I had a moment of confusion and dissociation like "didn't I watch this years ago? this was like the second or third sajam video I watched. what is going on" then I searched it and felt my bones crumble to dust
Sadly, Japanese developers are often of very traditional mindset (stuff like not looking at what other games do and how they solved some problems years ago, using outdated software and work flow, etc.) often to the detriment of whatever they are making (not only gaming - KyoAni tragedy costed not just priceless lives of many, but also huge part of studio's archives since it was not digital). Hopefully pressure for global audience will discourage developers from releasing games with shitty netcode that only works when you're in the same city...
Exactly the same! I thought "An old video again?" And damn... I am more surprised of myself remembering the first video 3 years ago like it was last month than FCG in the same place regarding this issue.
They're all relevant topics that deserve to be revisited from time to time. Rollback has made strides since, many devs make it a priority to include it and get the appropriate praise when they do by creators making videos on those games. Conversely they get flak if they leave it out
i remember before rollback hit BBCF *everyone* was crying about how our friends wouldn't play the game with us because it didn't have rollback and all that, we *wanted* people to play with us so bad and when rollback finally hit we basically had a party. crazy that it's not just the standard tbh
The bar is on the ground and yet people are so damn eager to pull out their damn shovels. As a PC player I have been wanting not only Rollback but Crossplay for a while but man that feels like asking for something impossible with the current climate. People are whack, just want good games.
Do the devs think that their computer players are fun enough to buy the game alone? Idk why a genre that has literally always had multiplayer games (since arcades) has so many issues providing basic multiplayer features. If overwatch can do crossplay (significantly harder to crossplay FPS games from key/mouse to gamepad) theres no reason that fighters cant do the same. And thats not even touching on how these FPS games are leagues ahead in matchmaking/lobby systems (and they still get complaints about things they do wrong). I really think the no instant rematch feature is the biggest example of all this. As someone that has developed a multiplayer game (although on mobile, but still a real time game) there is no excuse for that not being a core feature.
@@feelingveryattackedrn5750 Instant rematch should be mandatory especially for FGs where you select more than just your character (stuff like palette, control style, assists, assist type, extra moves or movement options). BTW As I've mentioned in another reply, Japanese devs often are too traditional and don't really look at other games to see how they solved problems (often years ago) or what are current trends in the industry and I don't think there are many Japanese-made online FPS games anyway.
@@feelingveryattackedrn5750 I think the thing with a lot of the more popular genres is since there is/was SO much more competition in the field, most of these QOL issues got fixed pretty quick because if your game sucked, someone else came and did it better than you, and either you had to adapt or close your doors. For the FGC, the big companies are the only ones that have been making fighting games for AGES, and even now most indie fighters have a drastically smaller scene (biggest probably being Skullgirls), so they never really had to fix the "little things" because you didn't have many other options if you wanted to play a fighting game, and especially if you wanted to play specifically something like SF/Tekken. With the current climate in the FGC today, all those years of stagnation are coming to a head
"You just want rollback because it's cool to want rollback" No, I live in very rural Canada. In delay-based games I would constantly face laggy matches and have people complain to me that my internet is garbage or to get off wi-fi. I have a fast fibre connection and I use ethernet, but I just happen to live in a place that is far from most people. With Strive, Melee and Type Lumina I've actually been able to play online matches with very few issues. From this point on rollback is simply a feature I want so I can avoid dealing with complainers in delay-based games. If you live in a populated place with lots of players, sure go have fun, but rollback is pretty much a necessity for lots of us.
in South America it's also really bad, in most delay based games just finding matches in the first place is a challenge, let alone good connection ones, and if the game isn't very populated its pretty much a lost cause, if I wanted to play blazblue before rollback came out for example, I had to go to a discord and ask people in the US if they were willing to play some games at like 10 frames at best. What's worse, the fgc in Latin America is split in two because Brazil, the only country with a decently sized playerbase, has garbage internet routing with everyone else, so the potential player pool gets even smaller. Rollback on a game is definitely a huge selling point for me, if a game doesn't have it I'm probably better off just messing around with it in a pirated copy
Dude the amount of crap I have to deal with in strive's lobbies are outrages. Disconnecting from podiums failing to connect to podiums for ages and such. But when the game begins God does it begin. No problem at all. The worst I had today was hitting a zato in the air but rollback got me sent back to being grabbed and that's it
that's absolutely nothing in comparison to how strive is performing in South America, the servers are pretty much dysfunctional, the game takes like 20 minutes just to load up the main menu and another 10 to load the lobbies menu, and that's only if an error doesn't happen somewhere in between that sends you back to the title screen, and even in the rare case that you manage to make it into a lobby or get into a game with somebody, you're very likely to get disconnected within the first 3 minutes. I and a lot of other people pretty much haven't been able to play the game at all for the last month or so, this really needs to get to arcsys's ears
@@Zevox87 We'll know when P4 re-drops. Had the same thing before the DNF Duel Beta. Character trailers and everything looked great, so trying out the beta was a no-brainer. Until they officially confirmed it, though, there was always that small fear of delay-based.
Man I just don't get why people bitch about cars with sticky gearshifts. Like its not that big of a deal, you can adjust to it. We called it "delay based driving" and that was how cars were driven. Back in my day we just had to deal with it and that was that, if you got in an accident and died, well RIP bozo you know? All this talk about making it a "standard to have an efficient and well-lubricated gearshift system" is just total zoomer nonsense.
You never know when someone might put a gun to your head and tell you to either perform a hard, input intensive combo in delay-based online fighter, or die.
Yeah, and with those stupid new gearshifts we get those dumbos who can't obey traffic law teleporting into you with their cars, one minute you're safe the next you're dead.
"Bro, how entitled can you be? You think the movie should have an ending? Real fans don't need or even want closure. Why don't you just make your own movie with a 'complete story arc' if it's so important to you?"
You said it all. I can understand why someone would get upset when a person says there is "literally no reason" to buy a game without rollback. Sometimes you just like the game and that's good enough reason, but getting up in arms and defending bad decisions, laziness, and willful ignorance by a developer is pretty stupid.
This. I am going to buy and play P4U. The original P4A is _the_ reason I am a fighting game player today, but I never had the chance to play it online. The chance to play and learn the game in current year, without having to trackdown a PS3 and my old copy, even with bad netcode is worth it to me. Barely. I wouldn't do this for literally any other game, and I wouldn't recommend anyone else buy this without a guarantee of rollback, but I'm getting really tired of people implying I'm not allowed to decide to buy it without somehow being some kind of traitor or corporate stooge. I like the game, I wanna play it, no rollback sucks and you probably shouldn't buy it without rollback. But I am going to. Stop bugging me about it.
for my 2 cents as a super casual player, netcode doesn't automatically make a game a buy/no buy for me, as I pay attention to everything else the game offers. but if we've already had netcode figured out for this long, and THIS many people are demanding it, it's still pretty inexcusable not to have rollback. like you're just being stubborn at that point lmao
Apparently some games straight up CAN'T have rollback because of how they were developed... But I'm pretty sure P4AU isn't one of them, considering Blazblue could
I honestly think ATLUS is just porting P4AU as a “alright, it’s persona’s 25th; here’s some table scraps” and not even giving half a shit about how much that game means to fans and the FGC.
As an even more casual player, I don't even play multiplayer modes. That's why I still haven't bought Strive, but still play Blazblue for it's abyss modes, and have pre-purchased P4U hearing they will have something rpg-like.
From what I've seen even casual players need rollback if they want to play online and live in areas that aren't densely populated, that also have good internet infrastructure. If you live somewhere rural, or from the sound of it literally anywhere in the continent of South America, rollback is needed for the game to not feel awful online.
dude i really couldn't care less about not having a ping indicator in strive when the lobbies are as dysfunctional as they are going into a strive lobby feels like going into a run down public bathroom where you have to check every stall only to find most of them are unusable
I have mentioned a few times that I wished that Arc’s games just had a quick match queuing system and I can’t tell you how many times people in the FGC have told me that having a quick match queuing system wouldn’t work in a fighting game….I’m like, you know that some fighting games already do this successfully right? I just want to select play and be matched with someone.
holy shit, literally, all i want is fucking quick match, just get me matched up with literally anyone, dbfz does it and it works, tekken does it, it works, melty does it, it fucking works, lobbies are meant for customs and friendlies and theres no reason not to have it
Tbf quick match in +R doesn't work super great. Generally more functional than Strive's lobbies but not perfect. Quick match doesn't automatically make things easier.
I do not understand Arc Sys's obsession with lobbies? Are they just completely unable to code a match making algorithm? You know, so people just playing random strangers could get matched efficiently.
