It's nice to know the technology is marching forward. That said, CRTs are beautiful tech, perfectly paired with the applicable tech of their period, and I've never had a moment of desire to put what was meant for a CRT onto a flat screen.
It amazes me in a good way that CRTs, that oldest of still commonly available display tech at this point, always win the latency battle even years later. And a lot of them are still brighter than common non-HDR LCD panels, with better blacks.
Well said. I also will never replace my CRTs. This advancement is great for video capture, but I seriously doubt CRTs can ever be perfectly emulated with any flat panel tech.
@@JimBul-j6v Not always. On the PC due to vsync lag I think a modern VRR setup can actually beat a CRT on overall latency just because they're essentially like running with vsync off latency wise.
Now, don’t get me wrong, I adore Mike Chi. The RT5X was a game changer for my setup. But with that said… “Try harder, Mike Chi” needs to go on a t-shirt along with the silhouette of your light gun of choice. I laughed so hard at the bit. Great video, as always, man. Keep up the great work.
Love Mike's work, he does a great job. Just wish he could take constructive criticism better. He blocked me on Twitter for asking what made the TINK 4K cost so much. Yikes.
"i have zero technical skills." Proceeds to spend the video succinctly explaining on a technical level how CRTs and modern displays work with and in relation to gaming 🧐 Great video, man. It's actually kind of nice to have a video on the RT4K that's not quite as into the weeds when it comes to the technical details, though you were still pretty thorough there too.
We're almost there, but not quite. Think about the tradeoffs your own list implies: you want 4K output for those sweet CRT mask filters, but that means you're stuck at 60Hz so no BFI from the Tink4K, and BFI from your TV adds extra lag (for whatever stupid reason). Output at 120Hz to use the lag-free BFI from the Tink4K means 1440p or 1080p max output, so you're back to 5X level CRT filters. So you can't have both 4K video and filters and the lowest lag BFI at the same time. And on top of that OLEDs can't get bright enough to match CRTs, as you noted as well. LCDs can but you need even higher refresh rates with those and still face the same tradeoffs as well as their own disadvantages. So basically we have the scaler that we need but not the right flat panels yet, or we need a scaler that can do 4K120.
Kind of makes you wonder how well these will perform with a Dual-IPS monitor, those have even better black performance than OLED, far better shadow resolution, several times better greyscale, and are 3-4 times brighter, only downside is they have even worse latency than OLED, as OLED has instant pixel response, LCD doesn't, but I'm still interested to see what they look like with the Tink4K, but we also have Tandem PHOLED right round the corner, combine one of those with 360hz raster-scan modulation, and a Tink $K, and you might finnaly have your CRT replacment. Of course mLED (true micro LED) is the most exciting new display tech, it has a 100 to 1 pixel density vs OLED, that is 100 pixels per 1 OLED pixel, imagine what that is going to do for PPI and resolutions, it will render scaling and procesing useless eventually, as high enough PPI means perfect multi resolution handling like CRTs nativly do already, add to that mLED start at nearly 4000hz refresh rates and already scales up to nearly 15000hz refresh rate, latency and motion on them will be incredible, to bad it wont be until 2027/28 untill a decent 65" mLED set is afordable.
@@Wobble2007 A dual-layer LCD with the right characteristics could be a very good option, but the only actual display remotely in existence that would cut it right now is the upcoming Sony BVM-HX3110 which will sell for over $30,000 (and also need to buy their BFI license which will probably be low lag but will cost a few extra thousand bucks). Realistically we will just have to wait for those microLEDs in maybe 5 or so years. By that point we may well have access to an even better retro scaler.
@@Izquierda You realise people are making dual-LCD modulated DIY monitors right? Have a look on RUclips, people are making 32" Dual-IPS displays that far outclass the best OLED panels and they cost less than 200 bucks to make lol, just think what the makers of Tink could put together with their expertise, I know I would buy a RetroTink 4K dual-IPS-Black monitor with a Blur Busters badge of aproval, RT could even make it native raster-scan/rolling-bar-scan (like the Sony one-of-a-kind flagship RGB-OLED BVM), imagine that, a modern better than OLED monitor with CRT grade smooth motion and a built in Tink 4K module, perhaps a G-Sync module for good measure. I find it strange that as of 2023, only Sony has managed to crack the 60hz CRT grade motion problem with their almost perfect rolling-bar-scan emulation mode via their 31" RGB-OLED monitor, and Dolby cam mighty close with their Dolby PRM-4200 Pulsar Impulse modulated dual-IPS-LCD reference monitor, this also had stellar 60hz CRT emulation, why does it cost a minimum of 30 thousand pounds to just get half way close to 15-20 year old technology?.
@@Wobble2007 Because no one wants to do it and it's a very niche thing, which of course a few fanatics like us really care about. I'm aware of the DIY projects, though I've never seen an actual completed project other than one in a YT video that seemed to have its own limitations. I wouldn't bother trying to put one together as I'm sure there would be one kind of issue or another. Like you I'd also welcome an affordable option offered by community makers, but I'm not holding my breath.
@@Izquierda To be honest, with Tandem PHOLED (2nd gen OLED which is dual/multi-stack and Phosphor based rather than fluroesent based, which offers much nicer, natural image quality), which takes the Dual-LCD conceps and applies it to the self-emmisive layers, completly outclasses Dual-LCD anyway, Dual-LCD only outperforms single emisive layer gen 1 OLED. And I understand where your coming from, but I'm not sure motion resolution, which is just resolution for anything that moves, is a niche thing, take sports for instance, if guys knew there was a display tech that could display there footy with much better motion clarity, and you could actually see the fucking ofside taking place or the goal line clearly, they would jump at it, same goes for gamers, when good motion resolution becomes more mainstream and people realize what they have been missing out on, they will want it, but that's just my opinion mate, take it with a pinch :). mLED solves all this in 5 years or so anyway, especially as you say, with the scaler tech we may have by then.
Upscalers like the RetroTink 4K are not meant to outright replace CRTs, but rather futureproof retro consoles, so that, when all the remaining CRT TVs in the wild stop working completely, you'll use those upscalers for playing your old systems on modern TVs. And make no mistake, those CRTs *_will_* eventually die out.
My Sony flat screen TV takes the output of all my retro consoles just fine. Analogue RF, composite, scart, etc. It'll be a long time until I ever consider spending $750 on this thing.
@@khaitomretro Does your TV properly detect 240p as 240p though? Most flat screen TVs detect it as 480i. This is very bad because it takes a progressive resolution, interlaces it, then deinterlaces it. This causes significant input lag. Not to mention the pixels simply don't look right, and dithering effects like in the old Sonic games look weird. This is why people use either CRT TVs or expensive upscalers, or at the very least the cheap linedoublers like the RetroTink-2X Pro. Or people will ignore all of this and simply use emulators like RetroArch.
@@_BELMONT_ Two have out lasted my lcd already. I guarantee that my crt and plasmas will also outlast my girlfriends qled. Modern tv are made to break.
@@crestofhonor2349 I used to work as an engineer with Fujitsu and I am able to replace capacitors at home. I have yet to bother doing so with my TV probably because the TVs are cheap (don’t buy over priced). I have replaced Commodore Computer capacitors at home though :)
You also live in the UK so 50hz is awful compared to the usual 60hz our American friends have. I like my trinitron but the flicker absolutely kills me and my older eyes.
I'm impressed direct you were. I guess I just like breakdowns with lists, but you introduced everything in a very organic way. My only complaint was you didn't show any 4K footage with filters as an example but that probably would have been a pain to render. Just a solid vid all around.
I've been following the development of the RT4K sink just about the beginning. I'm so glad to see that it turned out as well as it did! It does sadden me that it can't do 4k@120 and provide BFI itself to 4k@120 panels that don't do it well themselves, but I guess we can't have EVERYTHING. Thanks for the video, it was a great watch! Glad to see the channel is doing well, you even got a sponsor, how exciting!
Guess what-- its possible to do anamorphic resolutions via custom modelines-- The 4K is limited to a 600MHz pixel clock, so I just asked a beta tester on the shmups.system11 hardware forum to try 1920x2160@120Hz-- it works, and it displays on an LG C3 OLED according to him. So, while true 4K120 BFI might not be possible, anamorphic, reduced horizontal resolution 4K is technically possible. Also, @1440p, 120Hz is no problem so you can always use that for your BFI mode.
