Which in reality we have found to be not true as proof by the countless specialist pieces of equipment because general equipment won't simply do the task well and is part of why the rest of the phrase has been somewhat forgotten
The original was actually just to call someone a jack of all trades. Master of none was implied. But one of the earliest times it's seen used is as a way to call a playwright a hack. Which playwright? William Shakespeare. Practically speaking, there is need for both generalists and specialists. Generalists have a certain cross-disciplinary perspective that's good for leadership, problem solving, task flexibility, and innovation. But they're never as good at anything as a a specialist at what the specialist does. There's room for both.
Better than none.. I know how to do some things, and I believe one of those I have lots of experience and I love it and... It's not my first source of income 😔
Not to meantion it being “expensive”. I’m pretty sure it was meantioned as modular and quick to build as meant to swarm the borg. Only thing to make it expensive would be the ablative armour
For impulse speeds, Defiant's "pattern omega" or Sisko's manual control i.e. dependent on the pilot's skills. Above Warp 9, Defiant's weapons are not functional.
The CG guys went way overboard with the large-scale Dominion War battles, and depicting the Defiant as a fighter is just one big problem of many. I think you can pretty safely ignore any of the visual representation of the battles as schlocky action scenes.
the thing is that realistically the defiant class would have been the attack ship of the federation, it was cannonically designed as a swarming close in attack ship andcould have very easily been modified from the prototype for series production. things like the interceptor class while well conceived and a very nice looking design are post hoc rationalisations for the showrunners choice to not use the defiant class in large numbers on screen so as to not dilute its value as a hero ship, this is one of the areas where babylon 5 handled it so much better introducing the first whitestar as the hero ship for the station and first of its kind, the harbinger of things to come, but revealing later that the minbari had been mass producing them for the rangers after the prototype proved successful
@@gizmo8760 or or and hear me out just retrofit the excelsiors and mirandas up to current specs and pump out them fucking New Orleans classes like they were going out of style
@@michaelkeha In universe, the Excelsior and Miranda were both designed 100 years ago, literally, and were not designed for the roles required nor could they be parleyed into those roles. The New Orleans class was little more than a missile cruiser when combat fighters (Attack Ships) were needed.
the defiant class is a terrible star fleet ship. I love it but its crew accommodations are mediocre your in space in basically a Cold War sub, no holodecks to get your mind off of war limited medical facilities
I dont understand why you say the Defiant is not maneuverable. In the shows it is seen manuevering just as fast and tight as Birds of Prey and Jem Hadar attack ships.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing and I think it is larger then the size shown, its also very fast at impulse. Also the Defiant by the last season of Voyager was way more common which means easier to build.
Late post, but it might be because these ds9 defiant was tuned, considerably from the base model, and most of those tunings were to improve engine performance and maneuverability.
@@michaelkeha You are correct. However, think about the F-15, F-16, F-10, and F-35. While all of them are specifically military aircraft, all of them are able to fill multiple roles. Something that can do one thing with peerless capability is a good thing, but that does not mean that you cannot make devices, weapons, and vehicles that are better than they otherwise would be if made more specialized. One example of a hyper-specialized aircraft that performes with enormous effectiveness is the A-10 Thunderbolt. It is extremely specialized in ground attack, but because the US has such a large military, they can afford to support such systems.
@@michaelkeha Also keep in mind that the only absolute statement in the saying is that a jack of all trades is a master of none. The ultimate meaning of the phrase I think is that being so specialized that you lose all flexibility is generally a bad idea, but that such people or devices still can be helpful.
@@spatialgaming1967 The counter point is things like the DMRs, Sniper rifles, breaching equipment, bridge layers, air defence systems etc etc there is far more specialist gear in a military than general gear because there are far far more niches that need filling
The Interceptor would have been invaluable after the war as well. After a big war there are always groups that would try to capitalize on all the instability, the variability of the design would make it perfect as a Coast Guard type of roll.
You know what, I just love the way Interceptor looks. She looks sleek, nimble, and mean looking all the same. Exactly what an attack ship should be, no? Yay for fanverse shout outs! Love seeing the underloved works get a spotlight, especially from you!
i can see it being crewed more by Starfleet marines or more Tactical trained personnel it's small size/sensor signature and atmospheric/landing ability would make it hard to detect, perfect as a fast deployment vehicle for a commando team or Anti piracy security
The Defiant is an attack ship, but it’s a heavy attack ship purpose built to slug it out with larger and more powerful vessels. It just got pressed into service as a line breaker during the Dominion War because of its combination of speed, firepower and survivability.
It was also a stark departure from Khitomer Accords 24th century ship design. The Defiant class dispensed with the usual "peace ships" of its area, a deliberate philosophy to show other Alpha/Beta powers that the UFP was committed to its play-nice diplomacy. At the same time, it boasted Galaxy-class cruisers which only a fool would mistake for a science ship. However, they got away with it because she wasn't a dedicated warship.
I don't think it's a mistake to design warships to the 'Borg Standard', if anything that's a good idea, what is a mistake is to not learn lessons from the prototype and adjust the mainline ships for mass production and crewing while also adjusting the academy curriculum to cover it's newfound shortcomings. After all, if one ship design comes out needing a higher standard of competence then what does that say about the future? It may of course say nothing, but better to account for such a trend and have it vanish than not and have it continue.
5:07 - what would mass production of the Defiant be too expensive? When Sisko first brought it DS9 to make contact with the Dominion before the war, he, then later Bashir, remarked about its very spartan design(Bashir indicated that it did not have a sick bay).
I assume in material, the Defiant is supposed to be engines, guns and armor. And ablative are is ment to boil off, and the Defiant's cannons burn through some of it's parts during excessive combat. There is a ceremony placing the parts on a wall in the mess when Sisko is promoted to Ross' adjutant. That where I think he is coming from.
@nunya3163 A pocket battleship isn't a good analogy to the Defiant. Pocket battleships were almost as large as regular battleships, but they were more lightly armored so that they could be faster.
Notable ship names during the Dominion war. USS. Spitfire ( Interceptor class) USS Hurricane ( Defiant class ) USS Mustang ( Interceptor class ) USS Lancaster ( Akira class ) Dominion forces pull a quote from Monty python "Run away! Run away!"
So basically, the interceptor class is an intermediate between the Defiant, Intrepid, Nova, and Saber classes. I can see it doing well. Also, the Defiant class is likely more agile than not just the Hideki, but also the Romulan scout.
the defiant could turn on a dime and was pretty nimble. more a gunship than an a attack ship, i see the defiant as something similar to ww1 british monitors .
Think of the Defiant Class as a Paladin Knight, but carrying Multiple Gatling Guns that can turn reasonably well. Basically, a Brock Lesnar type if you're into Combat Sports or Pro Wrestling. Ridiculously Fast & Agile for it's size, over-powered, overtly durable.
Starfleet once again having to relearn old lessons again _the hard way._ If they had kept the Akayzi class's niche updated with each new generation of ship paradigms, Starfleet would have been far better prepared and just more effective on a day to day basis. They needed a small planetary landing capable counterpart to the Bird of Prey to act as a patrol ship and light general duties ship. And be cheap enough that Federation space was swarming with them. So that colonies and stations have a quick response helper for everything from raiders to weird phenomenon, to light cargo duties. And all the capital ships have a screening vessel and escort in case they run into weird space phenomenon of the week. No doubt Starfleet would retire the Interceptor class a few decades after the Dominion war anyway.
I've always seen the problem of "only a battlecruiser can hold a M/AM core". In TOS, that antimatter design was huge. By TNG, it was not much better. You could not put a M/AM reactor on a Runabout, or in a Galaxy class saucer section. Fusion reactors didn't produce enough power, yet, in TOS, to warp space past Warp 3, or power a ship-sized phaser bank for more than a split second. By DS9 and VOY, M/AM designs were finally small enough to even consider a Defiant, or an Interceptor. Runabouts were the cutting-edge of power vs. warp nacelle design on miniaturization.
