The Hardest Nightmare Mission... - Legacy of the Void: Nightmare Difficulty - 07
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
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We’re ramping up now that we’re approaching the ulnar missions
Hybrid reavers and behemoths aren’t the only ones with upgrades
Hybrid destroyers have a few (though they’re kinda bundled together for simplicity)
They have extra attack range (grant noticed that the range showed up as upgraded), graviton prison, and separation (the hallucination-like ability). The hallucinations don’t deal damage or cast spells, and they die when their caster dies.
This mission is where they really shine. If you’re going heavy on static def, that is.
We also have a new boi, hybrid harvester
It’s a nasty combo of void ray, Oracle, mutalisk, devourer. It’s agile, reduces the armor of things it attack, and heals its shields by attacking.
It’s THE harassment hybrid, while also being able to support other units. Their upgrade is the structure stasis ability which plays even more into that role.
Last Stand
Enemy gains upgrades (hilariously they don’t get them in the base mission)
Zenith Stones have more defenders
Slightly fewer hybrid, more zerg more frequently
I didn’t intend this mission to be done with so much static def tbh. Having a standing army is pretty important, not only vs the hybrid siege, but also just killing stuff quickly. Things spiral out of control when hybrid and ultras and hydras layer over eachother, and static def can only deal so much dps.
Thanks for the work as usual. Can’t wait to have time to play this! (Q4 planning, please end.)
Big fan so far , looking forward to scream at my computer in frustration as I continuously lose the mission . Kinda hoping my favorite unit doesn’t get ruined . All hail the dark archon
Love this and all the work you have done! Would be awesome to have a nova cops nightmare eventually too ;)
I was wondering if a couple units to snipe the Overseers wouldn't have done the trick.
you sure you didn't overtune it? Haha :P good times.
I want to give some stats for cannons and monoliths because, as a Karax Co-op player, once you reach a critical mass of static defense adding more monoliths is almost always better than adding more cannons.
TLDR: DPS per mineral and per square are 34% and 51% better respectively for one cannon compared to one monolith, but adding monoliths overtakes adding cannons in marginal DPS at non-melee range after the first or second row of cannons. And DPS vs. 9 range (seige hybrids & guardians) is 33 and 133-167 respectively for 1 and 2 rows of cannons with monoliths behind.
pulling from liquipidia, a cannon does 20 damage every 1.25 seconds, coming out to 22.4 DPS. that's about 6.7 minerals per DPS, and with perfect sim city 5.6 DPS per square
a monolith does 100 damage every 3 seconds for 33.3 DPS. that's about 9 minerals per DPS and 3.7 DPS per square.
on paper, the monolith seems pretty bad, and in small numbers, it is, which is probably why Grant hates them. In actual practice, the canon's range makes having more than one line deep generally not worthwhile because cannons have 7 range and monoliths have 13.
Lets say you have a unit approaching perpendicular to a grid of cannons.
at 4 range, (roach or adept), 10-12 cannons can shoot back for 224-269 DPS, 6-7 in the first line, and 4-5 in the second line
at 5 range (marine or unupgraded hydra), 6-7 cannons can shoot back for 134-156.8 DPS, 5-6 in the first line and 1 in the second.
at 6 range (stalkers, marauders, or upgraded hydra), 4-5 cannons can shoot back in the first line for 90-112 DPS.
at 7 range only the cannon it's attacking can shoot back for 22.4 DPS.
if Instead we have one line of cannons with 2 lines of monoliths behind them:
at 4 range, 6-7 cannons and 13-15 monoliths can shoot back for 567-656 DPS, 8-9 in the first line and 5-6 in the second
at 5 range, 6-7 cannons and 12-14 monoliths can shoot back for 534-623 DPS, 8-9 in the first line and 4-5 in the second.
at 6 range, 4-5 cannons, and 12-14 monoliths can shoot back for 489-578 DPS, 8-9 in the first line and 4-5 in the second line
at 7 range, 1 cannon, and 6-7 monoliths can shoot back for 222-255 DPS, 5-6 in the first line and 1 in the second line
at 9 range (those hybrid and gaurdians), 4-5 monoliths can shoot back from the first line for 133-167 DPS.
