Come on Nick! You're better than that. Im going to pull a new edelbrock carb out of the box and put it on my EFI tuned car and do the same comparison and see how it turns out. Obviously you have to tune a new carb AND you have to let the EFI learn the right way. You have the ability and resources that us little guys don't to do this test the right way and give us some real numbers. Don't let us down!
Love your knowledge and vids Nick. I dropped my Demon for FiTech on my 351C mild cam , AOD and 3:70 gears and never been so happy. They just need time to sort out and adjust by driving 100 miles or so in various conditions. The greatest benefit so far is that my injection system paid for itself in fuels savings alone over past two summers. 8 -11 mpg to 18.7 mpg!! It is like a free upgrade.
Spoken to a few gents who had fitted Holley sniper...they are very pleased and it took the system a few runs for the system to learn. Once settled, it was a case of just turning the ignition on , crank and it fired up. Smooth, no hiccups, hot or cold... Not about HP, just drivability
Happy to see the oil pump trick. A lot of new builders completely overlook checking out the oil system. Even more think that just because a specific part is a fancy new performance part, its going to match and be perfect right out of the box. It never hurts to take a few extra steps and check how different parts mesh with your engine.
Amazing how far aftermarket EFI has come in the last 20 years. This self learning is a game changer for the DIY garage guy. One place you never want a carburetor is while 4 wheeling in a 4x4 going up a hill they flood.
Thanks for the tip on the oil pump. I had the same issue on a 413 is was building . I was grinding smooth the inside of the engine to get rid of a bunch of casting crap left over from the factory and then I looked at that hole in the pump and decided to do what you did I was amazed. So I match fit the holes and also smoothed all the ruff casting surfaces in the pump before assembly.
Cleaning out the casting slag and smoothing out all the oil passages on an engine is always a good thing. Just be careful and don’t hog out the passages as this can lower oil pressure.
Thank you for doing what you do! (Everyone involved with this channel) I'm still studying everyday and working on my car in hopes of even gaining a fraction of the knowledge Nick has. I may sound like a suck up but I respect your abilities and knowledge so much that you've become my "automotive idol". The oil pump tip was something a relatively inexperience guy like myself may miss. Thank you again, this one may be my favourite video yet.
Nick you make me miss my father and grandfather teaching me auto tricks and life tricks. I sure do miss my grandfather’s Oldsmobiles he loved Deltas with big engines, really big ones. My dad was a truck puller in Maine and won his class many years and has more blue ribbons and trophies than I can count. He also had a 1946 Ford Marmon-Harrington 4x4 conversion for WW2, he bought with a front snow blower which was used to clear miles of camp roads at Tim Pond Camps(A Maine Camp)for many years. He dead axled the rear end and ran it with built 454 Chevy and turbo 400 tranny tricked out with a very high stall for truck pulling launches. The converted from Ford’s partner axles were rated at either 1-1/2 ton or 2-1/2 ton, I miss the old cars and trucks, I still love turning wrenches. Did I mention he bought a brand new 1966 Olds 442 in high school which he drag raced at the local (ahem *cough* “strip”) haha. He was poor and bought it with his own hard earned money which he saved for, he loved it, but as I understand he spun a bearing drag racing and it was gone before i was old enough to have seen it in person. Sometimes when I see you with family it makes me see what a great guy you are on the channel, my dad was very very good with engines, carburetors and all manner of running engines. He should of had a shop because every guy in town would stop by for that last bit of tuning that was keeping their rides from being all they could be, my dad would iron out the problem and off they’d go with a big smile. Love ya Nick
Jimmy Dean not true on dumping more fuel, but I think the general consensus here is that this was a pos of a test that was completely biased against fuel injection simply because he doesn’t really understand it and is stubborn. He would do anything to make the efi fail. I tune both regularly, and I know first hand the efi would walk all over a carb when properly tuned.
to be fair there was a lot of things i didn't see him do. not entirely sure that means he didn't do it. seems unlikely. really wasn't too far off in power and i assume fuel injection may even learn more over time and improve?
@@blackericdenice yes, carbs will outperform F/I, as several dyno comparisons have shown. There are various reasons why carbs win in power. I'm not talking about the cheap carbs like an edel. or stock holley, I'm referring to Race Demons and comparable high end stuff. F/I won't touch it. Manufacturers don't use carbs for 2 huge reasons. 1) Emissions. And 2) F/I is easier to tune, manage, and is reliable without messing with it.
I agree with you guys. I am old school, and yes the EFI is a great system after you tune it properly. Give it time and it will work perfect. Easy start in any weather condition and altitudes without any jetting. Performance with EFI is also great. Thank you all for your input.
Do some research on those bolt on efi s and ull realised its garbage i wanted to go wth holley terminator but after doing research isn’t worth it. Now if my car stalls its easy fix on the spot but if ur efi fails no chance of fixing it on the side of the rd 😊
@@grampageorge3407 Thats want all the auto makers think but they all break down sometime. You would think for the price of a mercedes it would come with roadside assist for 15 yrs.
As long as the aftermarket allows it, I'll always go with carburetion. Vacuum secondary 4bbl with manual choke is where it's at. They're cheap, simple, and look good. They're also not as bad on fuel as people make them out too be. I figured out my 406hp (at the crank) Nova, 350ci, is turning 15 or 16mpg hwy. That's not at all the 8mpg people think you'll get.
This Fitech looks like the 30003 unit, which is only rated to go up to 400hp. I say that because it looks identical to the one I have installed on my 5.0 create ford. I had a new 650CFM Holley when I first built my car, and I've taken it to 2 different shops to get tuned. I was always changing jets or trying to adjust it. In the end, the Fitech was easy to install and it feels like I added 100hp to my car. Nick is correct, if you've spent several hundred hours working at a shop and learning how to best tune a carb, then yes it will be better. It's an art, ask any of the guys that used to build and tune carburetors for NASCAR teams. They had rooms dedicated to carbs, to test and tune to get the perfect one for every single track they went to. Now they just use the same Holley EFi unit and hit the track.
Great information on the oil pump. Port match! Just like anything else. The EFI test totally threw me for a loop. I totally thought it would be more horses than a carb. I guess that you learn something new every day.
So a auto tuned vs manually jetted carb? What happens when the weather changes? I would wager if maps were tuned by hand the result would be much closer if not better. Carbs tend to be able to match or beat the peak power but aren't typically as good with average power across the curve. Plus at part throttle EFI tend to be a lot better. A fair comparison would pulling a carb out the box and bolting it on and testing it or let someone tune the EFI.
That particular EFI system needs a minimum of 3 hours running (Driving) to learn, in all situations preferably city and country driving. Idling wont let it learn through the whole rev range, under load, coasting, cruising etc. I have the same system, and watched a heap of youtube videos with the same system, they all say to follow the manufacturers instructions when it comes to the self learning part. I'd rather go for a 3 hour drive than spend a day or 2 tuning a carb.
Opening up the inlet port all the way through the kidney port changes the pressure balance of the ring gear in the pump. On a low pressure system such as an engine's oiling system, it probably won't lead to substantial wear but its something to be aware of.
I had a terrible time getting my 1988 GM camper van to run with the new computer and new 350 TBI engine. Nobody works on them any more. The best help came from 4x4 off roaders who use 80's GM TBI systems on crazy hill angles. The van runs like new after they sent me a few tips.
