I hope the Riffsters get a hold of the new brought up to date sandwich's. They should really have updated the name. Spicy chicken and avocado flatbread, perhaps.
They are an amazing company Sugden. They seem to brush off fashion trends and just chug along making superb sounding and superbly made products. Good riff chaps. 🙂
Asking a premium price for the something that could be made on a production line much cheaper. This hi-fi is speculative, these things with off-the-shelf regular components do sell like jewelry, when it's a toroidal transformer with capacitors and transistors of a much less value than the asking price, with technology from 50 years ago.
I have an IA-4 as well in the basement for my second system, it is an amazing amp. I have it paired with a pair of PMC Twenty5.22i speakers. How about you?
Nice / fun "riff" ... which as a Sugden fan, I am happy to see, again (reference their DAC-4 riff) Though as an A21 Signature (the "baby sister") owner, I do take umbrage with their characterization the SE is where Sugden "gets serious" and their slight of the preamp section of the A21 Signature ... While the A21 Signature and the A21SE Signature do in fact share the same output amplification modules, with differences in the power supplies and preamp section (though not necessarily "better"), there of those of us which prefer the "baby sister" over the bigger brothers and sisters in the entire Sugden family ... That's not to cast shade on the rest of the family ... rather, simply to say / agree, I would choose any Sugden model over most of a price peer competitor ... I personally have chosen the A21 Signature over the SE and bigger siblings based on the sound / performance of the "baby" ... Again, nice / fun review and am always happy to see a review of a Sugden model ... just, don't cast shade on a sibling, they are all wonderful and have their own "take on" / "approach to" reproducing sound, even with all (but the ANV-50) being Class A ... And for the record, my A21 Signature replaced a significantly higher powered and priced (4x) integrated amplifier, which the A21SE Signature would have been more a peer of "macro dynamically", but there is just a bit more of the "continuous-ness" of a live, un / minimally amplified, acoustic instrument's sound with the baby's reproduction ... though most would not place the A21 Signature in a signal chain with sources (TT & CD) and speakers each being 3 - 4x its retail ... Though, again, the A21SE Signature certainly has more macro dynamic swing and slam ... It all comes down to one's system, musical preferences and ear (what one focuses on in reproduced sound) ... keep up the good work HF R gang and happy listening all
Brilliant Riff guys. The Sugden Appreciation Society will be pleased. It’s a great amplifier but if you need more power there’s the ANV-50 50w in to 8ohms/100w in to 4ohms £4,790 or the IA4 33w in to 8ohms at £6,649 all available as a custom colour for additional £135.00. It’ll last you a lifetime. My Sugden A48B is over 30yrs old & it plays rock really well as well as prog!
@@mikemcguinness1304 Tge ANV-50 is a different beast altogether than the A21 but if you’re looking for something that will drive awkward loads then that is your cheapest option for a Sugden. You could go to their SPA-4 power amplifier or a couple of MPA-4 monoblocks. But we are talking about £1,800 more for SPA-4 & £8,300 more for the MPA-4. Hand built audio is expensive unless you’re willing to outsource to China. My Sugden A48B is a class A/B amplifier & it’s not going anywhere. Especially as I’ve had it for over 30yrs.
@christopherfox735 yes I know , it's very different. That's why I sent it back after I questioned the value of it . Shame sugden don't bring out class a 30 what power amps and a 21 pre , then I'd be interested
Mike, my original 1972 Sugden A21 surprisingly drove my 1982 Linn Saras very well. Yes the bass was just a little soft but the combination was so musical!
I run a pair of Klipsch Cornwall IVs with this amp in quite a large room (20f x 20f) and it is just brilliant. Added the Sugden DAC-4 recently and am absolutely thrilled by the sound.
Might be a teensy bit underpowered, but it depends how loud you listen and what you listen to. Should be good for most people on most music, I'd guess.
If you listen to classic, or the radio, you might be happy with it. But if you listen to free jazz or something with high dynamics, I would go for a used pair of LEAK SANDWICH speakers. Way more responsive and fun.
I have this amp. I’ve owned Kenwood>Sony>Krell>Hegel>Schiit Aegir>SPL>Musical FidelityA1. The Sugden A21SE is my all time fave of what I’ve owned. It is a wonderfully euphoric sounding amp.
Sold mine last year raising money for something. With the intention to replace with something at a later date. Well that later date is nearly here and I'm thinking it was a big mistake given to replace it would cost me double what I originally paid 🤦 Beautiful amp. Appreciate the video guys.
I want a set of kerr acoustics speakers! Those new bookshelves look really interesting. Curious to know more about them, costs, ECT. The sugden would be killer in my rig. I built a pair of aperiodic transmission line cabs (quite large) for a eight inch full range driver. It's a paper cone under hung voice coil and huge 10lb alnico magnets. It's got some beautiful detail and plays wonderfully with a solid state amp with a tube preamplifier. They are 94db efficient. I bet that sugden would slay with this set up. When i fire it up all these thoughts go away. Still that sugden in anodized blue would melt me.
