The Blue Wizards and the East | Tolkien Explained
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- Опубликовано: 11 дек 2020
- The Blue Wizards are two of the most mysterious characters in Tolkien's Middle-earth. The two versions of their story - the later coming in the final years of Tolkien's life - are very different. Here, we will look at both, as well as some of the events going on in the East during the time they lived in that area of Middle-earth. From Saruman also traveling to the East to Sauron hiding there multiple times and the Blue Wizards working against Sauron among the Easterlings.
What do you think happened to the Blue Wizards?
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Gandalf - Fran Fdez
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Ithryn Luin - Xteveabanto
Blue Wizard Pallando - Jack Dullahan
Slayer of Darkness - Jef Murray
Khamul - RoterOtto
Farewell to Fangorn - Luca Bonatti
Pallando & Alatar - Neilk
Saruman the White - Matt DeMino
Saruman - AIMaNeGrA
Saruman - Xoanon
The Blue Wizards Journeying East - Ted Nasmith
The Nazgul - Istrandar
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#bluewizards #tolkien #lordoftherings 
Развлечения
What do you think about the Blue Wizards? Think they’ll show up in the Amazon series?
I hope so
I agree whole heartedly with carlos barrados, you must be a blue wizard. I noticed it but as one wizard/ boddhisattva to another, i believe you are of that caliber of a soul. Lol, definitely soulcaliber to star as a blue wizard, especially the slayer of darkness. Ill cast the spell it come true, though i feel the directing crew is beneath your caliber. None has done a better blue video ive seen, not even close. You have a heart to help innocent people, thats why you'll prosper. Video was the best inspiration i needed as i nurse a torn pectoral muscle, concentration is what a wizard needs most and you are a true friend for bringing to matter what matters most. The ability to improve life
I feel like they will at least that’s what I hope
Ok, after watching this 5 times because there is nothing better! You are more like radhaghast the brown. I'm sure gandalf likes his independence, but because he are a helpful peer, i extol you as radhaghast, a true peer, who helps rid the world of idiocy
I think he's a very great wizard, prefers the company of nerds to those of men lmao
I really like the second version of the Blue Wizards. Because not only does it make them better people who succeeded in their mission, but it also makes the easternlings or Middle Earth more human as well, having not all of them fall to evil.
Yes I do love the second version for basically the same reasons.
After all even the orcs arent irredeemable.
I think this is a major issue of lotr (the humanization or dehumanization of the Easterlings) so absolutely the second story resonates
@@jacobpike5661 I really agree, especially when watching the movie and seeing how the easterlings are portrayed. And just the framing in general of west=good east=bad, more than a bit cringe sometimes.
I guess they represent the official "mandate from heaven". So there must be an anti-Sauron Empire somewhere in the East !
I know what happened to the Blue Wizards!: One made a sword for a scrawny kid called Arthur, and the other one bought a castle and started teaching high school.
CANON
@@benvoliothefirst haha! Thank you!
I mean tolkien did consider his middle earth series an imagined prehistory and were in the 5th ot 6th era
Really tho one being merlin and the other being a hogwarts founder does make sense
Harry potter universe are the descendants of merlin though.
I like how Tolkien talks about his works as if he was a part of them. I'm not sure what happened to the blue wizards, I heard from a guy who heard from a guy etc etc.
An effect of how hard he committed to the bit of his works being translations of aeons-old historical accounts.
F. I. R. E. That’s because they are aeons old historical accounts. Tolkien was a historian from another dimension.
He started the world in his head when he was a child and continued to grow it as an adult. It was his paracosm he probably felt as if the world was real in a large way and it's also probably why parts of it changed as he aged the hobbit was up beat and the lord of the rings wasn't it showed war. He wrote the hobbit while he was in touch with that kind of happiness and the later trilogy when he felt the happiness darken the world changed as he changed and grew with him it wasn't just a story or daydream it was a home for him and a place to express himself
@@f.i.r.e.5119 - how did you come by this name F.I.R.E.? I was given it by birthright. :)
@@KNYHT.FIRE-1
I wanted an acronym for my social media presence, and I came up with Freakin' Incredible Ruling Entity.
I think you're one of the blue wizards that is still helping us to know more about middle earth.
I entirely agree. he's far greater a journalist than any of the many lotr buffs. Never had i heard a well researched story on the blues
@@Infinitebrandon Please, check out Men of the West channel, if you haven't.
@@Siska0Robert of course i thank yosten or whatever is his name, but nothing as comprhensive as this, obviously
That's the most beautiful compliment you could give him, in my opinion
@@Infinitebrandon I would recommend “In deep Geek” as well for high quality in depth lothr videos, cheers :)
I like the idea that that did work against Sauron, but also got a little distracted with their own interests. Also, since they're the only two wizards to share a colour, I think of them as being close friends and working together, which would have helped them both not to fall to evil.
I thought they were brothers before I read more about how the wizards work lol. They were also my favorite as a kid because my favorite color was blue and I liked how they were mysterious
or one of them turns evil, because of jealousy.
then there's saruman trying to go for every colour
or maybe because they were so deep into enemy territory that they had no choice but to set up cults of magic in order to counter Sauron's influence
They were a couple 🤷🏻♂️
I think a whole new movie series could be produced about the blue wizards in the east without it interfering much at all with the events in LOTR.
