I believe you are using the wrong "colony type" in the excel spread sheet. Switch it from "d" to "b" for our northern climate. It will function a far bit different.
I have changed the climate code, and it does change things, infact more in our favor. Basically the same dynamic at play, but quite a bit more tailored. I will be playing around with this more. The real question is if I can simply take the product efficacy at face value
@@AmbrosianBeeCo winter is that double edged sword. Ya, winter is a low growth period of time but if the colony has ANY mites as they go in, lights out.
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog Good deal. Yeah your seasonality works out better IMO ....as long as mites are 0 going into winter. Florida is a battle. 4 treatments a year minimum...never going bloodless...Also Talked with a Mann lake rep and with the "Magic" shortage in the USA - all the big dogs are buying up formic and Thymol and they don't think they can scale up production to meet demand that quick. So get it if you can get it...asap. Also will need rims for the formic and Thymol - @Bob Bonnie seems to have it dialed in....I'm sure you have talked with him.
Ian I've used MAQS (2 pads formic acid) during the summer for years and have not had queen loss. I run anywhere from 29-45 hives. I've even managed to keep some queens for over three years (just to see how long I can keep some of them going). Biggest issues I've found with formic is temperature - the temps have to be within the prescribed range or it will do harm. I run 3 medium 8-frames as my brood chamber so the queen has some area space to "get away" from close contact with the strips if she chooses. Not sure how that would work in your set up. What I have observed/found in 10 years of using the MAQS is that some queens either stop laying for a week or newer brood is killed - either way it is an additional little break in brood. But the good new is that the queens, bees and hive really seem to gain in strength and vigor (brilliance) after the treatment. Live in south central Pennsylvania. Summers can be very, hazy, hot and humid - have to be ready and waiting to apply strips when that "cool" weather opportunity presents itself - and it will you just have to be primed to take action - retirement helps!
Glad to see you have discovered Randy Oliver's model. It is one of the most advanced tools available to beekeepers today. As you become more experienced with it and explore the data within all the pages of that spreadsheet, you will be amazed at Randy's knowledge and effort that went into this model. I cannot imagine where we would be today if we did not have all of his data from the trials he has performed. I have used this model for several years as well as the oxalic acid extended release (OAER) method since Randy first introduced it 7 years ago. It works, anytime of the year without brood or queen loss. If you are considering 5 mite treatments, you will probably go nuts trying to get all that accomplished. Go back a few years in the American Bee Journal to the article where Randy published the vapo results by a Florida beekeeper, Ed Luttman. That trial showed that the only way he achieved mite control was to do vaporizations at 2 day intervals, 7 consecutive applications to catch every mite that emerges from the capped brood. Here in middle Tennessee, I only had to do 2 mite treatments last year, the OAER using maximizer pads in early June, and a Formic Pro treatment in early October. Those treatments resulted in a .1 mites per 100 bees average for all of my apiaries at the end of November. I sampled 100 % of my colonies. I would think the same approach would work for you and that you are able to obtain permission to do OAER in Canada like we were able to get the exemption from the Experimental Use Permit from the EPA here in the U.S. and the Tennessee EPA. I met you Sunday after the Hive Life conference at the Cracker Barrel when you came in with Kamon and Richard. Wish I could have stayed to listen to the conversation you all had with Bob, Byran Farris, and Jeff Thorne, Best of beekeeping luck this year. Dick Brickner Columbia (TN) Beekeepers Association
Thanks for demonstrating how the graph works. I knew it was set up for that purpose and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on treatments throughout the year.
When it comes to Formic I do the “soft” treatment before the honey flow of 1 pad for a week then the second pad for a week just so I don’t shut the queen down in their build up time. Then after the flow in mid August I do the full 2 pad dose because they are at the highest population and full of brood yet and don’t mind if I shut them down some. You do have a higher risk (nothing crazy) of loosing queens and brood on the full dose but there’s also a higher mite kill and plenty of time to requeen if needed. I also do oxalic vapor in spring and fall when feeding along with apivar in April. I’m in northern Wisconsin and has been working for me the last few years and has allowed me to double every year so far.
Where can I find that excel sheet? Found it on his website. Definitely going to use that this season so I can track my counts. Looks like your plan will work as long as the actual treatments do what they are intended to do.
You're on the right track Ian and I'm glad you are closely watching Randy Oliver's research.He is the world authority on Oxalic Acid for Varroa control. I've been using his extended release method for the last 2 years continuously and struggle to find even 1 or 2 mites in a 300-bee sugar shake. It seems you are finding mite resistance to Apivar (same here in New Zealand) and thymol and Formic is very hard on the bees, however I understand you have to phase in new treatments gradually keep going with your plan.
I have been following Randy Oliver models for years. I may check for mine twice a year. Once in the spring and later in August. I have never lost a hive, I only have one even though I have been told you should have two hives, in the past ten years and they are strong this winter.
What a nightmare, I lost 3 colonies due to Formic ( in my opinion) last season! Mind you I only had 9 colonies, I can’t imagine dealing with the amount you have! It’s great to watch and learn a similar time line! I’m definitely going with apivar in early spring and Formic pro early June, my queen problem s have occurred in my mid August treatments! Thank you for your dedication to the honeybees and your RUclips army!
Q1: what was the mite load? Q2: what was the ambient temperature at the time of treatment? Q3: what time of year did you treat? Q4: which grow zone are you located in?
I keep bees in south eastern PA. I have used Formic Pro for 4 years. I have never seen it cause 10% queen loss. It is very temperature dependent. If I can get 3 days at or below 80 degrees farenheit I will put it in. My current take on it is that it doesn't actually kill queens, it causes colonies to supercede fragile queens. The few queens that I lost tended to be older and weak/suspect. It might be that the formic fumes overpower the the QMP of weaker queens. That said I tried it as a spring treatment in 2022 and it seemed to negatively affect honey production.
Hi Ian, S.O.P. with formic in my area ( coastal California/San Francisco bay area.) has been: Formic Pro. 2 pads. split the pads into two treatments of 10 days each. 20 days total. Then we follow up with Swedish dish towels or shop towels with oxalic for a six week continuous treatment. Formic at the beginning of season which out here is in the late January to early Feb period. We have beeks who swear the continuous shop towel oxalic all year is the way. A lot based on Randy Oliver and his willingness to do the science. Biggest issue with formic of course is temperature dependency. Needing to have ambient temps below 85F I believe. with that in mind of course you can hit them with it early and then later in the season. In our case January-Feb and then October November.
@@MinnesotaBeekeeper yes, for us as well. Formic is really powerful stuff. even after the end of 10 days, the bees are well on their way to propolizing the entire pad.
@GeorgeCMcRae George -What City/zip code are you in? I’m in Pacifica-I’ve got buddies in SSF and San Bruno… we are putting together our plan for the year… With that rain we got… has totally pushed for the bee season… I’m looking at doing some Splits already.- thx!
Thank you for sharing Ian. One thing I've tried is placing half the mylar bag on top of a single pad of formic pro to make it a slow release and help mitigate impacts on the queens and small colonies. Randy has talked about this. Problem is you'll have to reapply since it doesn't blast the pesky mites in the sealed brood.
If your colonies are broodless when they come out of the shed, then OAV 4g/box makes a lot of sense immediately after they’re removed. Then a May or June application of OA sponges would keep your mite loads low with supers on. Could possibly try thymol immediately after supers are removed and follow thymol with OAV while brood quantity is minimal. I bet that would give you good control. My plan for this season: December (2022) OAV x3 @4g/box & 5-day interval -> May OA sponges -> August thymol w/ OAV chaser.
We have been experimenting with single formic pads. 2 in a row for 10 days each. It sure is a lot easier on the bees and we haven't had any queen losses yet... Realizing how much additional man hours it would take for you. But one might think minimizing your anticipated 10% queen losses, it could be worth it. Just my 2 cents.
I saw your previous post with the FLIR. I have had an attachment for my cell phone for just over 10 years. When I use it, I stand the same distance from the hive each time so that over the period of the winter, I can actually measure the width of the hot area to see if the cluster is shrinking or staying the same. Also, some people leave the Apivar on thru the winter. But the best time is at the end of July through September. That is when the queen is switching over to winter bees.
@@lynnerousseau9676 It's a FLIR One. I would send a pic but this reply won't accept pictures. It was just over two hundred dollars at the time. I didn't buy it expressly for the bees. I worked for DaimlerChrysler at the Tim as a quality engineer and I used to look for uniformity in mold dies.