I like the way you describe how these ships fit in. Although I like both of your channels, your collaboration with Drachinifel really was a highlight. This is a really beautiful design, it has a very clear design lineage. It also fits in well with the lore and would be believable as a cost effective design for the role it played
Been waiting patiently for an Interceptor video. Was shocked that was also about Attach Ship type vessels as the Interceptor seemed more like a simpler Intrepid Class Starship, but fleshing out the use and role of Attack Ships helped understand better a few battles from the Dominion War.
@venomgeekmedia9886 I've pictured the Interceptor as a wartime Intrepid because of a couple starships (Elkins and Yeager) use intact Intrepid saucer sections.
I think you might’ve slept on the Defiant too hard. I agree that the Interceptor was probably more versatile outside of combat. It had more internal space for equipment and higher warp speeds. However, in combat I don’t agree that Defiant was slower and less maneuverable. Everything we’ve seen shows it just as capable as other attack ships. In addition, it had twice the firepower and significantly better durability. I would frame them more as a high/low mix of Attack ships due to the cost of Defiant. There are fewer of them but they last longer and hit harder. You send them to do the most critical missions/tasks with the best crews. In real world terms think of them like the F-15/F-16 or F-22/F-35. Both capable but one is more capable and also more expensive. F-16/F-35 are also more well rounded multi-role planes vs their larger siblings that more specialized into Air Superiority. They can all do the same jobs however.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and executed and informatively explained in every way shape and form and detail provided on this subject matter and format on the Interceptor class attack starship's of the Federation via Starfleet and on all of its weapons capacities and all of its various functions and abilities and duties, And I myself find it to be a very wonderfully nice looking ship and very cool design indeed!,👌.
The USS ProtoStar could also be seen as a evolution of the "Patrol Ship" concept. It's slightly smaller than the Interceptor class. Armed well enough, and is adorned with the latest StarFleet tech.
I've always imagined the Defiant class as a Heavy Gunship or Attack Corvette. Small and way over gunned. Conceived as Anti-borg I always found it too small to be effective as it was intended. Once its phaser/ pulse cannon frequencies were sorted it would be just be a small annoying gnat to do any real damage to the Borg. Hell the Defiant would of been destroyed if it wasn't for the Enterprise E to save the day. Even the supposed anti-borg ships were losing the battle, until Jean-Luc arrived. One interesting concept though, I wonder why warp speed ramming impacts wasn't a tactic that was used, going with Worf's concept. Use Warp, drones and slam into it like starwars. I'd imagine anything at super luminal velocities would create apocalyptic damage to any borg ship
... until Jean-Luc arrived in the Anti-Borg battlecruiser. And, to be fair, the existing task force had dealt heavy damage to the Cube, as Data stated. It just wasn't enough to knock it out before the Enterprise arrived.
"Once its phaser/ pulse cannon frequencies were sorted it would be just be a small annoying gnat to do any real damage to the Borg." It's a wasp. One wasp is no threat to a human. A swarm of wasps can sting a man to death. Remember, the Defiants are still Starfleet, and are just as capable of shifting weapon frequencies as any other. In the Battle of Sector 001 we see that the cube has taken serious damage before the Enterprise has gotten there. Starfleet *IS* hurting it, just not fast enough to stop it, and at far too great a cost. There's no sign that the borg are able to adapt to Starfleet weapons in that battle. Defiants were never intended to be lone starships against the borg, or even parts of ragtag fleets. They were designed to swarm enemies. One Defiant is a minor nuisance against a cube at best. What about 50? Ablative armored, heavily armed, and flitting about the enemy while larger ships like Torpedo-boat Akiras pump photons and quantums from a distance. Sure, you'd lose some Defiants... but that would be tough for even the borg to handle. As to your question about warp ramming, it's never a good idea to introduce that in fiction *coughLASTJEDIcough* (even though they did prepare that in "Best of Both Worlds). It become a go-to solution to any threat. If I had to come up with a reason why it wouldn't work just off the top of my head you could say that it's too easy to disrupt a warp bubble. We see that in Deep Space 9 where the Klingons do that against the Dominion, knocking a bunch of their ships out of warp. You might take an enemy by surprise with a ram attempt, but if you don't you're just crashing at sublight.
The Defiant class only requires a crew of 50 & is the true attack ship of the Federation. Instead of building 1 Galaxy class flagship with a crew of 1012, you can build 10 Defiant class ships in its place with fully staffed crews & still have over 500 crew left over for other duties.
Basically, attack ships are torpedo boats, and need to be quickly built and cheap to lose. The Federation tends to favor cruisers that can do anything, not cheap expendable ships
It’s important to remember that the B’rel wasn’t just an ambush ship pushed into an attack ship role. It’s was the ship that saved the Klingon empire. In the post-Praxis empire building and operating battle cruisers enmass was simply too expensive. Fleets of B’rels on the other hand could be built, crewed and operated efficiently and made invading the empire’s territory an extremely costly proposition. By the time of the Dominion war the Klingons were no doubt adept at using the B’rel in all manner of roles.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Come to think of it the B’rel was also the ship that saved the Federation during the Whale Probe crisis and in the wake of the Breen entering war. I imagine it inspires a significant romanticism in both Klingons and Star Fleet personnel. It’s arguably the most consequential ship design in the entire setting.
Brilliant as always. I like your description of how the Defiant works and does not. Whereas the Interceptor class reminds me of PT boat in WWII. They work very well in single patrol - in the right circumstance - but in a formation they can be devastating.
The Defiant the least manouverable attack ship, did we watched the same series with all the flight manouvers they did with it? To beat that the supposedly better ships would need the ability to turn on the spot like a tank.
While I don’t think the Federation ships would’ve been a good fit for it, I can actually imagine the Interceptor-class being employed in Wolf-pack tactics and convoy hunting
Adequate manpower is the Federation's greatest weakness, and Starfleet Academy can only graduate so many ensigns per class. With only a crew of 50 needed, the U.S.S. Defiant is the true attack ship of Starfleet. While not much bigger than a Jem'Hadar attack ship, the Defiant was built to fight & survive, combining the punch of a Galaxy class heavy cruiser with the maneuverability of an Intrepid class starship. Considering it's much smaller ship & crew size to a Galaxy class starship while delivering similar firepower, I call that... a bargain.
The Interceptor is a beautiful ship and I love her. The Federation needs ships of war though definitely in moderation. That said, this is the last ship I would've wanted in large numbers during the Dominion war. Trying to match the Dominion pound for pound was hopeless. Better to swat the bugs than get on their level. The Defiant class was certainly the most important ship of the war for the very reasons you mentioned. If you asked me what ship I would've wanted to have in greater numbers, I'd ask for a ship that can match two or three fighters like heavy destroyers or light cruisers. Anything bigger would turn into a fat prize and a excess dedication of resources to the same scenario. Post war, sure. The attack ship role needs a state of the art fill in. If there's another Dominion war, I wouldn't let these guys out alone at night. They are best effective when they have the initiative.
Well I mean, the Odyssey got took out primarily due to a kamikaze run, it shows the dominion lack of interest in their people because they essentially pump them out factory style.
Instead of the Interceptor maybe refitted Nova class ships would be better. Similar scale but bigger than the defiant and can safely house the Defiant warp core without downsides.
So in other Sci-Fi properties, this would be a "Corvette" while the Defiant would be a "Frigate". This could also be used for Anti-Piracy,. (In Trek, this isn't usually an issue given how Warp Drive works) The image of these ships as basically "Coast Guard Cutters" comes to mind. The hard counter to small, highly maneuverable vessels is usually something that would make its mobility/evasiveness moot. Something along the lines of a"Nova"-like ability or using Antimatter spreads as flak cannons. Up until the Dominion War, the fire control of most Star Trek ships were able to hit anything at any size, since it was all just math and weapons that operated at effectively lightspeed. The tactic of small multiple ships is valid in a universe with directional shielding. Captains can't divert power from a rear shield if one of the three fighters can move to hit that weak spot. I like the vid, just adding my own observations.
Federation did have attack ships - saber class, steamrunner and Akira - to name a few... sure they called them "escorts" (due to federation distaste to create and name proper warships) but that is what they were - attack ships designed to whack the borg - but instead they were used against the Dominion.
