Grant, thanks for sharing your "experiment." I value the sourness of sourdough bread more than whether or not it is natural. Here is what I did that achieved so far the most sour sourdough bread without adding citric acid. But it wasn't quite sour enough for me (maybe 8/10). I doubled the ingredients in the levain and added an addition tablespoon of starter, which was 100 percent rye flour. I stirred the levain vigorously every few hours, kept at room temperature the whole while. After 8 hours, I added to the levain the amount of rye flour the recipe called for in the "dough phase," along with an equal amount of water. I let the levain sit on the counter, covered for a total of 20 hours. The levain was more sour (actually, unpleasantly sour) than any starter I've ever created. Then, I made the dough, subtracting out of the dough ingredients 100g of rye flour and 100g of water that I put in the levain. This sat on the counter for three hours, and I did 6 stretch and folds 30 minutes apart. Then I formed the dough into two loaves (the recipe called for more than 6 cups of all-purpose and rye flour. The dough then went into the refrigerator for 18 hours before I baked it. I would say it was my best all-around sourdough bread so far in which I did not add citric acid. My goal is to get a process that takes part of one day rather than 3 days, even if I have to use citric acid to get the sourness I want. I may also try a triple size levain created by removing even more flour and water from the dough phrase. So the total ingredients would be what the recipe calls for, but some would be moved to the levain phase rather than being used in the dough phase.
I keep my whole wheat starter in the fridge and always stir the hooch back in. I only feed when I’m getting low. The sour flavour I get is off the charts.
Have you tried adding diastatic malt powder to your sourdough recipe? Recently discovered adding a tsp of this diastatic malt powder yields a softer texture and enhances the flavor of the loaf.
Grant, thank you for your videos! And because of following your starter video and your bread recipe, my sourdough bread is a huge success. One thing about extra sour, I bring my starter from the fridge up to double, then when it starts to collapse, I put it back and the next day take 25g and feed it again to use for my recipe when it reaches peak expansion. It seems to produce an extra sour bread using that small tweak. Found out by accident as something came up and I had to abort my ferment. No conclusive proof (no pun intended), but along with a cold ferment of 12 hours I use this method, despite the extra time involved.
To my wife and I adding citric acid compromises the complex good taste that sourdough can bring. It can also more easily cause overproofing. It's not worth using it i don't think.
I love your videos Yours was the one my niece sent me and I have been making sourdough ever since. So funny you are searching for more of a sourdough flavor. In the beginning my bread was sour and now not too much. I have added homemade kefir and no luck Can’t wait til we figure it out!! Oh and I only put apples in the fridge if they are close to being too ripe. Thank you for your videos
I’m also interested in making extra-sour sourdough, so I will be following your experiments with interest. As I understand it, the sourness comes mainly from a combination of lactic acid, which imparts a sourness similar to that of yogurt or sour cream and acetic acid (vinegar), which adds tanginess. So I would imagine that adding those acids would lead to a more natural-tasting sourness, as opposed to adding citric acid. These are the factors I’ve read about that contribute to tanginess (favoring acetic acid production over lactic acid): fermentation at lower temperatures and drier conditions, longer fermentation, using more whole-wheat and rye flour, and parbaking. I’ve heard mixed messages about inoculation ratios. One school says that using more starter transfers more lactobacillus, and both lactic and acetic acids. The opposing theory is that using less starter leads to longer fermentation and more sourness. I’d love to hear about your experiences.
Thanks for your comment. I agree that citric acid definitely brings a flavor that's not inherent to sourdough. I've also heard conflicting messages about lactic acid and acetic acid, which one tastes more sour, using a stiff starter vs. liquid starter. There's a lot of information to sift through out there.
@GrantBakes If you want super sour sourdough bread let your starter ferment longer up front. OR if you do daily feedings starve your starter for a couple days. If you refrigerate it you will 1) slow down the speed @ which it eats the flour but 2) allow it to sour without risking it dying. Depending on how sour you want it you can wait until it is so hungry it creates a liquid on top of the starter then stir the liquid back into the starter give it a nice healthy feeding & then use as you normally would. Same with bulk ferment. Longer it goes the more gluten you lose. I did what you are doing a year or 2 ago & I made a different loaves of sourdough that were super sour. Some people I shared with liked it some did one. One loaf was so sour it actually gave me heartburn that one was the longest. The more you stress your starter the more sour it will become. If you do not discard it will also begin to be more sour. And yes longer bulk ferment = less oven spring. After your shaping you can let one cold ferment so long that it will breakdown nearly all the gluten & then gluten intolerant people are able to enjoy it without feeling crappy. Same with sourness; sourdough is a delicate balance of yeast & lactic acid bacteria. The more sour the less oven spring. You can make the dough so sour the yeast are unable to survive and get absolutely 0 oven spring. Or if your starter gets too sour this could kill it all together by the dough becoming too acidic for the yeast the survive/thrive enough. As far as apples it's up to whomever is eating them. I prefer cold apples--more snap to it. One time I was curious as to how long an apple would stay fresh in the fridge. I had a granny smith & it was there fine for a month or so. When I ate it it was like eating a red delicious with the flavor or granny smith. I prefer the hard snap/crunch of granny smith so I was not a fan of the chew quality but flavor was still just fine.