@@larrybanachowski2852 Gotcha ! THAT seems like the one I was looking at…about $200. I was getting mine ONLY for my bees-haha! I moved that potential $200 over to BroodMinder (Bee specific products- )-and I picked up their internal Temperatures… I’ve got one Temp sensor up by my roof and a second one on top of my brood box. I can tell the overall hive temp and tell when the Cluster is moving around, I can tell when my Queen went broodless (temp lower than 91 degrees)- and apply my OAV…thanks!!!
I've had good luck using the glycerin treatment through the hot months to keep mite counts low in the summer. Mites *MUST* be low in order for the glycerin to work. I use apivar early during almond pollination and thymol/formic if I see higher loads before winter and after the brood buildup. I have a very high efficacy within the heat window for formic but if the heat window goes too high or low I lose queens or lose efficacy. Apiguard/thymol hasn't been as good to us, we run top feeders so we have to plug the hole to not let the thymol offgas too much. It also needs a rim at the top like formic and has some suppressive effects on the brood especially on smaller hives and warmer days. I also do 2 shots of OA vapor in January while brood is minimal. That mix has been good to us these last 3 years. We keep brood year around here so it is quite a bit different than what you see.
That visual is outstanding! It feels like too much is riding on “if this, then that” when it comes to making the right choices. Almost feels like a snipe hunt. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
Ian, would you consider doing a video on how you overwintered before you built your shed, I'm curious as to how you managed it, double boxes, single boxes etc; I manage fifty in northern Wisconsin and it's a challenge to say the least.
Apiguard is applied between 60 and 100F. October might be getting to the lower point in that range. And you would need to remove foamies to allow vapor cloud above the brood frames.
In Norway there is a very similar climate as in Manitoba, I guess. Because of the bees shutting down from October until late February, one mite treatment a year in winter with oxalic acid vapor is often sufficient. Beside the treatment with OA, the very long broodbreak knocks the mite population down too. If you just could treat your bees in winter...
Ian I use Formic every year now for about 5 years. Your estimate of about 10% queen loss seems safe, You may need a fall back position if you get a warm June as temps above 85F can really make queen loss worse.
Is this sheet something you would share or let me know where i might find it? I like the logic, if you stop the brooding would the OA still be based on 80% effective?
I’m near Buffalo NY so I get a little less winter than you , I’ve used formic early august and it’s below 90-95 degrees, I add empty supers and I get lots of dead mites and full hives going into winter and I know I’ve had some queens for 2 seasons. I’ll be interested to see how you do with formic
Another question where I haven't been able to find an answer, and I am guessing this chart is based on Apivar or Apistan on a 6 week application. I wonder what additional benefit there is with using it for 8 weeks. Label does state 6-8 week application. I wonder if Randy knows or if he's done this study of 6 over 8 week treatment period and the benefits. Myself I apply Apivar or Apistan early September and I leave them in till early November when I yank the treatment out and then apply an OA drip to end my season.
We have four hives and Apivar worked beautifully on 3 hives this fall, the last one was still a mite bomb so I hit them all with OAV, we never got the kind of weather break we needed to do formic. Mite bomb hive and lowest count hive are next to each other and both have screened bottom boards so we were able to check mite drop during both the Apivar and after the OA, both had mite drops during Apivar but way more in the mite bomb hive, and the OA got a handful more mites out of the good hive and LOTS out of the mite bomb hive.
Formic Acid I find is a sledge hammer, it works well but collateral damage is high. I have had queen death but it hasn't put me off the product. penetrating the brood wax capping is fantastic. Just keep an eye on daytime temperatures.
with sping apivar treatment, is there any conern for drones due to amitraz residue? you dont think colonies are mostly clean after OAV before bringing into shed?
Once I understood RO model and consulted a Pest Control Manager at a Zoological institution I changed by program to OADe Straws and I am so Happy !!! I treat all summer long safely and at a cost of $.75 USD a hive a month...... I haven't had a 2% count for two years.
My thoughts are the weakness of OA is it’s strength. It stays in the hive a short time. I worry if we start having OA in the colonies with extended release etc. The mites will build a resistance like they have other extended release products and we could lose OA as an effective treatment.
@@hankbaker1614 There is no path for VD to modify it reliance on CA ions for internal sensory communication. That would be like humans changing from Iron to copper forO2 transference...
@@hankbaker1614 OA was not pulled out of the sky for use on Bee mites. OAV and OAD has been used for over 70 years for mite control on vegetation and in packing. The reason it works on vegetative mites is well understood as is the reason it can be a problem for humans. The only surprise when the tested OAV and OAD on Honey Bee mites was that both worked - while on vegetative mites - one or the other works well. You can not build a resistant to oxidation of a free ion.
I think that's a good assessment... TOTALLY agree on treating in April with something.. I think it's a bid mistake not to protect them in that early development period. CPI applies to all life (Critical Points of Influence)... earliest life stage has most yield or loss effect based on what you do. I don't know what the answer is here Ian... but am rooting for you! Have you ever looked into varroa predators of any sort? Just a thought that crossed my mind... not sure what they would be or how they would integrate. Any progress or thoughts on CO2 treatment in the shed?
A couple of things I think you should consider. If you come out of the shed nearly broodless or at least uncapped, why don't you consider OAV for at least half your colonies. With exposed mites, you'd be using a known effective method. You could do the other 50% with glycerin or apivar or some combination of each. That way, you can examine effectiveness without pushing in all your chips. Also. Even though it's a pain, treating with OAV late in the evening or at night let's you treat more bees. However, that is assuming it's not a cold night and they are clustered tightly. Treating at 10 c would be ideal but I understand you have to treat on a schedule and can't pick and choose days for treating.
Liquid formic on pads or formic pro? Had a bad experience with formic pro. Large amount of bee's died within 36 hours including the queen. Hopefully others had better results.
Regarding Formic,are you entering a flow on June 1? If the queen is battling for available cells to lay in and you take away her bullets, aren't you worried about them filling the brood area with honey? Tough decisions.
From the hobbyist practical point of view what I usually do is heat up the water up to no more than 40 degrees Celcius (not to boil away the essential oils) then add up the sugar according to the desired ratio and some dried thyme in the bowl (no more than a 1/2 teaspoonful per liter Let it sit there for some time with the lids closed. When it cools down it is time to feed it to the bees. This is the most practical way to distribute thymol in the hive.
Ian have you ever thought of using oxalic vapor around 21 days after you make your nucs? the brood you used for nucs should have hatched and the new queen shouldn't have much capped brood at that time. Just a thought.
Good suggestion SSmith. I do this with nucs, splits, swarms, requeens, basically any opportunity to hit them when they are broodless, uncapped or nearly so. Number of days depends on the scenario of course. With caught swarms, it's within 7 days or soon thereafter.
Is it possible to do test groups of say 20 or so hives on different treatments to see which of the most promising .say two works best. Also keep a note. Pad to see where the mite bombs turn up maybe some edge part hives have to get adjustments to treatments to get mites under control . If there is some areas that are habitually bad . Use diplomatic skills you have to help those in need to get control . A part day teaching will save gray hair and not pull out. What you have . Just a thought not fun flying with out a net stay safe
Hi Ian, search for: "Summer brood interruption as integrated management strategy for effective Varroa control in Europe" Should also work outside of europe.
have you little or no experience with formic? MAQS and PRO are expensive. i find one pad on a single in spring does well enough to get me to summer dearth, but apistan AND apivar let me down this year. lots of mites left yet when i hit them with OAV in november. looking at thymol for summer this year. i play with this sheet a lot also.
No brooding during winter, meaning no mites being raised during winter. If you treat in the fall (not talking about using OAV either), logically, there is no need to treat early spring. Formic's best use would be in late spring when you are raising your own queens, no problem to requeen if one is lost, also you have nucs at that time to drop in the colony that lost its queen during formic treatment. Now use apivar in late fall after the summer field bees are gone, usually mid-September here in NS. Now you don't have to use OAV, and there is no need to treat the bees in April coming out of the shed(mites were not raised over winter). Formic kills mites in the sealed brood which a colony is full of in the spring, cells are being capped constantly, lots of places to hide, unlike fall there is less and less places to hide, apivar is a better treatment in fall killing mites on the bees where there is less brood to hide than compared to spring.
for the formic Pro, I fidn the one pad method easier on the Queens. Lterally only have 2 hives, one year experience. But I lost one Queen when I did the two pad treatment, especially in the middle of summer when its very hot in Ontario. I did the one pad treatment in the fall, and came out successful. and the mite drop was just as effective.
