treats death so weird because in some of his quotes he's stated he does things a certain way because at the end of the day this is for children. I think in Odas mind he can have all types of messed up stuff happen and kids can handle it but Death will mess them up. So he avoids it as much as possible. However he is frankly lazy with how he avoids the deaths, basically has it happen and then say "they survived it somehow".
Totally agree man. It rings so hallow. The fact that we’ve gotten to a point where fully fleshed out death scenes like Pedro’s can be doubted just proves the point
Agreed! Pell's Death scene in Alabasta was very emotional for me.
Now upon re-watching it again, I will never feel any emotion towards that scene,
because Oda gave me a false promise of ending a character, meaning he basically trolled me! And I hate it!
This kind of video is the reason why you're the only One Piece RUclipsr I watch. You're someone who enjoys the series and will praise One Piece for the many things it does well while also not being afraid to point out flaws in the story when they arise. It's a shame the greater community knows nothing about story telling mechanics, and this video is likely going to be seen as a One Piece hate video by most of them. Still, huge W for continuing to make these kinds of videos that promote actual discussion instead of hype and clickbait videos like a lot of the other One Piece RUclipsrs.
There is some sense of "immaturity" with the way they consume the media.
I agree. While I've only watched up to Enies Lobby(as of this reply, because Netflix has yet to add the other arcs),
I can say with confidence that One Piece as a whole, is not perfect.
Yes, there are some great moments, but at the same time, there's a lot of nonsensical stuff.(Ex: the fake out deaths)
I should add that Pell not dying weakens Crocodile's plan. As far as I recall, Crocodile was going to detonate a bomb with a 5 km radius in 30 minutes in the city square during a civil war. Would some people survive? Sure. But a lot of people would die. But by making Pell survive, it retroactively lowered the stakes, because if one person can take the full explosion point blank, then take a massive fall and survive, it makes me think the bomb wasn't that powerful to begin with.
The way Oda treats character deaths is why I can never feel any tension in arcs anymore. I know nothing bad will happen so I'm just enjoying the world building and reveals more than any battles. I was surprised with the few deaths we had on Wano but literally felt nothing just because I didn't believe it until it was confirmed. He chose his path and doesn't feel any shame in it obviously since he is writing the story he wants to write. I don't feel bad for hating it either and considering it a failure on Oda's part.
Same. I enjoy One Piece, it’s a great show. However, I can’t stop perceiving it as a happy-go-lucky story (which is fine as the story is a romance). The final war arc will not feel tense at all for most readers.
I think this right here might contribute to my personal feelings. I heard that some people cried when Robin found out that Saul was alive and I felt something too, but I generally feel emotionally detached from anything dramatic in One Piece
Yes Oda should just die
@@jasonfanclub4267 Aside from how edgy this comment is, we all know that it would just be a fake out
wait for op d rider to say “YoU are jUst tOo edGy and WanT a AoT deAth”
Imagine a boy dating a girl. He makes all the moves to make her fall for him. Taking her out for dinner, spending time travelling etc. And she did fall for him eventually. But then when the time comes to make the relationship finally official, the boy backs out and says that it wasn't his intention. He just wants the girl to fall for her but not want to follow through, leaving the girl dumbfounded. That's the analogy for what Oda is doing.
I get that Oda really doesn't like killing off characters, and tries to avoid it.
But no one is forcing him to keep making it LOOK like people die.
I like how you explained the "false" death scene, and this is what i hate about finding out that Saul is alive. If we find out that Pedro is alive, then I can't trust a death scene in one piece anymore.
i fr thought pedro was gonna be another fake death and just glossed over it thinking he was gonna be okay
The fact that you can still trust a death scene this far into the series actually surprises me ngl (no this is not ment to sound like an attack)
His death was completely ruined... i have not seen a single person who took his death seriously at that moment and that is the exact proof for how bad the situation realy is.
You explained the feelings i had about this practice in a way that i didn't even realise i had. Thank you
So you admit that most of yall aren't even smart enough to articulate your points and just go off of feelings? Typical anime fans lol
@@panafricanismisascam5201 that's why he has this channel and i am on the comment section
@@panafricanismisascam5201 why are u trying to debate him? Who cares
@@panafricanismisascam5201 toxic
@@panafricanismisascam5201 bro chill
-Retconed Robins backstory
-cheapened the tragedy of Sauls fate
-Robin was supposed to carry the will of Ohara, but i guess not really, which makes her character even more useless
-makes the WG look even more incompetent and less of a threat than it already was
I wouldn't be surprised at this point if Yasuie was alive
That's just an Usopp lie coming true to add onto the pile.
@@weathermangohanssj4 The toad oil was just delayed when Toko used it! It actually healed Yasuie off-screen!
@@rhondahoward8025 I wouldn't be surpried after that '' Law-Dono cut me at the exact same spot OMG'' 😂😂
Or Oden
@@LathropLdST Oden and Ace will come back as haki ghosts because their willpower was so strong
Death has always been Oda’s biggest weakness. It really sucks because death is such a ginormous aspect in the story. It’s the greatest weapon that any author can use against their readers.
It truly is his greatest weakness. So strange he does this
i wouldn't say death is a ginormous aspect in one piece's story. its like saying comedy is a ginormous aspect in game of thrones story. in my perspective at least.
@@MegaDragonmark this is a dumb answer.. game of thrones isn't about comedy.. with a anime surrounding a pirate theme.. why is death so uncommon.. if anything death should be every other chapter ..fighting and death should be main stay in a pirate themed anime
@@LordblackGaming that was the point of that game of thrones comparison. one piece is light hearted story that may or may not feed you a death of a character. it is about the adventure. saying death rules over it is a dumb thing to think. when it shows the exact opposite the main character and most of the D clan do not fear it.
plus look at game of thrones that had many deaths in that and people hate how it ended. death is not great. its cheep.
@@MegaDragonmark it's bittersweet.. because it kinda feels weird now after the Saul stunt.. ima watch to see wat happens..now it feels like everyone who died is possibly alive somehow u know..
I wouldn't have minded Saul surviving if it weren't for all the other fake out deaths that served no purpose other than to baby the audience. Bon Clay, Pell, Kinemon, Lola's dad. Fake out deaths like Igaram and Saul actually make sense given the context of the characters and the situation surrounding them.
I think this especially plays into Izo and Ashura's deaths offscreen. They were written in the way Oda would write a fake out death, but were intended to be legitimate death scenes. I still can't shake that I'm happy to know Saul is alive, can't really tell you why, but I definitely see the point being made here and can definitely acknowledge it in the sense that I do feel a little more critical about this reveal now, even if it's not enough to really spoil it for me personally
Yup. My biggest problem with all these fake out deaths is that we don’t know when real deaths will happen. The impact of ashura and izos deaths were nonexistent because most readers just assumed they weren’t dead because Oda never kills characters.
Agreed you can really tell izou and ashura doji died just to have a character death. There were little hints that they were willing to die in the raid but even so they never got the care of a death scene like a kinemon or pell. I feel like you might be happy that saul is alive because of the insane pay off it could have if the moment of his reunion with robin is executed right, we lost the powerful moment of his "Death scene" but gained a powerful moment of two characters moving on from a traumatic moment now being able to confide in each other.
I think its why everyone was amazed they even died, nobody even realized it and Asura really seemed like he would come back. I mean Pell came back after surviving a bomb that was million times worse and Izo only looked hurt from an off screen fight
i dont understand why a couple of people keep saying ashura's death was offscreen, it was absolutely not. the scabbards even reacted in that moment like he actually died.
@@genep9302 yeah, I get Izo, but tbh I was always one of the people saying Ashura was dead, that moment actually felt final for him. Kin I didn't believe because 2 pages at the start of the chapter didn't feel enough for a character we knew for half the story. Saul........I'm conflicted because I agree with Morj but I feel him being alive has story potential, but let's see how it goes.
Don’t worry Sanji, Sora didn’t die, she was brought back to life by Vegapunk who was assisted by Dr Hiriluk, who also faked his death and was sent to Egghead island by a ship Tom made, who also survived
Oh and Bell-mere was really sent to a dungeon, that wasn’t a 4Kids error
At this point, yeah, why not? Even better, make Kaido awaken his devil fruit to become a grant-wishing dragon, so that then everybody can wish every person that actually died to be resurrected.
@@Yoseqlo1 😂
@@Yoseqlo1 Cynicism to the point of delusion and eventually mindlessness. Good luck with that.
