I normally climb on the double bowline. Recently after not climbing for a year I went climbing again. I couldn't remember which way the end goes around the tree; so figure eight follow through it was that day. Incidentally, my double bowline is a mirror image of yours.
Thanks for your question. I personally use the 8 when climbing. The advantages the bowline has that tempt me are it never jams when loaded (easy to un-tie) and it's faster to tie compared to the figure 8 follow through. Hope that helps.
I'm not a climber but I'm pretty good with knots. This whole "straight up through the eye" business is interesting. I understand what you said about the yosemite finish, but are you sure that going up through the eye directly like that produces a stable knot? Is this a "standard" way of tying the double bowline for climbing?
@@climberdad I don't have experience with it so I'll take your word for it. My concern was that by pushing the working end up, it might interfere with the nipping action of the loop, because the two strands in the nipping loop won't be pressed together well. Maybe this doesn't matter because there are two nipping loops, I'm just not sure so I asked :)
I enjoy knot tying too but only know the ones I need/use and don't really go beyond that or get much into the how of it. Thanks for your comments and if you explore the workings of this version of the knot more please let me know.
@@climberdad I looked into it, it seems like a number of climbers follow your approach - I was probably wrong to question it. But I came across this interesting variation that I hadn't seen either, a bowline on a bight tied as a "retraced" bowline, check it out ruclips.net/video/1uo_Ohq_gVg/видео.html
Do the bowline on the bight. The version, where you tie a regular bowline, then make a second loop through the harness, and follow back just like with figure-8. No stopper knot required. This variant of the bowline and the figure-8 are the only 2 knots approved by european alpine guidelines. Any fancy finishes (yosemite etc), or other variants like bouble bowline etc. Are not listed as safe knots due to the requirement of proper dressing and/or stopper knots. All of which could open by themselves under circumstances. I know, in the US, the bowline with yosemite is really popular, but therd have been too many accidents with this knot. Stay safe, use one of the approved knots.
Thanks, informative video. I'm not a climber but a sailor and I usually finish my bowline with two half hitches for security using the working end around the standing end. Is there some reasons climbers don't use that relatively simple finish?
Thanks Mark. The stopper knot is fairly similar to a half hitch, just has an extra rap. 2 half hitches would take up a little more space which isn't a big deal unless you are wearing the knot like in Rock climbing.
I've had half hitches fall apart. I always use an n-overhand where n is large enough to use up the tail. (The traditional stopper knot is a 2-overhand.)
They don’t use it because this is not the best tie-in knot for climbing. Harder to inspect, easier to make a mistake and have potentially life-ending consequences. Standard knot is the rethreaded figure eight.
This was my go to knot for a long time, but it always bugged me that without the stopper it's fairly insecure. I now use the Scott's locked bowline, which is more secure, no slower to tie etc. I still use a stopper If I were to advice other people to climb with a bowline I would suggest the bowline on a bite as it is very secure and easy to check
The thing about the Yosemite finish is that when tied improperly it will undo the Bowlin. That's the issue with learning from a single source, humans make mistakes too and luckily it didn't cost you your life.
I have seen attempts to do a double bowline with a Yosemite tie off. But they were all tied incorrectly. 3 side by side turns on 1 side, plus the 2 vertical lines for the Yosemite and the 1 horizontal wrap. So far I haven't had any issues with it. And yes, always use a backup knot. Barrel / double fisherman are good in many cases.
Is there any evidence at all for not tying into the belay loop? The loop is designed to take a full fall and even if you don't tie into yours you're relying on your belayer's.
Todd Skinner... A rope sliding around on a belay loop will cause more wear than a carabinner. If you're just the occasional climber it probably wouldn't matter but better safe than sorry.
@@anthonycheffings9462 It depends, you should just check the instructions for your harness. Some manufacturers specifically depict tying into the belay loop. It is 100% safe to do so and even the preferred method in some cases.
You tie into the other two loops for redundancy. If one of them breaks, you have another one to catch you. Additionally, if you’re climbing on the two loops, and belaying on your belay loop, your harness will wear much more slowly, and seeing as many climbers are broke af, this is valuable.
