Great war game. I do think if Grant had been narrowly defeated in major part because of McClernand's insubordination, as in this war game, Grant would have had another chance for at least two reasons. 1: There wasn't anyone else who had won battles in the West. 2: Charles Dana. Mr. Dana was a respected reporter sent by the War Department to Grant's army to report on things. Almost every Charles Dana dispatch to Washington praised Grant and bitterly criticized McClernand. If Grant had been defeated because McClernand refused to move, Charles Dana would have pointed that out in detail. McClernand would have been sacked, as he eventually was, and Grant given another chance, maybe with a short leash.
I think if there was a McClernand card, there should have been an insubordination card in the deck for the Confederates as well; for WW Loring if no one else.
Also the arbitrariness of the Confederate timeline comes into play. Yes the Confederate Victory is only that they prevented a siege of Vicksburg until June 1863. Likely if the game continued Grant gets all three corps to the battlefield, wins a major victory and puts Vicksburg undersiege and lets say Vicksburg surrenders in August instead of July 1863.
Johnston also attacked on the first day of the battle of Bentonville. His bid to destroy the one wing of Sherman's army was ultimately unsuccessful, but recreating the last grand charge of the Army of Tennessee in miniature is on my bucket list!
Vicksburg debate and one theater the Confederacy didn't have much assistance from was Kirby Smith and his Texas/Arkansas base of operations could have harassed Grant. Certainly offered more assistance for Vicksburg. Johnston was too cautious for the necessity of lifting the Vicksburg siege [he had rough 20,000 men to Grant's rough eventual 60,000. About late May. Pemberton sat idle as well with 30,000 men accepted the siege in the city.. Kirby Smith was not under threat for all said reasons could have spared 20,000 troops or marched more directly himself to save the city.
I had an ancestor in the 16th Ohio Infantry under McClernand. He took part in the initial assault on Vicksburg on the 19th. Seeing his division win the first main confrontation was really great!
Wow, what a great batrep! I didn't know these rules, but I love the mechanics and fog of war elements described here. The board and the divisions looked great, especially considering they fit into a carry on! I would love to see a making-of on the board. But I also think it could easily be expanded to a 4 x 6 foot size for a little more elbow room. I would also love to have seen a separate, more detailed video on the way the rules work. (Especially on the effects of assigning staff points.)
Can you please do this as a series for the entire civil war from start to finish. The whole country from 61 until whenever one side wins . It could be done with a map of the us and a couple of operational boards like you used here. You could make up armies as the war develops etc. Use the same rules and have it as a rolling project. That would be epic!!
Excellent video guys! I'd love to see that operational level game played again with the historical orders of battle and no relief from Longstreet and compare the two results. Another great game and video.
Thanks Eric! All of our players agreed in their post-battle chat that without Longstreet's troops, the relief of the city would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible. The forces Johnston did have historically arrived slow and were, by and large, not first rate divisions.
In my opinion, Keith was overly cautious. There is, I think, an argument to be made for marching on Jackson with Sherman and McPherson while Maclernand marches on and besieged Vicksburg. This would give the Confedrates a rather agonizing choice between holding Jackson or marching to relieve Vicksburg. Given that the Federals gain VP through battles and by besieging Vicksburg and taking Jackson, an aggressive disposition is advantageous, even if risky.
Plus when we look to grant.. grant understood the strength of the union was in its resources and man power and parts of its leadership - the parts he liked - and would of happily sent them forward to do their jobs even with casualties likely to be suffered. Keith acted more like McClennan during the Peninsular War than Grant during any stage of his career. The guy demanded action and to keep the enemy pressed and not letting them form whatever lines and positions they wanted.
@@reecedignan8365 I am reminded of Grant and Lincoln's correspondence during the Overland Campaign. Grant refused to let up the pressure on Lee and Lincoln supported him, saying, "Hang on with a bulldog grip." With the way the victory points would be tallied and how the turns were determined, there is absolutely no benefit that I could see to waiting south of Vicksburg to concentrate. Sending McClernard North while marching Sherman and McPherson East would have netted Keith 2 VP each turn that he kept Vicksburg under siege, plus the D3 or D6 VP for each minor or major battle won and D6+4 VP if he captured Jackson. In the process, he would leave the Confederates with the unenviable choice of waiting for more reinforcements, leaving Keith free to rack up VP at Vicksburg, or marching with what they have and risk not only losing Jackson (and the 5-10VP associated with it) but also losing a solid chunk of their army in battles that, even if Keith lost, would only hurt him slightly, with the loss of D3 VP for each defeat. With numbers like that, the offensive is the only right answer.
Keith only lost because of how badly the game was set up. It seems the scoring criteria were meant to simulate Grant's actual campaign rather than his objective. Grant's mission was to take Vicksburg. Jackson was a side objective that was only worth taking as a means to the end of besieging Vicksburg. Keith's cautious approach enabled him to use the Big Black River as a shield (though in the opposite manner that Grand used it in real life) and approach Vicksburg relatively unharassed. He then invested Vicksburg and had a very good chance of taking it. The question is: "Could Longstreet relieve Vicksburg?" The game never answered that because Vicksburg was never relieved. Keith got unfairly punished for not taking side objectives and for not fighting pitched battles, despite putting Vicksburg under siege. Neither of those were the Federal goal in this campaign.
@@harrisonsearles1470 that is a fair critique and you make a very sound argument. However, in the game as it had been set up, Keith adopted the wrong strategy. Had the scoring criteria been more heavily weighted on securing Vicksburg for the Federals, then his more cautious approach with a focus towards Vicksburg would be more justified.
