That is such a good Video, I've always wondered why Top players dont talk/discuss these things in Videos because new players dont dive this deep into the game
Isaac Mendez there are tons of good resources in the community if you know where to look. Larry Lurr posts a lot of different important information about characters and how to fight them, ZeRo has some interesting commentaries on games between pro players, Beefy Smash Dudes has some in depth labbing stuff on their channel, and then there are smaller channels like Frenzy Light that post basic combo tutorials
I've tried really hard to avoid getting into frame data, cuz that leads to labbing, and I'm lazy. But honestly this is a good amount of info just for now.
framedata is actually really intuitive, you dont realize it because you just think its overwhelming and confusing numbers. to help that realization i think looking at the hitbox data helps as well because you see whats happening visually. this automatically lets you think about your own character, things that you have done, or other characters and situations you have been in against them, or just seeing their moves. the hard part is having to keep up on all of it because you may not be someone who can focus their time on such unless you decide to dedicate your time into things like fighting games well. in addition to that is knowing what to do with that new found knowledge, you cant just learn framedata and hitboxes and that be it, unless your an ai programmed to do such in the moment or overtime. in voids examples, he already knows about pichus downthrow comboing into an aerial move, he knows characters like joker, wolf, luigi and palu and their options such as those to escape combos. the most difficult part is learning this well, to be able to do it as if it is natural to do so. thats how pro players have such great movement, comfort, and responsiveness. they no longer focus on what to do because they know how, now they just need to know what and what not to use and when to do so. apart from implementation, what makes figuring out combos or movement difficult is the randomness of situations. voids recent learning of the rain drop combo must be specifically done with the opponent being lead into the air above a platform on stage, and it must be done so in a way that the moves work, can connect and have all of those moves work in that time and space. the opponent must have certain a percentage of damage dealt to them, the players must be in a specific position, the moves chosen must be most optimal for such to happen to cause the event, the opponent must be put in a situation that allows that option to occur and well, there must be enough space after the initial start of the combo to allow double uair especially through a platform, the opponent must land in an area that leads to a confirmed kill move most specifically the platform itself to lead into the sweet spot of sheik's up smash, the opponent must be at a percentage or position on a certain stage that leads them into the blast zone efficiently to achieve the kill. majority of this may or may not happen in the background, you may already know the percentages, have character and stage knowledge, know how to combo with uair, etc. etc. but this helps show what goes on in general that creates the resulting scenario from practically nothing. the hitbox data also gives a lot more then just numbers and something to look at as it shows whats happening while playing, and you can utilize that to also get a start on the creation of combos whether it gives you an idea to start on, helps an old idea, leads to better understanding situations or combos already made, or even eliminating what works or not because even though not obtaining something sounds negative, you narrow options down to eventually find such which is better then nothing, etc. etc.
This is really important to know as an Inkling main.Up throw up air doesn’t work on Luigi cause he can escape on Frame 1. Plus a lot of new Inkling players always ask why the combo counter doesn’t work when doing up throw up air on certain characters, like Mario. This video explains perfectly why! Happy you addressed this!
that is true but I think the whole point of the video is to dive into the combo concept much deeper than just "oh this is generally true, if not just bait their options out". Rather, Void is implying that we can increase our chances at optimizing combos by choosing specific combos/extensions that will cover their frame options so we avoid having to risk stopping a combo to bait your opponents out which can cause you to lose momentum if you didnt get a read. Generally speaking against top level players, stopping a combo short just to try to get a read for an extension is risky because you lose potential damage/pressure in hoping you expect a top level player to have a certain habit. Top players do have habits but are more conscious of habits than other players. Also this idea void is giving for combos is a quick way to understand what combos work on 70+characters rather than having to individually test EACH combo on each character with different DI. That takes a very long time to test because of so many factors. Using this generic idea, you can get a grasp of what extensions you can choose for different characters.
@@starter497 This is a fantastic summary of the gist of the video. I'm wondering like if Sheik isn't actually covering jump with bouncing fish but fails VS airdodge...
it's pretty great to see more classical fgc concepts like this become more mainstream. obviously this is a basic intro but just to get people to study this is really great at a more widespread level
These are basically just frame traps, but explained way better than any other player. I don't get why people are confused by adding a couple of frames to a hitstun window, hold buffering makes it really easy to cover these and objectively know whether a follow up comes before an escape. That being said this is a really smart system for extending true combos depending on the matchup.