@@MinnesotaBeekeeper Yep exactly! It means you are in the hive twice, but I have found it effective. I will be doing the same this spring with the formic pro as thats what I have on had, and apivar is sold out everywhere I have looked locally,. I also used the OAV treatment in the fall, 4 rounds. So I am hoping everything is good!
Ian when does your nectar flow start and end. In my area the 1st "part" of April I wouldn't want Apivar on the colonies beause there might be a flow start up or I may need to try and get supers drawn. I am seriously thinking about trying extended release OA. What are you thoughts on that?
My FLIR attachment to my phone allows me to store the picture. By standing at the same distance all the time, I can then take a 6 inch ruler and measure the length and height of the heat source. Comparing picture to picture.
You stated that you "hate" oxalic acid vaporization treatment but did not say why. What do you have against OAV? There is now a self-contained, battery-powered unit that gives you the freedom to move through all your apiaries (uses a Dewalt power pack). What other reasons do you have not to like it? Thx.
what is the theoretical residual chemical load in the product from this aggressive treatment plan Ian? Are you in the bee business or the honey business or both? I ache not knowing if the product is contaminated by these means...
I know there are very brilliant people such as Randy Oliver working on extended release OA. The weakness of the OA only staying in the hive 24 hours in my opinion is also it’s strength. The mites have not been able to build up a resistance to it. If we start leaving OA that stays in the hive over long periods of time, my worry is they will adapt and build of resistance just like they have other treatments that stay in the hive a long time. Then we could possibly lose OA as an effective treatment.
@@hankbaker1614 - it does seem that the converse could come true - Vapor is not in the colony very long at all, thus limiting systemic or prolonged exposure. OADe has a much much higher likelihood of biologically influencing an adaptation that would encourage resistance from the Varroa. So then we have two issues to tackle, and instead of just Amitraz having limitations, one will be dealing with OADe limitations..and then hamstringing themselves with OAV as a result.
The issue I have had with formic is the temperature. While I have killed queens with it. It was because of the temperature. I used it in October with no queen issue
To shore up your queen thoughts, I consider it a good thing when I lose queens to formic. I want stock that can tolerate the treatments I need to use at this time. Second I understand why you are using lower efficacy numbers, kinda like rounding up to see what things cost and being pleasantly surprised rather than sticker shock. BUT, if it were me I'd plug in my conservative numbers and target numbers to give yourself a range. If you treat with formic and get conservative efficacy you have a plan for that, of you treat and get excellent efficacy, well you have a plan for that too.
Not sure the application of Thymol, but Thymovar requires 2 treatments 3-4 weeks each. And I believe it has temperature restrictions so a late cool fall application might be just wasting the product.
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog Ok. Again don't know Thymol so hopefully it's cheap to apply. Thymovar runs about $50 a pack to treat 5 hives. Doing a Google search and look like Thymol is also very expensive. We had someone in our area a couple years ago looking to purchase Thymol crystals. Not sure if he got any or if he used it.
hello ian! I wish you continued success. My area is very similar to yours. I wonder which bee breed you are working with. What is the breed of bees? thanks.
Bonjour, I am struggling to find the video I saw where the impact of treatments was measured on a temperature graph. Before the treatment the temperature line is very regular : but after treatment the readings are erratic for days. The least intrusive was OAV, as measured by the temperature steadying within a day ! If somebody can source this video for me I would like to study it again. Important to have a scientific based knowledge that measures not only the mite drop, but also the disturbance to the colony. Maybe it was a Broodminder video or some other manufacturer ??
I guess I look at it a bit differently. Those mite bombs eliminate the bees that do not handle mites well at all. I use splits/brood breaks during the active season, 2 oxalic acid vaps in the fall and I do thymolize my fall syrup. Beyond that if winter does not kill the queen (and usually cluster) that failed to control mites then I do. And replace her with a queen from a better line in the spring that are dealing with varroa counts. If I frequently or constantly battle/treat varroa for the bees without challenging and eliminating the breeding stock that is not dealing with them then I am just breeding an inferior line of bees. I did have a summer 4yrs ago where varroa numbers went thru the roof. I treated with hopguard 2 then. I really can not say why varroa went bee-serk other than environmental conditions favored them and perhaps I just was not as far along in my selective breeding. I know local keepers that have not treated in years and years. They selected strongly at the expense of other desirable traits for VSH. Then they worked to return those lost traits back into the bees without sacrificing VSH. I still see the occasional hive that dies over winter due to tracheal mites and how many generations of bees were raised by better and more experienced keepers than I that became my foundation stock? But we do not think twice about tracheal mites anymore. It's a balancing act of selecting excellent breeding queens and chosing adequate and appropriate varroa treats for sure. I guess I just would rather go with breeding than agonize over treats through out the season. All that said I am ever mindful of changing environmental conditions, treatments and how others are using them and numbers of failing colonies especially those that dewindle over winter here. One last note - my hives tend to have psuedoscorpions present and I see them frequently until I treat. So mites are mites. Kill varroa and your killing the free help that feed on them. Just my 2 cents.
Down here, we do OAV every 4-5 days in alignment with the varroa reproductive cycle, doing 5 treatments to cover a full brood cycle. In this way, almost every mite gets exposed at some point, either directly or residually.
The Ed Luttman vapo trials Randy Oliver published several years ago demonstrated that the best vapo treatment method was to treat 7 times at 2 day intervals to kill every mite emerging from the capped brood.
consider shaking out 4 pounds of bees and making your own packages. when you place them in the new boxes treat with vapor then add the queen 6 hours later. those new colonies should be near zero mites. place the new colonies in separate yards. treat the remaining colonies as per your plan. this would be replicating a true swarming. yes it is lot of work but may give you less mite problems
Randy Oliver prescribes rotation of mite treatment. Using just two types and repeating Apivar is not following Randys method. Switch in Thymol and/or Formic Acid based treatments with AOV. When fighting mites don't: Left Jab, Left Jab, Left Jab, Left Jab You want some: Left Jab, Right Hook, Upper cut, round house kick.
I really like the yearly plan for mite control, so since this all seems to one big experiment... IF I have any bees left this spring, after the apivar disaster (dawn wash=55 mites on 105 bees), I am going to go to OAV monthly maybe even more often, depending on my mite counts. I can't spend a lot of money on a treatment that is failing, whether it is mite resistance or poor manufacturing, after 2 years of this product failing, I'm not going to trust it again.
Hey Ian, hello from Serbia. This will sound harsh, but it's fair: North America is the only place in the world in which there are speakers who teach beekeepers how to lose only 30% (?!) of the colonies through the winter. It's ridiculous, frankly and honestly. I'll give you a couple of pieces of advice and, hopefully, you won't be mad at me: 1. Nobody treats for varroa during the Spring outside the NA. Forget about varroa in April. Let your bees build up freely, think about it in late July and August. You might want to start the fight with OA sheets earlier, but only that is alright for bees 2. Start treating during the last big honey crop, or immediately after you take the honey away. You can use OA sheets, Thymol or Apivar (beware, Thymol can cause robbing). You can also remove the queens, you might even get more honey that way 3. Formic acid can't be used above 25 degrees Celsius. It can be used in September in my area (night 10-20, day 15-28). Or you can do daily treatments, but that's a terrible plan for 1000 hives 4. Think about removing the queens before or during your last honey crop, so you hit varroa outside the brood 20 days later. It's labor-intensive but extremely efficient and cheap (one OA vapor will do the job once your colonies are broodless) I'm nowhere near your beekeeping level (I've got 90 colonies), but I never lose bees due to issues with varroa. My winter survival rate is 95-100%. Good luck with the planning!
I agree to a point, without the early treatment I’ve consistently fell into mid summer varroa related deaths. I’ve missed crops and by that time of year, the colonies can’t be recovered
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog Agreed, some colonies will struggle in August. This is why I start the treatments in late July (extended-release using oA, Amitraz, or Thymol), and continue during September (Amitraz, Thymol, FA, or OA vapor), ending with OA vapor/dribble during November.
I do not think of Formic Acid killing the queens. I feel wether it's formic acid shutting down the queen, pollen dearth, indoor winter storage, etc. Older queens have a tougher time restarting brood laying. Therefore younger well mated queens survive all these better. In my experience I can keep bees alive with formic acid, but to use multiple treatments in spring like the "meat pads" it is very hard to build the big hives we need on the prairies for the end of June. Formic Pro helps but you could not make me put two strips on a hive from my previous experience. When the US has large operations storing hives inside during the winter with high CO2 levels and moving to a densely populated bee area like the Central Valley and not needing to use a mite treatment until June to have healthy strong colonies I almost wonder why is their any discussion on mite treatments. Big capital cost and newer management (maybe not as proven) practices. But sounds like the future to me.