@@happycamperds9917 sorry to tell you but i work in tech and let me tell you it's infinitely easier to do than lobbies, and it doesn't matter because there's no way in hell this far in we shouldn't be having basic features we used to have, it's literally just arrogance at this point
This is amazing not only for custom combo challenges but also for training AGAINST these combos. Doesn't matter if I want to practice against a combo my friend beats me over and over with, since I can't perform that combo myself to record it for dummy. Also, I know of only one game (DB FighterZ) that properly mirrors recorded inputs when I switch sides with dummy (I haven't played Strive though).
@@Shirojyuu Good to know it's not some one-off idea I've seen just once then. I haven't played every FG out there after all and would never check those two titles myself as well.
@@sagittario42 Realistically, for some people, having rollback is required to even play the game. My nearest local is more than 3 and a half hours away, and online delay based games Most of my good matches are no less than 4 frames most of the time higher.
@@sagittario42 depending, netcode can make a game unplayable. Ive dropped games because I can only play online and having matches freeze/lag constantly is too frustrating
@@chancechhet3956 and if thats the case then they need to move on to something with the features they desire. If they want a game they like with certain features they can do a survey or make a peaceful and respect potation to the developers social media.
A game that had a big problem with no colourblind options recently was Dead by Daylight which required the killer to be able to track survivors using red scratch marks that appear on the environment as they run because without them its extremely hard to not lose them the moment they break line of sight so it was pretty much impossible for someone who couldn't differentiate red from other colours to even play one half of the game. Luckily they added colour blind options but it took an unacceptable amount of time, the current theory to why they never even acknowledged it until they added it was that they thought it would be exploited to gain an unfair advantage (lmao what) by players who didn't need it.
The other excuse that's annoying is people think the ability to make good game design excuses other faults. "Glorious Japanese devs make the best fighters. They shouldn't need to waste time making good complete packages. Leave that to shit western developers and their shit fighting games" Come on now.
3:15 Aside from unplayable netcode basically being the industry standard, this is the easily the biggest issue limiting growth in the FGC, hands down. FG development is literally over a decade behind other genres.
One feature Id love to see in training mode that I've only seen in the 20XX mod pack for melee is the character status color. More than just frame advantage colors. I'm currently learning Johnny in +R and getting the timing down for some of his air combos are difficult but I can manage it. It would be cool to set things like the "Wait : Green" feature in 20xx where your character is highlighted green when you're no longer in end lag "recovery", I also love IASA colors (Interrupt as soon as) showing off cancel windows. Not a requirement by any means but a cool feature that I thought would be cool.
Skullgirls has a different colour character hurtboxes/collision boxes for every game state in training mode. If I’m interpreting you correctly, it has the same thing as 20XX, but it’s an uncommon feature as that’s the only example I have in hand
@@DripNZ Oh does it? thats sick. Yeah in 20XX you can set it so the game highlights your character different colors depending on their state. For example the settings I used when I played were ; Green : Wait (Neutral position) Blue : Run (Really good for Capt Falcon to see how long your dashes really are) Orange : IASA (Interrupt As Soon AS) White and red flash for correct or missed L cancel I got deeper into with different fall types being different colors as well but that too much for this discussion.
@@chancechhet3956 Just wait until you start getting dove, that's when the true learning begins on Johnny, without a meterless reversal it takes lots of effort IMO. Learning how to deal with the various zoners in the game is the first big hurdle though IMO as well, still haven't found a foolproof way of dealing with Justice after losing the initial interaction.
TFH, Skullgirls, and Power Rangers will always be some of the golden standards for fighting games IMO. Good netcode, great lobbies, good training mode. TFH even went a step further and gave us online PvP training mode bro like what else can you ask for. If every fighting game took a few notes from these, the FGC would honestly be spoiled with great games.
This stuff always bugs me, especially because when new smaller indie titles HAVE these things, people dont play them because they arent their standard favorites.
This is arrogance talking. Indie devs usually don't have resources to hire popular voice actors or artists, create tons of offline content (like MK/Injustice) and launch an expansive marketing campaign to get a whole world hyped up. Thus, they have to shine with stuff that are ignored by complacent AAA developers, like QoL. It also helps to have a solid netcode when your already small playerbase is spread around the globe.
@@NaoyaYami I agree! But Them's Fighting Herds. Which ticks all your boxes But no one plays them because "lol poniez ew". So yeah, we're back to "they won't olay it because it ain't the big three"
@@NaoyaYami Considering Triple-A devs have the resources to make tons of offline content, they sure don't seem to bother these days... You're not wrong. They're getting really complacent and I'm getting really sick of it.
@@janematthews9087 TFH is literally the perfect fighting game package. the only thing holding it back is the small roster and the MLP aesthetic which is unfortunate cause all the characters are fantastic.
When I started up Ranked in Strive it set me on Floor 2 with no one else there, I ended up having to play on floor 4 and losing so much it booted me to floor 1, and that was apparently a good day. Everytime I play I bounce between US W, US E, and JP until I find a playable match. I can't imagine trying to find a match in a game without Rollback, and I'm glad I never have to.
I remember that tweet, I left a supportive response and forgot about it until it blew up with so many salty pissy responses, was absolutely hilarious how in denial people were about needing rollback
Lmao the original video is what brought me here to begin with. If P4U doesn't have rollback I'll still be happy that it isn't trapped on those old systems, but I struggle to see the point in doing this port at all if it doesn't have it especially with how many old arcsys games have been getting it. It has been disappointing to see how slow this genre has been to improve on qol features since it is taking/has taken so long for many devs to even think adding these essential features is necessary. Never mind actually improving upon them in any way.
But isn't rollback for those older games just something that was started by fans in the first place and ArcSys just paid them once they already done most work? I know that at least +R went that route (and IIRC it was first older ArcSys game to get rollback).
@@NaoyaYami I didn't really look into how it happened with those older games, but I would imagine that the engines are similar enough that work on bbtag or something could transfer over to some degree. Hopefully if it was fan driven the inertia of those releases will make them keep doing this in the future if for no other reason than to take credit for it.
People are worried if you call out problems with a game, no one will play it and the community will die. When realistically most of the people calling stuff out are saying out of concern for the game and community and want the game to be a better overall package for longevity.
It's the classic twitter problem. You say some small thing about 1 thing, and the general twitterverse thinks you absolutely hate it or are telling people to shy away from it. Twitter definitely kills reading comprehension.
@@jaideepsingh4920 Yeah, but I think twitter in particular also encourages hot takes and people often talk in absolutes. Or when a tweet is reasonable, all the crazy small minority people twist it as an excuse to shit on a game they don't like.
@@Trigun_Bebop People do talk in absolutes, but in this case, there was definitely a good amount of people who thought it was an absolute and it definitely was not. It's up to the individual to figure out the intention of the original post. If someone says, "I like dogs", and someone's immediate response is, "Damn, this dude hates cats", maybe re-read the sentence or take a break from the app. You're absolutely correct on your second point too. Almost every single week, I see a "Give me your ____ hot take" and it's just the worst tweets of all time that come from it. People also like to dogpile stupid thoughts and that makes the minority even more vocal since their voice spreads from all the activity. Overall, it's just a shitty app for discourse.
I wish it would be normal so see more advanced features in fighting games. Its frustrating when I see older games with great features, but the newer games didnt adopt them. It seems like developers are content with delivering a basic package, but I think some of those features could really expand and retain the player base. (i.e. GG+R replay feature.)
There’s actually an incentive to do short combos (the longer the combo, it not only increases the enemy gravity but gives the opponent bonus meter and turns non-super hard knockdowns into soft knockdowns)
@@malcovich_games Yeah I know- but that incentive doesn't outweigh the benefit of juggling your opponent for the entirety of the match, haha. (Obviously I speak from low level perspective, but one who can combo will almost always beat out one who can't ;u;)
@@KuzuTomoki Dependent on player style of course, but more often than not, some characters tend to reset the opponent a lot (Arizona) or do zoning (Velvet, Oleander) which doesn't give the opponent much meter to work with until they can do the kill combo to finish them off. Well, of course the better player wins... if they can't block, then yeah kill them for it, but sometimes you don't wanna leave them with meter to use the next round (ahem Oleander level 2 :) ) I can understand your perspective though, playing as Paprika, I used to be envious of long combos so did them all the time whenever I got a hit, but I did encounter a high level Paprika player who doesn't let the juggle meter fill up and ending combos with flash kick for lockdown, and I felt that was also a valid strategy. Though yeah! I hope you stick with the game. And try zoning for a bit. You might enjoy ending round 1 with 1.5 levels when the opponent has barely over half a level of meter heh heh.
Ah yes, the Beaten Wife syndrome of gaming. Where you got so little in the past that you are happy for scraps when a feast is there for the taking if you stop settling. But no... asking for the bare minimum or what has been done before is traitorous heresy.