I’m pretty sure the math would help in smash bros, it probably is easier to not have to react to everything and be able to get better guesses what’s coming next
Thank you so much for this video, I've had to explain this to people so many times, now I can just link to this. Another good rule of thumb is that combos into grab where your opponent is grounded when hitstun ends (drag downs that don't cause tumble, and some low percent combos) are more lenient than other similar combos (generally hitstun+1/+2) since shield is most characters only frame 1 option on the ground (watch out for characters with frame 1 jabs though).
Speaking from experience, I can tell you that worrying about your wits does essentially nothing but stifle them. Make sure to practice as often as you can while still enjoying it, and vary your practice strategies. For example: play tons of online matches, pause during an offline match with a lvl 9 cpu and think about what your best options are in certain situations then try to act on your thoughts, watch top players, etc. and I’m sure you’ll get better soon enough. On the subject of improving mental strength in life, most of the things I said apply to everything in life so do with it as you will! Good luck!
@@Mom-dj8wp I appreciate you're advice! Unfortunately, this is a problem that affects me throughout my life, not just smash. I'm fixing things like my sleep schedule, water intake, Omega 3s intake, trying to read more, etc. I figured it's affecting my gameplay as well. Just more the reason to work on improving my mental strength as a person. I'm not too worried, I'm hope for the future :)
@@caasinom8008 I actually go to tournaments consistently (not the past few weeks because social distancing). I'm a bit slow to react because I get a jam in my brain before I can act, even if I'm not empirically thinking. I just feel as I need to work on more mentally draining aspects of the game like conditioning, optimal punish, and character knowledge. I'm not dissing on myself at all, I think I'm quite good for someone who doesn't own a switch. My highest run at a tournament was 4-2. I appreciate your input, thank you so much
@@dallinkoger5533 yeah everything you're doing sounds like healthy steps so I wish you the best of luck. I think I struggle in somewhat similar aspects of the game but it's all a work in progress. Smash is sick
If you apply this to sheik you get a so many nice options (these are just optimized throw combos): 0-20% fthrow > dash > full hop fair > nair > fair/up air/what ever you want (works on frame 3 airdodge and slower and on fastfallers you can follow them because they always be under you) 15-35% Dthrow >dash > jump > double jump > fair > up air dd *or* nair > anything; if the opponent has frame 1 escape option or is at lower %. Fair "true" combos into nair at ~20% and into upair ~25% (I am not 100% sure since I tested this quit a while ago). This combo is similar to what Falco players call active hop/jump 35-50% fthrow > dash > full hop fair > dj fair > upair dd > anything; this can be DIed really hard and you may need to go for a nair or fair at the end and the fthrow is really DIable as well
I think this is really cool! Can you go into detail about your theory behind optimizing combo routes as well? I'm interested to hear what your thought process is as soon as you land a launcher and why you select the combos that you do over others.
This made me think a lot about greninja DA to fair. Most of the time it will not register as a true combo but it will hit unless the character has a frame 1 option.
This is super dope! Really cool info, and probably something that I could see a lot of people applying and making charts for the characters. You always remind me of a mad scientist with your hair when you get into frame data. So, thanks for being the crazy genius and passing on your knowledge!
Well i was kind of expecting a lot more from this video. Like how to build consistent combos in ultimate. This is nice in terms of frame data understanding, but i find it just a little too short
Man, anytime I'd lose with shiek I'd think, No kill power, and regret it and wished Id become someone middle weight, risky ass character, I respect the simple fact you could thrive with shiek
Yo I didn’t know about this one thing until today: that you can press two jump buttons together to do an auto short hop, and if you’re holding down while inputting an aerial, it auto fast falls! Also didn’t know about pivot tilts, they are very useful
@@rairudokohai594 idk man, outside of GimR no one seems to have a competitive consensus on true combos. The beefy smash doods say contradictory stuff all the time for example
Void, you gonna start doing any “First to 10’s” with anyone? I’d like to see you play MKleo or Samsora. I personally think you’re better being my favorite Pro player
"again thank you squarespace for sponsoring this video... I actually really love squarespace..." He either really loves squarespace or they're holding him hostage
You kinda have a good idea Void but you also have to put into a count there DI and response time and reflex like say your playing Pichu vs Marth and do the down throw to fair and he reacts with up b you can wait that out and punish him or even shield then grab him again like smash to me is like chess you move and do stuff but when you hard punish someone there in check and if they can't do anything by any means then checkmate and there's your stock or worse your game or set so there other things to keep track of besides hitstun and little frames to stun+3
Void You are my favorite smash player, I love you because you inspire me to play Pichu and I watch all your videos and I would love to talk to you someday!