I think there could have been random cards that were based upon the historical commanders personalities. For example, you could have done one in which randomly Johnston’s forces wouldn’t move for a single turn, highlighting his cautious nature.
My first thought was - 'board game, don't like those!' But I can see why this game took a while to write. It looks very clever and original, and absorbing to play. Well done once again on combining history and gaming. Did anyone wear the 'treason in defence of slavery should not be celebrated' T-shirt? I'm guessing not.
y'all produce some great videos, and this has to be in the top few. What an amazing experience--thanks for sharing it with us. I am really intrigued by the rules set. I'll be further west than usual during Historicon, but I can hardly wait to see Miles' WWII game
Wonderful report. Congratulations on authoring, building and presenting a portable grand strategy game. I've seen a few grand strategy games in the past, and they've tended to be a bit "Avalon Hill" (ie showing their age, and a bit low on eye candy). Sorry, Avalon Hill. This one creates interest with different time and victory tracks, event cards and the mini-battle resolution. Also, and most important, there are logistics and real-world victory conditions. You've presented the game really well in this video. It's obvious that your players had a great immersive experience.
Great show, thank you. Look forward to seeing these games at H-Con. Went to Vicksburg with 2 buddies in Oct as part of the “Grant’s Greatest Hits” tour, (Ft Donaldson, Shiloh, Vicksburg, New Orleans), good time. The battlefield park is very well done, preserved well. Vicksburg is amazing, well worth the trip, good food and listened to a great blues band on a rooftop bar along the Mississippi. I wish I had known about your bed and breakfast, but my hotel is very good. Vicksburg also has an edge, stay in the more traveled areas.
Keith's strategy is having a much bigger potential for at least minor victory in an option of pushing McClernand and Sherman both toward Vicksburg with having McPherson securing the road from Jackson. Anyway it was a real pleasure to see your movie.
Looking forward to the tour of the battlefield. I've only driven through Vicksburg and did a quick walk of the artillery positions. I'd love to go back. The Inn is now on my list! Who wouldnt want to stay at a place with a cannon ball still lodged in the parlor!
Northern Gallantry unaided by Southern incompetence this time around! Alas! Very happy you guys came down and did a game in Vicksburg! Its a wonderful park and looks like yall had a great view. Glad you liked both the town and park. The Vicksburg campaign has always fascinated me, as it feels in some ways like a kind of microcosm of the late war--no one can agree on anything, the South wrangling its own neck with petty squabbles, Lee is too arrogant to listen to anyone, and Grant picks the whole martial apparatus apart brick by brick. Really great game. Looking forward to more!
That was a wonderful game. I worked in Vicksburg for most of this summer and really got doused in its history. Loved the scene and all the work y’all did.
Love that board. Looks easy to move and setup yet still has great detail. I wonder about other battles using similar setups, WW2 even some ship combat.
As an aside, I'm a Brit, but have spent time working in the US, and I have to say after visits to Gettysburg and Antietam that the presentation and maintenance of Civil War battlefields is superb.
Love this particular game, my family and I visited Vicksburg on June 16th, shortly after you group did. Love the tour, wish I had more time to spend on the battlefield.
These look like some interesting rules for gaming at this large scale of operations. I like how the mechanics of playing a general’s card seemed to work. Of course the flip side of this what-if means no Longstreet and Pickett at Gettysburg, with its own implications for the situation in the east and overall.
Visited Vickburg a couple of years ago. Simply outstanding location! We actually tried to stay at the B&B you guys used but couldn't make the schedule work in our favor. Absolutely plan to go back in the future!
Love the longer videos, thank you for your guys great scenarios and people, love watching the war games with the added historical commentary and perspective
Absolutely loved to see an operational level battle played out on the channel! Big battles and skirmishes are a'plenty, but this was pretty refreshing content to watch. Would love to see more!
How amazing it would be to have a group of friends that enjoyed both history and board games and have the time and money to travel and play. Excellent video and content - thank you for posting.
Must say, guys, this is a doozer! You almost always hit the mark, but you hit this one out of the park. Ok, admission time, I'm currently building ACW armies using the excellent Baccus6mm range with the eventual aim to be able to refight each and every scenario in the books with Greg's awesome Altar of Freedom rules. So to see the possibility of a strategic level 'add-on' for the best grand tactical ACW rules around is tantalising. Go on, Greg, you know you want to put it all together and give us even more ACW. By the way, I attended Joy of Six in Sheffield this last weekend and heard nothing but good things about you from your visit last year. I hope you can make it back over soon...maybe next year's show? Keep up the great work, you are great ambassadors for the hobby and your country. Oh, and Happy 4th of July.
Lee’s legend is sinking, sinking, sinking. Chernow’s bio on Grant (a must read) paints a particularly dismal picture of a man spilling his troop’s blood to gain a favorable bargaining position to save his own skin. It will be a while yet before the many myths of the romantic “lost cause” are dispelled.
This is a game that i desperately want to continue a couple more turns. Its just so inconclusive Johnson is over the river but Grant is still in fine position to, with a little providence, drive Johnson off.
Being British I don't know the American Civil War as well as I would like to. But seeing a what if on the American Civil War is intriguing me to learn more.
How could someone watch these videos and not subscribe? I don't even own any miniatures but enjoy it vicariously through these videos and learn a lot as well.
By far my favorite battlefield to visit … and I’ve been to a lot of them. Great to see this game played. Have long thought that, as soon as Grant and Porter successfully ran the batteries, Pemberton should have been looking for Grant’s crossing point and headed out to meet him with a large force. Grant had 1) extended supply lines, 2) divided forces and 3) no hope for reinforcements. His prosecution of the campaign was brilliant, but Pemberton had many opportunities to defeat him.
