Prajnanandi here. Thanks to all of you for your enthusiastic comments. I'm hoping that we can widen the understanding of both the strengths and challenges of being neurodivergent within Triratna by having these conversations. Some of the changes that would help us would help lots of other people too, for example a quiet room can help people with hearing difficulties.
I loved hearing you talk about your experience. I find it fascinating and beautifully educational, thank you. 🙏 It's great that you are bringing this important conversation to the organisation...and to the world, actually. Some of the comments you received suggest to me that the movement might benefit from looking at this also in a wider context...of, perhaps, an expectation of 'conformity to a certain paradigm'...which, to my understanding, is anathema to a true buddhist sangha.
Thank you for making this. I'm glad that Triratna is beginning to recognise the need to adapt to autistic people, rather than expect autistic people to adapt to Triratna. I think there should always be consent before hugging or any physical contact - just say "would you like a hug?"
This is such a wonderful and hugely important conversation. Thankyou both so much, especially Prajnanandi 🙏 I look forward to your follow up conversations. I’d also love for this to be the beginning of a bigger conversation, extended to include other neurodiversity, such as ADHD.
Thank you for this Prajnanandi and Ratnaguna. Great to see the topic of neurodiversity and Dharma practice being explored in more depth and thank you for sharing your experience Prajnanandi. I'm heartened to hear you surface some of the difficulties that neurodiverse people encounter when trying to fit in with social norms, conventions and structures in Triratna as well as generally within society. I'd also echo other comments hoping for a discussion about ADHD and those with ADHD type traits. ADHD has a prevalence of about 1 in 20 (5%) in the general population, including many people in Triratna too. Those with ADHD also face significant, but different, challenges when engaging with Dharma practice, as well as retreat programmes, ordination training and social expectations. It's also important to recognise that neurodiversity cuts both ways, it brings advantages in some situations, and challenges in others. The more we can understand and support each other in our diversity, and celebrate our different strengths, the stronger the sangha becomes.
Thank you for describing our experience so well. My hope is that more Buddhist practice centers, including my own, adopt autism sensitive practices. The three jewels should be accessible to everyone.
From Dorothy...Great interview. Can't wait for more! Thank you for opening up a really helpful discussion about "expectations" at all points in our Dharma lives - particularly maybe in the Ordination Process. I am a blind person and also have difficulty with communication, imagery, myth and metaphor (does my head in) and being in noisy crowded places - ie assumptions made by non disabled and neurotypical people about practicing the Dharma. I agree there are many ways in, not the same for everyone...even everyone with the same "label". I also recognise that quite often it is the disabled or neurodiverse person that is expected to adapt. 30% of blind people are also autistic. A double whammy - or double advantage, depending on your point of view...Like everyone, I have a desire to develop my practice and join the Order but I can't be "fixed" into a box that I don't fit into.
Really interesting. I've never sought diagnosis but I have some strong autistic spectrum traits. I found the beginners course quite challenging, definitely not a neurodivergent friendly space. It put me off getting more involved. I found the "mingling" parts most difficult as I am not able to spontaneously start conversations and it made me feel awkward and not part of things (and made me not want to be there, or come back).
I had exactly the same problem, got near the end of the second intro course but just felt I couldn’t continue for the same reason. I loved meditating and having elements of Buddhism explained to me, but would prefer not to be forced to engage in discussion. I can see why they do it though, it’s to encourage involvement in the sangha.
Thank you, Prajnanandi and Ratnaguna, for this interview. Here in New Zealand I've been delighted to hear people talking about it and sending the link to eachother. I'm enjoying taking a ' back seat' (for a change!). Dharmacarin Dhiraprabha
Nonetheless I would love to be in a regular meditation kula with other Neurodivergents who pursue the Dharma, and always will. Many blessings on you all, and much Metta. The core of my practice and the great gift of the Movement. xxx
Thank you so much for this open and helpful conversation. As someone with a lifetime teaching children and young people with learning difficulties and many on the autistic spectrum I have learnt a great deal more hearing you talk today. Your explanation, Prajnanandi, of how the Mahayana imagery, metaphor and symbolism can't work for you was a lightbulb moment for me. And how pujas and the paraphernalia of shrine rooms can be unbearable. So very good to hear your descriptions of how communications and friendships work for you and how different this is from the norms of Triratna 'spiritual friendship'
Thanks for your comment Robin. I'm hoping that many people will watch this interview (and the ones to follow) and so start thinking about their local Centre and how they can make it easier for autistics to feel more at ease at classes.
A question I would be really interested to hear answered in a future interview would be: how do you cope with a retreat? Sounds like a nightmare for an autistic person! I can't imagine spending that long around other people and information on practical arrangements like sleeping and eating is pretty scarce which would put me off in itself.