Wow, you did an incredible job with this. The Tink4K is amazing, but I can't stomach spending $750 for just one. 5-10 years from now when the tech is less expensive and just as efficient (if not substantially more), I think it will be more universally beneficial to retrogamers. It also seems like a product for the extremely hardcore - but for $750 you can buy a CRT (if it's for your arcade cabinet) - and a lot of hardcore gamers use PVM's which generally run $250-500 (and they space friendly). Glad you mentioned photodiode light guns, and I think input lag (while it's real) is so negligible on a good modern setup, if done right - that it goes unnoticed. My logic is likely flawed a bit because I'm not SUPER techy, but those are just my observations based on personal experience/preference. Nonetheless, great product, great video!!
Even the absolute lowest lag flat panel screens only have low lag when being fed a fully digital native resolution signal over HDMI. Converting 240p/480i always adds an extreme amount of lag, which is where at least a retrotink5x comes in. On most TVs, you may only have 1 frame of lag with a PS5, but you will have as much as 8 or more frames of lag with a Super Nintendo or the like, and the TV is 99% likely to misinterpret 240p as 480i, trying to deinterlace a signal that isn’t interlaced, ruining many effects that old 240p games used and adding to lag and degrading visual quality.
advantage of a good CRT like a Sony Trinitron or Toshiba tv with component AV or S-Video usually don't cost $750. Some retro gamers, like me, can't really afford an expensive Upscaler like the RetroTink 4K
people tried to get me to throw away our 38" toshiba crt when we upgraded to new tv's but NOPE. i planned on it originally but i could never bring myself to throw away a working big ass tv. a decade ago it was an eyesore.
Take into consideration space required for large CRT (mentioned Trinitron) and how heavy they are. The larger WEGA are something like 200+ lbs, and take up a large portion of the gaming area. Moving them is a pain (actual pain, not to mention a risk everytime). I feel like the tech is at the point that convenience wins over the original.
@@crwyckoff None of those cons are worth spending 750 dollars for an upscaler if it was a $100 or less then maybe but that price point is a big NOPE, also there's an easy solution for them, use a smaller CRT and stop moving your CRTs all the time (who does that seriously). 20 inch ones and below are great and dirt cheap and still easy to find in most places. I bought a 20" Sony VVEGA for $4 bucks just a few days ago to add to my collection and it blows any upscaler out of the water and is not really that heavy, I could lift it by myself easily and I'm a scrawny out of shape dude.
I think your comparison with the filters was the most compelling argument, especially with that shot of your TV vs the PVM that was really cool. However, i think your conclusions are a bit misleading. The CRT still won out on 2/3 comparisons from what i saw. For example, with the motion blur comparison Black frame insertion vs your PVM, i could see the difference even through the camera. idk im happy with my 5x for streaming since the image is going to be scaled through OBS either way and PVMs/CRT for personal enjoyment. I understand compared to other 4k scalers $750 is a breakthrough price, but other than convenience of a flatpanel i dont see the justification for the purchase when the CRT still beats it in every category and is a fraction of the price. will definitely be more in demand as 4ks become more prevalent and CRTs start dying even more from age.
Great video, as always. This piece of kit is a solid 5 to 10 years ahead of its time, a true generational leap from the OSSC and Tink5x. At the end of the day, it'll always be lag as the true to test for me. Scanlines are nice but not a must for me, motion blur doesn't bother bother me one bit, but lag makes or breaks my experience with games. When I picked up Mega Man 2 for the first time in 20ish years and played on my LCD, I couldn't comprehend why I was so bad at it. Rust and poor reflexes was my guess. Fast forward 5 years later and I pick up a CRT. Instantly I was better at Mega Man 2 and all other NES games. If the Tink4K really as that good (and an outstanding OLED to boot), then this Mike Chi grail is 99% of retro gamers' stop, no questions asked. It and future Tink or Tink-esque products will inevitably replace CRTs when they inevitably die. And that's a good thing! We're going to make it!
Input latency is such an important thing to minimise, it's true. Even certain older LCDs from a decade ago are better at it than some modern ones, so much so I end up playing my PS5 through an older Sony Bravia KDL-40EX503 1080p60 SDR panel rather than the newer Sony X Series 4K120 HDR capable panel I've had for over a year. This seems especially true of 1080p consoles like the PS3 too - seems any time you put anything less than 2160p native res to a modern TV, it lags too much during the upscale. Hopefully the RT4K can finally solve that in my setups.
@@JimBul-j6v 1/4 of a frame of lag @ 1080p/120hz seems pretty damn good. Less than a frame is perfectly acceptable for competitive use, just have to test the monitor mated with the RT4K.
@@polynektarAgreed, you're correct. I also recommend deep diving your TV settings as well, because even when enabling Game Mode sometimes post-processing settings that add latency are left on, Google TV software based ones like my Sony X series do. Switching off Live Colour, Motionflow and all that kind of junk not only can help cut input lag but also can make for a less over-saturated picture.
this is by far the best review/preview of the retrotink 4K on internet, and I've seen atleast 4 already. Yet your channel has least subscribers?! WTH. You deserve more!
DANG IT 8-Bit Esquire's basement videos are anything but basement quality. I couldn't stop watching once I started! And I needed to go to bed too! Thanks for the excellent content man. Rooting for your channels success and hope to see more from you soon!
Oh man that ending line got me lol! Great video! I'm a CRT freak, but after watching this I might seriously consider purchasing a Retrotink 4k one day. I'll always love my CRT's, but it would be great to play on my 4k Sony Tv as well.
Dang, called out on the lightgun compatability at the end lol. I just got a 5X a few months ago and I love it. I don't see myself upgrading immediately, but eventually, I probably will. Great video!
We're still talking about this in my husband's retro speedrunning channel when people ask questions about the difference between this and the 5x and sending viewers your way. IDK if we expressed this with a comment when we first saw your video, so I wanted to come back and make sure it gets said - you did an excellent job demonstrating what this tech is capable of and why someone might be interested in dropping this kind of money on it. ♡
LOOOl that ending got me good. Loved the video. You took a lot of great footage for it and really highlighted well the benefits of that extra resolution phosphor detail that the tink 4k simulates. One minor critique of mine is that the sound for your 8-bit esquire logo was a bit startling for me each time it popped up. It could just be that I’m exhausted right now from being jet lagged😂
That does really look excellent. Only problem with this is not only do I need the $750 for the Tink itself, but also need to buy a 4k OLED panel that can do 120Hz. As much as I'd like the desk space back, I think the 20" PVM will be staying for now!
You can't replace the magical glow of a CRT. I don't what it is about it, something about the way a CRT glows and flashes is unlike anything else. You'd think OLED would achieve the same thing, but it doesn't. That said, the retrotink is pretty dang awesome!
This is a good point. A videofile explained to me the other day that CRTs emit a different type of light closer to sunlight - which means they can acheive a greater spectrum of colors that LED or OLED TVs can't. I still want to learn more about about this topic, but it is interesting to think about. I too think CRTs look amazing. I'm excited to see how the RT4K emulates them.
They reckon in about 10 years screen technology will be as good as CRT displays, even then nothing will replace them. they were magical crts displays can reproduce colours that not even OLED can simply because CRT is analog and oled is digital, analog has no boundaries for colour reproduction, digital is 1's and 0's what happens the the data in between these 2 numbers? yup, its not there.
I'm a f dumb ass .... So I work as a Porter for a Uni and actually had a crt in possession... me not being aware enough I got rid of it for "Space Cuase it does consume alot of space especially living in a. Closet in NYC lmaoo .. but Yea I'm a dumb ass
@@StephenC-zh6yh Plasmas I'm pretty sure had the exact same magical glow. :P Either way, good luck finding a low hour 32" Sony wega Trinitron CRT(2005) off market place. ;) Most of them do not look as good as they once did brand new out of the box. And they'll continue to get worse and worse as time goes on. We need a good replacement, and it seems QD-OLED + TINK4K is your best bet. QD-OLED also has it's perks, like perfect blacks, higher brightness, progressive scan, and not being stuck with an ugly big boxy silver CRT Bezel. The 50% motion blur drop from TINK4K's internal BFI(+ HDR SDR brightness boosting) and lower latency makes it good enough for 8-32 bit sprite based games. Just anything, that isn't in first or 3rd person.
I wonder. Have you tried a light gun with the black frame insertion? I was under the impression the reason light guns didn't work with these scalers was due to it failing to render the full black frame before the white box frame. I'd be curious to see if it worked or not.