Wasn't Strive supposed to have a "Combo Maker" feature like TFH where you can post combo routes and stuff like combo trials for other people? I feel like it was in a dev backyard at some point.
We're so close to rollback and frame data being ubiquitous in every fighting game. Very close. No idea why Strive would omit frame data when FighterZ had it. BUT...the next frontier I'm trying to get people riled up about is making hitboxes and hurtboxes visible in training mode. It's SO helpful when you're learning a character and want to be able to tell what's a disjoint. Then you've got stuff like Street Fighter V having some obscure hidden juggle counter that the game never tells you about that dictates what move will combo into what move; why not just surface that information?
I have a permanent vendetta against street fighter's juggle system. I spent the first couple years that I was interested in fighting games completely baffled about why my hitboxes just whiff right through people unless it was a juggle I specifically learned about online.
When this popped up in my recommended I honestly thought it was just the algorithm recommending the old video, and I thought why not, I’ll throw it up in the background while I work. Glad to see that the FGC never changes.
Hey, i hear that they "consider" to add rollback in to the game So how about we also "consider" to buy the game if it have rollback? Let them taste their own medicine xD
What goes through these companies' execs heads? "Maybe the demand for rollback will go away?" Yeah it will...when people stop playing fighting games. Is this the idea? Smother the fighting game genre to death instead of include a feature that even amateurs code into their diy free fighting games?
too many dumb people buy games because of the game having a recognizable IP/developer instead of the game being good or complete see deathloop and any bandai namco game
Japanese devs feel its fine playing in Japan and don't think about the experience anywhere else. Meanwhile an American dev in California plays with somebody living in New York and immediately realizes this is unacceptable and something has to be done
There are masterminds in the shadows of fighting games' industry that plan to make the genre go out of favor so they can buy out the developers for cheap. Then they will develop new fighting games with all those requested QoL and basic features and collect their paychecks!
So the devs/execs said they would "consider" rollback in a game that doesn't have it at launch... guess what's gonna happen? 1. The game has good sales - "See, it didn't need rollback to sell!" -Atlus 2. The game has bad sales - "Because the game didn't sell, we don't have the budget to implement rollback." -Atlus
@@arachnofiend2859 Japan dead seriously completely believes they're the default of all existence and better than everyone else in every way. It's a religion imprinted on them. So "Who cares if those filthy gaijin lag? They're not real people anyway!".
I live in a middle of nowhere, in a country, where fighting games are not that popular (besides MK) Not having rollback netcode is a number one reason for me to skip the game. Trying to play a delay based anime fg is basically pointless. BBTAG was so fun for me, but there is nobody to play with. And if there is one poor soul I can connect to, then the connection quality is just horrible. No rollback - no buy
Ye shes right. It's completely ridiculous to release a game without decent netcode these days. Especially since we're still kinda in the midst of the varus. I mean if you buy a fighting game, dont you want to be able to play it with other people?
Virus or not, for me there is no difference. I'm 34 years old, I have no friends irl playing fighting games, I'm an introvert and I live in the middle of nowhere in Russia. So, functional online is the only way for me to experience a match with a living opponent. And more I'm getting older, it's more and more getting essential. I wish I was always young.
Just started playing MK11 after not playing the series since twas a kid and was amazed the frame data is just available in the move lists. It really helped me explain to my friend the basics of frame data
I started playing blazblue, but no instant rematch and having to pick characters and go through 2 loading screens every single time really hurt the experience. I understand it's an old game but I'm so sick and tired of this shit lol
Rollback netcode is such a blessing, ever since bbcf got rollback I start looking for other fighting game that has rollback and joining discord for games that has low playerbase
Excusing devs for still not implementing quality features that should be basic is bad I agree, but the issue I and some other people take with the tweet is specifically the "no reason to buy games without it". If that's a personal philosophy you want to follow then that's completely fine but don't tell other people what kind of reasons they need for buying games, yes it was a recommendation in the first part of the tweet but then the second sentence comes off completely different. P4G sold really well on Steam and there's probably gonna be a decent amount of people that are gonna want to buy P4U just for the story mode continuation and will probably hardly even touch online, among other examples. I'm not gonna go tell them "there's no reason to buy the game" just because it doesn't have rollback, that's none of my business. Don't get me wrong, I definitely would wish for P4U to have good netcode but there's other features that people can enjoy about the game even without rollback.
3:20 that is how it works in Mortal Kombat. I wonder why people in the fgc ignore MK so much. Id love to play Samsho, if only i would get to play matches.
I seriously can't believe that it's 2022 and fighting game players are still having to fight devs for a complete online package. It feels like the devs are stuck in the mid to late 2000s/early 2010s when it comes to delivering an online experience. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to have features that have been around for almost a decade.
Lemme justify for Daemon Bride. No ports since examu literally died and there's being a revival with a new version in 2022 called EX again, but only for that new cab that's releasing. Boom, valid excuse
Preach it brother. We're really asking too much these days for simple shit? It reminds me of cancelling student debt. "No I had it rough so you should have to go through the same bullshit too". We're talking video games at the end of the day. Why is it so controversial? No competitive fighting game player should have the audacity to tell anyone that they don't notice that simple features are missing when they switch over to a different FG. Frame data, Side Switching, Resetting to Left/Right Corner the list goes on and on. It's perplexing to me that people are so adamant about not wanting to add simple shit in games that we are sinking our time into. Must be a GateKeeping OS if I've ever heard one.
But Sajam, having frame data as an option will scare new players. I see this one a lot. No, if they are scared by frame data, they would be scared by the current options anyways.
i almost feel like when making a fighting game, devs only focus on the gameplay and when they've finished that they dust their hands off for a job well done and ship the game
frame data is really what caps it off for me. its literally in the game already you already made the frame data all you have to do is put up a UI in training mode that pulls some numbers
We're at the point where we have so low standards that TFH (the game I play currently), which still lacks some basic features like ranked play, is the highest standard for fighting game with normal features... Wow
One thing that could be good for more games would be optional bland backgrounds, like SFV or Skullgirls' training arenas. I feel like those can help with things blending in to he background
I don't understand the "I like playing arcade mode, stop asking for rollback" mindset, like okay, you got what you wanted, lemme get what I want, this doesn't affect you it sounds like
I always want interesting single player modes, which I accept isn't really the target demo, but coming from a lot of MMO and ARPG games; there are nights where I just want to chill and grind. BBCF's Grim of Abyss? Amazing. Xrd's little level up and equip gear and items and stuff? So fun. I never expect it, but I always hope for it.
Nothing would be greater for a fighter than the world-record speedrun online system that is +R of just opening up the game, going online and into a match in around 9-10 seconds (I'm really not kidding), lowkey hope that Persona 4 Arena and many other fighters not only adds rollback as it should, but also find a way to have +R's online/lobby system that just super intuitive and quick to the point and have little decors and spice here and there, and not fricking Strive's lobby system which is the epitome of "Fashion over Function". Like IMO, the pixel avatars are unneeded, the pixel monitors along with the distance/adventure to them (for both you and your requested opponent, especially jumping up and down the rows) are also unneeded especially in friend lobbies, where you're str8 up playing your friend anyways or have a 3rd player there as well, so what's the point in the avatars and monitors in that specific aspect when you can just hook up a steam invite and go into a +R-esque lobby or character select screen against the other player and have a quick spectator mode, and if you wanna socialize with players it can be through steam's or playstation's messaging. Like Strive added too much fluff and no clear form or any form into just having someone play another person of their choosing in the world (outside of quick match where you're randomly pitted against someone), and many people don't want fluff and just wanna play and press buttons at another guy.
I won't link it but I made a reddit thread about this whole thing and a bunch of people got mad at me for telling them not to buy P4AU because it won't have rollback. I can't believe people are still bending over backwards to defend this stuff.
Its wild that the only game that quite literally has *everything* and then some is TFH, a game locked to PC with an art style that unfortunately doesn't have mass appeal...
A lot of gamers have weird mindsets in general, especially when it comes to being defensive against a bare minimum feature. Do they even realise how stupid they would sound if we applied that mindset to other products and services that we support in our lives?
It's in game netcode is wonky but SFV's simple search for ranked and/or casual matches with ping bar options keeps me coming back for its ease of use. Set it in the menu and wait or go to training and wait easy. Strive is all over the place but as far as I remember you could set it to search in training.
It has already been stated that P4au could get rollback could be added to a later date. Implication being Atlus/Sega is far too stupid to understand what the consumer wants, and will only ever consider investing rollback into a project that's already a financial success. With that in mind, I'm honestly having trouble trusting such painfully oblivious companies to even read THAT message, especially when a financial juggernaut like fighterz has still been left in the dark. It's really hard to follow the "They're stupid so talk to them in their language" argument when the natural extension is "Why would they suddenly stop being stupid, we're already surrounded by data that correlates rollback to financial success."