Thats really interesting for me. This is the 2nd american video I see already that calls this a double bowlin, and ties in like that. I have never seen this method/knot here in europe or more precisely germany. Here in GE if we refer to and tie in with a doube bowlin (doppelter bulin) we always mean a double stranded loop. Just google "Doppelter bulin" to see what I mean. Easier than me explaining I guess. Im curious if the guys in the video mixed sth up or if it is just another thing we do differently on our sides of the pond :) (just thinking of u americans calling our beloved Sackstich the european death knot :D )
It was a Double bowline, the knot you are referring to is a Double bowline In a Bight which gives you 2 loops, A similar knot is the Bowline On a Bight also 2 loops but slightly different again, just terminology but often confused. Double Bowline in a Bight can also become a Triple Bowline by extending tail to match the existing 2 loops, cheers mate. Ps I'm from UK
@@cmcc4662 thx for the explanation...but wow, too many bowlines😅 Just goes to show one cant just simply translate a term and expect the same result sometimes. Cheers🤘
Same confusion in Dutch, we call the Bowline On a Bight a "dubbele paalsteek" (which translates to double bowline). When I think of it, might be for historic reasons. I think most dutch knot names (as well as sayings :)) come from the maritime context, while maybe those knots that are popular in climbing come partly from mountaineering? (good luck finding any mountains here ;))
There is no advantage to a double bowline over a single bowline. They both need a decent stopper knot. A double bowline is itself more confusing for the beginner.
Thanks for your reply. That's interesting, never heard that argument before. Just looking at it mechanically I would think the double would be a bit better. I think it's a easier to inspect too, just my opinion.
I can say this as a 28+ year climber. And a Rigger. I don’t give a shit what knot you are using. If you don’t dress your knot, you’re a fool. We dress everything when rigging. and check It again. Ive seen a single and double bowline handle more weight than any climber is going to be. But due to rules of rigging we always have backup knots. The bowline is basically in rigging, the standard knot. And as a climber I would trust a nicely dressed Double bowline any day of the week with out a back up knot. But As a rigger lol. you best believe i’m tying a back up
I normally climb on the double bowline. Recently after not climbing for a year I went climbing again. I couldn't remember which way the end goes around the tree; so figure eight follow through it was that day. Incidentally, my double bowline is a mirror image of yours.
Question: what uses does the bowline have? Why not just use a figure of 8?
Thanks for your question.
I personally use the 8 when climbing. The advantages the bowline has that tempt me are it never jams when loaded (easy to un-tie) and it's faster to tie compared to the figure 8 follow through. Hope that helps.
Try Bowline on a Bight. Easy to untie like other bowlines, but about as secure as figure eight.
I'm not a climber but I'm pretty good with knots. This whole "straight up through the eye" business is interesting. I understand what you said about the yosemite finish, but are you sure that going up through the eye directly like that produces a stable knot? Is this a "standard" way of tying the double bowline for climbing?
I've never had an issue with it. Please share your concerns.
@@climberdad I don't have experience with it so I'll take your word for it. My concern was that by pushing the working end up, it might interfere with the nipping action of the loop, because the two strands in the nipping loop won't be pressed together well. Maybe this doesn't matter because there are two nipping loops, I'm just not sure so I asked :)
I enjoy knot tying too but only know the ones I need/use and don't really go beyond that or get much into the how of it.
Thanks for your comments and if you explore the workings of this version of the knot more please let me know.
@@climberdad I looked into it, it seems like a number of climbers follow your approach - I was probably wrong to question it. But I came across this interesting variation that I hadn't seen either, a bowline on a bight tied as a "retraced" bowline, check it out ruclips.net/video/1uo_Ohq_gVg/видео.html
Looks like a good one also.
Do the bowline on the bight.
The version, where you tie a regular bowline, then make a second loop through the harness, and follow back just like with figure-8.
No stopper knot required.
This variant of the bowline and the figure-8 are the only 2 knots approved by european alpine guidelines.
Any fancy finishes (yosemite etc), or other variants like bouble bowline etc. Are not listed as safe knots due to the requirement of proper dressing and/or stopper knots. All of which could open by themselves under circumstances.
I know, in the US, the bowline with yosemite is really popular, but therd have been too many accidents with this knot.
Stay safe, use one of the approved knots.
Thanks for your comment
Thanks, informative video. I'm not a climber but a sailor and I usually finish my bowline with two half hitches for security using the working end around the standing end. Is there some reasons climbers don't use that relatively simple finish?
Thanks Mark. The stopper knot is fairly similar to a half hitch, just has an extra rap. 2 half hitches would take up a little more space which isn't a big deal unless you are wearing the knot like in Rock climbing.
I've had half hitches fall apart. I always use an n-overhand where n is large enough to use up the tail. (The traditional stopper knot is a 2-overhand.)