My knee-jerk reaction was 100% “NO it won’t!” when I read the title. First time I have watched one of your videos and it was very good. $750 for a scaler and $$ for a nice OLED TV with HDR 10 capability and a fair bit of tweaking to get the same functionality of a CRT that somebody can often get for free? Yeah, maybe you can replace it (no Virtua Cop though right ;) and that’s an amazing development but I sure am not going to replace my CRT. I literally just got rid of my frame meister because I was not happy with it because it never matched up to the experience I had on the CRT. I almost never used it . Maybe this would make me happy. Your setup looks great. I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that you have no technical skills. That’s some good lawyer speak ;). Oh yeah and I personally don’t care a ton about lag except in maybe Punch Out on the NES. I feel like some of the hard core lot focus waaaay too much on lag.
great video thank you its' great that the new gen scaling options like morph and rt4k have such great crt emulation and hdr injection good time to be a retro gamer
It’ll definitely do the job for me. No more geometry and convergence issues, perfect reliability. Also my friends will enjoy multiplayer retro games on a large OLED much more than cramming by the smaller CRT. Thanks for clearing the last of my doubts!
I mean, I don't see myself replacing my $30 CRT for a $750 device. On a more serious note, for what it offers I was fully expecting it to cost $1000 so I'm more than impress to what it has been archieved.
To be fair, that CRT is going to die eventually. CRT tech is so fragile in so many ways, and relied so much on extreme precision such that one component being slightly out of alignment or damaged causes the image on screen to degrade or warp. These days it’s almost impossible; in my experience, to find a CRT with perfect geometry. So these devices are our future. CRT’s and those who can still maintain them or make parts for them will wane and we won’t have any other choice.
@@deusprogrammer_thekingofspace I think we all know they're the future but we're not there yet, specially at 750 bucks, when they start to cost 100 to 50 bucks you will see people start flocking to them, but until that day comes it's CRTs all the way for 99% of retro gamers who care about authenticity and their games looking right. In fact I've been able to find CRTs with perfect geometry pretty easily, curved ones, PVMs/BVMs and CRT monitors, is mostly the flat ones that have geometry problems unless the set is defective, but it's undeniable that they all are slowly dying as everything and it's all a matter of time before they randomly die one day so hopefully these scalers will come down in price in a few years or the next decade I hope.
@@deusprogrammer_thekingofspace CRT's that are even 15 years old(Sony WEGA Trinitron - 2005) are all dimmer, colors can lose saturation, black levels can lighten, and it's only going to get worse from here on out unfortunately due to the internal tech guts aging and from hours being poured into them. A smaller 42" LG C4 OLED + RetroTINK4K is an expensive route to take, which will run you just under 3 grand CAD. I feel like the Tink4K is crucial because of it's internal black frame insertion, and CRT softening & Scanline options. But correct me if I'm wrong, because the end result with latency isn't very good > *Well under a frame(16ms) of lag, just by using Tink4K & FrameLock. *5 - 8ms of lag by using Tink4K's Black frame insertion. - (Which cuts down half your OLED TV's motion blur.) *9ms of lag from LG C3 OLED TV"s Game Mode. That's teetering towards 25-30ms of lag....That's not good. lol Then you have to deal with BFI flicker. That's a pretty penny for lackluster latency results, unless I'm missing something here...
Congrats on the sponsor. This is actually the one video I really wanted to see vis-a-vis the RT4K after seeing some of the screenshots on Twitter. I wonder if that motion blur is even fixable by Mike Chi. Thanks! Ps - I LOVE your t-shirt.
Maybe in future they'll need to use rapid colourspace dithering/colour-shifting to try and mimic the much wider spectrum (high CRI) RGB phosphors of CRT's, as the spectrums of modern display subpixels are much narrower and are due to get narrower still. Unfortunately as it stands the colours tend to look too sterile and artificial (albeit very vivid) compared to the more organic look of CRT's. Perhaps the HDR10 aspect of these retrotink 4K shaders helps in this regard but ultimately they're static and thus probably limited in effect.
I’ll be honest. I’ve been a CRT purest for a long time. I don’t judge others on how they want to play, but it’s what I’ve always preferred. That is, until I got an analogue pocket and a dock. Now, I’m really considering getting a RT4K so I can play on my living room tv. Great video as always!
@@crestofhonor2349 I have a few. The arcade ones are awesome, but extremely difficult to find today (in any condition) and very difficult to have serviced as they are different than regular arcade monitors or regular TV's and most tech's wont' touch them. And finding parts is tough. Computer VGA CRT's have a different look than arcade monitors or TV's. Classic arcade games and classic consoles were designed to work on a regular TV tube, also found in retro arcade monitors. Computer VGA monitor tubes were very different, and I tried all kinds of emulators on them. Probably still look better than an LCD, but not nearly as good as the old school tubes. A game console like my Sega Dreamcast however still looked great on my 19" SVGA computer monitor. But that is a much later system.
First time finding this channel, what an awesome and detailed video. Really liked it. It was entertaining but stayed on topic and got to the point quickly. Thanks so much!
One huge problem with this approach honestly is the burn-in that will be caused from running games in 4:3, I am obviously curious to get a Tink4k eventually but I don't think it can replace my CRT unless I was willing to dedicate an entire OLED to 4:3 content and accept the burn-in that comes with it. RTINGS recently did a video about this on Ultrawides and 16:9 ratio. Would warn people against doing 4:3 on 16:9 panels because it only took a small amount of hours of 16:9 on an ultrawide to show burn-in.
I've had an LG C1 OLED for a few years, I've played all manners of aspect rations in this TV. Even RTS games that have constant UI, no burn in. I know it happens sometimes but in modern OLEDs the issue is lessened considerably. I'd plug this device to my OLED without fear.
I've never seen your content before, but you definitely gained a new sub. That was a really good comparison breakdown, so I can see why Mike sent you a Tink 4k! I wish I could've grabbed one, as I just got a new OLED a few weeks ago. Like you said, every television is going to be vastly different. I think pairing the Tink 4k with a $500 LED 4k TV would kind of be frivolous, but I'm sure there's people that are gonna do it. Can't wait to see more from ya!
Great video, exactly what I needed to watch! I'm hoping to snag an RT4K to pair with my LG C1 OLED. I have a pretty decent Sony KV-32FS13 which has been modded to RGB via Mux and its great when I need my light gun fix though I've been looking for a higher end PVM or BVM which can output 480p, 720p, and 1080i but most 20" models are $1-2K+ and may still have technical issues for the price. I think the RT4K should be my last scaler and I can stop my search for a BVM/PVM. I love the advanced CRT scan line generation features, a game changer for folks who love the CRT look! Hope I can purchase one of the first batch models...
Awesome video as always! Way to throw down that Mike Chi challenge. I'm scared now that he may never ever sleep and actually figure out some mad scientist way of figuring that out. 😅
The versatility is the draw for me here. Not only do you have a plethora of options, they're high quality and endlessly tweakable too, if you need. I don't own a lot of retro consoles any more, but I do own a lot of ones that only do 1080p max - Wii U, PS3, Switch. And I would love to be able to scale those up to 2160p so my Sony X Series 4K120 HDR panel will get native resolution with less lag than it's own upscaler. So even for my use case, the RT4K kinda has me covered. That price tag is high but so is the value for those who can afford it. Mike does good work! Can't wait to see John Linnemann review his as well, he's super excited about this product too.
This is impressive and will for sure get one for the HDMI input, HDR injection and advanced shaders. But in my experience, to get something that looks like a good CRT shadow mask on an HD panel with almost no input lag, takes a lot of money and effort. You are better off getting a real CRT if you have the space. It is much easier/cheaper. HD displays would need a combination of good nits, HDR, VRR, BFI, low input lag and good upscaling to even get close, and by the time you get all that equipment ready, you´ll be in the thousands of dollars. On the other hand, if the HD TV is not next to my CRT for me to compare, then with the right CRT shader filters I tend to think it looks OK. Once they are together I can totally see why CRT tech is superior for retro. And also, I understand how most people with only HD displays would find the CRT shaders to be OK or good enough. But not me. "Try harder Mike Chi" killed me.
There's a problem with this comparison. You didn't include price. PRICE SHOULD HAVE BEEN NUMBER 4. I just picked up a great little Akai CRT with composite and S-video. Great picture, no input lag, no motion blur, great brightness. 10$. Now compare to the new Retrotink 4k. 750 USD. Now add a display capable of low latency, high brightness, HDR10, OLED. Another 2k. Okay so now you are closing in on 3k after tax, vs lets even say 50-100$ for a decent CRT. I get that it's cool, but without factoring in the price difference, it's kind of moot. So far between 50 and 300 times the price, you can get ALMOST as good as an old CRT. ;) I don't think I'll be throwing out my CRT any time soon.....