I have this amp, my days it's glorious. Instruments sound like instruments, the decay structure of bells, acoustics, and cymbals is beguiling. But it’s main strength is vocals, it places them front and centre of the performance. I have it paired with a set of ProAcs D20Rs and a R26 ladder dac and I love the combination. I will disagree with you slightly, the Sugden sounds good as soon as you turn it on, but you can hear it getting better as it warms up. I think it really gets into its stride after about an hour. Glad you all liked it though, great riff.
Best riff in 2024 so far! After my old A1 i've always wanted a larger 'class A' so really interesting. As always, love the music choices and references to 2 stroke bikes!
I Have the Sugden MPA-4 mono blocks for my main system, and an IA-4 in the basement. I am a huge Sugden fan, will be for life. Have you guys at Hi-Fi Riff, ever heard these amps?
I had a vintage MF A-100 X, which got much hotter and failed after two years. The A21SE is not hot enough that you can get burned short term, but will for sure cook your hand if you leave it on it. IMHO no problem with non toddler kids.
4 years ago I purchased factory-new Sugden A21 Signature and by all means I do not consider any replacement. Ca. 6 months ago I paired my set: Atoll CD 100 Signature, Tellurium Black II with Kerr Acoustic K320 mk3 speakers. Spending whole day listening to them I realised how good are my DIY floor 3 way speakers, built with Scanspeak & Seas speakers, costing 50% less. I could not find major difference in sound between my own and KA set.. They sounded well in all aspects but did not beat my own..
This is such a lovely amp. Love it so much. So musical, natural and shining mids. Have anybody tried to connect a preamp to it? Does it makes sense? Cause the signal would be amplified twice, hence to the build in preamp. But i'm curious, how the sound could change. Any recommendations for a preamp for the A21Se?
Regarding this Al Jarreau's CD.... I do not have original one, but is there some differences between first three songs and the other ones in slightly different sound - sound quality? After 3rd song sound is a bit more mature, coherent and fuller. Any similar impressions or feedback please?
Great video guys. I got my Sugden A21se about two years ago and use it with the Volti Audio Razz LE (claimed sensitivity of 97db). System has pretty great synergy, sometimes I wish I had ordered the base model that some people claim has a near tube-like quality. Always enjoy your vids... keep it up!
Mike and David brought along their Son today. 😉 Seriously though, Jes Kerr seems like a cool guy. I really like the Sugden brand. Owned the standard, non SE, 21 Signature for a few years. Within its power limits it is an awesome amplifier.
Love what you guys do and watch most episodes. I was wondering if you would go for something just a little different, like a retro riff on dead Japanese brand 'Sansui'. I took a punt on a circa 1970 Au 222 model from eBay and after a little restoration using salvaged, contemporary good parts, I can honestly say it's one of, if not the best amp I've ever heard!!! Just an idea...
The 1970s Sansui amps are very special. I have an Au 101, which I recapped, an Au-7700 integrated with matching tuner, and am working on a beautiful Ba-f1 power amp at present. Best VU meters ever. They sound wonderful in that soft, warm cozy 70s way. A riff on this almost forgotten brand would be great, but it would push the prices up, so just ignore everything I just said. Sansui are rubbish.
@@jimfarrell4635 I've trialled all the so-called contemporary award winners... Amps, speakers, powered speakers, streaming speakers, class A, A/B, D, G thousands of pounds worth... but nothing has the 'magic' of this little box. Since I got it I just can't stop listening to the music... and I'm no longer listening to 'the equipment '
@@TheKapeeteeleestPeegYep. We agree. They did nice turntables also. I reconditioned an Sr 222 mk 2 and it's a very decent table. I also picked up a Technics SL7 after the Riff reviewed the Sl10. I'm currently rebuilding a pair of vintage Tannoy Eatons and when finished will have a full vintage system to run in parallel with my contemporary system. Looking forward to it.
@@JerryM-p2v Older B&W 801s/805s, etc. are nothing like later B&Ws. They were designed to be very linear. My 805s are within +/- 1.75 dB and do not have an elevated treble. I ran them with a Cary tube integrated for a while, and the sound was actually too warm for my taste. The Sugden suits my taste perfectly. Zero brightness or highlighting of the upper frequencies.
@@ChicagoRob2 Right on. I used to have the B&W CM series speakers, i found them to be a good pairing with my Arcam A-49 amp, which was on the warm and dull side.