The Odyssey galaxy class was surviving despite no shields. Only the ramming to it down. How much intel did the changelings get to know a weak point? The interceptor is very interesting. Would the nacelle struts swing both up and down? Even mid warp flight. How Venom Geek Media 98 posits the warp coils relation to the rest of the ship matters, that makes it very, very interesting.
That's the one very good attribute of the federation as although they do make use of ship types for far long than they should do. That when the situation or threat warrants it, they are able to adapt and create new ships that fulfil the roles require of; like the interceptor class above.
@Venom Geek Media 98: I find your theories about the Interceptor class very interesting. I'm going to flesh this out, in a hardpoint model in Bridge Commander.
It is kind of strange. In their conflicts with the Klingons and Romulans, Star Fleet had to deal with very effective attack ships, but never developed their own.
I do love seeing fanon ships, but I feel compelled to point out there *was* a cheaper, more easily produced, etc etc alternative to the Defiant. It was the Sabre.
One thing I will add is that the smaller fighters only did so well against the larger vessels because the Dominion ships could fire right through their shields as if they weren't there. I think those 3 dominion ships would have gotten their butt's handed to them against a galaxy class ship once the shields had been adapted for Dominion weapons.
The main drawback of the Defiant as an attack ship, seems to be more about range than anything else. Its ability to take hits while delivering devistating firepower overshadows its lack of maneuverability. But not being able to do so far from friendly support and infrastructure is the Defiant's greatest weakness, probably a product of it's anti-Borg design principle. The Intercepter class looks to have some range and independant operation features, noting the aft shuttle bay and variable warp geometry. And not having purely forward firing archs feels like a more generalized combat vessel with more wngagement options.
The issue that the Alpha Quadrant powers had was that the Jem'hadar were disposable along with their fighters. Where every death among the Alpha Quadrant races was a blow, this isn't the same as the Dominion as the Jem'hadar would be fully capable of fighting in 3 days after birth with apparently all the genetic memory needed to function a soldiers and crew. This along with the fact that the Dominion only fielded 3 types of ships allowed them to produce large amounts of ships and personnel in a short amount of time. Every Alpha Quadrant power was playing catch up to the Dominion that was in essence the opposite side of the coin that was the Federation. So attach fighters while great for the Dominion were a horrible idea for the Alpha Quadrant powers as their crews were not seen as disposable with exception being among the Klingons, who viewed death in battle honorable.
so basically the interceptor class would be a WW 2 torpedo boat but on a larger scale. I still prefer the Defiant simply because it could be adapted to mission requirements and still be able to kick the crap out anything getting in its way.
The Defiant class is very much an attack ship but the issue was it was MORE then just an attack ship because the Federation can’t help but to over achieve. The class could operate to defend bases, lease fighter/runabout missions, undergo rescues and operate with larger ships to make them much more lethal combination then either alone. And that is not counting as a Raiding and recon assault. While there were a many made a reason they did not likely make more war the crew size. Defiant class needed about 25-50 but fighters that were half as effective could be operational with what seems to be 5 or less (I got the feeling they used a Runabout like crew of 2 or 3. That personally is why you make fighters because the Federation was being massively outnumbered and overrun. the defiance class Because of crew numbers could not hold the line alone and is likely to just be overwhelmed with numbers (Which we saw often on DS9 that the Defiant was always had more targets to neutralize then they could get too).
Considering how mass produced the Excelsior and Miranda class were, a smaller, modernized version fusing features of these two ships would suit the aggressive recon/attack ships. Consider how many people in the federation would be familiar with the layout, systems, and interface of the Miranda and Excelsior ships. Additionally, retired or separated members of starfleet with experience on Miranda and Excelsior ships could quickly, easily, and simply be pressed into service as instructors and trainers for FNG crews. Plus, I think it could throw off opponents thinking they were going against an old Miranda or Excelsior ship only to be surprised by a barrage of heavy fire from these smaller, faster, more heavily armed vessels.
The interceptor class looks like a design that has a lot more uses in peacetime in terms of being a more balanced design and being able to be out in space for a longer period of time than the defiant which is useful for say patrol work
To put a fine point on it. I love this idea. Yes, I understand Starfleet's main mission is exploration. Sometimes you have to kick a$$. Ummmm, how would the Lower Decks crew handle being in charge of an Interceptor class starship. Mariner as captain. Boimler as 1st officer. Tendi as Chief Medical officer. Rutherford as Chief Engineer. I would like a Caitan as the Security Officer. A dolphin at the helm
For when the galaxy class goes into a known battle it should just separate the saucer section and go for the battle bridge set up. Buckle up families, it's time to die in glorious battle.
The Defiant IS an attack ship. It eas just designed to attack the Borg. Also money and affordability aren't issues with the Federation. They are almost post scarcity.
i am sure the Prometheus was classed as an attack ship, granted it was large for attack ships, granted its more of an attack cruiser than a corvette which most attack ships are but the fact it split into 3 when attacking it kinda turns from 1 cruiser to 3 large attack ships. defiant class is more of a blockade runner/smasher. also with ST where the idea of money is a thing of the past what do you mean by cost? with mass replicators that makes elements from scratch using protons neutrons and electrons cost in materials is a mute point.
Just work the bugs out of the Defiant. Simplify it, work out the propulsion issue, and maybe fit bigger impulse engines to help with maneuverability. And set it up for series production to reduce costs.
i am a torpedo heavy fan, always have been. made mods to the nova deck 4 & 5. got rid of the probes. added more storage space on decks 4 & 5, along with 4 more torpedo launchers. 2 in the lower hull. the other 2 just forward of the reaction control thrustors, for a total of 6. main reason is torpedos are energy effiecent.
You just read off the dimensions, and I'm already declaring this a failure. Bird of Prey - Crew 12 (in the 23rd Century, may be less now) Hideki - Crew 5 Tirethi - Crew 5 Jem'Hadar Attack Ship - Crew 4 As a half-sized Intrepid, this is going to have a crew of 1/3-1/2 the Intrepid, so 50-75. Too many people for a one hit kill.
The Federation´s ideology would never allow them to create an "Attack ship". But purely from the capabilities, the Defiant would be the perfect candidate. Heck, you even have it in your Attack ship sheet. It just never admits to being one, but Sisko and the other designers knew what they were creating. And the DS9 series shows just HOW good the Defiant is in that role, multiple times in fact. And in Star Trek, agility matters not that much as weapons hit pinpoint from ORBIT. Still i have to say, the Interceptor class looks great and makes sense, nice job there, whoever came up with that idea.
Cant say I agree the Defiant is less manoeuvrable, the ship is shown to easily able to keep up with other attack ships in DS9 sometimes even out manoeuvring them on screen.
with it's size im honestly thinking Corvette classification real world example would be the Visby class, rather then the flower class which is a slow anti submarine vessel
Wonder if this was mass produced during the Ent-C's Yesterday's Enterprise alternate timeline as a stripped down Nova class heavy corvette. Imagine a squadron of them each being able to cloak, initially based on Kirk's BOP as well as having the standard photon/plasma(Romulan) torpedo launcher tech. Since it''s bigger than a BOP, it could have two of the Plasma torpedo launcher tubes that can fire forward&aft, one attached to each nacelles since it won't have that variable warp pylons. Can function as a heavy plasma mortar and pulse plasma torpedo launcher. Also imagine if Kirk had this, he'd use this to travel back in time.