@@cavendish2925 Hey, what you said have made me think about my way of expressing my hyperbole. I will be more insightful in the future. Thanks for your support!
@@Yoseqlo1 Yeah. Also your hyperbole up there completely sucked anyway, because you're poking fun at the idea of Oda resurrecting dead characters ala Dragonball, when the guy has said on record in one of his interviews that he hates the revival/resurrection of dead characters. Hate his fakeout deaths, but sure enough the guy kept his word. His "dead" characters "survived" fake, implied deaths, never actually dying and then reviving (examples being Ace, Whitebeard, Oden, Bellemere, Hiruluk, Corazon, just to name a few, firmly established dead characters whose only way of coming back into the story is actual revival via a resurrecting technique).
Kinemon's death and return drives mad. That was such a great death at the hands of a Yonko
he was also saving momo and shinobu, that would have 100% died if he didnt step up
that would have so much meaning, all for it to be wasted for a useless fake death
@@chaos5840 and the reason for him surviving was that somehow law didn't reattached his body well lol. What a mess Oda did right there.
İt made Kaido look like a 🤡 as well. İmagine you are a yonkou but not able to damage or hurt anybody.
Kaido is just a stronger Hody Jones😂
and he off screen him meeting otsuru. So like whats the point.
@@fy4072 exactly. It made kaido look terrible. Throughout the entire war he wasn’t able to kill a single person. He couldn’t kill the scabbards, the supernovas, orochi, hell he couldn’t even kill the cp0 guy who got in the way of his fight with luffy. It sucks cause kaido was so hype pre onigashima. But the way Oda chose to write him during onigashima was disappointing.
Like bruh, akainu one tapped ace. ACE!!! Who is for sure stronger than all the scabbards. The fact that kaido couldn’t kill a single character is beyond disappointing.
What annoying is when people try to defend it by saying “well the character though they were gonna die so it’s still just as good.”
Like what? That’s like saying “Oh this fight between two friends is still super emotional even tho 1 of them was just a fake actor”
I feel like Saul isn't the best example to use for this, because his 'revival' can also repaint the meaning of Oharu as being there was always hope - people were always working behind the scenes to make sure the scope of a tragedy would not eclipse the value of their lives. With MOST of these fake deaths, when a character is shown to have not died, there's also no purpose to it; they're simply existing in a place, somewhere, doing something out of the scope of the main plot. A character dying in a book or movie doesn't necessarily mean nothing if they come back or recover, after all. It just depends on the context of the story, what that return meant and how the characters they left behind were impacted by it, in the moment. This is an issue in One Piece, but Saul still being alive is thematically appropriate for resisting the world government's attempts to destroy knowledge and hope.
Well said. Morj is not actually looking at the bigger picture of Saul's survival and is instead very emotionally attached to the past which hampers his take on the whole thing.
@@cavendish2925 With all the blunders that happened, especially during Wano, one should have the right to question if Oda still cares about those themes at this point to that degree.
Make the One Piece video already
But isn't that robin's point? She inherits the will of Ohara in regards to protecting knowledge from the government. Saul doesn't feel like bringing back something that was snuffed out, rather it's more like there's now a second person alive that was in Ohara and knows about the government's attempts to destroy knowledge directly.
@@justaway6901 ?
What do you mean when you said "Oda still cares about those themes?" That Oda no longer cares about the themes of his series because of... fakeout deaths? Since you mentioned Wano, what about Kinemon's and Kiku's fakeout deaths that have anything to do with destroying the themes of One Piece lol.
I disagree. Saul, unlike Kinemon, Pagaya, and ESPECIALLY Pell, is now actively controlling the narrative by being alive. He is drawing the protagonists to him like a magnet and in turn becoming one of the most influential characters yet. There is now a tanglible story purpose for going to Elbaf on a scale worthy of how hyped up this island has been for 20+ years.
The problem with Pell is that he has yet to do anything but be an extra in random Alabasta scenes. Contributing nothing. Saul is quite literally the librarian of Ohara now. And as someone who isn't originally from Ohara, him being alive doesn't change that Robin is still the last of Ohara.
Saul being alive is fake out done right. For once.
Saul feels different to me, and I think the reason is that it's actually being treated with narrative weight. The problem with Pell is that there's no reason to even bring him back; it's practically a footnote. The same happened with Pagaya. And Pound was revealed to be alive in a tangential cover story. The story gains nothing from them being alive. But Saul has three things going for him, three things that show me the story is actually able to justify revealing he's alive. Firstly, it actually had it be relevant to Robin as soon as it's revealed. Because if someone that important is alive, then the main characters should actually care about it! Secondly, it's setting up an obvious even greater emotional climax when they will get to reunite, further showing that this isn't just a random footnote that undoes something impactful, but is actually going to be explored. Finally, it's clearly implied that Saul went through a major character change due to this. Someone like Pell didn't change at all, but just went from being presumed dead to being actually alive. But Saul went from being someone who wanted to be distinguished from the violent giants of Elbaf to someone who worked alongside them, likely because he believed it was necessary. We all know scars symbolize trauma and personal significance in OP, and Saul is apparently covered in them. This tells us that the Saul we'll see will be a changed, possibly darker person, because of what happened. A lot of false deaths, like with Kin'emon, are treated so inconsequentially that they could practically be written out of the story. But Saul is set up for these experiences to actually matter to him. It's not like Oda shouldn't have written a death scene if he was going to bring him back, like with Kin'emon. There's a good chance that his story needed to have this, and while coming right off the chapter it's disappointing to lose the weight of Robin's backstory, this has actual potential as its own story.
Lol this comment is nonsensical. Robin and Saul reuniting will be nowhere near as emotionally climactic as the end of her flashback. It being revealed to Robin doesn’t make it better at all. Lastly saul is not a major character so wtf are you taking about “character change” as if he didn’t already switch sides and betray the marines when he saved robin. It already happened for him, and reviving him 700 chapter later to add character development would be even worse writing. You completely missed the point of the video
Agreed I feel like morj is right that the climax that is saul death is lost once you know he alive however I feel like he should've touched on that climax is now replaced with something as great or possibly even greater which is the payoff of saul words "you wont be alone in this world, you will find friends that you can trust". He also should've touched on robin trauma after saul death which isn't magically removed due to him being alive because she spent 20 years of her life with no friends or anyone she could trust meaning sauls words hasn't rung true yet which imo is apart of the tragedy of ohara. Without the straw hats she potentially would've died even before knowing saul is still out there which is a whole tragic moment within itself, because she trusted his words and found those friends she can now get to saul. Also, like you said this is a saul who is potentially changed because oda is hiding his design meaning whatever he had to do to survive had drastic consequences and he had to suck in his pride and work with the other giants of elbaf to continue the will of ohara.
@@TyandOnGoing highly unlikely the replacement will be greater. And what do you mean by the payoff of his words "you wont be alone in this world..." ? That payoff has already happened regardless of him surviving or not.
@@rinkusan978 wdym unlikely? There a reason why the majority of the fanbase is okay with saul being alive and that is because the reunion is going to be emotionally resonance as not only has robin achieved saul dream for her but she now can carry the will of ohara with the only friend who experienced the trauma with her. Saul is not from ohara but that makes it so her reunion can still be emotionally resonant without taking away the fact that robin is still the only survivor from ohara.
Sounds like a lot of conjecture about things that may never happen + overemphasizing like 1 panel of Robin wiping away a tear = cope seethe mald
Fake deaths or death scenes shouldn't be bad if we have two conditions: (1) they are very few and far between, and (2) the character being alive serves a purpose in the story. Pell's fake death is so bad not only because of the robbed tragedy, but because he doesn't do anything else forward, it feels like a boring happy ending for him. At least Saul would probably play a role in the story soon.
I agree with everything you've mentioned, but there's a tiny difference in why I'm not bothered in Saul's case.
For Pell and Pound, it was a chapter about them. We were meant to feel emotional for them and their sacrifices. For Saul, I think I was much more attached to Robin than Saul and the sad death scene for Saul hits me because I actually felt bad for Robin. It's a similar case to Ace, where we don't actually see much of him in the story and it's such an emotional scene because of Luffy's attachment to Ace, not mine. I'm emotionally invested in Luffy more than Ace, and I think it's similar here where I see it as an emotional Robin scene more than an emotional Saul scene, which makes the reveal and whole Robin being happy he's alive okay in my book.
I do see why it bothers some people though.