I remember the original Sugden A21 very well. We had them on dem in our shop. Funny thing was I never sold one on dem but we did sell a few on mail order. So, did the mail order customers listen to it else ware or purchase it because someone recommended it to them? Personally, I found it very lacking in power, poor dynamic range and quite a dull presentation. Customers also commented much the same after the dem. Class A is really a bit of con. Afterall it's a class AB with more bias to remove crossover distortion. So, if you remove crossover distortion it performs just like a class A without consuming many amps of current to just heat the room. Making it very expensive to build with huge transformers, massive heatsinks etc. All of which add NOTHING to the sound. So, if you compare the waveforms of a class A to a class AB you will see ZERO difference. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with the sound of class A because it both measures and sound the same, simply because it is the same! Class AB can sound better simply because it will tend to have more power, dynamic range. Most amplifiers with more power, tend to sound better, given the same quality spec of course! People convince themselves, well, it cost double a class AB, weighs a ton, gets very hot, gotta be better? (hot electronics is NEVER a good idea) Maybe just a little snake oil. Before anyone asks, what does he know?? Worked for Quad in the lab, senior test engineer Cambridge Audio, Founder member of Monitor Audio, Retailer Audio T Cambridge. etc. Senior engineer UCI cinemas working on Amplifiers, speakers, Dolby, Digital. RUclips channel.
Yep started my journey with the Sugden A21, fell in love with class A… went to Hegel 390 class AB and very much disliked it, no soul! Back to Class A with Vitus 025, stunning! It’s all personal taste. Great video of that lovely 21SE gents 👍
They do have that slight bass softness and smoothness higher up. I love the design of the one I have too. I generally don't use it though. People would hate this but I actually want to put a purifi class D into it. But at the same time the signal chain for the purifi amp is different due to using a DAC and volume elsewhere, so I guess I don't need to waste a perfectly working amp :)
Not every speaker works good with a tube amp - or a class a amp like a Sugden A21. Not every dealer gets the high sensitivity speaker - class a or tube synergy right.
Solid-state Class A as hi-fi's equivalent of the two-stroke engine? An interesting comparison. Perhaps Cleckheaton should have been twinned with Zschopau* some time in the late '60s. *The 'Z' in MZ. Like Cleckheaton, a small valley town some way distant from the epicentre of the industry. Sugden later moved to Heckmondwike, MZ to oblivion.
They pair great with Dynaudio, special 40, contour20i, and up the confidence line. I am running my IA-4 with PMC twenty5 22i speakers, made in the UK as well. Amazing pairing.
I wasn't with you on this until you showed the blue version. Wow...now that's classy! Isn't it strange how design and colour can influence our hi-fi purchases? Now, there's a topic for you in the future.
You don't get a lot of headroom before saturating the inputs, thats the only real (little) niggle. Those extra hot DACs and streamer outputs can be a bit of a nuisance
I have my SUGDEN A21SE SIGNATURE Graphite . Everything said in this video about this British 🇬🇧gem 💎 of an amplifier is true. You simply want to have it even if you already have a magnificent amplifier 10 times more expensive.
Harley Lovegrove is a big Sugden fan, but feels the build quality is a little wanting. I was surprised, because they look solid in images and on video. ( and I realise that's a kind of stupid thing to say). What is the opinion of the Riff. I know they are heavy, but that doesn't always equal well put together.
The A21SE and the DAC-4 are British Brutalism at its finest, very good build and fun to listen to. Nothing flimsy on them. I can not speak to the power knobs on the bigger amps.
@@melchior-chr.v.brincken8006British Brutalism. I like that. Evocative. I have an old DK design amp I can't bear to get rid of, despite the fact it weighs about 90lbs and looks a bit like a mini fridge. An incidence of American Brutalism, I guess, but it doesn't roll off the tongue in the same way.
REM were a great band.OK,I might sound old,but you don't get bands of that quality in the modern age,especially on radio 1 as would have once been the case. I like the red colour of that amp. I'm sure it has some of the Sugden rich and fluid quality about it sonically too.
A HiFi guy goes for a test drive in a Rolls Royce, along with the manager and puts some chill-out tunes on the player. The guy starts fiddling around with things and opens the glove box. He finds some short spilkey things with little cups on top. He asks the manager about them and the manager replies that he should use them to rest his balls on while he's driving, The HiFi guy says, OH YEAH, that's much better.
High power like musical fidelity have the grunt but at the same time they lose the fitness of the low power amplifiers, parallel output transistors of the high power amps can't be matched to be exactly absolutely and they take a toll on the sound. That's why class A single ended amplifiers sound so good in expense of low end tightness lightness and grunt (sometimes). In The end it's a matter of choice, low end tightness and grunt ,or finesse. 👍
c'est simple sugden a une histoire , et il savent comment avoir un son qui leur plaise , ils savent régler les contre reactions locales et globale , utiliser des montages et des composants qui sonnent bien , faire de tres bonnes alimentations
Will be plenty of power ... forget the "watts / channel" rating and give it a listen ... but will be different sounding than other amplifiers feeding / driving them
I lived with an A21SE for several months. Having tried hard to like it, I could not and here's why. It has too high an input sensitivity and as a result audibly clips very easily, sounding hard and edgy as a result. It was only listenable by nudging the output of my DAC down to 1V., and I'm aware that some A21Se owners can only use them with inline attenuators at the inputs. One argument might be that this was a speaker compatibility issue, but my ProAc DB1s are supposed to get on well with Sugdens and I also used KEF LS50s, which were even worse. Try before you buy.