RadinPlayz12 what would go wrong with a computer that requires you to “fix” it? As long as you don’t half ass the wiring, there shouldn’t ever be any issues. You aren’t going to suddenly have an injector crap out on you either as some have suggested (not you). Efi is ridiculously easy to diagnose and repair. I don’t understand why so many people are still afraid of it.
I was thinking the same thing I have a few mates run fitech EFI and they did around 1000ks or 600 miles then fine tune them after . They seam to like single plane intake more than dual planes to
You need to load the engine at different rpm points and it will sort itself out, and I would bet when it's tuned properly it will make more power than the carb
Yup, I knew a couple racers who got as much HP out of EFI as from a carb once everything was adjusted. For daily driving I can't imagine ever going carb/distributor again. If I could afford it, having an old car to tinker with I could re-live my youth messing around with carbs and distributors that needed regular adjustment.
Poorly designed experiment. The EFI had no opportunity to adjust parameters under high speed and load. The way he ran the test the computer was forced to extrapolate the WOT parameters from idling conditions, which is only a crude approximation. He also only took one data point on his dyno. With multiple high power pulls the computer would adapt and power would increase. Classic case of confirmation bias.
Dane Beck I agree with you 100%. How many pills did they make with a carb to get it tuned? And why didn’t they show the actual carb data? This video would have been interesting, but instead it’s a loss a credibility to the people who produced it.
Any one wanting to buy a Fitech should think long and hard about wasting your hard earned cash on this system. Months of drama and no support for Fitech. Still not running!! Junk!!!
I haven't had a carb for years on anything but my lawnmower. The reliability, drivability, performance and fuel economy you get with EFI is astounding over carbureted engines. Where it really shines is the adaptability for altitude and ambient temperature variations. It was always a pain to tune the carb for a cool damp morning and then re tune it in the afternoon when the sun warmed everything up, if you didn't when racing you stood a good chance of melting a piston.
VetteKid funny name cause I tinkered around with efi and carbs on my 74 vette. I finally stuck with the carb because I get more power and better fuel mileage. So your opinion is just that and opinion and not fact. And if you had to tune for the cool morning and then retune for the afternoon then you don't know how to tune at all. Wrong jet size maybe? Wrong carb size? Dirty carb? I have replaced the air filter on some cars when customers were cursing up and down maybe they should of went to efi. I have never seen a melted piston due to a carb. I have seen melted pistons due to improper timing and bad o2 sensors or dirty injectors combined with a o2 sensor issues. I live in canada and -30 temps are not uncommon during winter and i have never had reliability or drive ability issues. There are a lot of mechanics that should not touch carbs because they understand how they work in their head but they do not have the skills to tune them. I bring my daily EFI car to the dealership for its issues. Very rarely does it come back fixed properly. As soon as the warranty is off of it I will converting it to a carb as well unless I decide to sell if for another classic.
@@bonnivilleblackcherry9745 Wow! I guess you should find a set of points and a distributor when you convert your 2002 Pontiac 3.8 liter back to carburetor. I'm sorry Mr Cherry but I found your comment Funny. I got go now, I'm changing the coolant in my 1968 VW bus. You wouldn't happen to know how much the radiator holds ? would you.The Kid at auto zone said 4.20 liters. Do you think he right.
Thanks Nick for the good oil information. The learning time on the fitec efi takes longer than you showed. I have seen a couple weeks of weekend driving on some cars (Mopar 440's) of several friends that made the change to the same efi. Thanks again.
Its supposed to be run through the rpm range multiple times so it can learn and adjust on full throttle pulls. If it made withing 10 hp on the first pull, it likely would have beaten the carb within the next 3.
I think once the EFI gets the feel for your driving style, the car's mannerisms while driving, and all the other factors of an engine operating in the car itself you'll find the fuel injection is very nice! That ten horsepower will likely come back and maybe even bring a few friends with it. I found that the F.A.S.T. EZ EFI I installed on my 69 Camaro made it so much more enjoyable to drive. I feel like I am fighting the car so much less to get it to feel the way I want it to. Now I have a low end FiTech 400hp kit for my my 85 C10 "Zombietruck" which we found abandoned on my granfather's property. When we got it all in my name nice and legal I got it running and driving, I really look forward to seeing how the EFI wakes up that tired little small block. (And when the old engine lets go I have a nice little upgrade set aside.)
How was the fuel mixture burning, especially at max load? Do your customers have fuel consumption notes, to compare the difference to carburetors? The answer might give a break-even mileage where the cost of EFI is balanced by fuel savings, especially in a truck that does some towing, or a car that is a daily driver.
A good EFI set up and tune will make more power eventually, and if you went to individual intake runners with injectors on each carb would never catch it. But it shows that a EFI system can match a carb system out of a box.
Interesting test EFI Vs Carburetor. Maybe at max revs the old system works best. For originality in a restoration, I'd stay with the 4 barrel. Everyday motoring, cold or hot starts, fuel injection wins. Good tip about aftermarket parts. They always seem to be inaccurate.
Maybe I missed it but I didn't seem to get what the carb was? How much time and mods were into the carb vs just a jet change? I wonder if there should be timing curve changes to work with the EFI that has an O2 sensor. Apples for apples... If you put in more than 10 minutes to get the carb to pull the 439 HP then shouldn't you give the EFI the same consideration to have an honest test?
I run a carb on mine but tell me if I’m wrong I thought that the efi is self learning your not going to be able to get true dyno numbers until you did some pulls already so it knows how much fuel to drop🧐
Great video and Tech Tip! On the Dyno are you locking out the ditributor and using what type of "box" to advance the timing curve? Does that E.F.I. throttle body injection set up runs at what P.S.I.? And does it need a return line?
Daniel Scott. The distributor is not locked, and it works on it's own. The Dyno EFI fuel pressure was set at 60 PSI. And yes, it does have a return line.
Drew 5.9 computers don’t fry often unless it’s mounted where water can easily reach it or you try to apply voltage to a pcm powered circuit like a dummy. O2 sensors don’t go out often either. They don’t go out in a short length of time unless you have a severe exhaust leak after the sensors or you’re running open headers which is not good for power anyway. Efi is retardedly easy to diagnose and repair. I really wish people would stop making excuses for why efi isn’t good. It’s far more reliable than a carb, so I just don’t see the argument about an efi component going out. People who are worried about such things usually have one thing in common...they haven’t spent 10 mins watching a video on how to test efi and are likely intimidated by anything electronic. It’s not voodoo. It’s painfully simple once a person is willing to sit and listen to how it works.
The advantage to fuel injection isn't power but economy. It will vary air/fuel ratio according to engine demands. Where as a carburetor is more of a fixed ratio and therefore less efficient over a wide operating range.
Which model FiTech was this? It looks like the 400hp model (30003), and not the 600 HP model. With only 62lb injectors you're basically choking that big 440. That thing should have the 600hp model on it.
nothing like "properly tuned" carburetor, the main downside is cold start/cold engine performance. I wonder what type of memory that FI system has, if you unhook battery power does it have to relearn again? that would suck considering classic/show/race/off-road vehicles most always have a physical battery disconnect switch ;)
I have about 6 months on this system.. I have it in a classic 63 Ford and the cables come off when parked.. the EFI seems to deal with it just fine.. I know the manual said something about needing 12v constant but the disconnect does not seem to effect it.. (perhaps it is just pulling the tune off the memory instead of stored in volatile memory?)