Good stuff. I'm autistic too. I'm surprised to learn that English order members are more touchy-feely than mine in California. We generally do not hug or touch people we do not know. Probably because we (the general population) have had so much discussion around consent when it comes to touch. I am not overwhelmed by the noise in the Buddhist center. But, when we break into small groups that have multiple people in the same room talking, I have to move into another room and have others join me. I don't generally have trouble starting a conversation, because I am hyper verbal. But I may start one when the other person does not want to, or have trouble with the give and take of conversation, or with small talk, or with not sounding weird. I do have problems with sensory overload, with such as high-pitched noises which are literally painful to me and bright lights. Incense was ok, until I became allergic to it. And yes, the ordination process is highly vague and strange to me. Unlike her, have thus far not been able to negotiate it. I don't agree that learning disabilities do not count as neurodiverse. I think that they can be. I do agree that personality disorders (like psychopathy) are a different thing. I have not found all order members to be as understanding of my autism as the order members she described. But we definitely have had similar experiences as her. One of them, who I have known for a long time, said that he did not think that I should be ordained unless I became able to understand what people people are thinking without being told. To me, that really does seem like telling a paraplegic that they can not be ordained unless they learn to walk. I can understand metaphors and symbols. But if people mix metaphorical speech with literal speech, or do not make it clear which they are using, I have problems. I had a lot of trouble with the visualization of the lotus in the cloud with all the people in it. Just creating a rainbow to cloud was hard. And I could not figure out which angle I was supposed to be looking at it from. At one point, I just saw the people as bugs on leaves, because I was looking at it from above. I had to simplify it a lot and get rid of only some things to make it work for me. I, too, am a Pali Cannon person, not a Mahayana text person. I enjoyed, and had a strong emotional response to, my first puja, but got bored with them quickly. I actually still enjoy the mantras. I can relate to songs of praise to deity figures. But the rest of it soon began to feel lifeless to me.
Hi Ted, thanks for your comment. I too am surprised, but in my case because it's not more 'touchy-feely' at your Centre in California. Quite a few people at the Manchester Centre, UK, hug when meeting and leaving, but I suspect a lot of people don't much like it. For me, a hand-shake feels more appropriate for people I don't know very well.
.....(continued).... from the norms of the Triratna 'spiritual friendship' ideal. I'm so pleased there will be more of these important talks and that other neurodiverse angles can be considered. Can the suggestions and guidance included at the end of the book be shared more widely with OMs leading mitra study and sangha nights, etc I wonder? I look forward to more of these important discussions. Much gratitude to you, Akasanandi
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Prajnanandi here. Thanks to all of you for your enthusiastic comments. I'm hoping that we can widen the understanding of both the strengths and challenges of being neurodivergent within Triratna by having these conversations. Some of the changes that would help us would help lots of other people too, for example a quiet room can help people with hearing difficulties.
Thanks for the video and the book, which is great. It inspired me to finally seek a diagnosis which I have been putting off for years!
I loved hearing you talk about your experience. I find it fascinating and beautifully educational, thank you. 🙏 It's great that you are bringing this important conversation to the organisation...and to the world, actually. Some of the comments you received suggest to me that the movement might benefit from looking at this also in a wider context...of, perhaps, an expectation of 'conformity to a certain paradigm'...which, to my understanding, is anathema to a true buddhist sangha.
Thank you for making this. I'm glad that Triratna is beginning to recognise the need to adapt to autistic people, rather than expect autistic people to adapt to Triratna. I think there should always be consent before hugging or any physical contact - just say "would you like a hug?"
"Socialising isn't friendship" blew my mind! Hello from the spectrum
This is such a wonderful and hugely important conversation. Thankyou both so much, especially Prajnanandi 🙏
I look forward to your follow up conversations.
I’d also love for this to be the beginning of a bigger conversation, extended to include other neurodiversity, such as ADHD.
Thank you for this Prajnanandi and Ratnaguna. Great to see the topic of neurodiversity and Dharma practice being explored in more depth and thank you for sharing your experience Prajnanandi.
I'm heartened to hear you surface some of the difficulties that neurodiverse people encounter when trying to fit in with social norms, conventions and structures in Triratna as well as generally within society.
I'd also echo other comments hoping for a discussion about ADHD and those with ADHD type traits. ADHD has a prevalence of about 1 in 20 (5%) in the general population, including many people in Triratna too. Those with ADHD also face significant, but different, challenges when engaging with Dharma practice, as well as retreat programmes, ordination training and social expectations.
It's also important to recognise that neurodiversity cuts both ways, it brings advantages in some situations, and challenges in others. The more we can understand and support each other in our diversity, and celebrate our different strengths, the stronger the sangha becomes.
Definitely agree with this...
Thank you for describing our experience so well. My hope is that more Buddhist practice centers, including my own, adopt autism sensitive practices. The three jewels should be accessible to everyone.
From Dorothy...Great interview. Can't wait for more! Thank you for opening up a really helpful discussion about "expectations" at all points in our Dharma lives - particularly maybe in the Ordination Process. I am a blind person and also have difficulty with communication, imagery, myth and metaphor (does my head in) and being in noisy crowded places - ie assumptions made by non disabled and neurotypical people about practicing the Dharma. I agree there are many ways in, not the same for everyone...even everyone with the same "label". I also recognise that quite often it is the disabled or neurodiverse person that is expected to adapt. 30% of blind people are also autistic. A double whammy - or double advantage, depending on your point of view...Like everyone, I have a desire to develop my practice and join the Order but I can't be "fixed" into a box that I don't fit into.