if instead, you built 2 rows of cannons with 2 rows of monoliths behind them:
at 4 range, 10-12 cannons and 12-14 (8-9 + 4-5) monoliths can shoot back for 623-735 DPS
at 5 range 6-7 cannons and 6-7 (5-6 + 1) monoliths can shoot back for 334-390 DPS
at 6 range 4-5 cannons and 5-6 (4-5 + 1) monoliths can shoot back for 256-312 DPS
at 7 range 1 cannon and 4-5 (4-5 + 0) monoliths can shoot back for 156-189 DPS
at 9 range, 1 monolith can shoot back for 33.3 DPS
in actual play, the DPS from monoliths at short ranges is likely to be a bit lower because you run out of space to make the line that long, but the theory is still nice for comparison's sake.
In conclusion, assuming 2 rows of monoliths and an infinitely long line, unless the enemies are evenly spread along the defensive line, 3 rows of cannons is only the best against melee enemies, 2 rows is only the best against enemies with a range of 4 or less, and 1 row is best against anything with more than 4 range and the only thing that can put decent DPS on guardians and the siege hybrid. In real play, 2 rows of cannons is probably still better than 1 against 5 range, but not 6. Grant kept building 2-3 rows of cannons with batteries between the cannons and the monoliths, so not optimal, especially against the 9-range siege hybrid that kept killing everything. It's also worth noting on this particular mission that there is a lot of high-ground space on either side of the ramps, especially the front one, most of which cannons can't hit the ramps from, but monoliths can.
DT “*dies*”
Also DT: Wanna see me doing this again?
"Hi, This is Tempy Knoxville, welcome to Jackass!"
To be fair Vorazun's line about never seeing that many Zerg is legit - she NEVER was on Aiur during SC1 events and during SC:BW it was her mother who was in charge of Shakuras' defence and it arguably was way way waaay less intense compared to Overmind's invasion on Aiur primarily because it was dead by this point and Zerg were scattered in lesser broods controlled by Cerebrates.
I think grant’s gripe is with artanis’s response, rather than vorazun’s question.
@@therealrhyme5319I'd agree. Even if Amon and the Hybrid make it bad, Razhagal faced the might of the Overmind /and/ the Queen of Blades /AND/ Overmind 2.0 UED Edition.
Mama saw so many zerg they'd need to invent a new number.
@@danpitzer765yeah its so weak. I am sure there were more than 1b zerg back then
It's not like Vorazun is 10 years old or something, more like some hundred. Also, from a warrior clan to boot. Wouldn't Vorazun have been participating in her mothers wars or at least looked from her mother's side? Vorazun might not have been important enough to be named at the time but isn't it kinda crazy to think she did not know at all what was happening during a planet scale invasion of her homeworld? I don't know, this line doesn't make sense to me.
@@Junglej0hn She could've probably never sat in an ship in orbit and see ALL the waves of Zerg. Probably stayed on Shakuras the entire time. She likely has the On Grounds perspective, from when Zerg got onto Shakuras, never quite understood the scale of the Zerg threat like the leaders and generals, the top brass, were seeing. Kind of like how Alarak wounders how the Templar lose to the Zerg. Yeah, there's a lot of them, but they die so easily. How do you let them kill you? That kind of deal.
Damn I wonder if grant got to the meeting in time lmao
You know what? It can be a good QoL change if both Solar Lance and Orbital Strike did an extra 0.1 damage to overcome the Zerg on-tick regeneration.
It’s a conscious decision to not let orbital kill overseers in 2 shots, and not let solar lance kill guardians.
@@therealrhyme5319 another idea. What's your opinion on keeping Solar at 200 damage but making it fire only one Lance?
I'm not Rhyme, but I think it would overlap with Purifier beam a bit, thematically@@PeterZaitcev
@@PeterZaitcev That would be worse against light(down to 200 from 300) and only marginally stronger against armored(up to 200 from 150). Solar Lance being the only top bar ability that has a good area I think it would be a downgrade.
@@lagg1e That would allow killing targets with exactly 200 health. Overseers ang Guardians primarily. No other SoA ability can handle this normally. Rhyme said above that it's intentional to not allow Orbital 2-shot them, and the Solar in its current form can't kill them at all.