Still one of my favorite videos to compare bolt on efi to a tuned carb setup. I'd love to see the numbers comparing custom maps to the custom jetting on the carbs.
Carburetors are for lawn mowers (and only for a while longer at that). And you can adjust that EFI to do exactly what that carb is doing at WOT. Plus it will continue to do it regardless of what the weather is doing.....
until the sensors bug out. EFI was developed for pollution control not power. When either the MAP, TPS, O2Sensor, FFS, CPS, MPS etc etc start to work below 100%, you're fucked on power and efficiency
Edwin Henry Blachford, I don't know specifically about EFI's development, but fuel injection was developed for power. Even though it was mechanical. But you're not F'ed if any or all sensors go out, you're just back to a carb type fixed fuel delivery. As in it reverts to a set injector timing, like a set jet in a card. What makes it great is when working, it's like having a Nick and his dyno inside your carburetor, swapping out jet sizes, thousands of times a second... One of the biggest pluses for me, being a electronic engineer, was when they started testing emissions. Electric signals can be easily made to report whatever the socialist want to see. And during the sniff test days, an engine can be made to run as lean and clean (for a short time) as needed, with the push of a button, or via an app on your phone once the open source ECU gets off the ground...
chewbaccathedog, Sorry dude, but there is absolutely no measurable difference in atomized fuel between a fitech type EFI and a perfectly adjusted (for right this second) carb. And even if there was, the carb would be less atomized, as so readily shows when the jets are too big and the accompanying gumming of the inlet valves. If you ever watch a slow mo of a carb at WOT, it's coming out in relatively large droplets like a water hose. Injectors of the last 20 years never release anything other than fully atomized fuel. Plus injectors come in many variations. The latest injectors have are high ohm fast switching atomizers that a carb could never hope to match. It just can't be done with a vacuum draw. And there is no pure liquid dump of raw fuel every time the pedal is mashed. Keep in mind that they ran peak power test based on a self learning EFI system. And any engineer knows to plan for the worst by being conservative in the automatic settings. If they had a tuner there to tweak the timings, that under a grand EFI would have not only smoked that carb, but would maintain peak numbers irregardless of temps, altitude or fuel quality. I luv the simplicity, and locked ECU systems at times make diagnostics an expensive pain, but Carbs are for lawn mowers.... And I'd rather not even use them on lawn mowers...
The EFI HAS an electric fuel pump to prime the system so IF you want to avoid the cranking with a carb just add an electric pump. Other side of cranking is the oil starts to flow through the system while cranking - depending on how long its been since you started the engine, it could start dry with EFI. Better to install a low oil pressure switch on the EFI system to stop ignition until minimum oil pressure of 15# is attained or add an Accusmp oiling system..
Monte Stu it actually learns quite a bit, the surging is how it's learning for fuel mixtures and such, and once it learns that it can do on the fly changes when you go WOT.
Man "I just bolted a carburetor on my engine and I just let it idle. all the needle valves and nozzle sizes set them selves, it was so easy" said no mechanic ever. Comparing apples to tomatoes in this video.
Monte Stu ECM notes unstable idle and adjusts duty cycle of injection and in some systems the timing is adjusted automatically also. All new cars use this tech from crank sensor frequency and manifold vacuum and throttle position sensor out put signals. Diesels also .Shalom
I don't want to disparage the FitTech EFI, but this is hardly the type of EFI that will get you great power. It is throttle body injected as opposed to sequentially injected port EFI (not in itself a huge performance hit). But, it doesn't even control timing and you can pick up tons of power there. The "Auto-tune" feature while nice isn't a replacement for EFI system calibration. Spend a few more bucks and build a true programmable EFI system and you will see real gains.
question....... why old school mechanical over vacumn advance distributor ? Computer / Fuel injection cannot adjust timing on fly with that set upand how much base and total was in that distributor. Thanks
Were those engines up to temp properly? There is just no way a Fuel injected set up is going to be whipped by a carb set up when both are tuned in properly.
As we did in the 50s and 60s and.... Newer generations need to be told this because it isn't a secret or trick. Just info that needs to be put out there. RUclips is a great teaching aid ;)
Know many don't like fuel injection, but knowing that carburetors flood an engine with gas at starts, washing oil from cylinder lubrication, and causing much more wear than FI, also problems with idle and performance over all ranges, with a company like FITech would seriously look at them on future projects..and this is from a guy who has been rebuilding and setting up carbs since he was 13, in fact by 15 many people were bring their problem child carbs to me to rebuild. Wonder how that HP would change after awhile of that system getting learning about higher RPM situations.
Hi Nick... I have 2 questions...1} i have a 1988 Dodge Dakota V-6 throter injector , automatic , 2-wheel drive...this ingnition can modification for more Hi-energy sistem...2) for what this truck have probrem whit transmition { A-500 whit over drive} the over- drive broken much time {4 time } and not put heavy cargo to the truck...???
does carboraitor give you more horsepower then fule injection i have a 93 dodge Dakota with the 318 it's fule injection now I'm just trying to find ways to get more horsepower
At 7:07: The reason why you have to crank the engine more on a carbureted engine when it sits for a couple weeks is because it uses a MECHANICAL fuel pump. If you were to replace it with an electric fuel pump (like what is found on the EFI system), you wouldn't have to do that.
Nick how was the torque curve ? the fuel injection usally has more bottom end torque would you be able to show the results if possible . I know this was a while ago .Thanks for shareing all the knoledge over the years ! Joe
I went from quick fuel 750 to a Fitech efi power adder better starts , no smell, timing control, better power under the curve , went faster when I spray they same amount of nitrous because on a carb you aim rich and afr chosen with efi... also better travelling across the highlands and weather doesn’t matter.. if you took most cars and properly tuned the efi with timing control you would most likely be faster with better drivability on average
Have just started with doing retrofits.. cost wise, there is little to be saved running a carb today.. I have that FiTech on a 514 BBF (385 engine) Felice built getting 18mpg on "boring" mode.. I did this just because after 40 some years of doing the "cold holley" palsy foot jiggle, I want something easier when cold.. This was it.. I can let anyone jump in , start up and drive away.. not bad for an old 63 Ford... I would like to see some tuning time on the EFI .. a 1/10 here or there on fuel and timing might just yield better numbers.. I know I would never get the MPG on my carb tune.. I am going to try the Holley system next...
Engine Masters did testing on this, full throttle is pretty much the same on carb or that type of efi, part throttle driving would be better on efi i think, but since it's not a multi port efi setup it doesnt change much, its pretty much just a electric carb
The distributor vacuum advanced was unplugged. Why is this done with EFI? Was it unplugged with the carburetor also? Should have shown carburetor set up. Just saying? Timming is everything.
Some EFI engines also computerize the spark timing. The distributor is then locked in place, and the computer sets off a spark according to the programming. There were also some carb engines that had computerized spark timing, the Chrysler "Electronic Lean Burn" was built that way. GM used computerized spark on almost every carb engine by 1981 and continued it until carb engines were discontinued.
Almost and heaps electric stuff to go wrong unlike carby which needs to be slightly adjusted once in 3yrs + personally i havent touched mine after 4 years no issues
An ΕFI mod needs a proper map. The default settings are there for reference. Only a qualified mechanic can adjust them properly. Carbs on the other hand are easy to setup (dated tech).