Apples in the fridge - maybe. It depends on the type of apple. Modern Hybrids probably do ok, but heritage varieties, nope! I’ve been working on fostering a more sour starter, and thus a more flavorful bread. I leave my starter on the counter and feed once each day. I don’t try to give equal parts starter/water/flour for each feeding, I just feed about 25-30 g flour and 25-30 g water each time. I use only whole grain flour for feeding. And once each week I feed it cultured buttermilk and whole grain rye. My starter is happy happy happy, and I have been getting yummy loaves!
Fascinating experiment, thank you for sharing with us! There's got to be a way to take advantage of the naturally-occurring bacteria to make a more sour loaf... Maybe a "flavor starter" that's left to ferment an extra long time?? 🤔
I agree, this sounds like a great idea. Maybe one portion of extra fermented starter for sour flavor, and a one portion of starter for its leavening power.
That experiment of yours saves me time. I tried something similar with cider vinegar... Don't try this. No apples in the fridge as it makes them mealy.
If you want sour sourdough, overferment in the fridge slightly. Go a day over the recommended fridge rest. Don't go much above 2 days more in the fridge. I did and the bread was so sour I chucked both loaves (with a few tears in my eyes.😢) it was putrid.
I had very good results using white vinegar! 1 TBSP per 1,000g flour. I did pick the same citric acid stuff up today, I'm going to try it on an artisan loaf tomorrow using KA AP, with a pinch of vital gluten and diastatic malt. Aiming for the ultimate fake sourdough.
@Only1loveray hi there, I did pick up the citric acid and never used it! 😄 I got the idea from a Reddit post. By the way, I tried the vinegar trick with just all purpose flour? Don't do it. It caused the dough to break down because it's lower protein than bread flour, only use bread flour.
I believe the natural acids found in sourdough bread and manufactured citric acid both enhance the keeping qualities of the bread. That is most likely one of the reasons that commercial "bakeries" add citric acid, especially if they're making fake sourdough without any starter.
I appreciate you! They are a little pricey, but I've been using them all of the time. I hope you enjoy yours. Thanks for the comment too, and for following along.
If you want more sour in your sourdough loaf bake it threw the first stage of your baking.. then remove it allow it to cool for 24 hours, then preheat the oven and bake for color uncovered for your remaining 15 minutes... wa la... more sour. The longer you keep it before you finish the bake the more sour it will become.
@GrantBakes I saw that video... but I don't think you waited long enough between the bakes... I have done it and there was a big difference but I did 24 hours in the fridge.
I too am a lover of sour sourdough. If anyone is up to trying another method, this guy tells your how he makes his sour: ruclips.net/video/KBt4ZIfv3oI/видео.html&ab_channel=RonTressler I've made multiple loafs and have gotten sour sourdough loafs. However, I do find that sometimes some loafs can be a little less sour than some others on and off at times. That being said I still stick to it and get sourness.
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I love that you made the third bread to answer the question of should I added more!! and YES, apples belong in the fridge!
I know, I do too. Was excited when you said you make a third.
Grant, thanks for sharing your "experiment." I value the sourness of sourdough bread more than whether or not it is natural. Here is what I did that achieved so far the most sour sourdough bread without adding citric acid. But it wasn't quite sour enough for me (maybe 8/10). I doubled the ingredients in the levain and added an addition tablespoon of starter, which was 100 percent rye flour. I stirred the levain vigorously every few hours, kept at room temperature the whole while. After 8 hours, I added to the levain the amount of rye flour the recipe called for in the "dough phase," along with an equal amount of water. I let the levain sit on the counter, covered for a total of 20 hours. The levain was more sour (actually, unpleasantly sour) than any starter I've ever created. Then, I made the dough, subtracting out of the dough ingredients 100g of rye flour and 100g of water that I put in the levain. This sat on the counter for three hours, and I did 6 stretch and folds 30 minutes apart. Then I formed the dough into two loaves (the recipe called for more than 6 cups of all-purpose and rye flour. The dough then went into the refrigerator for 18 hours before I baked it. I would say it was my best all-around sourdough bread so far in which I did not add citric acid. My goal is to get a process that takes part of one day rather than 3 days, even if I have to use citric acid to get the sourness I want. I may also try a triple size levain created by removing even more flour and water from the dough phrase. So the total ingredients would be what the recipe calls for, but some would be moved to the levain phase rather than being used in the dough phase.