Loved this Federation's version of BOP design. It has the space to have the Klingon's plasma/torpedo launcher. Thought that if this was developed in the Delta Quadrant by the Voyager crew, it would be a rebuilt Nova class(Equinox) with a Hirogen Hunter ship especially with the Hirogen weapons. I always assumed that the Hirogen not only used their Transceiver Communication Relay Network to spy on their prey but they also used it to travel between each nodes by something similar to a graviton catapult or geodesic fold that doesn't melt its crew. As an alternative to the Interceptor class or Fed BOP type ship, there's the Wallace class escort. Just needs extra armor&weapons. Post Borg Invasion of Sector001, liked the original version of the Saber class as an attack ship instead of a research/utility light ship like for the Starfleet Corps of Engineers. Also what about a squadron of the Interceptor class using their tractor beams&warp fields to do a Gungnir maneuver by carrying a coronal mass ejection&dragging that stellar plasma in warp and dumping that mass of plasma to a battlefield like a tsunami. Imagine some squadrons coming from different vectors dumping a mass of CME plasma in warp to crash into the Dominion/Cardassian lines like a tsunami. Smaller Jem'Hadar&Hideki ships would be destroyed by that wave of coronal plasma while the larger enemy ships' would be weaken. This will also flood the battlespace to expose any cloaked mines or ships. Actually this would be a great tactic to use against the DS9's wormhole or Chintoka minefields
I know this video is on teh Interceptor, but I would like to propose a different perspective on the Defiant. The Defiant is a pure attack ship, but one specialize for the borg. Attack ships ae analogous to PT boats (or WW II) or fast missile patrol boats of today. Their strategy involves distributed firepower because the enemy can very easily destroy even the most powerful of Federation ships. By distributing the firepower among many small ships, teh loss of one ship does not result in the loss all your firepower. Also, while teh borg seems to have very powerful weapons, the number of targets they can train on at any one time is limited. Of course, you still need a ship that can survive at least a few seconds when captured by a borg tractor beam (which and altornat attraction and repulsion to shake a vessel apart) and it needs to carry weapons sufficiently powerful enough to do more than annoy a Borg cube. Ergo, the Defiant. In many ways, the Defiant is basically a destroyer miniaturized. It needs to be highly automated because there is no room for living quarters for a large crew. There are no facilities (sci labs, holodecks, extra storage, etc.) that is not geared toward fighting the Borg. However, it retains the firepower and the armor (concentrated to protect a smaller ship) of a destroyer. Whereas other Federation ships operate at 90% to minimize wear and tear for a prolong service life, the Defiant sesms to be constantly operating at 120%, much like a PT boat or modern missile boat. Their mission is not to survive, but simply to get off all their torpedoes/missiles before getting destroyed. Of course, when the opponent is not the Borg, some of its attack boat characteristics gets lost.
"A Jack of All Trades, Master of none, but often times better than a Master of One." The Jack may not be the best at any one thing, but can be used for anything. The Master of One is practically useless aside from their specialty. So it is hardly an insult, for those who know.
Starfleet really dropped the ball by not trimming down all the extra mass on the Mirandas to make a more compact version or just throwing the Defiant plans at the engineers and order "Make this mass-producible."
Using Birds of Prey as attack ships might have gone back to TNG since from the sounds of things the Klingons were being a pin in the Romulans' backsides back when they were mostly using Birds of Prey.
Wasn’t the Defiant said in the shows as a cheap ship to produce in mass quickly? Though the defiant was a pain to keep from tearing itself apart, so bad for green crews. And agree Defiants are designed as single purpose Borg killer.
A jack of all trades is a master of none, but it is far preferable than a master of one trade when you need someone who can do lots of things even if not at master level.
I've always loved this particular fan created vessel... Starfleet had really let most of its smaller classes to rot over the years leading into the TNG era. I agree in your assessment in attack vessels. I would go so far as to say the Federation really should have concentrated in producing more war oriented smaller classes of ships as soon as they thought they would be in a serious war with someone whom could take out a Galaxy class with 3 ships under 100m long. I do disagree with some of your views on the defiant. As the federation does seem to have been able to produce more of them given the one episode we saw on Valiant... Ships on lower end of size spectrum (
Wasnt the entire point of the Defiant class to have large numbers of heavily armed warships to swarm the enemy? Sounds like a failed design if thats the case.
The Federation found out the hard and costly way of realizing that they can’t be pushing the Exploration and Scientists Directive anymore and needed to go back to being a Dedicated War Fighting Military Force again. They needed Soldiers not Scientists. That was the Federation’s problem for 100’s of years.
However the Lakota refit proven that the defiant isn't necessary and just a massive waste of resources instead of refitting other older ships like also the Miranda class. If I was in charge I would have the defiant scrapped, its blueprints destroyed. Also we learned that a Galaxy X class would be better than alot of the ships we seen. Shame its an alternate universe ship. The war would have gone differently if the federation had several Galaxy X Class ships.
The Interceptor appears to suffer from a being the type of Multi-role vessel that has no clear position in the fleet. It is the willful arrogance of Starfleet to build a smaller explorer vessel. During the Dominion War, the Interceptor would certainly be outfitted for combat. But as soon a the war is over the ships would be disarmed and used for explorers. Considering that threats and dangers can literally jump out of no where without warning, it is unwise to have effective combat vessels disarmed just because the skies are currently clear. And we all know this will happen because "How dare Starfleet be prepared for Hell and High Water". The Interceptor would do best being in retinue of a larger command ship, flying in formation with a Galaxy, Sovereign, or Odyssey class, utilizing the Command/Mother ship's facilities to extend the smaller ships over all range and endurance. This also extends the defensive field of the Command/Mother ship as the interceptor can INTERCEPT incoming threats or at least seeing coming patrolling just beyond the Command/mother ship's sensor range but still within communications range. This is something already done with USN Carrier fleets with aircraft extending well beyond the carrier fleet's range to see.
I always thought it was ridiculous that the federation never had an attack craft. Small crew high damage output. The Romulans commented on the manpower issues the federation had during the dominion war. Maybe don’t take officers with six year degrees and put them on a firing line? A ship like a “bird of prey”. Minimal crew and endurance, just pure offense.
The Interceptor-class is what happens when a Defiant and an Intrepid love each other very much....
It's funny when people say "jack of all trades, master of none" because there's another part of that saying; "Better than just one"
Which in reality we have found to be not true as proof by the countless specialist pieces of equipment because general equipment won't simply do the task well and is part of why the rest of the phrase has been somewhat forgotten
The original was actually just to call someone a jack of all trades. Master of none was implied. But one of the earliest times it's seen used is as a way to call a playwright a hack. Which playwright? William Shakespeare.
Practically speaking, there is need for both generalists and specialists. Generalists have a certain cross-disciplinary perspective that's good for leadership, problem solving, task flexibility, and innovation. But they're never as good at anything as a a specialist at what the specialist does.
There's room for both.
Better than none..
I know how to do some things, and I believe one of those I have lots of experience and I love it and... It's not my first source of income 😔
From what I hear, the original phrase was "jack of all trades, master of one"
Jack of all trades master of none, better than a master of one
"But the Federation doesn't believe in Warsh..."
*Interceptor comes into the room, slits throat, runs out and acts like it did some anomaly research*
Have you seriously watched all of DS9?? - The Defiant is an extremely manueverable and evasive ship.
Not to meantion it being “expensive”. I’m pretty sure it was meantioned as modular and quick to build as meant to swarm the borg.
Only thing to make it expensive would be the ablative armour
For impulse speeds, Defiant's "pattern omega" or Sisko's manual control i.e. dependent on the pilot's skills.
Above Warp 9, Defiant's weapons are not functional.
The CG guys went way overboard with the large-scale Dominion War battles, and depicting the Defiant as a fighter is just one big problem of many. I think you can pretty safely ignore any of the visual representation of the battles as schlocky action scenes.
the thing is that realistically the defiant class would have been the attack ship of the federation, it was cannonically designed as a swarming close in attack ship andcould have very easily been modified from the prototype for series production. things like the interceptor class while well conceived and a very nice looking design are post hoc rationalisations for the showrunners choice to not use the defiant class in large numbers on screen so as to not dilute its value as a hero ship, this is one of the areas where babylon 5 handled it so much better introducing the first whitestar as the hero ship for the station and first of its kind, the harbinger of things to come, but revealing later that the minbari had been mass producing them for the rangers after the prototype proved successful
Except it did actually lower the value of the original and ran into the issue of they are only as good as your plot armor
Agreed. A pack of Defiant class ships accomplish the same thing. Far more nimble and better armed.