This video was really informative and interesting, I kinda wish you coild go further with more complicated examples. Is there a place where I can find optimal escape options and the frames for those options for every character?
Yall are making fun of how Void presents Square Space. Nah guys, that's just the Void stare. It's effective at reverse 3-0ing and an effective sales tactic :)
Guys, squarespace isn't holding him hostage, they're just covering his getup options
theAnarch just get up attack
didnt know i had to be smart to play this game
Illucid MASHING
Illucid you don’t have to be if you play that stupid dog
@@bray4883 someone's salty 😏
Braydon Cunningham you have yoshi as your pfp you don’t have to think to recover dumbass
Legion 69 you think i’m a yoshi main? Rofl fuck that character
Why Void look like he's being held hostage by Squarespace during the ad segments
Lmao. I was thinking the same thing. He looks at the camera like he's staring into the eyes of a Ganon main he just sent to the shadow realm.
I can kinda relate though. If I had to sponsor an ad, I feel like I'd either look too serious or too artificially happy.
Delete this
- Squarespace
BLINK TWICE IF YOU NEED HELP
He always has a death stare
Void: *used joker as a example right away*
Mkleo: “Crap,I’m screwed”
The struggle of being a Joker main
@@cryguy0000 "struggle"
yolker
Mimiko Ishikawa I miss down gun
@@nrm236 The struggle to be remotely as good and cool as Mkleo. Duh. :P
If square space is holding you hostage blink twice VoiD we'll come get you
Void doesn't blink in the first place how is he gonna tell us
1:12
go get him boys
"Let's call this hitstun + 2"
I can't even keep track of my stocks this is crazy math
"Max Combo - 102"
Yup, that's definitely Void's account.
Well pichu is a lot multi hits
My man getting SPONSORS out here let's go
I kinda knew this without thinking about it but void made it sound like a math teacher explaining the pythagorean theorem
That is such a good Video, I've always wondered why Top players dont talk/discuss these things in Videos because new players dont dive this deep into the game
We need more ppl to do these vids
Isaac Mendez there are tons of good resources in the community if you know where to look. Larry Lurr posts a lot of different important information about characters and how to fight them, ZeRo has some interesting commentaries on games between pro players, Beefy Smash Dudes has some in depth labbing stuff on their channel, and then there are smaller channels like Frenzy Light that post basic combo tutorials
I've tried really hard to avoid getting into frame data, cuz that leads to labbing, and I'm lazy. But honestly this is a good amount of info just for now.
I'm the same
get what you give!
not that there's anything wrong with not wanting to get more into smash.
as long as you have fun!
framedata is actually really intuitive, you dont realize it because you just think its overwhelming and confusing numbers. to help that realization i think looking at the hitbox data helps as well because you see whats happening visually. this automatically lets you think about your own character, things that you have done, or other characters and situations you have been in against them, or just seeing their moves.
the hard part is having to keep up on all of it because you may not be someone who can focus their time on such unless you decide to dedicate your time into things like fighting games well. in addition to that is knowing what to do with that new found knowledge, you cant just learn framedata and hitboxes and that be it, unless your an ai programmed to do such in the moment or overtime. in voids examples, he already knows about pichus downthrow comboing into an aerial move, he knows characters like joker, wolf, luigi and palu and their options such as those to escape combos. the most difficult part is learning this well, to be able to do it as if it is natural to do so. thats how pro players have such great movement, comfort, and responsiveness. they no longer focus on what to do because they know how, now they just need to know what and what not to use and when to do so.
apart from implementation, what makes figuring out combos or movement difficult is the randomness of situations.