I think that this is an example on how Lee, while tactically talented, was limited in terms of strategy by neglecting probably the most vital line of supply of the Confederacy and looking for an espectacular decisive napoleonic style victory, which was made nearly impossible by the industrial revolution which allowed the creation of new units faster and in greater numbers than in previous times. Grant on the other hand was always looking at the big picture, and the Vicksburg campaign is the best example on how he doesnt mindlessly charges to the city as fast as possible once he crosses, but cuts first their communications and then besieges, putting the rebels in a bigger dilema. I dont think that Johnston not attacking is because "he didnt had the balls" as someone said in the trailer of this wargame, while he could have attempted a relief knowing the consequences of loosing the city and succeed, he could also have lost everything and suffer a much greater defeat.
I think Lee was right to keep Longstreet with him. Chancellorville was fought at the beginning of May. If he had sent Longstreet to Jonhston in april, I highly doubt that Lee could have won that battle without one of his army corp and if he sent him afterward, I beleive it would have been too late to save Jackson and/or Vicksbrug. In the end, as Lee himself said, it was Virginia or the Mississippi. The question is rather what is more important between the two.
@@martelthebergepierre-andre6217 Virginia maybe for political and morale reasons, however, without Vicksburg the supply of vital goods was wrecked, pretty much cutting the confederacy in two and arguably loosing the war then and there, maybe not immediately but it was quite clear that everything would just go in decline
@@arisnotheles at the Chattanooga campaign if I recall correctly they nearly destroyed the union army in Chickamagua, only saved by George Henry Thomas by being a badass
@@coffeemaiden7915 I understand your point. I agree with you on that but I must ay that I feel that if Richmond fell or if the ANV is beaten to a pulp, the South would have a huge loss of moral. Either way, I think that this just prove just how it was impossible for the South to win this war
I don’t think it demonstrates a limitation of Lee’s strategic thinking. I would argue that the effectiveness of the ANV was more important to the confederate cause than Vicksburg was. Lee knew that if the war kept dragging on, they would lose. Grant knew if the war kept dragging on, they would win. I think that was one of Lee’s primary deciding factors leading him to March to Pennsylvania in 63. If he was able to inflict another major defeat on the AotP and opening the roads to multiple northern state capitals which very well could have (at least in Lee’s mind) led to foreign intervention for peace. Sending a corps to help Vicksburg was not going to save the confederacy, at best it was only going to prolong the war and would also leave the ANV seriously vulnerable to the AotP.
What was the military intelligence capability of the Union Army in 1863? Would they have known that a major transfer of Confederate troops from Virginia to Mississippi was going on? What counterintelligence capability, if any, did the Confederate Army have to hide, conceal, or mislead information about the movement of it's troops? It would seem that the "interior lines" strategy would only work if the Confederacy could move it's troops relatively quickly(for that time period) and with some degree of secrecy. Otherwise, one Union commander would know to dig in strong defensive positions, while others would know the Confederate forces in front of them had been weakened, and take advantage of it.
I love operational level games in all formats, miniature,board, and PC. Skirmish can be fun but its a lot of simple die roll shooting. Operational requires so much more thought on what to do next.
A very fun campaign to watch indeed. Another interesting battle y'all might could cover that gets little publicity is the Battle of the North Anna River.
Great video, as always. I’m fascinated by the overlap of a miniatures game and a boardgame. I’d like to see more of this. Perhaps this might be a way to gain more hobbyists to historical miniatures from the boardgame arena. The LWTV terrain board and the miniatures highlights what makes historical miniatures wargaming so appealing (and more attractive than most board games): SPECTACLE. Bernie Kempinski mentions this in reference to the fantastic terrain board he created and featured in Mark’s Game Room’s recent RUclips episode “The real SAVING PVT RYAN bridge battle AAR” It’s the SPECTACLE of beautiful terrain and colorful miniatures that makes for a truly immersive experience.
I am not only a war gamer and ACW is one of my favorite periods I actually live in Vicksburg. I have been to all the places mentioned and more. Too bad they didn't have time to visit the old courthouse museum, also a wealth of information:) Vicksburg has several great B&Bs, it is a tourist town after all. On the gaming side the only thing I will add is making Vicksburg impossible to assault and take by force was a correct one. Grant actually tried twice before he realized the defenses were just too tough.
Great game, video and rule set. When can I buy a copy? (Painting up my 6mm Baccus army to play Alter of Freedom. And yes, someone will have to play the confederates... 😉) All the best!
Hey I appreciate you guys playing the games outdoors, or in a setting that immersive to the theme of the game. I believe this adds tremendous value to the playing experience and makes for entertaining videos and player enjoyment. Keep it up! It is something more gaming groups should implement.
Great game, I'd love to see the rules published some day, I'm really interested in the idea of a small portable wargame that allows you to play some big operational level battles!
Great RUclips. It would be fun to see you guys play this out several times to see what changes with the random events. Always nice to have 3D but this would work on the classic cardboard chits as well.
On this Vicksburg debate and one theater the Confederacy didn't have much assistance from was Kirby Smith and his Texas/Arkansas base of operations could have harassed Grant. Certainly offered more assistance for Vicksburg. Johnston was too cautious for the necessity of lifting the Vicksburg siege [he had rough 20,000 men to Grant's rough eventual 60,000. About late May. Pemberton sat idle as well with 30,000 men accepted the siege in the city.. Kirby Smith was not under threat for all said reasons could have spared 20,000 troops or marched more directly himself to save the city. He was closer than Lee to the area of attack..
McClernand's grudge card definately came at the wrong time! But to paraphrase Napoleon l'll take a lucky general over a good general. Great board and set up. Love operational level games when done well...and this was.