And also War of Ring in northern theater
hopefully LOTRO will eventually expand their maps to the east. I guess we will have more info about their journeys, like we had with Radagast.
Amazing idea!
It really could and, if done well, would be awesome.
It would be great, but I don't think they are much interesting to a "global market". To sell a show they have to use more known names and location. Or it has to have a really good storytelling and characters, and I just don't see anyone doing that nowadays
Out of all the Tolkien lore and characters, the blue wizards are the ones I wish we had more stories about.
Same
You said Gandalf was the only wizard who remained faithful to his task and the sole Istari to return to Valinor. Gandalf actually returned twice, the first time was when he died and the second by ship. Maybe the Blue wizards also died performing their tasks and returned to Valinor the same way Gandalf did the first time but remained there because they weren't needed anymore.
That's what I was thinking. Maybe got smpte by thekamul and witchking.
@@Reiman33 Maiar don't need to be corporeal in the first place.
Yeah and Radegast is just a crackhead now
@@MagnusThiHan while true it's implied from my reading that the halls of mandos is closer to purgatory rather than somewhere a maiar would want to be
A problem with that theory: Saruman was slain too, yet it seems really doubtful he returned to halls. I think his fate was in a way like ghost, dead but unable to pass forth due to unfinished business. And that would be an option too. Yet Saruman's talk with Gandalf hints their rods are retrievable, which hints they are alive. In a way it might have been one of Saruman's functions after his fall to Sauron - to keep watch on these too, and to nullify their efforts. They probably were members of White Counil too as other wizards were, thus they probably participated in sack of Dol Guldur. And as they did not know pf Saruman's treachery and considered him still to be on their side, they were effectively nullified by Sauron, who preferred not to deal with dangerous threats like Shelob, but to find use to them.
You know you're a very beloved author when you can openly admit "lol I have no clue what happened. Never thought about that, guess I missed that while writing." and people still respect you or even more.
Some facts of events are unfortunately lost to the ages. Though evidence of actions may persist, the truth is left in the hands of speculation.
I love how Tolkien spoke as if he was channeling this other world, rather than wholly create it. It's a good practice for fantasy writing, I think.
Very. Approach it always talking like a historian.
ALSO it was likely a paracosm and as soemone with their own paracosm I can say thats just the way I think and it could be that was just the way he thought
That's exactly what I was trying to articulate when I was just explaining him!
Philosophically speaking there's no way to say for sure whether he created Arda, or channelled it. I like to think it's the latter.
@@daleputnam8300 Terrence McKenna did have a theory that creativity is a force that channels something that could exist somewhere.
I generally wished that the eastern and southern parts of Middleearth would have received more attention by Tolkien. But maybe it's good as it is because it pokes your imagination and fantasy.
I agree... I like that he created this world, but as its 'historian' he didn't know everything.... only the stuff in his specialty area. So we, the fervent readers, have some leeway in imagining the rest of that world. I'm not sure JRRT meant it that way, but that's the way it seems to work.
Read Rob Rastorp's "Saruman and the Blue Wizards" for more pokes of the imagination.
Tolkien is one of those people who shouldn't have died, because there's so much more they could have done.
I think it's good that he didn't, for that "maybe" reason.
The idea of the Blue Wizards being successful in their mission to spread disunity among Sauron's followers seems like a more meaningful way to go to me.
This way not only do they stay loyal to their initial cause, but, what's more important - they actually have important influence on the world they're a part of. It makes the world feel bigger and more alive knowing that there are forces at play that directly influence what is going on even if we never actually see them. It also makes Easterlings more human, the idea that there are at least groups of them that would not follow a "dark" lord and choose to oppose him, forge their own destiny without a cruel master whipping them into obedience. That would also makes the fate of these people even more tragic, since the very beginning of time, they were left unprotected from the threat of Morgoth, not only did they have to deal with the world they came to inhabit all by themselves, while Elves had Valar taking care of them, they also had to suffer dominion of the cruel demi-god and even after thousands of years of bleak and grim fate there were still at least pockets of them who'd still hold their head high and refuse to submit to the will of a being the power of whom they most likely couldn't even comprehend.
I appreciate this
I agree. It also, to me, proves that Tolkien's Easterlings are hardly racist given the 2nd version of the blue wizards.
I like a combination of both.
Always appreciated the idea that Gandalf was the only Istari to remain faithful to the mission. So i like to think the later version contributes to the work of the blue wizards - extremely important work - and makes the whole LoTR history more deep, but that it doesn't affect the end: Gandalf was the only one to remain faithful to the mission.
So, the blue dudes helped diminishing the forces of Sauron, impacted in the War of the Ring, brought hope and meaning to the people of the east, but still before the war could end, they fell to the might of the Shadow or started focusing on their on affairs as the easterlings started to praise and love them.
I like the end of them being less "clean" because the theme of Middle Earth was, in parts, of the light of the world diminishing and the magic and fantasy going away, and becoming our world. So the earlier version of them starting their own cults of magic etc matches really well with the new kind of world that man would led - especially if we take the Fourth Era happenings, with Aragorn having to travel to the east and south to finish the work against the shadow and bringing peace. Also, if we take The New Shadow as, at least, semi-canonical, would be a great connection to the fall of the Blues!
