Rock Wool Does Not Sound Proof
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- Опубликовано: 18 май 2018
- Here I talk about the mix-up between sound-proofing and acoustic treatment and how some of the absorbent products are misused.
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Music: "What Makes People" by Jimmy D.Lane
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Love it man! As a lifelong audio student and professional engineer it is always painful to constantly explain this to musicians lol.
Hello Sir. A Question: Wouldnt stiff heavy and dense terrain Rockwool put in a stud partition wall both absorb resonance in that cavity as well as stop sound transmission, a little bit better that the lightweight stuff? You know, more mass, more isolation?
Thanks for posting this. I wanted to understand what's involved in soundproofing a small stuido space in my house that I want to build. Having worked for an architect and on movie theatres, etc., I had a bit of a grasp of what's needed but I'm still learning more. I never realized how inefficient insulation is with respect to the soundproofing vs absorption. Of course there's a lot of misinformation out there so we need people like you who explain it well and connet the dots as it were!
Fantastic video,as an audio engineer of nearly a decade who used to work with a music community network building up many of the local studios we used to get dropped jaws when we told them to buy fiberglass instead of rockwool for their panels but never once did we ever get a complaint about performance, people don't realise that sound proofing is a whole other beast entirely and to truly and completely sound proof a room you need a lot of dense material between you and the sound source, my old university lecturer used to say you need a bunker made of thick concrete cinder blocks enclosed in another bunker made of the same to truly sound proof something
Thank you, sir. 😊
So It is best not to have an air gap between the walls ? I am building a 12 x 15 drum room in my pole barn and I will hopefully be able to use glass mineral wool R19 insulation non faced bats. And I will be building a room inside of a room . I am in need of the right direction. Thanks
Thx fo the info John, I’m building a brick wall to brick wall with 10cm air gap, that should be enough with for a drum studio right?
I feel bad for you, so many confused people in the comments hating on you.
You're right though, thanks for helping a few people save money.
Great suggestions. I am re-vamping a garage with cinder block walls into a studio. Should the inner wall be 2 inches from the brick leaving a 2 inch air gap? Looking forward to an answer. Cheers
Eric, do a site evaluation first to determine how much noise you have to block. If you are building a mix room only, you can do well with only STC-55 to 60, which can be done with an 8" grout-filled block wall.
See "Assessing the Environment" on my resources page and send me an email. John@jhbrandt.net
One more question. "fill cavities full". What about basement ceilings where you have 10" joists? Seems like most people put 6" fiberglass bats in the ceiling and there is a leftover 3" gap above the insulation. Would it matter if gap is at the top of the bottom of the cavity?
I’m new to your channel, so please excuse this question if you already have answered it elsewhere. If it is not so much the insulation that soundproofs, then is it building separate walls not physically attached to the outer walls that soundproofs?
That is correct. Massive walls also will do a fair job at sound proofing. Building code requires about STC-50 between condos and apartments in many cities. And that is accomplished with mass rather than a decoupled structure. As a rule, if you only need about 55 dB of isolation, a regular structure will do the job. Higher STL requirements will need decoupled elements.
plz simple question! can i make panel with fiberglass and cover it with fabric and put it in my bedroom ?
A lot of people are confusing treating your studio acoustics and rooms frequency response with soundproofing which are two very different things.
Sound proofing would be (ideally) completely blocking outside sound from coming in or inside sound going out, which absorption materials are poor at due to too low a density or mass.
Inside the studio we WANT absorbtion and not reflection because we don't want our room to be too coloured by all the sound bouncing around. We want to absorb it so that the sound that reaches our ears is from the source, not a delayed coloured from the walls or ceilings reflections, and the lower the note, the thicker the absorbtion (we can't just use more mass or it would start to become more reflective).
They are just simply two different things, and he is saying don't use the wrong material for the job, and he is bang on.
You don't use absorbtion material for soundproofing, because all you get is attenuation. iirc its mass/density that is required for soundproofing. Could be wrong there though 🤔
Nailed it! Excellent summary. 👍
Thanks for the advice John, you just saved me £60. I will double up the thickness of the plaster board instead
One of the Best Ideas of SoundProofing is "SoundProof Curtains" it actually Block outside Noise coming from Windows. Check Here: livesoundproof.com/best-soundproof-curtains/
Very interesting video thankyou. If building a 4" metal stud wall, am I better off filling the 'void' with drywall rather than Rockwool?
Of course you should fill the void with Rockwool or fiberglass. Doing so will add at least 5-6 dB more sound transmission loss. ☺️
Thanks for the video! Can you use a gypsum board to make a window plug to block traffic/outside noise?
Of course! Mass and seal constitutes 'sound-proofing' :)
Hi John, Does the lightweight fibre glass also mea Low density fibre glass wool that comes attached to a foil?
Yes!
John, I ended up being Rockwool Safe n Sound and it was really easy to install and it costs pre-tax $7 more than other batts per bag... and because it was far faster to install the savings vs paying more to my GC to install the fluffy pink stuff, more than offset the price difference. Yes, I had to special order the 24" size AND I needed to buy a minimum for free shipping (but I can return any unused bags).
Great video!
What do you suggest to buy for better (dampened) studio accoustic?
I was going to make DIY rockwool panels, but glad I watched this first.
Is there any DIY with better sound absorption than cheap foam?
Martin B, for your ACOUSTICS, it depends on the thickness required. Normally for acoustic control in an enclosure, you should use broadband trapping appropriate for the room (dimensions) and I normally recommend either glass wool or rock wool with a density of 10 - 15 kg/m3. That's the lightweight stuff. This video is about 'soundproofing' with means 'blocking sound' from getting in or out.
You can send me an email. :D john@jhbrandt.net
How do I block.sound on the door thati do not use . Door is between my apt. and my apt? NOISE is caming from my neighbours apt.
I can hear him sneese, cough, tv all nigh wakes me up.
I cant take it anymore. Please help.
Sir you haven't been very active I admire you very much, I was wondering about your opinion on blankets/curtains for soundproofing? I know they're not a lot of mass but people are still using it for windows/doors
Interesting. So I have a room mildly covered in acoustic panels. Right now I want to treat my mix area and ceiling but I don't want to use those 12 x 12 2 inch panels. So what would be better to hang Rock Wool or Owens Corning???
It depends. Send me an email. 😉
John@jhbrandt.net
Hey, I wanted to ask if I cover the windows and doors of a room properly with rockwool, will it help in reducing noice going into the neighbors house when I play loud music or guitar? Thanks
no, sir. I'm sorry but the most you will achieve from any fiber absorption is -10 dB. That's the most. The usual attenuation from fiber is only around 3 to 4 dB. No kind of fiber will soundproof. I know that advertisers have soundproofing claims for their products but it's just marketing (lies or misconceptions)
What you need is mass and seal. So cover your windows with thick laminated glass (massive, heavy) and seal it well. THAT will do up to -30 dB. If you need specific noise reduction contact a registered/verified acoustic consultant. :)
Hi John, great video! Does rock wool works as an acoustic treatment at least? I need to move my sound editing studio into one of my rooms. I found countless DIY projects for acoustic panels filled with Rock wool. Does that work? The room where I want to put my editing suite is empty and there is lots of reverb. I want to treat it acoustically so I can start working there.
Yes, Rockwool is a good acoustic absorber, but lightweight fiberglass is better. See my resources page, "Broadband Absorption" and "Sound waves in Air and Fiber"
Agree so much on this topic. But question.
If building accountic panels for room managment (think homes theater) where I am building add on panels (wood framed, fabic wrapped) does the rockwool / mineral wool not have an advantage there with its increased density?
Sorry for the late reply, Chris.
The increased density CAN cause it to be reflective. I have done many tests that show 4" of the average density Rockwool to be too reflective. You are better off with 1" Rockwool against the wall with the rest of the treatment thickness made up with low density glasswool (fiberglass) for a most effective and efficient trap.