OK, we might never get Grant's real nightmare, a timed defense mission where the opponent spawns trains with random-generated attack wave composition but this is as close as we can get.
Well, there's going to be another Twitch Trolls Grant for LotV, isn't there?
finally the hybrid feels like a hybrid taking on the best traits and abilities of the two species they are made from
I think Monoliths should just have AI that prefers targets with more hp, It would remove the biggest problem they have without needing to change stats. They may have range and damage but you have to weigh that against immobility, high cost, 3x3 space, overkill, no upgrades, charge up, no aoe, and issues retargeting small units.
I believe that the... I want to say Real Scale? Mod made it so they only target Massive, or prioritize massive. Can't remember which
I’ve seen a suggestion to just have them fire automatically, then have the 3 second cooldown so that they don’t get stuck retargeting on smaller creatures
Either of these would be good. I’m surprised nightmare didn’t do it considering the other nightmare improvements
He said he wants you to micro your static defense when I brought it up.
Hilarious.
@@0verZealous it might be a little bit too op, imagine attacking protoss and half your army gets vaporised instantly
Oh "the hardest Nightmare mission". That's a really optimistic title considering Rak'shir, the Host and Essence of Eternity are still to come.
I could see Purification turning into a total stain too, if the attack waves aimed at the core are packing hybrid.
@@danpitzer765They're packing Hybrid Behemoths in the base game eventually. So expect them to be really nasty.
The struggle to keep the temple from getting destroyed for the last thousands of zergs absolutely nails the vibe from the cutscene!
I think it would be nice if you could manually activate the Avenger's Emergency Recall. You know, for emergencies. You can already achieve something similar by walking them into an enemy base, but being able to do it on command would lend the Avenger an extra tiny bit of flexibility that I think would be pretty fun.
Seppuku DTs to recall, not sure if having them kill each other triggers the recall in the Nightmare difficulty mod, but in regular LoV I'm pretty sure it triggers from any fatal damage (assuming it's off CD), even from friendlies (one of them will probably end up left behind, unless you get really lucky with the last two doing an anime double knockout on the same game-tick).
@@Flamewarden_Honoushugoshin I know, but in an emergency situation where you would be willing to give up their recall just to get them home ASAP, a single button activation would be way cleaner
Basically suicide button, seems actually fun and cool
plz no suicide button... doing the HotS Nightmare right now and the final Kaldir mission was annoying AF with the Ursadon having a suicide button when its pretty much needed to get through the final section, also being on the same hotkey as spawn zergling didnt help....@@ИльяХерунцев
Every night I check for one of these bad boys to drop
Every night they drop i see them and realize ive somehow stayed up to 3am on accident again
Every morning I check for one of these videos to drop
rhyme and grant, you two are freaking MVPS for these nightmare mods. Can't wait to get my hands on LOTV nightmare. I've played the first 2 so much I can't even remember what it's like non nightmare. Can't wait to try the junker mod once i finally finish tactical arsenal too.
It would be cool if the top bar also had a little spot to show how many kills the spear of adun has done
I wonder if instead of massing so many cannons, it would've been better to make a big batch of Nexuses making up walls. A Nexus costs 400 minerals (compared to 450 for 3 cannons), has 1500/1500 HP compared to cannon's 300/300 (so 5 times as much), and with Nexus Overload they will all fire at incoming targets. It also seems to have a really high range. Back them up with shield batteries and Monolithes, and a bunch of shield Immortals and Dragoons for gas investment. I also think Warp In Reinforcements would've been great here so you could have more units over less time.
I've definitely done it like that in the vanilla difficulties but I believe the dps of Nexus spam will just not be enough for this. Also iirc shield batteries in campaign can only target units and photon cannons so you cant protect a nexus with a dozen batteries behind it.
@@DschonathanI believe it auto targets the overcharged nexus as it was in this video
@@DschonathanNo, they work on any protoss unit/structure. Anything with a shield, hence the name.