The way i see it, it also has to do with the nostalgia of tension. Readers want to be able to revisit high points of the story and relive the thrill. But i think the problem is that many readers including Morj unreasonably want to crystalize that tension without processing it at all or appreciating the relief of a survival/the followthru. Even if they are just characters in a story, it would sociopathic to look back at the climax of their trials and just laugh it off because of foreknowledge. Still a completely reasonable argument for its technicalities, but it's also pedantic. Sure it's not as tense, but knowing that a character survives should not diminish the significance of their decision to sacrifice themselves, even on a reread. If a good character survives, you should be relieved and happy. Pell can go on serving Alabastre, Pound can make up for lost time & be a grandfather, Kin'emon & Kiku can be defenders of their country & mentors to their fledgling lord, and Saul saved the Will of Ohara. That's just how you should process tension & survivals once they are revealed.
I'm just surprised Marco didn't seem to grieve over Izo's death, I wish wano had a better conclusion and didn't get rushed
@@kingflockthewarrior202 the awaken heal heal fruit that mansherry has will reincarnate dead people and every one who has ever died will come back to life. Readers all around the world will start chanting Goda and Chapter 1, Twitter will be swarmed with #peakfiction and literature as we know will never be the same again.
@@kingflockthewarrior202 how? I thought he and Ashura Dojii died?
@@zoulzopan Except that Oda stated he hates resurrecting dead characters.
Boring. Next please.
@@TonysStabindadark Yes, they're dead. The clown is just taking you for a spin.
@@TonysStabindadark
"F0ckin people only die when they are forgotten. No one is forgotten in One Piece so they can't literally die."
Dr. Hiruluk
Fakeout deaths wouldn't be so bad if Oda didn't do it 97% of the times.
Saul is the only one I feel was done well in the fakeout death train since I feel like he's the man marked by flames and seeing how happy Robin was to meet up with him again potentially with her friends showing off such great comrades plus the rest of them accomplished nothing if anything especially Pell and Pound that cover story still haunts me
In 500 chapters we’re gonna find out that Ace survived. And it’ll be totally okay because “Luffy suffered a lot to get there.”
That's literally not what most people like me who defend Saul's survival argue but if misrepresenting our arguments makes you feel better, go for it I guess.
Also comparing Saul to Ace is... very dumb, to put it mildly.
@@cavendish2925 Speak for yourself. There's plenty of fans who use that precise argument that "Robin suffered for those twenty years".
I personally don't mind Saul being alive and think that it's a pretty different scenario compared to Pell, Pagaya, kinemon, etc.
The emotions I feel during Robin's backstory come from the POV of Robin. Robin's family, the scholars, and villagers were all killed and the only other person that she could call a friend was taken from her. At the end of her backstory, Robin is alone in the world no matter what actually happened to Saul. Whether it's him dying, getting thrown in impel down, or surviving and going to Elbaf. Robin is a child that is alone in the world and cannot rely on anyone for help due to her bounty and reputation.
So?
Law lost his frineds, family and was soon to die due to sickness. And it was from Law's perspective.
Does this make Corazon's sacrifice less important?
LAw was all alone in the world no matter what happened to Corazon.
So let's bring Corazon back as well. I am sure Oda has a great explanation for it just like the Kinemon one 'Where he was cut at just the right place.'
😂😂😂
@@fy4072 Law and Corazon's relationship was much more developed that Robin and Saul. Corazon as a character alone is also much more beloved than Saul. It's a different case. Corazon's death also develops Law/Doflamingo dynamic which is a good focus in Dressrosa. Saul, overall, is one of three major characters in Robin's flashback that dies, so him being alive doesn't negate other things.
One thing that Morj doesn't mention in the video is the fate of the character after we found out he is alive. Pell being alive and then being irrelevant for all these chapters make me hate that death scene even more. But, with Saul, finding out that he is alive with Robin's reaction did make me feel happy. It makes me excited for Elbaf and Robin-Saul reunion. Saul is carrying the will of Ohara. There is a promise that Oda is making that Saul will be relevant in Elbaf arc. It's not just about "there is an out" that a lot of fans are positive about it compared to Pell.
@@fy4072 implying that both are one to one similarity when both the contexts and theme seem to contradict that incredibly
I agree but also think the scene has less emotional value now on a reread. My biggest gripe with the other fake deaths you mentioned is that the characters being alive now serve no real purpose to the story so why cheapen those scenes. Saul being alive will have some purpose and has already added some emotional value to the story from seeing Robin's reaction and will probably have more when they reunite. Like you said on a reread the scene will still have some weight to it as for most of Robin's life in the story it still effected her as a character.
@@deepEleven No it extremely similar.
Robin meets Saul when she was at her lowest and become friends.
Law meets Corazon when he was at it's lovest and became close.
Corazon sacrifices himself for Law and gives him hope.
Saul sacrifices himself for Robin and gives her hope.
Saul is indeed the third faction that died, because Robin's mom and archeologists also died.
Guess what? Law's parents and his friends and his whole country also died. So Corazon is like a fifth ro sixth faction that died 😂
As for Law's relationship being used in the narrative doesn't change anything at all. We are talking about the emotional impact on characters in the story. Not moving the plot.
So by your logic, if there is a logical explanation and it will move the plot forward Corazon being alive and doing stuff in current timeline is also ok for you?
😂
Extremely well articulated. I've been trying to explain this to people the last few days but most just don't get it. They are completely hung up on the "plausibility" of Saul coming back, and not how it affects us, the readers.
I kinda disagree given how Robin's reaction kinda makes me want to support that Saul is alive and that their is some hope for ohara
It's not that people don't get it but just don't want to admit it. Because in their minds, admitting that there is a shortcoming in a story they love is somehow invalidating their love and passion for it so they shut their ears and deflect
My issue is how oda pulls out all the narrative tension and weight of a death whilst also keeping the character alive, it’s completely having his cake and eating it. Love how well he sticks to logic and everything making sense but I can’t say I feel any real danger or tension when a character is about to die until it’s already to late most of the time in one piece
I don't even take any death scene seriously. I still expect Pedro to show up.
There is legit 0% death tension in this anime .. which means you will subconsciously take every fight as a comedy expecting nothing serious to happen because no one ever dies or even gets close ... so u don't feel any don't of threat..
@@LordblackGaming But its a masterpiece!
@@justaway6901 It is
Thanks. That is how I felt about Oda's use of fake out deaths. He totally wants to have his cake and eat it too.
The Whole Cake if you will.
You explained perfectly, especially with the examples towards the end, why fake deaths are a problem in story telling. This goes beyond just One Piece but since it’s the subject matter, I agree with you in terms of the weight of the Saul death moment in retrospect being essentially nullified. Robin’s happy face in this chapter is the only reason why I was ok with it
not nullified, she lived 20 years with it. Was going to die before she even knew he was alive. And has the audience, we have been almost through the same amount of time since that momment as Robin has. It is cheapen by other fakeout deaths in the series, on its own its not ruined.
The thing that has disappointed me in my favourite manga is this very issue. As a reader, I get emotionally invested in these characters and their tragedy, then feel betrayed when I see them walking around just fine. As you say, it significantly affects its re-readability.
Pell wasn't supposed to come back. Period.
In Wano, Ashura and Izo's deaths have lost all impact, since I was numbed by Kinemon and Kiku's case, such a pity.
For the moment, Saul coming back seems such a waste and shame, but perhaps our perception might change as the story unfolds. It feels late in the story, but if there's more to Saul and Aokiji's story, we might be misjudging it with our lack of knowledge. Although I don't know if that would be better than a failed fake out death scenario.
I felt almost no tension in the Onigashima War because I didn’t think it was possible for anyone to die. While I was disproven when Izo and Asura died, they died off-screen while Kinemon and Kiku somehow survived lying in pools of their own blood. Only two of the scabbards dying was far too little, and I still have very little tension going into the final saga. This is the biggest problem with One Piece, in my opinion
Asura actually died on cam during that explosion
@@michaelpeak2438 But without an emotional death scene
@@michaelpeak2438 You could argue that Izo also died on cam, but who would be able to tell?
@@vaporbabe3779 not true. That is subjectively your take
@Fearless Joy I’m aware. The point still stands though
i think oda actually does intend to kill characters at least some of the time but then feels bad because he loves his characters so much and changes his mind. i definitely see how the lack of dramatic commitment can be frustrating but tbh it doesn't really bother me
Oda needs to grow a pair.