Maybe you can help me decide on a better integrated amp to pair with the Proac Db1 since i own the same model and has been combing owners experience with the Proacs. TIA
Shrunk in the wash = Ruined = reduced to a state of decay, collapse, or disintegration, having been irreparably damaged or harmed. Jesus, poor Sugden A21se...
KH 500 and lived to tell the tale . Richard Allen tweeters were one of the prefered upgrades to Videoton Minimax. Such an obvious age gap on show here..two old farts ''half a point''.... young whipper snapper....'' point 5''
Now don't take this the wrong way, but when I saw the three of you on the sofa the first thing that came to mind was two creepy schoolteachers grooming a student... Actually, there isn't really a right way to take that. So I'll just apologise.
I have the Sugden A21SE (Orange) - and the DAC-4. Gorgeous combination - with vintage LEAK 250 Sandwich speakers.
I bet. The DAC is superb.
I hope the Riffsters get a hold of the new brought up to date sandwich's. They should really have updated the name. Spicy chicken and avocado flatbread, perhaps.
@@jimfarrell4635 On order.
@@MrVinylista Beats my MHDT Orchid (TDA1541) which bettered the Metrum Amethyst.
I like to sample down highres files to 16bit / 48khz.
They are an amazing company Sugden. They seem to brush off fashion trends and just chug along making superb sounding and superbly made products. Good riff chaps. 🙂
Yep they have folks with 30 years of company time sitting at benches building these amps by hand.
Asking a premium price for the something that could be made on a production line much cheaper. This hi-fi is speculative, these things with off-the-shelf regular components do sell like jewelry, when it's a toroidal transformer with capacitors and transistors of a much less value than the asking price, with technology from 50 years ago.
Love a bit of Mike and Dave and Jes's Hi Fi Riff 😂. But seriously, good to see Jes on again.
Love the channel and especially the motorcycle references. I’m a old RD/RZ man myself so these references speak to me.
Thanks guys. I loved hearing about this amp as I have this on my radar or some sort of Sugden amp in the future.
I have an IA4 bought a few months back and it is simply brilliant.
I have an IA-4 as well in the basement for my second system, it is an amazing amp. I have it paired with a pair of PMC Twenty5.22i speakers. How about you?
Ooooh me too, hooked up to Klipsch Forte III's. Very nice.
Nice / fun "riff" ... which as a Sugden fan, I am happy to see, again (reference their DAC-4 riff) Though as an A21 Signature (the "baby sister") owner, I do take umbrage with their characterization the SE is where Sugden "gets serious" and their slight of the preamp section of the A21 Signature ... While the A21 Signature and the A21SE Signature do in fact share the same output amplification modules, with differences in the power supplies and preamp section (though not necessarily "better"), there of those of us which prefer the "baby sister" over the bigger brothers and sisters in the entire Sugden family ... That's not to cast shade on the rest of the family ... rather, simply to say / agree, I would choose any Sugden model over most of a price peer competitor ... I personally have chosen the A21 Signature over the SE and bigger siblings based on the sound / performance of the "baby" ... Again, nice / fun review and am always happy to see a review of a Sugden model ... just, don't cast shade on a sibling, they are all wonderful and have their own "take on" / "approach to" reproducing sound, even with all (but the ANV-50) being Class A ... And for the record, my A21 Signature replaced a significantly higher powered and priced (4x) integrated amplifier, which the A21SE Signature would have been more a peer of "macro dynamically", but there is just a bit more of the "continuous-ness" of a live, un / minimally amplified, acoustic instrument's sound with the baby's reproduction ... though most would not place the A21 Signature in a signal chain with sources (TT & CD) and speakers each being 3 - 4x its retail ... Though, again, the A21SE Signature certainly has more macro dynamic swing and slam ... It all comes down to one's system, musical preferences and ear (what one focuses on in reproduced sound) ... keep up the good work HF R gang and happy listening all
Brilliant Riff guys. The Sugden Appreciation Society will be pleased. It’s a great amplifier but if you need more power there’s the ANV-50 50w in to 8ohms/100w in to 4ohms £4,790 or the IA4 33w in to 8ohms at £6,649 all available as a custom colour for additional £135.00. It’ll last you a lifetime. My Sugden A48B is over 30yrs old & it plays rock really well as well as prog!
I had an IA4 on long loan, 15 or so years ago, and loved it.