“That’s a pipe dream and I’m a plumber.” This channel is now MegaMarioMatches.
i think Artanis saying that it is a far greater threat refers to also them being severed from the Khala, on the verge on extinction and a god fighting them. But i don't know
Grant: barely managing to reach 1 billion
Karax: Good, now if you could hold on just a while longer!
If you place shield batteries in front of the static defense, it will be more beneficial, as enemy will try to go for your static defence, not shield batteries. At least it works in other difficulty levels (don't know if it woks in Nightmare, but is worth trying).
We used to have an ad in Australia "wheres the cranny granny?" 43:05
It's good to see this guy experiencing how I felt as a shitty player when plaing this on brutal
Reavers are the abominable love child of an immortal and ultralisk
Destroyers are fleshy siege tanks with a high templar as a pilot
Harvester is just all the SC2 pain with wings
I really love the confidence of naming something "the hardest nightmare mission" so early into the campaign. :P
Thanks for uploading. Your videos are fantastic as always!
Overlord was vibrating against the temple through the cutscene as well, such a dedication
One side benefit of the monoliths is that they can range over the temple, so if a line gets broken (at the end mostly), they can help out from the other side.
Get it? *side* benefit? Get it... oh never mind.
Every fight with Hybrid Destroyer reminds me of Maar and it is scary
In case you didn't see the comment on the last video, turn the monolith's charge up at the start of its attack into a cool down that comes after it fires.
That's... actually a brilliant way to get around attacks eith long windup so they don't get lost in endless retargeting from animation's.
That's ingenious, tie the animation to the cooldown, or make the charge up play in animation stitched onto the end of the firing animation.
My god, the battering Overlord at the end. Truly these Zerg are using the full Nightmare difficulty arsenal
I think it makes perfect sense that armour doesn't apply to buildings, but shields do... Armour takes shape into account, but the shields just work on the generator (I'd guess).
About weapons, it's similar, the weapon itself gets improved... Right?^^
I'm not sure if I'm going crazy or not, but in nightmare, if he had placed the monoliths about one cannon's width closer to the ramps wouldn't they have been more effective against the destroyers? Good timestamps of what I am thinking is shown at 25:15 for his layout then 21:49 for what I'm trying to say.
I get that you can get more cannons in the area of a monolith which is more DPS for everything else. But for some reason I have it stuck in my head that in the long run you would be saving more minerals by not constantly replacing the cannons that are getting outranged by the destroyers. Which you can then funnel into an actual army. Therefore making the need for that extra line of cannons a non-issue.
I really wish that more mods made kaldarin crystal as a walid option for defence instead of cannons. Only one for now was really real scale where they just didn't shot small units and cannons were inefficient against big targets.
A few things that came to mind while watching this:
The Vorazun line about her mother's struggle definitely works here! I hope that in future mods they edit the voiceline to change it from "Is this the threat" to "Is this a joke??". It needs to be shifted because it's such an easy level and would be an amazing line for a mod similar to Mindhawk's challenge gauntlet but Protoss edition.
Another idea I thought of was that it would be SO COOL to have a mod of the campaigns but they're all balanced to the current ranked gameplay (ranked units exist, abilities are altered to be whatever Player vs Player has, etc). This would mean that there's a lot of things that don't work anymore, but allows stuff like Energizers boosting buildings!
Energizers don't exist in ladder. Balancing to Co-Op could work, but all the CoOp stuff is significantly stronger than campagin stuff, because you are fighting massive hybrid waves, super fortresses of death, and mega ultra super sayian hybrid bosses. at least in most cases, vorazoons voids are worse than campagin ones (tells you a lot about nerazime voids) so it would more just trivialise the missions than anything.
really nice Rhyme started you out with a dark shrine, I remember some run before where you used avengers here, but then were surprised when they did not come back.
16:46 Ironic! You coud'nt see the Overseer.
Lol IRL's random difficulty modifier activated!
You are a champiooooooooooooon! This is a vid to watch while listening "live and learn"
These videos always drops as soon as i wake up. I swear they give me a kick when i watch them with a cup of coffee to start my day.
9:25 Hmm, I see the Solar-lance vs zerg-counter backdoor from the no-build challenge is still open :)
I think the Hybrid destroyers have extra range coz they were ramping up from shooting the cannons and the buff is for both range and attack speed.