Maybe do a quarter or half the bees with the new program to see how it reacts or to see any issues with it that way you are not jeopardizing your whole operation
Formic is going to need space. You'll want to use it and be done before you shrink the hives to single deep brood boxes, otherwise it'll be super swarm season.
Damned mites! So much expense and effort to thwart their destruction which causes a direct hit to the bottom link on both sides. If only we could protect our stock from threats like this.
Wondering since you overwinter inside a building, could you not flood the room with oxalic acid shortly after all the bees are assembled. This should allow you to start the year at zero of close.
My concern is that OA extended release is going to create a scenario in which the mites have the opportunity to build resistance to OA. Maybe there is some scientific explanation why mites would not build up a resistance to OA that I’m not aware. The very fact that OAV currently remains in the hive a short time is it’s weakness but also can be it’s strength. Mites currently have not built up resistance to OA. If we leave OA extended release in hives for long periods of time and also at low levels my concern is we could lose, over time OAV as an effective treatment. Seems like other treatments which stay in the hive longer, the mites have built up a resistance. I use OAV and brood breaks. Would hate to lose OAV as an effective tool. I just wonder if we had OA extended release available for everyone to use today how long it would be before the mites had resistance to OA and then OAV would not be an available tool any longer.
Randy Olivers strategy is over complicated. Try a hive design that has 1. Top of brood bee entry, .........to form a "bucket" of humid (not wet) air in the brood chamber. Varroa do not like humid. Reason unknown. 2. Try a high level of insulation in the external envelope. This will allow the bees to maintain a high brood temperature which allows a quicker pupation period which in turn reduces the maturation time available for the varroa to mature in the cells. The varroa numbers will fall to below sustainable.
Ian by doing splits and taking away brut from your colonies, you reduce the mite load. Formalic works best when the bees are kept in one super. You need good gas pressure of formailc to reach into the capped brut. The more supers are on the colonies, the less gas pressure you got. On the other hand the best time to do formalic is after doing splits, or removing a significant amount of brut of your production colonies. This way you can keep the amount of formailc lower, then for a full box of brut. The more brut is in those colonies, the more mites are in there. Hence you will need higher formalic gas pressure, wich might kill your queens. So my resume is: Do splits Keep the colonies tight (swarm danger zone) And treat with a low load of formailc.
You really needs to be carefull with formic acid in the summer, if the temperature is to high, you risk killing the queen and the bees, because the evaporation is to high. the temperature should be between 12-25 celsius, is it higher then that, you risk killing your bees, lower it has minimum effect. I do agree with the extended relese in the spring, i would skip the formic treatment, but if needed give them a extended treatment in june again. I have treatet mine with extended, in early spring, thymol right after the last honey harvest. and a oxalic drip in the winter when it is broodteless. im experimenting with extended release as a winter treatment in 50% of my hives this year, and comparing the results with the others. I dont se the problems with thymol as you do
I noticed you were using the wrong "colony type" in the excel spread sheet. I believe you should switch it from "d" to "b" for our northern climate. It will function a far bit different.
I don't see need to treat in the april, bees have a lot of brood and varroa mite can't affect to the colony....brood removal and making new colonies could be the tool in that time to control mite and also making new queen bee...the second treatment wit formic acid during honey crop is ok and it buy time ....the third treatment is crucial to the success and have to be done with as much as possible care....not to late which is the most important...and the most beekeepers make that mistake....bees need time to prepare for the winter...give them that time and they will do all else...final treatment have to be during broodless time and in situation when bees stay in the hive...this model works for me very well...do not bother with potential losing queen bees due to treatment because warroa mite will kill whole colony for sure.
Beside brood the OA effinciency is only 50%. Last Summer made I a Test. Over seven week once a week made I sublimation. At the beggining there were 13 (alcohol wash) mite and the end were 6. I think your effinciency degree i very optimistic...sorry for my english.
The count of 6 mites at the end of your 7 week treatment is still way too hive. The Randy Oliver ABJ article published several years ago featured the results Ed Luttman achieved in his Florida based colonies. He had to do vaporizations on 2 day intervals (dropping the mite count to zero) and when you do that 7 times in a row, you kill all the mites emerging from the capped brood (up to 14 days on drone brood) present on the first day of vaporizing.
@@R_Brickner After last harvest( middle of July. Hungary) made I total brood removal. I vaporizing 2 times (2nd and 7th day after that). With this treatment I killing 95-99% of mite. End of September I caging the Queen. 21st and 25th day I vaporizing ( 95-99%), then I let the Queen free. This is 4 treatment. This is my protocoll. With brood the vaporizing not enough efficient for me. Every 2 days vaporizing, in my opinion, is not good for Queen ( 2g/treatment 7th times 14gramm OA) but! I have only 50-60 hives.( From 2016 I only do vaporizing againts mite. Sorry for my english! )
I periodically brainstorm ways you could benefit from data mining and collection and I'm just not kniwlegible enough. It seems like a total no Brainer that maybe with a few high res cameras at your yards and a few raspberry pis some grad students at the local university could build staggeringly useful data from your ooeration.
Sounds like a lot of time and money. It really sucks that we have to put all these chemicals on our bees. You can refrigerate your shed and do a brood break right after honey flow and then oxalic treatments…. Same problem time and money. But maybe less chemicals.
I know you are a commercial guy. I don't remember hearing you discuss Formic acid in the past. I'm just a side liner. Formic has done bad things to my queens in the past. killed many queens and stunted egg production on those where it didn't kill the queens. I feel I used it correctly during low temperatures. I'm not a fan. I have since decided to move on from formic. Just sayin.
Is this sheet something you would share or let me know where i might find it? I like the logic, if you stop the brooding would the OA still be based on 80% effective?
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog agreed as your sample group is huge that provides a wide number of variables, using it after something like Formic with a brood break (might possibly) provide a much higher mite kill than previous samples. The trick is finding something that will provide the required mite kill over as large number of variables like time and temperature, without sacrificing the winter colony density and ensure the survival rate stays at 90% plus. It would be nice if there was a product that could be used in/on the cluster throughout the winter where the complete cluster could be treated over a slow release like 5 months.
I believe you are using the wrong "colony type" in the excel spread sheet. Switch it from "d" to "b" for our northern climate. It will function a far bit different.
D to B, got it thx
I’ll try that
What are the apparent differences in mite growth dynamics
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog big difference. Going bloodless in the winter is a huge advantage for you all.
I have changed the climate code, and it does change things, infact more in our favor. Basically the same dynamic at play, but quite a bit more tailored. I will be playing around with this more. The real question is if I can simply take the product efficacy at face value
@@AmbrosianBeeCo winter is that double edged sword. Ya, winter is a low growth period of time but if the colony has ANY mites as they go in, lights out.
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog Good deal. Yeah your seasonality works out better IMO ....as long as mites are 0 going into winter. Florida is a battle. 4 treatments a year minimum...never going bloodless...Also Talked with a Mann lake rep and with the "Magic" shortage in the USA - all the big dogs are buying up formic and Thymol and they don't think they can scale up production to meet demand that quick. So get it if you can get it...asap. Also will need rims for the formic and Thymol - @Bob Bonnie seems to have it dialed in....I'm sure you have talked with him.
Thanks for sharing, once I watch it five more times might get back to you for a question…
I think this could be just what we need to help us manage the mites better and keep our bees healthier thanks as always for great videos and info
Ian I've used MAQS (2 pads formic acid) during the summer for years and have not had queen loss. I run anywhere from 29-45 hives. I've even managed to keep some queens for over three years (just to see how long I can keep some of them going). Biggest issues I've found with formic is temperature - the temps have to be within the prescribed range or it will do harm. I run 3 medium 8-frames as my brood chamber so the queen has some area space to "get away" from close contact with the strips if she chooses. Not sure how that would work in your set up. What I have observed/found in 10 years of using the MAQS is that some queens either stop laying for a week or newer brood is killed - either way it is an additional little break in brood. But the good new is that the queens, bees and hive really seem to gain in strength and vigor (brilliance) after the treatment. Live in south central Pennsylvania. Summers can be very, hazy, hot and humid - have to be ready and waiting to apply strips when that "cool" weather opportunity presents itself - and it will you just have to be primed to take action - retirement helps!
Glad to see you have discovered Randy Oliver's model. It is one of the most advanced tools available to beekeepers today. As you become more experienced with it and explore the data within all the pages of that spreadsheet, you will be amazed at Randy's knowledge and effort that went into this model. I cannot imagine where we would be today if we did not have all of his data from the trials he has performed.