The anv 50 isn't class A. And it isn't worth 5k at all . No where near as good as a 21
@@mikemcguinness1304 depends on what one listens for ... though I prefer the "baby" A21 Signature over all of Sugden's offerings / stable
@@mikemcguinness1304 Tge ANV-50 is a different beast altogether than the A21 but if you’re looking for something that will drive awkward loads then that is your cheapest option for a Sugden. You could go to their SPA-4 power amplifier or a couple of MPA-4 monoblocks. But we are talking about £1,800 more for SPA-4 & £8,300 more for the MPA-4. Hand built audio is expensive unless you’re willing to outsource to China. My Sugden A48B is a class A/B amplifier & it’s not going anywhere. Especially as I’ve had it for over 30yrs.
@christopherfox735 yes I know , it's very different. That's why I sent it back after I questioned the value of it .
Shame sugden don't bring out class a 30 what power amps and a 21 pre , then I'd be interested
Mike, my original 1972 Sugden A21 surprisingly drove my 1982 Linn Saras very well. Yes the bass was just a little soft but the combination was so musical!
Excellent! I'm hoping to prise it from David's grasp at some point and try it!
@@Hi-FiRiff Never!
how would the SQ compare to pass labs xa25?
I run a pair of Klipsch Cornwall IVs with this amp in quite a large room (20f x 20f) and it is just brilliant. Added the Sugden DAC-4 recently and am absolutely thrilled by the sound.
Would this work well with Graham Audio LS 5/9 in a medium sized room 4x4 meters ?
Might be a teensy bit underpowered, but it depends how loud you listen and what you listen to. Should be good for most people on most music, I'd guess.
plenty of power ... you might also take a listen to the "baby sister" A21 Signature as well
If you listen to classic, or the radio, you might be happy with it. But if you listen to free jazz or something with high dynamics, I would go for a used pair of LEAK SANDWICH speakers. Way more responsive and fun.
Awesome review and banter!
Thanks for the Al Jarreau tip. Beautiful album!
I have this amp. I’ve owned Kenwood>Sony>Krell>Hegel>Schiit Aegir>SPL>Musical FidelityA1. The Sugden A21SE is my all time fave of what I’ve owned. It is a wonderfully euphoric sounding amp.
Sold mine last year raising money for something. With the intention to replace with something at a later date. Well that later date is nearly here and I'm thinking it was a big mistake given to replace it would cost me double what I originally paid 🤦 Beautiful amp. Appreciate the video guys.
I really appreciated your discussion of this amp. Would you or anyone else mind elaborating on the pros and cons compared to the Exposure 3510?
I want a set of kerr acoustics speakers! Those new bookshelves look really interesting. Curious to know more about them, costs, ECT. The sugden would be killer in my rig. I built a pair of aperiodic transmission line cabs (quite large) for a eight inch full range driver. It's a paper cone under hung voice coil and huge 10lb alnico magnets. It's got some beautiful detail and plays wonderfully with a solid state amp with a tube preamplifier. They are 94db efficient. I bet that sugden would slay with this set up. When i fire it up all these thoughts go away. Still that sugden in anodized blue would melt me.
Absolutely!
We both want the Kerrs too!
Mike
Love the red
Hi great channel guys ! What would be the expected retail price for the speakers? I love them
Excellent question! @jes?
TBC, but likely to be inkeeping with the cost of this rather tasty amplifier 😀
How would this amplifier do with dynaudio Sp 40 at 86 db at 6 ohm
@@geraldgreene5563 sorry won’t work on this one.88db efficient upwards at 6 or 8ohms should work best.from what I have experienced!
I guess I can rule the 21Se out then
I have this amp, my days it's glorious. Instruments sound like instruments, the decay structure of bells, acoustics, and cymbals is beguiling. But it’s main strength is vocals, it places them front and centre of the performance. I have it paired with a set of ProAcs D20Rs and a R26 ladder dac and I love the combination. I will disagree with you slightly, the Sugden sounds good as soon as you turn it on, but you can hear it getting better as it warms up. I think it really gets into its stride after about an hour. Glad you all liked it though, great riff.
Best riff in 2024 so far! After my old A1 i've always wanted a larger 'class A' so really interesting. As always, love the music choices and references to 2 stroke bikes!
We love our 2 strokes.
I have had a few including a very fun kawasaki kr1s!
Mike
@@Hi-FiRiff oooo that was a a rare bike and even rarer now!! I bowed out at the RD125
@@roryyoung6192 I still have a Honda MTX200R! Sadly in bits at the moment!
@@MrVinylista cracking bike!!
Acquired the A21SE last year and currently using with BMR Monitors, a nice combination.
when you go up the Sugden chain, the sound is pure bliss.
Thx!Larry,Curly & Moe.Great video and I am looking to pick a A21SE up this week to match with my Klipsch Cornwall IV's.
Who is who I wonder?