At least in my mind it works really well the two versions combined
This also gives me the vibe that in a disconnected and ancient world like middle earth, there are unkown stories and legends happening in distant lands that only a few has traveled to and even fewer to have the privilege of hearing and spreading it, and yet those stories and legends are still part of the same world we know and had vital influences on the flow of events that we're already familiar with. This is also exactly how an ancient world should feel like. Just as the people of the west will almost never get the chance to know the tales of the east, the people of the east will also hardly be able to know the world-saving heroisms done by the men of the west, and yet both sides made influences on each other in ways unknown to either side. This not only gives more room for imagination but also more clouds of mysteries to the world that has already fascinated its readers in so many ways.
Hoofie, may I ask you the meaning and the origin of your appellation, above, please?
The Kingdoms in the East might have had a struggle as epic as Gondor and Arnor.
Who else thinks nerdo of the rings is the slayer of darkness?! This is the best blue wizard video ive ever seen by far
Loved, loved,, loved this video!
Here's my take on the whereabouts of the Blue Wizards...
The Blue Wizards were successful in their first task (1600 S.A.,) to "stir up rebellion and cause dissention and disarray in the dark East," because together, Sauron couldn't defeat them. Sauron hated and feared their combined strength and would one day exact his revenge.
When all 5 wizards returned in the year 1000 T.A., the 2 blue wizards once again traveled to the East,, but this time were accompanied by Saruman. The Blue Wizards may have been "betrayed by Saruman" and were told by the leader of their order to SPLIT UP, One blue wizard went East and one blue wizard went south. Once they were divided, Sauron was able to defeat and corrupt the two wizards and are now under Saurons grip and spell, just as he successfully corrupted Saruman.
It is my opinion that together, 2 very powerful, corrupted dark blue wizards, will be able to necromance and summon the return of either Sauron, Melkor or BOTH!
This should be the catalyst for "Dagor Dagorath!!!"
I have seen a particularly fun fan reconciliation of the two fates of the Blue Wizards, with the suggestion that one of the two fell to Darkness, whilst the other remained loyal, and that the two killed each other in the East. A tragic end for two who were imagined often as twins.
One possible reading might be that the second version of the story is the more accurate, while the first version is a reading made by some scholar inhabitants of middle-earth. They knew the blue wizards came to middle earth, and assumed they came along with the others. When the blue wizards brought "help to the few tribes of men that had rebelled from melkor-worship", these western scholars with their biased view of the easterlings, assumed the blue wizards were evil or malicious and interpreted this as them creating "secret cults".
Damn, I like that. That actually really fits and makes sense
plus it makes more sense when you consider the East as being Sauron's territory for thousands of years. Those wizards would need to form secret cults to avoid Sauron's agents and his evil magic.
makes alot of sense.
I love the dynamic here. Same with the feuding between some elves and dwarves.
This is actually a flawless theory. Well done. I support it!
Just from the names I could see Darkness Slayer being more militant and trying to arm the men of the east against the forces of Sauran while East Helper was trying more to support their well being and lead them away from the evils they had been taught. One was a crusader, and the other a missionary, but both had the same goal of helping the eastern realms, just each in their own ways.
They could have operated in tandem, one trying to raise a force to stem the tide of Easterlings joining Sauron's forces while another frees tribes from Sauron's evil. Though given how deep they are in enemy territory, they'll need some *direct* help from either the Valar or some of the more powerful Maiar. Just as the Noldor and Earendil had the intervention of Ulmo the lord of the seas, the East could have the intervention of Orome the Hunter and/or Varda herself or even Arien the Guardian of the Sun (since Sauron loves to cover his lands with shadow)
I think they both specialized in fighting bad guys (like Saruman specialized in technology, Radagast in nature and Gandalf in... Compassion? Fireworks?), but one of them focused on physical beasts like Orcs, Trolls, possibly Wargs, Dragons?, and/or whatever other beasts are in the Southwest, while the other was more focused on supernatural foes like Wraiths, probably Barrow-wights, and whatever other evil spirit-like entities there might be.
@@MarvinT0606 That’s a dual leadership that reminds me of Tecumseh and Tenskwatawa. Though only Tecumseh would receive any respectful acknowledgment for his martial accomplishments, it was Tenskwatawa who led the religious revival that blazed through dispirited (pun intended) tribes.
Easily the number 1 Lord of the rings RUclips channel. Easily.
Thank you! That is high praise indeed!
@@NerdoftheRings indeed, and well deserved at that!
In English that is.
Well Men of the West is good too.
I love the idea of Sauron pouring over maps during the Siege of Barad-dûr, trying to think of a way to escape looming defeat. And he looks at the east and sees all the markers representing the countless Easterling forces loyal to him, but knows he can't call them to Mordor or else the Blue Wizards and their followers will sweep in and liberate those lands, and then he'll be even worse off than he is now.
I like to believe that they were the eastern versions of Gandalf, bringing hope and support to those who opposed Sauron. Perhaps they stayed behind after Sauron was defeated to continue to aid them? After all, there must have been great confusion and strife in that region after Sauron's fall.
This is both refreshingly thoughtful and immensely useful.
I’ve been playing Magic: The Gathering for so long I instinctively clenched my fists when I saw the words “blue Wizards”.
I got a nervous twitch
Ooo of which I am one.... Mwhahahhahaha!