@@gizmo8760 or or and hear me out just retrofit the excelsiors and mirandas up to current specs and pump out them fucking New Orleans classes like they were going out of style
@@michaelkeha
In universe, the Excelsior and Miranda were both designed 100 years ago, literally, and were not designed for the roles required nor could they be parleyed into those roles. The New Orleans class was little more than a missile cruiser when combat fighters (Attack Ships) were needed.
the defiant class is a terrible star fleet ship. I love it but its crew accommodations are mediocre your in space in basically a Cold War sub, no holodecks to get your mind off of war limited medical facilities
I dont understand why you say the Defiant is not maneuverable. In the shows it is seen manuevering just as fast and tight as Birds of Prey and Jem Hadar attack ships.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing and I think it is larger then the size shown, its also very fast at impulse. Also the Defiant by the last season of Voyager was way more common which means easier to build.
Tighter than BoP, really.
The Defiant is the perfect Federation warship, honestly.
I assume he means independent of large fleet action. Especially in regards to Star Trek: Legacy video games.
Late post, but it might be because these ds9 defiant was tuned, considerably from the base model, and most of those tunings were to improve engine performance and maneuverability.
The Interceptor class: A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.
The full quote is quite enlightening.
I was about to mention this
Except in military terms specialist equipment is more valuable and more common place than generalist gear so not really
@@michaelkeha You are correct. However, think about the F-15, F-16, F-10, and F-35. While all of them are specifically military aircraft, all of them are able to fill multiple roles. Something that can do one thing with peerless capability is a good thing, but that does not mean that you cannot make devices, weapons, and vehicles that are better than they otherwise would be if made more specialized. One example of a hyper-specialized aircraft that performes with enormous effectiveness is the A-10 Thunderbolt. It is extremely specialized in ground attack, but because the US has such a large military, they can afford to support such systems.
@@michaelkeha Also keep in mind that the only absolute statement in the saying is that a jack of all trades is a master of none. The ultimate meaning of the phrase I think is that being so specialized that you lose all flexibility is generally a bad idea, but that such people or devices still can be helpful.
@@spatialgaming1967 The counter point is things like the DMRs, Sniper rifles, breaching equipment, bridge layers, air defence systems etc etc there is far more specialist gear in a military than general gear because there are far far more niches that need filling
The Interceptor would have been invaluable after the war as well. After a big war there are always groups that would try to capitalize on all the instability, the variability of the design would make it perfect as a Coast Guard type of roll.
Yep a key element of peacekeeping is presence
Role, not roll
I see them as ideal patrol and scout vessels. They’ve small enough to be relatively sneaky, and planetfall ais a very useful feature.
You know what, I just love the way Interceptor looks. She looks sleek, nimble, and mean looking all the same. Exactly what an attack ship should be, no?
Yay for fanverse shout outs! Love seeing the underloved works get a spotlight, especially from you!
i can see it being crewed more by Starfleet marines or more Tactical trained personnel it's small size/sensor signature and atmospheric/landing ability would make it hard to detect, perfect as a fast deployment vehicle for a commando team or Anti piracy security
It was love at first sight, before the description even started!
The Defiant is an attack ship, but it’s a heavy attack ship purpose built to slug it out with larger and more powerful vessels. It just got pressed into service as a line breaker during the Dominion War because of its combination of speed, firepower and survivability.
It was also a stark departure from Khitomer Accords 24th century ship design. The Defiant class dispensed with the usual "peace ships" of its area, a deliberate philosophy to show other Alpha/Beta powers that the UFP was committed to its play-nice diplomacy. At the same time, it boasted Galaxy-class cruisers which only a fool would mistake for a science ship. However, they got away with it because she wasn't a dedicated warship.
Yeah most other attack ships don't worry about survivability that's where the anti borg DNA comes in.
I don't think it's a mistake to design warships to the 'Borg Standard', if anything that's a good idea, what is a mistake is to not learn lessons from the prototype and adjust the mainline ships for mass production and crewing while also adjusting the academy curriculum to cover it's newfound shortcomings. After all, if one ship design comes out needing a higher standard of competence then what does that say about the future? It may of course say nothing, but better to account for such a trend and have it vanish than not and have it continue.
5:07 - what would mass production of the Defiant be too expensive? When Sisko first brought it DS9 to make contact with the Dominion before the war, he, then later Bashir, remarked about its very spartan design(Bashir indicated that it did not have a sick bay).
It wouldn't be expensive to mass produce. The only reason we didn't see Defiant all over the place was because it was the hero ship of DS9.
I assume in material, the Defiant is supposed to be engines, guns and armor. And ablative are is ment to boil off, and the Defiant's cannons burn through some of it's parts during excessive combat. There is a ceremony placing the parts on a wall in the mess when Sisko is promoted to Ross' adjutant. That where I think he is coming from.
Ablative armor and quantum torpedoes are EXPENSIVE
All the anti Borg had had that too and were a lot of those.@@geekiusmaximus1882
I'd describe the Defiant as a gunship.
I'd describe her as the embodiment of Ben Sisko's long held rage
Pocket Battleship.
@@nunya3163 Panzerschiffe
Siskos pimp hand
@nunya3163 A pocket battleship isn't a good analogy to the Defiant. Pocket battleships were almost as large as regular battleships, but they were more lightly armored so that they could be faster.
Notable ship names during the Dominion war.
USS. Spitfire ( Interceptor class)
USS Hurricane ( Defiant class )
USS Mustang ( Interceptor class )
USS Lancaster ( Akira class )
Dominion forces pull a quote from Monty python "Run away! Run away!"
USS Thunderbolt
USS Lightening
USS KittyHawk
USS WarHawk
@@douglasmiller8607 Legends one and all!
So basically, the interceptor class is an intermediate between the Defiant, Intrepid, Nova, and Saber classes. I can see it doing well.
Also, the Defiant class is likely more agile than not just the Hideki, but also the Romulan scout.
the defiant could turn on a dime and was pretty nimble. more a gunship than an a attack ship, i see the defiant as something similar to ww1 british monitors .
Think of the Defiant Class as a Paladin Knight, but carrying Multiple Gatling Guns that can turn reasonably well.
Basically, a Brock Lesnar type if you're into Combat Sports or Pro Wrestling.
Ridiculously Fast & Agile for it's size, over-powered, overtly durable.
Starfleet once again having to relearn old lessons again _the hard way._
If they had kept the Akayzi class's niche updated with each new generation of ship paradigms, Starfleet would have been far better prepared and just more effective on a day to day basis.
They needed a small planetary landing capable counterpart to the Bird of Prey to act as a patrol ship and light general duties ship.
And be cheap enough that Federation space was swarming with them. So that colonies and stations have a quick response helper for everything from raiders to weird phenomenon, to light cargo duties.
And all the capital ships have a screening vessel and escort in case they run into weird space phenomenon of the week.
No doubt Starfleet would retire the Interceptor class a few decades after the Dominion war anyway.
I've always seen the problem of "only a battlecruiser can hold a M/AM core". In TOS, that antimatter design was huge. By TNG, it was not much better. You could not put a M/AM reactor on a Runabout, or in a Galaxy class saucer section. Fusion reactors didn't produce enough power, yet, in TOS, to warp space past Warp 3, or power a ship-sized phaser bank for more than a split second. By DS9 and VOY, M/AM designs were finally small enough to even consider a Defiant, or an Interceptor. Runabouts were the cutting-edge of power vs. warp nacelle design on miniaturization.
I wonder if the old Destroyers in the Federation could be upgunned as very large gunship.
I like the way you describe how these ships fit in. Although I like both of your channels, your collaboration with Drachinifel really was a highlight. This is a really beautiful design, it has a very clear design lineage. It also fits in well with the lore and would be believable as a cost effective design for the role it played
Love your passion for the Star Trek Universe brother, be well.
Been waiting patiently for an Interceptor video. Was shocked that was also about Attach Ship type vessels as the Interceptor seemed more like a simpler Intrepid Class Starship, but fleshing out the use and role of Attack Ships helped understand better a few battles from the Dominion War.
Yeah some cast it as that but you already have the new Orleans...