I have used this model for several years as well as the oxalic acid extended release (OAER) method since Randy first introduced it 7 years ago. It works, anytime of the year without brood or queen loss. If you are considering 5 mite treatments, you will probably go nuts trying to get all that accomplished. Go back a few years in the American Bee Journal to the article where Randy published the vapo results by a Florida beekeeper, Ed Luttman. That trial showed that the only way he achieved mite control was to do vaporizations at 2 day intervals, 7 consecutive applications to catch every mite that emerges from the capped brood.
Here in middle Tennessee, I only had to do 2 mite treatments last year, the OAER using maximizer pads in early June, and a Formic Pro treatment in early October. Those treatments resulted in a .1 mites per 100 bees average for all of my apiaries at the end of November. I sampled 100 % of my colonies. I would think the same approach would work for you and that you are able to obtain permission to do OAER in Canada like we were able to get the exemption from the Experimental Use Permit from the EPA here in the U.S. and the Tennessee EPA.
I met you Sunday after the Hive Life conference at the Cracker Barrel when you came in with Kamon and Richard. Wish I could have stayed to listen to the conversation you all had with Bob, Byran Farris, and Jeff Thorne,
Best of beekeeping luck this year. Dick Brickner Columbia (TN) Beekeepers Association
Thanks for demonstrating how the graph works. I knew it was set up for that purpose and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on treatments throughout the year.
Never knew!
Lots of though put into this. That spreadsheet is fantastic! Looking forward to seeing the girls come out of the shed in a month or so!
When it comes to Formic I do the “soft” treatment before the honey flow of 1 pad for a week then the second pad for a week just so I don’t shut the queen down in their build up time. Then after the flow in mid August I do the full 2 pad dose because they are at the highest population and full of brood yet and don’t mind if I shut them down some. You do have a higher risk (nothing crazy) of loosing queens and brood on the full dose but there’s also a higher mite kill and plenty of time to requeen if needed. I also do oxalic vapor in spring and fall when feeding along with apivar in April. I’m in northern Wisconsin and has been working for me the last few years and has allowed me to double every year so far.
Where can I find that excel sheet? Found it on his website. Definitely going to use that this season so I can track my counts. Looks like your plan will work as long as the actual treatments do what they are intended to do.
You're on the right track Ian and I'm glad you are closely watching Randy Oliver's research.He is the world authority on Oxalic Acid for Varroa control. I've been using his extended release method for the last 2 years continuously and struggle to find even 1 or 2 mites in a 300-bee sugar shake. It seems you are finding mite resistance to Apivar (same here in New Zealand) and thymol and Formic is very hard on the bees, however I understand you have to phase in new treatments gradually keep going with your plan.
I have been following Randy Oliver models for years. I may check for mine twice a year. Once in the spring and later in August. I have never lost a hive, I only have one even though I have been told you should have two hives, in the past ten years and they are strong this winter.
What a nightmare, I lost 3 colonies due to Formic ( in my opinion) last season! Mind you I only had 9 colonies, I can’t imagine dealing with the amount you have! It’s great to watch and learn a similar time line!
I’m definitely going with apivar in early spring and Formic pro early June, my queen problem s have occurred in my mid August treatments! Thank you for your dedication to the honeybees and your RUclips army!
Q1: what was the mite load?
Q2: what was the ambient temperature at the time of treatment?
Q3: what time of year did you treat?
Q4: which grow zone are you located in?
I keep bees in south eastern PA. I have used Formic Pro for 4 years. I have never seen it cause 10% queen loss. It is very temperature dependent. If I can get 3 days at or below 80 degrees farenheit I will put it in. My current take on it is that it doesn't actually kill queens, it causes colonies to supercede fragile queens. The few queens that I lost tended to be older and weak/suspect. It might be that the formic fumes overpower the the QMP of weaker queens. That said I tried it as a spring treatment in 2022 and it seemed to negatively affect honey production.
Hi Ian, S.O.P. with formic in my area ( coastal California/San Francisco bay area.) has been: Formic Pro. 2 pads. split the pads into two treatments of 10 days each. 20 days total. Then we follow up with Swedish dish towels or shop towels with oxalic for a six week continuous treatment. Formic at the beginning of season which out here is in the late January to early Feb period. We have beeks who swear the continuous shop towel oxalic all year is the way. A lot based on Randy Oliver and his willingness to do the science. Biggest issue with formic of course is temperature dependency. Needing to have ambient temps below 85F I believe. with that in mind of course you can hit them with it early and then later in the season. In our case January-Feb and then October November.
George we have been splitting the doses too. It absolutely reduces the amount of be dropping queen loss. At least for us.
@@MinnesotaBeekeeper yes, for us as well. Formic is really powerful stuff. even after the end of 10 days, the bees are well on their way to propolizing the entire pad.
@GeorgeCMcRae
George -What City/zip code are you in? I’m in Pacifica-I’ve got buddies in SSF and San Bruno… we are putting together our plan for the year… With that rain we got… has totally pushed for the bee season… I’m looking at doing some Splits already.- thx!
Thank you for sharing Ian. One thing I've tried is placing half the mylar bag on top of a single pad of formic pro to make it a slow release and help mitigate impacts on the queens and small colonies. Randy has talked about this. Problem is you'll have to reapply since it doesn't blast the pesky mites in the sealed brood.
Where I live in Maine, we don’t get any mites in washes till June normal.
If your colonies are broodless when they come out of the shed, then OAV 4g/box makes a lot of sense immediately after they’re removed.
Then a May or June application of OA sponges would keep your mite loads low with supers on.
Could possibly try thymol immediately after supers are removed and follow thymol with OAV while brood quantity is minimal.
I bet that would give you good control.
My plan for this season: December (2022) OAV x3 @4g/box & 5-day interval -> May OA sponges -> August thymol w/ OAV chaser.
We have been experimenting with single formic pads. 2 in a row for 10 days each.
It sure is a lot easier on the bees and we haven't had any queen losses yet...
Realizing how much additional man hours it would take for you. But one might think minimizing your anticipated 10% queen losses, it could be worth it. Just my 2 cents.
I saw your previous post with the FLIR. I have had an attachment for my cell phone for just over 10 years. When I use it, I stand the same distance from the hive each time so that over the period of the winter, I can actually measure the width of the hot area to see if the cluster is shrinking or staying the same. Also, some people leave the Apivar on thru the winter. But the best time is at the end of July through September. That is when the queen is switching over to winter bees.
Yes I use a 3' yard stick -
If you see your hive shrinking what do you do?
What’s your FLIR attachment for your phone- if I can ask… I was pricing it before.. it was still a bit pricey last time I looked.
@@lynnerousseau9676 It's a FLIR One. I would send a pic but this reply won't accept pictures. It was just over two hundred dollars at the time. I didn't buy it expressly for the bees. I worked for DaimlerChrysler at the Tim as a quality engineer and I used to look for uniformity in mold dies.
@@larrybanachowski2852 Gotcha ! THAT seems like the one I was looking at…about $200. I was getting mine ONLY for my bees-haha! I moved that potential $200 over to BroodMinder (Bee specific products- )-and I picked up their internal Temperatures… I’ve got one Temp sensor up by my roof and a second one on top of my brood box. I can tell the overall hive temp and tell when the Cluster is moving around, I can tell when my Queen went broodless (temp lower than 91 degrees)- and apply my OAV…thanks!!!
I've had good luck using the glycerin treatment through the hot months to keep mite counts low in the summer. Mites *MUST* be low in order for the glycerin to work. I use apivar early during almond pollination and thymol/formic if I see higher loads before winter and after the brood buildup. I have a very high efficacy within the heat window for formic but if the heat window goes too high or low I lose queens or lose efficacy. Apiguard/thymol hasn't been as good to us, we run top feeders so we have to plug the hole to not let the thymol offgas too much. It also needs a rim at the top like formic and has some suppressive effects on the brood especially on smaller hives and warmer days. I also do 2 shots of OA vapor in January while brood is minimal. That mix has been good to us these last 3 years. We keep brood year around here so it is quite a bit different than what you see.
That visual is outstanding! It feels like too much is riding on “if this, then that” when it comes to making the right choices. Almost feels like a snipe hunt. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
Ian, would you consider doing a video on how you overwintered before you built your shed, I'm curious as to how you managed it, double boxes, single boxes etc; I manage fifty in northern Wisconsin and it's a challenge to say the least.
Apiguard is applied between 60 and 100F. October might be getting to the lower point in that range. And you would need to remove foamies to allow vapor cloud above the brood frames.