@@benjaminroe311ify me too, and now.... counterspell :)
C O U N T E R S P E L L
Altar and Pallando were the mentors of Urza, Ertai, Barrin and Drafna. This last one past his wisdom to Hurkyl. The master wizard Barrin taught everything he knew to Teferi, but he also learned about the ancient ways and became the hero of Dominaria.
I think that the second story is a lot more realistic, since the forces of the east don’t overpower the armies of the west in lotr. Since Gandalf is the only wizard to complete his goal, my theory is that the blue wizards somehow died before the time came to return to valinor
Powerful plp don't die they are just reborn
I think they just decided to stay in Middle-earth like Radagast. This could be the reason why Gandalf is said to be the only Istari who “stayed true to his purpose.” Part of that purpose was to return to Valinor when their mission was fulfilled. But Saruman was killed, and the other three Wizards chose to stay. Gandalf was also very attached emotionally to Middle-earth and the Shire in particular, but I think his humbleness willed him to do as he was bidden and return. Also another major reason why he wanted to return is probably because Frodo was going, too, and he desperately needed Gandalf’s emotional support in his healing process.
It feels like Alatar was of great power while Pallando was of great knowledge, more like the classic image of the brute and the scholar in ancient Greece.
Doesn't fit their primary mission of finding Sauron. Nor their secondary of changing Eastern culture.
@@crhu319 How is that in link with my comment?
I find it very intriguing that Tolkien wrote about these matters as if it was not something he created himself, but instead that it was a separate world that already existed, and he merely tried interpreting. He really was one-of-a-kind. If only he was an elf and could live forever to keep writing about this phenomenal world...
Would certainly spare us from a certain tv show from being made
Hm, I've never heard the second version of the tale, but gotta say I like it a little bit more. Although I always somehow assumed that they played more positive role in the east. Also, I really like their Orient-like portrayals at 0:10!
The last few sentences when you talk about Tolkien and the mystery, even to him, of middle earth are what to me puts him on a par with Shakespear. They both tapped into something that was beyond them, and thereby comes the greatness of their work.
Yes it's almost as if they WERE being guided somehow, by that mysterious something...
"Dreams are my speciality. Through dreams I influence mankind..." Darkness talking to Lily in Legend
Given that Tolkien for real might have inspired himself with the history of Europe, I would say that history of two Blue Wizards seems quite similar to the history of Saint Cyril and Methodius, or 'Apostles to the Slavs' as they are referred to. They did bring knowledge from the West to the East and helped develop alphabets that greatly influenced Eastern Europe's culture.
What a neat idea: Apostles to the East. I can't help thinking that Tolkien himself might have been intrigued by such a question. Now JRR and Christopher are both gone, so we can't ask them. Sigh!
Well, first of all, no, they did not come from the West, they came from the East - Thessaloniki to be exact, then they travelled WEST to spread the new alphabet that they created. Apostles of the Slavs, sure, but at that time (9th c.) we have a lot more cultural influence, riches and knowledge flowing from EAST to West (cue Constantinople and Eastern Roman Empire in general, Arab Khalifate) than the other way around, especially since trade routes from Asia passed through there. Tolkien's world is a beautiful place in its own right, but let's not dive too deep into allegories than shouldn't exist, since real world history is obviously far from a simple dichotomy of the 'enlightened' west and the 'barbaric' east - the east has also done its fair share of 'enlightening'.
@@kalinpetkov2916, кажи им малко на тези псевдоисторици!
In LOTRO Easterling has two magic orders: Brotherhood of the Mind and Brotherhood of the Spirit. Both wearing blue clothes. Also when talking about East of ME always worth to mention two "lost" dwarven tribes Ironfists and Stiffbeards. In LOTRO history of these two tribes are interlink with the Easterling story. And one last thing: Great Plague started east of the Mordor and I presume this event was devastating to people live here, even more then in Eriador.
I love how Lotro treats the blue wizards. the Magic Brotherhoods form a single "Guild" or "Religion" that is called the Blue Caste. This Blue caste is a reference to the caste system from India that was a huge influence on real life eastern culture. Not only this, but we also learn that one of the wizards, who is called "Yirokhsar" in their language, openly defies sauron, but his students, too familiar with their traditions of melkor worship, misunderstand his message as a "trial". We can see conflicts between the Brotherhoods begin to open in game as a result. so much detail that I think is worthy of the Worldbuilding of Tolkien.
@@NOIDEAIWILLJUSTUSEHAILEYIGUESS Yirokisahr?
This is immensely intriguing.
The line saying the ensured that the easterlings did not outnumber the men of the west proves they did have success in causing a rebellion or a war at least
Really hoping the stranger in Rings of Power is a blue wizard.
At first I was scared he would be any of the wizards but now that I know they came to Middle Earth during the second age, it's more plausible. I just hope he isn't Gandalf
Spoiler
It’s Gandalf
It's alatar
Spoilers
At the end of season 1 of the rings of power, the stranger sets out to Ruhn and th east looking into star signs.
This didn't age well
For many years i've avoided this type of speculation because i fear it will lead to despair 🤣 i have always wanted to know more about the wizards and their journey east. Thank you for this. I enjoyed it.
Make a video on Cirdan. I love that he is the witness of the whole middle earth history.
Yes! I have been thinking the about him as well. Too many fans, including diehard enthusiasts, fail to mention Cirdan The Shipwright!