I think they should change the frame data according to the delays if they go delay base to eliminate “online tech”. Eg if a command grab is 15frames, in offline I will have 15frames to react. But if I’m on a 4frames delay online I will only have 11 frames to react. Because the delays are across the board. It makes a lot of reactable encounters into a read only situation.
I do not understand people defending companies making substandard products. It would be nice if we had good lobbies for those who like lobby systems but I would also really like if we could put more emphasis on good ranked systems and automatic match making for those who want to press "play" and get matched with some one at approximately their skill level, preferably with a wifi filter.
My favorite one, when someone said "Man, I wish DNF Duel had singleplayer content." was "DFO is the singleplayer. Just play that." If you ignore the fact that DFO is an MMO, it's an always online game, and plays nothing like its fighting game spinoff (DFO PvP =/= DNF) then yeah I guess it's basically the same game.
I think the biggest one for me is the lack of characters in games especially established franchises has been forgiven and shaken off. Like how tf did GG strive only launch with 15 characters? Especially when 3 of the DLC characters that already came out are ALREADY IN THE GAME.
i hope this is the year that you can finally stop talking about this. i really like the new analogies you used. gonna use the burger one for sure in my next discussion about this topic.
9:25 didn't arcsys say they were going to add a download function to online where you can record combos and post them for anyone to add to their library in Strive? I vaguely remember that from launch, but has that ever been implemented?
Every time this topic comes up, I feel like the fish guy in spongebob who's like " HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TEACH YOU THIS LESSON OLD MAN?" Honestly, yea, it isn't cool that asking for things to be better is the norm bc it clearly isn't the standard for games. We are getting there though, it'll take time
melty blood type lumina had a pretty rocky launch (for a lot of people) and has not the best lobby system. but i'm willing to deal with a game that (after the 1/13 patch) will only be missing out on parallel battle lobbies because the gameplay is great.
Really annoying how much demanding there is for balance patches and then they change the shit out of strive characters and general game mechanics while the lobbies are still half functioning and there’s no frame data in the game
Its 2022. When a fighting game releases, I check first if it has good online. If it doesnt, I dont even look at it. No rollback no buy. I pay for games that I can actually play.
I think people must be worried that if people acknowledge their game has flaws, then the perception of the game will be lower, and no one will want to play it. Fighting games (as individual series and as a whole) sometimes feel like theyre one bad game away from never getting a sequel. It feels like a game "has to do well" or it will die forever. Realistically, its kinda the opposite, because people are going to quietly be frustrated and quit anyways if its features are missing/broken. Instead, getting rollback is a huge boon to older games that can revitalize the online community. We've seen it several times. Basically i think its not a conscious desire to discourage making the game better and attracting new players. Its born of a fear that any change threatens to topple the house of cards thats all they have left. Also hearing "i wish this game had rollback" could sound like "this game needs to be better than it is if im gonna play it", and people love their game as is. Any admission that a game isnt perfect is like admitting that it deserves to be a dead game.
I honestly do not care if a fighting game does or does not have Rollback Netcode. Why? Because of two reasons… 1. A game’s online may be an important factor for most people, but it shouldn’t be the core reason as to why I want to play it. It shouldn’t be the only thing I think about when it comes to fighters. 2. I don’t even play fighting games online multiplayer. Hell I don’t play MOST video games online multiplayer. Not often anyway. So the netcode isn’t even a concern for me. If it has rollback, good. If it doesn’t, whatever.
The problem seems simple to me. Companies that make fighters seem to think most of their money comes from brand recognition (there's some evidence to support that, too, although I think it's not 100% true.) So from a business perspective, would you rather make one game as polished and fully-featured as it really should be, and pray that people recognize what they're getting, or do you pump out two or three games attached to different franchises, each of them cheaper, and have way more guaranteed sales because people go "ooOH Dragon Ball" or whatever? Of course that's not all that's happening, if it was Street Fighter would be the most polished, welcoming fighter on the planet, because it's goddamn Street Fighter.
Yea i wont buy a fighting game without rollback, not because the game wont be good, but because in a couple of months the community will be fed up with lag and the game will become a ghost town.
I have problems with what sajam defines as standard or essential for some stuff like a training mode for first beta I think as a privilege more than a standard. But training mode during second beta and frame data at launch as standard. However when I say that somebody would call me a shill and nothing gets done.
@@mitzi3262 Ok, please help me understand 🙏 You're saying that people call you a 'shill' when you say a training mode for a game's first beta is a privilege, and it's upsetting when they shut the discussion down?
@@yourbellboy Yeah because that's just the way I see it, but I can't get into any meaningful discussion since the conversation devolves into mockery and memes.
I never realized how heavily I relied on frame data apps until I played strive lol. The data needs to be in the game lol. Instant replay would be cool and replay take over to practice against situations you didn’t have an answer for. Simple lobbies are wanted a lot from me also. I hate strive lobbies.
my number one hated thing in strive is the "Connecting to server" that you can't influence in any way, got an SSD? great wait 5 minutes to connect? oh you got 500gb download? still 5 minutes. such a massively annoying thing to me to have go through like 2-3 times every single time i want to punch someone in the face online.
Granblue has such a good lobby system don't know why they don't mimic that more The xrd rooms were dope to They could have just made them bigger rooms for Stevie But hey the online is dope for strive at least
For a second I thought this was a 2 year old repost, but then I remembered this is the FGC we're talking about and it all made sense
I had a moment of confusion and dissociation like "didn't I watch this years ago? this was like the second or third sajam video I watched. what is going on" then I searched it and felt my bones crumble to dust
Sadly, Japanese developers are often of very traditional mindset (stuff like not looking at what other games do and how they solved some problems years ago, using outdated software and work flow, etc.) often to the detriment of whatever they are making (not only gaming - KyoAni tragedy costed not just priceless lives of many, but also huge part of studio's archives since it was not digital).
Hopefully pressure for global audience will discourage developers from releasing games with shitty netcode that only works when you're in the same city...
Exactly the same! I thought "An old video again?" And damn... I am more surprised of myself remembering the first video 3 years ago like it was last month than FCG in the same place regarding this issue.
The fgc is a flat circle. We're stuck in a loop where the same topics are brought back again constantly
They're all relevant topics that deserve to be revisited from time to time. Rollback has made strides since, many devs make it a priority to include it and get the appropriate praise when they do by creators making videos on those games. Conversely they get flak if they leave it out
i remember before rollback hit BBCF *everyone* was crying about how our friends wouldn't play the game with us because it didn't have rollback and all that, we *wanted* people to play with us so bad and when rollback finally hit we basically had a party. crazy that it's not just the standard tbh
The bar is on the ground and yet people are so damn eager to pull out their damn shovels. As a PC player I have been wanting not only Rollback but Crossplay for a while but man that feels like asking for something impossible with the current climate. People are whack, just want good games.
Of all the games that deserve cross play, fighting are just the most perfect fit. Hopefully the train comes around.
BuT PC iS FuLl of ChEaTeRZ aNd FiLtHy MoDdErS!!!!1
Do the devs think that their computer players are fun enough to buy the game alone? Idk why a genre that has literally always had multiplayer games (since arcades) has so many issues providing basic multiplayer features. If overwatch can do crossplay (significantly harder to crossplay FPS games from key/mouse to gamepad) theres no reason that fighters cant do the same. And thats not even touching on how these FPS games are leagues ahead in matchmaking/lobby systems (and they still get complaints about things they do wrong).
I really think the no instant rematch feature is the biggest example of all this. As someone that has developed a multiplayer game (although on mobile, but still a real time game) there is no excuse for that not being a core feature.
@@feelingveryattackedrn5750 Instant rematch should be mandatory especially for FGs where you select more than just your character (stuff like palette, control style, assists, assist type, extra moves or movement options).
BTW As I've mentioned in another reply, Japanese devs often are too traditional and don't really look at other games to see how they solved problems (often years ago) or what are current trends in the industry and I don't think there are many Japanese-made online FPS games anyway.
@@feelingveryattackedrn5750 I think the thing with a lot of the more popular genres is since there is/was SO much more competition in the field, most of these QOL issues got fixed pretty quick because if your game sucked, someone else came and did it better than you, and either you had to adapt or close your doors. For the FGC, the big companies are the only ones that have been making fighting games for AGES, and even now most indie fighters have a drastically smaller scene (biggest probably being Skullgirls), so they never really had to fix the "little things" because you didn't have many other options if you wanted to play a fighting game, and especially if you wanted to play specifically something like SF/Tekken. With the current climate in the FGC today, all those years of stagnation are coming to a head
"You just want rollback because it's cool to want rollback"
No, I live in very rural Canada. In delay-based games I would constantly face laggy matches and have people complain to me that my internet is garbage or to get off wi-fi. I have a fast fibre connection and I use ethernet, but I just happen to live in a place that is far from most people. With Strive, Melee and Type Lumina I've actually been able to play online matches with very few issues. From this point on rollback is simply a feature I want so I can avoid dealing with complainers in delay-based games.