The RT4K has the color order of the phosphors backwards compared to the PVM 14M1J in your video… they’re red-green pairs in the latter, not green-red like in the former.
lol, got recommended this video as I'm on a RetroTink 4K binge right now, and thought 'meh, I'll give this nobody a shot'. I ended up enjoying it very much and even feel I learned (or at least was able to understand) more - even though I've seen the videos from all the big hitters. Hope to see more of you, and will enjoy posting 'I've been watching since 2.5k subs' when you're at 100k. 👍
Algorithm gods were shining upon you for this one. This video came up in my feed and you had me at the bit about, "I'm just a random dude in my basement filming youtube videos about old video game hardware. I dunno anything" That honesty was enough for me to sub. Hope great things for this channel going forward.
Everyone is losing their mind over the price, and I understand why. But if this can truly blend like a CRT does, especially for things like dithering, then this is easily the best choice in the long-run. CRTs will degrade over time and the price of premium units are probably only going to go up; which leaves us with the only option for faithful recreations being something like the RetroTink 4K. That doesn’t even mention the fact that this allows you to have an 85”+ CRT-equivalent display. Like it or not, this is the only long-term option we will have in the end. I’m already considering buying it since it’s much cheaper than buying and moving any of the large 16:9 CRT TVs listed on eBay.
This might be a stupid question (I don't know much about retro hardware): But is it possible to plugin an HDMI device, like a raspberry with RetroPie and the same results with emulation?
The motion blur can be solved by the display strobing the backlight for say 1ms per frame instead of the usual ~16ms. Black frame insertion just reduces this to 8ms. I've modified a monitor to do the 1ms and motion is really clean, though things are naturally dimmer. I'm pretty sure there are modern digital monitors that allows this strobing at normal 60 Hz rate.
I know this is a controversial topic but a PVM is the worst possible metric for juding retro games as most of the retro systems were designed with consumer televisions in mind and only absolute freaks used PVM for gaming, same for RGB out. These display methods being used for regular gaming are near anachronistic and extrapolating a benchmark for scalers from them kind of defeats the purpose/borders on over-engineering. Like if that's your jam you might as well emulate, will give you the same overcrisp presenation. What most people actually fondly remember is consumer grade CRT televisions via composite signal and not some convoluted backwards-logic overpriced way to make analog gaming look like emulation. But I guess everyone's tastes are different.
People watching this from 20 years ago would see modern LCD panels and think we were crazy for trying to make games look like the old tvs! Funny how things go, I too love the CRT look for these games!
Im a little confused. I thought all CRTs could only produce interlaced image, not progressive. That means that all resolutions ended with an "i" and not a "p" (240i, 360i, etc.)
If a device comes along that lets me use my current lightguns on modern TVs I'll jump on it but as things stand I'll hold on to my CRT and keep my eyes open for a bigger one
learned about this from this video; now will definitely pick one up sometime (after the yen gains value and the value drops for customs duties unless it can be sold through a domestic seller...)
Does it still have the white border for Sinden light gun use like Retrotink5X? I wanna upgrade but I use my 5X with my PS2 for light gun games on modern screens. With a Pi4 and Arduino you can use the Sinden on an original PS2 as a Guncon2 but the 5X is needed to create the white border needed for the SInden. I don't wanna upgrade to lose that feature.
I'm super pumped to add one of these to my setup. The RT5X Pro has been king for two years, but I'll move it to the kids room and retire my old OSSC that just hosts our Wii in there. Amazing how with 5 milliseconds of latency, you still can't play light gun games with your OLED display.
As much as I love the feel and look of a CRT, the invention of LCD screens is the foundation for our technology in the past 30 years. It would be interesting in some alternate reality where technology progressed differently and CRTs were still common tvs in 2024.
Wow, I always had trouble to explain clearly to my friend why CRT were better than flat pannel, but you nailed it good. The end of the video made me laugh. Ps. you have a lot of short material in this video :D
@@8bitesquire haha hey I see an impressive chin and I have to say something, for real though, the effort and time it takes to make these long vids is genuinely appreciated
That is awesome. I've been waiting for this since 4k became cheap. The price is too high for me though. Your SMB close ups are so clean. Are they RGB? WE didn't even have composite video in on our TVs when we played this in the 80's so most were stuck with RF.
Interesting, whilst I really enjoy the magical look of phosphor dots, my main enjoyment of owning a CRT comes from 1. The aesthetics of having one in my space, including the CURVE of the screen 2. The little noises it makes when switched on/off. So this device doesn’t at all replace the experience of a CRT in my view. Maybe they’ll make curved CRT-looking modern displays one day.
If your tv has excellent handling of 60hz inputs like the lg oleds with boostmode enabled you will actually increase lag scanconverting the signal to 120hz. because a 60hz device that's connected to the tink can't deliver a whole frames worth of pixels in half the time. The tink will have to buffer atleast half a frame to scanconvert 60hz to 120hz one of the lg oleds with boostmode enabled and the tink outputing at 60hz will give the the lowest lag
Great video, quick question what camera do you use to record your videos? I notice no refresh lines on the crt monitors which looks amazing. Clearly a decent camera setup
“Look at what they need to mimic a faction of our power”
-CRT TVs
This should be pinned
Somebody just needs to start making crts again
honestly i would actually get one
I don't think they can due to new environmental laws around the world.
@@seanmcbay Yeah, shitty world.
sorry but that will never happen
@@krakrug3958 Sad truth.
It's nice to know the technology is marching forward. That said, CRTs are beautiful tech, perfectly paired with the applicable tech of their period, and I've never had a moment of desire to put what was meant for a CRT onto a flat screen.
It amazes me in a good way that CRTs, that oldest of still commonly available display tech at this point, always win the latency battle even years later. And a lot of them are still brighter than common non-HDR LCD panels, with better blacks.
Well said. I also will never replace my CRTs. This advancement is great for video capture, but I seriously doubt CRTs can ever be perfectly emulated with any flat panel tech.
@@JimBul-j6v Not always. On the PC due to vsync lag I think a modern VRR setup can actually beat a CRT on overall latency just because they're essentially like running with vsync off latency wise.
And CRT geometry is basically garbage. CRTs are pretty overrated really.
@@JimBul-j6v until you're using prof oled panels with less than
Now, don’t get me wrong, I adore Mike Chi. The RT5X was a game changer for my setup. But with that said… “Try harder, Mike Chi” needs to go on a t-shirt along with the silhouette of your light gun of choice. I laughed so hard at the bit. Great video, as always, man. Keep up the great work.
Thank you sir! 🙏
Would buy
The only light gun game I care about is virtua cop, and I haven't played that in 15 years. They're not worth keeping a CRT around.
Great idea! I’ll make one shirt with a GunCon. 😂
Love Mike's work, he does a great job. Just wish he could take constructive criticism better. He blocked me on Twitter for asking what made the TINK 4K cost so much. Yikes.
"i have zero technical skills." Proceeds to spend the video succinctly explaining on a technical level how CRTs and modern displays work with and in relation to gaming 🧐
Great video, man. It's actually kind of nice to have a video on the RT4K that's not quite as into the weeds when it comes to the technical details, though you were still pretty thorough there too.
Nah I’m a idiot 😂
@@8bitesquire Hey man, never said you weren't. Never said you weren't 🥰
Not for $750 it won't.
And since I kept my old JVC CRT it costs me $0.
I agree. Mike went wild with that price. I think he over did it with the pricing.
Yeah definitely for the hardcore at that price point
@kemy6775 It's not cheap but the first batch just sold out in less than half an hour so he probably could've charged more
Found my crt in garbage
We're almost there, but not quite. Think about the tradeoffs your own list implies: you want 4K output for those sweet CRT mask filters, but that means you're stuck at 60Hz so no BFI from the Tink4K, and BFI from your TV adds extra lag (for whatever stupid reason). Output at 120Hz to use the lag-free BFI from the Tink4K means 1440p or 1080p max output, so you're back to 5X level CRT filters. So you can't have both 4K video and filters and the lowest lag BFI at the same time. And on top of that OLEDs can't get bright enough to match CRTs, as you noted as well. LCDs can but you need even higher refresh rates with those and still face the same tradeoffs as well as their own disadvantages. So basically we have the scaler that we need but not the right flat panels yet, or we need a scaler that can do 4K120.
Kind of makes you wonder how well these will perform with a Dual-IPS monitor, those have even better black performance than OLED, far better shadow resolution, several times better greyscale, and are 3-4 times brighter, only downside is they have even worse latency than OLED, as OLED has instant pixel response, LCD doesn't, but I'm still interested to see what they look like with the Tink4K, but we also have Tandem PHOLED right round the corner, combine one of those with 360hz raster-scan modulation, and a Tink $K, and you might finnaly have your CRT replacment.