What makes me upset is that Oda is a fantastic writer with incredible foresight who puts meticulous thought into his work. So he knows he’s cheating you, the reader, and making you invested in a character for the sake of a cheap emotional moment
- Shadow figures
- "That" character moments
- Looming threats(not really)
- Reckless handling of tone (forced transition from tragedy to celebration)
- Fake hype
- Fake death
- Actually killing characters who have "died" just casually
Wano is full of this crap writing. The fact that people felt insulted with the Saul revelation(despite being reasonable and thematically-sound) is a testament to how much trust with the readers Oda had broken. The fact that Oda is using the CP0 again as a looming threat in the Egghead Arc is seriously a salt to the wound.
Also, I don't believe he has an "incredible" foresight or meticulous at this point. He was. But not anymore.
@@justaway6901 You're so weird, why are you even here if you don't like one piece? Spending your free time like this is sad
I perfectly get Morj's point with regards to how it doesnt matter if the fakeout was planned or there was good evidence that a character would likely survive, a fakeout is still a fakeout but Saul surviving didnt really take away anything from the story. I still remember when I first saw Pell surviving and thought that it shouldve been a better decision if he remained dead for Vivi's growth as a person. The thing is, the Ohara incident wasnt tragic because of Saul, it was tragic because an entire island full of people and scholars got genocided just because they wanted to study true history. With Robin, it wasnt only Saul who loved her, it was all the scholars, Prof Clover, and Olvia that deeply cares for her. All of them except for one got decimated on that arc. Remove Saul from the equation and Ohara is still as tragic. When people would eventually reread the Ohara incident, even knowing that Saul survive, they'll still feel the tension and struggle and sacrifice Saul did on that scene (I still did), acknowledge the fact that Aokiji and Saul are friends and that Aokiji casted Ice Time Capsule on him and then look forward to the eventual reunion with Robin.
I feel the same. We as readers may not be able to go back to that scene and feel the despair that comes with Saul's death, because we know he isn't. But we can feel the despair Robin is feeling in that moment, because for her, in that moment, Saul is actually done for. And before that was clover, then her mother, then the whole isle. One of his friends making it alive actually comes with a lot of emotion, rather than erasing already felt emotions
In my opinion, this issue is getting more attention because we've had other fake deaths. But for all of them, this is the only one I feel adds nothing negative
Agreed, the trauma is not LOST because saul is alive. Robin still had to experience 20 years being alone with no one to trust which saul tried to say you will eventually find friends. Now we have a robin who developed past that and can finally show that what he said did come true which will be insane payoff. Also the one thing that makes it not even as much as a problem for me is that saul is not from ohara making robin still the last survivor of ohara meaning hte trauma will still be there regardless of saul is alive or not.
Although I truly admire Oda I must agree with Morj on this one. Oda chooses to treat his characters deaths really badly if they are not of great importance like Ace or Whitebeard.He either gives us real deaths that are unnecessary for the plot or fake ones that are proven really anticlimactic.
"Leave Ace's hole to me!" I'm not sure I'd want to leave that man alone with Ace's corpse after that tbh
Very good video. It gives voice to what a lot of us have been feeling but have perhaps neither the platform nor clarity to explain so succinctly. Thank you, Morj
Great critique video on this topic. Shoutouts to Sharky for saving Fisher Tiger tho!!
I'm glad that someone really points this out... writing fake deaths was one the biggest let down of this beautifully written series...and i felt it with Pell's death (as I was new to the series)...i truly loved the sacrifice he made for the sake of his country...and i truly started adoring him...but just after few episodes i found that he is alive...like wtf...and then as i continued watching the series i realised maybe it's hard for Oda sensie to kill some characters (as he might use it in any part of the story...which is justifiable for a long running series like one piece)...but i genuinely think some of the deaths (or i should say "sacrifices" ) needs to be real like pedero's, bon clay's otherwise there's no point loving them...
I'm not saying characters needs to die ...just some "sacrifices" needs to be real and i hope oda sensie will not disappoint us with this as well because I guess there's still a good chance of many shocking and genuine deaths and sacrifices in the "Final war" and I'm really looking how Oda sensie handles it
Feel the same way about Pell and it was the first time it really feel wrong.
I think Oda just wants a world where the pain of losing someone isn't prevalence.
Bon Clay is alive right?
@@ani9832 who knows bro
@@clashonyt24 If I remember correctly, he's alive and he's the new ruler of the level Ivankov was leading. It happened only in the manga I think, don't know when. I'll try and see if it is true and if so when it occurs
For some characters dying is the whole point - and Oda destroys that for no reason sometimes.
I 100% agree. Take Kishimoto for example. When he kills off characters in Naruto, he actually follows through with it.
Where as with Oda, he writes false death scenes so much, that I no longer trust him when it comes to character deaths.
Because he doesn't follow through, thus killing any tension I felt during those scenes.
@@nine_tails137dickriding naruto one piece still slams
This is like someone breaking down your door and stealing back a gift they gave you 10 years ago
"LEAVE Ace's HOLE to me" had me rolling. exquisite as always mr. morj
Since it seems like a lot of people don’t care anyways I will say I agree with you Morj. I know that Saul being alive makes sense and that Oda probably had this planned from the beginning but now it just completely sours his death scene and every other death scene because of how Oda has been handling them. I genuinely unironically expect it to turn out that Tom was actually alive this whole time and will come with end game lore so people will look past it and go “You know we didn’t actually see him die, I knew he was alive this whole time.”
I find the use of other important, dead flashback characters as a subject of comparison pretty stupid considering that Saul being alive has a lot more going for it than Bellemere, Hiruluk, Tom, Fisher Tiger, etc. being alive. The fact alone that out of all the flashback characters only Saul (Sabo doesn't count as his survival was pretty obvious) was even theorized to be alive for some time now should be telling enough.
I actually think Saul's situation is somewhat different from the others you mentioned in your video, as the weight of Saul's death in the reader is not in the fact that we care about the character and is sad to see him go, but rather that we care a lot about Robin, and now she's going to live life completely alone, which is the point of her narrative.
We care emotionally about Saul dying just because we care about Robin, and through her perspective, which is the one of an 8 year-old girl who just lost his best friend and now have to live alone, he's dead, so the scene holds the same weight for me.
I don't frame it as "damn, Saul died", but rather as "damn, Robin had to live her childhood alone trusting no one", so the death being fake is not an issue because Robin only finds out about it after that phase of her life has ended.
I actually really agree with this take. I think this is the reason i liked it so much. Robin is one of my favorite characters in the whole series, and seeing her have such amazing emotional moments always makes me tear up and i love it. I just want to see her be happy about the success of ohara after being labeled a demon throughout her childhood.
Perfectly said
In Robin's mind, she had no idea Saul was still alive. She spent 22 years thinking he sacrificed himself in an attempt to save her and give her hope for a brighter future, and him being alive doesn't change how his sacrifice affected her entire life up until now.
Comparing how Saul's "death affected Robin to Ace immediately being revived by "Mr. Fixit" just makes no sense to me and I don't really understand how you could compare the 2 situations
100% agree
@@bobbybobwellington Morj's comparison of the two situations is definitely a reach. Saul surviving doesn't change anything at all, Robin still lost everyone in Ohara including the most important figure in her life being her mother Olvia (Morj even says this fact in the video so I'm even more dumbfounded as to why he made this comparison in the first place). Meanwhile, Ace surviving would've catastrophic effects on the story.
The "Mr. Fixit reviving Ace" comparison doesn't even come close to "Saul being saved by Ice Time Capsule" theory either, because that's not the only possible explanation for his survival. You still have Aokiji himself and the Buster Call potentially thawing out the ice. Simply put, Saul has a lot more going for him surviving than any other significant dead flashback character.
While I understand Morj's feelings on the matter of fakeout deaths, that whole video section of him using other flashback characters' potential fakeout death as an example to compare with Saul is just really stupid to me - something I didn't expect from whom I consider the most logical and levelheaded of the OP RUclipsrs.
While true, the bigger issue is that Oda has done fakeouts so many times that nothing about his survival really feels as major or impactful as it should.
I totally agree with you. One of greatest strengths of oda's story telling is the depiction of suffering and emotional wounds certain characters have in them affecting their decisions.
One of greatest weaknesses of his story telling is the lack of confidence in whether a dead character has been max fleshed out for the story. This fear leads to Pell kinda situations. I do get feelings often that characters like Pell will ultimately die around the last arcs of one piece.