They don’t use it because this is not the best tie-in knot for climbing. Harder to inspect, easier to make a mistake and have potentially life-ending consequences. Standard knot is the rethreaded figure eight.
This was my go to knot for a long time, but it always bugged me that without the stopper it's fairly insecure.
I now use the Scott's locked bowline, which is more secure, no slower to tie etc. I still use a stopper
If I were to advice other people to climb with a bowline I would suggest the bowline on a bite as it is very secure and easy to check
That's a pretty cool knot. Thanks for sharing.
The thing about the Yosemite finish is that when tied improperly it will undo the Bowlin. That's the issue with learning from a single source, humans make mistakes too and luckily it didn't cost you your life.
I do the Scott’s locked bowline.
Thanks for sharing. Why do you like that particular one?
I have seen attempts to do a double bowline with a Yosemite tie off.
But they were all tied incorrectly.
3 side by side turns on 1 side, plus the 2 vertical lines for the Yosemite and the 1 horizontal wrap.
So far I haven't had any issues with it.
And yes, always use a backup knot.
Barrel / double fisherman are good in many cases.
Is there any evidence at all for not tying into the belay loop? The loop is designed to take a full fall and even if you don't tie into yours you're relying on your belayer's.
Todd Skinner...
A rope sliding around on a belay loop will cause more wear than a carabinner. If you're just the occasional climber it probably wouldn't matter but better safe than sorry.
It is not recommended by harness manufactures
@@anthonycheffings9462 It depends, you should just check the instructions for your harness. Some manufacturers specifically depict tying into the belay loop. It is 100% safe to do so and even the preferred method in some cases.
You tie into the other two loops for redundancy. If one of them breaks, you have another one to catch you. Additionally, if you’re climbing on the two loops, and belaying on your belay loop, your harness will wear much more slowly, and seeing as many climbers are broke af, this is valuable.
Edwards bowline is best.
I've been using it way more than I used to. Always with a backup knot.
Minuto 5:25. Ese movimiento es incorrecto. El chicote debe ser cruzado para quedar como en la variante Yoshemite antes de hacer el nudo de remate.
Is it "double" knot indeed? harness is circled only once
Yes. The double refers to the extra rap in the knot itself, not the loop coming from the knot
Hope that helps :)
If the rope is through the harness twice, you're likely looking at a bowline on a bight.
Thats really interesting for me. This is the 2nd american video I see already that calls this a double bowlin, and ties in like that. I have never seen this method/knot here in europe or more precisely germany. Here in GE if we refer to and tie in with a doube bowlin (doppelter bulin) we always mean a double stranded loop. Just google "Doppelter bulin" to see what I mean. Easier than me explaining I guess.
Im curious if the guys in the video mixed sth up or if it is just another thing we do differently on our sides of the pond :) (just thinking of u americans calling our beloved Sackstich the european death knot :D )
It was a Double bowline, the knot you are referring to is a Double bowline In a Bight which gives you 2 loops, A similar knot is the Bowline On a Bight also 2 loops but slightly different again, just terminology but often confused. Double Bowline in a Bight can also become a Triple Bowline by extending tail to match the existing 2 loops, cheers mate. Ps I'm from UK
@@cmcc4662 thx for the explanation...but wow, too many bowlines😅
Just goes to show one cant just simply translate a term and expect the same result sometimes.
Cheers🤘
Same confusion in Dutch, we call the Bowline On a Bight a "dubbele paalsteek" (which translates to double bowline). When I think of it, might be for historic reasons. I think most dutch knot names (as well as sayings :)) come from the maritime context, while maybe those knots that are popular in climbing come partly from mountaineering? (good luck finding any mountains here ;))
There is no advantage to a double bowline over a single bowline. They both need a decent stopper knot.
A double bowline is itself more confusing for the beginner.
Thanks for your reply.
That's interesting, never heard that argument before. Just looking at it mechanically I would think the double would be a bit better. I think it's a easier to inspect too, just my opinion.
I can say this as a 28+ year climber. And a Rigger. I don’t give a shit what knot you are using. If you don’t dress your knot, you’re a fool. We dress everything when rigging. and check It again. Ive seen a single and double bowline handle more weight than any climber is going to be. But due to rules of rigging we always have backup knots. The bowline is basically in rigging, the standard knot. And as a climber I would trust a nicely dressed Double bowline any day of the week with out a back up knot. But As a rigger lol. you best believe i’m tying a back up
Thank you for your comment 👍
Wrong.
Thank you for your comment. Why do you say it's wrong?