*Insert Simpsons meme*
The hardest Nightmare Mission SO FAR!
These DTs would have absolutely rocked Brother in Arms
I was waiting for this, thank you.
Sadly you didn't really go balls to the wall with this mission, but I understand why, because you said you don't like it that much.
However, I did tell the "guitar guy" that Nightmare is coming out and asked him to try his strat and make a new video once it's available.
The funny thing is he's actually a drummer, not a guitar player😆
Do the DTs regain the ability from hitting friendly heroic/massive? I doubt it'd be intentional, but it would be funny.
Avengers being Anti-Heroic unit is very nice touch
Thanks for the great vids grant!
Nightmare tower defense didn't disappoint. Keep on trucking!
My smooth brain think was: why not building mass nexus? Maybe there is not much space, but it have MASSIVE health pool, range and cost minerals only
So I'd most likely surround temple with nexus, build batteries in X pattern, surround batteries with monolyths, and then add cannons on top, and pretty much build as close to temple as possible
Btw do you get some kind of extra upgrade (and what does it give?) for completing bonus objective of holding out till 1.5 billion or it is just Solarite for Karax's criplling addiction?
Bonus objectives in LotV only give solarite
If you mean for nightmare, no. The point of the mid-mission extra upgrades is to incentivize grabbing bonuses early in the mission. You can’t get 1.5b early.
The hardest nightmare mission? Did Grant forget the 2 hours he spent on Domination with nightmare Zagara
I liked the real scale compromise of having the monoliths be good but only auto attack large targets
I much prefer shield batteries at the front.
It creates a wall which blocks melee trying to go for the thing that is attacking them; the cannon. Reduces their dps on yours.
If you do lose your front line because of things like banelings, you lose less dps.
And aren't batteries cheaper than cannons? Means you replace the front line more cheaply?
Nightmare Last Stand earning its keep on being the finale of the early LotV.
It seems those ranged Hybrids get +1 range for each upgrade level they get?
Ay cool there was a tool tip about the new hybrid mechanic on the loading screen too thx Rhyme
Hooray energizers.... i know they don't work on buildings in the campaign but am always happy to see them :)
I've never felt to need to rage quit on behalf of someone before.
Definitely agree on how the Avengers are. Sad that they're no longer A move only units, but more happy that they are now basically anti-hybrid units with their focus on both massive and heroic units.
And using so many cannons to win reminds me of months ago when Grant played a skirmish match using only cannons and I like it. Static defense is good, but you can never have enough static defense.
Great to see Grant succeed in this mission after doing everything else. Can't wait for Salvation where it will be this but even worse.
You wouldn't think it, but monoliths are better in the front with cannons and batteries behind them.
Thanks for holding the fort! ^^
I left a comment on the last video on this mod trying to inform people that energizers can't buff buildings. I did my part, for what little good that did I guess.
loving this series!
Changes to monolith i suggest
Remove the charge and shoot and inatead instant fire with long cooldown.
Make them target highest HP and OR Armored/nerf their damage and make them anti armor with armor priority
50m zerg left ... 20 minutes of a vid left :D
Maybe the avengers need one of the version of the hardened shield to greater emphasize their anti-massive/anti-heroic role.
Now this is a true nightmare "timed" mission 😂
The Hardest Nightmare Mission(yet)
I'm pretty sure actually building an army would be better, instead of almost only spamming cannons with minerals and energizers with gas. Zealots would eat lings for breakfast, immortals would deal with ultras and dragoons would support, with some energizers for the buffs and it would likely do MUCH better than cannons. And it's mobile so you can move it and split it to handle the ever-changing crisis.
It's always funny watching different youtubers play campaigns, because Grant falls back on his singleplayer strats (static defense for example) while someone like Harstem and UpATree can't let go of their multiplayer instincts (like doing things as fast as they can, even when they can take their time - watch them try to cheese the overmind tendrils for 5 hours and fail because they refuse to take it slow and steady lmao).