If you live in a populated place with lots of players, sure go have fun, but rollback is pretty much a necessity for lots of us.
in South America it's also really bad, in most delay based games just finding matches in the first place is a challenge, let alone good connection ones, and if the game isn't very populated its pretty much a lost cause, if I wanted to play blazblue before rollback came out for example, I had to go to a discord and ask people in the US if they were willing to play some games at like 10 frames at best. What's worse, the fgc in Latin America is split in two because Brazil, the only country with a decently sized playerbase, has garbage internet routing with everyone else, so the potential player pool gets even smaller. Rollback on a game is definitely a huge selling point for me, if a game doesn't have it I'm probably better off just messing around with it in a pirated copy
high five, rural canada bois.
Shoutouts from South India dude. We're in the same boat
Dude the amount of crap I have to deal with in strive's lobbies are outrages. Disconnecting from podiums failing to connect to podiums for ages and such. But when the game begins God does it begin. No problem at all. The worst I had today was hitting a zato in the air but rollback got me sent back to being grabbed and that's it
that's absolutely nothing in comparison to how strive is performing in South America, the servers are pretty much dysfunctional, the game takes like 20 minutes just to load up the main menu and another 10 to load the lobbies menu, and that's only if an error doesn't happen somewhere in between that sends you back to the title screen, and even in the rare case that you manage to make it into a lobby or get into a game with somebody, you're very likely to get disconnected within the first 3 minutes. I and a lot of other people pretty much haven't been able to play the game at all for the last month or so, this really needs to get to arcsys's ears
Oh shit it's the run back. Hope Sajam is ready for round 3 of this matchup in 2024.
SF6 just came out, let's hope maybe the anime scene can dodge this bullet in a year you feel me?
2024, the year when the new fighting just crash when you're trying to get a match
It's still wild that I could still see a fg get announced and my reaction is "sick is this playable online" when the technology is old at this point
Have you seen a trailer for a fighting game that you were already aware didn't have rollback before hand. Shit hurts. Like " i wish could enjoy this".
@@BushidoMauve Yeah, that's basically me with the Persona 4 Arena re-release right now...
@@Zevox87 We'll know when P4 re-drops.
Had the same thing before the DNF Duel Beta. Character trailers and everything looked great, so trying out the beta was a no-brainer. Until they officially confirmed it, though, there was always that small fear of delay-based.
Man I just don't get why people bitch about cars with sticky gearshifts. Like its not that big of a deal, you can adjust to it. We called it "delay based driving" and that was how cars were driven. Back in my day we just had to deal with it and that was that, if you got in an accident and died, well RIP bozo you know? All this talk about making it a "standard to have an efficient and well-lubricated gearshift system" is just total zoomer nonsense.
You never know when someone might put a gun to your head and tell you to either perform a hard, input intensive combo in delay-based online fighter, or die.
Yeah, and with those stupid new gearshifts we get those dumbos who can't obey traffic law teleporting into you with their cars, one minute you're safe the next you're dead.
Can't believe all these spoiled zoomers want rollback break pads. My delay based break pads work fine, I've only been in like 27 accidents this year.
REAL.
I'm SO fucking tired of people pretending an ENTIRE mode of play NOT WORKING is at ALL acceptable.
"Bro, how entitled can you be? You think the movie should have an ending? Real fans don't need or even want closure. Why don't you just make your own movie with a 'complete story arc' if it's so important to you?"
You said it all. I can understand why someone would get upset when a person says there is "literally no reason" to buy a game without rollback. Sometimes you just like the game and that's good enough reason, but getting up in arms and defending bad decisions, laziness, and willful ignorance by a developer is pretty stupid.
Roll back is the end all be all lol
@@DANCERcow nah it's the bare minimum
@@venturefox9328 no not having it is the bare minimum. Not having online in a fighting game is the bare minimum
This. I am going to buy and play P4U. The original P4A is _the_ reason I am a fighting game player today, but I never had the chance to play it online. The chance to play and learn the game in current year, without having to trackdown a PS3 and my old copy, even with bad netcode is worth it to me. Barely. I wouldn't do this for literally any other game, and I wouldn't recommend anyone else buy this without a guarantee of rollback, but I'm getting really tired of people implying I'm not allowed to decide to buy it without somehow being some kind of traitor or corporate stooge.
I like the game, I wanna play it, no rollback sucks and you probably shouldn't buy it without rollback. But I am going to. Stop bugging me about it.
for my 2 cents as a super casual player, netcode doesn't automatically make a game a buy/no buy for me, as I pay attention to everything else the game offers.
but if we've already had netcode figured out for this long, and THIS many people are demanding it, it's still pretty inexcusable not to have rollback.
like you're just being stubborn at that point lmao
Apparently some games straight up CAN'T have rollback because of how they were developed...
But I'm pretty sure P4AU isn't one of them, considering Blazblue could
I honestly think ATLUS is just porting P4AU as a “alright, it’s persona’s 25th; here’s some table scraps” and not even giving half a shit about how much that game means to fans and the FGC.
As an even more casual player, I don't even play multiplayer modes. That's why I still haven't bought Strive, but still play Blazblue for it's abyss modes, and have pre-purchased P4U hearing they will have something rpg-like.
From what I've seen even casual players need rollback if they want to play online and live in areas that aren't densely populated, that also have good internet infrastructure. If you live somewhere rural, or from the sound of it literally anywhere in the continent of South America, rollback is needed for the game to not feel awful online.
dude i really couldn't care less about not having a ping indicator in strive when the lobbies are as dysfunctional as they are
going into a strive lobby feels like going into a run down public bathroom where you have to check every stall only to find most of them are unusable
Even with rollback as good as strive's the online experience is still ass because ranked and lobbies suck
Great analogy
I have mentioned a few times that I wished that Arc’s games just had a quick match queuing system and I can’t tell you how many times people in the FGC have told me that having a quick match queuing system wouldn’t work in a fighting game….I’m like, you know that some fighting games already do this successfully right?
I just want to select play and be matched with someone.
holy shit, literally, all i want is fucking quick match, just get me matched up with literally anyone, dbfz does it and it works, tekken does it, it works, melty does it, it fucking works, lobbies are meant for customs and friendlies and theres no reason not to have it
Thats why I stick to Mortal Kombat.
Tbf quick match in +R doesn't work super great. Generally more functional than Strive's lobbies but not perfect. Quick match doesn't automatically make things easier.
I do not understand Arc Sys's obsession with lobbies? Are they just completely unable to code a match making algorithm? You know, so people just playing random strangers could get matched efficiently.
@@happycamperds9917 sorry to tell you but i work in tech and let me tell you it's infinitely easier to do than lobbies, and it doesn't matter because there's no way in hell this far in we shouldn't be having basic features we used to have, it's literally just arrogance at this point
The combo folder for training mode is something I wish was in fighting games for AGES now. Glad someone else said it lmao.
Would be cool if "recording" a combo would also generate a code you can type to access it instead of having to paste a folder
This is amazing not only for custom combo challenges but also for training AGAINST these combos.
Doesn't matter if I want to practice against a combo my friend beats me over and over with, since I can't perform that combo myself to record it for dummy.
Also, I know of only one game (DB FighterZ) that properly mirrors recorded inputs when I switch sides with dummy (I haven't played Strive though).
@@NaoyaYami Killing Instinct (2013) does the mirroring, as does Them's Fightin' Herds.
@@Shirojyuu Good to know it's not some one-off idea I've seen just once then. I haven't played every FG out there after all and would never check those two titles myself as well.
@@NaoyaYami plus r lets you pick whether you want to mirror or not mirror, which is the best of both worlds.
Why are people against the idea of making their FAVOURITE fighting game playable online?
Literally baffling 😑
Im not against the idea. Im just pissed that people act like the game is unplayable without a feature(s).
@@sagittario42 Realistically, for some people, having rollback is required to even play the game. My nearest local is more than 3 and a half hours away, and online delay based games Most of my good matches are no less than 4 frames most of the time higher.