Mike 😁
"If you like death metal and enjoy tinnitus".... I feel observed! :)
I Have the Sugden MPA-4 mono blocks for my main system, and an IA-4 in the basement. I am a huge Sugden fan, will be for life. Have you guys at Hi-Fi Riff, ever heard these amps?
wow seems awesome !...is it better than the original vintage A-21 from sugden❓what tubes come in them and should i replace them?
Solid state
I would love to know how well this would work with my Dynaudio Heritage Specials, 4ohm rated
Dyn speakers are power hungry. I would step up to the Sugden IA-4 then you will never look back. Sugden and Dynaudio pair well together.
Do this amp class A runs hot or warm compare to musical fedility ? Tq
I had a vintage MF A-100 X, which got much hotter and failed after two years.
The A21SE is not hot enough that you can get burned short term, but will for sure cook your hand if you leave it on it.
IMHO no problem with non toddler kids.
Does this amp have a HT bypass feature? thx
4 years ago I purchased factory-new Sugden A21 Signature and by all means I do not consider any replacement. Ca. 6 months ago I paired my set: Atoll CD 100 Signature, Tellurium Black II with Kerr Acoustic K320 mk3 speakers. Spending whole day listening to them I realised how good are my DIY floor 3 way speakers, built with Scanspeak & Seas speakers, costing 50% less. I could not find major difference in sound between my own and KA set.. They sounded well in all aspects but did not beat my own..
This is such a lovely amp. Love it so much. So musical, natural and shining mids. Have anybody tried to connect a preamp to it? Does it makes sense? Cause the signal would be amplified twice, hence to the build in preamp. But i'm curious, how the sound could change. Any recommendations for a preamp for the A21Se?
Regarding this Al Jarreau's CD.... I do not have original one, but is there some differences between first three songs and the other ones in slightly different sound - sound quality? After 3rd song sound is a bit more mature, coherent and fuller. Any similar impressions or feedback please?
Great video guys. I got my Sugden A21se about two years ago and use it with the Volti Audio Razz LE (claimed sensitivity of 97db). System has pretty great synergy, sometimes I wish I had ordered the base model that some people claim has a near tube-like quality. Always enjoy your vids... keep it up!
Mike and David brought along their Son today. 😉 Seriously though, Jes Kerr seems like a cool guy.
I really like the Sugden brand. Owned the standard, non SE, 21 Signature for a few years. Within its power limits it is an awesome amplifier.
Love what you guys do and watch most episodes.
I was wondering if you would go for something just a little different, like a retro riff on dead Japanese brand 'Sansui'.
I took a punt on a circa 1970 Au 222 model from eBay and after a little restoration using salvaged, contemporary good parts, I can honestly say it's one of, if not the best amp I've ever heard!!!
Just an idea...
My first "hi fi" amp was a sansui!
Mike
The 1970s Sansui amps are very special. I have an Au 101, which I recapped, an Au-7700 integrated with matching tuner, and am working on a beautiful Ba-f1 power amp at present. Best VU meters ever.
They sound wonderful in that soft, warm cozy 70s way. A riff on this almost forgotten brand would be great, but it would push the prices up, so just ignore everything I just said. Sansui are rubbish.
@@jimfarrell4635
I've trialled all the so-called contemporary award winners...
Amps, speakers, powered speakers, streaming speakers, class A, A/B, D, G thousands of pounds worth... but nothing has the 'magic' of this little box.
Since I got it I just can't stop listening to the music... and I'm no longer listening to 'the equipment '
@@TheKapeeteeleestPeegYep. We agree. They did nice turntables also. I reconditioned an Sr 222 mk 2 and it's a very decent table. I also picked up a Technics SL7 after the Riff reviewed the Sl10. I'm currently rebuilding a pair of vintage Tannoy Eatons and when finished will have a full vintage system to run in parallel with my contemporary system. Looking forward to it.
The A21 SE is end-game for me. It drives my moderately-efficient B&W Matrix 805s with ease. Delivery is effortless and so very musical.
Do you find the B&W speakers bright with a class A amp?
@@JerryM-p2v Older B&W 801s/805s, etc. are nothing like later B&Ws. They were designed to be very linear. My 805s are within +/- 1.75 dB and do not have an elevated treble. I ran them with a Cary tube integrated for a while, and the sound was actually too warm for my taste. The Sugden suits my taste perfectly. Zero brightness or highlighting of the upper frequencies.
@@ChicagoRob2 Right on. I used to have the B&W CM series speakers, i found them to be a good pairing with my Arcam A-49 amp, which was on the warm and dull side.
I own a Sugden a21se signature and even death metal sounds fantastic 😊
Are you running Klipsch La Scalas?
@@MrVinylista No, Totem signature one ;)
Good to hear. I listen to 90% metal. The amp puts me right there - it’s amazing.
This amp looks to get great reviews. How would it fair driving Dali Opticon 6's at 89db's?