Hi I'm building a wooden hut in my garden that will be a place where I can dj.
I was going to insulated the walls with rockwool, then fit sound breaker bars on top of that then plaster board over the top.
Will this reduce the noise on the outside for neighbours etc.
What would you recommended?
Yes, that works. But you are experimenting. I'm sure that, if you seal the inside and outside, you will have some reduction in sound but how much?
Go to my resources page and download "Soundproofing - the Quest" and "How to find out how much Isolation you need"
There is also the CNRC document with testing data for wall assemblies. ir-761
i want to make kind of "gaming room" with my brothers, we shout a lot. How do i keep the noise inside?
Hi John! I´m a singer in progress and I want to build a cabin inside my room (is a big room) for keeping my voice away from the ears of my neighbors and be able to practice at anytime. Just to have "a place where I can scream and don´t bother anyone" I don´t care the temperature and the cabin would be like a cube 2Mts x 2 Mts x 2Mts. I was about to buy the RockWool but after this video I doubt it. Which do you think is the best material for this propose? Thanks for your advice in advance! :D
Jorge Higginson, you should join my little group on Facebook.
facebook.com/groups/2117683811849990/
All these things are discussed.
So if I understand what I read from your paper correctly, any fibrous insulation will do to fill the cavity & absorb sound BUT it shouldn’t be too dense or it may have a counterproductive coupling effect, so better to go with batts that have low to mid r values? I’d read this somewhere else prior as well so just wanted to be sure I understood that correctly as I had been wondering if loose fill might be needed to prevent coupling even, but apparently it shouldn’t
be a concern so long as the batts aren’t too heavy/densely packed within the cavities?
Chris, that is correct. I HAVE noticed in the tested comparisons of lightweight fiber vs blown-in cellulose fiber that the STC is reduced when the cellulose fiber is used. It COULD be due to compaction and that will couple the walls slightly. It's important to be aware of these small details.
That makes perfect sense. And if cellulose is compacting in one area that means it is also creating some open space someplace else. Thank you!
Thanks for your time and effort to make this video. I am in the process of opening a children's soft play centre and u have just saved me thousands as i was going to order Rock wool for the walls. Any advice would be appreciated. Merry Christmas and a happy New year. From UK
Send me an email and let's schedule a free interview via zoom.us
John@jhbrandt.net
@Laura Brown I thank u Laura Brown
Hi! Interesting conversation.. Glad I found your channel! I'm currently looking at sound proofing a townhouse common wall that has become a problem between us and a neighbour in our bedroom as well as one exterior wall. I am concerned about high and low frequencies such as bass or thuds as well as talking etc through the wall. Was going to go with Rockwool Safe and Sound from home depot as the insulation but also put a layer of silverboard overtop (good for reflecting sound and reducing or canceling out EMI radiation from multiple WIFIs in the area as well as reflecting heat back) and then a normal layer of drywall over top with that green acoustic caulking in between. Do you recommend this setup for the best possible setup for a relatively low budget? Also, what other products are there that can reduce or reflect low frequency sound. Thanks!
It's usually a system that is required rather than any particular component or product. If you need personal help, send me an email. John@jhbrandt.net
If it's a pair of townhouses with a conjoined wall you may be required to use rock wool, by code, for other reasons, such as fire resistance. I don't know if there is much appreciable difference between Rockwool/Roxul Safe and Sound, and the regular Rockwool insulation, which is $10 cheaper though. I packed a wet wall between a kitchen an bathroom with regular Roxul, and it attenuated, but didn't eliminate, the noise from the pipes, or more likely the noise of the pipes resonating inside the wall cavity. If it's a wall with plumbing in it I would go for regular Roxul/Rockwool over fiberglass for the fact that if there is a leak the Roxul won't absorb water like fiberglass will.
@@a.fritzbecker8986 Yes indeed. Rockwool is often used as a fire-block as well. If you need the pipes dampened, we have successfully used sticky-backed MLV applied directly to the pipes for quite a high noise attenuation. It is always best, if you can, to make sure that the pipes are not rigidly connected to the walls or structure anywhere. ;)
What is the best sound proofing? Glasswool or rockwool...plz tell
This is like asking if paper or cloth is better for making a drinking glass. His point is that you need mass (something heavy) and to seal things well. So a PERFECTLY soundproofing wall with a hole in it won't do the job. Mass + Seal is his solution. Adding the cheaper of the two you asked about INSIDE a wall is a good idea, but it's mostly the mass and seal that will give you the results you want. Once you have your wall, the cheaper of the two you asked about would be useful to absorb reflections WITHIN your treated space, to reduce reverb. But they won't do a lot to block sound from the outside.
Buy MLV, mass loaded vinyl, expensive but effective, it weights 10 to 5 kg per square meter.
Better than that is lead.
Maybe you will help meJohn? I want sound BLOCKING. (I believe that's what you're talking about hear, but I have found too many different opinions and am now confused! I have misophonia and need my bedroom sound-proofed (nothing to do with making music or movies sound better -nothing to do with acoustic betterment.) I love the way wood looks but have read it isn't so good for quiet. But I want whatever I get to look decent. Please recommend something to me. Also, is there a difference between rock wool and mineral wool?
I understand. I have a few clients who have trouble with noises; misophonia, Hyperacusis, and PTSD... The only option is to have a soundproof room or sleeping quarters. This can ONLY be accomplished with mass and seal. Please contact me at john@jhbrandt.net and we can set up a time to meet via zoom. My first consultation is always free.
Is this demo and conversation about Roxul Safe 'n Sound, or some other product?
I am trying to clear up the misunderstanding about fiber absorption and soundproofing.
When I say Rockwool, I mean ANY FIBER absorption product. 😉
@@JHBrandt so what work ??
@@organicfireorganicfire1236 Mass and seal, my friend. Mass and seal.
Fiber is only a small part of the system. It does not Soundproof by itself 😎
Thanks sir, is AAC block really good at soundproofing?!
How a block without much mass and density can be good at soundproofing?
Some websites claim AAC block is best block for soundproofing
Thanks for this vid. I recently purchased 26 rigid fibre insulation panels unfaced - 1500mm X 2400mm.. 50mm thick. (I think it's for large air duct work.. was a good deal) It's enough to do 2 layers on a 3m square room @ 2400mm height, which my rough plan was to make that (drums) room in my garage.. freestanding straight on the concrete floor. Basically just the insulation panels and minimal steel non load bearing frames to hold them..+ door(s) I had thought, if I do this 2 layers of 50mm rigid insulation with a 50mm air gap between that it would dull the sound transmission a decent amount. But I don't want to even bother if it's no better than having my drums in a spare room in the house. I could put the panels to better use making traps etc... I think? Or treat the entire garage maybe. In Looking into leaf systems and them all having to do with resonance tuning.. I'm not even sure if the air gap is relevant between rigid insulation panels instead of proper hard mass leaf sides. I'm still a bit confused.. I kind of want to try my plan just for experiment/experience sake, but then there's some cost there in the framing. Any input appreciated 👍
how is it working
?
John have you looked into sheep wool and hemp as alternatives to this at all? There are some wood derived high density panels also. All seem to be a good direct replacement for mineral wools and fibreglass potentially
I am an eternal skeptic - UNTIL it has been tested. I'm currently testing many materials that we thought had worked in certain ways and finding that we were WRONG!
It's best not to assume and get it tested. I am using the world's largest reverberation room, rated to 25 Hz. nwaalabs.com
Hey John... So my understanding is Rockwool on itself is just for treating the room (i.e. acoustic panel stuff) and not for complete sound proof insulation. Am I getting it R8 or am I missing something ???
Joseph, Rockwool is used IN the walls and in treatment. But it doesn't soundproof. Not by itself. Yes, it is often used as a treatment for the velocity region but adding it to your walls does not increase the transmission loss the way you would think. Massive bricks of Rockwool in a wall do not improve sound transmission loss over lighter weight solutions.