@@sagittario42 depending, netcode can make a game unplayable. Ive dropped games because I can only play online and having matches freeze/lag constantly is too frustrating
@@sagittario42 If a game is totally unenjoyable, then it might as well be unplayable
@@chancechhet3956 and if thats the case then they need to move on to something with the features they desire. If they want a game they like with certain features they can do a survey or make a peaceful and respect potation to the developers social media.
oh, a colourblind mode for strive would be so good. some stages just make characters look like a blur
i always feel bad when i see someone comment about adding colorblindness options on any game really, that must suck, hope they add it for you guys
Or some stages where Eddy really blends in and Zatos go there on purpose
A game that had a big problem with no colourblind options recently was Dead by Daylight which required the killer to be able to track survivors using red scratch marks that appear on the environment as they run because without them its extremely hard to not lose them the moment they break line of sight so it was pretty much impossible for someone who couldn't differentiate red from other colours to even play one half of the game.
Luckily they added colour blind options but it took an unacceptable amount of time, the current theory to why they never even acknowledged it until they added it was that they thought it would be exploited to gain an unfair advantage (lmao what) by players who didn't need it.
The other excuse that's annoying is people think the ability to make good game design excuses other faults.
"Glorious Japanese devs make the best fighters. They shouldn't need to waste time making good complete packages. Leave that to shit western developers and their shit fighting games"
Come on now.
Ah, yes, the bad ol' weeb argument.
3:15
Aside from unplayable netcode basically being the industry standard, this is the easily the biggest issue limiting growth in the FGC, hands down.
FG development is literally over a decade behind other genres.
One feature Id love to see in training mode that I've only seen in the 20XX mod pack for melee is the character status color. More than just frame advantage colors. I'm currently learning Johnny in +R and getting the timing down for some of his air combos are difficult but I can manage it. It would be cool to set things like the "Wait : Green" feature in 20xx where your character is highlighted green when you're no longer in end lag "recovery", I also love IASA colors (Interrupt as soon as) showing off cancel windows.
Not a requirement by any means but a cool feature that I thought would be cool.
Skullgirls has a different colour character hurtboxes/collision boxes for every game state in training mode. If I’m interpreting you correctly, it has the same thing as 20XX, but it’s an uncommon feature as that’s the only example I have in hand
That feature is sick and also +R Johnny is sick hope you're enjoying him
@@DripNZ Oh does it? thats sick. Yeah in 20XX you can set it so the game highlights your character different colors depending on their state.
For example the settings I used when I played were ;
Green : Wait (Neutral position)
Blue : Run (Really good for Capt Falcon to see how long your dashes really are)
Orange : IASA (Interrupt As Soon AS)
White and red flash for correct or missed L cancel
I got deeper into with different fall types being different colors as well but that too much for this discussion.
@@Cunt143 I really am. Sad that I get zoned out like a MF playing him but we are learning. I want him in strive.
@@chancechhet3956 Just wait until you start getting dove, that's when the true learning begins on Johnny, without a meterless reversal it takes lots of effort IMO. Learning how to deal with the various zoners in the game is the first big hurdle though IMO as well, still haven't found a foolproof way of dealing with Justice after losing the initial interaction.
TFH, Skullgirls, and Power Rangers will always be some of the golden standards for fighting games IMO.
Good netcode, great lobbies, good training mode. TFH even went a step further and gave us online PvP training mode bro like what else can you ask for.
If every fighting game took a few notes from these, the FGC would honestly be spoiled with great games.
skullgirls also has multiplayer online training mode, but the become rooms are kinda janky if theres more than 4 people in them
@@harryvpn1462 Been a while since I've played it and I never knew that! Nice.
Add killer instinct to that mix
One of the best fighting games in terms of features is based on my little pony, what a timeline lmao
This stuff always bugs me, especially because when new smaller indie titles HAVE these things, people dont play them because they arent their standard favorites.
The indie fighting game ticket has been H O T the past couple of years too. People are missing out on some real winners
This is arrogance talking.
Indie devs usually don't have resources to hire popular voice actors or artists, create tons of offline content (like MK/Injustice) and launch an expansive marketing campaign to get a whole world hyped up. Thus, they have to shine with stuff that are ignored by complacent AAA developers, like QoL.
It also helps to have a solid netcode when your already small playerbase is spread around the globe.
@@NaoyaYami I agree!
But Them's Fighting Herds. Which ticks all your boxes
But no one plays them because "lol poniez ew".
So yeah, we're back to "they won't olay it because it ain't the big three"
@@NaoyaYami Considering Triple-A devs have the resources to make tons of offline content, they sure don't seem to bother these days...
You're not wrong. They're getting really complacent and I'm getting really sick of it.
@@janematthews9087 TFH is literally the perfect fighting game package. the only thing holding it back is the small roster and the MLP aesthetic which is unfortunate cause all the characters are fantastic.
Tekkens punishment training was so interesting I almost forgot they charged us for frame data
Oh, wow, WHAT?! "You must be this rich to git gud" *FUUUUUUUUUUUU*
When I was getting in to fighting games my fave for ages was +R just because it had so much single player stuff we need more of that to
When I started up Ranked in Strive it set me on Floor 2 with no one else there, I ended up having to play on floor 4 and losing so much it booted me to floor 1, and that was apparently a good day. Everytime I play I bounce between US W, US E, and JP until I find a playable match. I can't imagine trying to find a match in a game without Rollback, and I'm glad I never have to.
I remember that tweet, I left a supportive response and forgot about it until it blew up with so many salty pissy responses, was absolutely hilarious how in denial people were about needing rollback
It's especially venomous there because OP by woman.
Lmao the original video is what brought me here to begin with. If P4U doesn't have rollback I'll still be happy that it isn't trapped on those old systems, but I struggle to see the point in doing this port at all if it doesn't have it especially with how many old arcsys games have been getting it.
It has been disappointing to see how slow this genre has been to improve on qol features since it is taking/has taken so long for many devs to even think adding these essential features is necessary. Never mind actually improving upon them in any way.
But isn't rollback for those older games just something that was started by fans in the first place and ArcSys just paid them once they already done most work? I know that at least +R went that route (and IIRC it was first older ArcSys game to get rollback).
@@NaoyaYami I didn't really look into how it happened with those older games, but I would imagine that the engines are similar enough that work on bbtag or something could transfer over to some degree. Hopefully if it was fan driven the inertia of those releases will make them keep doing this in the future if for no other reason than to take credit for it.
People are worried if you call out problems with a game, no one will play it and the community will die. When realistically most of the people calling stuff out are saying out of concern for the game and community and want the game to be a better overall package for longevity.
It's the classic twitter problem. You say some small thing about 1 thing, and the general twitterverse thinks you absolutely hate it or are telling people to shy away from it. Twitter definitely kills reading comprehension.
@@jaideepsingh4920 Yeah, but I think twitter in particular also encourages hot takes and people often talk in absolutes. Or when a tweet is reasonable, all the crazy small minority people twist it as an excuse to shit on a game they don't like.
I agree , but a lpt of people do enjoy shitting on other games
@@Trigun_Bebop People do talk in absolutes, but in this case, there was definitely a good amount of people who thought it was an absolute and it definitely was not. It's up to the individual to figure out the intention of the original post. If someone says, "I like dogs", and someone's immediate response is, "Damn, this dude hates cats", maybe re-read the sentence or take a break from the app. You're absolutely correct on your second point too. Almost every single week, I see a "Give me your ____ hot take" and it's just the worst tweets of all time that come from it. People also like to dogpile stupid thoughts and that makes the minority even more vocal since their voice spreads from all the activity. Overall, it's just a shitty app for discourse.
@@jaideepsingh4920 I agree with everything you said, and yeah. that's why I'm not on twitter. xD
I wish it would be normal so see more advanced features in fighting games. Its frustrating when I see older games with great features, but the newer games didnt adopt them. It seems like developers are content with delivering a basic package, but I think some of those features could really expand and retain the player base. (i.e. GG+R replay feature.)
Cheers to the PLAY button. Please. I don't see why Fighting games don't want to have this.
I love TFH's lobby, and the adaptive music and the well animated polish. I just wish it wasn't so combo heavy ;u;
There’s actually an incentive to do short combos (the longer the combo, it not only increases the enemy gravity but gives the opponent bonus meter and turns non-super hard knockdowns into soft knockdowns)
@@malcovich_games Yeah I know- but that incentive doesn't outweigh the benefit of juggling your opponent for the entirety of the match, haha. (Obviously I speak from low level perspective, but one who can combo will almost always beat out one who can't ;u;)
@@KuzuTomoki Dependent on player style of course, but more often than not, some characters tend to reset the opponent a lot (Arizona) or do zoning (Velvet, Oleander) which doesn't give the opponent much meter to work with until they can do the kill combo to finish them off.
Well, of course the better player wins... if they can't block, then yeah kill them for it, but sometimes you don't wanna leave them with meter to use the next round (ahem Oleander level 2 :) )
I can understand your perspective though, playing as Paprika, I used to be envious of long combos so did them all the time whenever I got a hit, but I did encounter a high level Paprika player who doesn't let the juggle meter fill up and ending combos with flash kick for lockdown, and I felt that was also a valid strategy.