voids recent learning of the rain drop combo must be specifically done with the opponent being lead into the air above a platform on stage, and it must be done so in a way that the moves work, can connect and have all of those moves work in that time and space. the opponent must have certain a percentage of damage dealt to them, the players must be in a specific position, the moves chosen must be most optimal for such to happen to cause the event, the opponent must be put in a situation that allows that option to occur and well, there must be enough space after the initial start of the combo to allow double uair especially through a platform, the opponent must land in an area that leads to a confirmed kill move most specifically the platform itself to lead into the sweet spot of sheik's up smash, the opponent must be at a percentage or position on a certain stage that leads them into the blast zone efficiently to achieve the kill.
majority of this may or may not happen in the background, you may already know the percentages, have character and stage knowledge, know how to combo with uair, etc. etc. but this helps show what goes on in general that creates the resulting scenario from practically nothing.
the hitbox data also gives a lot more then just numbers and something to look at as it shows whats happening while playing, and you can utilize that to also get a start on the creation of combos whether it gives you an idea to start on, helps an old idea, leads to better understanding situations or combos already made, or even eliminating what works or not because even though not obtaining something sounds negative, you narrow options down to eventually find such which is better then nothing, etc. etc.
Lazy huh? Youll never git gud
DaFysty1 you should at least know your main's frame data so you know when you can punish certain moves with your own moves
This is really important to know as an Inkling main.Up throw up air doesn’t work on Luigi cause he can escape on Frame 1. Plus a lot of new Inkling players always ask why the combo counter doesn’t work when doing up throw up air on certain characters, like Mario. This video explains perfectly why! Happy you addressed this!
Luigi has had a frame 1 combo breaker since melee
VoiD's made it he's sponsored by squarespace
Sometimes it’s all about waiting to see how your opponent will try and get out of the combo, then continue it
that is true but I think the whole point of the video is to dive into the combo concept much deeper than just "oh this is generally true, if not just bait their options out".
Rather, Void is implying that we can increase our chances at optimizing combos by choosing specific combos/extensions that will cover their frame options so we avoid having to risk stopping a combo to bait your opponents out which can cause you to lose momentum if you didnt get a read.
Generally speaking against top level players, stopping a combo short just to try to get a read for an extension is risky because you lose potential damage/pressure in hoping you expect a top level player to have a certain habit. Top players do have habits but are more conscious of habits than other players.
Also this idea void is giving for combos is a quick way to understand what combos work on 70+characters rather than having to individually test EACH combo on each character with different DI. That takes a very long time to test because of so many factors. Using this generic idea, you can get a grasp of what extensions you can choose for different characters.
@@starter497 This is a fantastic summary of the gist of the video.
I'm wondering like if Sheik isn't actually covering jump with bouncing fish but fails VS airdodge...
bruh i clicked so fast as if ill actually be good after this
love u VoiD u rnt the reason
it's pretty great to see more classical fgc concepts like this become more mainstream. obviously this is a basic intro but just to get people to study this is really great at a more widespread level
These are basically just frame traps, but explained way better than any other player. I don't get why people are confused by adding a couple of frames to a hitstun window, hold buffering makes it really easy to cover these and objectively know whether a follow up comes before an escape. That being said this is a really smart system for extending true combos depending on the matchup.
There’s MATH in a video game. Damn my math teachers weren’t fooling when they said math is everywhere
Omar Aly frame data is something you need to learn in any fighting game
You sound really stupid in this comment
@@mateotheweeb_8258 uh
Damn i guess
I’m pretty sure the math would help in smash bros, it probably is easier to not have to react to everything and be able to get better guesses what’s coming next
Thank you so much for this video, I've had to explain this to people so many times, now I can just link to this.
Another good rule of thumb is that combos into grab where your opponent is grounded when hitstun ends (drag downs that don't cause tumble, and some low percent combos) are more lenient than other similar combos (generally hitstun+1/+2) since shield is most characters only frame 1 option on the ground (watch out for characters with frame 1 jabs though).
I hope to increase my mental strength to improve in smash and in life. I feel as I'm not as quick witted as I should be. But I'm working on it.
Speaking from experience, I can tell you that worrying about your wits does essentially nothing but stifle them. Make sure to practice as often as you can while still enjoying it, and vary your practice strategies. For example: play tons of online matches, pause during an offline match with a lvl 9 cpu and think about what your best options are in certain situations then try to act on your thoughts, watch top players, etc. and I’m sure you’ll get better soon enough. On the subject of improving mental strength in life, most of the things I said apply to everything in life so do with it as you will! Good luck!