Use the fiber insulation for filling the wall cavities, yes. You can use rockwool or fiberglass, depending on your other requirements. :D
Please see my resources page "Absorption Coefficient (CONSTANT) where you can see the level of attenuation per frequency at any coefficient. NOTE: If a company shows you a chart depicting a response curve that goes down to 20 or 30 Hz, be very skeptical. ;) You have to look at WHERE the line crosses a coefficient... Example: an absorption coefficient of 0.7 means that at THAT frequency, the level is attenuated about 3.6 dB. - Therefore, ignore EVERYTHING below 0.7.
@@JHBrandt Thanks a lot John... Much helpful ❤
Hey Brant. Thanks for sharing great information. Liked it. So you’re saying lightweight mineral wools (glasswool?) enough for soundproofing?
Erikson, No. There is no fiber or absorption product that can soundproof by itself. :D
Hey I’m trying to build a sound booth for recording vocals. Is it a smart idea to put rock wool inside of the walls?
Yes, of course. Please see my videos on isolation. 😊
@@JHBrandt but will it make it “soundproof” or close enough to where I shouldn’t have any issues
@@no.1noone179 No. It will not make it soundproof. Actually, there is no such thing as soundproof except in space. You have to have a vacuum between the buildings to be sound 'proof'. :D
Don't guess. you need to KNOW how much you need at each 1/3 octave band in the audible spectrum. Send me an email - john@jhbrandt.net
Let say I as a non musician want to "soundproof" outside sounds not very loud sounds, rockwool would work for this instance?
No, sir. Rockwool does not Soundproof.
Only mass and seal works for any useful soundproofing
when you say fill the cavity is it not ideal to have a gap, albeit small, between wall facing, then insulation then wall cavity again. that is the insulation doesn't touch the edges. I'm thinking in particular with a floor assembly. or is isolating the lightweight insulation in the middle of the assembly not really significant?
Andrew, correct. It's not a problem that lightweight insulation touches both partitions. It's more important to have a full fill for maximum isolation.
I'd like to make my bedroom quieter. Most of the sound comes through the window. I plan to make a window plug with 5/8" MDF board and R-13 insulation to fill the 3" air gap. Do you think the insulation will really help and is worth the expense?
Yes, of course. The added insulation ADDS to the sound transmission loss. It is the MDF board that does the sound blocking. Be sure to seal it well. Remember that where air goes, so does sound. ;)
@@JHBrandt Does the insulation work equally well across the frequency spectrum? I'm more interested in quieting the low frequency range
@@veryslyfox no it doesn't. Fiber has certain acoustical properties. It works in the velocity region.
Fiber in the wall cavity absorbs the cavity resonances and IMPROVES the STL of the partitions
i can assure you100% that it does sound proof.. i had problems when i was mixing or producing music with my neighbours. we treated the whole room just with rockwool.. now the sound is not coming out of the studio at all.we had to use about 20cm on all walls but it worked 100% ..everyone is happy..its even raining really bad some days and i cant hear anything when i am inside..my father is a house builder..they covered many offices with rockwool to soundproof them..and yes it works if you know how to use it! About acoustic treatment rockwool its good for mid and lows ,but it depends on how fat you will add..for example at 20-50cm it will work as bass trap ..from 10-20 cm is good for mid and lows
I'm happy that you solved your problem, but you are mistaken about the 'reasons'. You have to 'test' this hypothesis before making a claim. Your claim is NO different from annecdotal claims that having a crystal on your desk will improve your mental focus and no amount of magic toilet paper, lucky socks, crystal speaker stands, or Jumbo's feather will make things work 'better'. Because you placed an extreme amount of absorption in the room and it attenuated the sound enough so that the perceived level outside your studio area was acceptable proves my points entirely. Absorption in the room will remove some of the vibrational energy. If there is less energy to escape the room, that constitutes an adequate reduction in the sound escaping.
Rock wool does not sound proof. It absorbs. Please read my paper - www.jhbrandt.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Sound-waves-in-Air-and-Fiber.pdf
I can't believe how thick your sound proof wall. What I want is a thinnest sound proof installation for my room.
And for insulate a wooden roof? From one floor to another? Need to insulate steps and voices?
thats because you didnt have any insulation in the first place?
How can someone know if the inner walls in our apartment have insulation?
So if I use some form of insulation in my set up im only doing a very small room(room inside a room) would chalking the air gaps paired with the insulation in wooden walls which would consist of ply, MDF and pine. The pine would be 2x4(old wood so actually 2x4) and 10 mm ply and 3-5mm mdf what about of sound proofing would this give me? How much would I benefit from thicker walls? And how much further benefit would acoustic foam provide me?
Thanks
Thicker isn't always better. You should consult a professional to get the sound transmission loss that you need. As far as 'how much soundproofing' the described should give - I don't know. I would need to run the numbers. What you need to find out is how many dB reduction is needed per 1/3rd octave band. Acoustic foam will provide NOTHING for soundproofing.
Hi John, great video. I am currently moving to a new apartment, which has a "shelter room" (basically a room fortified with concrete, so it may withstand bombs/rockets). I plan to have a drum set in this room, and I want to reduce the noise from those drums as much as I can. Would you recommend not to use rockwool to reduce the noise? Its a fairly small room, with a heavy metal door. I am completely inexperienced here and any advice you give me will be very much appreciated
MrAmirkedar - Just curious as to what you ended up doing in the concrete room? I’m in a flat and wanting to build a drum riser for my electric kit and I’m doing research on how to minimise the sound of the bass-drum pedals.
I needs to practice, man! 😂
I would have thought that the kit would be very loud whilst inside a concrete room, but how soundproof is it from the outside?
hello do you do consultations for people trying to block out sounds from impact noise from abusvie neighbours
Every day, sir. Please contact me via email - john@jhbrandt.net
how do you install fiberglass?
Hey John. Where do vents go? Can we put ventilation baffles inside the wall cavities? Like in-between a double wall system? I will end up with a 3 foot space between ceiling and roof and I want to use this space for air transfer while isolating sound as much as possible. Bad idea?
A very good question, sir.
If you have a two-partition assembly, you will need baffles and attenuation of sound on each side of the partitions. The baffles will extend the mass of the partition while using absorbing material in the ducts along with pressure-changing cavities in the baffles to further attenuate sound. Wherever air goes, so goes sound.
The space between the partitions must not be coupled with anything rigid like galvanized ducting. Use flexible connectors. This is common for HVAC systems to prevent vibrations from following the lines.
So snaking 6 feet(or so) of insulated flexible ducting through a large ceiling cavity would not be enough. I would want baffle boxes on both side. One on each side of partition for both intake and out take. That would be four baffle boxes?> @@JHBrandt
@@michaelangell9535 It really depends on the situation and design. That is what I have done in many builds. And we have no problems with sound transfer.
Your method may work well for your situation. I don't know.
In a 2x4 double stud system I'm not filling the bay completely. I just want it in against one side. Do recommend faced or un-faced insulation in this application? Seems like faced won't sag..
Faced. Easier to deal with and install. The vapor barrier may or may not be required but will not interfere with the acoustic properties of the construction.
@@JHBrandt I'm planning on the ceiling also being a double stud system using 2x6's. How do I get the R19 to press firmly against the upper drywall? I can staple it close in.. but would it compress, pull away or sag with time?. How important is contact with drywall?
@@michaelangell9535 the insulation doesn't need to press against the drywall. It only needs to be in the ceiling cavity.
@@JHBrandt Thank you! Vary helpful. Here's the $6000 dollar question. Will a double stud system allow a rock band to play till 9pm in a residential neighborhood? Some internet people say it does NOTHING for frequencies bellow 125hz. Im reaching out to people with practical experience.
@@michaelangell9535 we should talk. DIY design fails 99% of the time. My email is john@jhbrandt.net
What would you suggest insulating an attic to reduce noise for small airplanes flying over? Blown in fiberglass, rock wool?
