A video demonstration of a couple of methods to space holes on a machined part without the use of a rotary table or indexing head. Two methods are shown.
thank you for the advice. I love to watch people like yourself that will take on any job. I have been in engineering all of my life. I started out as a toolmaker and ended up in the maintenance side as Toolmaking became almost a thing of the past with CNC. I have built up my own workshop and have an old lathe and milling machine. so at the moment I am trying to build up my stock of needed tooling. keeping the cost down means making most of the tooling myself and I am enjoying every minute.
Good vid Tom, nicely done. For those who may not have twigged on yet, this is how a Vernier scale is made! Before I had a rotary table et al, I used this method with very high accuracy, even for gear teeth, and they're still going fine.
HI Tom I am new to your channel. I been a Machinist for about 30 years in the valve industry in southern Louisiana. I think videos like yours help out new machinist just wish they were available when I started. Thanks for the videos and keep up the good work. My hometown is Springfield,la.
Hi Glenn, Welcome to the show. I wish this stuff was around when I was learning too. Never too late to learn something new. Its a struggle just trying to keep up with all the subscriptions. We will get a pin up for you soon. All the best, Tom
Hi Matthew, Thanks for the comment and suggestion. Generally I use a tape that is zero or very low stretch for these kinds of things. Adding some paper to it would have made it handle better. Many times I will kill the glue a little by patting it with my dirty hand just for the reason you mention. Regards, Tom
Hi Slickoz, It depends on your indexer. You say you have a dividing head. If its a true dividing head then that will be your best option. A true dividing head has interchangeable circular plates with arrays of holes equally spaced. If you don't have this type then what you may have is an plain angular indexer. Regards, Tom
Hi Slickloz, You can do 127 with compound indexing. However the discussion is outside the scope of the 500 word limit on comments. Take a look in Machinery's handbook which has a good description on how to do compound indexing. There are several ways to skin any cat with machine work so don't worry about not being able to do it. Hope this helps. Best, Tom
Nice idea with the backing plate but is the face of the chuck exactly perpendicular to the gripping face of the jaws? That would be the only way to rely on the chuck face as an accurate locator, no?
Hi Reign, They will be available soon. The OX comes from my wife. When I'm clopping around the kitchen she shoos me away and calls me a big OX among other things. Also born on the year of the OX and a metal OX to boot. Regards, Tom
no idea how to send a question directly but here goes. I am new to the shop haven't even got my mill lath combo in the shop yet . can you do a video on basic tooling must have , nice to have a , and luxery items. be good to know where the best bang for my buck is. would love to build some of my own tooling also sine bar deviding head ect.
Hi Tom, I think you really need 21 marks for 20 spaces(first and last mark are the same). 20 Marks only gives you 19 spaces, rIght? Also, I think that this is easier to do if you take the circumference tape and lay it down straight across the horizontal, then take a scale or something else(like the graph paper) which has the 21 marks in a distance that is LONGER than the circumference, and line IT up as the hypotenuse. It's just easier to move a scale, rather than sticky tape, to line it up.
Wrong. If you want 20 holes you need 20 spaces. It's not like a ladder where you have one more space than there are rungs. I know someone who made a dozen tank manways one using you thinking and they needed 24 holes so they had 25 spaces. They got 25 holes.......lol Think about it. If you need two hole you will have two spaces. Four holes, four spaces.
Hi Chris, Thanks for the comment. Here are a couple of suggestions for you. Try to visit somebody near you that has a shop setup. Also as you watch the huge amount of video information on machine work on YT you will see common tools and equipment that the channel folks use over and over. Subscribe to Keith Fenner, Abom79,Doubleboost,Toms Techniques, Mrpete222 and watch till your eyeballs ache. After all that then open the tool catalog and have a browse. Hope this helps. Best, Tom
I've got a question and it's a good one! I have never seen anyone ask this yet on any channel. If you can afford a current version of the machinery's handbook you probably can afford an old version. Off of eBay or something like that. Do you have an opinion as to a specific year that you wouldn't go past? I mean it seems like most of this stuff would be good anytime after the thirties or forties. I know some standards have changed over the years a lot of them changed in the 20s so you can see my dilemma period Do you have an opinion on this?