Only elf to have a Beard
@@Caitgreenham Mahtan had a bear too! In HoME it essentially says that when Elf males get really, really old (like Círdan kind of old), they too grow beards, and Mahtan was peculiar in growing a beard already in relative youth.
To me it seems like none of the wizards failed except for saruman. Blue wizards trying to stop dark worshippers and while radagast protected nature, even if it seemed like he was distracted, I don't think he was since one of the valar had him go there and it seems like radagast was protecting nature because no one else was. Gandalf just had the most active role.
What if blue wizards protected women and children specifically? Maybe by keeping healing magic & concealment & defensive lore alive. Kind of matches what Radagast did. Leaving Gandalf & Saruman to play high power games.
I only very recently gained interest in the lore of the Lord of the Rings. A month ago, I didn’t even know there were blue wizards or of their order or the Maia or anything. This was the best video I’ve seen on the Blue Wizards. Very informative and cool.
I’ll tell you this my fellow Nerd, I’m almost positive after watching this that The Stranger in the series is one of the blue wizards
Good observation ! I agree with the idea !
This is what first came to my mind too, while seeing him and the manifestations of his potential powers.
Should I let a little hint I noticed about these powers ? I would not want to risk spoiling anything about the story...
It’s sauraman
It's alatar.. They pushing that character.. Will link him to gandalf somehow when that character comes...
We're almost assuredly getting them in the Amazon series, I hope they aren't just Gandalf in blue. Spending all that time in the East they should be more rugged, more Machiavellian, more cynical. Cycling through losing and regaining their way amidst all the evil as well as cults being set up for them in spite of instead of by them would also help reconcile their two depictions.
Maybe the Amazon show will have them
What interests me is that Tolkien himself considered his world to be unfinished and had hoped that others would come after him and write these stories. These "plot threads" would be a very easy way for someone to do just that; maybe that was his intent. I'd have to say it would be an incredibly talented author to do Tolkien's legacy any justice but I'd be excited for some to try. There are so many untold stories just waiting to be found.
Just found your channel, found my tribe. Thank you so much, 48 years old and have been passionately engaged in Tolkien’s work from an early age and never had an outlet to express the passion I have for the subject. You cover all the details I’ve always wondered about. I look forward to watching your body of work here on RUclips. Thanks again.
A blue wizards tv show about their adventures in the east would be awesome.
Working with great heroes of Harad and Rhun who wish to see their people out of the clutches of the Dark Lord.
I hope sometime the Tolkien Estate relents and permits film treatments of the stories found in the Silmarillion. There is vast content for development of cohesive and exciting narratives, from the earliest creation of Arda through the War of Wrath. Yes, it would have to be fleshed out in far more detail, but if the historical sketches, epic poems, and general mythology is not contradicted, it would be no more objectionable than conversion of Graeco-Roman mythologies and history into novels and feature fims / series. Worst case is we have to wait until the copyrights move to public domain in another 50 years... but that would be long past my life-expectency, alas. Unless I can read and watch them in the Halls of Mandos.
I absolutely love their depiction in the second Image you've used with them having Sikh and Vietnamese headwear and it perfectly fits with the inspiration of "Eastrons and Southrons" peoples from Middle East/Southeast Asian. I know the topic of diversity in LOTR is highly contested and I never knew why, because Tolkien has explicitly made a world really diverse. I would love to see the Haradrim, Rhunic, and Khandish peoples. I play a lot of Third Age Reforged and I always liked the idea that perhaps there would be a rebellious speech mirroring Aragorn Speech at the Black Gate only with the Men of the East, with the Blue Wizards aiding them.
Now you're thinking.
It would be interesting to see a movie about one of the wars that Aragorn and Eomer faught later against the men of the East and bring in the Blue Wizards in that kind of movie set mostly to the East of Gondor etc. Would be great fun.
Darkness slayer.... just imagine a warrior wizard... how badass you has to be for being called that way
I really feel like I'm alive and in Tolkien's world just watching these videos. The art pictures the map the music everything fits so fluidly. Amazing work dude keep it up ☺️👌🏻😋
Love your channel. My favorite are the “travels” videos because reading the books/movie, it’s easy to forget where certain characters are at certain moments.
By the way, speaking of Saruman's reference to the Blue Wizards, he mentions "The crowns of the Seven Kings" Which kings are these? If he means the Kings of Men, there were nine, not seven. Did he mean the Dwarf Lords? Do some of the Nine Kings not count, as I'm fairly sure Khamùl wasn't a king? WHO DID HE MEAN?
Just because Sauron gave nine rings to kings of men at some point in the Second Age, doesn't mean there was still nine kings of men at the end of the Third Age. I think it's been pretty established that kingdoms rose and fell pretty regularly in Middle Earth.
Most likely what Saruman meant by "crowns of the seven kings" is that there was a total of seven realms in Middle Earth that were led by Kings at that point in time, at the end of the Third Age.
@@randomuser.6932 Gondor, Rohan, Rhun, the Corsairs in the south, Eriador, Arnor, and perhaps whatever kingdom the ghost army Aragon summoned. That's 7, who else?
@@JeepWranglerIslander The Deadmen of Dunharrow were Numenoreans.