I keep my whole wheat starter in the fridge and always stir the hooch back in. I only feed when I’m getting low. The sour flavour I get is off the charts.
Apples. 2-3 on the counter to eat. The rest in the fridge for longevity
Genius 😊
Appreciate your experiments. Keep searching, and I am sure you'll find that perfect loaf!😊
Interesting Grant,
Apple's in Frig, no problem 👍🏻
I love the way bakers gently pat their proofing dough before they leave it to rise. Also- apples not in fridge.
Yes, I put apples in the fridge. 👍🏼
Haha thank you!
@@GrantBakesme too
Me too
Thanks for baking tips. May try. Bless you
Have you tried adding diastatic malt powder to your sourdough recipe? Recently discovered adding a tsp of this diastatic malt powder yields a softer texture and enhances the flavor of the loaf.
Not yet 😊
Grant, thank you for your videos! And because of following your starter video and your bread recipe, my sourdough bread is a huge success. One thing about extra sour, I bring my starter from the fridge up to double, then when it starts to collapse, I put it back and the next day take 25g and feed it again to use for my recipe when it reaches peak expansion. It seems to produce an extra sour bread using that small tweak. Found out by accident as something came up and I had to abort my ferment. No conclusive proof (no pun intended), but along with a cold ferment of 12 hours I use this method, despite the extra time involved.
How about adding good old malt vinegar?
We eat a lot of apples and always keep them refrigerated
To my wife and I adding citric acid compromises the complex good taste that sourdough can bring. It can also more easily cause overproofing. It's not worth using it i don't think.
I love your videos Yours was the one my niece sent me and I have been making sourdough ever since. So funny you are searching for more of a sourdough flavor. In the beginning my bread was sour and now not too much. I have added homemade kefir and no luck Can’t wait til we figure it out!! Oh and I only put apples in the fridge if they are close to being too ripe. Thank you for your videos
When I used to make normal white bread, I used citric acid to keep it fresher for more than a day, which really helped....does it do the same here?
I’m also interested in making extra-sour sourdough, so I will be following your experiments with interest. As I understand it, the sourness comes mainly from a combination of lactic acid, which imparts a sourness similar to that of yogurt or sour cream and acetic acid (vinegar), which adds tanginess. So I would imagine that adding those acids would lead to a more natural-tasting sourness, as opposed to adding citric acid.
These are the factors I’ve read about that contribute to tanginess (favoring acetic acid production over lactic acid): fermentation at lower temperatures and drier conditions, longer fermentation, using more whole-wheat and rye flour, and parbaking. I’ve heard mixed messages about inoculation ratios. One school says that using more starter transfers more lactobacillus, and both lactic and acetic acids. The opposing theory is that using less starter leads to longer fermentation and more sourness. I’d love to hear about your experiences.
Thanks for your comment. I agree that citric acid definitely brings a flavor that's not inherent to sourdough. I've also heard conflicting messages about lactic acid and acetic acid, which one tastes more sour, using a stiff starter vs. liquid starter. There's a lot of information to sift through out there.
Yes, apples in the fridge 😎
@GrantBakes
If you want super sour sourdough bread let your starter ferment longer up front. OR if you do daily feedings starve your starter for a couple days. If you refrigerate it you will 1) slow down the speed @ which it eats the flour but 2) allow it to sour without risking it dying.
Depending on how sour you want it you can wait until it is so hungry it creates a liquid on top of the starter then stir the liquid back into the starter give it a nice healthy feeding & then use as you normally would. Same with bulk ferment. Longer it goes the more gluten you lose.
I did what you are doing a year or 2 ago & I made a different loaves of sourdough that were super sour. Some people I shared with liked it some did one. One loaf was so sour it actually gave me heartburn that one was the longest.
The more you stress your starter the more sour it will become. If you do not discard it will also begin to be more sour. And yes longer bulk ferment = less oven spring. After your shaping you can let one cold ferment so long that it will breakdown nearly all the gluten & then gluten intolerant people are able to enjoy it without feeling crappy. Same with sourness; sourdough is a delicate balance of yeast & lactic acid bacteria. The more sour the less oven spring. You can make the dough so sour the yeast are unable to survive and get absolutely 0 oven spring. Or if your starter gets too sour this could kill it all together by the dough becoming too acidic for the yeast the survive/thrive enough.