You need an isolated structure system. The most that any absorber, like Rockwool, can do is 10 decibels.
SIR DOES 4MM PLAY+ ROCKWOOL+ 4MM PLAY DO A GOOD SOUND PROOF DOOR?
I think it would have helped to touch on what it would take to achieve or even come close to a sound proof room. I think a lot of people are assuming that getting insulation right is all it takes.
You are right, of course. I have been meaning to that but my work has kept me from it. I'll try to do that soon. 😊
ATS Acoustics Rigid Fiberglass Board, 2 Inch, 3 lb (6PK)$56.95 VS. Roxul Rockboard 60,
Mineral Wool Board, 2 Inch (6PK)$53.49. I agree with your tech but not with your cost assessment. The ATS stuff is the same as Corning 703 the industry standard. Roxul 60 and Corning 703 stand head to head in acoustic absorption across all frequencies and yes, do virtually nothing below 500Hz. If you buy the Corning brand you will pay even more and get nothing in return. I searched several on line retailers that sell acoustic supplies and got the same results. What you get with Rockwool is the manufacturing process bakes out most of the formaldehyde binder and the fibers are much less damaging to skin, eyes and lungs than fiberglass. I build recording studios for a living and would choose Rockwool any day over fiberglass. I will also state I have no affiliation with ATS and have never done business with them, what I posted here is just an example of what I found across all my research. These prices are for small quantities but clearly show Rockwool is cheaper. Bulk purchases should yield ever deeper discounts.
I made a mistake in my assessment above. Roxul 60 is actually a 6 Lbs. density and comparable to Corning 705 which sells for $122.00 in the same quantity. This would make Rockwool a much better price to performance ratio.
Fred, Thank for the comment!
As I said, if you can get it cheap - GREAT!
When you're buying hundreds of square feet, the cost adds up... So, ATS Acoustics Rigid Fiberglass Board, 2 Inch, 3 lb costs $56.95. That's 48 square feet @ 2" thick. Now what I was saying in my video is that Owens Corning R-13 Kraft Faced Insulation Roll 15 in. x 32 ft. (40 square feet @ 3.5" thick) at home depot is $22.99. That's NOT bad even though you have to buy twice as much of the ATS! (you're going to need two layers of that) Your $1.68 / sq. ft. to Owens Corning $1.74 / sq ft.
OK! Good DEAL!
But remember that you get a vapor barrier with the OC AND..... you don't have to add a second layer... AND... you don't have to tie string to hold it in place (Or add sheets of plasting to the room interior prior to doing the drywall work)
We should talk... contact me! :D
Thanks, you confirmed that what I just did is on the right track. I've been researching sound treatment to use in my vocal room for a couple months now and pulled the trigger on a Rockwool 4'x2' 12 pack for $48 at Lowes. With the wood to build the frames and all the materiels needed, I'm at $190 for 12 panels compared to $450 for less coverage for professional acoustic panels or around $300-375 to use the ATS Fiber board, (extra 75 due to shipping costs). The ATS panels provide the same coverage, but about $175 more taking shipping costs into consideration.
Hi, John- I'm a bit confused. If insulation doesn't sound proof why use it? I mean, if insulation prevents resonance between wall panels, doesn't that help with sound proofing since resonance equates to sound transmission? Thanks.
Yes, of course it helps as it is part of a system. But, on its own, it doesn't sound-proof. Fiber is the wall cavity can improve sound transmission loss up to 6 dB. That is substantial, since 6 dB is basically twice as much.
But here I am trying to explain that, on its own, it does not do much. 😉
@@JHBrandt Thank you, John, that is very helpful!
Yes , It makes a bit more sense now... I think my initial idea may still work, to fill the open cavities with rockwool, cover that with a layer of MLV, and then cover that with gypsum board 🤔🤔🤔
Hello Sir. Regarding phonic insulation, what do you think about polyurethane foam board HD Foam Plus or polyethylene Stratocell Whisper/Quash boards? Which one of these materials could be more efficient?
No. Polyurethane or polystyrene, or any closed-cell insulation board is useless acoustically.
Sound proofing requires mass and seal. Absorption in the wall space helps but it's not the main component of the system.
Never use closed-cell board for anything but thermal insulation, where it excells 😉
@@JHBrandt Thank you Sir for your quick response :).
My goal is not necessary to improve the acoustics in the room but to reduce the noise coming from my "sweet" neighbors.
I was thinking to use one of the above materials in ceiling and walls and close the structure with Rigips blue acoustic boards, but now I'm kinda lost.
Can you please tell me which material is more suitable in this case? Much appreciated.
@@camy8443 fill the wall or ceiling cavity FULL with either fiberglass or Rockwool. Use a density of about 15 to 22 kg/m3. Heavier won't help. Use only a fiber type insulation.
For the most isolation, use the fire-rated gypsum board (drywall or plasterboard). Use more than one layer. 😉
Depending on the need and application a deadsheet can be added between the drywall layers.
But you shouldn't go throwing everything at it. Don't guess. Send me an email if you want my help 😊
What about as sound absorption? Can rock wool panels on the walls improve the acoustics in a room?
Of course! That's what fiber DOES. please see my paper "Sound waves in Air and Fiber". Available on my resources page. 😊
Thank you. I'll have a look at that paper :)
I have been told that Mineral wool attenuates lower frequencies better than the equivalent amount of fiberglass, but I cannot find any data on this. Fiberglass is measured in wall cavities (STC) and mineral wool is measured alone? (NRC). Do yuo any experience with this claim? I am considering mineral wool for in ceiling/wall in a home theater.
A very good question, sir! No insulation fiber has been measured "alone" for STC. For building purposes and soundproofing, use either type. However, for acoustic treatment laboratory tests have shown that Fiberglass insulation (in all its forms) will outperform Rockwool when comparing density to density and thickness to thickness. 😎
look at sound absorption coefficients of those different materials, they should publish the data or 3rd party has published their independent testing. video is a completely misinformation
Hello sir, which one is the best meterial for isolation and absorption ? Thanks
1. The best material for Isolation is Mass (concrete, gypsum, brick, block, etc.)
2. The best material for absorption depends on the results required. If you are asking which fiber material is better, go with a lightweight fiber - either glass wool or Rockwool. But use only 10-15 kg/m3 density.
@@JHBrandt sir, please explain M3 density.
@@rajkamaljangir3618 m3 is meters cubed or cubic meters. :)
@@JHBrandt one more question sir, which meterial should I need to use in Acaustic panels to treat bass frequency ? (Acaustics treatment for room )
@@rajkamaljangir3618 only lightweight fiber for fiber-filled traps. Membranes are best for low frequency control and ...
SHAPE and area matter. ;)
you can send me an email - john@jhbrandtd.net
for wall insulation, how would you compare rockwool/mineral wool/ to a dense cellulose (apparently ones with cardboard mixed in, are better at sound dampening). thanks much
You have to remember that salespeople sell stuff. If they have to deceive you to do it, there are ones who have no integrity and they will lie, while others really don't know any better and do what they have been taught.
You can only trust information if it is presented with facts, testing data performed according to international standards.
On my resources page, you will find ir761. This document cost the people of Canada millions of dollars to produce. The testing data was done in an accredited, certified laboratory according to ASTM published standards.
For information about what fiber to use in your walls, see and compare pages 19 & 21, 49 & 51, and 60-61-62-63.
Rock Wool does not soundproof
Fiberglass does not soundproof
Cellulous fiber does not soundproof
ONLY mass and seal will soundproof. ;)
@@JHBrandtrock wool dampens, when integrated with mass it reduces resonance, which in turn reduces received sound.
@John Brandt I have a home theater inside my room and I want to install fiberglass on the wall to isolate the sound from the neighbors, would you recommend that?
No, sir. I would not.
You may try, but you will not succeed in isolating your sound from your neighbors.