Wonderful video! I wonder... if the Rebels had kept Vicksburg, it seems likely that the Union could've broken the rail line at points west of the Mississippi. That would not have opened "the Father of Waters" to unimpeded Union trade, but it still would've mangled the South's hope of continued supplies from the West. Doing that would have forced Pemberton to attack on the ground of Grant's own choosing. Just one more "what-if" scenario to add to your already full list of game-able ideas. 🙂
Should have been a Johnston retreats card in the deck. He has the tendency to not fight when needed. Also, were the 2 divisions from Longstreet added to the supposed 20,000 troops Johnston already had?
By the way,noticed the reference to the S&T Vicksburg game which covers the assault on the Stockade Redan. Played it a couple of times. Have yet to plant the flag on the redan…
I was actually thinking about this a few months ago, I didn't do a wargame, but I split Lee's Army after Chancellorsville taking all Virginia, NC, SC, and all Georgia Brigade's except Thomas' Brigade (50,000 men) and dividing them up with AP Hill and probably DH Hill (Lee gives him a second chance) taking over as Corps commanders with Ewell acting as an aid to Lee for a little longer. Longstreet would take all brigades from the west of Appalachia about 30,000 men and help Bragg relieve Rosecrans and from there Longstreet with reinforcements from Bragg joins with Johnston, to push Grant back across the Mississippi. Lee meanwhile raids western Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio in a loop with one of his commanders returning to Virginia via a destroyed West Virginia while the other runs around Virginia demonstrating to keep part of the Army of the Potomac from reinforcing. This would serve two purposes, it would relieve Vicksburg even if temporarily, it would allow Longstreets divisions to recruit additional men, and it would let Lee go on a limited offensive to gain supplies in a safer direction. The downside is opening up Richmond to Hooker/Meade but with the poor leadership in the North at the time, there is a least a chance this strategy could have been successful at least long enough for more of Lincoln's detractors to gain power to force him to sue for peace. Thou if Richmond is taken and Jefferson Davis captured would that change much???
By the summer of 1863 there were no opportunities left for the South, Both Vicksburg and Pennsylvania were traps where Southern strength would be ground down. Still, counterfactuals are fun, and this was a fun video. Thanks guys!
Looking at campaign map at the end of the battle, there may not have been a chance for the War Department to relieve Grant. With all of his units now across the flooded Big Black River and getting his army rolled from North to South, he's now in a very precarious position. In this scenario, it's plausible that now, with Grant in retreat, Pemberton, Johnston, and Longstreet can combine their forces and press Grant against the Big Black or the Mississippi in almost a complete reversal of the actual Siege of Vicksburg. Almost a replay of the first day of Shiloh as Grant's army falls back in retreat under the guns of riverboats. However, I doubt Porter could gather together enough boats to evacuated the whole army in time if the Confederates to choose to truly press the thing.
I doubt the campaign would actually end here in a real alternative timeline. Grant’s been pushed back and the siege temporarily broken, but McClernand has been either removed due to criminal insubordination or actually reinforces on the next “turn.” There’s probably another battle, and if the Rebs barely won against 2 Corps then they have no chance against those reinforcements.
An equally interesting question. What may have happened to Lee's army without Longstreet's divisions. Never mind Lee didn't fight any decisive battles in early July 1863.
Even if it overlaps with Chancellorsville, Hood and Pickett weren't there anyway. And not having these forces may have dissuaded him from launching the Gettysburg campaign (or at least reduced it from an all-out offensive to a major raid)
Great war game. I do think if Grant had been narrowly defeated in major part because of McClernand's insubordination, as in this war game, Grant would have had another chance for at least two reasons. 1: There wasn't anyone else who had won battles in the West. 2: Charles Dana. Mr. Dana was a respected reporter sent by the War Department to Grant's army to report on things. Almost every Charles Dana dispatch to Washington praised Grant and bitterly criticized McClernand. If Grant had been defeated because McClernand refused to move, Charles Dana would have pointed that out in detail. McClernand would have been sacked, as he eventually was, and Grant given another chance, maybe with a short leash.
Good point
I think if there was a McClernand card, there should have been an insubordination card in the deck for the Confederates as well; for WW Loring if no one else.
I think McClernand was so career seeking he likely would have been overly aggressive if anything.
Also the arbitrariness of the Confederate timeline comes into play. Yes the Confederate Victory is only that they prevented a siege of Vicksburg until June 1863. Likely if the game continued Grant gets all three corps to the battlefield, wins a major victory and puts Vicksburg undersiege and lets say Vicksburg surrenders in August instead of July 1863.
"There wasn't anyone else who had won battles in the West."
Rosecrans?
I love the mechanic of one tracking victory points and one tracking game time, both in secret. Well done.
Joe Johnston would have found a reason not to attack
Quite possibly--though he DID attack under the rare occasions he felt the situation in his favor. Seven Pines is a good example of that.
Johnston also attacked on the first day of the battle of Bentonville. His bid to destroy the one wing of Sherman's army was ultimately unsuccessful, but recreating the last grand charge of the Army of Tennessee in miniature is on my bucket list!
He should have been Pemberton instead of Pemberton.
Vicksburg debate and one theater the Confederacy didn't have much assistance from was Kirby Smith and his Texas/Arkansas base of operations could have harassed Grant. Certainly offered more assistance for Vicksburg. Johnston was too cautious for the necessity of lifting the Vicksburg siege [he had rough 20,000 men to Grant's rough eventual 60,000. About late May. Pemberton sat idle as well with 30,000 men accepted the siege in the city.. Kirby Smith was not under threat for all said reasons could have spared 20,000 troops or marched more directly himself to save the city.
@@LittleWarsTV Seven Pines!