Though yeah! I hope you stick with the game. And try zoning for a bit. You might enjoy ending round 1 with 1.5 levels when the opponent has barely over half a level of meter heh heh.
I am once again asking you for basic functionality.
Ah yes, the Beaten Wife syndrome of gaming. Where you got so little in the past that you are happy for scraps when a feast is there for the taking if you stop settling. But no... asking for the bare minimum or what has been done before is traitorous heresy.
It's amazing for me that TFH, the my little pony fighting game has some of the best online and QoL features beating out many AAA games on those terms.
Always great to hear praise for TFH! Great game I hope more people jump into
Wasn't Strive supposed to have a "Combo Maker" feature like TFH where you can post combo routes and stuff like combo trials for other people? I feel like it was in a dev backyard at some point.
Yes yes, exactly, they are adding this some time later
It's in the game.
We're so close to rollback and frame data being ubiquitous in every fighting game. Very close. No idea why Strive would omit frame data when FighterZ had it. BUT...the next frontier I'm trying to get people riled up about is making hitboxes and hurtboxes visible in training mode. It's SO helpful when you're learning a character and want to be able to tell what's a disjoint. Then you've got stuff like Street Fighter V having some obscure hidden juggle counter that the game never tells you about that dictates what move will combo into what move; why not just surface that information?
The thing about a hitbox display is... As far as I'm aware in Japan Capcom have a patent on that, so other jp companies can't do this.
I have a permanent vendetta against street fighter's juggle system. I spent the first couple years that I was interested in fighting games completely baffled about why my hitboxes just whiff right through people unless it was a juggle I specifically learned about online.
The interactive replay system in +R is quickly becoming one of my top desired features. Makes problem solving so accessible and simple.
When this popped up in my recommended I honestly thought it was just the algorithm recommending the old video, and I thought why not, I’ll throw it up in the background while I work. Glad to see that the FGC never changes.
Hey, i hear that they "consider" to add rollback in to the game
So how about we also "consider" to buy the game if it have rollback?
Let them taste their own medicine xD
What goes through these companies' execs heads? "Maybe the demand for rollback will go away?" Yeah it will...when people stop playing fighting games. Is this the idea? Smother the fighting game genre to death instead of include a feature that even amateurs code into their diy free fighting games?
too many dumb people buy games because of the game having a recognizable IP/developer instead of the game being good or complete
see deathloop and any bandai namco game
Japanese devs feel its fine playing in Japan and don't think about the experience anywhere else. Meanwhile an American dev in California plays with somebody living in New York and immediately realizes this is unacceptable and something has to be done
There are masterminds in the shadows of fighting games' industry that plan to make the genre go out of favor so they can buy out the developers for cheap. Then they will develop new fighting games with all those requested QoL and basic features and collect their paychecks!
So the devs/execs said they would "consider" rollback in a game that doesn't have it at launch... guess what's gonna happen?
1. The game has good sales - "See, it didn't need rollback to sell!" -Atlus
2. The game has bad sales - "Because the game didn't sell, we don't have the budget to implement rollback." -Atlus
@@arachnofiend2859 Japan dead seriously completely believes they're the default of all existence and better than everyone else in every way. It's a religion imprinted on them. So "Who cares if those filthy gaijin lag? They're not real people anyway!".
I live in a middle of nowhere, in a country, where fighting games are not that popular (besides MK)
Not having rollback netcode is a number one reason for me to skip the game. Trying to play a delay based anime fg is basically pointless.
BBTAG was so fun for me, but there is nobody to play with. And if there is one poor soul I can connect to, then the connection quality is just horrible.
No rollback - no buy
Ye shes right. It's completely ridiculous to release a game without decent netcode these days. Especially since we're still kinda in the midst of the varus. I mean if you buy a fighting game, dont you want to be able to play it with other people?
Virus or not, for me there is no difference. I'm 34 years old, I have no friends irl playing fighting games, I'm an introvert and I live in the middle of nowhere in Russia. So, functional online is the only way for me to experience a match with a living opponent. And more I'm getting older, it's more and more getting essential. I wish I was always young.
That zoom in on the word recommend was great
People seem to not know that word, appreciate the exposure
such a shame that 3 years later we are STILL having this conversation...
I liked that edit where you zoom in on the word recommended as he highlights it, good job Moste
Just started playing MK11 after not playing the series since twas a kid and was amazed the frame data is just available in the move lists. It really helped me explain to my friend the basics of frame data
I started playing blazblue, but no instant rematch and having to pick characters and go through 2 loading screens every single time really hurt the experience.
I understand it's an old game but I'm so sick and tired of this shit lol
Rollback netcode is such a blessing, ever since bbcf got rollback I start looking for other fighting game that has rollback and joining discord for games that has low playerbase
I hope capcom update usf4 with rollback
Excusing devs for still not implementing quality features that should be basic is bad I agree, but the issue I and some other people take with the tweet is specifically the "no reason to buy games without it". If that's a personal philosophy you want to follow then that's completely fine but don't tell other people what kind of reasons they need for buying games, yes it was a recommendation in the first part of the tweet but then the second sentence comes off completely different.
P4G sold really well on Steam and there's probably gonna be a decent amount of people that are gonna want to buy P4U just for the story mode continuation and will probably hardly even touch online, among other examples. I'm not gonna go tell them "there's no reason to buy the game" just because it doesn't have rollback, that's none of my business. Don't get me wrong, I definitely would wish for P4U to have good netcode but there's other features that people can enjoy about the game even without rollback.
3:20 that is how it works in Mortal Kombat. I wonder why people in the fgc ignore MK so much.
Id love to play Samsho, if only i would get to play matches.
I seriously can't believe that it's 2022 and fighting game players are still having to fight devs for a complete online package. It feels like the devs are stuck in the mid to late 2000s/early 2010s when it comes to delivering an online experience. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to have features that have been around for almost a decade.
she's right, no reason to buy it if it doesn't have roll back
It's been 3 years since that video?! Oh my lord... and not much has changed.
Lemme justify for Daemon Bride. No ports since examu literally died and there's being a revival with a new version in 2022 called EX again, but only for that new cab that's releasing. Boom, valid excuse
Preach it brother. We're really asking too much these days for simple shit? It reminds me of cancelling student debt. "No I had it rough so you should have to go through the same bullshit too". We're talking video games at the end of the day. Why is it so controversial? No competitive fighting game player should have the audacity to tell anyone that they don't notice that simple features are missing when they switch over to a different FG. Frame data, Side Switching, Resetting to Left/Right Corner the list goes on and on. It's perplexing to me that people are so adamant about not wanting to add simple shit in games that we are sinking our time into. Must be a GateKeeping OS if I've ever heard one.
But Sajam, having frame data as an option will scare new players. I see this one a lot. No, if they are scared by frame data, they would be scared by the current options anyways.
A feature i personally like a lot is an in game chat that you can use DURING a match. It's in fightcade and i haven't seen it anywhere else
i almost feel like when making a fighting game, devs only focus on the gameplay and when they've finished that they dust their hands off for a job well done and ship the game
frame data is really what caps it off for me. its literally in the game already you already made the frame data all you have to do is put up a UI in training mode that pulls some numbers
Another example of a fighting game function I need is training mode! You know who you are
We're at the point where we have so low standards that TFH (the game I play currently), which still lacks some basic features like ranked play, is the highest standard for fighting game with normal features... Wow
One thing that could be good for more games would be optional bland backgrounds, like SFV or Skullgirls' training arenas. I feel like those can help with things blending in to he background
I don't understand the "I like playing arcade mode, stop asking for rollback" mindset, like okay, you got what you wanted, lemme get what I want, this doesn't affect you it sounds like
I always want interesting single player modes, which I accept isn't really the target demo, but coming from a lot of MMO and ARPG games; there are nights where I just want to chill and grind. BBCF's Grim of Abyss? Amazing. Xrd's little level up and equip gear and items and stuff? So fun.
I never expect it, but I always hope for it.
Nothing would be greater for a fighter than the world-record speedrun online system that is +R of just opening up the game, going online and into a match in around 9-10 seconds (I'm really not kidding), lowkey hope that Persona 4 Arena and many other fighters not only adds rollback as it should, but also find a way to have +R's online/lobby system that just super intuitive and quick to the point and have little decors and spice here and there, and not fricking Strive's lobby system which is the epitome of "Fashion over Function". Like IMO, the pixel avatars are unneeded, the pixel monitors along with the distance/adventure to them (for both you and your requested opponent, especially jumping up and down the rows) are also unneeded especially in friend lobbies, where you're str8 up playing your friend anyways or have a 3rd player there as well, so what's the point in the avatars and monitors in that specific aspect when you can just hook up a steam invite and go into a +R-esque lobby or character select screen against the other player and have a quick spectator mode, and if you wanna socialize with players it can be through steam's or playstation's messaging. Like Strive added too much fluff and no clear form or any form into just having someone play another person of their choosing in the world (outside of quick match where you're randomly pitted against someone), and many people don't want fluff and just wanna play and press buttons at another guy.