I was just watching a vid about you talking about this on "morj raid discussions", I'm looking forward to see your polished view on this because it is certainly a recurring topic in the fandom that has been taken to a new level with Saul.
Onigashima was a festival of fake deaths....
- Kiku taking a fat slash, loosing an arm , she is fine.
- Kanjuro, take all the hits from his - comrades. Left dying. And oopsie, he is fine. Later on he takes yet again fatal blow. And he is fine lol.
- Kaido defeats all the samurais on the rooftop, they are bleeding to death. And oopsie, Kaido the Yonko never checked whether or not they were dead.
- Orochi, gets decapitated, for a scene that makes Kaido a fearsome ruthless opponent, also getting rid of a very annoying character. And no Orochi has the annoying devil fruit, to keep being annoying again and again. Later on he is left for dead another time, to be alive again. And he doesn't accomplish anything.
- Kaido himself, just comes back again and again and again and again...
- Scratchman Apoo, takes a fat shishisonson from Zorro. He is cut from head to bottom. And he just has a headache...
- Even the little old man, Yakuza, that taught Luffy a technique. He was willing to sacrifice and so on. But noo, he stays alive. And we will be sure to never see that character anyway. What was the point of making him deliver a sacrifice speech.
- Kinemon was supposedly dead on the rooftop, but he is fine. Then in this room with all the samurais he takes an horrible blow from Kaido himself, in a bleak panel that would have been a legendary scene. But noooo. He is fine when he is cut in half 🤡. I like Kinemon, I don't want him to die, he is a father figure for Momo. And that's why the scene was so powerful. Now it is just a ridiculous scene.
And it is a war with not 1 but 2 Yonkos as opponents. We are supposed to feel not to mess around with 2 Yonkos. But in the end. Two Yonkos are barely able to kill anyone memorable. I don't particularly care about Asura. And the former white beard captain. I just never assumed he was dead. And when I got the news I was thinking, well, the arc is already over. I would have like to feel something clear sooner. And because of Oda's habits, I felt nothing to worry. It's a war, and I fear for nobody. No tension.
I think it was part of the reason I was looking for Onigashima to end. Because I knew there was no big point to follow the fights.
In the end the moments I enjoyed the most were Killer and Hawkins fight. As well as Law and Kidd vs Big Mom. Because those characters, I wasn't completely sure Oda would keep them in the story afterwards.
It's funny to think that. BM and Kaido made two big battles, the fall into a lava pool. And then a volcano eruption occured. And absolutely nobody is sure that they are dead 😂. It's crazy.
I really love when you bring these logic bombs to the community morj, and wish more people would actually listen to what you're saying instead of just reading the title and commenting the opinion they already had..
Agreed, I couldn't express my opinion as eloquently or as organized and got down voted to he'll in one piece reddit.
@@zoulzopan Leave that cesspool for your own sanity's sake. It's just a whole bunch of Oda nuthuggers who can't take *any* criticism whatsoever.
Yeah I do generally agree with you here. It's specifically because this practice cheapens the impact of those otherwise weighty scenes in hindsight.
I'm _personally_ still weirdly okay with the Saul one though (not entirely, I definitely would have preferred it to not be this way, but notably more okay than with any other). I don't really even buy into the Capsule thing that much, the logic side of it still feels shaky, but there's _something_ about this one that I can't quite put my finger on that makes it feel much better than the others.. One of those illogical things of emotion I guess.
Same I’m split I’m more fine with Saul being alive, also at the same time I would be ok if he died
an icetime capsule on an island on fire is just asking to be thawed, especially when we got the precedent of luffy and robin thawing in simple warm water. The logic is very sound on this one, especially since giants have a huge vitality and can tank a lot
@@Wawa-qn5pm Oh yeah I'm not debating that part, it's entirely plausible he could have thawed out and possibly even escaped before the following search of the island by the soldiers (not that he really should have been in any condition to, and hiding doesn't sound exactly likely for a giant, but it's not impossible). Would have taken some luck to not have gotten destroyed by the cannonfire (frozen people being easily shattered was also established), but that's not exactly unusual. It's more the "capsule foreshadowing" thing that I'm not really feeling. Probably should have worded it better.
@@IceAokiji303 Or none of your emotions is illogical, because you feel that it is a more logical fakeout death than others - which it is. Just your username alone tells you enough.
I was going to disagree with you, but someone else mentioned Asura and Izo's deaths in Wano, and I'll be honest...
I totally forgot that they died, and they are a perfect example of Oda's weird way of handling death in One Piece kinda does make death such a weird thing.
Yeah, at this point no matter how fucked up a character gets on screen, there’s really no tension for me because I find it hard to believe they’re actually in any danger
The amount of people in the comments saying "its okay because ROBIN felt it" is baffling. Literally didn't watch the video and just commented whatever they already felt.
I hear what you are saying and understand your frustrations. It can be annoying when a character is given a full death scene, a send off, a final goodbye, just to have a "haha jk" pop up later.
However, I would like you to look at it from a different perspective. You say that through a re-read of the series these scenes mean nothing now, and that's understandable too, you know what's coming, you know the death is fake. But each of these fake death scenes I think you should re examine from the perspective of the characters involved. To Robin, Saul was dead. Oda needed us to feel what she felt, to grow as she grew, to understand her perspective. If we knew that Saul was alive the whole time, the reveal later would be meaningless on the first read through, the "true" read through (experiencing things the first time WITH the Straw Hats).
I don't disagree with you, but respectfully, I think that Oda does this for a purpose that you're not seeing. He wants us the reader to feel what the characters feel in the moment. He's faking a death because to those in the moment the possibility of death is real. It may be subverted later, but now we get to feel all the feelings of that characters return as the Straw Hats would really feel them!
I feel like there was something tragic yet very beautiful about Saul being dead, him impacting Robin's life and dying trying to protect her, the fact that he only lived through her memories after that, there is something there which is so beautiful, i don't know how to explain it properly, i am happy for Robin but i have to admit that him being alive takes something special away from that moment for me, just my personal opinion :)
Is it less beautiful if Saul's alive? Kinda depressing
That was the point, it is beautiful in that context, but now there is the current state of one piece where you know that Saul never died so it does not have the same impact anymore. I have to agree that it's really well written scene but now when I go through it again in re-read it feels just empty because I know that Saul was frozen in time and saved at later date..
Likewise people keep bringing up him being a d. As a good reason for him to be alive and back in the story. We obviously haven’t unpacked all the mysteries of being a D. yet. So hey, maybe they are right. But Sauls death added to the mystique of the name to me. This random giant with this big mysterious name had this humble and tragic death to help one small girl he befriended. He didnt have to be some larger than life world shaker like most of the other D.‘s we’ve met. It’s beautiful on a character level and a world level.
Okay but her entire family and all loved ones are still dead
she met saul like 4 days before he died
@@velho6298 I'm of the mind that we lived that experience through Robin. The suspense created from the readers who typically have omniscience is overrun with new information. Even though she believed Saul died that event was insanely traumatic and a core part of Robin's journey. Imo Saul being alive gives more weight to Robin choosing to go to sea with Straw hats and not give in to the WG.
Only now can Robin cry tears of joy of fighting past that darkness to learn her faith in his words led her all the way to that point, where she shown bailing her eyes out.
Its a beautiful moment in an otherwise tragic story for Robin. Kinda like the light at the end of the tunnel, the issue is we don't know what happens next or if Saul will stay alive.
Tbh I feel like he might die fr this time in front of her just as she learns about the Lost Century.
Never trust an anime miracle til the fat lady sings, we could always have the rugged pulled from under us with new events/info.
The greastest thing about this video is that it addresses the personal investment we all have in the series. I personally didn't lose a whole lot from Saul being alive and am looking forward to how Oda will use the character + these reveals for the plot later on. However, I acknowledge your perspective and belive it's valid to feel this way about characters coming back like a Pell and a Saul. The value that you place on the series, which is the emotions it draws, has been lost to some degree and that's kinda unfortunate
That dam Bob D. Builder fix it analogy was absolutely hilarious, I love it
Never thought about that... And Morjsama... You are SPOT ON.
Thank you for this. Your OP videos are the best.