In Norway there is a very similar climate as in Manitoba, I guess. Because of the bees shutting down from October until late February, one mite treatment a year in winter with oxalic acid vapor is often sufficient. Beside the treatment with OA, the very long broodbreak knocks the mite population down too. If you just could treat your bees in winter...
Ian I use Formic every year now for about 5 years. Your estimate of about 10% queen loss seems safe, You may need a fall back position if you get a warm June as temps above 85F can really make queen loss worse.
Is this sheet something you would share or let me know where i might find it? I like the logic, if you stop the brooding would the OA still be based on 80% effective?
Wow. Interesting stuff Ian. Where can I get ahold of that chart to play with?
scientificbeekeeping.com/randys-varroa-model/
I’m near Buffalo NY so I get a little less winter than you , I’ve used formic early august and it’s below 90-95 degrees, I add empty supers and I get lots of dead mites and full hives going into winter and I know I’ve had some queens for 2 seasons. I’ll be interested to see how you do with formic
Another question where I haven't been able to find an answer, and I am guessing this chart is based on Apivar or Apistan on a 6 week application. I wonder what additional benefit there is with using it for 8 weeks. Label does state 6-8 week application. I wonder if Randy knows or if he's done this study of 6 over 8 week treatment period and the benefits. Myself I apply Apivar or Apistan early September and I leave them in till early November when I yank the treatment out and then apply an OA drip to end my season.
We have four hives and Apivar worked beautifully on 3 hives this fall, the last one was still a mite bomb so I hit them all with OAV, we never got the kind of weather break we needed to do formic. Mite bomb hive and lowest count hive are next to each other and both have screened bottom boards so we were able to check mite drop during both the Apivar and after the OA, both had mite drops during Apivar but way more in the mite bomb hive, and the OA got a handful more mites out of the good hive and LOTS out of the mite bomb hive.
Formic Acid I find is a sledge hammer, it works well but collateral damage is high. I have had queen death but it hasn't put me off the product. penetrating the brood wax capping is fantastic. Just keep an eye on daytime temperatures.
Are you planning to do more washes this year? What percentage of colonies do you try to sample?
with sping apivar treatment, is there any conern for drones due to amitraz residue? you dont think colonies are mostly clean after OAV before bringing into shed?
At 6:00 you say you 'hate' OA vapor treatment. Please do a short vid on why.
Thanks for letting us into your head as you think thru this.
Poor variability and hard on personal health
Once I understood RO model and consulted a Pest Control Manager at a Zoological institution I changed by program to OADe Straws and I am so Happy !!! I treat all summer long safely and at a cost of $.75 USD a hive a month...... I haven't had a 2% count for two years.
My thoughts are the weakness of OA is it’s strength. It stays in the hive a short time. I worry if we start having OA in the colonies with extended release etc. The mites will build a resistance like they have other extended release products and we could lose OA as an effective treatment.
@@hankbaker1614 There is no path for VD to modify it reliance on CA ions for internal sensory communication. That would be like humans changing from Iron to copper forO2 transference...
@@hankbaker1614 OA was not pulled out of the sky for use on Bee mites. OAV and OAD has been used for over 70 years for mite control on vegetation and in packing. The reason it works on vegetative mites is well understood as is the reason it can be a problem for humans. The only surprise when the tested OAV and OAD on Honey Bee mites was that both worked - while on vegetative mites - one or the other works well. You can not build a resistant to oxidation of a free ion.
Nature always finds a way....
@@glennsnaturalhoney4571 Nature follows the rules of chemisty 100% of the time.
I think that's a good assessment... TOTALLY agree on treating in April with something.. I think it's a bid mistake not to protect them in that early development period. CPI applies to all life (Critical Points of Influence)... earliest life stage has most yield or loss effect based on what you do. I don't know what the answer is here Ian... but am rooting for you! Have you ever looked into varroa predators of any sort? Just a thought that crossed my mind... not sure what they would be or how they would integrate. Any progress or thoughts on CO2 treatment in the shed?
Yes, the c02 is something but I don’t have enough guidance on its protocols yet
A couple of things I think you should consider. If you come out of the shed nearly broodless or at least uncapped, why don't you consider OAV for at least half your colonies. With exposed mites, you'd be using a known effective method. You could do the other 50% with glycerin or apivar or some combination of each. That way, you can examine effectiveness without pushing in all your chips. Also. Even though it's a pain, treating with OAV late in the evening or at night let's you treat more bees. However, that is assuming it's not a cold night and they are clustered tightly. Treating at 10 c would be ideal but I understand you have to treat on a schedule and can't pick and choose days for treating.
Liquid formic on pads or formic pro? Had a bad experience with formic pro. Large amount of bee's died within 36 hours including the queen. Hopefully others had better results.
Regarding Formic,are you entering a flow on June 1? If the queen is battling for available cells to lay in and you take away her bullets, aren't you worried about them filling the brood area with honey? Tough decisions.
Yes. Except I’m planning to do the Formic on the anticipation of a slight dearth before the flow
From the hobbyist practical point of view what I usually do is heat up the water up to no more than 40 degrees Celcius (not to boil away the essential oils) then add up the sugar according to the desired ratio and some dried thyme in the bowl (no more than a 1/2 teaspoonful per liter Let it sit there for some time with the lids closed. When it cools down it is time to feed it to the bees. This is the most practical way to distribute thymol in the hive.
I have a queen that’s too old but been treated with Formic pro for 3 years and went into winter strong.
Ian have you ever thought of using oxalic vapor around 21 days after you make your nucs? the brood you used for nucs should have hatched and the new queen shouldn't have much capped brood at that time. Just a thought.
Good suggestion SSmith. I do this with nucs, splits, swarms, requeens, basically any opportunity to hit them when they are broodless, uncapped or nearly so. Number of days depends on the scenario of course. With caught swarms, it's within 7 days or soon thereafter.
Is it possible to do test groups of say 20 or so hives on different treatments to see which of the most promising
.say two works best. Also keep a note. Pad to see where the mite bombs turn up maybe some edge part hives have to get adjustments to treatments to get mites under control . If there is some areas that are habitually bad . Use diplomatic skills you have to help those in need to get control . A part day teaching will save gray hair and not pull out. What you have . Just a thought not fun flying with out a net stay safe
Hi Ian, search for: "Summer brood interruption as integrated management strategy for effective Varroa control in Europe"
Should also work outside of europe.
have you little or no experience with formic? MAQS and PRO are expensive. i find one pad on a single in spring does well enough to get me to summer dearth, but apistan AND apivar let me down this year. lots of mites left yet when i hit them with OAV in november. looking at thymol for summer this year. i play with this sheet a lot also.
No brooding during winter, meaning no mites being raised during winter. If you treat in the fall (not talking about using OAV either), logically, there is no need to treat early spring. Formic's best use would be in late spring when you are raising your own queens, no problem to requeen if one is lost, also you have nucs at that time to drop in the colony that lost its queen during formic treatment. Now use apivar in late fall after the summer field bees are gone, usually mid-September here in NS. Now you don't have to use OAV, and there is no need to treat the bees in April coming out of the shed(mites were not raised over winter). Formic kills mites in the sealed brood which a colony is full of in the spring, cells are being capped constantly, lots of places to hide, unlike fall there is less and less places to hide, apivar is a better treatment in fall killing mites on the bees where there is less brood to hide than compared to spring.
Is the quality or amounts listed correct. Are the strips of good quality.
for the formic Pro, I fidn the one pad method easier on the Queens. Lterally only have 2 hives, one year experience. But I lost one Queen when I did the two pad treatment, especially in the middle of summer when its very hot in Ontario. I did the one pad treatment in the fall, and came out successful. and the mite drop was just as effective.
So 1 pad for 10 days followed up with a 2nd? Something we've had pretty darn good luck with.
@@MinnesotaBeekeeper Yep exactly! It means you are in the hive twice, but I have found it effective. I will be doing the same this spring with the formic pro as thats what I have on had, and apivar is sold out everywhere I have looked locally,. I also used the OAV treatment in the fall, 4 rounds. So I am hoping everything is good!
Ian when does your nectar flow start and end. In my area the 1st "part" of April I wouldn't want Apivar on the colonies beause there might be a flow start up or I may need to try and get supers drawn. I am seriously thinking about trying extended release OA. What are you thoughts on that?
My flow is June July
At what point are you pulling your suppers? SML BEEs / SWVA
I give my bees 4 grams of Oxalic acid mid Jan or Feb. when Temperatures hit 55 F or above and inspector found zero mites in my hives June 7 th.
can you over treat? is there a risk?