@@JeepWranglerIslander I can think of Gondor, Rohan, Mirkwood, Lorien, Dale and Erebor/Iron Hills being specifically referred to as “kingdoms” with actual monarchs, maybe Saruman counts Lindon or Rivendell as well
Or else he’s just using seven as a high enough number to compound his exaggerated accusations towards Gandalf
@@fulviopontarollo2952 I'd say, realms of men only, as Elves were to sail West soon. As for Dwarves, since the vast majority of Saruman's audience was men (there were two Hobbits, one Elf and one Dwarf) it would be irrelevant to mention Dwarven realms in an attempt to discredit Gandalf. That implies there were at the time seven kingdoms of men on ME. Those would be Gondor, Rohan, Dale, maybe Umbar and three Southern or Eastern realms, since Saruman knows about the East.
I like what the video game Third Age Total War did with the blue wizards, which is closer to the second version you talk about. In the game the Blue Wizards return from the far east with an army of the nomadic peoples they recruited. With this army they try to turn the people’s of Khand to fight against Mordor and the other Easterlings.
My theory is that the two blue wizards were a couple, Orome, the hunter chooses Alatar, probably because he is a great hunter or fighter. ( Probably Tolkien was inspired by the greco-roman mythologies and in the same vein as Alexander the Great with Hephaestion, a warrior that will not go to war without his other male partner, in which case they were also lovers, like David and Jonathan in the bible.) Alatar did not want to go without Pallando, he is the one who insists on Pallando going with him.
In your other video on the Balrog, you mentioned that there were 3 or 7 of them, Sauron could have kept them 1 or 4 remaning in the east until the last fight. But at the fight of the Black Gate they were not there, they should have been there if they were still alive. So I think that the blue wizards might have 'helped' out the last battle by getting rid of the Balrogs and might have done it with the Silmaril that was thrown in the water. To fuse Tolkien's idea that they did not find Sauron and failed but then later in his letters he says that they contributed, my stance is that they did not want to find Sauron, maybe by fear that hey would end up like Saruman eventually, thus failing to their mission, which is why they did not cross over with Gandalf.
Instead they sacrificed themselves in the killing of the last Balrogs, which would have greatly changed the battle of the Black Gate if the Balrogs had been there. Being in the east they knew that they could not find and kill Sauron themselves, and the east was many times the refuge of Sauron. I believe that their love between each other must have played a role in their choice. Similar to the story of Moses who did not get to go into the promised land because of the time that he made water come forth from the rock. Their sacrifice was the only way to get rid of the Balrogs and other daemons Sauron had. Similarly it killed them like Gandalf, but in their case they did not come back because they refused to find Sauron, failing in their mission, but at the same time had a huge role in getting rid of Sauron's biggest assets. (anyway something along those lines, I'd be curious to have your opinion) 🙂
I really really hope Amazon will take the route that the stranger in the rings of power is indeed a blue wizard and not Gandalf.
Excellent point that the fact that there are mysteries and questions that remain unanswered gives Tolkien's creation the feel of reality. It's the same with the multiple versions of stories and the incompleteness of others, making them like real-world texts that have survived serendipitously in fragments while others have not, leading you the the "real events" behind the stories and fragments...that's a powerful evocation of a real world lost in the mists of time, which was exactly Tolkien's inspiration from the study of philology.
It's by Tolkien's brilliant design that he has characters like this to give the story such depth. By giving us so little knowledge of them, and shrouding them in mystery, it creates this perpetual intrigue into the story....
Awesome video 🤘💚
I like the Mjölnir pic
I think the way they are so mysterious would allow for an interesting game or TV series. Again, awesome video!
Loving how deep into detail you are going with these videos. Just discovered your channel a week ago and already one of my top Lotr channel! Thank you.
Glad you found the channel and are enjoying the vids! 😁
Great channel and a brilliant video. Not only am I having my knowledge of the legendarium of Tollers refreshed, but I am also learning things that I didn't know before watching.
I like to imagine them having much the same role as Gandalf. Maybe each of them had a favorite people like Gandalf with the hobbits. I like to think of them giving wise counsel to good kings and queens and gathering knowledge. Maybe they were also pilgrims like Gandalf and moved humbly from place to place doing what good they could. Maybe they started a wonderful character, a woman this time, off on an adventure.
Love the map videos.. blue wizards have always been a awesome mystery to me 💙 hope there featured in some form on screen at some point
Man thank you so much for all your hard work! You have such wonderful content and exposition.
Hello, just found out about you and your amazing channel. I come from watching 4 videos in a row (sauron getting the one ring, gandalf taking it, the istaris' and now this one), I can't get enough of it! Marvellous work, greetings from Barcelona.
Beautiful video, man!
The Blue Wizards succeeded in the Second Age, leaving in the beginning of the Third Age to return to The West. It is decreed by Eru through Manwe and the remaining Valar that the Blue Wizards will make their own choice whether to or not return to Middle Earth with the others intending to be sent. While Alatar originally wanted to, going with Saruman, he then convinced Pallando to join him, continuing their tasks, upon which, he agreed. Because of this it was determined that Radagast would go, serving Yavanna. Lastly, because he knew fear of Sauron went Gandalf. When Khamul began to discover his strength of power from his extensive use of the ring bestowed upon him by Sauron, the Blue Wizards in unison with those they guided to overthrow Khamul which sent him west to Mordor fleeing his kingdom at the hands of Morinethar and Romestamo. While he was not the first corrupted King of the East that had fled from them, Khamul was the most powerful of those whom joined Sauron in Mordor. Later, When Sauron fell, the Blue Wizards whom were in the FAR East had far to travel coming home, the distance of the east being greater than that of the the west may have returned Un-heralded as all had left before. With the "Magic" that existed in Middle Earth failing, any means they may have previously had of expedited travel was gone. They joined their brother Olorin in the West, returning to the Valar as they previously had unlooked for but ever welcomed...