I had an ancestor in the 16th Ohio Infantry under McClernand. He took part in the initial assault on Vicksburg on the 19th. Seeing his division win the first main confrontation was really great!
Wow, what a great batrep! I didn't know these rules, but I love the mechanics and fog of war elements described here. The board and the divisions looked great, especially considering they fit into a carry on! I would love to see a making-of on the board. But I also think it could easily be expanded to a 4 x 6 foot size for a little more elbow room. I would also love to have seen a separate, more detailed video on the way the rules work. (Especially on the effects of assigning staff points.)
We'll aim to share photos of the build process on the table!
Fascinating analysis - I had not heard of this "What If" before.
This is more historical than most. It was actually debated.
Can you please do this as a series for the entire civil war from start to finish. The whole country from 61 until whenever one side wins . It could be done with a map of the us and a couple of operational boards like you used here. You could make up armies as the war develops etc. Use the same rules and have it as a rolling project. That would be epic!!
Now that would be awfully ambitious!
Excellent video guys! I'd love to see that operational level game played again with the historical orders of battle and no relief from Longstreet and compare the two results. Another great game and video.
Thanks Eric! All of our players agreed in their post-battle chat that without Longstreet's troops, the relief of the city would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible. The forces Johnston did have historically arrived slow and were, by and large, not first rate divisions.
In my opinion, Keith was overly cautious. There is, I think, an argument to be made for marching on Jackson with Sherman and McPherson while Maclernand marches on and besieged Vicksburg.
This would give the Confedrates a rather agonizing choice between holding Jackson or marching to relieve Vicksburg.
Given that the Federals gain VP through battles and by besieging Vicksburg and taking Jackson, an aggressive disposition is advantageous, even if risky.
Plus when we look to grant.. grant understood the strength of the union was in its resources and man power and parts of its leadership - the parts he liked - and would of happily sent them forward to do their jobs even with casualties likely to be suffered.
Keith acted more like McClennan during the Peninsular War than Grant during any stage of his career. The guy demanded action and to keep the enemy pressed and not letting them form whatever lines and positions they wanted.
@@anathardayaldar I'm almost positive that if Grant had that, he'd have charged hard and kept charging.
@@reecedignan8365 I am reminded of Grant and Lincoln's correspondence during the Overland Campaign. Grant refused to let up the pressure on Lee and Lincoln supported him, saying, "Hang on with a bulldog grip."
With the way the victory points would be tallied and how the turns were determined, there is absolutely no benefit that I could see to waiting south of Vicksburg to concentrate. Sending McClernard North while marching Sherman and McPherson East would have netted Keith 2 VP each turn that he kept Vicksburg under siege, plus the D3 or D6 VP for each minor or major battle won and D6+4 VP if he captured Jackson. In the process, he would leave the Confederates with the unenviable choice of waiting for more reinforcements, leaving Keith free to rack up VP at Vicksburg, or marching with what they have and risk not only losing Jackson (and the 5-10VP associated with it) but also losing a solid chunk of their army in battles that, even if Keith lost, would only hurt him slightly, with the loss of D3 VP for each defeat.
With numbers like that, the offensive is the only right answer.
Keith only lost because of how badly the game was set up. It seems the scoring criteria were meant to simulate Grant's actual campaign rather than his objective. Grant's mission was to take Vicksburg. Jackson was a side objective that was only worth taking as a means to the end of besieging Vicksburg. Keith's cautious approach enabled him to use the Big Black River as a shield (though in the opposite manner that Grand used it in real life) and approach Vicksburg relatively unharassed. He then invested Vicksburg and had a very good chance of taking it.
The question is: "Could Longstreet relieve Vicksburg?" The game never answered that because Vicksburg was never relieved. Keith got unfairly punished for not taking side objectives and for not fighting pitched battles, despite putting Vicksburg under siege. Neither of those were the Federal goal in this campaign.
@@harrisonsearles1470 that is a fair critique and you make a very sound argument. However, in the game as it had been set up, Keith adopted the wrong strategy. Had the scoring criteria been more heavily weighted on securing Vicksburg for the Federals, then his more cautious approach with a focus towards Vicksburg would be more justified.
I think there could have been random cards that were based upon the historical commanders personalities. For example, you could have done one in which randomly Johnston’s forces wouldn’t move for a single turn, highlighting his cautious nature.
Another WOW from the LWTV gang. Loved the whole 3d map to maneuver on, and the separate dueling objectives (time vs combat). Bravo!
My first thought was - 'board game, don't like those!' But I can see why this game took a while to write. It looks very clever and original, and absorbing to play. Well done once again on combining history and gaming.
Did anyone wear the 'treason in defence of slavery should not be celebrated' T-shirt? I'm guessing not.
Where can I get one?
"Nothing better than being at the place, looking at the terrain, and playing a game. It was great." - Bill Owen (quoting a lucky tour participant)
y'all produce some great videos, and this has to be in the top few. What an amazing experience--thanks for sharing it with us. I am really intrigued by the rules set. I'll be further west than usual during Historicon, but I can hardly wait to see Miles' WWII game
That was a super fun game and a super fun trip! Great video guys!
The greatest disadvantage to The Federal forces was that The CSA did NOT have to use Braxton Bragg. An enjoyable battle video. Thanks.
Absolutely loved this project. From the trip to the historical context provided to the custom table and rules, this one was a gem, guys. Nice work!
Sweet tribute to your friend Pat. Keep up your awesome content fellas.
Kudos gentlemen, you continue to outdo yourselves !
Wonderful report.
Congratulations on authoring, building and presenting a portable grand strategy game.