Of course mLED (true micro LED) is the most exciting new display tech, it has a 100 to 1 pixel density vs OLED, that is 100 pixels per 1 OLED pixel, imagine what that is going to do for PPI and resolutions, it will render scaling and procesing useless eventually, as high enough PPI means perfect multi resolution handling like CRTs nativly do already, add to that mLED start at nearly 4000hz refresh rates and already scales up to nearly 15000hz refresh rate, latency and motion on them will be incredible, to bad it wont be until 2027/28 untill a decent 65" mLED set is afordable.
@@Wobble2007 A dual-layer LCD with the right characteristics could be a very good option, but the only actual display remotely in existence that would cut it right now is the upcoming Sony BVM-HX3110 which will sell for over $30,000 (and also need to buy their BFI license which will probably be low lag but will cost a few extra thousand bucks). Realistically we will just have to wait for those microLEDs in maybe 5 or so years. By that point we may well have access to an even better retro scaler.
@@Izquierda You realise people are making dual-LCD modulated DIY monitors right? Have a look on RUclips, people are making 32" Dual-IPS displays that far outclass the best OLED panels and they cost less than 200 bucks to make lol, just think what the makers of Tink could put together with their expertise, I know I would buy a RetroTink 4K dual-IPS-Black monitor with a Blur Busters badge of aproval, RT could even make it native raster-scan/rolling-bar-scan (like the Sony one-of-a-kind flagship RGB-OLED BVM), imagine that, a modern better than OLED monitor with CRT grade smooth motion and a built in Tink 4K module, perhaps a G-Sync module for good measure.
I find it strange that as of 2023, only Sony has managed to crack the 60hz CRT grade motion problem with their almost perfect rolling-bar-scan emulation mode via their 31" RGB-OLED monitor, and Dolby cam mighty close with their Dolby PRM-4200 Pulsar Impulse modulated dual-IPS-LCD reference monitor, this also had stellar 60hz CRT emulation, why does it cost a minimum of 30 thousand pounds to just get half way close to 15-20 year old technology?.
@@Wobble2007 Because no one wants to do it and it's a very niche thing, which of course a few fanatics like us really care about. I'm aware of the DIY projects, though I've never seen an actual completed project other than one in a YT video that seemed to have its own limitations. I wouldn't bother trying to put one together as I'm sure there would be one kind of issue or another. Like you I'd also welcome an affordable option offered by community makers, but I'm not holding my breath.
@@Izquierda To be honest, with Tandem PHOLED (2nd gen OLED which is dual/multi-stack and Phosphor based rather than fluroesent based, which offers much nicer, natural image quality), which takes the Dual-LCD conceps and applies it to the self-emmisive layers, completly outclasses Dual-LCD anyway, Dual-LCD only outperforms single emisive layer gen 1 OLED.
And I understand where your coming from, but I'm not sure motion resolution, which is just resolution for anything that moves, is a niche thing, take sports for instance, if guys knew there was a display tech that could display there footy with much better motion clarity, and you could actually see the fucking ofside taking place or the goal line clearly, they would jump at it, same goes for gamers, when good motion resolution becomes more mainstream and people realize what they have been missing out on, they will want it, but that's just my opinion mate, take it with a pinch :).
mLED solves all this in 5 years or so anyway, especially as you say, with the scaler tech we may have by then.
Upscalers like the RetroTink 4K are not meant to outright replace CRTs, but rather futureproof retro consoles, so that, when all the remaining CRT TVs in the wild stop working completely, you'll use those upscalers for playing your old systems on modern TVs.
And make no mistake, those CRTs *_will_* eventually die out.
I refuse to have my CRTs die! They're my precious babies! 😭😇
My Sony flat screen TV takes the output of all my retro consoles just fine. Analogue RF, composite, scart, etc. It'll be a long time until I ever consider spending $750 on this thing.
Will they become outright impossible to repair?
@@khaitomretro Does your TV properly detect 240p as 240p though? Most flat screen TVs detect it as 480i. This is very bad because it takes a progressive resolution, interlaces it, then deinterlaces it. This causes significant input lag. Not to mention the pixels simply don't look right, and dithering effects like in the old Sonic games look weird.
This is why people use either CRT TVs or expensive upscalers, or at the very least the cheap linedoublers like the RetroTink-2X Pro.
Or people will ignore all of this and simply use emulators like RetroArch.
@@chrisgill326 Yes, new CRT tubes are not being made. Phosphor decays.
I have three CRT. Two cost £5.00 each. The third cost £25.
I have component, rgb scart, s video, composite and AV options. Total spend: £35.
You’re totally right, but how long is your already 20-30 tear old tube gonna last?
@@_BELMONT_ Two have out lasted my lcd already.
I guarantee that my crt and plasmas will also outlast my girlfriends qled.
Modern tv are made to break.
@@_BELMONT_ Tubes rarely die. You are more likely going to have to replace the caps before the tube itself dies
@@crestofhonor2349 I used to work as an engineer with Fujitsu and I am able to replace capacitors at home. I have yet to bother doing so with my TV probably because the TVs are cheap (don’t buy over priced). I have replaced Commodore Computer capacitors at home though :)
You also live in the UK so 50hz is awful compared to the usual 60hz our American friends have.
I like my trinitron but the flicker absolutely kills me and my older eyes.
Hard to believe this channel has less than 2k subs. This is some great content!!
17:26 This is why everyone should buy this thing.
I know I commented 8 months ago, but I'm stunned you don't have more viewers. Great video!
I'm impressed direct you were. I guess I just like breakdowns with lists, but you introduced everything in a very organic way. My only complaint was you didn't show any 4K footage with filters as an example but that probably would have been a pain to render. Just a solid vid all around.
hey buddy
Never. Too expensive. You can buy 10 crt for the price. CRT is life! I was saying it again this morning to my blast city 😂
He was also testing this $750 device on a $1,200 OLED TV. Like, yikes
This is an absolutely incredible review of the Retrotink 4K. Excellent production quality here, you are going to blow up for sure.
Thank you so much!
@@8bitesquire You are most welcome.
I've been following the development of the RT4K sink just about the beginning. I'm so glad to see that it turned out as well as it did! It does sadden me that it can't do 4k@120 and provide BFI itself to 4k@120 panels that don't do it well themselves, but I guess we can't have EVERYTHING.
Thanks for the video, it was a great watch! Glad to see the channel is doing well, you even got a sponsor, how exciting!
🙏
we may have to wait for 8k/18X
Guess what-- its possible to do anamorphic resolutions via custom modelines-- The 4K is limited to a 600MHz pixel clock, so I just asked a beta tester on the shmups.system11 hardware forum to try 1920x2160@120Hz-- it works, and it displays on an LG C3 OLED according to him. So, while true 4K120 BFI might not be possible, anamorphic, reduced horizontal resolution 4K is technically possible. Also, @1440p, 120Hz is no problem so you can always use that for your BFI mode.
If he would have built in hdmi 2.1 it would have been possible.
@@maegnificant I wonder why he didnt?
cost?
chip does not support it?
Wow, you did an incredible job with this. The Tink4K is amazing, but I can't stomach spending $750 for just one. 5-10 years from now when the tech is less expensive and just as efficient (if not substantially more), I think it will be more universally beneficial to retrogamers. It also seems like a product for the extremely hardcore - but for $750 you can buy a CRT (if it's for your arcade cabinet) - and a lot of hardcore gamers use PVM's which generally run $250-500 (and they space friendly). Glad you mentioned photodiode light guns, and I think input lag (while it's real) is so negligible on a good modern setup, if done right - that it goes unnoticed. My logic is likely flawed a bit because I'm not SUPER techy, but those are just my observations based on personal experience/preference. Nonetheless, great product, great video!!
Thank you so much!!
Even the absolute lowest lag flat panel screens only have low lag when being fed a fully digital native resolution signal over HDMI.
Converting 240p/480i always adds an extreme amount of lag, which is where at least a retrotink5x comes in.
On most TVs, you may only have 1 frame of lag with a PS5, but you will have as much as 8 or more frames of lag with a Super Nintendo or the like, and the TV is 99% likely to misinterpret 240p as 480i, trying to deinterlace a signal that isn’t interlaced, ruining many effects that old 240p games used and adding to lag and degrading visual quality.
advantage of a good CRT like a Sony Trinitron or Toshiba tv with component AV or S-Video usually don't cost $750.