What I like about the two blue Wizards is that they seemingly stayed together through their travels. Whereas each of the other Wizards broke off to focus on their own tasks the blue Wizards (who were friends to begin with) decided that they could do more good staying together as a duo. I'd love to hear stories of them journeying through the East as comrades with a millennia old rapport.
They also ventured to Harad (the South) ~
We always appreciate your hard work and dedication towards these videos. They are brilliant. Love and appreciation from Sri Lankan fan from Sri Lanka 🇱🇰🤝🏴.
I love your videos, i watch pretty much all of the Tolkien community and yours unique. 🌌
They would be perfect villains in "The New Shadow" :D
came after the last episode of Rings of Power. Well I thought the stranger was gandalf, but I think after watching this he is for sure a blue wizard and the best thing is there is not much details about them as you mention in the video, which gives the writers a chance to use their imagination, and I hope they don't ruin this.
This channel is giving me life. Thank you for diving into lore and history
Dude, you run such a brilliant channel. Thank you very much!
Thanks so much!! I really appreciate it. 😊
I’m going with door #2, lol. It’s more hopeful & I like to think not every wizard (except Gandalf) failed in their duty. With this story, only Saruman fell into evil. Radagast simply lost sight of his task, but was never wicked at heart. I’d kind of like to see Rings of Power have an plotline that includes them causing trouble for Sauron out East at some point in the next 4 seasons, lol!
Thanks for showing the reference book covers in the meantime as it's very helpful.
I love the way you interpret the characters. Awesome video. What is the song used in the video, at the end especially? I love it so much. It's so comforting. I wish I could listen to that in a playlist
The greatest story tellers leave room for their stories to grow within the minds that shall soon find and love them and then they too shall plant the ideas of the world and the story for future generations.. It is the greatest wish for the greatest story tellers for their stories to never stop being told.. even if they are off the beaten path from time to time it is a form of Immortal happiness to those that create these stories..
Very interesting! The Blue Wizards have always been so mysterious to me... Thanks for the video! I also love the music you used around 04:40, very atmospheric! Where is it from?
Cheers =) !
I love that they were both interpretations of early and later Tolkien's musings. They go to find Sauron in the East but by then he had corrupted a great many number of the Easterlings and they found little help and great resistance to their influence; except those pockets who rejected Melkor/Saruon worship. There, they had the greatest impact both arming and strengthening their convictions to resist and rebel against evil. This no doubt lead to many civil wars amongst the Easterlings which weaken their total forces as a major threat to the West. I also like the idea that the Blue Wizards did something similar in the South traveling back and forth between the East and South sewing discord among those who bent to Sauron and those who did not. I like the idea in their doing so, they "fail" in their original mission where in helping Middle-Earth resist evil, they concentrate their efforts solely in the East (and possibly South). In doing so, as it was so easy for Sauron to be deified, the Blue Wizards in time also became figures of worship in secret cults that practiced rituals and magics in their name in later ages. This is something that does not escape the Blue Wizards and they spend the rest of their time on Middle-Earth trying to undo this adverse influence; or perhaps they don't, and that is why they "fail" their task and never return to Aman. It's the only way in keeping the faith strong in these regions and keep them from falling to evil.
This is a great contribution. Thank you for the video.
Love how Tolkien writes his letters as though he's a historian finding this stuff rather than making it up
Another cracking video, great work again buddy 👍🏻
Thanks!!
I just got into your videos (I just found them) but I have learned so much and every one I find is more amazing then the last! Thank you for these! Your amazing!
Your videos are absolutely amazing, thank you and keep it up :)
I usually dismiss Tolkien's later changes and writings as just polluted of over-thought. The first account of The Blue Wizards is the most in line with the spirit of the original pen. As far as what happened to them? I think they were slain during The 3rd Age around the time Sauron declared himself in Mordor. At that point in time I imagine them being Councilers to competing Kings and getting swept up in that region's politics. Pretty much forgetting their original purpose or at least holding it off.
That's total head canon and my theory needs more fleshing out, but it's what I imagine happened to them.
I agree with most of the statment.
But in my mind i would have them do good still and would rebel and brew a battle and would be slain in it and.
Or maybe they stayed alive and helped Elessar to seek hiding places of some of the eastrilngs loyal to Sauron.
Also my thought is they did not go to valinor becuse they did not do all part in their mission and maybe forgot it but still maintained to be good becuse they still remember part of it.
@@danilokrdzavac6603 I don't think they turned Evil like Saruman did but they simply lost focus on the main goal and kinda rebelled in a way were they thought they were doing what was best for ALL of Middle Earth instead of just The Western Realms. They had a change of plans after they arrived and did there own thing but ultimately failed because they didn't stick to the original mission of finding and eliminating Sauron only. They tried to get fancy with their own ways of doing things.
well that i say is a really good story for them and a brilliant opinion and i think it is probably the best opinion of them becuse that is something that you can really think of them and say that it could be
Boring.