Agree in the first statement but not the second. Depending on the carb, you can play with jets, accelerator pumps, idle mixture, choke, and for bigger gains you can mess with intake plenum. Setting up a carb for everyday driving, a shade tree mechanic can do it, but for performance it takes are artist. Out of the box, you HAVE to know how to adjust a carb on a new install, as shown on this video, EFI is mostly install it and then let it do its thing. I had a tech tweak my RAM and he used a computer...had another mechanic tweak my old Jeep with the Holly and he had to lift the hood and get a little dirty.....different skills.
Not sure if this has been pointed out, but that appears to be the entry level that is recommended for 150 up to 400hp. I would say you need both a bigger unit and maybe more tune time. Loved the video though.
Sure you can adjust a carb to get the same numbers on any given day at any given time . However the EFI is going to change day to day and you will be back in the carb to adjust it to catch up. Its just fuel and air being delivered by the same basic means. Now if this was port injected the game changes even more... The carb is in the past .
@silverbird58 Most of us hoped panzie asses were in the past too but we all can't have what we want now can we. Let me guess, you're one of those idiots who think electric vehicles are the savior and not having a f'ing clue how much pollution the production of them cause compared to a gasoline engine.
430 HP was impressive for a 440 back in the day but these days with all new performance parts made 9ver the years that thing should be pumping out around 550 or more easily
Nick Panaritis. Predator carbs self adjust from a minimum of 390 cfm all the up to 930 cfm. They are a very simple design. Yet advanced enough to allow you to mount them in any position. Even upside down. This is due to the fact that they lack floats and many other parts. In many types of racing they are the only specialty designed carburetor. That will allow you to win first place. Over the other carburetor designs.
EFI will probably save fuel. The system adapts to changing weather and altitude in ways that a carb can't. Also, these EFI systems have an oxygen sensor that monitors air fuel ratios and adapts, however, some smog era carbs also used oxygen sensors. However, there is a way to save fuel with carb setups. Sometimes you can cruise with a fuel air mixture leaner than 14.7:1. The right carb setup may allow it, but if you want to do that with EFI, you must pay extra for a system that supports wide band oxygen sensors.
If you had a problem with the EFI the parts store isn't going to have parts for it since it's not a factory type system.that's where your gonna get the blank stares from. Unless all the components on Fitech or Holley sniper use GM, Ford, Chrysler pieces. If you had a problem with a carb you can get a rebuild kit or most stores have an edelbrock carb on the shelf. I ran I holley Stealth Ram EFI on my Trans Am which was just an intake but it used all the other factory type pieces. So getting parts was easy.
If the Parts store sells the system than they can order the parts from the Manufacturer just like they can if you have a problem with a Holley carb they pick up the phone and call holley with the part Number ..
The fuel injection learns when making full throttle runs over a few pulls that gives the ECU time to learn from the wide ban O2 sensor and not just idle speed.
It would be interesting to compare a multiport fuel injection manifold to the FiTech throttle body EFI and the carburetor. I suspect the multiport system would be the winner.
LOOKS LIKE THE ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP IS KINKING OR PULLING THE RUBBER HOSE SHUT IN THE BEGINNING OF THE VIDEO WITH INJECTION.sorry about the caps direct port fuel injection will always make far more torque but needs a ton of sensors to use.
Come on Nick! You're better than that. Im going to pull a new edelbrock carb out of the box and put it on my EFI tuned car and do the same comparison and see how it turns out. Obviously you have to tune a new carb AND you have to let the EFI learn the right way. You have the ability and resources that us little guys don't to do this test the right way and give us some real numbers. Don't let us down!
Love your knowledge and vids Nick. I dropped my Demon for FiTech on my 351C mild cam , AOD and 3:70 gears and never been so happy. They just need time to sort out and adjust by driving 100 miles or so in various conditions. The greatest benefit so far is that my injection system paid for itself in fuels savings alone over past two summers. 8 -11 mpg to 18.7 mpg!! It is like a free upgrade.
Are you still running the Fitech?
Spoken to a few gents who had fitted Holley sniper...they are very pleased and it took the system a few runs for the system to learn. Once settled, it was a case of just turning the ignition on , crank and it fired up. Smooth, no hiccups, hot or cold... Not about HP, just drivability
Happy to see the oil pump trick. A lot of new builders completely overlook checking out the oil system. Even more think that just because a specific part is a fancy new performance part, its going to match and be perfect right out of the box. It never hurts to take a few extra steps and check how different parts mesh with your engine.
There are also several other must do oiling mods for B/RB engines.
Amazing how far aftermarket EFI has come in the last 20 years. This self learning is a game changer for the DIY garage guy. One place you never want a carburetor is while 4 wheeling in a 4x4 going up a hill they flood.
thare are ways to make them work on hills! flote spring and a copper tube!!! efi is for weak mechanic's.
Thanks for the tip on the oil pump. I had the same issue on a 413 is was building . I was grinding smooth the inside of the engine to get rid of a bunch of casting crap left over from the factory and then I looked at that hole in the pump and decided to do what you did I was amazed. So I match fit the holes and also smoothed all the ruff casting surfaces in the pump before assembly.
Cleaning out the casting slag and smoothing out all the oil passages on an engine is always a good thing. Just be careful and don’t hog out the passages as this can lower oil pressure.
Thank you for doing what you do! (Everyone involved with this channel) I'm still studying everyday and working on my car in hopes of even gaining a fraction of the knowledge Nick has. I may sound like a suck up but I respect your abilities and knowledge so much that you've become my "automotive idol". The oil pump tip was something a relatively inexperience guy like myself may miss. Thank you again, this one may be my favourite video yet.
Always something cool going on at the "old school" Nick's Shop. What a nice guy, helpful, down to earth. Thank you Nick. Larry from Maine
Thanks for watching in beautiful Maine, Larry.
Nick you make me miss my father and grandfather teaching me auto tricks and life tricks. I sure do miss my grandfather’s Oldsmobiles he loved Deltas with big engines, really big ones. My dad was a truck puller in Maine and won his class many years and has more blue ribbons and trophies than I can count. He also had a 1946 Ford Marmon-Harrington 4x4 conversion for WW2, he bought with a front snow blower which was used to clear miles of camp roads at Tim Pond Camps(A Maine Camp)for many years. He dead axled the rear end and ran it with built 454 Chevy and turbo 400 tranny tricked out with a very high stall for truck pulling launches. The converted from Ford’s partner axles were rated at either 1-1/2 ton or 2-1/2 ton, I miss the old cars and trucks, I still love turning wrenches.
Did I mention he bought a brand new 1966 Olds 442 in high school which he drag raced at the local (ahem *cough* “strip”) haha. He was poor and bought it with his own hard earned money which he saved for, he loved it, but as I understand he spun a bearing drag racing and it was gone before i was old enough to have seen it in person. Sometimes when I see you with family it makes me see what a great guy you are on the channel, my dad was very very good with engines, carburetors and all manner of running engines. He should of had a shop because every guy in town would stop by for that last bit of tuning that was keeping their rides from being all they could be, my dad would iron out the problem and off they’d go with a big smile.
Love ya Nick
Micheal F. I love your story. I am like your Dad. On Saturdays we have coffee and donuts, and tweak or tune someone's car. Thanks for watching.
He didn't adjust anything or change the timing I don't think he wanted the fuel injection to win
blackman8795 right...then he said the carb won because it made more power. If you dump more gas in the engine, of course it’s gonna make more power.