As Scotty said to the captain... "Jim! Ye canno change th laws o physics!"
@@JHBrandt ok , But in cinemas, they use fiberglass and acoustic to isolate sound !
@@ronyomar100 uhmmm, no, 'they' do not. Unless they are DIYers with no knowledge of isolation.
Go ahead and follow popular opinion. You know, if we had followed popular opinion, we would never have reached the moon or even built a space station or space telescopes.
It is physics, my friend.
@@JHBrandt What do they do in the cinema to isolate the sound ?
@@ronyomar100 structural isolation is often required because of the high-level low frequencies produced in a cinema (home or mega-theater). Isolation is accomplished using a mass-air-mass system. Fiber is used to damp the vibrations in the wall cavity (air), but the mass of the partitions are far more important, as is the seal of the partitions - mass).
If you need help, please send me an email and let's schedule a time to talk via zoom.
John@jhbrandt.net
Thanks for the great advice. One note though: fire rating and water rating. I watched a demonstration video showing how Rock Wool, Pink Fiberglass and Spray Foam reacted to flame and water. Do your own research and decide according to your needs and budget.
I am confused, the spaces between the joists separating my ground and first floor were filled with lightweight fibreglass and the noise between floors was terrible, I took down my plasterboard ceiling for a rewire I then filled joist spaces with rockwool slabs this has massively improved the sound transmission between floors and I mean a huge difference.
It probably helped a LOT... this is due to the fact that the floor and perhaps the ceiling below was leaky (holes, cracks, etc).
This is a common misconception. You should use MASS and SEAL first. Also, when you replaced the fiberglass with rockwool, you may have changed the seal or mass of the floor or ceiling. Correlation is not causation.
I have also used roxul it it does makes a different !
To help reduce air born noises
John, I'm confused with wanting to "absorb" sound and want to "sound proof" something.For example. I live on a busy street and I have a window that I'm planning on filling up with rockwool (it's 80kg/m3) which I assume will give me enough mas to "keep out" traffic noises from getting in my house.Assuming that I put all the rockwool and seal it correct, wouldn't the rockwool help in this case?I'd but putting it over the existing pane of glass.Hope to hear your thoughts!Thanks. Great video!
James, Rockwool will attenuate due to the fiber absorption. If your Rockwool is 2" thick (5 cm), it will work great for frequencies above 1 kHz. Rock Wool DOES NOT SOUND-PROOF.
Just ONE layer of 5/8" (16 mm) Gypsum board (type-X) will reduce traffic noise SUBSTANTIALLY! It is MASS. Mass is the key. Rock wool has nearly zero mass. I mean seriously, look at this: one CUBIC meter of rock wool only weighs in at 80 kg. Are you going to put the whole cubic meter in there? No. Of course not! You put a thin sliver of it in, which, if your window is 100 cm by 60 cm, is only 2 kg! TWO kilos. ok? Now a piece of 16 mm gyp board of the same size weighs in at nearly 11 kg! Almost 6 times as much.
There is also the resonance factor that must be included. This involves the depth of the airspace (fiber filled or not) which along with the mass determines the resonance of the 'sound-proofing system'. The resonance of the 'system' MUST be at least 0.707 times the lowest problematic frequency. ;)
John, thanks so much for your detailed explanation. I totally understand now how rockwool works (or doesn't work rather) when it comes to sound proofing.
Yeah, not being I math person I didn't even do that calculation of getting only 2kg of material for this particular project. That's definitely not a solution to my problem.
You've brought up and interesting topic which is "resonance". One of my major issues are buses and heavy machinery, and as you probably know, diesel engines produce a very low frequency sound wave which is hard to "block". I haven't found any literature on this, but I'm guess it's around 100hz or even lower.
So basically I have 2 options here:
1. Add a double pane window with asymmetric glass. I was offered 3mm+3mm laminated in the middle, a 12mm air chamber (which does next to nothing to stop sound) and another 4+4mm laminated glass. So that's 14mm, (or 9/16 of an inch), and according to the specification sheet, it's 45 kg per m2. So if my calculations are correct, this window has a surface area of 1.08m so we are talking about 48.6kg of mass.
In your opinion, would this be the "best" solution for blocking low frequency (and mid to high since we're at it)?
Going back to "resonance", wouldn't a 16mm gympsum board, 5cm rockwool and another 16mm gypsum board have similar soundproofing properties to that double pane window I mentioned above?
Also, let's say I go this route and leave the existing 2mm single pane glass there: Should I put the first gypsym board "touching" the glass? or should I leave some sort of air space or some other more "absorbant" material in order to stop vibrations?
This is driving me nuts because I can do something to block mid to high frequencies, but then I need to block low frequencies and that means that there are a lot more variables and issues to take into consideration.
So basically what would you do, John: Thick double pane window or gypsym board + rockwool + gypsym board?
Sorry for being a pain in the butt but you know your stuff and I greatly appreciate your help.
Also, sorry for using metric but imperial system is something I could never wrap my brain around :)
Thanks John!
Hi Again John.Just watched your video "How Much Isolation Do You Need? - part three - GYPSUM BOARD WALLS" and your suggestion is to not let the rockwool touch the gypsum boards.
Being that I only have a usable space of around 8-9 cm (from the glass to the frame of the window), my gypsum board + rockwool + gypsum board isn't going to be that great of a solution.I think I'll just go with the laminated double pane glass option.
Sorry for typing so much but you've made me realize a ton of things I hadn't even considered before.
Utter rubbish, if it was all about mass as John suggests then you would just fill your window with bricks - try that and see if it works!
Sound frequencies affect all materials in many different ways ultimately producing vibration (plus airborne noise too). They key is to reduce both as much as possible. Nothing truly sound 'proofs' - all you can do is cost effectively reduce the effects as much as possible. Mineral type wool insulation helps up to an optimum density of around 60kg/M3. Dense plasterboard does not help. As an example, check this out. www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DxabHn1qLZNw&ved=0ahUKEwi6rZSZmYjfAhWKkywKHXBEBSYQo7QBCCwwAw&usg=AOvVaw1ZthDblToNo65LyXNOOOQ2
Hey john, do you have any recommendations that I can use for strict soundproof material period ? I have an issue where I’m using my indoor voice while doing anything in my room and I’m getting various noise complaints and I’m currently looking into products to help me out . Do you have any recommendations to help me out with isolation and soundproof in my bedroom?
Mass, any mass. The cheaper the better. Drywall has always been a 'go-to' solution for mass. And don't forget the seal.
So is there any other alternative than those three rockwool , fibre etc.
Fiber does not Soundproof. Mass and seal soundproof. Fiber is great for absorption of cavity resonances.
Hi, Im NOT trying to sound proof, Im trying to find the best way to play my Electronic Roland drums from reverberating to the neighbor downstairs. I saw that Rockwool with plywood would help so I'm trying to confirm with other if it does. Can anyone help with this? Thanks.
Ooookay... but that is what 'soundproofing' is. If you have a local 'tribal' name for it.... it's STILL soundproofing.
I honestly think that you have terms confused.
Feel free to ask your buddies what they think. I'm just here to give you the facts. It's up to you if you choose to use them or not.
If you need to block sound from your neighbor, you need mass and seal. Glasswool or rockwool will go INSIDE the mass partition.
Now, if you don't like my answer and decide to 'try something that your friends tell you you should do, why are you commenting here and asking questions? You should go to my resources page and download my papers. THEN, ask questions from the teacher, not the other students (often they are more ignorant than you.) Now, that said, ignorance is not permanent and we are ALL ignorant of many things so don't take that as an insult. It's just a fact.
You can also go to some of the physics classes online to discover more about this interesting subject.