I've seen a few grand strategy games in the past, and they've tended to be a bit "Avalon Hill" (ie showing their age, and a bit low on eye candy).
Sorry, Avalon Hill.
This one creates interest with different time and victory tracks, event cards and the mini-battle resolution.
Also, and most important, there are logistics and real-world victory conditions.
You've presented the game really well in this video.
It's obvious that your players had a great immersive experience.
Your best what if video yet guys.
Fascinating game! I love the operational level approach and hope you make more of these!
Great show, thank you. Look forward to seeing these games at H-Con.
Went to Vicksburg with 2 buddies in Oct as part of the “Grant’s Greatest Hits” tour, (Ft Donaldson, Shiloh, Vicksburg, New Orleans), good time.
The battlefield park is very well done, preserved well.
Vicksburg is amazing, well worth the trip, good food and listened to a great blues band on a rooftop bar along the Mississippi. I wish I had known about your bed and breakfast, but my hotel is very good.
Vicksburg also has an edge, stay in the more traveled areas.
Keith's strategy is having a much bigger potential for at least minor victory in an option of pushing McClernand and Sherman both toward Vicksburg with having McPherson securing the road from Jackson. Anyway it was a real pleasure to see your movie.
Really enjoyed this episode. The game was intriguing. Picket’s early arrival really swung events ominously
Even Hood showed up pretty early in the game-early enough to get into battle and make an impact
This was a great game! The story that it made was epic! thank you for the video!
Gentlemen, you've outdone yourselves!
Glad you guy had a great visit to my backyard. 😁
We loved it! Such a great trip.
Vicksburg seems to be nice place to see. You found great connection between strategic and tactical level of action. Greetings from Poland.
Please keep these coming!! Very informative and fun!
Fascinating game design here! Thanks for this!
So pumped that I found your channel. This is great stuff. Really well done, gents.
Welcome! We’re thrilled you found us!
Excellent video, gentlemen. I thoroughly enjoyed this one! Love when you cover ACW materiel!
Thanks! Probably our favorite period overall
Looking forward to the tour of the battlefield. I've only driven through Vicksburg and did a quick walk of the artillery positions. I'd love to go back. The Inn is now on my list! Who wouldnt want to stay at a place with a cannon ball still lodged in the parlor!
Two cannon balls! One in the floor and another in the parlor wall. It’s awesome
Very nice game and video! Have a great time at Historicon. Thanks!
Just to say what a great video. Lots of tense gaming to be immersed in along with the historical context. So well produced. Brilliant work. Thanks.
Northern Gallantry unaided by Southern incompetence this time around! Alas! Very happy you guys came down and did a game in Vicksburg! Its a wonderful park and looks like yall had a great view. Glad you liked both the town and park. The Vicksburg campaign has always fascinated me, as it feels in some ways like a kind of microcosm of the late war--no one can agree on anything, the South wrangling its own neck with petty squabbles, Lee is too arrogant to listen to anyone, and Grant picks the whole martial apparatus apart brick by brick. Really great game. Looking forward to more!
That was a wonderful game. I worked in Vicksburg for most of this summer and really got doused in its history. Loved the scene and all the work y’all did.
Had the pleasure to call Pat a friend as well, he will be missed
Love that board. Looks easy to move and setup yet still has great detail. I wonder about other battles using similar setups, WW2 even some ship combat.
As an aside, I'm a Brit, but have spent time working in the US, and I have to say after visits to Gettysburg and Antietam that the presentation and maintenance of Civil War battlefields is superb.
Pretty cool system for random events. Nice.
Awesome operational level game.
Love this particular game, my family and I visited Vicksburg on June 16th, shortly after you group did. Love the tour, wish I had more time to spend on the battlefield.
If ever I win the lottery and get to the states that's one place I'm staying! Thanks for a great vid, was a fun game and looked a memorable setting.
These look like some interesting rules for gaming at this large scale of operations. I like how the mechanics of playing a general’s card seemed to work. Of course the flip side of this what-if means no Longstreet and Pickett at Gettysburg, with its own implications for the situation in the east and overall.
Visited Vickburg a couple of years ago. Simply outstanding location! We actually tried to stay at the B&B you guys used but couldn't make the schedule work in our favor. Absolutely plan to go back in the future!
Very interesting game. Poor Keith has no luck, but had some good ideas. Very nice location by the way.
Love the longer videos, thank you for your guys great scenarios and people, love watching the war games with the added historical commentary and perspective
Thanks Jacob!
What a grand location for a wargame
What a cool scenario!
Absolutely loved to see an operational level battle played out on the channel! Big battles and skirmishes are a'plenty, but this was pretty refreshing content to watch. Would love to see more!
Fantastic guys, loved it.
How amazing it would be to have a group of friends that enjoyed both history and board games and have the time and money to travel and play.
Excellent video and content - thank you for posting.
Must say, guys, this is a doozer! You almost always hit the mark, but you hit this one out of the park.
Ok, admission time, I'm currently building ACW armies using the excellent Baccus6mm range with the eventual aim to be able to refight each and every scenario in the books with Greg's awesome Altar of Freedom rules. So to see the possibility of a strategic level 'add-on' for the best grand tactical ACW rules around is tantalising. Go on, Greg, you know you want to put it all together and give us even more ACW. By the way, I attended Joy of Six in Sheffield this last weekend and heard nothing but good things about you from your visit last year. I hope you can make it back over soon...maybe next year's show? Keep up the great work, you are great ambassadors for the hobby and your country.
Oh, and Happy 4th of July.
Lee’s legend is sinking, sinking, sinking. Chernow’s bio on Grant (a must read) paints a particularly dismal picture of a man spilling his troop’s blood to gain a favorable bargaining position to save his own skin. It will be a while yet before the many myths of the romantic “lost cause” are dispelled.