@venomgeekmedia9886 I've pictured the Interceptor as a wartime Intrepid because of a couple starships (Elkins and Yeager) use intact Intrepid saucer sections.
I think you might’ve slept on the Defiant too hard. I agree that the Interceptor was probably more versatile outside of combat. It had more internal space for equipment and higher warp speeds.
However, in combat I don’t agree that Defiant was slower and less maneuverable. Everything we’ve seen shows it just as capable as other attack ships. In addition, it had twice the firepower and significantly better durability.
I would frame them more as a high/low mix of Attack ships due to the cost of Defiant. There are fewer of them but they last longer and hit harder. You send them to do the most critical missions/tasks with the best crews.
In real world terms think of them like the F-15/F-16 or F-22/F-35. Both capable but one is more capable and also more expensive. F-16/F-35 are also more well rounded multi-role planes vs their larger siblings that more specialized into Air Superiority. They can all do the same jobs however.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and executed and informatively explained in every way shape and form and detail provided on this subject matter and format on the Interceptor class attack starship's of the Federation via Starfleet and on all of its weapons capacities and all of its various functions and abilities and duties, And I myself find it to be a very wonderfully nice looking ship and very cool design indeed!,👌.
The USS ProtoStar could also be seen as a evolution of the "Patrol Ship" concept.
It's slightly smaller than the Interceptor class.
Armed well enough, and is adorned with the latest StarFleet tech.
looks like one of the 3 tiny ships that got vaped effortlessly by the Borg Cube in the Best of Both Worlds part 2.
The saw jack of all trades originally was master of 1. It was inserted later. This ship seems to fit the original.
I've always imagined the Defiant class as a Heavy Gunship or Attack Corvette. Small and way over gunned. Conceived as Anti-borg I always found it too small to be effective as it was intended.
Once its phaser/ pulse cannon frequencies were sorted it would be just be a small annoying gnat to do any real damage to the Borg. Hell the Defiant would of been destroyed if it wasn't for the Enterprise E to save the day. Even the supposed anti-borg ships were losing the battle, until Jean-Luc arrived.
One interesting concept though,
I wonder why warp speed ramming impacts wasn't a tactic that was used, going with Worf's concept. Use Warp, drones and slam into it like starwars.
I'd imagine anything at super luminal velocities would create apocalyptic damage to any borg ship
That’s a good idea!
... until Jean-Luc arrived in the Anti-Borg battlecruiser. And, to be fair, the existing task force had dealt heavy damage to the Cube, as Data stated. It just wasn't enough to knock it out before the Enterprise arrived.
"Once its phaser/ pulse cannon frequencies were sorted it would be just be a small annoying gnat to do any real damage to the Borg."
It's a wasp. One wasp is no threat to a human. A swarm of wasps can sting a man to death. Remember, the Defiants are still Starfleet, and are just as capable of shifting weapon frequencies as any other. In the Battle of Sector 001 we see that the cube has taken serious damage before the Enterprise has gotten there. Starfleet *IS* hurting it, just not fast enough to stop it, and at far too great a cost. There's no sign that the borg are able to adapt to Starfleet weapons in that battle.
Defiants were never intended to be lone starships against the borg, or even parts of ragtag fleets. They were designed to swarm enemies. One Defiant is a minor nuisance against a cube at best. What about 50? Ablative armored, heavily armed, and flitting about the enemy while larger ships like Torpedo-boat Akiras pump photons and quantums from a distance. Sure, you'd lose some Defiants... but that would be tough for even the borg to handle.
As to your question about warp ramming, it's never a good idea to introduce that in fiction *coughLASTJEDIcough* (even though they did prepare that in "Best of Both Worlds). It become a go-to solution to any threat. If I had to come up with a reason why it wouldn't work just off the top of my head you could say that it's too easy to disrupt a warp bubble. We see that in Deep Space 9 where the Klingons do that against the Dominion, knocking a bunch of their ships out of warp. You might take an enemy by surprise with a ram attempt, but if you don't you're just crashing at sublight.
The Defiant class only requires a crew of 50 & is the true attack ship of the Federation. Instead of building 1 Galaxy class flagship with a crew of 1012, you can build 10 Defiant class ships in its place with fully staffed crews & still have over 500 crew left over for other duties.
Basically, attack ships are torpedo boats, and need to be quickly built and cheap to lose. The Federation tends to favor cruisers that can do anything, not cheap expendable ships
The defiant is very very maneuverable
And the words you were searching for was a front line breaching attack vessel..
Did you actually watch ds9?
Exactly! I was thinking the same thing as there is not other large ship out there that can outmanuever the Defiant.
It’s important to remember that the B’rel wasn’t just an ambush ship pushed into an attack ship role. It’s was the ship that saved the Klingon empire. In the post-Praxis empire building and operating battle cruisers enmass was simply too expensive. Fleets of B’rels on the other hand could be built, crewed and operated efficiently and made invading the empire’s territory an extremely costly proposition. By the time of the Dominion war the Klingons were no doubt adept at using the B’rel in all manner of roles.
Oh absolutely the B'rel was a perfect ship for a budget military engaged in territorial defence
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Come to think of it the B’rel was also the ship that saved the Federation during the Whale Probe crisis and in the wake of the Breen entering war. I imagine it inspires a significant romanticism in both Klingons and Star Fleet personnel. It’s arguably the most consequential ship design in the entire setting.
Brilliant as always. I like your description of how the Defiant works and does not.
Whereas the Interceptor class reminds me of PT boat in WWII. They work very well in single patrol - in the right circumstance - but in a formation they can be devastating.
Would have loved to have seen more ships like this being used by the federation.
The interceptor is basically the flanker that the bird of prey needed and the covering force for Mirandas and nova needed
The Defiant the least manouverable attack ship, did we watched the same series with all the flight manouvers they did with it? To beat that the supposedly better ships would need the ability to turn on the spot like a tank.
While I don’t think the Federation ships would’ve been a good fit for it, I can actually imagine the Interceptor-class being employed in Wolf-pack tactics and convoy hunting
Adequate manpower is the Federation's greatest weakness, and Starfleet Academy can only graduate so many ensigns per class. With only a crew of 50 needed, the U.S.S. Defiant is the true attack ship of Starfleet. While not much bigger than a Jem'Hadar attack ship, the Defiant was built to fight & survive, combining the punch of a Galaxy class heavy cruiser with the maneuverability of an Intrepid class starship. Considering it's much smaller ship & crew size to a Galaxy class starship while delivering similar firepower, I call that... a bargain.
I'd like to see more on an interceptor class. Interesting concept
This seems like a pretty awesome little ship.
Would like to see that ( attack ship )
Hugging a huge dominion vessel as only the defiant class was capable of pulling off
The Interceptor is a beautiful ship and I love her. The Federation needs ships of war though definitely in moderation.
That said, this is the last ship I would've wanted in large numbers during the Dominion war. Trying to match the Dominion pound for pound was hopeless. Better to swat the bugs than get on their level. The Defiant class was certainly the most important ship of the war for the very reasons you mentioned. If you asked me what ship I would've wanted to have in greater numbers, I'd ask for a ship that can match two or three fighters like heavy destroyers or light cruisers. Anything bigger would turn into a fat prize and a excess dedication of resources to the same scenario.
Post war, sure. The attack ship role needs a state of the art fill in. If there's another Dominion war, I wouldn't let these guys out alone at night. They are best effective when they have the initiative.
Well I mean, the Odyssey got took out primarily due to a kamikaze run, it shows the dominion lack of interest in their people because they essentially pump them out factory style.
Instead of the Interceptor maybe refitted Nova class ships would be better. Similar scale but bigger than the defiant and can safely house the Defiant warp core without downsides.
So in other Sci-Fi properties, this would be a "Corvette" while the Defiant would be a "Frigate". This could also be used for Anti-Piracy,. (In Trek, this isn't usually an issue given how Warp Drive works) The image of these ships as basically "Coast Guard Cutters" comes to mind.
The hard counter to small, highly maneuverable vessels is usually something that would make its mobility/evasiveness moot. Something along the lines of a"Nova"-like ability or using Antimatter spreads as flak cannons.