I remember the original Sugden A21 very well. We had them on dem in our shop. Funny thing was I never sold one on dem but we did sell a few on mail order. So, did the mail order customers listen to it else ware or purchase it because someone recommended it to them?
Personally, I found it very lacking in power, poor dynamic range and quite a dull presentation. Customers also commented much the same after the dem.
Class A is really a bit of con. Afterall it's a class AB with more bias to remove crossover distortion. So, if you remove crossover distortion it performs just like a class A without consuming many amps of current to just heat the room. Making it very expensive to build with huge transformers, massive heatsinks etc. All of which add NOTHING to the sound. So, if you compare the waveforms of a class A to a class AB you will see ZERO difference. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with the sound of class A because it both measures and sound the same, simply because it is the same! Class AB can sound better simply because it will tend to have more power, dynamic range. Most amplifiers with more power, tend to sound better, given the same quality spec of course!
People convince themselves, well, it cost double a class AB, weighs a ton, gets very hot, gotta be better? (hot electronics is NEVER a good idea) Maybe just a little snake oil. Before anyone asks, what does he know??
Worked for Quad in the lab, senior test engineer Cambridge Audio, Founder member of Monitor Audio, Retailer Audio T Cambridge. etc. Senior engineer UCI cinemas working on Amplifiers, speakers, Dolby, Digital. RUclips channel.
Yep started my journey with the Sugden A21, fell in love with class A… went to Hegel 390 class AB and very much disliked it, no soul! Back to Class A with Vitus 025, stunning! It’s all personal taste.
Great video of that lovely 21SE gents 👍
They do have that slight bass softness and smoothness higher up. I love the design of the one I have too. I generally don't use it though.
People would hate this but I actually want to put a purifi class D into it. But at the same time the signal chain for the purifi amp is different due to using a DAC and volume elsewhere, so I guess I don't need to waste a perfectly working amp :)
Not every speaker works good with a tube amp - or a class a amp like a Sugden A21.
Not every dealer gets the high sensitivity speaker - class a or tube synergy right.
Solid-state Class A as hi-fi's equivalent of the two-stroke engine? An interesting comparison. Perhaps Cleckheaton should have been twinned with Zschopau* some time in the late '60s.
*The 'Z' in MZ. Like Cleckheaton, a small valley town some way distant from the epicentre of the industry. Sugden later moved to Heckmondwike, MZ to oblivion.
what Sugden pairs best with Tannoy Berkeley speakers?
They pair great with Dynaudio, special 40, contour20i, and up the confidence line. I am running my IA-4 with PMC twenty5 22i speakers, made in the UK as well. Amazing pairing.
I always wanted to hear a class A sugden
If you do, you’ll want one immediately.
I wasn't with you on this until you showed the blue version. Wow...now that's classy! Isn't it strange how design and colour can influence our hi-fi purchases? Now, there's a topic for you in the future.
You don't get a lot of headroom before saturating the inputs, thats the only real (little) niggle. Those extra hot DACs and streamer outputs can be a bit of a nuisance
I have my SUGDEN A21SE SIGNATURE Graphite . Everything said in this video about this British 🇬🇧gem 💎 of an amplifier is true. You simply want to have it even if you already have a magnificent amplifier 10 times more expensive.
A21se is brilliant with the Devore O/93
what in the Rega line up would be competitive?
The Rega Aethos is a direct rival. We hope to review one soon.
Harley Lovegrove is a big Sugden fan, but feels the build quality is a little wanting. I was surprised, because they look solid in images and on video. ( and I realise that's a kind of stupid thing to say).
What is the opinion of the Riff. I know they are heavy, but that doesn't always equal well put together.
The A21SE and the DAC-4 are British Brutalism at its finest, very good build and fun to listen to. Nothing flimsy on them. I can not speak to the power knobs on the bigger amps.
@@melchior-chr.v.brincken8006British Brutalism. I like that. Evocative. I have an old DK design amp I can't bear to get rid of, despite the fact it weighs about 90lbs and looks a bit like a mini fridge. An incidence of American Brutalism, I guess, but it doesn't roll off the tongue in the same way.
REM were a great band.OK,I might sound old,but you don't get bands of that quality in the modern age,especially on radio 1 as would have once been the case. I like the red colour of that amp. I'm sure it has some of the Sugden rich and fluid quality about it sonically too.
Try Billie Eilish "Bad Guy"
A HiFi guy goes for a test drive in a Rolls Royce, along with the manager and puts some chill-out tunes on the player. The guy starts fiddling around with things and opens the glove box. He finds some short spilkey things with little cups on top. He asks the manager about them and the manager replies that he should use them to rest his balls on while he's driving, The HiFi guy says, OH YEAH, that's much better.
Lovely review style.
Thank you kindly!
Mike
So, is "Document" a great recording as you state at 14.10 or a grey, dirty mess as you state at 15.32?