I also think its important to mention Robin's backstory does not end with Saul's death. The saddest part to me was what came after. Which extended to 20 years of her lonelyness, abuse, and inability to trust others, until the Strawhats broke her out of that. The 15 years since I read that chpater are pretty close to Robin's distance to those events. I don't think such a time spend in our lives with one Piece should be ignored. But of course, I also need to understand the POV of someone only only reading or watching One Piece and not having gone through a world when Saul was thought dead, and on that end it is a Pell-like scene. But I feel... out it, I think it might change when enought time goes by. However, as of now, I, in emulation via the story, like Robin, carried that weight for over a decade. So, being a prisioner to the moment, I couldn't help being happy with Saul being alive.
Sauls was reasonable, but Odas used up the required good will
I always appreciate that you speak your mind when you don´t like something...some fans need to learn that it´s okay to not like everything about your fav series and still enjoy it
hard agree. if i found out law's family survived, I'd imagine it would cheapen my favorite backstory in the same way Saul's revival seems to have for you. I still love robins backstory but this solidified Law's being my favorite of Oda's.
The thing about fake out deaths is. No matter how well you do them. You can only have so many before deaths overall loose meaning.
I personally don’t see how you see the sabo situation differently. Maybe his particular death scene wasn’t long and drawn out but they did have the whole ASL flashback in general happen.
I see that you think the fact that Dragon was there makes it better for the Sabo situation but I think that is equal to Aokiji using time capsule.
Other than the fact that you don’t treat those two situations the same I completely agree with where you’re coming from. I love Odas writing style but that is something I cannot over look.
Oda can never kill someone on screen and he’s not that good at doing it most the time but when it’s good it’s really good
I completely agree, it's cheating as a writer to capitalise on the emotional pay-off of a character death without then committing to the death unless there is a clearly established in world path to resurrection (like in Dragon Ball). I've kinda just accepted fake-outs as a part of One Piece though. The first few times were annoying, but by now it is what it is.
I do think it's going to get worse though. I have a theory that Brooke's awakening will be able to call other peoples' souls back for a short period of time, and we're going to see Ace come back with it.
Very well thought and worded video. Thanks!
Bob the builder with a minigun, this shit was hilarious and a very well explained point. Love u morj
Let's be honest the only reason Saul is alive is so that Oda can tie in Egghead with Elbaf, The Revos, and Ohara.
It doesn't even make sense how Saul got off the island or why he went to Elbaf when he wasn't affiliated to Elbaf or why he is the captain of what seems to be Hajruddin's pirate crew. Like bruh. Even the excuse of marines finding the books and not bothering to even report it OR as to why the CP agents didn't find and destroy them is just as lame
While I hate a lot of fake out deaths in One Piece, I don't mind Saul. You ignored one aspect of what makes a fakeout death bad. It is that they serve no purpose to the story, which was the case with Pell. Finding that Saul is alive with Robin's reaction is something that is different from Pell's situation or any other situation. We now want to look forward to the Robin-Saul reunion, which makes us excited for Elbaf arc. It's not just because "there is an out" that the fanbase has a much more positive reaction compared to Pell. And yeah, Saul being just one of the three important characters to die in Robin's flashback also matters. Under different circumstances I might have hated it, but Oda pulled it off this time that I genuinely was smiling when reading this chapter. (And I did reread the Robin flashback after this chapter and it still hits.)
So you're saying if Pell had a more plot related role in the story going forward, his fake death would've been justified? Cause one could argue Kinemon has an important role as Momo's main supervisor, yet his fake death scene is hated by most fans. And I think this role could have easily been played by Vegapunk, who already memorozed the books, or another giant who took after Saul, instead of bringing him back and ruining the death scene for some people. I think the real reason people like the Saul reveal boils down to Robin and fans wanting to see her happy after all she's gone through, which I can totally get.
@@enriquesalvador9904 That is one of the reasons. Others I mentioned was the reveal itself was with Robin's reaction that made it work. We now look forward to Robin-Saul reunion and Elbaf arc more.
And Saul was just one out of 3 major characters to die in Robin's flashback, and his death was more sad because of Robin's POV. With Kinemon and Pell, the death was sad because Pell had an entire chapter dedicated to him and Kinemon is a character we have spent 100s of chapters with. Also, both these characters had a stupid reason for surviving and that factors in as well.
Spot on. I agree with you. The stupidest plot twist would be if Robin knew it all along. Then everything would be in vain. Aokiji wouldn't matter, Ohara wouldn't matter, and the whole Enies Lobby fight would be in vain. I think the stupidest death is with Pell. And I think if Pell would be dead, everything else would be excusable, even Kinemon.
OP fandom gaslighting themselves into accepting Oda's mistakes once again. Never change OP fans, never change.
"Saul surviving is okay because he has a porpuse in the story". By that logic you should also be fine with Ace surviving too lmao.
@@HyakuJuu01300 It is one of the reasons. Saul is not nearly as important of a character as Ace was. There are many reasons that I listed in the replies, together that makes me feel okay with it. I will not repeat myself. I highlighted "no purpose" point because it felt weird that Morj never brought it up during his video, while only focusing that fans are happy because Oda foreshadowed it.
And I hate fake out deaths: Pell, Pound, Kinemon etc. Will never defend those. Saul is just written differently.
The saddest thing is that the execution of these "deaths" are so good and I really don't understand why oda keep bringing them alive. Not mad about Saul tbh, I can't wait for Robin to meet him.
Now you know what inspired Kishimoto's Edo tensei
@@justaway6901 that was executed once and well lol
@@justaway6901 Ew
@@justaway6901 I know it's a joke but just in case some idiot takes it seriously; Edo Tensei was straight up resurrection, which Oda said in one of his interviews that he hated (resurrecting characters). In Oda's defense, his fakeout deaths do not resurrect characters because they never died in the first place.
I see your point with these fake out deaths and how they hurt the reread ability and makes death scenes less impactful, but I'm fine with Saul being alive and i wouldn't put him with the likes of Pell or Kinemon, and Robin backstory isn't less tragic because of Saul being alive a person she only met for a few days.
A false death with no “milking” is obvious and hollow. If you’re going to fake a death, it should either be immediately outed like doflamingo or enel, or seem like a real death. Otherwise, there is no point in faking it.
I hate it so much. There are so many fake deaths, and so many characters that should have died but didn't.
And the biggest problem is that no one is critising Oda, and that's why it keeps happening.
The one piece tards just think that every chapter is 10/10, and that's why nothing will change because Oda never hear any ciritism.
I legitimately hardly believe any death in OP at this stage. Even though Pedro blew up and they buried Yasui. I hardly let myself feel the emotion of those deaths. Because who knows.
Everyone forget the worst fake out death , paragaya
Conis dad was just some normal old man but somehow he survived enel attack that was always meant as a death penalty
To this day I don't understand why oda did that ??
I think the answer is simple especially with Pell's and Pagaya's fakeout deaths, two of the most egregious in the series. Oda loves his characters and his happy endings.
The absolute worst part about Saul dying is that it gives a small chance... for even Pedro to be alive now... That's the level to which fake death can ruin the series
nah I sincerely don't see that happening tbh
@@juiuice remember this video if it happens bro
@@hakkbak Pedro literally exploded point blank, using his own dynamites. Saul was frozen, which we know from seeing Aokiji's powers can be thawed out. Literally two different "death" scenes.
See what happens when you paint fakeout deaths and actual deaths with a broad stroke?
@@cavendish2925 no, I don't see what happens. Because Pell took a nuke to the face point blank and is still alive.
The real problem with these fake out deaths is that I need to wait at least 50 chapters to make sure it's real, and then the feeling is just gone. I can't take deaths seriously at this point in one piece just like dragon ball. God forbid that Oda sticks to the stacks.
Fuck, you really got me with those Bob D.Builder jokes
Hey great video. Agree with everything.
I still feel a difference with Saul.
- Firstly, we are meant to be feel like and with Robin.
- She believed he's death and we believed he's dead and we moved on.... Only to the emotions come running back to us (Readers and Robin).
- I immediately, went back and read Ennies lobby to be washed over with as a sort of relief... Like you'd feel with a real loved one. It even makes me excited about Robin going and telling Saul that she found her people.
- And it also moves the plot forward significantly...
The worst was.... Pound (The only man to really die in One piece, because he will not be remembered to whatever... It's a very beautiful message too that was wasted. For nothing.)
Kinemon amd Kiku to... Again for What???😐
I don’t think Saul surviving takes away any of the emotional weight in Robins backstory. She still had to go 30 years without anybody she could trust and still living with the PTSD of everyone she cared about dying in front of her. Even if he is alive it doesn’t remove all of the hardships she went though and how his “death” affected her at the time it happened. The only thing it does in my opinion is give her a small fragment of happiness that she thought was lost forever a long time ago, which to me is really sweet.