I hope the Mobius Hybrid from Real Scale shows up in this mod.
deploy pylon coming w a free probe would legit be good
If you think about it, the sout is actually good because one of them could kill one hundred utralisks with out sutaining any damage. To be fair I havn't thought about the nine out time limit of SC2 games but what ever.
Nice training before the Salvation
GRANTS THE BEST PLUMBER
loving the nightmare LOTV !
It's 04:06 PM here and here i am, i need to see how grant beats nightmare
You mean how Nightmare beats Grant :D
I managed to hold until 1.5b with 150 save and load. My strategy is to build a lot of Nexus at the ramp to tank so that my static defense doesn't break until 1.2b.
I wonder, if player just go here first, that would make this mission a lot easier right? so... maybe 2.2 billion is doable with that >w>
I wonder how dt walls and using annihilators / monoliths to snipe overseers and detecting hybrid would work in this… until they start sending a dozen per wave of course. 😂
Haven’t finished the video yet but I’m just assuming Rhyme wouldn’t let us do that.
999.4, so close yet so far
overseers?
buffing the range
OH BOY OH BOY OH BOY!! I was excited for this mission, haha.
You know, is there a mod that has this mission for Terran? I wanna try it with Terrans lol
those hybrid are RIDICULOUS lol. Also, honestly, too much of SC2 invalidates/ignores SC1 and I hate it.
There is a race-swapped mod, yes. Called something like "Legacy of the Void Terran Version", or "Terran Edition", I don't remember. Should be in the Arcade.
Grant did do this campaign as Terran. If I recall correctly, siege tanks made this mission the easiest mission ever.
„You can unlike uncomment and unsubcribe now” Grant 2023
Meanwhile Me liking the video being subscribed and commenting.
Would a line of nexii at the tops of the ramps have been useful as blockers? Or does the ai target them down even if they can see units or defences?
Nexus overcharge gives them the same attack priority as cannons. And they are massive, so it can actually reduce HP per area, although they aren't as fucked by splash.
got a feeling that immortals would have helped a lot with survivability as they have hardened shield and with shield batteries could help the hard hitting end game.
No hardened shield in LOTV, just their 100 or 200 barrier that's tied to a cooldown. Makes them kinda worse than cheap stuff against a lot of hard-hitters due to taking very little overkill damage.
Annihilator would be more likely to help, but your micro would need to be amazing to shadow cannon the right targets fast enough.
@@danpitzer765 they don't recharge fast enough
Finally! The temple!
So what does this version of the Monolith even do? is it the exact same with some value tweaks to damage or range or something or does it get a worse version of the Firebat treatment and get some extra pizzazz to not make it amazing but at least more interesting?
Why didn't Grant build mass Monoliths? Aren't they much stronger than cannons?
Grant will you ever finish the UPL Wings of Liberty Nightmare edition?
24:08 Yes, totally agree! Worst mission in Starcraft 2. I hate it!
- It is tedious to watch because of how monotonous it is, only one strategy: dt's go to the xeniths, build canons-batteries everywhere, maybe block with 2 Nexus. Done
- It is awful to play because of how attention demands are spamming everywhere
- Lack of unit options (no stargate) makes it even worse than In Utter Darkness, which is also boring to watch
This one, Utter Darkness and Ghost of a Chance are the worst for me.
cannons were a mistake lol
I was listening as I dozed, so I apologize if I missed it, but why no nexus overcharge up front to tank?
Was the solar lance (turbo) cheese fixed in this mod? Didn't look like it. 🤔
Edit: Would have been amazing to see the counter modded to display Zerg numbers that are actually terrifying.
Wish thoes power up hybrids where in the immortal mission too
46:26 ultralisks go OM NOM NOM NOM
Hardest, but it's only your 8th game Grant
Might be a silly question, but why not go max worker all the time?
Was nexus overcharge nerfed? Typically the best strat for this mission is to just build 2 nexi at each entrance supported by cannons and batteries.
StarCraft 1 introduced me to tower defense and I loved it for a time. But this mission isn’t tower defense, and it does suck.
If you have the thing that gives nexus an attack, why not build a bunch in front?
I think what makes this mission bad is that there is not many tools you can use, Salvation is like the more interesting version of this mission.
When Nightmare zealots only?