Some retro gamers, like me, can't really afford an expensive Upscaler like the RetroTink 4K
And that’s ok!! I think I’m keeping my CRTs too
people tried to get me to throw away our 38" toshiba crt when we upgraded to new tv's but NOPE. i planned on it originally but i could never bring myself to throw away a working big ass tv. a decade ago it was an eyesore.
Take into consideration space required for large CRT (mentioned Trinitron) and how heavy they are. The larger WEGA are something like 200+ lbs, and take up a large portion of the gaming area. Moving them is a pain (actual pain, not to mention a risk everytime).
I feel like the tech is at the point that convenience wins over the original.
FPGA are expensive. Just wait for the price to go down and devices like this will be cheaper.
@@crwyckoff None of those cons are worth spending 750 dollars for an upscaler if it was a $100 or less then maybe but that price point is a big NOPE, also there's an easy solution for them, use a smaller CRT and stop moving your CRTs all the time (who does that seriously). 20 inch ones and below are great and dirt cheap and still easy to find in most places. I bought a 20" Sony VVEGA for $4 bucks just a few days ago to add to my collection and it blows any upscaler out of the water and is not really that heavy, I could lift it by myself easily and I'm a scrawny out of shape dude.
I think your comparison with the filters was the most compelling argument, especially with that shot of your TV vs the PVM that was really cool. However, i think your conclusions are a bit misleading. The CRT still won out on 2/3 comparisons from what i saw. For example, with the motion blur comparison Black frame insertion vs your PVM, i could see the difference even through the camera. idk im happy with my 5x for streaming since the image is going to be scaled through OBS either way and PVMs/CRT for personal enjoyment. I understand compared to other 4k scalers $750 is a breakthrough price, but other than convenience of a flatpanel i dont see the justification for the purchase when the CRT still beats it in every category and is a fraction of the price. will definitely be more in demand as 4ks become more prevalent and CRTs start dying even more from age.
yea, that's the main point: no one can buy a new CRT anymore. So this scaler evolution is all we got to hope for
Great video, as always.
This piece of kit is a solid 5 to 10 years ahead of its time, a true generational leap from the OSSC and Tink5x. At the end of the day, it'll always be lag as the true to test for me. Scanlines are nice but not a must for me, motion blur doesn't bother bother me one bit, but lag makes or breaks my experience with games.
When I picked up Mega Man 2 for the first time in 20ish years and played on my LCD, I couldn't comprehend why I was so bad at it. Rust and poor reflexes was my guess. Fast forward 5 years later and I pick up a CRT. Instantly I was better at Mega Man 2 and all other NES games.
If the Tink4K really as that good (and an outstanding OLED to boot), then this Mike Chi grail is 99% of retro gamers' stop, no questions asked. It and future Tink or Tink-esque products will inevitably replace CRTs when they inevitably die. And that's a good thing! We're going to make it!
We’re going to make it indeed!
Input latency is such an important thing to minimise, it's true. Even certain older LCDs from a decade ago are better at it than some modern ones, so much so I end up playing my PS5 through an older Sony Bravia KDL-40EX503 1080p60 SDR panel rather than the newer Sony X Series 4K120 HDR capable panel I've had for over a year. This seems especially true of 1080p consoles like the PS3 too - seems any time you put anything less than 2160p native res to a modern TV, it lags too much during the upscale. Hopefully the RT4K can finally solve that in my setups.
@@JimBul-j6v 1/4 of a frame of lag @ 1080p/120hz seems pretty damn good. Less than a frame is perfectly acceptable for competitive use, just have to test the monitor mated with the RT4K.
most important setting is "game mode" on new tv's. without it, its unplayable
@@polynektarAgreed, you're correct. I also recommend deep diving your TV settings as well, because even when enabling Game Mode sometimes post-processing settings that add latency are left on, Google TV software based ones like my Sony X series do. Switching off Live Colour, Motionflow and all that kind of junk not only can help cut input lag but also can make for a less over-saturated picture.
this is by far the best review/preview of the retrotink 4K on internet, and I've seen atleast 4 already. Yet your channel has least subscribers?! WTH. You deserve more!
Thank you! 🙏 spread the word!
DANG IT 8-Bit Esquire's basement videos are anything but basement quality. I couldn't stop watching once I started! And I needed to go to bed too! Thanks for the excellent content man. Rooting for your channels success and hope to see more from you soon!
🙏
CRT;”look at what they have to do to imitate even a fraction of our power.”
Great video. You explained these concepts more clearly than some of the other bigger channels.
At 17:34 "I mean, look if you're a speedrunner, a professional smash bros player or just a basic psychopath." 😂 😂
Oh man that ending line got me lol! Great video! I'm a CRT freak, but after watching this I might seriously consider purchasing a Retrotink 4k one day. I'll always love my CRT's, but it would be great to play on my 4k Sony Tv as well.
Dang, called out on the lightgun compatability at the end lol.
I just got a 5X a few months ago and I love it. I don't see myself upgrading immediately, but eventually, I probably will. Great video!
We're still talking about this in my husband's retro speedrunning channel when people ask questions about the difference between this and the 5x and sending viewers your way. IDK if we expressed this with a comment when we first saw your video, so I wanted to come back and make sure it gets said - you did an excellent job demonstrating what this tech is capable of and why someone might be interested in dropping this kind of money on it. ♡
Oh wow! Thank you so much for the kind words! Much appreciated.
LOOOl that ending got me good. Loved the video. You took a lot of great footage for it and really highlighted well the benefits of that extra resolution phosphor detail that the tink 4k simulates. One minor critique of mine is that the sound for your 8-bit esquire logo was a bit startling for me each time it popped up. It could just be that I’m exhausted right now from being jet lagged😂
That does really look excellent. Only problem with this is not only do I need the $750 for the Tink itself, but also need to buy a 4k OLED panel that can do 120Hz. As much as I'd like the desk space back, I think the 20" PVM will be staying for now!
Was looking for this comment. Notable that reviewer is using OLED.
Fantastic video! Can feel you had fun with this one.
You can't replace the magical glow of a CRT. I don't what it is about it, something about the way a CRT glows and flashes is unlike anything else. You'd think OLED would achieve the same thing, but it doesn't.
That said, the retrotink is pretty dang awesome!
This is a good point. A videofile explained to me the other day that CRTs emit a different type of light closer to sunlight - which means they can acheive a greater spectrum of colors that LED or OLED TVs can't. I still want to learn more about about this topic, but it is interesting to think about. I too think CRTs look amazing. I'm excited to see how the RT4K emulates them.
They reckon in about 10 years screen technology will be as good as CRT displays, even then nothing will replace them. they were magical crts displays can reproduce colours that not even OLED can simply because CRT is analog and oled is digital, analog has no boundaries for colour reproduction, digital is 1's and 0's what happens the the data in between these 2 numbers? yup, its not there.
I'm a f dumb ass .... So I work as a Porter for a Uni and actually had a crt in possession... me not being aware enough I got rid of it for "Space Cuase it does consume alot of space especially living in a. Closet in NYC lmaoo .. but Yea I'm a dumb ass
@@StephenC-zh6yh
Plasmas I'm pretty sure had the exact same magical glow. :P
Either way, good luck finding a low hour 32" Sony wega Trinitron CRT(2005) off market place. ;) Most of them do not look as good as they once did brand new out of the box. And they'll continue to get worse and worse as time goes on. We need a good replacement, and it seems QD-OLED + TINK4K is your best bet.
QD-OLED also has it's perks, like perfect blacks, higher brightness, progressive scan, and not being stuck with an ugly big boxy silver CRT Bezel. The 50% motion blur drop from TINK4K's internal BFI(+ HDR SDR brightness boosting) and lower latency makes it good enough for 8-32 bit sprite based games. Just anything, that isn't in first or 3rd person.
I wonder. Have you tried a light gun with the black frame insertion? I was under the impression the reason light guns didn't work with these scalers was due to it failing to render the full black frame before the white box frame. I'd be curious to see if it worked or not.
Also, it's because new tvs are not bright enough.
Maybe newer hdr tvs are. I'm not sure.
CRTs have electron cannons in them. Very bright and powerful.