Whenever I use the tape angular method I stick the tape to a steel rule, easy to line up to remove after marking. Using a mitre guage/square to mark the points is very accurate way to do it.
Hey Tom first ,thanks for sharing your knowledge. Second, there were an awful lot of oops in there . LOL. Now for a suggestion , one of those self healing cutting mats would work real well for the strip method. IMO
hi tom the dividing head has plates but to get to the 127 there is no plate I have that will allow this number. I have been told to use compound indexing but have never tried this method and would not know how to begin
It's more precise if your divisions are longer than the strip. Then you connect last points and use parallel lines to intersect the strip. That way you're minimizing the division error. However, system you shown is easier to execute because you use paper divisions. But, you place your trust into printing press accuracy...
I know that everyone doesn't have Adobe illustrator but you can do this with illustrator it will equally spaced anything between 2 points and you can print it off in a second accurately
I think I have watched this "series" 4 times now, and played with both methods. The simplicity of it kills me. I grew up in the age of CNC stuff, so any need for this was simple a simple program for me. That being said, there is something about doing all this kind of stuff the manual way. It seems to have more soul. Now... what I am really itching to know is, what is the copper contrivance in the background starting at 15:45? I assume your wife was making some metal sculpture?
Hi Tim, Glad you liked the video. At least somebody is watching it. The copper thing is indeed a sculpture. It was going to be a large yard bunny in copper. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, Tom
I've used this method using a paper tape stuck on with "cello tape" (scotch tape) much less fiddly! You stick the paper on the at the begining only, so it's not trying to stick it to things all the time!
still viable, you should update the video now with your better video equipment, so that I may archive it on my NAS for teaching people after the world ends.
youre very correct bigboy--this ox dont know much--just pretends aLOT--EVEN BINDED HIs OWN BOOK AND MADE A NEW VERSION WITH THE SAME SUPER BASIC KNOWLEdge that most begginers know--trying to make money
equipment limitations? if only to have a shop like this. possibly the limitation is too much equipment and not enough need to innovate. BRAD needs an indexer. ok BRAD, there is a very simple way to produce an index plate to do the job. one i can think of might utilize a spur gear??? find a means to set up and do the holes. if not available, my favorite method(propietary info since it took me 2+years of pondering to produce a plate suitable to index clock gear teeth; i didn't have dividing head etc.) would include a common hardware store item and several scraps of wood and screws, etc. so simple one would never think it would produce the result. you do need a metal lathe and a tool post set up to drill the plate holes and a home built detent set up for your lathe spindle. oh yes and i used an aluminum plate( available free at the time). i tried the strip method, not good enough for clock gears. the coordinate method is a nightmare.
Hi Bill, Thanks for the comment. Brads situation was a student wanted to do a small project with a similar sized ring. They did not have an indexer or anything handy to divide the ring periphery into the correct divisions. This video was to show a couple possible ways of doing the job with no special tooling. Now if you throw down and say you have this great way of doing it and are unwilling to share your method. By the way Horologists have been doing this for hundreds of years and I would bet your method is already known in those circles. Without seeing or a description of your process I don't think its fair to say its better, or that other methods are a nightmare unless you let us compare for ourselves. Regards, Tom
Switching tool holders, with the chuck spinning... And moving above the chuck? What if one of Your two fingers gripping that height adjusting screw decides to suddenly get bored of lifting? With the right spindle rpm - the right amount of height in the drop, and a hitting point at approx 11 o'clock on the spindle - the tool holder would end up in poor Tom's face. My vote goes to a relocation of the tool holder pit stop. Being an old grey-bearded and bald-headed guy myself, I know it's hard to hard in addition, to carry an ugly face around too. Don't be ugly, Tom! Build a new pit stop! Thanks for the tip and the otherwise, great video. ;)
thank you for the advice. I love to watch people like yourself that will take on any job. I have been in engineering all of my life. I started out as a toolmaker and ended up in the maintenance side as Toolmaking became almost a thing of the past with CNC. I have built up my own workshop and have an old lathe and milling machine. so at the moment I am trying to build up my stock of needed tooling. keeping the cost down means making most of the tooling myself and I am enjoying every minute.
Good vid Tom, nicely done. For those who may not have twigged on yet, this is how a Vernier scale is made!
Before I had a rotary table et al, I used this method with very high accuracy, even for gear teeth, and they're still going fine.