Would you be using the full two pads treatment of Formic or single pads twice?
That’s a question along with a number of questions that I need to figure out
My FLIR attachment to my phone allows me to store the picture. By standing at the same distance all the time, I can then take a 6 inch ruler and measure the length and height of the heat source. Comparing picture to picture.
Hello Ian! Do you use any application to record work in your apiaries?
RUclips lol
You stated that you "hate" oxalic acid vaporization treatment but did not say why. What do you have against OAV? There is now a self-contained, battery-powered unit that gives you the freedom to move through all your apiaries (uses a Dewalt power pack). What other reasons do you have not to like it? Thx.
Variability of the treatment and harshness to health
I used Apivar on my 40 colonies and at the end of treatment I had more mites in my soap washes. Apivar does not work at all. Two years in a row now.
what is the theoretical residual chemical load in the product from this aggressive treatment plan Ian? Are you in the bee business or the honey business or both? I ache not knowing if the product is contaminated by these means...
These products fall outside box placement. Most of which are organic acids
The Glycerin we found doesn't knock the mites down but rather keeps the mites from growing much....
Extended release OAV is very promising... REALLY hope it gets authorized in Canada
I know there are very brilliant people such as Randy Oliver working on extended release OA. The weakness of the OA only staying in the hive 24 hours in my opinion is also it’s strength. The mites have not been able to build up a resistance to it. If we start leaving OA that stays in the hive over long periods of time, my worry is they will adapt and build of resistance just like they have other treatments that stay in the hive a long time. Then we could possibly lose OA as an effective treatment.
@@hankbaker1614 OADe lasts 2-5 weeks . . .
@@hankbaker1614 - it does seem that the converse could come true - Vapor is not in the colony very long at all, thus limiting systemic or prolonged exposure. OADe has a much much higher likelihood of biologically influencing an adaptation that would encourage resistance from the Varroa. So then we have two issues to tackle, and instead of just Amitraz having limitations, one will be dealing with OADe limitations..and then hamstringing themselves with OAV as a result.
The issue I have had with formic is the temperature. While I have killed queens with it. It was because of the temperature. I used it in October with no queen issue
To shore up your queen thoughts, I consider it a good thing when I lose queens to formic. I want stock that can tolerate the treatments I need to use at this time. Second I understand why you are using lower efficacy numbers, kinda like rounding up to see what things cost and being pleasantly surprised rather than sticker shock. BUT, if it were me I'd plug in my conservative numbers and target numbers to give yourself a range. If you treat with formic and get conservative efficacy you have a plan for that, of you treat and get excellent efficacy, well you have a plan for that too.
Not sure the application of Thymol, but Thymovar requires 2 treatments 3-4 weeks each. And I believe it has temperature restrictions so a late cool fall application might be just wasting the product.
How about to simply use to shut the brood down?
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog Ok. Again don't know Thymol so hopefully it's cheap to apply. Thymovar runs about $50 a pack to treat 5 hives. Doing a Google search and look like Thymol is also very expensive. We had someone in our area a couple years ago looking to purchase Thymol crystals. Not sure if he got any or if he used it.
Can you not use acid in fall and winter with apivar? Then acid again before laying starts
hello ian! I wish you continued success. My area is very similar to yours. I wonder which bee breed you are working with. What is the breed of bees? thanks.
Carniolan
Bonjour, I am struggling to find the video I saw where the impact of treatments was measured on a temperature graph. Before the treatment the temperature line is very regular : but after treatment the readings are erratic for days. The least intrusive was OAV, as measured by the temperature steadying within a day !
If somebody can source this video for me I would like to study it again. Important to have a scientific based knowledge that measures not only the mite drop, but also the disturbance to the colony.
Maybe it was a Broodminder video or some other manufacturer ??
I guess I look at it a bit differently. Those mite bombs eliminate the bees that do not handle mites well at all. I use splits/brood breaks during the active season, 2 oxalic acid vaps in the fall and I do thymolize my fall syrup. Beyond that if winter does not kill the queen (and usually cluster) that failed to control mites then I do. And replace her with a queen from a better line in the spring that are dealing with varroa counts. If I frequently or constantly battle/treat varroa for the bees without challenging and eliminating the breeding stock that is not dealing with them then I am just breeding an inferior line of bees.
I did have a summer 4yrs ago where varroa numbers went thru the roof. I treated with hopguard 2 then. I really can not say why varroa went bee-serk other than environmental conditions favored them and perhaps I just was not as far along in my selective breeding.
I know local keepers that have not treated in years and years. They selected strongly at the expense of other desirable traits for VSH. Then they worked to return those lost traits back into the bees without sacrificing VSH.
I still see the occasional hive that dies over winter due to tracheal mites and how many generations of bees were raised by better and more experienced keepers than I that became my foundation stock? But we do not think twice about tracheal mites anymore.
It's a balancing act of selecting excellent breeding queens and chosing adequate and appropriate varroa treats for sure. I guess I just would rather go with breeding than agonize over treats through out the season.
All that said I am ever mindful of changing environmental conditions, treatments and how others are using them and numbers of failing colonies especially those that dewindle over winter here.
One last note - my hives tend to have psuedoscorpions present and I see them frequently until I treat. So mites are mites. Kill varroa and your killing the free help that feed on them. Just my 2 cents.
Down here, we do OAV every 4-5 days in alignment with the varroa reproductive cycle, doing 5 treatments to cover a full brood cycle. In this way, almost every mite gets exposed at some point, either directly or residually.
The Ed Luttman vapo trials Randy Oliver published several years ago demonstrated that the best vapo treatment method was to treat 7 times at 2 day intervals to kill every mite emerging from the capped brood.
consider shaking out 4 pounds of bees and making your own packages. when you place them in the new boxes treat with vapor then add the queen 6 hours later. those new colonies should be near zero mites. place the new colonies in separate yards. treat the remaining colonies as per your plan. this would be replicating a true swarming. yes it is lot of work but may give you less mite problems
Randy Oliver prescribes rotation of mite treatment. Using just two types and repeating Apivar is not following Randys method. Switch in Thymol and/or Formic Acid based treatments with AOV.
When fighting mites don't: Left Jab, Left Jab, Left Jab, Left Jab
You want some: Left Jab, Right Hook, Upper cut, round house kick.
That’s easy for a California beekeeper to say, more time allowed to fix the issues . We are tight and restricted
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog you might have to learn on nuc harder in the future.
I really like the yearly plan for mite control, so since this all seems to one big experiment... IF I have any bees left this spring, after the apivar disaster (dawn wash=55 mites on 105 bees), I am going to go to OAV monthly maybe even more often, depending on my mite counts. I can't spend a lot of money on a treatment that is failing, whether it is mite resistance or poor manufacturing, after 2 years of this product failing, I'm not going to trust it again.
Hey Ian,
hello from Serbia. This will sound harsh, but it's fair: North America is the only place in the world in which there are speakers who teach beekeepers how to lose only 30% (?!) of the colonies through the winter. It's ridiculous, frankly and honestly. I'll give you a couple of pieces of advice and, hopefully, you won't be mad at me:
1. Nobody treats for varroa during the Spring outside the NA. Forget about varroa in April. Let your bees build up freely, think about it in late July and August. You might want to start the fight with OA sheets earlier, but only that is alright for bees
2. Start treating during the last big honey crop, or immediately after you take the honey away. You can use OA sheets, Thymol or Apivar (beware, Thymol can cause robbing). You can also remove the queens, you might even get more honey that way
3. Formic acid can't be used above 25 degrees Celsius. It can be used in September in my area (night 10-20, day 15-28). Or you can do daily treatments, but that's a terrible plan for 1000 hives
4. Think about removing the queens before or during your last honey crop, so you hit varroa outside the brood 20 days later. It's labor-intensive but extremely efficient and cheap (one OA vapor will do the job once your colonies are broodless)
I'm nowhere near your beekeeping level (I've got 90 colonies), but I never lose bees due to issues with varroa. My winter survival rate is 95-100%. Good luck with the planning!
I agree to a point, without the early treatment I’ve consistently fell into mid summer varroa related deaths. I’ve missed crops and by that time of year, the colonies can’t be recovered
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog Agreed, some colonies will struggle in August. This is why I start the treatments in late July (extended-release using oA, Amitraz, or Thymol), and continue during September (Amitraz, Thymol, FA, or OA vapor), ending with OA vapor/dribble during November.
over use of any one control method will only select mites that are tolerant to that method of control
How do you plan on treating with formic acid when there's a flow and you have supers on?