Jimmy Dean not true on dumping more fuel, but I think the general consensus here is that this was a pos of a test that was completely biased against fuel injection simply because he doesn’t really understand it and is stubborn. He would do anything to make the efi fail. I tune both regularly, and I know first hand the efi would walk all over a carb when properly tuned.
to be fair there was a lot of things i didn't see him do. not entirely sure that means he didn't do it. seems unlikely. really wasn't too far off in power and i assume fuel injection may even learn more over time and improve?
blackman8795 Anyone who say a carb can run as good as FI is lying. If that was true. All GM cars would have carbs.
@@blackericdenice yes, carbs will outperform F/I, as several dyno comparisons have shown. There are various reasons why carbs win in power. I'm not talking about the cheap carbs like an edel. or stock holley, I'm referring to Race Demons and comparable high end stuff. F/I won't touch it. Manufacturers don't use carbs for 2 huge reasons. 1) Emissions. And 2) F/I is easier to tune, manage, and is reliable without messing with it.
I love all the little things nick knows to do that most people would overlook just like the oil pump tip.
I'd be interested in seeing the curves laid over each other. Peek HP is not a very useful measure alone.
DJ Wadholm, Yes , you are correct. The more flat the curve, even though less HP, can be a faster car.
DJ Wadholm. Exactly has nothing to do with it
Goes to show these guys are the old school dudes that think carbs are better because a whopping 30 hp lol
Fuel injection is good for my wife, I prefer a carb all the way around.
AND....the amount of fuel consumed! If it gets more mpg with about the same hp, its obviously more efficient.
I agree with you guys. I am old school, and yes the EFI is a great system after you tune it properly. Give it time and it will work perfect. Easy start in any weather condition and altitudes without any jetting. Performance with EFI is also great. Thank you all for your input.
Thanks for getting back Nick. As soon as I can get a passport,I,m heading up to see the dyno room for myself!
Do some research on those bolt on efi s and ull realised its garbage i wanted to go wth holley terminator but after doing research isn’t worth it. Now if my car stalls its easy fix on the spot but if ur efi fails no chance of fixing it on the side of the rd 😊
I was speaking of new cars,and if you built your ride properly you wont be on the side of the road!
@@grampageorge3407 Thats want all the auto makers think but they all break down sometime. You would think for the price of a mercedes it would come with roadside assist for 15 yrs.
Thanks for the test. I have been looking into fuel injection for my 383 mopar stroker. Also thanks for the oil pump tip.
As long as the aftermarket allows it, I'll always go with carburetion. Vacuum secondary 4bbl with manual choke is where it's at. They're cheap, simple, and look good. They're also not as bad on fuel as people make them out too be. I figured out my 406hp (at the crank) Nova, 350ci, is turning 15 or 16mpg hwy. That's not at all the 8mpg people think you'll get.
But if you drive it to dinner you smell like exhaust. Fuel injection all day
thanks for the tip on the oil pump on the b rb motor,i've found the pressure valve sticks a lot also,oh well 40+ year old engines need lots of love
This Fitech looks like the 30003 unit, which is only rated to go up to 400hp.
I say that because it looks identical to the one I have installed on my 5.0 create ford. I had a new 650CFM Holley when I first built my car, and I've taken it to 2 different shops to get tuned. I was always changing jets or trying to adjust it. In the end, the Fitech was easy to install and it feels like I added 100hp to my car.
Nick is correct, if you've spent several hundred hours working at a shop and learning how to best tune a carb, then yes it will be better. It's an art, ask any of the guys that used to build and tune carburetors for NASCAR teams. They had rooms dedicated to carbs, to test and tune to get the perfect one for every single track they went to. Now they just use the same Holley EFi unit and hit the track.
Great information on the oil pump. Port match! Just like anything else.
The EFI test totally threw me for a loop. I totally thought it would be more horses than a carb.
I guess that you learn something new every day.
So a auto tuned vs manually jetted carb? What happens when the weather changes? I would wager if maps were tuned by hand the result would be much closer if not better. Carbs tend to be able to match or beat the peak power but aren't typically as good with average power across the curve. Plus at part throttle EFI tend to be a lot better.
A fair comparison would pulling a carb out the box and bolting it on and testing it or let someone tune the EFI.
An improperly tuned EFI system vs a dyno jetted carb.
Thanks Nick. That tip about the oil pump shows that details matter. As for the fuel injection, it’s a must have for my 4 x 4‘s.
That particular EFI system needs a minimum of 3 hours running (Driving) to learn, in all situations preferably city and country driving. Idling wont let it learn through the whole rev range, under load, coasting, cruising etc. I have the same system, and watched a heap of youtube videos with the same system, they all say to follow the manufacturers instructions when it comes to the self learning part. I'd rather go for a 3 hour drive than spend a day or 2 tuning a carb.
Opening up the inlet port all the way through the kidney port changes the pressure balance of the ring gear in the pump. On a low pressure system such as an engine's oiling system, it probably won't lead to substantial wear but its something to be aware of.
for offroad applications you can't beat efi because it won't flood on steep angles.
TRUE BUT SOME PEOPLE STILL LIKE PREDATOR FOR OFF ROAD AS WELL, YOU CANT FIX A COMPUTER IN THE BUSH
I had a terrible time getting my 1988 GM camper van to run with the new computer and new 350 TBI engine. Nobody works on them any more. The best help came from 4x4 off roaders who use 80's GM TBI systems on crazy hill angles. The van runs like new after they sent me a few tips.
RadinPlayz12 what would go wrong with a computer that requires you to “fix” it? As long as you don’t half ass the wiring, there shouldn’t ever be any issues. You aren’t going to suddenly have an injector crap out on you either as some have suggested (not you). Efi is ridiculously easy to diagnose and repair. I don’t understand why so many people are still afraid of it.
That’s a great tip for oil pumps and oil pressure and engine longevity. Thanks Nick!
Give that fuel injection a little more time to adjust, and i bet its dyno numbers will increase. Great video Nick. Thanks for the tips
Va Hoss. Yes, the EFI needs more time to learn.
I was thinking the same thing I have a few mates run fitech EFI and they did around 1000ks or 600 miles then fine tune them after . They seam to like single plane intake more than dual planes to
You need to load the engine at different rpm points and it will sort itself out, and I would bet when it's tuned properly it will make more power than the carb
Brett Wilkins kind of what i was thinking. Even NASCAR went to fuel injection. So there must be more positive benefits
Yup, I knew a couple racers who got as much HP out of EFI as from a carb once everything was adjusted. For daily driving I can't imagine ever going carb/distributor again. If I could afford it, having an old car to tinker with I could re-live my youth messing around with carbs and distributors that needed regular adjustment.
Poorly designed experiment. The EFI had no opportunity to adjust parameters under high speed and load. The way he ran the test the computer was forced to extrapolate the WOT parameters from idling conditions, which is only a crude approximation. He also only took one data point on his dyno. With multiple high power pulls the computer would adapt and power would increase. Classic case of confirmation bias.
Dane Beck I agree with you 100%. How many pills did they make with a carb to get it tuned? And why didn’t they show the actual carb data? This video would have been interesting, but instead it’s a loss a credibility to the people who produced it.
Exactly, they would get true data from the NASCAR boys who have been running EFI for a few years before the carb.
Any one wanting to buy a Fitech should think long and hard about wasting
your hard earned cash on this system. Months of drama and no support
for Fitech. Still not running!! Junk!!!