@@JHBrandt What an ego with the size of your azhole! People come here knowing nothing about this and you reply with this crap? Why did you delete my previous post? it pissed you off cuz I told you the truth! What's a Jerk
Hi John I got my walls done with rockwool as I was told it keeps out noise you are right it doesn't my neighbour slams the doors so hard you can still hear everything we got the bedroom kitchen n sitting room done any suggestions on how to fix it please
Martina, I'll need specific information in order to be helpful. Please send me an email. - john@jhbrandt.net
Rock wool is great for sound proofing, when all edges are also sealed with weather stripping, etc.
What would happen if you compress a 5cm Rockwool by 5mm? Would that highly reduce some of the sound dampening properties?
For sure, the fluffier the better
I used safe and sound and it worked great. I put some directly against the flooring (between joists) and it worked the best like that (when experimenting) - presumably it deadens the echo and "speaker effect" of sound between joists. It kills the sounds so it can't get magnified by the chamber. Definitely key to overhead sound issues.
Yes, but that's NOT soundproofing. That's absorption.
How many times do I have to repeat this? 🤦♂️
Fibre works brilliantly for absorption! But you can NOT 'absorb' your way to soundproof.
@@JHBrandt If you are trying to sound proof a downstairs from foot steps or base speakers rattling on the floor upstairs, then it sure counts! But maybe not so useful for walls between rooms. Sound is sound and hearing a person tramp across a floor is hearing a sound. I agree they need to clarify this point though.
@@bwj999 what you are describing is IMPACT noise. There are separate and different ways to the solutions because of the way that sound propagates through structures, concrete, air, steel, etc.
The offending noise source, in your case, was foot fall. The easiest / best way to reduce foot fall sound is to add resilient padding under the floor surface above rather than treating the receiving room. 😉
@@JHBrandt But if we can only treat the receiving apartment unit to reduce footfalls what you would suggest.saint gobain soundbloc board as secondary ceiling will work?
I see the light of rockwool as I was close to buying some x3 packets so you just saved me the trouble of buying it. I was looking for detail specs on the sound side as to how much it will reduce frequencies with a frequency sweep graph but I can't even find a practical video that shows this first hand all I see is a load of written specs and I want see a lengthy video of this rockwool tested with frequency sweeps sine wave spot tones even tested with, the last jedi.
rock wool doesn't work as bass trap/absorber. nothing will, not even wet concrete can trap bass. what these recording studios are doing in real life is compensating the bass through eq in the mastering before pressing. foam as long as its open cell not molded, is going to absorb the treble frequencies and you want that to deaden the room removing echo. all the other crap you find in audio forums are all geezer babbles and semantics not worth your time. THE ONLY WAY TO ABSORB BASS NATURALLY IS TO REMOVE YOU WALLS INCLUDING THE CEILING SO YOU ONLY HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE FLOOR WHERE THE BASS BOUNCES UP AND NEVER COMES DOWN AGAIN or have louvre type windows all over the house at least the horizontal waves are going through it and leave you.
Ok, now this video has me a little confused.
I was set to build a room in a room, and use rockwool to insulate the inner room.
Following your video it makes sense why rock wool would be a waste.
Is standard insulation a better option? Do I need to spend the money i saved on something like MLV?
From your video it seems like i should build the second wall, use standard insulation and make the room airtight and that should be sufficient?
Im not looking for anything special acoustically, just want to make it as quiet as possible outside of the room.
Im a drummer and would love to be able to play at night.
Adam, you're on the right track. My main point about Rockwool is that it doesn't soundproof by itself and the density of this product doesn't' help with soundproofing.
A room in a room is definitely what you need for drum isolation. The level of isolation obtained will depend on the mass of both partitions and the air space between them (filled, of course with fiber insulation). The fiber that you use is not so important - only that cellulose fiber is not recommended for the job. Lightweight does the same as heavyweight.
@@JHBrandt OK that makes sense.
If i leave the current wall up should i place insulation between the old and new wall?
And i saw in one of your videos that 24" spacing is better?
@@adammeigh1958 yes, fill the space as much as possible without compressing the glass wool.
24" spacing adds less rigidity to the wall panel and therefore lowers the resonant frequency. This means improved bass isolation.
@@JHBrandt awesome thank you for the advice!
@@adammeigh1958 how is it all working for you Adam?
If I want to significantly reduce the sound between a basement and floor above what is recommended to be most effective and reasonably priced?
A system must be employed depending on the degree of soundproofing. What is it that you want to isolate from? And to what level?
@@JHBrandt the basement is going to be used as a rental unit so I'd like to "soundproof" it to the extent that theirs a level of privacy for both those in the basement and those on the floor above and then maybe footfall and dogs walking around on the upper floor being minimized so it's not really loud
@@jbo5021 send me an email please. Let's talk. john@jhbrandt.net
@@JHBrandt I really appreciate your offer to provide your insight, I sent an email on 12/19. Let me know if you didn't receive it. I'm sure you've been busy with the holidays so no rush I just wanted to make sure it got to you. Thanks again.
@@jbo5021 sorry that I was so late in getting back to you. Email sent today 😊
What do you recommend to do on my basement for soundproofing then?
Send me an email - john@jhbrandt.net let's talk.
Hi John,
Than you for sharing your expertise, I'm trying to learn as most as I can before taking any steps and waits bucks, I'm looking for make my studio room as silence as possible so I'm watching videos like yours, what do you think about cheap panels with towels inside? I just watched a video about it and it seems pretty trustable information, making absorbent panels with a few bucks. Thank you in advance, thumbs up and you got a new sub.
Your Brazilian musician and producer in North America, Marco.
Thanks, Marco! Now about the towels... Lol! That video doesn't show what you think it shows. It's basically bad science... From a misconception of several different acoustic properties.
Send me an email. John@jhbrandt.net
@@JHBrandt Yeah, I was guessing, but thank you for the advise, so for treatment with panels Roxul or Rock wool, fibreglass are the best?
@@MarcoCastilloWorld Any lightweight fiber performs very well. Avoid high-density rigid products.
If you need Sound Proofing, you need mass and seal, NOT fiber (rock wool or fiberglass)
Send me an email - john@jhbrandt.net
M. John Brandt, for the same budget, to create a dead sound studio (for voice over only) should we:
Cover 40% of the wall with 3 inch soft fiberglass insulation on primary and secondary reflection
Cover 20% of the wall with 3 inch hard Roxul on primary reflection only
Cover 20% of the wall with 6 inch soft fiberglass insulation on primary reflection only
Cover 5% of the wall with 6 inch soft fiberglass insulation on primary reflection and 30% with 3 inch soft fiberglass insulation on secondary reflection
Or any other combination?
By covering wall I mean create DIY panels to hang on the wall with a 3-6 inch air gap behind.
It a small studio 10'x17' of 9' high with hard wood floor.
Thank you very much for sharing your expertise on this topic.
Thumbs up from Montréal
Your percentage rules really don't apply. It depends on the room size and resonances (modes).
Spacing panels from the wall is NOT recommended. I will be discussing this in a master class I am giving in a couple of hours. Check my channel for new videos. We discuss these topics and more. 😊
Fantastic video🙏
Have to say I agree. Rockwool is not sound proof. I have just done a flat up and put in Rockwall, in the ceiling and then put new ceilings up. Not much difference just slightly less. We now have to put acoustic flooring down on the top flat floor too with carpet. In the UK victorian property.
thanks , iv looked on the net can't find any light weight fibreglass , where on the internet would I get the fiderglass for in-between walls ,,, thanks
Home depot. Lowes. Any DIY supply store.
Owens Corning Pink. Safe n Sound. Etc
@@JHBrandt Hey! I have a question, I want to build acoustic gobos for recording instruments in my bedroom. i’m planning on getting 7 inch thick pink fiberglass insulation- they’re going to be 6 feet tall and 4 feet wide and im building 4 of them. Would there be much of a noticeable difference between regular pink fiberglass insulation and rockwool? Rockwool is so much more expensive. I’m sure there’s not hardy any difference just for gobos (cutting room noise down deadening a little just good enough for a really solid home recording right? (also would the facing on the back of the insulation matter at all? or should i plan on cutting it off?)