HI Tom I am new to your channel. I been a Machinist for about 30 years in the valve industry in southern Louisiana. I think videos like yours help out new machinist just wish they were available when I started. Thanks for the videos and keep up the good work. My hometown is Springfield,la.
Hi Glenn,
Welcome to the show. I wish this stuff was around when I was learning too. Never too late to learn something new. Its a struggle just trying to keep up with all the subscriptions. We will get a pin up for you soon.
All the best,
Tom
That backing plate is money.... Gonna steal that idea for sure!!! Great video!
+Max Adona Hi Max,
Rip on buddy. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Hi Matthew,
Thanks for the comment and suggestion. Generally I use a tape that is zero or very low stretch for these kinds of things. Adding some paper to it would have made it handle better. Many times I will kill the glue a little by patting it with my dirty hand just for the reason you mention.
Regards,
Tom
Hi Slickoz,
It depends on your indexer. You say you have a dividing head. If its a true dividing head then that will be your best option. A true dividing head has interchangeable circular plates with arrays of holes equally spaced. If you don't have this type then what you may have is an plain angular indexer.
Regards,
Tom
Hi Slickloz,
You can do 127 with compound indexing. However the discussion is outside the scope of the 500 word limit on comments. Take a look in Machinery's handbook which has a good description on how to do compound indexing. There are several ways to skin any cat with machine work so don't worry about not being able to do it.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Tom
great video Tom, thanks for showing some more of your tricks!
Hi Michael.
Thanks for the comment and participation.
All the best,
Tom
Nice idea with the backing plate but is the face of the chuck exactly perpendicular to the gripping face of the jaws? That would be the only way to rely on the chuck face as an accurate locator, no?
Hi Reign,
They will be available soon. The OX comes from my wife. When I'm clopping around the kitchen she shoos me away and calls me a big OX among other things. Also born on the year of the OX and a metal OX to boot.
Regards,
Tom
no idea how to send a question directly but here goes. I am new to the shop haven't even got my mill lath combo in the shop yet . can you do a video on basic tooling must have , nice to have a , and luxery items. be good to know where the best bang for my buck is. would love to build some of my own tooling also sine bar deviding head ect.
Hi Tom, I think you really need 21 marks for 20 spaces(first and last mark are the same). 20 Marks only gives you 19 spaces, rIght?
Also, I think that this is easier to do if you take the circumference tape and lay it down straight across the horizontal, then take a scale or something else(like the graph paper) which has the 21 marks in a distance that is LONGER than the circumference, and line IT up as the hypotenuse. It's just easier to move a scale, rather than sticky tape, to line it up.
Wrong. If you want 20 holes you need 20 spaces. It's not like a ladder where you have one more space than there are rungs. I know someone who made a dozen tank manways one using you thinking and they needed 24 holes so they had 25 spaces. They got 25 holes.......lol Think about it. If you need two hole you will have two spaces. Four holes, four spaces.
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the comment. Here are a couple of suggestions for you. Try to visit somebody near you that has a shop setup. Also as you watch the huge amount of video information on machine work on YT you will see common tools and equipment that the channel folks use over and over. Subscribe to Keith Fenner, Abom79,Doubleboost,Toms Techniques, Mrpete222 and watch till your eyeballs ache. After all that then open the tool catalog and have a browse. Hope this helps.
Best,
Tom
oxtoolco errr meh gerrrd you left out Mr. Keith Ruckers vintage machinery and that guys steam powered machine slop
I've got a question and it's a good one! I have never seen anyone ask this yet on any channel. If you can afford a current version of the machinery's handbook you probably can afford an old version. Off of eBay or something like that. Do you have an opinion as to a specific year that you wouldn't go past? I mean it seems like most of this stuff would be good anytime after the thirties or forties. I know some standards have changed over the years a lot of them changed in the 20s so you can see my dilemma period
Do you have an opinion on this?
Whenever I use the tape angular method I stick the tape to a steel rule, easy to line up to remove after marking. Using a mitre guage/square to mark the points is very accurate way to do it.
Thanks for these videos. And the book recommendation.