As far as apples it's up to whomever is eating them. I prefer cold apples--more snap to it. One time I was curious as to how long an apple would stay fresh in the fridge. I had a granny smith & it was there fine for a month or so. When I ate it it was like eating a red delicious with the flavor or granny smith. I prefer the hard snap/crunch of granny smith so I was not a fan of the chew quality but flavor was still just fine.
Apples in the fridge - maybe. It depends on the type of apple. Modern Hybrids probably do ok, but heritage varieties, nope!
I’ve been working on fostering a more sour starter, and thus a more flavorful bread. I leave my starter on the counter and feed once each day. I don’t try to give equal parts starter/water/flour for each feeding, I just feed about 25-30 g flour and 25-30 g water each time. I use only whole grain flour for feeding. And once each week I feed it cultured buttermilk and whole grain rye.
My starter is happy happy happy, and I have been getting yummy loaves!
Cool experiment!
Thanks!
Fascinating experiment, thank you for sharing with us! There's got to be a way to take advantage of the naturally-occurring bacteria to make a more sour loaf... Maybe a "flavor starter" that's left to ferment an extra long time?? 🤔
I agree, this sounds like a great idea. Maybe one portion of extra fermented starter for sour flavor, and a one portion of starter for its leavening power.
That experiment of yours saves me time.
I tried something similar with cider vinegar... Don't try this.
No apples in the fridge as it makes them mealy.
Apple no in fridge. Any fruit or veggie you buy at room temp you store at room temp. Thanks for the citric acid tip. I really want sour sourdough 🤣
Also people say vinegar adds sour flavor
If you want sour sourdough, overferment in the fridge slightly. Go a day over the recommended fridge rest. Don't go much above 2 days more in the fridge. I did and the bread was so sour I chucked both loaves (with a few tears in my eyes.😢) it was putrid.
Yes , apples only in the fridge. I like them crispy. I don’t buy mushy ones.
I had very good results using white vinegar! 1 TBSP per 1,000g flour. I did pick the same citric acid stuff up today, I'm going to try it on an artisan loaf tomorrow using KA AP, with a pinch of vital gluten and diastatic malt. Aiming for the ultimate fake sourdough.
Update? I’m on a mission for the perfect fake sourdough as well 😅. I need sour! Or else it’s not worth even making anymore.
@Only1loveray hi there, I did pick up the citric acid and never used it! 😄 I got the idea from a Reddit post. By the way, I tried the vinegar trick with just all purpose flour? Don't do it. It caused the dough to break down because it's lower protein than bread flour, only use bread flour.
How would buttermilk make it taste?
Oooh now you’re asking some good questions…🤔
I read that citic acid is made from mold and not a citrus fruit. I buy organic from citrus fruit.
Yes, apples in the fridge, after a baking soda and water bath
Yes to apples in the fridge, keeps them fresh longer, go cubs!
Isn’t it to help the bread last longer?
I believe the natural acids found in sourdough bread and manufactured citric acid both enhance the keeping qualities of the bread. That is most likely one of the reasons that commercial "bakeries" add citric acid, especially if they're making fake sourdough without any starter.
Citric acid is basically vitamin C, so it’s not the worst thing ever.
I ordered one of the lily pads. They are quite expensive. Nevertheless, it’s done.
I appreciate you! They are a little pricey, but I've been using them all of the time. I hope you enjoy yours. Thanks for the comment too, and for following along.
Mine are identical as the ones in the video, I bought mine years ago and every size, love them. I have the smaller glass covers also
But why would you?!?😮
Have I gone too far??
Yes apples belong in the fridge
Apples in the fridge last longer 😊
Apples in refrigerator
Go Natural ….. no on citric acid!😂
RIP citric acid
Good thoughts! I should have guessed you’d say that about citric acid, as any sourdough lover might.
1t per 1000 grams flour is what I’ve read
If you want more sour in your sourdough loaf bake it threw the first stage of your baking.. then remove it allow it to cool for 24 hours, then preheat the oven and bake for color uncovered for your remaining 15 minutes... wa la... more sour. The longer you keep it before you finish the bake the more sour it will become.
I tried this method in the previous video and it didn’t work for me. Interesting method though!
@GrantBakes I saw that video... but I don't think you waited long enough between the bakes... I have done it and there was a big difference but I did 24 hours in the fridge.
Yep... and oranges
Yo Mr Yoder do remember 6th grade Spanish
Of course!
Have you actually seen how citric acid is made?? You might want to rethink this approach.
I too am a lover of sour sourdough. If anyone is up to trying another method, this guy tells your how he makes his sour: ruclips.net/video/KBt4ZIfv3oI/видео.html&ab_channel=RonTressler
I've made multiple loafs and have gotten sour sourdough loafs. However, I do find that sometimes some loafs can be a little less sour than some others on and off at times. That being said I still stick to it and get sourness.