As I said, it can sound a 'grey mess' with a bad amp. With the Sugden its greatness shone through!
@@MrVinylistaGood recovery, there.
@@jimfarrell4635 Always happy to remind folk of what I actually said. 🙂
Brilliant synth bass with Billie Eilish "Bad Guy". Controlled, but room filling and fun.
David's response to that remote is like mine. Just walk across the room and turn the effing knob.
😂
That remote looks different than the one that shipped with my unit🤔
why not balanced?
High power like musical fidelity have the grunt but at the same time they lose the fitness of the low power amplifiers, parallel output transistors of the high power amps can't be matched to be exactly absolutely and they take a toll on the sound.
That's why class A single ended amplifiers sound so good in expense of low end tightness lightness and grunt (sometimes).
In The end it's a matter of choice, low end tightness and grunt ,or finesse.
👍
Great amplifier and you don't need a heater during the winter 😂.
You guys said the M8xi is not much heavier than this amp? The M8xi is over 100lbs this Sugden is under 30lbs.
c'est simple sugden a une histoire , et il savent comment avoir un son qui leur plaise , ils savent régler les contre reactions locales et globale , utiliser des montages et des composants qui sonnent bien , faire de tres bonnes alimentations
As good as Document is, to describe it as superior to Out Of Time, Automatic For The People and especially Green is nothing short of astonishing.
I think the point we were making was that all of REM's first five albums are so absolutely brilliant, that nothing could come close afterwards.
Mike
@@Hi-FiRiff sit down with the Sugden and play the Green album, I'm sure you'll charge your mind!😃
IA4 is the best integtated amp up to 10k.
I agree. I have one.
Evening gents👍👍
Evening jkbb
“Green” is still good IMHO.. Downhill after that..
For me, the 3 albums prior were so good, Green felt like a let down.
Mike
Do you think it would drive my Maggie LRS+?
No. 90dB + sensitivity =yes
Will be plenty of power ... forget the "watts / channel" rating and give it a listen ... but will be different sounding than other amplifiers feeding / driving them
I lived with an A21SE for several months. Having tried hard to like it, I could not and here's why. It has too high an input sensitivity and as a result audibly clips very easily, sounding hard and edgy as a result. It was only listenable by nudging the output of my DAC down to 1V., and I'm aware that some A21Se owners can only use them with inline attenuators at the inputs. One argument might be that this was a speaker compatibility issue, but my ProAc DB1s are supposed to get on well with Sugdens and I also used KEF LS50s, which were even worse. Try before you buy.
Maybe you can help me decide on a better integrated amp to pair with the Proac Db1 since i own the same model and has been combing owners experience with the Proacs. TIA
Shrunk in the wash = Ruined = reduced to a state of decay, collapse, or disintegration, having been irreparably damaged or harmed. Jesus, poor Sugden A21se...
The facia is still red hot!🤣
KH 500 and lived to tell the tale .
Richard Allen tweeters were one of the prefered upgrades to Videoton Minimax.
Such an obvious age gap on show here..two old farts ''half a point''.... young whipper snapper....'' point 5''
Enough of your cheek, you young rapscallion!
@@MrVinylista I will be 67 on october so I can't be that much younger than you surely?🙂
@@owenoneill5955 😎
@@MrVinylista 😀😀😀😀
@@MrVinylista I knew that one would hit home 😀😀😀😀
Hello folks
Evening!
Hi chaps 11 days is too long!
Sorry, my fault. Mike
Looks downright agricultural. Take it as a compliment.
British Brutalism at its finest.
Now don't take this the wrong way, but when I saw the three of you on the sofa the first thing that came to mind was two creepy schoolteachers grooming a student...
Actually, there isn't really a right way to take that. So I'll just apologise.
I stopped being a student a few years ago now.
Mike
Well played, Mike
Great amp but runs too hot.
No balanced inputs, no go.
Step up to the IA-4, that will be your end game amp. I have one for my second system.
Class A amplifiers should have been be extinct by now.
David Price needs a haircut !!
No comment.
Mike
No one has time for all this chummy indulgence crap. Get on with it.
Chummy indulgence crap is one of our nicer comments 😂.
Apologies, but we only do crap I'm afraid.
Mike
2x, 1.75x are your friends. Chummy indulgence is precisely why people watch these guys!
@@Hi-FiRiff For what it's worth I find the "crap" rather entertaining. 🙂
Is that you, Mother?
@@MrVinylista 🙂
Garbage warm dead dull lifeless sound.
No thats the hegel amps, lol
marketing， marketing and marketing
Welcome to capitalism. Without clever marketing nothing sells.
Well, I don’t think a small company like Sugden spends a lot of money in marketing (at least compared to the big names Denon, KEF, Wiim and the like).
@@phfen No their product sells by reputation and word of mouth.