Try get in the flow and be comfortable when playing, get most of the game into your System 1 and then allow system 2 to analyze your opponent :]
@@Mom-dj8wp I appreciate you're advice! Unfortunately, this is a problem that affects me throughout my life, not just smash. I'm fixing things like my sleep schedule, water intake, Omega 3s intake, trying to read more, etc. I figured it's affecting my gameplay as well. Just more the reason to work on improving my mental strength as a person. I'm not too worried, I'm hope for the future :)
@@caasinom8008 I actually go to tournaments consistently (not the past few weeks because social distancing). I'm a bit slow to react because I get a jam in my brain before I can act, even if I'm not empirically thinking. I just feel as I need to work on more mentally draining aspects of the game like conditioning, optimal punish, and character knowledge. I'm not dissing on myself at all, I think I'm quite good for someone who doesn't own a switch. My highest run at a tournament was 4-2. I appreciate your input, thank you so much
@@dallinkoger5533 yeah everything you're doing sounds like healthy steps so I wish you the best of luck. I think I struggle in somewhat similar aspects of the game but it's all a work in progress. Smash is sick
Bubble Theory Pog
JigChu :3 hbox has entered the chat
sonny hi hbox :)
If you apply this to sheik you get a so many nice options (these are just optimized throw combos):
0-20% fthrow > dash > full hop fair > nair > fair/up air/what ever you want (works on frame 3 airdodge and slower and on fastfallers you can follow them because they always be under you)
15-35% Dthrow >dash > jump > double jump > fair > up air dd *or* nair > anything; if the opponent has frame 1 escape option or is at lower %. Fair "true" combos into nair at ~20% and into upair ~25% (I am not 100% sure since I tested this quit a while ago). This combo is similar to what Falco players call active hop/jump
35-50% fthrow > dash > full hop fair > dj fair > upair dd > anything; this can be DIed really hard and you may need to go for a nair or fair at the end and the fthrow is really DIable as well
This is very impressive. I was waiting for this
Square space
Thanks squarespace now my combos are sicker than corona.
I think this is really cool! Can you go into detail about your theory behind optimizing combo routes as well? I'm interested to hear what your thought process is as soon as you land a launcher and why you select the combos that you do over others.
Void’s Pichu: *max combo of 102* Me: wAT
Probably bair loops
Another important thing to remember is many attacks in this game gain more advantage on hit the higher the opponents %s & your built rage.
This made me think a lot about greninja DA to fair. Most of the time it will not register as a true combo but it will hit unless the character has a frame 1 option.
No better place to learn combo theory than from the best player at combos
This is super dope! Really cool info, and probably something that I could see a lot of people applying and making charts for the characters.
You always remind me of a mad scientist with your hair when you get into frame data. So, thanks for being the crazy genius and passing on your knowledge!
Well i was kind of expecting a lot more from this video. Like how to build consistent combos in ultimate. This is nice in terms of frame data understanding, but i find it just a little too short
Keep making content of this caliber, and your yt is sure to thrive
We need more content like this
this is such a great video dude. like.. this is soooooo good.
Was looking for a video like this, your explanation is awesome!
Yoshi laughing in double jump
Voids a full on philosopher lol. Socrates playing smash basically
WAIT, THIS IS ACTUALLY GODLIKE
Man, anytime I'd lose with shiek I'd think, No kill power, and regret it and wished Id become someone middle weight, risky ass character, I respect the simple fact you could thrive with shiek
Sheik isn't bad. Get better bud
@@nathanl8769 never said he was bad bud, read what I said i just respect him for using a hard character
Void is actually one of my favorite players. fuck yes
For those who are wondering, the songs are by Lakey Inspired
Thank you
Duck Hunt has a frame 1 escape with trickshot can
There is so much things to lab with this knowledge, we can optimize everything with every character, but wow, this will take a lot of time
Sorry, the only theory I need is Hboxs Bubble Theory
Actually tho, this is really cool Void great work!
He just seems so genuine idk why haha
This is actually pretty smart
I've thought about this a lot in the past but didn't think it was that big brained, I thought it was common knowledge
Yeah the way he explains it has more depth to it.
@@rookeyji5177 Definitely, it was good for helping lower level and probably lots of other players understand an extra bit of depth to doing combos.