I won't link it but I made a reddit thread about this whole thing and a bunch of people got mad at me for telling them not to buy P4AU because it won't have rollback. I can't believe people are still bending over backwards to defend this stuff.
Its wild that the only game that quite literally has *everything* and then some is TFH, a game locked to PC with an art style that unfortunately doesn't have mass appeal...
TFH is too damn good
Skullgirls too, but from what I've seen TFH is definitely the peak in terms of good features.
A lot of gamers have weird mindsets in general, especially when it comes to being defensive against a bare minimum feature. Do they even realise how stupid they would sound if we applied that mindset to other products and services that we support in our lives?
The thing that blows me is when games are missing these online features AND the single player modes are nearly nonexistent....
It's in game netcode is wonky but SFV's simple search for ranked and/or casual matches with ping bar options keeps me coming back for its ease of use. Set it in the menu and wait or go to training and wait easy. Strive is all over the place but as far as I remember you could set it to search in training.
Coming from a mostly MOBA background, it's absolutely nuts how night and day the difference can be.
It has already been stated that P4au could get rollback could be added to a later date. Implication being Atlus/Sega is far too stupid to understand what the consumer wants, and will only ever consider investing rollback into a project that's already a financial success.
With that in mind, I'm honestly having trouble trusting such painfully oblivious companies to even read THAT message, especially when a financial juggernaut like fighterz has still been left in the dark.
It's really hard to follow the "They're stupid so talk to them in their language" argument when the natural extension is "Why would they suddenly stop being stupid, we're already surrounded by data that correlates rollback to financial success."
And by stupid logic, Atlus/Sega may also be like "look, the game sold great without rollback, no need to spend resources to implement it"
That burger analogy at the end is spot on. If a feature is known to make a game better and some alternate isn't there, why not have it?
A few years ago I actually went to a place where the burger was a patty, a bun and nothing else. Reminds me of 2019s Samurai Shodown, now.
I think they should change the frame data according to the delays if they go delay base to eliminate “online tech”.
Eg if a command grab is 15frames, in offline I will have 15frames to react. But if I’m on a 4frames delay online I will only have 11 frames to react. Because the delays are across the board. It makes a lot of reactable encounters into a read only situation.
I do not understand people defending companies making substandard products.
It would be nice if we had good lobbies for those who like lobby systems but I would also really like if we could put more emphasis on good ranked systems and automatic match making for those who want to press "play" and get matched with some one at approximately their skill level, preferably with a wifi filter.
Every game should have a training mode as good as KI's.
My biggest takeaway from this video is that Sajam is subbed to Akito Bass. Love that (Also UNI rollback pls)
“You just want rollback because its cool to want rollback” THE ULTIMATE COPE, just call your opponent a POSER LMAO
Rollback is the bare minimum, next is crossplay
Talk to em Sajam
Tuning a guitar is possible by ear, why do we need these baby mode tuners?
My favorite one, when someone said "Man, I wish DNF Duel had singleplayer content." was "DFO is the singleplayer. Just play that."
If you ignore the fact that DFO is an MMO, it's an always online game, and plays nothing like its fighting game spinoff (DFO PvP =/= DNF) then yeah I guess it's basically the same game.
I think the biggest one for me is the lack of characters in games especially established franchises has been forgiven and shaken off. Like how tf did GG strive only launch with 15 characters? Especially when 3 of the DLC characters that already came out are ALREADY IN THE GAME.
i hope this is the year that you can finally stop talking about this. i really like the new analogies you used. gonna use the burger one for sure in my next discussion about this topic.
rollback has been in use for over a decade now, it's just disappointing that it's not in every fighting game now.
Common Sajam W
9:25 didn't arcsys say they were going to add a download function to online where you can record combos and post them for anyone to add to their library in Strive? I vaguely remember that from launch, but has that ever been implemented?
Yes.
@@hmad898 Thank you Hoes Mad, very cool!
Every time this topic comes up, I feel like the fish guy in spongebob who's like " HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TEACH YOU THIS LESSON OLD MAN?" Honestly, yea, it isn't cool that asking for things to be better is the norm bc it clearly isn't the standard for games. We are getting there though, it'll take time
“It’s cool to ask for rollback” yeah sajam famously rewarded by gatekeepers for asking for better net play
melty blood type lumina had a pretty rocky launch (for a lot of people) and has not the best lobby system. but i'm willing to deal with a game that (after the 1/13 patch) will only be missing out on parallel battle lobbies because the gameplay is great.
Really annoying how much demanding there is for balance patches and then they change the shit out of strive characters and general game mechanics while the lobbies are still half functioning and there’s no frame data in the game
Its 2022. When a fighting game releases, I check first if it has good online. If it doesnt, I dont even look at it. No rollback no buy. I pay for games that I can actually play.
Aka "If these Indie Ponies make a more Feature Rich Fighter than your AAA Game don't @ Me."
I think people must be worried that if people acknowledge their game has flaws, then the perception of the game will be lower, and no one will want to play it. Fighting games (as individual series and as a whole) sometimes feel like theyre one bad game away from never getting a sequel. It feels like a game "has to do well" or it will die forever. Realistically, its kinda the opposite, because people are going to quietly be frustrated and quit anyways if its features are missing/broken. Instead, getting rollback is a huge boon to older games that can revitalize the online community. We've seen it several times. Basically i think its not a conscious desire to discourage making the game better and attracting new players. Its born of a fear that any change threatens to topple the house of cards thats all they have left. Also hearing "i wish this game had rollback" could sound like "this game needs to be better than it is if im gonna play it", and people love their game as is. Any admission that a game isnt perfect is like admitting that it deserves to be a dead game.
I honestly do not care if a fighting game does or does not have Rollback Netcode. Why? Because of two reasons…
1. A game’s online may be an important factor for most people, but it shouldn’t be the core reason as to why I want to play it. It shouldn’t be the only thing I think about when it comes to fighters.
2. I don’t even play fighting games online multiplayer. Hell I don’t play MOST video games online multiplayer. Not often anyway. So the netcode isn’t even a concern for me. If it has rollback, good. If it doesn’t, whatever.
The problem seems simple to me. Companies that make fighters seem to think most of their money comes from brand recognition (there's some evidence to support that, too, although I think it's not 100% true.) So from a business perspective, would you rather make one game as polished and fully-featured as it really should be, and pray that people recognize what they're getting, or do you pump out two or three games attached to different franchises, each of them cheaper, and have way more guaranteed sales because people go "ooOH Dragon Ball" or whatever?
Of course that's not all that's happening, if it was Street Fighter would be the most polished, welcoming fighter on the planet, because it's goddamn Street Fighter.
Yea i wont buy a fighting game without rollback, not because the game wont be good, but because in a couple of months the community will be fed up with lag and the game will become a ghost town.
If the FGC could agree on a 2022 resolution, this must be it.
I have problems with what sajam defines as standard or essential for some stuff like a training mode for first beta I think as a privilege more than a standard. But training mode during second beta and frame data at launch as standard. However when I say that somebody would call me a shill and nothing gets done.
@@mitzi3262 Ok, please help me understand 🙏
You're saying that people call you a 'shill' when you say a training mode for a game's first beta is a privilege, and it's upsetting when they shut the discussion down?
@@yourbellboy Yeah because that's just the way I see it, but I can't get into any meaningful discussion since the conversation devolves into mockery and memes.
@@mitzi3262 Hold up, testing...
I just replied to you twice, but RUclips silently deleted both replies
@@mitzi3262 Ok weird, I'll try breaking my reply up
First: Yeah, the internet is brutal like that sometimes. You have my sympathy 😵
I never realized how heavily I relied on frame data apps until I played strive lol. The data needs to be in the game lol. Instant replay would be cool and replay take over to practice against situations you didn’t have an answer for. Simple lobbies are wanted a lot from me also. I hate strive lobbies.
my number one hated thing in strive is the "Connecting to server" that you can't influence in any way, got an SSD? great wait 5 minutes to connect? oh you got 500gb download? still 5 minutes. such a massively annoying thing to me to have go through like 2-3 times every single time i want to punch someone in the face online.
Granblue has such a good lobby system don't know why they don't mimic that more
The xrd rooms were dope to
They could have just made them bigger rooms for Stevie
But hey the online is dope for strive at least