My knee-jerk reaction was 100% “NO it won’t!” when I read the title. First time I have watched one of your videos and it was very good. $750 for a scaler and $$ for a nice OLED TV with HDR 10 capability and a fair bit of tweaking to get the same functionality of a CRT that somebody can often get for free? Yeah, maybe you can replace it (no Virtua Cop though right ;) and that’s an amazing development but I sure am not going to replace my CRT. I literally just got rid of my frame meister because I was not happy with it because it never matched up to the experience I had on the CRT. I almost never used it . Maybe this would make me happy. Your setup looks great. I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that you have no technical skills. That’s some good lawyer speak ;). Oh yeah and I personally don’t care a ton about lag except in maybe Punch Out on the NES. I feel like some of the hard core lot focus waaaay too much on lag.
great video thank you
its' great that the new gen scaling options like morph and rt4k have such great crt emulation and hdr injection
good time to be a retro gamer
Always a pleasure when i see you uploaded! I know im in for quality content! Thanks dude!
Thank you sir 🙏
LOL THAT ENDING! i need that screenshot and captioned for twitter asap!
@@8bitesquire
Right before the ending I was thinking about light gun games, but then you mentioned it.
Good informative video without too much technical terms.
Thanks!
It’ll definitely do the job for me. No more geometry and convergence issues, perfect reliability. Also my friends will enjoy multiplayer retro games on a large OLED much more than cramming by the smaller CRT.
Thanks for clearing the last of my doubts!
I mean, I don't see myself replacing my $30 CRT for a $750 device. On a more serious note, for what it offers I was fully expecting it to cost $1000 so I'm more than impress to what it has been archieved.
To be fair, that CRT is going to die eventually. CRT tech is so fragile in so many ways, and relied so much on extreme precision such that one component being slightly out of alignment or damaged causes the image on screen to degrade or warp.
These days it’s almost impossible; in my experience, to find a CRT with perfect geometry. So these devices are our future. CRT’s and those who can still maintain them or make parts for them will wane and we won’t have any other choice.
@@deusprogrammer_thekingofspace I think we all know they're the future but we're not there yet, specially at 750 bucks, when they start to cost 100 to 50 bucks you will see people start flocking to them, but until that day comes it's CRTs all the way for 99% of retro gamers who care about authenticity and their games looking right. In fact I've been able to find CRTs with perfect geometry pretty easily, curved ones, PVMs/BVMs and CRT monitors, is mostly the flat ones that have geometry problems unless the set is defective, but it's undeniable that they all are slowly dying as everything and it's all a matter of time before they randomly die one day so hopefully these scalers will come down in price in a few years or the next decade I hope.
@@deusprogrammer_thekingofspace
CRT's that are even 15 years old(Sony WEGA Trinitron - 2005) are all dimmer, colors can lose saturation, black levels can lighten, and it's only going to get worse from here on out unfortunately due to the internal tech guts aging and from hours being poured into them.
A smaller 42" LG C4 OLED + RetroTINK4K is an expensive route to take, which will run you just under 3 grand CAD.
I feel like the Tink4K is crucial because of it's internal black frame insertion, and CRT softening & Scanline options.
But correct me if I'm wrong, because the end result with latency isn't very good >
*Well under a frame(16ms) of lag, just by using Tink4K & FrameLock.
*5 - 8ms of lag by using Tink4K's Black frame insertion. - (Which cuts down half your OLED TV's motion blur.)
*9ms of lag from LG C3 OLED TV"s Game Mode.
That's teetering towards 25-30ms of lag....That's not good. lol Then you have to deal with BFI flicker. That's a pretty penny for lackluster latency results, unless I'm missing something here...
I recall the Dreamcast 240p test suite, along with the Seaman mic, was surprisingly accurate. I tried this ages ago though! Great video!
Congrats on the sponsor. This is actually the one video I really wanted to see vis-a-vis the RT4K after seeing some of the screenshots on Twitter. I wonder if that motion blur is even fixable by Mike Chi. Thanks!
Ps - I LOVE your t-shirt.
I love your chad-ness
What if you pair the Tink's BFI along with the OLED's BFI? Would that reduce the motion blur even further or be counter productive?
Maybe in future they'll need to use rapid colourspace dithering/colour-shifting to try and mimic the much wider spectrum (high CRI) RGB phosphors of CRT's, as the spectrums of modern display subpixels are much narrower and are due to get narrower still. Unfortunately as it stands the colours tend to look too sterile and artificial (albeit very vivid) compared to the more organic look of CRT's. Perhaps the HDR10 aspect of these retrotink 4K shaders helps in this regard but ultimately they're static and thus probably limited in effect.
Interesting. Is that why some people say CRTs just give off a glow that isn't replicated by digital displays?
Did you not turn up your nits on the RT4K? Should be able to control the dimness in the colour menu
Is there a profile yet for my JC Penney 19” color TV?
I’ll be honest. I’ve been a CRT purest for a long time. I don’t judge others on how they want to play, but it’s what I’ve always preferred. That is, until I got an analogue pocket and a dock. Now, I’m really considering getting a RT4K so I can play on my living room tv. Great video as always!
I'd heavily consider a VGA CRT. Those are incredible and support higher resolutions while retaining the benefits of CRTs
@@crestofhonor2349 I have a few. The arcade ones are awesome, but extremely difficult to find today (in any condition) and very difficult to have serviced as they are different than regular arcade monitors or regular TV's and most tech's wont' touch them. And finding parts is tough.
Computer VGA CRT's have a different look than arcade monitors or TV's. Classic arcade games and classic consoles were designed to work on a regular TV tube, also found in retro arcade monitors. Computer VGA monitor tubes were very different, and I tried all kinds of emulators on them. Probably still look better than an LCD, but not nearly as good as the old school tubes. A game console like my Sega Dreamcast however still looked great on my 19" SVGA computer monitor. But that is a much later system.
First time finding this channel, what an awesome and detailed video. Really liked it. It was entertaining but stayed on topic and got to the point quickly. Thanks so much!
Haha! Excellent video, brother. Prolly won't give up my CRTs tho! But definitely gonna splash on one of these bad boys. 🔥🔥🔥
I'm with you
One huge problem with this approach honestly is the burn-in that will be caused from running games in 4:3, I am obviously curious to get a Tink4k eventually but I don't think it can replace my CRT unless I was willing to dedicate an entire OLED to 4:3 content and accept the burn-in that comes with it.
RTINGS recently did a video about this on Ultrawides and 16:9 ratio. Would warn people against doing 4:3 on 16:9 panels because it only took a small amount of hours of 16:9 on an ultrawide to show burn-in.
I've had an LG C1 OLED for a few years, I've played all manners of aspect rations in this TV. Even RTS games that have constant UI, no burn in. I know it happens sometimes but in modern OLEDs the issue is lessened considerably. I'd plug this device to my OLED without fear.
I've never seen your content before, but you definitely gained a new sub. That was a really good comparison breakdown, so I can see why Mike sent you a Tink 4k! I wish I could've grabbed one, as I just got a new OLED a few weeks ago. Like you said, every television is going to be vastly different. I think pairing the Tink 4k with a $500 LED 4k TV would kind of be frivolous, but I'm sure there's people that are gonna do it. Can't wait to see more from ya!
Welcome aboard!
@Oliverbrun90 Oh, I didn't know they made 75 inch CRT's you could hang on a wall 😏
Taking into account what Faroudja linedoublers for projectors sold for back in the day, this little box is a steal.
Great video, exactly what I needed to watch! I'm hoping to snag an RT4K to pair with my LG C1 OLED. I have a pretty decent Sony KV-32FS13 which has been modded to RGB via Mux and its great when I need my light gun fix though I've been looking for a higher end PVM or BVM which can output 480p, 720p, and 1080i but most 20" models are $1-2K+ and may still have technical issues for the price. I think the RT4K should be my last scaler and I can stop my search for a BVM/PVM. I love the advanced CRT scan line generation features, a game changer for folks who love the CRT look! Hope I can purchase one of the first batch models...
Awesome video as always! Way to throw down that Mike Chi challenge. I'm scared now that he may never ever sleep and actually figure out some mad scientist way of figuring that out. 😅
If anyone ever could, it’s him!
The versatility is the draw for me here. Not only do you have a plethora of options, they're high quality and endlessly tweakable too, if you need.
I don't own a lot of retro consoles any more, but I do own a lot of ones that only do 1080p max - Wii U, PS3, Switch. And I would love to be able to scale those up to 2160p so my Sony X Series 4K120 HDR panel will get native resolution with less lag than it's own upscaler. So even for my use case, the RT4K kinda has me covered. That price tag is high but so is the value for those who can afford it. Mike does good work! Can't wait to see John Linnemann review his as well, he's super excited about this product too.
Yeah for $750 I could buy myself quite a few more nice CRT TVs.
I wonder if you're fine with BFI on at an LG G3 or soon LG G4 as its much brighter.