I was thinking about this just a couple days ago actually :o
Your my favorite smasher. No one else can play sheik with such precision.. That serious skill.
void lookin and soundin like a mad scientist
You were always my favorite smash player I fucking love you bro
Time to send Void my 103 hit Pichu combo video
Yo the stubble looks nice man
Can't wait to see more vids like this! It's videos like these that I subscribe to you for. Love ya
Super well made video :)
yoshi’s double jump: am i a joke to you?
Yo I didn’t know about this one thing until today: that you can press two jump buttons together to do an auto short hop, and if you’re holding down while inputting an aerial, it auto fast falls! Also didn’t know about pivot tilts, they are very useful
Powdy Cat you should check out izaw smash channel
By far the most insightful video in regards to ultimate's combo system I've ever seen.
Seems like you haven’t search enough on yt
@@rairudokohai594 idk man, outside of GimR no one seems to have a competitive consensus on true combos. The beefy smash doods say contradictory stuff all the time for example
Thanks dawg great video
Void’s Combo Theory
Well then, i have to go find and recollect my lost braincells now, thank you void...
Void, you gonna start doing any “First to 10’s” with anyone? I’d like to see you play MKleo or Samsora. I personally think you’re better being my favorite Pro player
This video give me the same vibes as that employee at Best Buy explaining the difference between the juice and sauce
rlly good tutorial/theory :)
Nice! I always do wonder why I keep getting hit by the tornado move
With this knowledge I will expand my Ganondorf down throw combo: instead of down throw to up air I shall down throw to neutral air
Void looking mad healthy!
"again thank you squarespace for sponsoring this video... I actually really love squarespace..." He either really loves squarespace or they're holding him hostage
What about getup attack ?
Anybody have a tier list type chart on character's fastest escape options? Like frame 1 tier frame 2 tier etc.?
You kinda have a good idea Void but you also have to put into a count there DI and response time and reflex like say your playing Pichu vs Marth and do the down throw to fair and he reacts with up b you can wait that out and punish him or even shield then grab him again like smash to me is like chess you move and do stuff but when you hard punish someone there in check and if they can't do anything by any means then checkmate and there's your stock or worse your game or set so there other things to keep track of besides hitstun and little frames to stun+3
Great video henry!
"It's not a true combo, but all you have to do is hit them again in a 3 millisecond window."
Did he say ms? Should be frames? Like ~60 ms
Void You are my favorite smash player, I love you because you inspire me to play Pichu and I watch all your videos and I would love to talk to you someday!
The Weeknd is playing Smash and teaching me how to combo, 2020 is Wild.
yes it helps, thank you void!
Time 8:21 cat had a 4 frame walk by.
The guy behind you is watching and got inspired by this vid
When are you coming back to visit Hawai’i Void???
I am so proud of void for wearing a haikyuu!! Shirt!
That's so big brain
Void Guides
The square space segments man
daniel caesar outro sounds so clean
My guy got scientist hair.
This video was really informative and interesting, I kinda wish you coild go further with more complicated examples. Is there a place where I can find optimal escape options and the frames for those options for every character?
VoiD comboing with Sheik with his third eye open be like
Combos are awesome! Someone took 70% and just got comboed across the entire stage with my Diddy. XD
Void is one of the most intellectual smash players around no cap
Thank you, Henry
Wow this is really good video. Actually I didn't know airdodge had different frame values for each character. Is frame 2 the fastest?
I believe it is, but PT for example has a frame 1 down b switch and there are other options like that
Bayo has a frame 1 air dodge with her bat within
What about Yoshi's double jump armour?
Did you not mention it because you forgot about it or is there really nothing you can do about it.
Figured this out when I started combining bowser and dk lol
We need bubble theory in ultimate
thank you CLG Henry
Did he forget that air dodges cancels hit stun? It’s super janky cause the amount you can cancel increases according to a formula the higher you go
Is your outro music Blessed by Daniel Caesar? I just got into him a month or two ago and I had to double take for a second when I heard it haha
Yall are making fun of how Void presents Square Space. Nah guys, that's just the Void stare. It's effective at reverse 3-0ing and an effective sales tactic :)
thank you, henry
I assume DI would also be taken into account, since that means you need to take more time (frames) for your hitbox to contact them.