Excellent. Thank you Prajnanandi and Ratnaguna!
Really interesting. I've never sought diagnosis but I have some strong autistic spectrum traits. I found the beginners course quite challenging, definitely not a neurodivergent friendly space. It put me off getting more involved. I found the "mingling" parts most difficult as I am not able to spontaneously start conversations and it made me feel awkward and not part of things (and made me not want to be there, or come back).
I had exactly the same problem, got near the end of the second intro course but just felt I couldn’t continue for the same reason. I loved meditating and having elements of Buddhism explained to me, but would prefer not to be forced to engage in discussion. I can see why they do it though, it’s to encourage involvement in the sangha.
Thank you, Prajnanandi and Ratnaguna, for this interview. Here in New Zealand I've been delighted to hear people talking about it and sending the link to eachother. I'm enjoying taking a ' back seat' (for a change!). Dharmacarin Dhiraprabha
Nonetheless I would love to be in a regular meditation kula with other Neurodivergents who pursue the Dharma, and always will.
Many blessings on you all, and much Metta. The core of my practice and the great gift of the Movement. xxx
Thank you so much for this open and helpful conversation. As someone with a lifetime teaching children and young people with learning difficulties and many on the autistic spectrum I have learnt a great deal more hearing you talk today. Your explanation, Prajnanandi, of how the Mahayana imagery, metaphor and symbolism can't work for you was a lightbulb moment for me. And how pujas and the paraphernalia of shrine rooms can be unbearable. So very good to hear your descriptions of how communications and friendships work for you and how different this is from the norms of Triratna 'spiritual friendship'
I love the fact bhuddism is recognising neurodivegents difficulties xx
Hello everyone!
You can see the next conversation between Prajnanandi and Ratnaguna here: ruclips.net/video/pb--0VODJsc/видео.html
This is such a helpful conversation, thank you. It's a great resource to be able to share.
Thanks for your comment Robin. I'm hoping that many people will watch this interview (and the ones to follow) and so start thinking about their local Centre and how they can make it easier for autistics to feel more at ease at classes.
A question I would be really interested to hear answered in a future interview would be: how do you cope with a retreat? Sounds like a nightmare for an autistic person! I can't imagine spending that long around other people and information on practical arrangements like sleeping and eating is pretty scarce which would put me off in itself.
Good stuff.
I'm autistic too.
I'm surprised to learn that English order members are more touchy-feely than mine in California. We generally do not hug or touch people we do not know. Probably because we (the general population) have had so much discussion around consent when it comes to touch.
I am not overwhelmed by the noise in the Buddhist center. But, when we break into small groups that have multiple people in the same room talking, I have to move into another room and have others join me.
I don't generally have trouble starting a conversation, because I am hyper verbal. But I may start one when the other person does not want to, or have trouble with the give and take of conversation, or with small talk, or with not sounding weird.
I do have problems with sensory overload, with such as high-pitched noises which are literally painful to me and bright lights. Incense was ok, until I became allergic to it.
And yes, the ordination process is highly vague and strange to me. Unlike her, have thus far not been able to negotiate it.
I don't agree that learning disabilities do not count as neurodiverse. I think that they can be. I do agree that personality disorders (like psychopathy) are a different thing.
I have not found all order members to be as understanding of my autism as the order members she described. But we definitely have had similar experiences as her. One of them, who I have known for a long time, said that he did not think that I should be ordained unless I became able to understand what people people are thinking without being told. To me, that really does seem like telling a paraplegic that they can not be ordained unless they learn to walk.
I can understand metaphors and symbols. But if people mix metaphorical speech with literal speech, or do not make it clear which they are using, I have problems.
I had a lot of trouble with the visualization of the lotus in the cloud with all the people in it. Just creating a rainbow to cloud was hard. And I could not figure out which angle I was supposed to be looking at it from. At one point, I just saw the people as bugs on leaves, because I was looking at it from above.
I had to simplify it a lot and get rid of only some things to make it work for me.
I, too, am a Pali Cannon person, not a Mahayana text person.
I enjoyed, and had a strong emotional response to, my first puja, but got bored with them quickly. I actually still enjoy the mantras. I can relate to songs of praise to deity figures. But the rest of it soon began to feel lifeless to me.
Hi Ted, thanks for your comment. I too am surprised, but in my case because it's not more 'touchy-feely' at your Centre in California. Quite a few people at the Manchester Centre, UK, hug when meeting and leaving, but I suspect a lot of people don't much like it. For me, a hand-shake feels more appropriate for people I don't know very well.
Thanks for doing this. I found it very knteresting and helpful. Look forward to the next ones.
.....(continued).... from the norms of the Triratna 'spiritual friendship' ideal. I'm so pleased there will be more of these important talks and that other neurodiverse angles can be considered. Can the suggestions and guidance included at the end of the book be shared more widely with OMs leading mitra study and sangha nights, etc I wonder? I look forward to more of these important discussions. Much gratitude to you, Akasanandi
Great discussion -- when are the next episodes out?
Hi! You can see the next episode here😊 ruclips.net/video/pb--0VODJsc/видео.html