This is impressive and will for sure get one for the HDMI input, HDR injection and advanced shaders. But in my experience, to get something that looks like a good CRT shadow mask on an HD panel with almost no input lag, takes a lot of money and effort. You are better off getting a real CRT if you have the space. It is much easier/cheaper. HD displays would need a combination of good nits, HDR, VRR, BFI, low input lag and good upscaling to even get close, and by the time you get all that equipment ready, you´ll be in the thousands of dollars. On the other hand, if the HD TV is not next to my CRT for me to compare, then with the right CRT shader filters I tend to think it looks OK. Once they are together I can totally see why CRT tech is superior for retro. And also, I understand how most people with only HD displays would find the CRT shaders to be OK or good enough. But not me. "Try harder Mike Chi" killed me.
Finally, i saw the teaser on twitter and followed you; now to grab some popcorn
There's a problem with this comparison. You didn't include price. PRICE SHOULD HAVE BEEN NUMBER 4. I just picked up a great little Akai CRT with composite and S-video. Great picture, no input lag, no motion blur, great brightness. 10$.
Now compare to the new Retrotink 4k. 750 USD. Now add a display capable of low latency, high brightness, HDR10, OLED. Another 2k. Okay so now you are closing in on 3k after tax, vs lets even say 50-100$ for a decent CRT.
I get that it's cool, but without factoring in the price difference, it's kind of moot. So far between 50 and 300 times the price, you can get ALMOST as good as an old CRT. ;)
I don't think I'll be throwing out my CRT any time soon.....
The RT4K has the color order of the phosphors backwards compared to the PVM 14M1J in your video… they’re red-green pairs in the latter, not green-red like in the former.
Insanely high quality content. RUclips gets this stuff for free, insane!
I mean, its ok, but thank you nonetheless lol
Does the original NES Zapper work with this thing? I would seriously consider buying if it does.
Congrats on the sponsor man!!
lol, got recommended this video as I'm on a RetroTink 4K binge right now, and thought 'meh, I'll give this nobody a shot'. I ended up enjoying it very much and even feel I learned (or at least was able to understand) more - even though I've seen the videos from all the big hitters. Hope to see more of you, and will enjoy posting 'I've been watching since 2.5k subs' when you're at 100k. 👍
Aw man, that’s nice to hear! Thank you! - a nobody
Algorithm gods were shining upon you for this one. This video came up in my feed and you had me at the bit about, "I'm just a random dude in my basement filming youtube videos about old video game hardware. I dunno anything"
That honesty was enough for me to sub. Hope great things for this channel going forward.
Thanks man! Welcome aboard!
Everyone is losing their mind over the price, and I understand why. But if this can truly blend like a CRT does, especially for things like dithering, then this is easily the best choice in the long-run. CRTs will degrade over time and the price of premium units are probably only going to go up; which leaves us with the only option for faithful recreations being something like the RetroTink 4K. That doesn’t even mention the fact that this allows you to have an 85”+ CRT-equivalent display.
Like it or not, this is the only long-term option we will have in the end. I’m already considering buying it since it’s much cheaper than buying and moving any of the large 16:9 CRT TVs listed on eBay.
great job in showing this off to us cheers
Thanks for watching!
I’m curious how it handles laserdisc and vhs video for upscaling
What's the CRT trade-in program going to look like? I've got 4, figure that should cover the Tink-4K, right?
got one today, such a great piece of tech.
having the tweaks in FPGA is what makes it virtually lag free
Great video and breakdown man.
Thanks! 🙏
This might be a stupid question (I don't know much about retro hardware): But is it possible to plugin an HDMI device, like a raspberry with RetroPie and the same results with emulation?
Absolutely!
not available until Dec but already Sold out? Is the store page just a placeholder until it goes live?
Yes
Beautiful! When I saw what they were doing with the 4k detail I knew it would be amazing.
The motion blur can be solved by the display strobing the backlight for say 1ms per frame instead of the usual ~16ms. Black frame insertion just reduces this to 8ms. I've modified a monitor to do the 1ms and motion is really clean, though things are naturally dimmer. I'm pretty sure there are modern digital monitors that allows this strobing at normal 60 Hz rate.
So... does the Battleclash bit at the end mean that the zapper, super scope, and menacer won't work with this new product?
Correct. Light guns only work on CRTs (for the most part)
Is there no way at this point to intercept the little white boxes the lightgun needs and display them inbetween frames somehow?
I know this is a controversial topic but a PVM is the worst possible metric for juding retro games as most of the retro systems were designed with consumer televisions in mind and only absolute freaks used PVM for gaming, same for RGB out.
These display methods being used for regular gaming are near anachronistic and extrapolating a benchmark for scalers from them kind of defeats the purpose/borders on over-engineering. Like if that's your jam you might as well emulate, will give you the same overcrisp presenation.
What most people actually fondly remember is consumer grade CRT televisions via composite signal and not some convoluted backwards-logic overpriced way to make analog gaming look like emulation.
But I guess everyone's tastes are different.
Your videos are really great man. And wow this thing looks incredible, unfortunately I JUST finally got s PVM so I'll probably hold off for awhile lol
Welcome to the club! Congrats
People watching this from 20 years ago would see modern LCD panels and think we were crazy for trying to make games look like the old tvs! Funny how things go, I too love the CRT look for these games!
Im a little confused. I thought all CRTs could only produce interlaced image, not progressive. That means that all resolutions ended with an "i" and not a "p" (240i, 360i, etc.)
If a device comes along that lets me use my current lightguns on modern TVs I'll jump on it but as things stand I'll hold on to my CRT and keep my eyes open for a bigger one
will it work with my zapper
Nicely done, explained well. Subscribed!
learned about this from this video; now will definitely pick one up sometime (after the yen gains value and the value drops for customs duties unless it can be sold through a domestic seller...)
I've been buying discs from Japan lately, getting fansubs, and combining them this year. Didn't realize that was the right way to watch.
Does it still have the white border for Sinden light gun use like Retrotink5X? I wanna upgrade but I use my 5X with my PS2 for light gun games on modern screens. With a Pi4 and Arduino you can use the Sinden on an original PS2 as a Guncon2 but the 5X is needed to create the white border needed for the SInden. I don't wanna upgrade to lose that feature.
That's a great question - I didn't see it in menu but I'm sure that's easily added back in a patch
Great ending😂. That was a really good video. Definitely thinking more and more about getting this every day.
Thank you!
The ending of this video is awesome 😂
Love me some Battleclash
I'm super pumped to add one of these to my setup. The RT5X Pro has been king for two years, but I'll move it to the kids room and retire my old OSSC that just hosts our Wii in there.
Amazing how with 5 milliseconds of latency, you still can't play light gun games with your OLED display.
As much as I love the feel and look of a CRT, the invention of LCD screens is the foundation for our technology in the past 30 years. It would be interesting in some alternate reality where technology progressed differently and CRTs were still common tvs in 2024.
Is this only for 4k tvs or can it be still used on Full HD plasma TVs.
Wow, I always had trouble to explain clearly to my friend why CRT were better than flat pannel, but you nailed it good. The end of the video made me laugh. Ps. you have a lot of short material in this video :D
I need someone to explain to me how to do that
LOL that ending
This is the best retrotink review so far. Thanks for this
ITS THE CHIN GUY!!!
@@8bitesquire haha hey I see an impressive chin and I have to say something, for real though, the effort and time it takes to make these long vids is genuinely appreciated
That is awesome. I've been waiting for this since 4k became cheap. The price is too high for me though.
Your SMB close ups are so clean. Are they RGB? WE didn't even have composite video in on our TVs when we played this in the 80's so most were stuck with RF.
Yes it was!
Interesting, whilst I really enjoy the magical look of phosphor dots, my main enjoyment of owning a CRT comes from 1. The aesthetics of having one in my space, including the CURVE of the screen 2. The little noises it makes when switched on/off. So this device doesn’t at all replace the experience of a CRT in my view. Maybe they’ll make curved CRT-looking modern displays one day.
Does retrotink eliminate controller input lag ? Or only visual enhancement?
Can you use the Zapper gun with it?
If your tv has excellent handling of 60hz inputs like the lg oleds with boostmode enabled you will actually increase lag scanconverting the signal to 120hz. because a 60hz device that's connected to the tink can't deliver a whole frames worth of pixels in half the time. The tink will have to buffer atleast half a frame to scanconvert 60hz to 120hz
one of the lg oleds with boostmode enabled and the tink outputing at 60hz will give the the lowest lag
Great video, quick question what camera do you use to record your videos? I notice no refresh lines on the crt monitors which looks amazing. Clearly a decent camera setup
It’s actually a very cheap crop sensor camera