Permitted treatment
@@larrytornetta9764 ok, but how do you do this? Is it the "Swedish dish towel" method?
@@MatsAndersson look up Formic pro or mite away quick strips
I do not think of Formic Acid killing the queens. I feel wether it's formic acid shutting down the queen, pollen dearth, indoor winter storage, etc. Older queens have a tougher time restarting brood laying. Therefore younger well mated queens survive all these better. In my experience I can keep bees alive with formic acid, but to use multiple treatments in spring like the "meat pads" it is very hard to build the big hives we need on the prairies for the end of June. Formic Pro helps but you could not make me put two strips on a hive from my previous experience.
When the US has large operations storing hives inside during the winter with high CO2 levels and moving to a densely populated bee area like the Central Valley and not needing to use a mite treatment until June to have healthy strong colonies I almost wonder why is their any discussion on mite treatments. Big capital cost and newer management (maybe not as proven) practices. But sounds like the future to me.
Yes indeed, but they still use magic . Co2 is cutting edge , I need more guidance on that before I can adopt . But I definitely agree
Maybe do a quarter or half the bees with the new program to see how it reacts or to see any issues with it that way you are not jeopardizing your whole operation
Problem is I’ll be jeopardizing the other half too, for not rotating treatments
Formic is going to need space. You'll want to use it and be done before you shrink the hives to single deep brood boxes, otherwise it'll be super swarm season.
Swarm? Do you mean absconding?
Is that graph available by chance?
On scientificbeekeeping.com
Damned mites! So much expense and effort to thwart their destruction which causes a direct hit to the bottom link on both sides. If only we could protect our stock from threats like this.
Wondering since you overwinter inside a building, could you not flood the room with oxalic acid shortly after all the bees are assembled. This should allow you to start the year at zero of close.
My concern is that OA extended release is going to create a scenario in which the mites have the opportunity to build resistance to OA. Maybe there is some scientific explanation why mites would not build up a resistance to OA that I’m not aware. The very fact that OAV currently remains in the hive a short time is it’s weakness but also can be it’s strength. Mites currently have not built up resistance to OA. If we leave OA extended release in hives for long periods of time and also at low levels my concern is we could lose, over time OAV as an effective treatment. Seems like other treatments which stay in the hive longer, the mites have built up a resistance. I use OAV and brood breaks. Would hate to lose OAV as an effective tool. I just wonder if we had OA extended release available for everyone to use today how long it would be before the mites had resistance to OA and then OAV would not be an available tool any longer.
I don't think we have ever seen a study showing mites developing resistance to any acid oxalic formic.
Possibly, but the saw blade dosent dull without use. And the wood will not get cut without using the saw blade ,
Soo it is what it is
@@MinnesotaBeekeeper You are correct. Oxalic has been in use worldwide for nearly 30 years without any evidence of resistance.
Have you tried drone frames ,you could use it during honey production.
With 1,500 hives?
Randy Olivers strategy is over complicated. Try a hive design that has 1. Top of brood bee entry, .........to form a "bucket" of humid (not wet) air in the brood chamber. Varroa do not like humid. Reason unknown. 2. Try a high level of insulation in the external envelope. This will allow the bees to maintain a high brood temperature which allows a quicker pupation period which in turn reduces the maturation time available for the varroa to mature in the cells. The varroa numbers will fall to below sustainable.
Ian
by doing splits and taking away brut from your colonies, you reduce the mite load.
Formalic works best when the bees are kept in one super. You need good gas pressure of formailc to reach into the capped brut.
The more supers are on the colonies, the less gas pressure you got.
On the other hand the best time to do formalic is after doing splits, or removing a significant amount of brut of your production colonies.
This way you can keep the amount of formailc lower, then for a full box of brut.
The more brut is in those colonies, the more mites are in there.
Hence you will need higher formalic gas pressure, wich might kill your queens.
So my resume is:
Do splits
Keep the colonies tight (swarm danger zone)
And treat with a low load of formailc.
You really needs to be carefull with formic acid in the summer, if the temperature is to high, you risk killing the queen and the bees, because the evaporation is to high. the temperature should be between 12-25 celsius, is it higher then that, you risk killing your bees, lower it has minimum effect. I do agree with the extended relese in the spring, i would skip the formic treatment, but if needed give them a extended treatment in june again. I have treatet mine with extended, in early spring, thymol right after the last honey harvest. and a oxalic drip in the winter when it is broodteless. im experimenting with extended release as a winter treatment in 50% of my hives this year, and comparing the results with the others. I dont se the problems with thymol as you do
Why do you hate the vapor so much what am I missing?
The extreme variability and harshness to personal health
Looks good on paper 🤣
LOL
Playing with fire by taking out that apivar treatment
Bought it today lol
A lot of work to avoid the vapor. Suit up properly with the proper protocols and gas the shed
You could always vent the vapor and bring in fresh air for yourself
The temperature dependent treatments and the unreliability of efficiency make for a management headache. 🤯
You need to talk to Phil.
I noticed you were using the wrong "colony type" in the excel spread sheet. I believe you should switch it from "d" to "b" for our northern climate. It will function a far bit different.
I don't see need to treat in the april, bees have a lot of brood and varroa mite can't affect to the colony....brood removal and making new colonies could be the tool in that time to control mite and also making new queen bee...the second treatment wit formic acid during honey crop is ok and it buy time ....the third treatment is crucial to the success and have to be done with as much as possible care....not to late which is the most important...and the most beekeepers make that mistake....bees need time to prepare for the winter...give them that time and they will do all else...final treatment have to be during broodless time and in situation when bees stay in the hive...this model works for me very well...do not bother with potential losing queen bees due to treatment because warroa mite will kill whole colony for sure.
Beside brood the OA effinciency is only 50%. Last Summer made I a Test. Over seven week once a week made I sublimation. At the beggining there were 13 (alcohol wash) mite and the end were 6. I think your effinciency degree i very optimistic...sorry for my english.
The count of 6 mites at the end of your 7 week treatment is still way too hive. The Randy Oliver ABJ article published several years ago featured the results Ed Luttman achieved in his Florida based colonies. He had to do vaporizations on 2 day intervals (dropping the mite count to zero) and when you do that 7 times in a row, you kill all the mites emerging from the capped brood (up to 14 days on drone brood) present on the first day of vaporizing.
@@R_Brickner After last harvest( middle of July. Hungary) made I total brood removal. I vaporizing 2 times (2nd and 7th day after that). With this treatment I killing 95-99% of mite. End of September I caging the Queen. 21st and 25th day I vaporizing ( 95-99%), then I let the Queen free. This is 4 treatment. This is my protocoll. With brood the vaporizing not enough efficient for me. Every 2 days vaporizing, in my opinion, is not good for Queen ( 2g/treatment 7th times 14gramm OA) but! I have only 50-60 hives.( From 2016 I only do vaporizing againts mite. Sorry for my english! )
I periodically brainstorm ways you could benefit from data mining and collection and I'm just not kniwlegible enough. It seems like a total no Brainer that maybe with a few high res cameras at your yards and a few raspberry pis some grad students at the local university could build staggeringly useful data from your ooeration.
Sounds like a lot of time and money. It really sucks that we have to put all these chemicals on our bees. You can refrigerate your shed and do a brood break right after honey flow and then oxalic treatments…. Same problem time and money. But maybe less chemicals.
And work
If only we had a bee that could suppress mite reproduction...the chems would be less of a burden and require less frequent use?! 😅
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog lots of it
I know you are a commercial guy. I don't remember hearing you discuss Formic acid in the past. I'm just a side liner. Formic has done bad things to my queens in the past. killed many queens and stunted egg production on those where it didn't kill the queens. I feel I used it correctly during low temperatures. I'm not a fan. I have since decided to move on from formic. Just sayin.
I hear ya
Is this sheet something you would share or let me know where i might find it? I like the logic, if you stop the brooding would the OA still be based on 80% effective?
Scientificbeekeeping.com
It’s under simulated models
I’m not sure. I’m not finding enough consistency with OAV to determine higher expectations
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog agreed as your sample group is huge that provides a wide number of variables, using it after something like Formic with a brood break (might possibly) provide a much higher mite kill than previous samples. The trick is finding something that will provide the required mite kill over as large number of variables like time and temperature, without sacrificing the winter colony density and ensure the survival rate stays at 90% plus. It would be nice if there was a product that could be used in/on the cluster throughout the winter where the complete cluster could be treated over a slow release like 5 months.
My thoughts exactly.
I will catch you on a chat sometime to brainstorm into a few specifics that might be interesting