Up until the Dominion War, the fire control of most Star Trek ships were able to hit anything at any size, since it was all just math and weapons that operated at effectively lightspeed.
The tactic of small multiple ships is valid in a universe with directional shielding. Captains can't divert power from a rear shield if one of the three fighters can move to hit that weak spot.
I like the vid, just adding my own observations.
I like this. As a matter of fact, I'm going to incorporate The Interceptor class into the sStar Trek Novel I'm working on. Thank you for this.
I'm so glad to see this; I saw the specs on this ship some time ago, and thought it needed some fleshing out. Thanks!
Federation did have attack ships - saber class, steamrunner and Akira - to name a few... sure they called them "escorts" (due to federation distaste to create and name proper warships) but that is what they were - attack ships designed to whack the borg - but instead they were used against the Dominion.
The Odyssey galaxy class was surviving despite no shields. Only the ramming to it down. How much intel did the changelings get to know a weak point?
The interceptor is very interesting. Would the nacelle struts swing both up and down? Even mid warp flight. How Venom Geek Media 98 posits the warp coils relation to the rest of the ship matters, that makes it very, very interesting.
Loved playing with the 3d model of the interceptor years ago when it was called the milnium class
That's the one very good attribute of the federation as although they do make use of ship types for far long than they should do. That when the situation or threat warrants it, they are able to adapt and create new ships that fulfil the roles require of; like the interceptor class above.
@Venom Geek Media 98: I find your theories about the Interceptor class very interesting. I'm going to flesh this out, in a hardpoint model in Bridge Commander.
It is kind of strange. In their conflicts with the Klingons and Romulans, Star Fleet had to deal with very effective attack ships, but never developed their own.
The Interceptor is absolutely gorgeous. It has the elegance of the Intrepid and the sleekness of the Sovereign.
I do love seeing fanon ships, but I feel compelled to point out there *was* a cheaper, more easily produced, etc etc alternative to the Defiant. It was the Sabre.
One thing I will add is that the smaller fighters only did so well against the larger vessels because the Dominion ships could fire right through their shields as if they weren't there. I think those 3 dominion ships would have gotten their butt's handed to them against a galaxy class ship once the shields had been adapted for Dominion weapons.
The main drawback of the Defiant as an attack ship, seems to be more about range than anything else. Its ability to take hits while delivering devistating firepower overshadows its lack of maneuverability. But not being able to do so far from friendly support and infrastructure is the Defiant's greatest weakness, probably a product of it's anti-Borg design principle. The Intercepter class looks to have some range and independant operation features, noting the aft shuttle bay and variable warp geometry. And not having purely forward firing archs feels like a more generalized combat vessel with more wngagement options.
The issue that the Alpha Quadrant powers had was that the Jem'hadar were disposable along with their fighters. Where every death among the Alpha Quadrant races was a blow, this isn't the same as the Dominion as the Jem'hadar would be fully capable of fighting in 3 days after birth with apparently all the genetic memory needed to function a soldiers and crew. This along with the fact that the Dominion only fielded 3 types of ships allowed them to produce large amounts of ships and personnel in a short amount of time. Every Alpha Quadrant power was playing catch up to the Dominion that was in essence the opposite side of the coin that was the Federation. So attach fighters while great for the Dominion were a horrible idea for the Alpha Quadrant powers as their crews were not seen as disposable with exception being among the Klingons, who viewed death in battle honorable.
That's a awesome design a small kick ass ship just like the defiant class
so basically the interceptor class would be a WW 2 torpedo boat but on a larger scale. I still prefer the Defiant simply because it could be adapted to mission requirements and still be able to kick the crap out anything getting in its way.
The Defiant class is very much an attack ship but the issue was it was MORE then just an attack ship because the Federation can’t help but to over achieve.
The class could operate to defend bases, lease fighter/runabout missions, undergo rescues and operate with larger ships to make them much more lethal combination then either alone. And that is not counting as a Raiding and recon assault.
While there were a many made a reason they did not likely make more war the crew size. Defiant class needed about 25-50 but fighters that were half as effective could be operational with what seems to be 5 or less (I got the feeling they used a Runabout like crew of 2 or 3. That personally is why you make fighters because the Federation was being massively outnumbered and overrun. the defiance class Because of crew numbers could not hold the line alone and is likely to just be overwhelmed with numbers (Which we saw often on DS9 that the Defiant was always had more targets to neutralize then they could get too).
Love it
Considering how mass produced the Excelsior and Miranda class were, a smaller, modernized version fusing features of these two ships would suit the aggressive recon/attack ships.
Consider how many people in the federation would be familiar with the layout, systems, and interface of the Miranda and Excelsior ships.
Additionally, retired or separated members of starfleet with experience on Miranda and Excelsior ships could quickly, easily, and simply be pressed into service as instructors and trainers for FNG crews.
Plus, I think it could throw off opponents thinking they were going against an old Miranda or Excelsior ship only to be surprised by a barrage of heavy fire from these smaller, faster, more heavily armed vessels.
The interceptor class looks like a design that has a lot more uses in peacetime in terms of being a more balanced design and being able to be out in space for a longer period of time than the defiant which is useful for say patrol work
To put a fine point on it. I love this idea. Yes, I understand Starfleet's main mission is exploration. Sometimes you have to kick a$$. Ummmm, how would the Lower Decks crew handle being in charge of an Interceptor class starship. Mariner as captain. Boimler as 1st officer. Tendi as Chief Medical officer. Rutherford as Chief Engineer. I would like a Caitan as the Security Officer. A dolphin at the helm
For when the galaxy class goes into a known battle it should just separate the saucer section and go for the battle bridge set up. Buckle up families, it's time to die in glorious battle.
The Defiant IS an attack ship. It eas just designed to attack the Borg. Also money and affordability aren't issues with the Federation. They are almost post scarcity.
the interceptor is good enough and in war good enough is perfect
i am sure the Prometheus was classed as an attack ship, granted it was large for attack ships, granted its more of an attack cruiser than a corvette which most attack ships are but the fact it split into 3 when attacking it kinda turns from 1 cruiser to 3 large attack ships. defiant class is more of a blockade runner/smasher.
also with ST where the idea of money is a thing of the past what do you mean by cost? with mass replicators that makes elements from scratch using protons neutrons and electrons cost in materials is a mute point.
Just work the bugs out of the Defiant. Simplify it, work out the propulsion issue, and maybe fit bigger impulse engines to help with maneuverability. And set it up for series production to reduce costs.
i am a torpedo heavy fan, always have been. made mods to the nova deck 4 & 5. got rid of the probes. added more storage space on decks 4 & 5, along with 4 more torpedo launchers. 2 in the lower hull. the other 2 just forward of the reaction control thrustors, for a total of 6. main reason is torpedos are energy effiecent.
You just read off the dimensions, and I'm already declaring this a failure.
Bird of Prey - Crew 12 (in the 23rd Century, may be less now)
Hideki - Crew 5
Tirethi - Crew 5
Jem'Hadar Attack Ship - Crew 4
As a half-sized Intrepid, this is going to have a crew of 1/3-1/2 the Intrepid, so 50-75. Too many people for a one hit kill.
Well a BOP would generally be 36 a full hideki would be like 50. But your getting a lot more capability with this larger crew
The Federation´s ideology would never allow them to create an "Attack ship". But purely from the capabilities, the Defiant would be the perfect candidate.
Heck, you even have it in your Attack ship sheet. It just never admits to being one, but Sisko and the other designers knew what they were creating.
And the DS9 series shows just HOW good the Defiant is in that role, multiple times in fact. And in Star Trek, agility matters not that much as weapons hit pinpoint from ORBIT.
Still i have to say, the Interceptor class looks great and makes sense, nice job there, whoever came up with that idea.