I haven't had a carb for years on anything but my lawnmower. The reliability, drivability, performance and fuel economy you get with EFI is astounding over carbureted engines. Where it really shines is the adaptability for altitude and ambient temperature variations. It was always a pain to tune the carb for a cool damp morning and then re tune it in the afternoon when the sun warmed everything up, if you didn't when racing you stood a good chance of melting a piston.
fuel economy? you ever hear of the pogue carburetor?
VetteKid funny name cause I tinkered around with efi and carbs on my 74 vette. I finally stuck with the carb because I get more power and better fuel mileage. So your opinion is just that and opinion and not fact. And if you had to tune for the cool morning and then retune for the afternoon then you don't know how to tune at all. Wrong jet size maybe? Wrong carb size? Dirty carb? I have replaced the air filter on some cars when customers were cursing up and down maybe they should of went to efi.
I have never seen a melted piston due to a carb. I have seen melted pistons due to improper timing and bad o2 sensors or dirty injectors combined with a o2 sensor issues.
I live in canada and -30 temps are not uncommon during winter and i have never had reliability or drive ability issues.
There are a lot of mechanics that should not touch carbs because they understand how they work in their head but they do not have the skills to tune them. I bring my daily EFI car to the dealership for its issues. Very rarely does it come back fixed properly. As soon as the warranty is off of it I will converting it to a carb as well unless I decide to sell if for another classic.
@@bonnivilleblackcherry9745 Wow! I guess you should find a set of points and a distributor when you convert your 2002 Pontiac 3.8 liter back to carburetor. I'm sorry Mr Cherry but I found your comment Funny. I got go now, I'm changing the coolant in my 1968 VW bus. You wouldn't happen to know how much the radiator holds ? would you.The Kid at auto zone said 4.20 liters. Do you think he right.
On the initial rev you can see the throttle body being pulled back by the linkage. It looked lose. Possible vacuum leak?
Keep making these great videos Nick, they are full important information and I am watching all the time !
Thanks Nick for the good oil information. The learning time on the fitec efi takes longer than you showed. I have seen a couple weeks of weekend driving on some cars (Mopar 440's) of several friends that made the change to the same efi. Thanks again.
1badstroker. True, it needs more learning time.
Its supposed to be run through the rpm range multiple times so it can learn and adjust on full throttle pulls. If it made withing 10 hp on the first pull, it likely would have beaten the carb within the next 3.
the grenade was a mills bomb no. 5 mk.1 first issued may 1915 one of the first grenade designs
I think once the EFI gets the feel for your driving style, the car's mannerisms while driving, and all the other factors of an engine operating in the car itself you'll find the fuel injection is very nice! That ten horsepower will likely come back and maybe even bring a few friends with it. I found that the F.A.S.T. EZ EFI I installed on my 69 Camaro made it so much more enjoyable to drive. I feel like I am fighting the car so much less to get it to feel the way I want it to. Now I have a low end FiTech 400hp kit for my my 85 C10 "Zombietruck" which we found abandoned on my granfather's property. When we got it all in my name nice and legal I got it running and driving, I really look forward to seeing how the EFI wakes up that tired little small block. (And when the old engine lets go I have a nice little upgrade set aside.)
How was the fuel mixture burning, especially at max load? Do your customers have fuel consumption notes, to compare the difference to carburetors? The answer might give a break-even mileage where the cost of EFI is balanced by fuel savings, especially in a truck that does some towing, or a car that is a daily driver.
60and. R. My customer is aware of how he is to tune it in his truck. Thanks for input.
It needs to learn WOT too...
Nick is OLD SCHOOL he learned from the best also through trial and error.
Area under the curve?
407ForRent not relevant he likes carbs and doesn't want to change his mind
A good EFI set up and tune will make more power eventually, and if you went to individual intake runners with injectors on each carb would never catch it. But it shows that a EFI system can match a carb system out of a box.
Interesting test EFI Vs Carburetor. Maybe at max revs the old system works best. For originality in a restoration, I'd stay with the 4 barrel. Everyday motoring, cold or hot starts, fuel injection wins. Good tip about aftermarket parts. They always seem to be inaccurate.
Maybe I missed it but I didn't seem to get what the carb was? How much time and mods were into the carb vs just a jet change? I wonder if there should be timing curve changes to work with the EFI that has an O2 sensor. Apples for apples... If you put in more than 10 minutes to get the carb to pull the 439 HP then shouldn't you give the EFI the same consideration to have an honest test?
I run a carb on mine but tell me if I’m wrong I thought that the efi is self learning your not going to be able to get true dyno numbers until you did some pulls already so it knows how much fuel to drop🧐
Great video and Tech Tip! On the Dyno are you locking out the ditributor and using what type of "box" to advance the timing curve? Does that E.F.I. throttle body injection set up runs at what P.S.I.? And does it need a return line?
Daniel Scott. The distributor is not locked, and it works on it's own. The Dyno EFI fuel pressure was set at 60 PSI. And yes, it does have a return line.
carbs 'n point are neat if you like fiddling with them. Well tuned modern engines will always be more power dense with better driveabilty.
until the computer fry's or o2 sensor goes out or really anything electrical goes off then well your stuck and the carb will keep going
Drew 5.9 computers don’t fry often unless it’s mounted where water can easily reach it or you try to apply voltage to a pcm powered circuit like a dummy. O2 sensors don’t go out often either. They don’t go out in a short length of time unless you have a severe exhaust leak after the sensors or you’re running open headers which is not good for power anyway. Efi is retardedly easy to diagnose and repair. I really wish people would stop making excuses for why efi isn’t good. It’s far more reliable than a carb, so I just don’t see the argument about an efi component going out. People who are worried about such things usually have one thing in common...they haven’t spent 10 mins watching a video on how to test efi and are likely intimidated by anything electronic. It’s not voodoo. It’s painfully simple once a person is willing to sit and listen to how it works.
Also another consideration is what carbuerator was used? Are we comparing a 600cfm carb to a 400 cfm throttle body Injection unit?
The advantage to fuel injection isn't power but economy. It will vary air/fuel ratio according to engine demands. Where as a carburetor is more of a fixed ratio and therefore less efficient over a wide operating range.
Which model FiTech was this? It looks like the 400hp model (30003), and not the 600 HP model. With only 62lb injectors you're basically choking that big 440. That thing should have the 600hp model on it.
nothing like "properly tuned" carburetor, the main downside is cold start/cold engine performance. I wonder what type of memory that FI system has, if you unhook battery power does it have to relearn again? that would suck considering classic/show/race/off-road vehicles most always have a physical battery disconnect switch ;)
throttle bottle. The night before we stayed late to tune this EFI to perfection. Next day for video, it had a mind of it's own.
I have about 6 months on this system.. I have it in a classic 63 Ford and the cables come off when parked.. the EFI seems to deal with it just fine.. I know the manual said something about needing 12v constant but the disconnect does not seem to effect it.. (perhaps it is just pulling the tune off the memory instead of stored in volatile memory?)
@@randalljames1 the computer writes the fueling information into an EPROM so you could disconnect it for 3years and the same info would be there
Still one of my favorite videos to compare bolt on efi to a tuned carb setup. I'd love to see the numbers comparing custom maps to the custom jetting on the carbs.
I remember when I had the job of holding the light for my dad. I learned a lot from watching.