Precisely. Well put
Ok. Corazon being alive doesn't take away all the bad things Law experienced before. Let's have him back as well.
Hiluluk being alive now won't erase the trauma chopper went through. Let's get him back as well.
Bellemere being alive won't remove all the trauma and suffering Nami went through in fishman's hands. We can get her back as well.
😂😂😂
Are you dumb? Or just pretending to be dumb?
The amount of excuses and mental gymnastics people make to justify Oda's baffling decisions never fail to amuse me.
@@HopefulNihilist OP fandom is a braindead cult at this point. Even if Ace revives next chapter, I can bet with all my money that half the fandom will defend it as a good decision 😂🤣
@@HopefulNihilist bro the fandom is actually scary, I mean this literally. Oda can say the one piece is a tv box from the future and the fanbase will defend it "it's so fitting, if you didn't see this coming then you weren't paying attention" "tbh it doesn't take anything away from the journey, the one piece was supposed to be silly, even Roger laughed" "it's supposed to make us laugh, you are an edge Lord" bro it's like a cult.
Just finished the video. First of all, great video as always. I'm glad that your against the whole "It's not a plot hole so it's okay!!!" take because that's not a good take lmao. Like if there was a panel of Pell putting on a bomb proof vest or something in the background, that wouldn't immediately make his fake out ok. And I definitely agree with what you said about the fact that Kinemon, Pell, Pound, Kiku, etc were all flase death scenes because of how milked they were. But Saul is different. Saul was a character that we cared about through Robin. This may just be me, but I didn't cry when Saul got frozen, I cried when Robin sat in her ship and Sobbed while desperately trying to do his laugh. Like if your friends dad died or something (morbid example, I know) and you see them crying at the funeral, you feel hurt in your own heart from their pain, not so much for your own connection to that person. Moving on to another point, the other false death scenes were done terribly. Pell saying "is that my grave?!?!?!", Kinemon farting, and Pound being in a cover story were all terrible ways to do it. Especially since those characters will never be relevant again. But seeing Robin in this chapter really hit different, and this reveal was the absolute perfect way to do it. Robin has always been cold, and almost heartless. She couldn't really bring herself to laugh in desperate times like Saul told her to. Now, we're going to see her character go under extreme development from Egghead to Elbaf, and that's why I think that this is going to be the best choice. Saul can't be compared to Pell or Pound for this reason, his relevance and potential in the story is too much, and it's already showing positive effects. If Fisher Tiger showed up again, that would ruin Jimbei's motivation as well as the threat of racism in One Piece. If Ace showed up, Luffy's entire character arc would be destroyed because he never had that failure to push him to get stronger. But Robin had Clover and Olivia to push her towards her dreams, and Saul's death just crushed her spirit. Now, we're going to see her spirits lift again. I'm willing to debate this
Good take
I do remember tearing up a bit with Luffy and Ace’s reaction to Sabo well after I knew Sabo was alive and yeah the derereshishishi stuff is still pretty sad, but still I don’t know still don’t feel Saul being alive adds much to the story I guess besides being the man kid mentioned which would make sense.
@@ew275x yes, my argument is largely based on the assumption Saul will be extremely relevant due to his connections to Elbaf, Vegapunk, Aokiji, and Robin. Maybe even the man marked by flames. But if not, I take defeat for this
I disagree about fisher tiger and ace it’s a false equivalency they actively died on screen we saw them die and there wasn’t a way for them to reasonably survive and it being confirmed it’s not the same as saul whose death wasn’t confirmed he was frozen we just assumed
@@adonaimelles2317 fair, I only brought up those two because he mentioned them in the video
I think you're right, and I also think you have the best view on storytelling in terms of One Piece content creators. It doesn't matter if there was something suttle put in place just in case, like a "ice time capsule". What matters is that Saul's "death" will always be fake now, regardless of if the watcher is new or returning.
Spot on and overdue, like you said. I'm glad you made this, one of your best vids
I disagree about Saul. That flashback is written mostly for us to have the same beliefs and emotions as Robin, which is necessary to sell her tragedy. She believed Saul was dead, and the narrative now came full circle. The rest of Robin's family, the rest of the archeologists are gone. It's still earned for me, it was what Robin believed and Robin's story hasn't lost anything. It's still incredibly sad, it's still what an 8 year old Robin believed, that trauma isn't erased or cheapened.
İt did.
10 year old believed Corazon died and experienced tons of trauma as well. Now if Corazon is back, it is ok too?
Chopper as a child had trauma he was disliked by all humans and races and he truly believed Hiluluk died. So no if Hiluluk is back, nothing emotionally will be lost?
You can apply this to all flashbacks, I advise you to use your brain more often😂
@@fy4072 the differences are that in robin’s backstory 3 ( more if you count all the scholars) important figures died. Clover, Olivia and Saul. One of them being alive, especially saul ( becouse it actually makes sense) doesn’t nullify the sadness of her story. The thing that im really mad about is Oda reviving other characters. Kinemon and Pell should have totally died. Him reving these characters made this fake out death meaningless in a lot of readers eyes. If he killed these characters, Saul surving would have been Soooooo more impactful.
@@heysalve9753 Law's father, mother, sister, all his friends and his country died as well. İt is the same situation.
İf you are ok with Saul being alive doesn't reduce the flashback.
Than Corazon hanging around on a summer island being alive shouldn't also effect the flashback.
🤣
@@fy4072 i meant characters who actually had screen time. Law’s family had literally less than one page.
@@heysalve9753 and?
Robin saw her mother for the first time that day. and had like half a chapter along with archeologs before dying.
Screentime doesn't matter. Point is Law suffered as much as Robin before Corazon's sacrifice. Many important people died. Corazon's sacrifice to Law is similar to Saul's sacrifice. By saying Saul's sacrifice being in vain is ok. You are also saying if Corazon is back it is ok as well.
Which is BS. Robin's mother and archeologs dying doesn't validate making Saul's sacrifice a joke.
I really enjoyed the video!
I think people should focus on Morj’s main argument that the story retroactively becomes weaker as a result of miracle false deaths.
Morj is right in that fake outs are written as true death scenes which is why readers can forgive fake outs, but when a writer writes a false death scene the way they do a real death scene and readers read the false death scene as a real death scene then there is definite whiplash and resentment at being emotionally manipulated
Personally, unlike Morj, I can still read and enjoy the Pell and Saul death scenes, but similar to Morj, I do mourn the what could’ve beens. If Pell or Saul died, those deaths would’ve definitely cemented their spot as some of the greatest character deaths and best written death scenes ever.
Unfortunately, i doubt people will be using Pell or Saul’s death as a lesson in writing good death scenes even though when the chapters were released those chapters were the best examples of effective death scenes
Readers definitely lost something.
I can still enjoy my rereads but I understand if others cannot
"I think people should focus on Morj’s main argument that the story retroactively becomes weaker as a result of miracle false deaths."
I mean, yes, there's a resounding agreement to that argument in this entire thread. However, if that's all there is to it as to why he thinks Saul's survival is not worth it then Morj is simply being tunnel-visioned and he chooses to live in the past.
@@cavendish2925 or you could say he’s thinking I’ve rather bigger picture. For some, one piece on reread will suffer with Saul being alive just like how Pell dying weakened the story. Pell hasn’t done anything useful in the story yet and although that fate seems unlikely Saul, you can see why people like Morj would worry. If Pell being alive ended up not doing much for the story and just served to weaken the tragedy of Arabist’s in return for a slightly happier ending, then Saul being alive won’t sour Robin’s flashback without giving anything substantial in return. Again, I don’t agree with this, but I try to see how other people’s perspectives and honestly their perspectives are valid.
@@bobbytran3878 Morj being completely hung up on Saul's death and not on his parting words to Robin is the exact opposite of looking at the bigger picture, my guy. You could literally change Saul's fate in the flashback from "dying" to "getting imprisoned at Impel Down" and nothing will change about the impact of his words to Robin. What drove Robin to continue living was not Saul's death, it was his "final words" - for she lost not only Saul but most importantly everyone dear to her and everything in Ohara.
We can talk all day about the loss of emotional impacts of these characters' deaths upon reread but the main issue here is that Morj in this video is disappointingly simply lumping in Saul's death with other fakeout deaths in the series and is strongly refusing to see why his fakeout death is unlike the others because, again, he's not looking at the bigger picture.