@@natestrayhorn1578, get the cheap stuff. It's actually better at low frequencies. Buy the unfaced insulation as is used in the attic. (Attic Blanket or Loft Roll)
All the best!
@@JHBrandt i wanna do 6 feet tall by 4 foot wide. Do you have any places to get something that would suit those dimensions? i don’t wanna spend over like maybe 80 on all of the insulation? Idk just looking for my options
@@natestrayhorn1578 that's 24 square feet.. Costs about $40 USD... Shop around. 😁
I used that Lenin ground up Denim Blue Jeans Insulation Manards sells & says it is a good sound absorber,it fills the wall cavity very nice.
Yes. Pretty much any fiber fill will improve transmission loss. Rockwool, fiberglass, etc...
For someone with breathing issues would it be ok to use R13 UltraTouch Denim I don't want to be fooling with fiberglass as sensitive as my breathing is for me.
Yes, you probably DON'T need to be messing with any fiber material. Cotton can also cause problems. But once the treatment is built, you should be fine in the room with it, regardless of which fiber you use. The low GFR fiber is best for deep trapping. The denim stuff is much higher GFR and you will have more reflection of the bass (LF).
I would recommend having someone else build the treatment for you and be sure to use a thin layer of dacron batting (polyester) before the fabric. This will prevent any fibers from working their way out. 😉
@@JHBrandt Cotton can cause what problems? It is the only thing I wear on my body.
@@thestreamreader, sorry in my fast reply, I was thinking about cellulose fiber 🤦♂️.
You're probably okay with the denim but it IS very dense and won't be as effective in the bass region.
Still, I would not recommend that you made these yourself. Have someone make them for you.
Thanks John!
EV
Great Info Mr. Brandt! You just saved me alot of dough. I'm building a recording room in my basement and was about to build these "diy panels" and fill em full of Roxul (Aka Rockwool) "Safe and Sound" Insulation. Now that I know that's not a good choice or idea, do you have a recommendation for soundproofing material I can insert in the walls for maximum soundproofing? I already plan to build double walls with staggered studs. I was thinking of filling the space inside with plain ole cotton bath towels. I watched a video here on RUclips where a fella made some different panels AND did the scientific sound testing which showed the towels were VERY effective if stacked, stapled and placed correctly. Any advice?
Larry, any fiber in the walls will improve the STC a few points but I don't recommend spending too much on it. The normal lightweight fiberglass or Rockwool works well for this.
But the Soundproofing occurs with the MASS and the SEAL of the partitions. The fiber will dampen the wall panels and lower the resonance and in turn improves the STC of the system.
DIY panels are used to TREAT the acoustics. These will not do anything for your Soundproofing or what I prefer to call Sound Isolation.
@@JHBrandt thank you Mr. Brandt. I think I'm going to build "doubled up walls" where the studs are staggered so that the sound doesn't get "trapped" inside the wall cavity but instead can travel around in all directions within the wall cavity (essentially there is just one big wall cavity where the sound would have to sorta travel in a horizontal wave pattern to pass from one side to the other). Then I'll fill this cavity with stacked and stapled (together) cotton bath towels (which I can obtain very cheaply from thrift stores and yard sales). I watched a guy do tests here online that showed (and proved) the towels absorbed sound very well and outperformed other materials such as egg crate foam and a couple other popular items often used by we amateur musicians for soundproofing. I was surprised but not surprised about the towels performing so well. Any thoughts?
@@larryeaton9437, what you described is not how the physics of sound works. And DIY testing of materials is NOT how things are tested. These tests are false and misleading.
People try to test things all the time and they get it wrong. The towel video is ridiculous. Send me an email - john@jhbrandt.net
@@JHBrandt ok Mr. Brandt will do. And thank you for your willingness to help with your expertise.
Very informative video thank you!
Would you recommend rock wool to people living in fire prone regions? Apparently it has a very high heat resistance. Maybe it should be used under an outside sealed brick and mortar or reinforced concrete shell. I tend to not trust ratings given for an application if the only rating I can find is in combination with other components. I'd consider filling my walls with the cheapest filler material that can be packed and sealed in. Dirt is also great for heat and sound blocking.
Yes of course! It depends on how you are building and the design purpose, not to mention any building code requirements.
I have an exposed ceiling in the room in my basement where I play my synth, record podcasts, and make work calls. My toddlers are upstairs with mom or the nanny pushing chairs and tables around, and throwing tantrums. I don't want to hear them, and they don't want to hear me. Especially the chair pushing on hardwood floor that sounds like a vacuum cleaner. I thought Rockwool would at least block some of that two way noise traffic, but my takeaway from this is that it wouldn't make much of a difference at all?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and expertise.
The toddlers throwing tantrums or the nanny throwing tantrums?
Thank you for this info. I am going crazy with all the different videos saying ,, do it this way and so on.... I am going for Fiberglass in both sets of walls. I have watched too many and almost confused,,,lol, I just want to get this done so I can get my drums out of the house so my wife will quit barking....
I did an experiment at work, I took 3 long Rubber floor Mats about 3/8 or less & wrapped them around my Radio Boom Box, 2 wrapped around & one laying over the top. I then pressed into the left & right side sealing the open air sound transfer & that is when it showed to be well worth the experiment. Many Weight Lifting Gyms use 3/4 Rubber Horse Mats some times tripled & reduce the (BANG) sound & vibration from dropping (weights) onto the floor. I am going to apply 3/4 rubber Horse Mats to my 6" wall studs in my Mobile Home & reduce out side & inside (sounds) I have 2 Classic EV Pro Loud Speakers 15" & Horn Loaded Powered with Allesis RM500 Amps there A B 500 Watt's in Mono each powers a SH1250 EV, I also have a Vintage Cerwin Vega Sub 18" with a 10" Speaker in front, the guy I got it from said the Base Player for the Charlie Daniels Band used it for his Base Guitar Speaker. I have watched RUclips Vintage Vids of them Playing Live looking for it, I saw a maybe. hahaahaa I would experiment with1/2 inch of sheet rock & 1/2 of Rubber Horse Mat ((sealed)) air tight & listen & record said sound TEST!
Dan, that's NOT how testing is done.
There are several good software prediction programs available for STL calculations.
try to imagine concrete wall vibrating
glass sealed with silicone is better than drywall for soundproofing for the same thickness
meaning HIGH DENSITY (MASS PER VOLUME) is the best barrier against sound
btw, anyone happens to know the density of cement fiberboard vs mdf? which one is denser?
Cement fiberboard wins, my friend. :)
MDF is about 827.17 kg/m3 while cement board (Hardiboard) is about 1136.4 kg/m3. So for the same thickness, the cement board is heavier.
And yes, glass is 2579 kg/m3 vs drywall (gypsum board) at 676 kg/m3
Go to my resources page and download the Reflections-Boundaries-Mass spreadsheet. There are hundreds of calculations in that thing. (I think I've put too much in there! LOL!)
www.jhbrandt.net/resources/
I remember building 3 music studios for a client in london... He had actually flown in an expert from Holland on what materials to make his studio out off...He wanted those isolation strips to hang the drywall panels on off the studs,2 layers of drywall to be exact with the 2 layers sandwiched between green glue.. 100mm studs all infilled with 100mm of rockwool..
I couldnt believe this guy... They probably payed him 2 grand and his flight to tell them that...
I said the best thing you can do is to knock 2 foot off the diameter of the room and id build a room within the room... If your truly looking for isolation from outside, then you have to cut off the transmission of sound energy making it through your actual room.. Foam or wool might shave off a bit of energy for sure, but wont come close to making a dent in the grand scheme of things... They weren't best pleased when I told them that the 2 grand they spent on green glue was a waste also... Felt bad for them... Wish they had asked me considering they wanted me to build it..
I’m looking to build a recording booth and saw your comment , I’m looking to build a room inside a room what would be your advice for the best soundproofing?