At my house holding the timing light came with being yelled at.
Great catch, Nick! I'd also chamfer the entrance of the hole in the block so that the oil can move more freely into the block from the pump.
You're living the dream there Nick! :-) Thanks for sharing!
Hey Nick. What do u know about these carburetors? 17-1 fuel mix. Thanks fish carb ( can't load picture ) ?
Carburetors are for lawn mowers (and only for a while longer at that). And you can adjust that EFI to do exactly what that carb is doing at WOT. Plus it will continue to do it regardless of what the weather is doing.....
until the sensors bug out. EFI was developed for pollution control not power. When either the MAP, TPS, O2Sensor, FFS, CPS, MPS etc etc start to work below 100%, you're fucked on power and efficiency
Edwin Henry Blachford, I don't know specifically about EFI's development, but fuel injection was developed for power. Even though it was mechanical. But you're not F'ed if any or all sensors go out, you're just back to a carb type fixed fuel delivery. As in it reverts to a set injector timing, like a set jet in a card. What makes it great is when working, it's like having a Nick and his dyno inside your carburetor, swapping out jet sizes, thousands of times a second...
One of the biggest pluses for me, being a electronic engineer, was when they started testing emissions. Electric signals can be easily made to report whatever the socialist want to see. And during the sniff test days, an engine can be made to run as lean and clean (for a short time) as needed, with the push of a button, or via an app on your phone once the open source ECU gets off the ground...
chewbaccathedog, Sorry dude, but there is absolutely no measurable difference in atomized fuel between a fitech type EFI and a perfectly adjusted (for right this second) carb. And even if there was, the carb would be less atomized, as so readily shows when the jets are too big and the accompanying gumming of the inlet valves. If you ever watch a slow mo of a carb at WOT, it's coming out in relatively large droplets like a water hose. Injectors of the last 20 years never release anything other than fully atomized fuel.
Plus injectors come in many variations. The latest injectors have are high ohm fast switching atomizers that a carb could never hope to match. It just can't be done with a vacuum draw. And there is no pure liquid dump of raw fuel every time the pedal is mashed.
Keep in mind that they ran peak power test based on a self learning EFI system. And any engineer knows to plan for the worst by being conservative in the automatic settings. If they had a tuner there to tweak the timings, that under a grand EFI would have not only smoked that carb, but would maintain peak numbers irregardless of temps, altitude or fuel quality. I luv the simplicity, and locked ECU systems at times make diagnostics an expensive pain, but Carbs are for lawn mowers.... And I'd rather not even use them on lawn mowers...
Mat Helm my buddy spent $3500 to lose 28 hp
Cana box
Yea, ya can't fix stupid.... Even with $3500 dollars...
The EFI HAS an electric fuel pump to prime the system so IF you want to avoid the cranking with a carb just add an electric pump. Other side of cranking is the oil starts to flow through the system while cranking - depending on how long its been since you started the engine, it could start dry with EFI. Better to install a low oil pressure switch on the EFI system to stop ignition until minimum oil pressure of 15# is attained or add an Accusmp oiling system..
Always a pleasure in seeing your clips, very educational to learn different things....you are a master of what you do. Keep it up......
Nick would be an excellent auto shop teacher share his knowledge with future generations his knowledge is invaluable
Not sure how much the EFI learned by idling.
Monte Stu it actually learns quite a bit, the surging is how it's learning for fuel mixtures and such, and once it learns that it can do on the fly changes when you go WOT.
Man "I just bolted a carburetor on my engine and I just let it idle. all the needle valves and nozzle sizes set them selves, it was so easy" said no mechanic ever. Comparing apples to tomatoes in this video.
You're incorrect.
Monte Stu ECM notes unstable idle and adjusts duty cycle of injection and in some systems the timing is adjusted automatically also. All new cars use this tech from crank sensor frequency and manifold vacuum and throttle position sensor out put signals. Diesels also .Shalom
From what I've read the CPU on the dominator is only sopose to take 10 minutes
What kind of intake manifold is that single or dual plain? EFI can be fussy with intake manifolds.
Andtew Vasilakis. It was a dual plane intake manifold. I should have gone with a single plane manifold.
Thanks for reply, I suspected that was what was happening.
I don't want to disparage the FitTech EFI, but this is hardly the type of EFI that will get you great power. It is throttle body injected as opposed to sequentially injected port EFI (not in itself a huge performance hit). But, it doesn't even control timing and you can pick up tons of power there. The "Auto-tune" feature while nice isn't a replacement for EFI system calibration.
Spend a few more bucks and build a true programmable EFI system and you will see real gains.
Yes electronic spark advance is a very important.
question....... why old school mechanical over vacumn advance distributor ? Computer / Fuel injection cannot adjust timing on fly with that set upand how much base and total was in that distributor. Thanks
I ran a 351 clevland, tunnel ram, two 450 cfm 4bbl carbs, holley 110gph electric pump. Ignition on, carbs fills fuel as E.F.I. Starts good.
Were those engines up to temp properly? There is just no way a Fuel injected set up is going to be whipped by a carb set up when both are tuned in properly.
How come most drag racers are going EFI now?
so they can tune power up and down according to boost which they can now change with a laptop too. At least the street racers do.
I did that trick with the oil pump way back in the 80`s along w/other tricks
As we did in the 50s and 60s and....
Newer generations need to be told this because it isn't a secret or trick. Just info that needs to be put out there. RUclips is a great teaching aid ;)
Know many don't like fuel injection, but knowing that carburetors flood an engine with gas at starts, washing oil from cylinder lubrication, and causing much more wear than FI, also problems with idle and performance over all ranges, with a company like FITech would seriously look at them on future projects..and this is from a guy who has been rebuilding and setting up carbs since he was 13, in fact by 15 many people were bring their problem child carbs to me to rebuild. Wonder how that HP would change after awhile of that system getting learning about higher RPM situations.
Hi Nick... I have 2 questions...1} i have a 1988 Dodge Dakota V-6 throter injector , automatic , 2-wheel drive...this ingnition can modification for more Hi-energy sistem...2) for what this truck have probrem whit transmition { A-500 whit over drive} the over- drive broken much time {4 time } and not put heavy cargo to the truck...???
as my shop teacher would say "you could see that with safety glasses on"
Nick, Nice tip on the oil pump passages. I plan to go to a high volume pump on my 440 soon. The 'Submarine Charger' as you called it :)
does carboraitor give you more horsepower then fule injection i have a 93 dodge Dakota with the 318 it's fule injection now I'm just trying to find ways to get more horsepower
Buy a 350 and try again another day. 318 is basically a big v6
Barney W. Try installing a 360 "5.9" if you can find one. Sorry for the late reply.
At 7:07: The reason why you have to crank the engine more on a carbureted engine when it sits for a couple weeks is because it uses a MECHANICAL fuel pump. If you were to replace it with an electric fuel pump (like what is found on the EFI system), you wouldn't have to do that.
I'll stick with my 850 quick fuel even though gas mileage suffers alot more and sometimes cold starts suck. EFI is cool, but it ain't for everybody.
Amen . . .I can’t justify the cost of a EFI conversion (along with possible long term dependability issues) over the fuel efficiency gains.
@@neilwatson4562 👍 keep your carburetor
No fuel infection for me, my 850 Demon works great on my 427 Ford.