This is a game that i desperately want to continue a couple more turns. Its just so inconclusive Johnson is over the river but Grant is still in fine position to, with a little providence, drive Johnson off.
Being British I don't know the American Civil War as well as I would like to. But seeing a what if on the American Civil War is intriguing me to learn more.
Awesome battle report and scenario, I really liked this.
How could someone watch these videos and not subscribe? I don't even own any miniatures but enjoy it vicariously through these videos and learn a lot as well.
All of our videos are available here, for free.
Great game in a fantastic setting
You guys kill it awesome vid..
Great video. I thought the point around what differentiates a board game and war game a really interesting one. Maybe a good topic for the Podcast?
By far my favorite battlefield to visit … and I’ve been to a lot of them. Great to see this game played. Have long thought that, as soon as Grant and Porter successfully ran the batteries, Pemberton should have been looking for Grant’s crossing point and headed out to meet him with a large force. Grant had 1) extended supply lines, 2) divided forces and 3) no hope for reinforcements. His prosecution of the campaign was brilliant, but Pemberton had many opportunities to defeat him.
Great video folks. Would love to learn more about those rules, they look very interesting indeed.
I think that this is an example on how Lee, while tactically talented, was limited in terms of strategy by neglecting probably the most vital line of supply of the Confederacy and looking for an espectacular decisive napoleonic style victory, which was made nearly impossible by the industrial revolution which allowed the creation of new units faster and in greater numbers than in previous times. Grant on the other hand was always looking at the big picture, and the Vicksburg campaign is the best example on how he doesnt mindlessly charges to the city as fast as possible once he crosses, but cuts first their communications and then besieges, putting the rebels in a bigger dilema. I dont think that Johnston not attacking is because "he didnt had the balls" as someone said in the trailer of this wargame, while he could have attempted a relief knowing the consequences of loosing the city and succeed, he could also have lost everything and suffer a much greater defeat.
I think Lee was right to keep Longstreet with him. Chancellorville was fought at the beginning of May. If he had sent Longstreet to Jonhston in april, I highly doubt that Lee could have won that battle without one of his army corp and if he sent him afterward, I beleive it would have been too late to save Jackson and/or Vicksbrug. In the end, as Lee himself said, it was Virginia or the Mississippi. The question is rather what is more important between the two.
@@martelthebergepierre-andre6217 Virginia maybe for political and morale reasons, however, without Vicksburg the supply of vital goods was wrecked, pretty much cutting the confederacy in two and arguably loosing the war then and there, maybe not immediately but it was quite clear that everything would just go in decline
@@arisnotheles at the Chattanooga campaign if I recall correctly they nearly destroyed the union army in Chickamagua, only saved by George Henry Thomas by being a badass
@@coffeemaiden7915 I understand your point. I agree with you on that but I must ay that I feel that if Richmond fell or if the ANV is beaten to a pulp, the South would have a huge loss of moral. Either way, I think that this just prove just how it was impossible for the South to win this war
I don’t think it demonstrates a limitation of Lee’s strategic thinking. I would argue that the effectiveness of the ANV was more important to the confederate cause than Vicksburg was. Lee knew that if the war kept dragging on, they would lose. Grant knew if the war kept dragging on, they would win. I think that was one of Lee’s primary deciding factors leading him to March to Pennsylvania in 63. If he was able to inflict another major defeat on the AotP and opening the roads to multiple northern state capitals which very well could have (at least in Lee’s mind) led to foreign intervention for peace. Sending a corps to help Vicksburg was not going to save the confederacy, at best it was only going to prolong the war and would also leave the ANV seriously vulnerable to the AotP.
What was the military intelligence capability of the Union Army in 1863? Would they have known that a major transfer of Confederate troops from Virginia to Mississippi was going on? What counterintelligence capability, if any, did the Confederate Army have to hide, conceal, or mislead information about the movement of it's troops?
It would seem that the "interior lines" strategy would only work if the Confederacy could move it's troops relatively quickly(for that time period) and with some degree of secrecy. Otherwise, one Union commander would know to dig in strong defensive positions, while others would know the Confederate forces in front of them had been weakened, and take advantage of it.
Greg returns !!!!
Gents, what a great game & setup. Simple, eligant & a definate result….though it could have gone other ways so easily. Well done.
This is an absolutely fantastic episode.
Man, that looked like such a fun evening!
Boy that looks like fun.
I love operational level games in all formats, miniature,board, and PC. Skirmish can be fun but its a lot of simple die roll shooting. Operational requires so much more thought on what to do next.
Same, I love seeing operational level games
Hey guys, this video was so well done. Keep doing the great job you do. Really appreciate everything you put into this great hobby.
A very fun campaign to watch indeed. Another interesting battle y'all might could cover that gets little publicity is the Battle of the North Anna River.
Great video, as always. I’m fascinated by the overlap of a miniatures game and a boardgame. I’d like to see more of this. Perhaps this might be a way to gain more hobbyists to historical miniatures from the boardgame arena. The LWTV terrain board and the miniatures highlights what makes historical miniatures wargaming so appealing (and more attractive than most board games): SPECTACLE. Bernie Kempinski mentions this in reference to the fantastic terrain board he created and featured in Mark’s Game Room’s recent RUclips episode “The real SAVING PVT RYAN bridge battle AAR” It’s the SPECTACLE of beautiful terrain and colorful miniatures that makes for a truly immersive experience.