@@konceptuzari Simple really.. Keep your inner room away from your existing room walls as much as possible. Make your new stud walls as deep as possible 100mm or more. Fill the inside with either rockwool rw30 or similar or just fluffy rolls if you prefer.. Build your new floor with a gap away from the walls, doesn't have to be much at all, just as long as they don't actually touch, If your worried about neighbors underneath then mass loaded barrier/very heavy rubber sheeting down first, sit the stud floor on that,fill in the cavity in the floor with rockwool or fluffy roll, sheet it ontop with OSB/PLY and either go again with mass loaded barrier sheeting on that and then a final layer of osb/ply ontop. Inside walls , Sandwich consisting of drywall sheet/ mass loaded barrier/drywall sheet. On the back of the walls outside the room drywall sheet is enough.. Oh and a solid door in the new room, Don't cheap out and get a hollow door.. Hope that helps
Sorry I forgot to mention, Put down strips of mass/loaded barrier on the floor under the stud walls also.. It might seem unstable maybe at first but as soon as you have the 4 walls interlocked, it will be fine.. Also just use intumescent caulk or caulk that dries and stays rubbery for filler everywhere you have gaps in your drywall and floor, No need in buying into expensive stuff.. All a money grab.. You can buy jumbo rolls of the stuff for cheap..
@@petrokemikal Why do you say green glue is a waste? Apparently it performs very well on tests for increasing the overall STC.. Or were you just talking about in the context of this project?
@@Hankblue Imo its just a Fad ...Ive used it in lots of places for people. Plenty of those products about to take your money.. You will find that most of the company's who say good things about products like this are actually getting paid to do so.. Or in the case of product tests its the same thing going on.. And in my general experience you will also find that the majority of users who say good things about it, aren't fully sure how its doing anything but swear by it because it cost them lots of cash..
6 db reduction across all frequencies? Links to whitepapers on this topic?
Did I say that?
Perhaps you should go to my resources page and download the whitepapers.
Hello sir. I'm looking for a cost effective way to make bass traps for my large 30x20x10-ceiling room.
I don't want to use Rockwool because my lungs are too sensitive to the dust it emits.
Could I use rolled up bags of fiberglass insulation and stack them in the corner?
I guess my question is am I looking for a dense material or a soft material for low end treatment?
Have you tried an open cell foam to cover or wrap around the rockwool to stop any fibres from escaping?
Im not asking about thick fiberglass insulation. I can either buy Rockwool Acoustic Mineral Wool Insulation 60-6lb 48"x24"x4" 3pcs
or Owens Corning 703 Fiberglas Acoustic Insulation - 3pcf 48"x24"x. To glue on my wall as panels. To treat my room. Not soundproof per se.
As I understand, high-mass, high-density "soundproof" materials you mentioned will reflect/bounce the sound that hit them back off its surface instead of letting the sound to go through, and you called them "soundproof". Rookwool, on the other hand, does not reflect, but absorb certain proportion of the sound wave energy, and letting the remaining to get through. Is that right ?
So if there was a material similar to Rockwool, but absorb 95% of sound energy (say at 10cm thick) instead of bouncing it, will you call that material "soundproof" ?
I'm sorry. But you understand nothing if you THINK that 96% is absorbed by ANYTHING. No fiber, either lightweight or extremely dense, does 'soundproofing'. You need to get off the internet forums and go read some REAL research papers, like mine and other professionals.
Dense Rock wool, by the way, has a high "reflection coefficient". Yes, it is reflective of bass frequencies. ;)
AGAIN, no fiber will soundproof. Forget about it and call a professional. ;)
@@JHBrandt Well, I spent more than $1500 to cover my cinema room with 3 inches of Rookwool two months ago, and recently I embarrassed myself when I found 2cm thick empty foam box, put my phone in it, closed the lid, and find out that the sound hear just nearly the same, just a tiny less loud, as opposed to "sound proof experiment" using foam or rockwool box around internet.
That's where you missed my point, I am trying to define what "soundproof" actually is, and I believe high-mass&density materials only "soundproof" by reflect the wave back. I presumed in the future they might find some light-weight material that provides strange physical properties, say it can convert pressure into heat so quickly that it absorbs nearly all energy coming from sound wave (nobody know if that material exists or not ,but lets face it, nobody could imagine thermal conduction can reach speed of sound before they found that out in sub-zero liquid Helium, right ?). Then at that point, can I call that high-absorption material "soundproof" since it stop most of the pressure wave from coming through ?
@@minhhong4924 You can do whatever you want. Physics really doesn't CARE what you believe. It's your job to learn how it works. By the way, there is no such thing as 100% soundproof, unless you are in the vacuum of space. ;)
I recommend that you get these two books and study them; "Architectural Acoustics by M. David Egan" and "Acoustics Sound Fields and Transducers - Leo L. Beranek"
@@JHBrandt it does not look like you read my comments fully. No problem though :)
loved it. thats called information...
Confused. First says you can't test it. Then he explains how various products have been tested. I've seen a number of Rockwool tests on RUclips that seem viable.
Science does not have to be believed to work. If you are confused read my papers on sound proofing. www.jhbrandt.net/resources/
He said you can not specifically test just the product. So unless you built an entire room out of this product and then tested, other factors can contribute to the sound absorption
@@TheRealMrGuvernment 'He said you can not specifically test just the product.'
Why not? See what the existing room sounds like before and after adding rockwool.
ColtraneTaylor
I think he was trying to explain that there is a compound effect.
@@totallyfrozen Ok, but supposing rockwool and concrete walls work but rockwool and wooden walls doesn't you could go for the first option (hypothetical about rockwool and concrete). If it's a combination of elements, find the ones that make a difference when you add rockwool or anything else for that matter.
Rock wool is the best on my experience in music studio
So you are saying that rockwool definitely out performs fiberglass when it comes to soundpoofing a room? Do you have experience with this? Just curious because i am currently in the process of turning my garage into a practice space for my band.
@@mountain9954 Yes
@@mountain9954 for sure. Not even close
This was a good test, ruclips.net/video/Uiz0mp9yn-M/видео.html don't know what this guy is talking about hating on Rockwool. He needs some for the top of his head
i have a Rockwool room and is 95% soundproof (for neighbor noises) Very happy with it.
i think what you are talking about is how to build walls and proof them. you are correct. i think most viewers don't understand the difference between proofing and absorption and can't understand what this video is concerning. you ought to add an understanding to the start of your videos about your purpose because viewers are extremely dense and easily hurt.
Thank you. I'll do that. 😊
What confuses me with sound proofing is the question of the air gap being beneficial.
For example a cavity being filled halfway as Rockwool advise.
I actually asked there customer service line would it be better if you used 4 bats high instead of 2 bats high in a ceiling cavity and they said they found it didn't make any difference and they advise 2.
Then the rail system attaching a second drywall with the air gap separating between the 2, again has me confused on the air having nothing to carry the sound if that's what actually happens.
An air gap is always beneficial, whether how much is dependent on the specific application. Air gap is fancy way of saying "decoupling". Less materials touching each other, less conduction of vibration. Rockwool within the cavity further assists in reducing the amplitude of waves passing through. As long as you can retain some kind of gap, two layers would be best. Possibly diminishing returns.
@@lllllllllllllllllllll1lll1 Awesome thank you:)
John great video.
But there are lot of product based on rockwool that are advertised exclusively as sound insulation materials.
Why they do that?
What you say is very true. It is the reason why I posted this video. You have to remember that, especially now, most products are marketed for any niche they can fill - to increase the company's profit margins.
Be skeptical, demand proof (empirical evidence). and don't believe anything at face value. Ask other professionals, etc.
See my resources page (website).
All the best.
@@JHBrandt John I think maybe because they are all advertised as insulation material inside a cavity....as you said an drywall has already its own sound insulation value. Filling in the gap will produce an +6db insulation value. Is this correct?