Nick how was the torque curve ? the fuel injection usally has more bottom end torque would you be able to show the results if possible . I know this was a while ago .Thanks for shareing all the knoledge over the years ! Joe
There is so much more to know, I'd like to see the torque curve on both. Does the tbi make more low end torque
I went from quick fuel 750 to a Fitech efi power adder better starts , no smell, timing control, better power under the curve , went faster when I spray they same amount of nitrous because on a carb you aim rich and afr chosen with efi... also better travelling across the highlands and weather doesn’t matter.. if you took most cars and properly tuned the efi with timing control you would most likely be faster with better drivability on average
I'd like to see average torque numbers of both.
Have just started with doing retrofits.. cost wise, there is little to be saved running a carb today.. I have that FiTech on a 514 BBF (385 engine) Felice built getting 18mpg on "boring" mode.. I did this just because after 40 some years of doing the "cold holley" palsy foot jiggle, I want something easier when cold..
This was it.. I can let anyone jump in , start up and drive away.. not bad for an old 63 Ford...
I would like to see some tuning time on the EFI .. a 1/10 here or there on fuel and timing might just yield better numbers.. I know I would never get the MPG on my carb tune.. I am going to try the Holley system next...
Love the tip on the oil pump!
Doesn't a dual quad or tri-twin setup make the engine really rich and boggy to drive because of the smaller downdraft?
Actual sequenced port injection and a decent EFI tuner should be on hand here!
:-)
On a air boat with a 500 caddy would the efi be better ?
Jeff Squire. Go with the EFI. Give it more time, and it will work great.
I like a good double pumper carb jetted and adjusted spot on, ive built turbo efi cars but a good na motor on a nice sorted carb pulls hard
Engine Masters did testing on this, full throttle is pretty much the same on carb or that type of efi, part throttle driving would be better on efi i think, but since it's not a multi port efi setup it doesnt change much, its pretty much just a electric carb
A lot of these BB mopars broke the oilpump driveshaft and tore the bottom end up from oil starvation.
Don't use stock shafts on high rpm motors.
The distributor vacuum advanced was unplugged. Why is this done with EFI? Was it unplugged with the carburetor also?
Should have shown carburetor set up. Just saying? Timming is everything.
Some EFI engines also computerize the spark timing. The distributor is then locked in place, and the computer sets off a spark according to the programming.
There were also some carb engines that had computerized spark timing, the Chrysler "Electronic Lean Burn" was built that way. GM used computerized spark on almost every carb engine by 1981 and continued it until carb engines were discontinued.
Guys don't forget. This is a THROTTLE BODY EFI. And it makes almost the same numbers as a carb.
Almost and heaps electric stuff to go wrong unlike carby which needs to be slightly adjusted once in 3yrs + personally i havent touched mine after 4 years no issues
Adjusted my EFI 5 years ago no issues, never even touched the spark plugs.
@@ToreDL87 wait till the wiring starts getting brittle from heat time and elements. Great times finding broke wires inside the harness.
for sure a ported injection is probably way better than tb injection.
Why did the EFI take so long to 'warm up' and idle smoothly?
An ΕFI mod needs a proper map. The default settings are there for reference. Only a qualified mechanic can adjust them properly.
Carbs on the other hand are easy to setup (dated tech).
Agree in the first statement but not the second. Depending on the carb, you can play with jets, accelerator pumps, idle mixture, choke, and for bigger gains you can mess with intake plenum. Setting up a carb for everyday driving, a shade tree mechanic can do it, but for performance it takes are artist. Out of the box, you HAVE to know how to adjust a carb on a new install, as shown on this video, EFI is mostly install it and then let it do its thing. I had a tech tweak my RAM and he used a computer...had another mechanic tweak my old Jeep with the Holly and he had to lift the hood and get a little dirty.....different skills.
Not sure if this has been pointed out, but that appears to be the entry level that is recommended for 150 up to 400hp. I would say you need both a bigger unit and maybe more tune time. Loved the video though.
Sure you can adjust a carb to get the same numbers on any given day at any given time . However the EFI is going to change day to day and you will be back in the carb to adjust it to catch up. Its just fuel and air being delivered by the same basic means.
Now if this was port injected the game changes even more... The carb is in the past .
@silverbird58 Most of us hoped panzie asses were in the past too but we all can't have what we want now can we. Let me guess, you're one of those idiots who think electric vehicles are the savior and not having a f'ing clue how much pollution the production of them cause compared to a gasoline engine.
You have to adjust your IAC on the Fitech to get it to run right, I think that you want between 3 and 10 on it.
Nick you are a awesome guy, its like I've met you before.
God Bless
Thanks for the oil pump trick Nick. Free is always good.
430 HP was impressive for a 440 back in the day but these days with all new performance parts made 9ver the years that thing should be pumping out around 550 or more easily
Have you ever used the Predator brand carborator before?
If so, how does it rate against the standerd carborator design.
Aries Might. No I have not, Sorry.
Nick Panaritis. Predator carbs self adjust from a minimum of 390 cfm all the up to 930 cfm. They are a very simple design. Yet advanced enough to allow you to mount them in any position. Even upside down. This is due to the fact that they lack floats and many other parts. In many types of racing they are the only specialty designed carburetor. That will allow you to win first place. Over the other carburetor designs.
Aries M. Thanks for the info.
You are welcome Nick Panaritis. This is my way of saying thank you. For all the great videos that you make. And share with all of us.
Keep the Carb, I'll stick to EFI. Life is too short to be constantly dealing with "moody" carbs and ethanol side effects.
Did the efi save more gas?
Thank you!
EFI will probably save fuel. The system adapts to changing weather and altitude in ways that a carb can't. Also, these EFI systems have an oxygen sensor that monitors air fuel ratios and adapts, however, some smog era carbs also used oxygen sensors.
However, there is a way to save fuel with carb setups. Sometimes you can cruise with a fuel air mixture leaner than 14.7:1. The right carb setup may allow it, but if you want to do that with EFI, you must pay extra for a system that supports wide band oxygen sensors.
@@skylinefever thank you!
Lmao no wot tuning and only 10 hp less lol sounds like I need to throw my carb in the dumpster
Watch engine master comparison watch?v=1VmoLMbv4BE, maybe you change your mind
You need a better parts store then .
@John Johnson - Sure EFI has only been standard equipment on everything since 1986 so no one will know what you are talking about.
If you had a problem with the EFI the parts store isn't going to have parts for it since it's not a factory type system.that's where your gonna get the blank stares from. Unless all the components on Fitech or Holley sniper use GM, Ford, Chrysler pieces. If you had a problem with a carb you can get a rebuild kit or most stores have an edelbrock carb on the shelf. I ran I holley Stealth Ram EFI on my Trans Am which was just an intake but it used all the other factory type pieces. So getting parts was easy.
If the Parts store sells the system than they can order the parts from the Manufacturer just like they can if you have a problem with a Holley carb they pick up the phone and call holley with the part Number ..
The fuel injection learns when making full throttle runs over a few pulls that gives the ECU time to learn from the wide ban O2 sensor and not just idle speed.
It would be interesting to compare a multiport fuel injection manifold to the FiTech throttle body EFI and the carburetor. I suspect the multiport system would be the winner.
LOOKS LIKE THE ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP IS KINKING OR PULLING THE RUBBER HOSE SHUT IN THE BEGINNING OF THE VIDEO WITH INJECTION.sorry about the caps
direct port fuel injection will always make far more torque but needs a ton of sensors to use.