Hey Tom first ,thanks for sharing your knowledge. Second, there were an awful lot of oops in there . LOL. Now for a suggestion , one of those self healing cutting mats would work real well for the strip method. IMO
hi tom the dividing head has plates but to get to the 127 there is no plate I have that will allow this number. I have been told to use compound indexing but have never tried this method and would not know how to begin
That spacer is great I'm guna make one.
hi Tom I am looking to index a 127 gear for my lathe for metric screw cutting. I have a dividing head so what would my best option be
We also use the strip method in woodworking. It’s very commonly used.
Awesome ! Thanks Tom , I would love to be your apprentice.
It's more precise if your divisions are longer than the strip. Then you connect last points and use parallel lines to intersect the strip. That way you're minimizing the division error. However, system you shown is easier to execute because you use paper divisions. But, you place your trust into printing press accuracy...
Hi Tak,
Thanks for the comment. I can't remember how accurate this needed to be.
Cheers,
Tom
I know that everyone doesn't have Adobe illustrator but you can do this with illustrator it will equally spaced anything between 2 points and you can print it off in a second accurately
I think I have watched this "series" 4 times now, and played with both methods. The simplicity of it kills me. I grew up in the age of CNC stuff, so any need for this was simple a simple program for me. That being said, there is something about doing all this kind of stuff the manual way. It seems to have more soul.
Now... what I am really itching to know is, what is the copper contrivance in the background starting at 15:45? I assume your wife was making some metal sculpture?
Hi Tim,
Glad you liked the video. At least somebody is watching it. The copper thing is indeed a sculpture. It was going to be a large yard bunny in copper. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
I've used this method using a paper tape stuck on with "cello tape" (scotch tape) much less fiddly! You stick the paper on the at the begining only, so it's not trying to stick it to things all the time!
thanks for a very interesting video
is there an isbn or author for the book
Tom: see those little tic marks
Me: no!
Tom: okay? Good So...
still viable, you should update the video now with your better video equipment, so that I may archive it on my NAS for teaching people after the world ends.
Shows what I know. I thought the length of the tape would be the circumference of the ring plus twice the thickness of the tape...
youre very correct bigboy--this ox dont know much--just pretends aLOT--EVEN BINDED HIs OWN BOOK AND MADE A NEW VERSION WITH THE SAME SUPER BASIC KNOWLEdge that most begginers know--trying to make money
cool t shirt !
hii chack speed ?
equipment limitations? if only to have a shop like this. possibly the limitation is too much equipment and not enough need to innovate. BRAD needs an indexer. ok BRAD, there is a very simple way to produce an index plate to do the job. one i can think of might utilize a spur gear??? find a means to set up and do the holes. if not available, my favorite method(propietary info since it took me 2+years of pondering to produce a plate suitable to index clock gear teeth; i didn't have dividing head etc.) would include a common hardware store item and several scraps of wood and screws, etc. so simple one would never think it would produce the result. you do need a metal lathe and a tool post set up to drill the plate holes and a home built detent set up for your lathe spindle. oh yes and i used an aluminum plate( available free at the time).
i tried the strip method, not good enough for clock gears. the coordinate method is a nightmare.
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the comment. Brads situation was a student wanted to do a small project with a similar sized ring. They did not have an indexer or anything handy to divide the ring periphery into the correct divisions. This video was to show a couple possible ways of doing the job with no special tooling.
Now if you throw down and say you have this great way of doing it and are unwilling to share your method. By the way Horologists have been doing this for hundreds of years and I would bet your method is already known in those circles.
Without seeing or a description of your process I don't think its fair to say its better, or that other methods are a nightmare unless you let us compare for ourselves.
Regards,
Tom
oxtoolco you shrewd devil professional you.
a 20 or 40 tooth gear would save the day - use it as an index.
itsw called layout not layoff 22:57
Switching tool holders, with the chuck spinning... And moving above the chuck? What if one of Your two fingers gripping that height adjusting screw decides to suddenly get bored of lifting? With the right spindle rpm - the right amount of height in the drop, and a hitting point at approx 11 o'clock on the spindle - the tool holder would end up in poor Tom's face. My vote goes to a relocation of the tool holder pit stop.
Being an old grey-bearded and bald-headed guy myself, I know it's hard to hard in addition, to carry an ugly face around too. Don't be ugly, Tom! Build a new pit stop!
Thanks for the tip and the otherwise, great video. ;)
So complicated,sorry