@@cavendish2925 @cavendish2925 the "impact" of Saul's lesson is NOT the main thing being retroactively weakened. It's the tragedy of Robin's backstory. Yes, being imprisoned in impel down is terrible but that's very different from being killed in front of your eyes. Also, again, let's use Pell as an example. Some readers may still be hung up on Pell's "death" but that doesnt meant they dislike arabasta as an arc or one piece as a story, Just bc readers recognize or feel that pell's "death" weakened the tragedy of Pell's amazing "death" scene doesnt mean readers r forever hung up by a single chapter and cant enjoy the rest of the story. Morj, and other readers, can not like this new development. They have good reasons to justify their personal experience. We don't know what Saul will do here on out so we cant say for sure but a lot of readers dont want another Pell and i think there's a lot of valid reasons for that worry. Readers can be both sour at saul being alive and excited that he may add to the story. it doesnt change the fact that, since we have pell as an example, Saul's new development may be concerning
@@bobbytran3878 Again, this is why I find the comparisons terrible because Saul is a unique case. You literally can't compare Saul's survival to any other significant flashback character or present-day character fakeout deaths because of the circumstances surrounding Robin's life. If Saul doesn't have any more purpose other than the already revealed fact that he lead the giants to salvage the books and he's now serving as the librarian of Ohara in Elbaph, then those are more than enough justification because the primary emotional weight of him being alive anyway lies on the fact that Robin now has someone to come home to at the end of the series just like the rest of the Strawhats and that it turned out that Robin didn't lose everyone in Ohara - she still has her friend Saul. It all ties in beautifully with the chapter's name "the will of Ohara."
well with saul, i feel like you can still have that moment. pretty much all of the tragedy of that scene was about robin losing everything she knew and loved and she still did. relatively, she only just met saul and he was mostly someone who was there to show her some new perspectives to set her up for whats to come. the emotional weight of that scene still hits just as hard for me because the tragedy is still 100% there even if you completely take saul out. pelle is completely different because the entire emotional weight of that scene was on him.
@@ryvall_blu nah, i just think Morj is very narrowminded in His narrative belief and dont agree
@@ryvall_blu robin alone on that boat trying to laugh for herself is that ‘crescendo’ for me 🤷🏻♂️
No matter how you shake it you can't convince me that the tragedy of Robin losing her Mother and her island line isn't enough of a tragedy and Saul's death makes or breaks the flashback. From what you described the death wasn't a plot hole and makes sense so it doesn't hurt the story. The problem to you is that the fake out death was too convincing? Isn't that the point. If fake out death isn't convincing doesn't it make it less impactful?
At this point, I think there's a chance that Nefertari Cobra is still alive lmao
I look at it from the perspective of the characters within the story instead of how it makes me feel. Sure looking back at Robin’s backstory won’t be so tragic anymore, but it brings a new dimension to Robin as a character. So now when I revisit Robin’s backstory, I can see it in a new light. I now feel a sense of joy in the midst of tragedy for Robin because I know that this incident helped her find the SH who have helped her through her dark times while also understanding that she not only found something new but also something that was lost. I think it’s a beautiful closure for Robin. Not to mention it finally will address the question of why Saul is a D clan-a question I’ve had for ages seeing as to how Saul just “died” like that.
Then let's bring back Bellemere, Dr. Hiluluk and Corazon while we're at it.
How it makes us readers feels isn't important right? What the characters within the story feel is much more important, right???
Might as well bring Sora back and have her renuite with Sanji, I'm sure it will be a beautiful close for him.
@@HyakuJuu01300 You make a great point, but with Corazon, his death was set up for Law’s vendetta against Doffy. Dr. Hiriluk’s death was supposed to push forth the theme of someone dying only when they are forgotten. So those two it doesn’t make sense thematically to have them still be alive. Bellemere is a tough one to argue against your point but the theme is sort of family, and Nami got that with the straw hats, seems a bit redundant to have her back with Nami for the whole. Sora’s sacrifice has to do with Sanji being human, and having her back would make this theme weaker since part of being human is losing people you love. Robin’s however is regarding loneliness, and having Saul back is indeed playing into this theme. Someone who felt like she’s lost everything and alone in this world finds company in the new and in what she thought she lost.
With that being said, the main reason why I like Saul being back is cuz I just never understood why he was a D clan. Now we will know. And much like Morj and you, I would have liked him to stay dead, IF AND ONLY IF he wasn’t a D Clan.
Agreed I feel like morj should've touched on what was gained and not solely what was lost because there is a lot of benefits to saul being alive than him just staying dead.
A key difference for me between Fisher Tiger and Saul is that Fisher Tiger's death is essential to the choices of Jimbe, Arlong, the Royal Family, and Hordy Jones. Whereas Saul dying was always less important to me than Robin's emotional reality and his final words to her. It was more about her learning to "Trust in Luffy" than it was losing a dear friend. It was the life she experienced after the tragedy of Ohara. And Ohara is still a tragedy, even if Saul is not.
Kudos for absolutely getting it.
I don't know yet if I can agree or disagree with you. While I really like your examples with Fisher Tiger, Noland and Ace, I also think that something was always wrong with Saul's death scene. I didn't think he'd survive, like you said, most people agreed he was dead, but his death always struck me as weird.
"Time can heal all wounds." I guess this saying can apply to this moment, because yes, that scene 700 chapters ago will be viewed differently from now on, but at the same moment, that doesn't have to be a bad thing. Will you also gloss over explanations about the gomu-gomu no mi just because that knowledge is invalid now? When you talk about re-reads, things tend to get iffy, because you can't just pick one aspect of it, (Death Scenes) and say, they get worse with added knowledge. There's also emotions involved with fights like Luffy vs Rob Lucci, but does this fight get worse, just because we know, that Luffy defeats him? Or do all previous encounters with Yonkou and Admirals get worse now that we know, that Luffy will be able do beat them now? A re-read will get other emotions out of you, but this is the important part. You can never feel the exact emotions twice while reading the same scene, so it's way better to get completely different emotions the second, and third, and fourth, and so on....times around. I've read this story many times, like you have and after big turning points, things change on a re-read. This is why this extremely long story still is fun to re-read.
Saul needed a Death scene, so that the community could move on. Think about the other side of the coin, Oda setting up a more obvious chekhov's gun with making Saul's death just a "Death Fakeout", like you call it. People would wait for some sort of payoff for hundreds of chapters, growing tired of a moment that obviously was setting up things and wasn't talked about for ever. And then, after people already didn't care about that moment anymore, that payoff would finally come. There is a moment in My hero academia that does exactly this (Traitor), where everyone was already tired of it when it finally got revealed. So Saul needed to be "laid to rest", completely out of our mind.
BUT....I'm also completely agreeing with many of your points. The one thing that always makes me mad with One piece are these completely unnecessary fake deaths. And I'm sure there would be no problem with Saul's death, which probably was always intended to be "fake", if things like "characters with no more agency in the story being brought back" wasn't a recurring theme in the story. Pell was brought back for absolutely no reason, so was Pound. Pagaya's fake death only made Enel look like a joke, can't even kill of an old man. Kin'emon and Kiku were just weird fakeouts while nobody believed Ashura and Izo were really dead until confirmation. This always makes us suspicious about deaths to the point were I wouldn't believe that Ace was dead until after it was too late
to feel anything about his death.
Those things doesn't apply to Saul for me. Most of those fakeouts were for characters that will never be relevant again, bringing Saul back as well as his relevancy makes for a pretty hype moment, even if it transforms our thinking about Robin's backstory. But instead of glossing over that moment, on the next re-read I will search for hints, look on how this moment changes everything in the future and while not getting sad about it, I will instead be really intrigued by that level of foreshadowing.
"I also think that something was always wrong with Saul's death scene"
Possible reasons you're probably thinking:
1) "Ice Time Capsule";
2) He's a D;
3) Aokiji (and him being a close friend of Saul).
Bob D. Builder is the funniest goddamn joke in history and I'll fight to the death anyone who argues.
This is the main reason i dropped One Piece. One of my biggest pet peeves in stories are when no character dies, when they should've. Especially for a battle series with lots of life and death scenarios. There's no tension, so i can't get myself to be invested. Have thought about picking up One Piece again, but this is really holding me back from giving it a second chance. Why even have fights between life and death when everyone survives anyway?