Cant say I agree the Defiant is less manoeuvrable, the ship is shown to easily able to keep up with other attack ships in DS9 sometimes even out manoeuvring them on screen.
with it's size im honestly thinking Corvette classification real world example would be the Visby class, rather then the flower class which is a slow anti submarine vessel
Wonder if this was mass produced during the Ent-C's Yesterday's Enterprise alternate timeline as a stripped down Nova class heavy corvette. Imagine a squadron of them each being able to cloak, initially based on Kirk's BOP as well as having the standard photon/plasma(Romulan) torpedo launcher tech. Since it''s bigger than a BOP, it could have two of the Plasma torpedo launcher tubes that can fire forward&aft, one attached to each nacelles since it won't have that variable warp pylons. Can function as a heavy plasma mortar and pulse plasma torpedo launcher. Also imagine if Kirk had this, he'd use this to travel back in time.
Loved this Federation's version of BOP design. It has the space to have the Klingon's plasma/torpedo launcher. Thought that if this was developed in the Delta Quadrant by the Voyager crew, it would be a rebuilt Nova class(Equinox) with a Hirogen Hunter ship especially with the Hirogen weapons. I always assumed that the Hirogen not only used their Transceiver Communication Relay Network to spy on their prey but they also used it to travel between each nodes by something similar to a graviton catapult or geodesic fold that doesn't melt its crew.
As an alternative to the Interceptor class or Fed BOP type ship, there's the Wallace class escort. Just needs extra armor&weapons. Post Borg Invasion of Sector001, liked the original version of the Saber class as an attack ship instead of a research/utility light ship like for the Starfleet Corps of Engineers.
Also what about a squadron of the Interceptor class using their tractor beams&warp fields to do a Gungnir maneuver by carrying a coronal mass ejection&dragging that stellar plasma in warp and dumping that mass of plasma to a battlefield like a tsunami. Imagine some squadrons coming from different vectors dumping a mass of CME plasma in warp to crash into the Dominion/Cardassian lines like a tsunami. Smaller Jem'Hadar&Hideki ships would be destroyed by that wave of coronal plasma while the larger enemy ships' would be weaken. This will also flood the battlespace to expose any cloaked mines or ships. Actually this would be a great tactic to use against the DS9's wormhole or Chintoka minefields
I know this video is on teh Interceptor, but I would like to propose a different perspective on the Defiant.
The Defiant is a pure attack ship, but one specialize for the borg. Attack ships ae analogous to PT boats (or WW II) or fast missile patrol boats of today. Their strategy involves distributed firepower because the enemy can very easily destroy even the most powerful of Federation ships. By distributing the firepower among many small ships, teh loss of one ship does not result in the loss all your firepower. Also, while teh borg seems to have very powerful weapons, the number of targets they can train on at any one time is limited. Of course, you still need a ship that can survive at least a few seconds when captured by a borg tractor beam (which and altornat attraction and repulsion to shake a vessel apart) and it needs to carry weapons sufficiently powerful enough to do more than annoy a Borg cube. Ergo, the Defiant. In many ways, the Defiant is basically a destroyer miniaturized. It needs to be highly automated because there is no room for living quarters for a large crew. There are no facilities (sci labs, holodecks, extra storage, etc.) that is not geared toward fighting the Borg. However, it retains the firepower and the armor (concentrated to protect a smaller ship) of a destroyer. Whereas other Federation ships operate at 90% to minimize wear and tear for a prolong service life, the Defiant sesms to be constantly operating at 120%, much like a PT boat or modern missile boat. Their mission is not to survive, but simply to get off all their torpedoes/missiles before getting destroyed.
Of course, when the opponent is not the Borg, some of its attack boat characteristics gets lost.
"A Jack of All Trades, Master of none, but often times better than a Master of One." The Jack may not be the best at any one thing, but can be used for anything. The Master of One is practically useless aside from their specialty. So it is hardly an insult, for those who know.
Love all your videos.
Only a battlecruiser could hold a M/AM core in TOS. Getting smaller than an Intrepid-class was really needing miniaturization in M/AM design.
That's the best looking ship I've seen by far !!!!!!!!!!
You basely companied the defiant to the King Tagger tank it would be a good analogy
Top down view of that ship is just MEAN. Vicious looking.
The defiant class WAS the attack ship. Limited crew, heavily armed and armored fast and manuverable this isn't brain surgery she was designed to FIGHT
Starfleet really dropped the ball by not trimming down all the extra mass on the Mirandas to make a more compact version or just throwing the Defiant plans at the engineers and order "Make this mass-producible."
I like the use of the word "Bespoke" there Venom.
thought you might ;)
I always have wondered why in the galaxy a Defiant class was used to train cafets when Defiants needed an experienced crew to be usedpeoperly.
That's red squad for you... but yeah a saber would have been better
The Defiant was a prototype. The following production models fixed it's issues.
You might consider an overview of the DILIGENT-class which is multi-role destroyer escort...and a fan design. Let me know if your interested...
Love spearhead saucers but don’t cut notches in it. Just move the nacelles out or back.
I mean look at the centaur class its also an "attack ship" if we want to compare it was a saucer a warp core , torpedo pod and nacelles.
Using Birds of Prey as attack ships might have gone back to TNG since from the sounds of things the Klingons were being a pin in the Romulans' backsides back when they were mostly using Birds of Prey.
Wasn’t the Defiant said in the shows as a cheap ship to produce in mass quickly?
Though the defiant was a pain to keep from tearing itself apart, so bad for green crews. And agree Defiants are designed as single purpose Borg killer.
A jack of all trades is a master of none, but it is far preferable than a master of one trade when you need someone who can do lots of things even if not at master level.
I've always loved this particular fan created vessel...
Starfleet had really let most of its smaller classes to rot over the years leading into the TNG era.
I agree in your assessment in attack vessels. I would go so far as to say the Federation really should have concentrated in producing more war oriented smaller classes of ships as soon as they thought they would be in a serious war with someone whom could take out a Galaxy class with 3 ships under 100m long. I do disagree with some of your views on the defiant. As the federation does seem to have been able to produce more of them given the one episode we saw on Valiant...
Ships on lower end of size spectrum (
I remember seeing this but I always thought This was also a concept art for the USS voyager Before it got its folding nacelles
Love the design
Wasnt the entire point of the Defiant class to have large numbers of heavily armed warships to swarm the enemy? Sounds like a failed design if thats the case.
It wouldn't necessarily be the first military program that was good, but too expensive to actually implement at scale.
Great video !
The Federation found out the hard and costly way of realizing that they can’t be pushing the Exploration and Scientists Directive anymore and needed to go back to being a Dedicated War Fighting Military Force again. They needed Soldiers not Scientists. That was the Federation’s problem for 100’s of years.
However the Lakota refit proven that the defiant isn't necessary and just a massive waste of resources instead of refitting other older ships like also the Miranda class.
If I was in charge I would have the defiant scrapped, its blueprints destroyed.
Also we learned that a Galaxy X class would be better than alot of the ships we seen.
Shame its an alternate universe ship.
The war would have gone differently if the federation had several Galaxy X Class ships.
The Interceptor appears to suffer from a being the type of Multi-role vessel that has no clear position in the fleet. It is the willful arrogance of Starfleet to build a smaller explorer vessel. During the Dominion War, the Interceptor would certainly be outfitted for combat. But as soon a the war is over the ships would be disarmed and used for explorers. Considering that threats and dangers can literally jump out of no where without warning, it is unwise to have effective combat vessels disarmed just because the skies are currently clear. And we all know this will happen because "How dare Starfleet be prepared for Hell and High Water".
The Interceptor would do best being in retinue of a larger command ship, flying in formation with a Galaxy, Sovereign, or Odyssey class, utilizing the Command/Mother ship's facilities to extend the smaller ships over all range and endurance. This also extends the defensive field of the Command/Mother ship as the interceptor can INTERCEPT incoming threats or at least seeing coming patrolling just beyond the Command/mother ship's sensor range but still within communications range. This is something already done with USN Carrier fleets with aircraft extending well beyond the carrier fleet's range to see.
I always thought it was ridiculous that the federation never had an attack craft. Small crew high damage output. The Romulans commented on the manpower issues the federation had during the dominion war. Maybe don’t take officers with six year degrees and put them on a firing line? A ship like a “bird of prey”. Minimal crew and endurance, just pure offense.