I wish they would do a series specifically focused on the Blue Wizards. And have them played by Patrick Stewart and Derek Jacobi.
as protegees of Orome, I would hope that younger, more vigorous actors would be chosen, and they would be portrayed as physically active and powerful in accordance with their assigned missions. After all, the physical incarnation of the maiar is flexible, and they need not be shown as old men. I am unsure (perhaps someone more familiar with the existing writing and gender-indicators in Elvish names could say whether they must, in fact, even be male. Having a female Istari would open a lot of narrative possibilities. Further, as they were primarily occupied in the east, it offers the opportunity for them to be protrayed by Asian actors instead of old white men.
@@billc2787 Female seems somewhat plausible, actually, but I'm pretty sure all the Istari are supposed to be old and physically frail (at least in appearance), to keep them on mission: guide and inspire, not rule or conquer. They are too be mentor figures for the free peoples, not warriors. Therefore, old men. But an old woman could surely fulfill that philosophy.
Great lore vid. Thanks!
Many thanks for such amazing and high quality content!
I think Tolkien came up with the later ideas not by changing his mind, but by actually more or less "researching" within the history of middle earth, which has been a rather common perspective of Tolkien regarding his work. He didn't necessarily want to redeem the blue wizards personally, he simply concluded that SOMEONE was obviously getting in Saurons way in the east, otherwise it couldn't be explained how Sauron was unable to overrun middle earth thousands of years ago.
He then concluded that it makes sense that the two wizards were more successful than Tolkien initially wanted to give them credit for.
*Also the South ~*
I prefer the idea that they "failed" in some way, as it makes their stories more interesting and bittersweet to me (and I like the idea of them being founders of cults of magic and/or spiritual traditions). I also like the idea that they were successful in swaying people away from Sauron and aided rebellions against him, yet I do not think such successes are incompatible with the idea that they were still not 100% true to their mission like Gandalf was.
I also like to imagine that their colours are not the same hue of blue. One of them could be indigo and the other could be azure, for example.
During the years when I was heavily invested into Lord of the Rings Online, I played a Lore-Master (Wizard) and modelled him after what I imagined of the Blue Wizards. I've always been fascinated by those characters and the mystery that surrounds them. Great upload!
Always found these two characters very fascinating. Wish we had more on them although that leaves us room to dream I guess.
Saruman almost certainly knew them back in Valinor
I like to think they’re still out there in our modern world (given how Tolkien thought of Middle-Earth as a potential history of our world). Unless something incredibly powerful killed them I doubt they perished. The same thing goes for Radagast.
I love the idea that Middle-Earth is a distant history of our world and that the Blue Wizards and Radagast are still out there somewhere. I bet Tom Bombadil is still doing his thing somewhere hidden away in the English countryside too :)
They died from ancient covid.
Great channel, I'm binge listening at work.👍
Your videos are so interesting thank you! We'd love to see one solely focusing on the history of the Haradrim and the Easterlings one day 😊
Whenever I see anything about the two, It's almost always accompanied by wonderful art. We don't know for sure what became of them, but every time i see fan art of them, it always makes them look badass imo 🤣
With that, I'd like to think that the events of the later writings were the case. Low key ensuring the east wouldn't overwhelm the west...and it's fun to think about what adventures/battles they may have participated in.
Read Rob Rastorp's "Saruman and the Blue Wizards" for further fun.
I think that's the theme for another great movie.
I love these videos so much thank you!
I see that most of the istari held a bit of a connection or shared trait to the valar that chose them, i believe orome, the great huntsman and hunter of evil things, chose alatar first as he believed him to be the most capable in facing the dark and barbaric lands to the east. And learning of he mission he was supposed to perform, alatar invited his friend Pallando, thus sharing his color with him as well as his mission and goal. (Theres a belief that the colors of the wizards were based on the missions or task they were to perform.)
And so, they headed of to the east to face constant danger unlike their 3 wizard allies. Alatar was named darkness slayer for his extreme skill in facing evil men and the darkness in the east, possibly even leading the independent easterling tribes against the forces of the 2nd greatest nazgul, while pallando was named east-helper, for it was he who assisted alatar, while alatar was pre-occupied by greater matters. (kinda like Julius Caesar and his best bud Labienus in Gaul)
I believed in the end they became so overwhelmed by their task to eliminate darkness that they resorted to teaching sorcery and magic to the easterlings to help them fight back, which became the magic cults of the East.
I think that a combination of the two versions would be a very interesting and tragic story. Perhaps they held true to their quest until around the time of LOTR, and got separated. Not being able to support each other and keep each other in check, they got corrupted by Easterlings. Maybe the easterlings worshiped them and they got filled with pride and decided to make their own cults, not working with Sauron, but no longer trying to stop him.
Meteor man?
I think the fate of the Blue Wizards was probably a mix of Tolkien's two versions and loosely was what he meant to convey despite not touching upon it. The Blue Wizards most likely traveled to the east and their combined strength probably saw success in dissuading a lot of people from following Sauron but they most likely used this influence to in turn form their own cults centered around themselves. It probably still crippled Sauron (thus fulfilling their mission) but their zeal against him probably out-won their initial mission and thus they "fell," just didn't follow or serve Sauron like Saruman did.
They are the Rosencratz and Guildensten of Tolkien’s legendarium.