I am not only a war gamer and ACW is one of my favorite periods I actually live in Vicksburg. I have been to all the places mentioned and more. Too bad they didn't have time to visit the old courthouse museum, also a wealth of information:) Vicksburg has several great B&Bs, it is a tourist town after all. On the gaming side the only thing I will add is making Vicksburg impossible to assault and take by force was a correct one. Grant actually tried twice before he realized the defenses were just too tough.
Great video!
Great game, video and rule set. When can I buy a copy?
(Painting up my 6mm Baccus army to play Alter of Freedom. And yes, someone will have to play the confederates... 😉)
All the best!
Hey I appreciate you guys playing the games outdoors, or in a setting that immersive to the theme of the game. I believe this adds tremendous value to the playing experience and makes for entertaining videos and player enjoyment. Keep it up! It is something more gaming groups should implement.
Excellent, more content like this please
Great game, I'd love to see the rules published some day, I'm really interested in the idea of a small portable wargame that allows you to play some big operational level battles!
Great RUclips. It would be fun to see you guys play this out several times to see what changes with the random events. Always nice to have 3D but this would work on the classic cardboard chits as well.
I hope videos for how that backpack board were made and the rules! Loved it!
On this Vicksburg debate and one theater the Confederacy didn't have much assistance from was Kirby Smith and his Texas/Arkansas base of operations could have harassed Grant. Certainly offered more assistance for Vicksburg. Johnston was too cautious for the necessity of lifting the Vicksburg siege [he had rough 20,000 men to Grant's rough eventual 60,000. About late May. Pemberton sat idle as well with 30,000 men accepted the siege in the city.. Kirby Smith was not under threat for all said reasons could have spared 20,000 troops or marched more directly himself to save the city. He was closer than Lee to the area of attack..
Love some operational level gaming
Interior lines are a theory. Absent adequate rolling stock and rails, it remains only a theory.
McClernand's grudge card definately came at the wrong time! But to paraphrase Napoleon l'll take a lucky general over a good general. Great board and set up. Love operational level games when done well...and this was.
Wonderful video! I wonder... if the Rebels had kept Vicksburg, it seems likely that the Union could've broken the rail line at points west of the Mississippi. That would not have opened "the Father of Waters" to unimpeded Union trade, but it still would've mangled the South's hope of continued supplies from the West. Doing that would have forced Pemberton to attack on the ground of Grant's own choosing. Just one more "what-if" scenario to add to your already full list of game-able ideas. 🙂
Should have been a Johnston retreats card in the deck. He has the tendency to not fight when needed. Also, were the 2 divisions from Longstreet added to the supposed 20,000 troops Johnston already had?
I can't wait until your next wargame. Until then, gentlemen!
Okay, fine, I’ll go to Vicksburg.(love you guys)
When you guys transitioning to a travel channel?
By the way,noticed the reference to the S&T Vicksburg game which covers the assault on the Stockade Redan. Played it a couple of times. Have yet to plant the flag on the redan…
Happy 4th July lads, keep up the great work. Still figure Vicksburg would have fallen that summer though.
I was actually thinking about this a few months ago, I didn't do a wargame, but I split Lee's Army after Chancellorsville taking all Virginia, NC, SC, and all Georgia Brigade's except Thomas' Brigade (50,000 men) and dividing them up with AP Hill and probably DH Hill (Lee gives him a second chance) taking over as Corps commanders with Ewell acting as an aid to Lee for a little longer. Longstreet would take all brigades from the west of Appalachia about 30,000 men and help Bragg relieve Rosecrans and from there Longstreet with reinforcements from Bragg joins with Johnston, to push Grant back across the Mississippi. Lee meanwhile raids western Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio in a loop with one of his commanders returning to Virginia via a destroyed West Virginia while the other runs around Virginia demonstrating to keep part of the Army of the Potomac from reinforcing. This would serve two purposes, it would relieve Vicksburg even if temporarily, it would allow Longstreets divisions to recruit additional men, and it would let Lee go on a limited offensive to gain supplies in a safer direction. The downside is opening up Richmond to Hooker/Meade but with the poor leadership in the North at the time, there is a least a chance this strategy could have been successful at least long enough for more of Lincoln's detractors to gain power to force him to sue for peace. Thou if Richmond is taken and Jefferson Davis captured would that change much???
By the summer of 1863 there were no opportunities left for the South, Both Vicksburg and Pennsylvania were traps where Southern strength would be ground down. Still, counterfactuals are fun, and this was a fun video. Thanks guys!
Looking at campaign map at the end of the battle, there may not have been a chance for the War Department to relieve Grant. With all of his units now across the flooded Big Black River and getting his army rolled from North to South, he's now in a very precarious position. In this scenario, it's plausible that now, with Grant in retreat, Pemberton, Johnston, and Longstreet can combine their forces and press Grant against the Big Black or the Mississippi in almost a complete reversal of the actual Siege of Vicksburg. Almost a replay of the first day of Shiloh as Grant's army falls back in retreat under the guns of riverboats. However, I doubt Porter could gather together enough boats to evacuated the whole army in time if the Confederates to choose to truly press the thing.
One other thing I took away from my personal visit to Vicksburg was that the place could ONLY be assaulted/taken from the southern approach.
I doubt the campaign would actually end here in a real alternative timeline. Grant’s been pushed back and the siege temporarily broken, but McClernand has been either removed due to criminal insubordination or actually reinforces on the next “turn.”
There’s probably another battle, and if the Rebs barely won against 2 Corps then they have no chance against those reinforcements.
An equally interesting question. What may have happened to Lee's army without Longstreet's divisions. Never mind Lee didn't fight any decisive battles in early July 1863.
Even if it overlaps with Chancellorsville, Hood and Pickett weren't there anyway. And not having these forces may have dissuaded him from launching the Gettysburg campaign (or at least reduced it from an all-out offensive to a major raid)